Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In Episode 5 we talk to Rowan & John who have their own business. Matt & Nigel talk discuss how they have managed to run their business during covid and now in a world of austerity, post covid leaning on God and listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
At the beginning of Galatians, Paul sets out his testimony as evidence of the truth of the gospel of Jesus and it's the same with us as disciples. The gospel of Jesus is true and our testimony of life is part of that evidence which illustrates that it's true. As Jesus says in Matthew Chapter 7 :16 "By their fruit you will recognise them."
So as we think about the message of Galatians in this Playmakers podcast, we're talking to real people and thinking about how the gospel of Jesus has transformed, underpinned and built the lives of men and women of God, men, and women in our community. How do they live in freedom and guard that freedom in Christ?
These are not the testimonies of people who are far away, but people who sit next to us at CCBS on Sundays and in small groups, real people who show that Jesus is Lord in their daily lives.
Hello and welcome to the Galatians Playmakers podcast. I am your host, Matt, and I'm joined by my co-host, Nigel. Nigel. Good to see you again. Hello, Matt. You, Nice to see you. You look fantastic as ever. It's been look radiant. Oh, great. It's gonna be one of those, those episodes is that we're gonna try and out do each other with compliments.
Um, it's not just us, thankfully. Um, uh, listeners, uh, we've also. A couple of guests with us in the studio today. We're joined by Rowan and John. Hello. Hello. Hi. Nice to be here. So I've just introduced you, but would you like to introduce yourselves properly? My name's Rowan Lloyd and I am really interested in people and anything to do with colors.
Wow, Okay. Yeah, I think that's the most interesting thing that we've heard from anyone, any of our guests, uh, in terms of that question. Not in terms of the. What about yourself? John, tell us about you. Hello, I'm John. Um, I dunno how to follow that answer actually. That's a quite a narrow range of things, but, uh, I'm not interested in colors, but am I interested in people?
I've gotta say yes to that . We're we're pleased to hear it. Yes. Um, uh, so we, we do have a big question, uh, for you guys. We're gonna discuss that this evening and, uh, the, the question for this episode is, how do we live in the freedom of the spirit in the face of anxiety and fear? Do you wanna unpack that a little bit for us, Nigel?
Okay. So I actually have got loads of stuff written. About that, but um, I don't feel it's the right thing to do. What I would say is, in general, one of the things Galatians talks about is legalism and it talks about freedom in the spirit. And the thing about legalism is very often it's a structure we put in place in order to help ourselves feel secure.
So when Christians live in the freedom of the spirit, that means that sometimes they just dunno what's gonna happen next. And that can engender anxiety and fear. But for all of us, uh, life is hard at times. It can be uncertain, particularly if you're running businesses right now, Life can be very uncertain and that can make us fearful and anxious.
And the temptation is to look for certainty in the way we live. However, Our certainty as Christians doesn't rest in a bunch of laws and rules. It rests in our relationship with Jesus. It rests in our faith and it rests in the spirit. So the question is how do we live in the freedom of the spirit and still face anxiety?
And fear and uncertainty and all of those things. And the reason that Rowan and John are sitting with us is that Matt, Mark and I prayed, and you two are the ones who came to mind for this episode, . And we are really pleased you're here,
. So you are both involved in business. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about your business so everyone else can hear about. Yeah.
So in, in the workplace there's so much that you're not in control of, and, Particularly in the last couple of years, what was going on in the economy? so at the beginning of the pandemic for most people, the world changed significantly and for when we were all told to go home and stay at home and isolate from other households, that meant the workplace shut immediately with no notice.
And in our situation that meant six months of work was canceled immediately. Yeah. So we were then faced with a situation of not knowing if we would ever work again, not knowing if there was going to be a comeback People didn't know what was going to happen in the pandemic, but that was certainly the reality that faced us and many other companies.
You've closed without planning and you don't know if you're ever gonna reopen. Yeah. Or if you reopen what that might look like because it might look something completely different. . . So that was a very big challenge. To us personally as well. Um, and just daily taking that back to God. And it did feel like fear.
For the first, it was a shock to many people. It was a shock and it felt like fear and daily taking it back to God and talking about it and kind of handing it over to God. I found we moved to a place. We could trust God that whatever the outcome was, he was holding us. He was going to look after us and there was a future.
We had no idea what the future might look like, but there was a future with God and there would be some kind of story. Then it's back to work. Get down to nuts and bolts. Follow government advice, do everything you possibly can that you can think of in your imagination to get work going again. Yeah.
Within the guidelines and all the health and safety and I think it was a big time of just committing and saying, Our future is in God's hands. We literally do not know. And we talked about it with the skeleton staff at work and said, It will be a miracle. If we are still trading by next Easter. And we were eventually still trading by the following Easter, and we said with our staff, This is a miracle . This is a miracle we are. That the company still exists. Yeah. And we are all employed. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it feels like a heavy burden, um, running a business because again, you don't just have your own mortgage to.
Again, I dunno if you guys can relate, but for, for me specifically, that the fact that making sure that that business stays open, that it still runs, that it's profitable or break even, I feel that that is my responsibility as a director of that business. , and you mentioned earlier fear of failure, Nigel, massive, massive fear of.
Fear. Fear of letting people down, letting the staff down. I think that's the number one thing that, that I fear about. But I, again, like, like yourselves, I'm very vocal about God in the workplace. I'm very vocal about miracles in, in the workplace, uh, as well. And you mentioned. The, the pandemic? Well, you know, our business was the same.
We ran outta money. We, we, we did run out of money and we, we were reliant on a loan being granted. Um, In order for our business to, to, to survive. And we were turned down for a loan three times. And I remember I was, I was in my, my home office, um, doing database cleansing cuz that's all I could do. Um, and I, I was praying to God in floods of tears saying, God, you know, you've said so many times that you are holding fast to me that you're not gonna let me go to not fear and.
We're, we're at the precipice here. You know, we're we, we're going, we're going under, and, and he. What are you worried about? I've already sent help and yet I couldn't see it, so I was in so much fear. I was gripped by it. And literally five minutes after I'd, I'd finished praying. I got a, um, uh, an unknown number call on my mobile.
Now I don't normally answer on unknown numbers. Um, uh, but I decided for whatever reason, cuz I was at the end of my tether, I'd answer it and the lady said, Oh, hello. Catherine from Lloyd's Bank, and I thought, Oh no, what do you want? Not a survey about how , how you've done about our inquiry inquiry recently.
And she said, Well, no, we've, um, we've reviewed your application and we're gonna grant it. We're gonna grant the loan. And I said, What? Like, you've turned this down three times. Like, what? Why? And she said, Oh, we've just had a look at it and you know, we've basically changed our minds. And I said, Can I just ask, how did you get my.
And she said, Oh, it's the number that's on the account when we set out the bank account years ago. Cause it had been my business partner that that was, was dealing with, with that side of things. And, um, I said, Oh, that's, that's absolutely brilliant. And, um, I, I put the phone down and once again I found myself on the floor in my home office in floods of tears saying, You're amazing.
Mm-hmm. , like, I couldn't see it. I wasn't in control. Um, uh, I, I wanted it to be a certain way. It wasn't happening that way. And even when I was right at the precipice, you were still there saying, Have faith. Have faith. And, and since then I found I have found myself in business to be a lot less fearful. I sometimes think that God does it on purpose just to say, you know, Are you still on board?
Are you really still on board? So is that the first challenge you guys have faced as business owners to, uh, face the pandemic? Because I mean, that's quite a recent example. Well, there was a recession in, was a credit crisis in 2008 with the banking, which led to a recession through 2009, 2010. and there was a recession in 90 19, 93, 94.
So we've been trading through all those times. When I thought about what are the things that we, as people are often fearful of, things like losing your home, losing your job.
Going bankrupt, ending up in debt that you know you'll never be able to manage. These are big fears. And when these, uh, national situations happen, or even international with Brexit influence, you can be faced with potential scenarios like.
So John, earlier on you said you are a people person, . But do you feel a sense of responsibility for the people you employ? I think the most. Going back to the, the, the initial fear question that I think the moment of fear you might say is the Christmas dinner when you stroll in and there's like 30, 35 people sitting there and you are providing for all these people.
This is the families that you are providing with providing for. And um, I find that sort of, this is a bit worrying. This is, you know, can we get our home now? , I think there are those moments when it, when it's when you don't see them altogether, it, it sounds a bit old, but you, I don't see it in quite the same sort of way.
And I think you do become a bit of customers, but when things start to go wrong, like the recession rolls up and the phone doesn't ring and there's kind of one job in front of us, and then what we gonna do after that, that is, Uh, moments where when you realize there's kind of responsibility that you've put yourself into it?
, yeah. I mean, I, I'm joking about the Christmas bit, but it is, I do find a little twinge when you see all those people that are sat together. Anything, uh, You know, this is, this is, they're all looking to us to provide for them and it's, yeah, you've gotta keep it going. It's an interesting dynamic, isn't it?
Because they're looking to you to provide and you're actually you are looking to somebody else to, to really provide. Yeah, I think there, there, there's moments as, as, as I, I mean, I go out and price all the jobs and look at everything and, um, There are those moments when you go and look at things and you think, Well, God, why are we here?
What's this one? Is this, is this our sort of thing? Is it something we ought to walk away from? And, and what is this person like that I've just met? And, uh, are they actually gonna pay? And, There are those, it sounds you're looking at a house that's subsiding or something like that, and at the same time you, you, there's that sort of conversations taking place with God as to, you know, where we going with this?
What is it? Is it, is this the right situation? Isn't it the right situation? , And sometimes you're just taken up with building rather than praying. . Do you often find, um, and again, I'm speaking from my own experience, , do you often find that that actually is those difficult times that draws you nearer to God?
. I think my response to that is I find it disappointing. That you talk to God more when it's a problem. I mean, it's all going, you know, swimmingly wonderful and you wish you would be a bit more thankful when that big check turns up or whatever it is.
I think, um, yeah, it does disappoint me as an individual that you do pray a bit harder when times are hard, but , Oh, I wanna get better at it. Yeah. Trust me, I do. Yeah. But yeah. But then often we only pray when times are hard. Do you pray when times are easier at all, or is it only when it looks like you know you're gonna lose?
So, I'm asking that to Matt too. Really? I, this sounds a bit old, but I tend to do it in the car driving about as to, um, I dunno where I'm going. Not in a. Is this the right job? Not as blatant as that, but as the situation, you talk to God about it and you know, uh, I think you feel concerned because the devil's very good at throwing this sort of arrows that you, you, you know, you're not quite good enough for this.
And I think he, to talking to God as those things roll up is, to me is a strength, you know, a resource of a, I don't react in the same way you do Matt about it. But I do, uh, going back to the recession thing as to when we all went home and had nothing to do in the morning, it was kind of a bit, sort of, I'm sure about this, it just sort of, well, God, what's happening now?
And I think those moments also as an individual, I find that there's all sorts of things go through your mind, which are not at all helpful and you have just commit it all to God and say, you know, can I leave this with you, sort of thing. Walk away from it. But, um, my feeling I think at that moment when we all went home and then didn't have anything to do is, well God, you got this far.
So I'm not sure what we're gonna do now, but I'm sure you got something else in mind. And there's a few other people in the same boat as well, so , it's not easy, but yeah, for me it's, , I walk to work and, I can be quite anxious at the start of the day, the thought of all the things that could potentially go wrong.
I'm quite good at seeing all the things that could potentially go wrong, um, on my walk to work. Um, I often talk to God, actually. I often sing and I find that it's as if. Pops a certain song into my mind and I'm sing that to myself as I go along. And actually listening to the words and the truth of it counteract the, um, really unhelpful thoughts that I've had at the start of the day, which do come from a place of anxiety and words of the songs about God.
Um, remind me that God, God loves me, that God is faithful, that God is with me. Primarily, I think it reminds me that God is with me and by the time I get to my workplace, that's the place I'm in and through the day, off and on, not consciously, but I do chat to God from time to time and not just at work, but wherever I go.
But sometimes I. It's like chatting to someone, you know? You don't need to have a whole structured conversation with a beginning of middle and an end. You just sort of say, Oh, what about that? It's snippets of conversation with God. And being sometimes that makes God can make you more aware of things around you that he just wants you to notice.
Again, you talk about walking to work. Whenever I walk to the station, whenever I walk over the bridge. Across the railway. I'm reminded of a, of a time just after we were allowed to go back to the office in the middle of the pandemic, God gave me a picture, um, as I was walking to work of him, laying me down on my desk at work, cutting me open and removing three stones from my stomach, and he washed the stones off and one said debt.
One said doubt and one said defeat. And I saw him in his hands actually take these stones and crush them. I'm like, What? Why is it God that you, that you've revealed it here, like on, on this bridge and it's because I have to cross that bridge. I don't have a choice to get to work. I have to cross that bridge.
And it's like he put analar of truth there to say, Actually, you know what, Matt?, I am truth. I I have got you it doesn't matter what the enemy says. It doesn't matter what your circumstances say. It doesn't even really matter what you say. Matt , because I'm gonna have the last word in this, and I, I find it so, so helpful being able to, Rely on what God has said to me personally because actually when I then get on the train, that's when I open up my Bible and start to read his word.
But it's before I've even begun to open his word, the stuff that he's already said to me and spoken into my life. It just gives you that, that faith that actually the enemy ain't gonna have their way and the lies that he's speaking over to try and create that fear is just not gonna have any power in me.
I'm gonna twist things slightly because that's the way I like to think about things is most of my anxiety and work because of the work I do, isn't mine. I deal with other people's anxieties and fear all the time. So one of the things I do, uh, in order to earn a living is I'm a funeral celebrant and I meet families in crisis all the time.
And during the pandemic, I wasn't sitting still, I was out and about all the time. There was a little bit of anxiety about catching stuff. But until you've done a funeral for a family, it's only allowed six people to go and say goodbye. Um, it's really a challenge. Do you find that other people's anxiety and fear, first of all, do you feel that in what you do and how does that affect your sense of freedom in the spirit and your sense of wellbeing?
So I probably am quite a sensitive person and I do pick up on, , I like to think I pick up on what other people are experiencing and feeling. and I've, God has been teaching me more recently how to.
Really stand close with him and
not take on board other people's, , anxieties and distress, but to give that to God
so that I can share Jesus' love. with people and pass that to them in their place of need. Not Rowan trying to meet their needs, but trying to, bring Jesus into the situation because Jesus is with me, letting Jesus be the one that meets with them, and I'm just there as part of that. , I am a problem solver by character.
, I like to prevent troubles. So if you're giving me a messy situation, give me 10 minutes and I'll have sorted it out. , want a job . Um, but actually it's, although I love God and I love people and got. Wants to bless people through me. He's not asking me to solve other people's problems and fix other people and carry their load.
So I cry with other people. I laugh with other people. but it's very early on in my Christian life. I. Pray the words of a song, Make me a channel of your peace. And that is really what I've wanted my whole life. That Jesus would just use me as an empty channel to support other people. And, For them to receive what Jesus has to give, but just channeled through me.
So I've had to learn how to not be the F, try and be the fixer and wear myself out and burn out completely, but to just be the conduit for Jesus to meet with people and, carry their burdens for them. So what do you believe are the best weapons that you have to face? Anxiety and fear. You just mentioned being a channel of peace.
What else?
I've become more bold in asking the Holy Spirit to step into situations, into small moments and into big situations. I also, through the family I've. sat with people in their last minutes of life and,
the people, family members I'm thinking of were Christians and had a faith, but that doesn't make it a hop, skip and a jump into heaven. Mm-hmm. and, and being in again, being in situations that you don't know how to handle and just asking God and amazingly, He inspires you. He just gives you an idea in your mind or something like that.
Something pops up and inspires you. And I found if I follow with that, then God is there. And God quite obviously, meets with people and it was, um, a wonderful, you know, such a privilege to. Be able to channel God's presence for my mother, who just God's, I could see God speak to her. She grabbed hold of that, she said yes, and then she was ready to go into heaven.
And others in different ways. Also the quietness of needing to sit quietly with people who are sorrowful. For whatever reason. And that maybe sometimes asking God to just when God, you are asking God what to do in a situation, sometimes it's just sit and say nothing. But what about in the every day?
I mean, you said in passing, John, you said about praying in the car and you said about walking to work and singing and those things, those everyday moments where anxiety, fear, the normal things they creep in, don't they? You said the enemy throws darts at you and for me is that die as well? You haven't said that, right?
They're not gonna like that. How do, what are those things that you do regularly that help? You are allowed to be obvious as well as subtle
I think for me it's a matter of you get, as you said, the dark one. It's a matter of praising God At that point, to me is, is the answer to it
there've been times when I thought, but I thought that was part of my personality. I thought I had to live with that all my life, and God just said, No, you don't Just lay it down at the foot of the cross. And I've done that in my mind and I've found that. An unhelpful trait in my personality has been taken away by Jesus, and instead he's given me an exchange and has given me something positive to replace it with.
So that is the most wonderful thing that something I struggled with for years has gone and I learned from that, Oh God can do that. These things that trip you up like John was. These unhelpful thoughts, God can do that. So if he's done it once, he can do it again. And sometimes he'll show me something else and I'm like, I don't, I don't want to keep tripping up over that thought.
So I put it at the foot of the cross and he reminds me, which is for me a really important truth. Told onto that he loves me. He knows exactly who I. I wasn't a mistake when I was made. He loves me as I am and he wants to take me into a place of a fuller personality with all the unhelpful bits disappearing, which is, includes things like anxiety and fear, and fear of being lonely.
And fear of not being good enough and so on. He wants to take all that away and replace it with the knowledge that I am the daughter of the King of Kings. Amen. Absolutely. I, I think it's, that does bring up an interesting point, which is that, um, often to deal with fear and anxiety, to deal with our insecurities and our uncertainties, it involves a process of getting to know ourselves and getting to know ourselves in God's sight.
Um, but that can be in itself a really uncomfortable time. I'm always fascinated by people who pray for more of God's patience or more of God's, um, security or more of anything, because that basically means, Lord, please put me through the tumble dryer again. Mm-hmm. , because I need to learn that because the only way to learn stuff is to go through it.
Yeah. Have you found. This is again for Matt too, cuz I'm aware that we're all going through this stuff. Have you found it to be helpful to get to know yourself? Is it something you're going through the process of, Is it something that was difficult? What do you think? I'll start with that one then. . So again, going, going through the, the process, My, my, the, the devil uses the same tactic with me every time.
The first thing that he does is he, he attacks my business and says, Your business is gonna fail. That's what he does. That, that's what goes through my mind whenever we have a bad week. Uh, he, he says, Your business is gonna fail. And it's my choice whether or not I believe him, because what happens is I, I go, I, the, the thing that gets me, the thing that winds me up is I, I used to go through a process of going, right, okay, well, my business gonna fail.
If my business fails. That means that, um, we're gonna have no money coming out our home. That means that we're gonna lose our house. That means that we're gonna have to move out. That means that my wife's gonna leave me, that she's gonna take my children. That means, Matt, that you are gonna be alone and you are gonna have no.
And I had to get to a point where, um, I was comfortable with that because all of that stuff could happen. It, it, it, you know, rash, it could happen apart from one thing. I'm not gonna be alone. And God had to, as has spent years and years and years working on that, that bit, that actually I'm not, I'm never gonna be alone.
I am never gonna be far away from the love of God again. He, it gives me pictures time and time again. He says it in his word. Time and time again. I, I prayed this through with you, Rowan, um, a few months ago. I shared that, that God had given me a picture of me and him sitting in a boat and, um, and on God's knuckles was tattooed.
The words hold fast and I thought it meant that I had to hold fast to God. And he once again says what he always says, it always starts with, No, Matt, no. It's not that you have to hold fast to me, it's that you have to realize that I am holding fast to you, and it doesn't matter what you do. It doesn't matter what you say or what you don't do.
I'm never letting go of you. And actually when I suddenly realized that that's who God WA was and who I am in God, that the rest of the stuff just fell. And it didn't matter that the devil said You've had a bad week this week because I wasn't jumping to Well, you're gonna be alone forever cuz God was, is and forever will hold fast to me, that's the battle that I've gone through with it.
Um, and I'm so thankful actually for all these tough times where God has proved himself time and time again to be.
I forgot what the question was again. Nigel, can you go again? , I think I've forgotten what he was as well, if I'm honest. , I've forgotten what the question was, but the part of the, the, the truth is that God is faithful. And more recently I've, you know, I've heard it said and really taken it on board. God loves me on my worst days and I'll, like when I'm with my friends, I'm general.
Fairly nice and I enjoy being with them and I, I hope they enjoy being with me, but God is with me on my worst. God loves me as much on my worst days. He cares about me and he is there for me. On my worst days. And that is not just for me, that is his pattern of relationship and that's what he offers to other people too.
So for the people I love care about, have met once, walked past in the street, that is the truth.
Yeah, I think it's that, that total undying truth, that, that, you know, that Jesus died on the cross and rose again for me and for all of you know, the rest of rest of us. And that is something that the devil tries to tear away from you in the doubtful moments, and you just gotta hang onto that, that, you know, he loves each one of us and, and that is the, I think to me it's sort of when you're getting really concerned about all the things that you outlined, Matt, it's just, yeah, he died for me.
, he's that much of a friend, and, um, we just gotta hang onto that in those difficult moments. I find another helpful, helpful thing is gratitude. You did actually touch on it earlier, John g. Uh, if I start my day thanking God for the fact that I woke up in the morning, I know that that , that actually things start to build.
I start to thank God that I woke up in a, house with a roof, that there's some running water, that there's food for my family. And actually when, when you do start to count your blessings, and thank God for all those blessings, The worries that we'll try to intrude don't seem to have as much power.
I, in response, I think that brought me back to a picture, which apparently isn't, which isn't particularly spiritual. But I can remember when the sort of, uh, sin in the back garden as the pandemic kicked off when we drinking coffee and the sun was shining and it was on one hand, Oh dear. Haven't got anything to do.
And on the other hand, it was well, I've got a house, I've got running water. I've got everybody around me. Why am I concerned? There's people out, there've got nothing to eat. I'm fine. I've got house. I've got stuff to eat. It's fine. And it kind of, I think God has been so fantastic, generous to us, and we, we fail to, I personally think fail to acknowledge that, that I've actually got everything that I want.
Why do we want anything else? The very basic thing about. Jesus dying on the cross for us and rising again and giving us that option of life. And we are sitting there worried about what we're going do tomorrow. I found that quite an interesting contrast.
Drinking my coffee in the sunshine mean will add nothing to. So that was some of this, just a picture of what went, went through in mind. At the time I was, when I was just thinking about coming to chat with Matt and Nigel, I remembered when I was baptized as. Young person. Um, the words of a song that were sung at the time was about how I, how I came to God.
And they were just as I am though tossed about with many a conflict, many a doubt, fighting and fears without lamb of God. I come. And that those words were sung at the moment I was baptized, and I think that is very true of the struggle that goes on inside me all the time, and that you bring that struggle to Jesus.
And he says, You are precious in my eyes and I love you. And I think that kind of, it does help us kind of close it up cuz we do have to tie this thing up. I think one of the things that's through what both of you are saying, well three of you are saying, one of the things that's really important it seems to me is that, What anxiety and fear do is they steal our joy.
Neither anxiety nor fear are fruit of the spirit, but joy and peace and all of those things are fruit of the spirit. I think it's really important to hold on to positive things to hold onto your faith. To hold onto who God says you are.
. And I think it's really important that we hold onto, always hold onto no matter what we go through, no matter what we face, our joy, our peace, our faith is in God, not in the circumstances we're in. And who we are is more important than what we're going through. You know, just over both of you actually just to speak in God's name, blessing over your business, and blessing over your family, and blessing over your guests, and just thank you so much for coming and thank you so much for being here, Matt.
Cheers guys. Thanks ever so much.