Welcome back everyone to the deep dive. Today, we're gonna get into something that I think a lot of families have probably experienced, unfortunately, which is child custody issues.
Host 2:Mhmm.
Host 1:And, specifically, what happens when you have a child who refuses to see one parent. Yeah. So we're gonna be looking at a blog post today that was written by Sydney Halloran, who was an attorney in Massachusetts, at a firm called Lynch and Owens. And she specializes in child custody at law, so she knows what she's talking about.
Host 2:Oh, absolutely.
Host 1:And, this is gonna be really interesting, I think, to dive into. Yeah. But before we jump in, I just wanna say, if you are listening to this and you are in the middle of a custody battle or anything like that, please, please, please talk to a real attorney. Yes. This is not legal advice in any way.
Host 1:This is for informational purposes only.
Host 2:100%.
Host 1:And even though we're using fancy AI to help us get through all of this stuff Right. It's still just information, And it's very specific to Massachusetts. Right. Because every state has different laws when it comes to things like child custody and domestic violence and all that.
Host 2:Yeah. So important.
Host 1:Yeah. So if you're dealing with this, talk to someone in your state Mhmm. Who knows the laws there.
Host 2:For sure.
Host 1:Okay. So with that being said, let's dive into this a little bit.
Host 2:Let's do it.
Host 1:So basically, what we're talking about here is you've got a court ordered parenting plan
Host 2:Right.
Host 1:In place. And for whatever reason, the child just refuses to see one of the parents.
Host 2:Uh-huh.
Host 1:So what happens then? What are the what are the legal ramifications of that?
Host 2:Right. Well, I think one thing that this blog post really emphasizes that's really important in Massachusetts law is that that court ordered parenting time, it's not a suggestion. It is a legal obligation.
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:And so, you know, when a child refuses to participate, that's when things get really complicated legally. Yeah.
Host 1:And I feel like there's always this question too of, like, how much weight does the child's preference actually carry? Yeah. Because I think there is this common belief that whatever the child says goes. Yeah. And if the child says, I don't wanna see my dad Right.
Host 1:Then the course is gonna be like, okay. Well, then you don't have to see your dad. Like, is it really that simple?
Host 2:Yep. Yeah. It's a common misconception for sure. And, I mean, as she points out in this blog post, it's really not that simple.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:You know, a judge may take that child's preference into account, especially as they get closer to the age of majority.
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:But it's not the deciding factor. Like you said, there needs to be more substantial evidence to actually be able to declare a parent unfit.
Host 1:Okay. So that's interesting. So it's not just like a he said, she said kinda thing Yeah. Or the kids said kinda thing. Right.
Host 1:So there was this case actually from 2023, guardianship of Raya.
Host 2:Yeah.
Host 1:And it was about a 14 year old girl who basically wanted to live with her grandmother and her uncle instead of her mother.
Host 2:Uh-huh.
Host 1:And, I was surprised to read that the court actually sided with her initially, but then that got reversed on appeal. So I'm kinda curious what happened there.
Host 2:Yeah. It's so interesting, this guardianship of Raya case, because it really, I think, highlights the distinction between preference and evidence. Right? So the initial ruling was very much based on this teenager saying, I really wanna live with my relatives. You know, I don't wanna live with my mom.
Host 2:Uh-huh. But the appeals court really dug deeper into the evidence that was presented about the mother's parenting
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:And the situation as a whole and actually found that her conduct did not justify, you know, separating her from her daughter.
Host 1:So basically, like, just because a kid says, I don't wanna see this parent, that's not enough, There has to be
Host 2:Totally.
Host 1:Something that
Host 2:There has to be evidence. There has to be a reason why.
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:It's the child's preference.
Host 1:Okay. So the child's preference is just, like, one small part.
Host 2:One piece of the puzzle. Yeah.
Host 1:Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So then what happens if you are the parent who is being shut out?
Host 1:Like, what recourse do you have?
Host 2:So the blog post outlines a few avenues.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:And one is that, you know, if the reason that the child is refusing contact is because of abuse or mistreatment Okay. Or, like, a significant change in circumstances, you know, that parent can present evidence to the court. And that could either be during the initial custody proceedings or they could file for a modification of the order.
Host 1:I was gonna say, so you can't just go back every time there's, like, a little disagreement about visitation?
Host 2:Right. Exactly. You can just go back and forth and back and forth.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:But even if those specific justifications aren't present, just filing for a modification estrangement.
Host 1:So it's not necessarily about, like, winning and losing. It's more about, like, trying to get to the bottom of what's going on.
Host 2:Absolutely. It's a lot more nuanced than that. It's definitely not black and white.
Host 1:It sounds like it.
Host 2:Yeah.
Host 1:It's a lot of gray area in all of this.
Host 2:Totally.
Host 1:And, I mean, I imagine this is just, like, incredibly emotionally charged
Host 2:Oh, absolutely.
Host 1:For everyone involved.
Host 2:Yeah. For the parents, for the children, for everyone. Yeah. It's hard.
Host 1:So, yeah, I mean, how does the court even begin to grapple with all of that? Yeah. You know?
Host 2:It's really tough because, you know, they have to consider the reality that this is so emotional.
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:And it's not just about, like, enforcing the rules. It's about, you know, trying to find solutions that really do prioritize the well-being of everyone and especially the child.
Host 1:Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.
Host 2:It's tough.
Host 1:Yeah. So how do they I mean, how does that even work then if you are the parent who does have the child's preference? Yeah. And maybe you're not being the best influence in terms of, like, encouraging the relationship with the other parent.
Host 2:Right.
Host 1:Like, what happens then?
Host 2:Yeah. That's where contempt of court kind of comes into play.
Host 1:Oh, okay.
Host 2:Because if that parent is found to be, you know, actively hindering the other parent's time with the child Mhmm. They can actually face legal consequences.
Host 1:So, like, if I take my kid to their dad's house and they refuse to get out of the car Yeah. Is that enough for me to be held in contempt?
Host 2:The blog post actually uses that specific example, and it's not always so clear cut. Oh, really? So, like, in that situation, just bringing the child to the home and then refusing to go inside, inside, that might not be enough.
Host 1:Oh, wow.
Host 2:The real key is proving intent. Like, did that parent intentionally disobey the court order?
Host 1:Okay. So there's a difference between, like, them just refusing to go and me, like, telling them
Host 2:Exactly.
Host 1:Don't go in.
Host 2:Yeah. There's a big difference there.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:You know, so they're really looking at, you know, did you intentionally try to sabotage that relationship?
Host 1:Okay. So that's interesting. So, like, what are some examples then that would cross the line?
Host 2:Okay. So some things that the blog mentions are things like bad mouthing the other parent to the child.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:Making false accusations about abuse Yeah. Scheduling, you know, conflicting activities during the other parent's designated
Host 2:time with the kid. Plus you're, like, purposely Yeah. You're purposely, like just getting in the way. Getting in the way. Yeah.
Host 1:Okay. Interesting.
Host 2:Yeah. So, really, anything that undermines that court order and is a deliberate attempt to sabotage the other parent's relationship with the child.
Host 1:So they're really trying to figure out, like, is this a legitimate
Host 2:Yeah. Is there a reason?
Host 1:Reason why the kid doesn't wanna go. Mhmm. Or is this, like, mom or dad, you know, manipulating the situation?
Host 2:Exactly.
Host 1:Okay. And I feel like too, you know, we were just talking about how it's not always the other parent's fault.
Host 2:Right. It's not always so black and white.
Host 1:Yeah.
Host 2:Sometimes the estranged parents' actions have contributed to the situation.
Host 1:And, especially, I would imagine as kids get older and they're a little more independent
Host 2:Right.
Host 1:Like, they can kinda make those decisions for themselves.
Host 2:Exactly. And, you know, it's not always, you know, mom brainwash me to not like that. Sometimes it's like, you know, dad's actions have led to this. So Yeah. It's tough.
Host 1:That's a tough pill to swallow, I would imagine, for
Host 2:It is.
Host 1:For a parent.
Host 2:Yeah. It's a hard reality check.
Host 1:Yeah. But, like, a necessary one, I guess.
Host 2:I think so.
Host 1:You know, you have to kinda look at yourself and be like, okay. Maybe I Yeah. Did something to contribute to this too.
Host 2:Yeah. And the blog actually asks this really thought provoking question. It says, can a teenager's, you know, negative perception of a parent always be blamed on the other parent.
Host 1:Yeah. That's deep.
Host 2:And it's something to think about. You know? Like, is it always the other parent's fault? Yeah. That's a tough question.
Host 2:Yeah.
Host 1:And, I mean, what do you even do about all of this? Like, are there solutions to this problem?
Host 2:Yeah. So she talks about, you know, open communication between the parents is really, really important even when it's strained.
Host 1:So even if it's, like, really difficult Yeah. You should still
Host 2:Yes. Keeping those lines of communication open
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:And documenting efforts to maintain contact that's crucial.
Host 1:So, like, if I call and I'm like, hey. I wanna talk to the kids.
Host 2:Exactly. And you're keeping track of it.
Host 1:And they won't talk to me. I should write that down.
Host 2:You should write it down. Keep track of every phone call, every attempted visit, every email, every letter, all of that. Because if this does end up back in court
Host 1:Oh, okay.
Host 2:You have that documentation to show that you are really trying.
Host 1:Wow. Okay. So it shows your effort, basically.
Host 2:Exactly. And then, you know, beyond just the communication piece, there's also you know, professional intervention can be helpful.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:And she mentions therapy or family counseling as options.
Host 1:And is that something that the court would order, or is that something that the parents would do on their own?
Host 2:It can be both. Okay. You know, sometimes parents agree to seek therapy on their own, but in other cases, the court might mandate it
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:As part of the custody order or a modification to the order. Okay. But either way, it's really recognizing that these situations are complicated, and they really do require more than just, like, a legal ruling to resolve.
Host 1:It's not just about, like, you get to see them this day and you get to see them that day. Like
Host 2:Exactly.
Host 1:It's more complicated than that.
Host 2:It's a lot more nuanced than that. Yeah.
Host 1:Okay. And I guess I'm thinking to, like, what about the kid in all this? Like, how does the court know what the kid is thinking and feeling and wanting?
Host 2:That's a really good point, and that's where the role of a guardian ad litem comes in.
Host 1:Do you remind me what that is?
Host 2:Yes. So a guardian ad litem or a g a l is appointed by the court.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:And they represent the child's best interests.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:So they will interview the child and talk to the parents Uh-huh. And look at all the records and then make recommendations to the judge based on all that.
Host 1:So it's like the kid has their own little
Host 2:Yeah. They have their own advocate.
Host 1:Lawyer, basically.
Host 2:Exactly. Wow.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:Yeah. So that way, they're making sure that the child's needs and wishes are being considered.
Host 1:Okay. So it's not just about what mom and dad want or what the law says. Right. It's like, what does the kid actually want?
Host 2:Yeah. Exactly.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:That's really important.
Host 1:So you've got, like, a whole team of people involved there.
Host 2:You do you have lawyers. You have therapists. You have GALs all working together to try to find what's best for the kid.
Host 1:Wow. And I imagine every case is just so different.
Host 2:Absolutely. Every case is so different. You can't just, like, have one solution.
Host 1:There's no, like, one size fits all.
Host 2:Exactly. The blog makes that point really clear. You know, judges have a lot of discretion in these cases because they have to consider the specific circumstances.
Host 1:So that's why it's so important to talk to an attorney.
Host 2:A 100%.
Host 1:Because they know all those little nuances and how they apply to your specific case.
Host 2:Yeah. And they can advocate for you Right. And make sure that your side of the story is heard.
Host 1:Okay. So even with an attorney, though, it's still not like a guarantee.
Host 2:No. There are no guarantees in these situations. Yeah. And the blog actually acknowledges that some cases of this parent child estrangement, you know, they just can't be fixed.
Host 1:That's sad. Yeah. That's really sad.
Host 2:It's a hard reality.
Host 1:Yeah. And it what do you even do then if that's the case? Like
Host 2:It's tough, but I think, you know, the blog kinda shifts the focus away from trying to, like, force a change in the other person
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:To, you know, finding ways to cope and move forward in a healthy way for yourself.
Host 1:So it's like you can only control what you can control.
Host 2:Exactly. You can control your actions, your reactions. Right. You can't control other people.
Host 1:Yeah.
Host 2:And sometimes that's the most empowering thing you can do is focusing on your own well-being.
Host 1:It's like recognizing that you can't force your kid to love you or want a relationship with you.
Host 2:Yeah. And as hard as that is to accept Yeah. It's important.
Host 1:Yeah. So it's more about then, like, what do you do with that? How do you move forward?
Host 2:Exactly. How do you heal? How do you find happiness and build a fulfilling life for yourself?
Host 1:Yeah. It's like there's still hope, basically, even though
Host 2:There is there's always hope.
Host 1:This really difficult thing has happened.
Host 2:Right.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:Yeah. That's
Host 1:a good message. I like that.
Host 2:It is a good message.
Host 1:Okay. So it sounds like we've covered a lot of ground here with this. You know, we've talked about the legal side of things. We've talked about the emotional side of things. We've talked about solutions.
Host 1:Yeah. We've talked about, you know, what happens if there is no solution.
Host 2:Right.
Host 1:So I guess the big takeaway here is that there is no easy answer.
Host 2:Yeah. There's no easy answer, no magic formula when it comes to these situations.
Host 1:And every case is so specific and so unique.
Host 2:It is. And that's where the human element really comes into play.
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:You know, judges can't just apply a rigid set of rules.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:They have to consider all the nuances, all the personalities, the history, all of that.
Host 1:So that brings us back to talking to an attorney. Right?
Host 2:Yeah. And finding someone who specializes in these types of cases who really knows their stuff
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:And can guide you and help you.
Host 1:So anyone listening who's dealing with this, you are not alone.
Host 2:You are not alone.
Host 1:There are resources out there, and talking to an attorney is the first step.
Host 2:A great first step.
Host 1:Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been really interesting.
Host 2:Yeah. This is a fascinating topic for sure.
Host 1:It is. And, you know, it's heartbreaking, but it's also, I think, helpful Yeah. To know that, like, there are things you can do.
Host 2:There are, and there are people who understand
Host 1:Yeah. Exactly.
Host 2:What you're going through.
Host 1:Awesome. Thanks for joining us on the deep dive, everyone.
Host 2:See you next time.
Host 1:So it's not just about, like, you get to see them this day, you get to see them that day. Like Exactly. It's more complicated than that.
Host 2:It's a lot more nuanced than that. Yeah.
Host 1:Okay. And I guess I'm thinking too, like, what are the kid in all this? Like, how does the court know what the kid is thinking and feeling and wanting?
Host 2:That's a really good point, and that's where the role of a guardian ad litem comes in.
Host 1:Can you remind me what that is?
Host 2:Yes. So a guardian ad litem or a GLA is appointed by the court.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:And they represent the child's best interests.
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:So they will interview the child and talk to the parents Uh-huh. And look at all the records and then make recommendations to the judge based on all that.
Host 1:So it's like the kid has their own little
Host 2:Yeah. They have their own advocate.
Host 1:Basically.
Host 2:Exactly.
Host 1:Wow.
Host 2:Okay. So that way they're making sure that the child's needs and wishes are being considered.
Host 1:Okay. So it's not just about what mom and dad want or what the law says. It's like, what does the kid actually want?
Host 2:Yeah. Exactly. That's really important.
Host 1:So you've got, like, a whole team of people involved then?
Host 2:You do. You have lawyers. You have therapists. You have GALs all working together to try to find what's best for the kid.
Host 1:Wow. And I imagine every case is just so different.
Host 2:Absolutely. Yeah. Every case is so different. You can't just, like, have one solution.
Host 1:There's no, like, one size fits all.
Host 2:Exactly. The blog makes that point really clear. You know, judges have a lot of discretion in these cases because they have to consider the specific circumstances.
Host 1:So that's why it's so important to talk to an attorney.
Host 2:A 100%.
Host 1:Because they know all those little nuances and how they apply to
Host 2:Exactly.
Host 1:Your specific case.
Host 2:Yeah. And they can advocate for you Right. And make sure that your side of the story is heard.
Host 1:Okay. So even with an attorney, though, it's still not like a guarantee?
Host 2:No. There are no guarantees in these situations.
Host 1:No.
Host 2:And the blog actually acknowledges that some cases of this parent child estrangement, you know, they just can't be fixed.
Host 1:That's sad. Yeah. That's really sad.
Host 2:It's a hard reality.
Host 1:Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, what do you even do then if that's the case? Like
Host 2:It's tough, but I think, you know, the blog kinda shifts the focus away from trying to, like, force a change in the other person
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:To, you know, finding ways to cope and move forward in a healthy way for yourself.
Host 1:So it's like you can only control what you can control.
Host 2:Exactly. You can control your actions, your reactions
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:But you can't control other people. And sometimes that's the most empowering thing you can do is focusing on your own well-being.
Host 1:It's like recognizing that you can't force your kid to love you or want a relationship with you.
Host 2:Yeah. And as hard as that is to accept
Host 1:Yeah.
Host 2:It's important.
Host 1:Yeah. So it's more about them, like, what do you do with that? How do you move forward?
Host 2:Exactly. How do you heal? How how do you find happiness and build a fulfilling life for yourself?
Host 1:Yeah. It's like there's still hope, basically, even though
Host 2:There is. There's always hope.
Host 1:This really difficult thing has happened. Right. Okay. Yeah. That's a good message.
Host 1:I like that.
Host 2:That is a good message.
Host 1:Okay. So it sounds like we've covered a lot of ground here with this. You know, we've talked about the legal side of things. We've talked about the emotional side of things. Yeah.
Host 1:We've talked about solutions. Yeah. We've talked about, you know, what happens if there is no solution.
Host 2:Right.
Host 1:So I guess the big takeaway here is that there is no easy answer.
Host 2:Yeah. There's no easy answer. No magic formula
Host 1:Yeah.
Host 2:When it comes to these situations.
Host 1:And every case is so specific and so unique.
Host 2:It is. And that's where the human element really comes into play.
Host 1:Right.
Host 2:You know, judges can't just apply a rigid set of rules.
Host 1:K.
Host 2:They have to consider all all the nuances, all the personalities, the history, all of that.
Host 1:That brings us back to talking to an attorney.
Host 2:Yeah. Yeah. And finding someone who specializes in these types of cases who really knows their stuff
Host 1:Okay.
Host 2:And can guide you and help you.
Host 1:So anyone listening who's dealing with this, you're not alone.
Host 2:You are not alone.
Host 1:There are resources out there, and talking to an attorney
Host 2:is Absolutely.
Host 1:The first step.
Host 2:A great first step. Yeah.
Host 1:Awesome. Well, thank you so much. This has been really interesting.
Host 2:Yeah. This is a fascinating topic for sure.
Host 1:It is. And, you know, it's heartbreaking, but it's also, I think, helpful Yeah. To know that, like, there are things you can do.
Host 2:There are. And there are people who understand
Host 1:Yeah. Exactly.
Host 2:What you're going through.
Host 1:Awesome. Thanks for joining us on the deep dive, everyone.
Host 2:See you next time.