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Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.
PJ Wehry (00:01.201)
Hello and welcome to Chasing the Viathan. I'm your host, PJ Weary. I'm here today with Dr. Rebecca Tukachinsky-Forster, Associate Professor of Communication Studies at Chapman University. And we're here today to talk about the Oxford Handbook of Parasocial Experiences that Dr. Forster edited and contributed several essays. Dr. Forster, wonderful to have you on today.
Rebecca (00:24.589)
Thank you for having me.
PJ Wehry (00:27.015)
So first question, and I was excited to read the beginning, like the why is really evident, but why this book? Why do we need an Oxford handbook of parasocial experiences?
Rebecca (00:41.866)
So the term parasocial, parasocial interactions, parasocial relationships has been around for a while. It has been first coined by two sociologists back in the 1950s. so it was Richard Hall and Donald Horton in 1956.
in the seminal study or essay. And then this term kind of lied in obscurity for decades until it was picked up by empirical researchers in the 1970s and more so in the 1980s. And then I would say in the last 15, 20 years, the field kind of boomed the research in this area really grew tremendously. And I think, and interestingly,
I think it's one of those few very specialized terms that somehow escaped the realms of academia into the wild. I personally have been invited to talk to Teen Vogue or to the New York Times about parasocial relationships. So this very specialized term that was something that a dozen of scholars would write
PJ Wehry (01:55.548)
You
Rebecca (02:06.518)
about in academic journals and not be read by anyone outside of that clique of scholars, all of a sudden becomes a thing. so I just thought that the time is right to synthesize the literature and kind of have a better understanding of where the field is standing now and what are the next things that need to happen. So that's the story behind.
behind this book. And I was very fortunate to be able to reach out to many of those leading scholars in this field and get them to write about their areas of specialization within that general field.
PJ Wehry (02:54.008)
You know, it's funny, that's actually it was my brother who said first said parasocial to me, and he doesn't care about any kind of academic studies at all. And I was like, where did that come from? I was like, that's a really helpful term. But I was surprised it's interesting to see what does escape kind of the academic bubble and becomes valuable like that. So do you mind?
Well, one, do you think it's the rise of social media that's made it more interesting as a field and why it's escaped the culture bubble?
Rebecca (03:26.946)
So can you repeat the question? I'm sorry.
PJ Wehry (03:32.016)
Yeah, absolutely. No, no worries. So do you think it's because of the rise of social media? And yeah.
Rebecca (03:38.67)
Sorry, yes. Well, so to be honest, I'm not entirely sure that parasocial always applies to social media, although I think it's sometimes a misuse of the term. So maybe I should start with defining it. that, So the idea of parasocial is quasi-social, not really social, but it...
PJ Wehry (03:52.897)
yes, please.
PJ Wehry (04:02.598)
Mmm.
Rebecca (04:03.156)
feels like social. It's an illusion of a social interaction, parasocial relationships. So that's the feeling that you have that someone is interacting with you and it's two way give and take experience. Even though in the context of media, it is not, you know, like you are maintaining eye contact with the camera, you are using direct address, you're saying you, you know, like the classic example will be like the door of the explorer, right? But also,
You know like a video exercise when they're like, you're doing good five more going strong. Yeah, well you're so So breaking the fourth wall in house of cards so all of those are facilitating this feeling that there is an interaction and someone sees you and responds to you even if it's not really the case and so that's personal interaction and
Parasocial relationship is a different type of a parasocial experience that is more enduring, that is about the relationship. When you feel connected, you feel affinity with, you feel intimacy with the media personalities. They obviously don't know that you even exist, right? It's entirely one-dimensional, it's imaginary, but it feels real. So when you're seeing that same...
TV host every evening, the same news anchor, the same soap opera characters, they become like your friends. Like they are part of your living room, they're part of your like social fabric. So those are parasocial relationships. And I know a lot of people use it in the context of social media, but the thing is that on social media, oftentimes many of the interactions that we have are not parasocial, they are actually social.
And not always, but depending on whom you're talking about, but some of the relationships there are actually social relationships. are mediated through communication, through computer communication, but it is not an illusion of an interaction. It's an actual interaction. yeah, sorry. So I'm just saying it's not always the case. Like if it is...
PJ Wehry (06:16.867)
Yes.
Rebecca (06:23.298)
a celebrity that is not really actually like, a, not a micro influencer that really cares about each individual person in their feed. But if it is, a celebrity that doesn't actually engage with their fans on an individual basis, then maybe there is room for calling it power social. but it's, it's not automatically part social just because it is on social media.
PJ Wehry (06:53.156)
Yes, absolutely. And I'm glad the question I was just about to ask is I've watched video game streaming and I've watched with really big people. And even if you put it, put anything in the chat, they're not, you don't, they don't see it because there's so many people talking in the chat. But if you have a very small, when you said micro influencers, literally wasn't like, you have someone who has like 10 viewers and you reach out, you start a real relationship. It's mediated.
Rebecca (06:59.981)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Rebecca (07:09.996)
Right.
Rebecca (07:21.528)
Yeah. Yes.
PJ Wehry (07:22.416)
But it's a real, so that makes, so it can happen on social media, but it's, what we're talking about are the really like, another example that I thought of, I don't listen to podcasts this way, but I have people who tell me that they will listen to podcasts, just in the background and they think of it like friends talking. Right. And so, and it's like, but they're not actually your friends. You know that, right? Like, and you start to feel that way. You start to feel a relationship.
Rebecca (07:26.061)
Yes.
Rebecca (07:43.148)
Yes. Right.
PJ Wehry (07:52.269)
and they don't know that you exist. there's been an explosion of this type of media and I think a more personable, like it definitely feels like you have more connection on a phone or am I in the right direction there?
Rebecca (07:52.95)
Yep. Yep.
Rebecca (08:01.038)
Yes. Yes.
Well, mean, so let's start by saying that parasocial is a continuum because you can think of it like if you are a student in an auditorium with 300 other students and there is a professor in front of the classroom that doesn't know you exist, but you have a crush on them. Okay. Do you have a parasocial relationship? Okay. For that matter, you know, if you are,
PJ Wehry (08:12.741)
Mm-hmm.
Rebecca (08:34.52)
I don't know, a freshman in high school and you have a crush on the football player from the senior year. So, I mean, to what extent this is a part, you know, so this kind of all lies on some sort of continuum of parasociability and arguably being in a parasocial relationship with a fictional character or say a cartoon that doesn't have any physical representation.
is even more imaginary, even more quasi-relationship than a relationship with someone that theoretically could read your comment.
So.
PJ Wehry (09:15.984)
Yes, hence the Dora the Explorer example, which I think is a really good one.
Rebecca (09:18.718)
Yeah, yeah. So it is a continuum and you don't have to go really go into social media to create this experience. But and I think one of the questions I've been asked a lot is like.
do we have more parasocial relationships now because celebrities have social media and have those ways of engaging their audiences and I think it would really offend people who grew up in the 60s and experienced the bitumenia or other ways in which you know so you you can have those very strong feelings and and and engagement without the technology it's just
enables you to do it in different ways. It is giving you opportunities to do that. But it's not like it's new. It's not something that hasn't been before. It just was done in a different way. You just had to be subscribed to magazines and be part of a physical club. And you had to work harder for your fandom.
PJ Wehry (10:21.823)
Hahaha
Yes, do you think with one, and I can understand why you're making this distinction, I think it's important, or you're making this point, that it's always been around, I mean, even before the advent of screens in any sense, right? Like when you have a politician who's standing up in front of everyone and speaking to thousands of people, that's apparent, like he doesn't know all the people he's speaking to. Do you think that the
phone or the social media makes the level of perceived intimacy, like there's a greater level of perceived intimacy, or do think that really doesn't make that much of a difference from a psychological standpoint?
Rebecca (11:06.35)
relationship, maybe from an interactive perspective, but from a relationship perspective, the relationship happens in your head. And you imagine it, like you read into that. So that's a fanciful experience. And it is true that self-disclosure is something that relationships thrive on, right? So in that regard, when celebrities are posting personal information, sharing things that are
PJ Wehry (11:18.054)
Yeah.
PJ Wehry (11:30.562)
Yes.
Rebecca (11:35.886)
personal and social media is a great vehicle for that. That's something that is a fodder for personal relationships. But do they have to have social media to do that? No. mean, the invention of the Hollywood machine is all about that of fabricating those background stories and share and using media to share them. And paparazzi industry, all of that thrives.
PJ Wehry (11:39.065)
Mm-hmm.
PJ Wehry (11:48.848)
Hmm.
Rebecca (12:04.655)
And it was just a different way of doing that. So yes, self-disclosure through social media is one way of doing that.
PJ Wehry (12:11.46)
Yeah, and I think you're, you really helped with the Beatles example. That's a great example because people definitely felt an incredible level of intimacy through the songs, right? They're like, he understands me and I understand him. And it's like, I don't know if Paul McCartney really feels understood by you, right? so, as we're kind of looking at that, what are some of the,
Rebecca (12:29.582)
Yes.
PJ Wehry (12:41.222)
One, was gonna ask what are some of the common misconceptions. You did a great job clearing that up. Thank you. What are some of the common dangers and are there any benefits? The dangers like, I think this is common technology thing, right? Where we're like, know, kids today, they're all caught up in Beatlemania or whatever. You know, like, If you say Beatlemania, people are like, it's not bad. But if you, but you said that it's that tone of voice. Yeah, the Swifties, right? But if you say Beatlemania, like, no, I'm fine.
Rebecca (13:02.99)
They are swifties, that's bad.
PJ Wehry (13:11.232)
What are some common dangers and some common benefits of parasocial experiences and relationships?
Rebecca (13:18.028)
Well, so I'll start with something that a misconception about possible dangers. So the there is this notion that our social relationships are can be bad for people because they are substitution for real relationships that you go into this imaginary land and become more socially isolated because you are
you stop distinguishing between reality and fiction and you think you have a relationship with a celebrity. And I have been asked in the past, like, how much parasocial is too much? Like, when does it, when do I start need to worry about my child having parasocial relationship? And the answer is that parasocial relationships are healthy, normal, and there are
And you're not in danger of overdoing them. It is true that some people have mental health challenges and different people have a different kind of context in which they manifest. And for some people, it can be manifested in the parasocial relationship. there are people who develop
unhealthy, you know, stalking celebrities or erotomania when people think that, you know, the celebrity loves me back. so those are people who have a problem and it is manifested in this context. It's not that their parasocial relationship just grew wild and
got derailed. So that's kind of, I think, like the bad rap on fandom is that. What we know is that parasocial relationships have a variety of benefits. They are
Rebecca (15:34.19)
They can provide individuals who are isolated with a way to regain some of the benefits of having a social environment or having a support system. So one example is research on LGBTQ youth during COVID and
how being able to connect to media personalities in parasocial ways was restoring their mental health. We can see that for the longest while, again, in the context of the negative myths about parasocial relationship, the first empirical research on parasocial relationship was looking at loneliness, trying to...
argue that
that parasocial relationships is a substitution for real life relationships. with, that have social deficits develop parasocial relationships instead of developing real relationships. And time and time again, this research fails to find this relationship. We don't see that people with low self-esteem or people who are shy or people who are lonely do more parasocial relationships. There's just no relationship there at all. And
on average. But at the same time, we know that people with low self-esteem, like thinking about a celebrity that they have a personal relationship with, gives them some of the self-esteem gains or some mental health gains that thinking about an interpersonal relationship can give them. So there are...
Rebecca (17:28.59)
positives in this regard. And then you can also leverage personal relationship to promote positive causes. speaking, going back to the explorer example, learning for children, if you are facilitating this personal relationship, if you are going to fall for all the march and get them the stickers and the toys to facilitate that
parasocial relationship and encourage them thinking about that character and playing with that character, they will learn from that character. So if it's an educational character, that's great. If it's a violent character, maybe you don't want to facilitate that parasocial relationship. So just like you choose your kids' friends, you need to choose your kids' parasocial friends. But that goes for adults too. So like when the Angelina Jolie effect, like when she was talking about genetic testing and...
PJ Wehry (18:15.28)
Yeah.
Rebecca (18:27.17)
breast cancer prevention, that had a huge effect on public awareness and information seeking, particularly among people who had a parasocial relationship with her. So you can again leverage that parasocial relationship to promote good causes. Obviously it means you can also promote negative causes.
PJ Wehry (18:34.511)
Hmm.
PJ Wehry (18:50.692)
Yes, so I mean, it's more of a tool where the purposes can be shifted in that way. Yeah, it's interesting even as you said it, because the question you often get, we fear what we don't understand. so I immediately think of this. Parents never, the parents ask about their child in parasocial relationships. They never ask about themselves and what's too much.
Rebecca (18:58.094)
Yeah.
PJ Wehry (19:19.888)
Parasocial relationships, right? Like, it's never that they're worried about them having too much. It's always like, I don't understand what my kid is doing and they really like, like, Taylor Swift and I don't get it. And is that too much? They're really obsessed. And then like, of course, you know, you talk to them about the Beatles or the Sopranos and then they can't shut up about it. And it's like, it's the same thing.
Rebecca (19:41.454)
It's part of the general bias when people overall believe that media influences other people more so than themselves. Like, I'm not influenced by advertising or commercials or political campaigns, but other people are.
PJ Wehry (19:50.15)
Mmm.
PJ Wehry (19:55.023)
Right? Yes. Yeah. man. It's funny to watch that happen time and time again. I remember reading that for the first time and I was like, I am influenced, right? I still laugh that like I grew up and my mom would always get me chalupas from Taco Bell. And that was like a special thing we did together. And I don't think about it. And then if I see an ad for all of a start craving it, you know,
Rebecca (20:07.534)
Yeah
Rebecca (20:20.93)
Mm. Yeah.
PJ Wehry (20:21.894)
And I'm like, it doesn't affect me. It doesn't. know, I'm like, okay, it's real. That's funny.
Rebecca (20:24.36)
Yeah.
PJ Wehry (20:33.306)
As we kind of talk about this, you know, we've mentioned some of the amicable ones you have beyond friendship is one of the essays you worked on in here and you said non amicable. What is a non amicable? That's an interesting way to put it. It's not a hostile one. It's non amicable. So explain, you know, what that distinction is and what are we looking at with those kinds of parasocial relationships?
Rebecca (20:49.026)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rebecca (20:54.149)
So when the term parasocial relationship first emerged, it's kind of assumed positive relationships. But as time went by, kind of in the academia, we refined that term. So if you think about parasocial relationships, they are oftentimes compared to social relationships, like they operate similarly on a psychological level. They have some of the similar benefits, et cetera.
And then you say, like, hold on, I have different types of relationships with different people. My social relationships with my parents are different than with my friends, with my coworkers, my romantic partner, right? There are different relationships, so there there ought to be different parasocial relationships. So some of my works, for example, looked at romantic versus friendship, like parasocial relationships. And then...
The flip side of that is what about the negative parasocial relationships? What about your parasocial enemies and parasocial adversaries? the interesting thing to me is that in real life, you can have a negative relationship with your family or co-workers because you can't always choose your social circle.
But you would think that in a parasocial context, if I don't like this character, I don't have to watch it, right? So I would just, you know, not be in a relationship at all. But to my kind of curiosity, I see a lot of people spending a lot of time on maintaining very negative relationships with the media personalities they hate. So...
So there is like the whole phenomenon of hate watching and then the whole phenomenon of the cancel culture that's not just like, okay, I don't like you. I'm not going to consume your media. It's I'm going to also spend a lot of time and effort generating media content about all the reasons I hate that media personality. so putting a lot of effort into this relationship. that's then.
Rebecca (23:11.584)
the gist of it. there is relatively little research in this area. There has been some by Hartman and some others. And I've been working recently with Melissa Click, who is my co-author on the chapter in this handbook. And we just had a study together right now, trying to learn more about the different reasons people engage in those
PJ Wehry (23:16.518)
Mm.
Rebecca (23:39.114)
relationships that are negative and what exactly is the satisfaction that people derive from engaging in them. So I don't know how much like in which direction you want to take me this.
PJ Wehry (23:51.909)
Yeah, no, that's yeah, there's there's so many threads there. I mean, I think of my my mom really loves Hallmark and she likes to watch it all the time. They live with us for part of the year. They kind of do the the snowbird thing. But and so we've come to an agreement. My wife kind of likes watching Hallmark and I not my favorite.
But I do enjoy making fun of Hallmark. So what we've agreed on in our house is that they can watch as much Hallmark as they want as long as I get to make fun of it as much as I want. Which ends up meaning I watch a lot of Hallmark and it's me making fun of it. Which feels, it's not quite hate watching. I don't hate it. But I'm definitely not watching it for kind of its intended purpose. And that feels like what we're talking about here.
Rebecca (24:42.284)
Yes. Yeah. So some of the, some of the reasons that we are discussing are one is like, it's in, in, it's in this capable, right? Like even if I don't like Taylor Swift, I could not not know that you got engaged, right? So
PJ Wehry (25:03.174)
Yeah.
Rebecca (25:06.932)
In some of our research, again, I'm not expressing a personal opinion. just saying that in some of our research, some of the people who are listed as most disliked media personalities, so one of them or people that's, participants select a target for their, whom they have a negative social relationship with. say, oftentimes the president is being picked, Donald Trump, and there are,
PJ Wehry (25:12.422)
You
Rebecca (25:36.61)
But it's like he's the president. I have to follow, even if I don't like him. Even if I have a negative, I have to maintain this negative relationship because I want to know what he's doing or saying. So there is kind of this in, in, in, in, inescapable personal relationship, negative personal relationships. And then there are ones that are more like hopeful or disappointed when you started watching it, having your hopes high, or it was really good.
PJ Wehry (25:53.542)
Hmm.
Rebecca (26:05.398)
and then it derailed, but you're still like forcing yourself to finish the book, finish the series, finish the episode, even though you don't like that anymore, even if you disagree with it, or because you're hoping that it will get better. we hypothesize we haven't found support for it yet, we assume that members of underrepresented groups, for example, ethnic minorities or
LGBTQ folks who have fewer opportunities to see positive role models in the media. Every time there is a representation of their group, they feel compelled to support it and show support and also hope that it will be a good representation even if ultimately they are disappointed. So they have to watch it even though they don't like it. But I think the one that I'm...
PJ Wehry (27:01.67)
Mmm.
Rebecca (27:03.91)
most curious about and one of the biggest segments is that kind cynical one where people enjoy derive enjoyment from watching something because they think that it's like it's so bad it's good it's and we showed in our research how it's this tied to kind of some feeling of moral superiority and and moral judgment
So you're watching it in order to disparage it. So it could be for quality, right? Like their acting is so horrible and, but it can be for morality purposes, like this reality show and the choices that they're making and the behaviors that they're exhibiting. so it's, there are different types of,
love, one in regular relationships, like there is like the more platonic one, right, like more friendship one, there is the more like a romantic one, erotic one, and then there is a ludic one, which is that kind of playful, like when people see relationships as a game and they're so so so that's a little bit like that kind of relationship when you are kind of torturing the other person, you're not taking it seriously.
PJ Wehry (27:54.982)
Ha
Rebecca (28:21.134)
you're enjoying it in a kind of sarcastic way. So, yeah.
PJ Wehry (28:27.12)
How do you spell ludic if you don't mind my asking?
Rebecca (28:29.662)
I think it's L-U-D-I-C, so Ludic love style.
PJ Wehry (28:33.474)
Okay, thank you.
PJ Wehry (28:38.701)
I'd like to I'm gonna definitely steal that. I appreciate that. I'm reminded of I don't know if you've read on writing by Stephen King. I've tried to do my own writing, that sort of thing. One of the things he thinks he mentions is that it's good not only to read good writing, but also to read bad writing, because it will encourage you that like if they can get published, then so can I. And I will say that has been you know, you read someone
Rebecca (29:02.862)
Yeah.
PJ Wehry (29:06.66)
Like, that is a classic author, and like, I could never do that. And then you read, like, some people that have been published, and you're like, well, if they could get published, and I think there's... I know it's out there. You're definitely on to something. I think everyone has felt that. That's great.
So now I'm curious, there's the initiation, the evolution, but you talk about methods and measuring and you've talked about some of the studies you do. How do you, what are some of the methods and the measurements you use with parasocial relationships?
Rebecca (29:40.398)
Yeah, so a lot of, I would say to a large extent for social relationship measures are based on self-report. So those are just questions on the scale, typically asking people about like to what extent, you know, this media personality makes you feel like you are with a friend to what extent you like hearing their voice or you miss them when they are not around. So questions like that.
There are qualitative studies that really have more like an interview set up where trying to understand your experience more in depth and more focusing on your feelings, behaviors, and your history with that character. I know I have friends and colleagues.
Bradley Bond, who's been doing some work with physiological measures, showing that the way people respond to their favorite characters that they have personal relationships with is following the same pattern of physiological reaction to when you see a friend or think about a friend. But for the most part, it is self-report.
PJ Wehry (31:03.664)
Well, and because it's fanciful, we do kind of take that as mostly accurate. I mean, they might feel uncomfortable. They might lie about how much, you know, some people are kind of embarrassed, but because it's fanciful and in their head, it's basically accurate because they know what they're feeling. Do you have any ways of dealing with the embarrassment kind of thing where people are not honest about? Yeah.
Rebecca (31:11.916)
you
Rebecca (31:20.686)
I
Rebecca (31:26.126)
Well, well, I mean, other than, you know, surveys are anonymous and interviews, you kind of try to create a report with the with with interview. But the I think one of the interesting things is that I find how.
PJ Wehry (31:35.788)
yes.
Rebecca (31:47.128)
parasocial state, one of the things I've been, before I started studying hate, I studied love. So my first interest was in romantic parasocial relationships. I was seeing everywhere the assumption that social romantic relationships is something that only women and girls are doing. But nonetheless,
PJ Wehry (31:58.343)
Hmm.
Rebecca (32:12.992)
almost every sample or say every sample I worked with, be it college students, be it a national sample, be it a sample of teenagers, there was no significant difference in the intensity of the parasocial romantic relationships reported by men and by women. And so it's not part of our cultural narrative, but nonetheless, men report on an anonymous survey this
PJ Wehry (32:25.324)
Interesting.
PJ Wehry (32:31.206)
Hmm.
Rebecca (32:42.764)
the same levels.
PJ Wehry (32:45.171)
And probably, do you think it would be different if it wasn't anonymous?
Rebecca (32:50.03)
It might be. know that anecdotally, I know that when I talk about it in the classroom, I have fewer guys sharing their personal experiences.
PJ Wehry (32:54.226)
Yes
PJ Wehry (33:04.356)
That's really, yes. And of course, yeah. that's really, that's really interesting. I would not have, I would not have guessed that, right? That's not part of the cultural narrative. Thank you. That's really helpful. So, and at the end, you kind of end the whole book by talking about the need for comparative research and kind of, if I understand across cultures, in that it's been very kind of Western focused.
Why do we need that? I think the answer to that is kind of obvious, but I'd love to hear you spell it out. just maybe even anecdotally, what do you think are going to be some of the differences?
Rebecca (33:43.16)
So it's not entirely Western focused. There are a lot of researchers that collect data in East Asian cultures, especially China, but some in Korea and other, there are definitely been studies all over Europe and Israel and America and Africa and South Africa countries, but it is...
PJ Wehry (33:55.232)
Okay. yeah.
Rebecca (34:12.93)
But there are fewer studies that do a head-to-head comparison between different cultures and understanding the cultural nuances in how, say, romantic parasocial relationships are exhibited in different cultures or what facilitates parasocial relationships in different cultural contexts.
PJ Wehry (34:17.158)
Rebecca (34:37.716)
because we know that there are differences in how social relationships are norms around them, but also norms around media consumption, like what is frowned upon, what is encouraged. You could expect to find some of those differences. So we do know that parasocial relationships occur pretty much everywhere. There are a lot of similarities in how they operate, but there are
But I think there is an opportunity to find out more about how they are different or in which ways they would be different or under which conditions they would be different. And I think it can help us learn more about cultures, but also about us as humans in general and about this phenomenon that ultimately, you know, we all share the same neural structure, right? But we have different experiences and different contexts that
PJ Wehry (35:29.382)
Yeah.
Rebecca (35:36.362)
manifested differently.
PJ Wehry (35:38.695)
Yes. So, and I'm curious, it's a little bit of a return to an earlier question. You were talking about some of the positives, there's the social benefits and the positive causes. Do you also see where someone is lacking positive role models? Do you see that kind of like in philosophy, you'll talk about exemplars, excellent examples of a category?
Is that another benefit? It feels like that could even be across different cultures treated differently.
Rebecca (36:14.112)
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know the answer to that. I mean, it is an empirical question to investigate, in general, not specific to par social relationships and not specific to culture, but role models are important. Seeing yourself and your experiences represented is extremely important. At the same time, seeing others that are not like yourself.
PJ Wehry (36:17.573)
Okay.
Rebecca (36:39.258)
maybe others that you don't have opportunity to meet in real life is extremely important. We call it parasocial contact. So there is this idea, again, going back to classic psychological theories from the 1950s from Alfred about the contact hypothesis. So the idea that a lot of our negative intergroup dynamics come from fears and anxieties, lack of knowledge about others.
and having a direct contact with people from a different group and having, but under the right set of circumstances, when it's a positive experience, when you are working together towards a common goal, when they are seen as prototypical representations of their group, like those things will facilitate a more positive general.
view of that group so that positivity from the interaction with the alt group member will generalize to seeing the group as a whole in a more positive light. And then it's been taken to the mediated context and say, okay, I don't have to actually work with somebody, it's enough for me to watch somebody on television and identify with them or have a personal relationship with them. Or maybe
it's also helpful for me to see someone who is a member of my own group interacting with an out group member. So someone from my ethnic background interacting with someone, a character that is of a different ethnicity. And they, and if I have a parasocial relationship with someone who or identify with someone who is my in group, their positive experience kind of vicariously experienced by me and my social network now includes those
PJ Wehry (38:15.398)
Mm.
Rebecca (38:31.726)
characters from other groups. So there are many studies that have demonstrated it in different contexts, different types of social groups and how that works. So that answers your question.
PJ Wehry (38:47.418)
Yeah, know it's a great answer. I appreciate it. I just had Glenn McDonald on. used to be a data alchemist at Spotify and his passion is music. And one of the things he mentioned was it's music, music and food. He said are the two easiest ways to have positive experiences that allows to do that kind of parasocial contact. Right. You know, I've I've experienced that I've never been to Eastern Europe, but I've experienced
Eastern Europe music, Eastern European music, that sort of thing. you see that with food, like when we have different restaurants open up, it's really fascinating. And that's how you see cultures eventually blend together and be able to create real community with other people. that, mean, am I on the right track with that? Are those good examples?
Rebecca (39:21.059)
Mm-hmm.
Rebecca (39:42.222)
I think this is one, I think these are other ways in which you can do that, so exposure to other cultures, but I think each of them also has their individual or kind of unique to them components, like for example music is a very powerful way of expanding people's cultural acceptance.
PJ Wehry (39:56.794)
Yes.
Rebecca (40:07.214)
because music has a very strong effect on people's brains and it's unique lead to music things. it's also like has this, notion of like synchronized synchronization. If you are like listening to music with other people, like you're all like all your hearts start beating at the, you know, synchronized to the music you're, you're all tapping, you're feeling part of the community. So it has all those other things that make them.
PJ Wehry (40:14.95)
Mm.
PJ Wehry (40:21.68)
Yeah.
Rebecca (40:36.832)
so powerful and I would just say yes, like on the list of different ways in which you can open yourself to other cultures, one of them would be through parasocial relationships, which is a different mechanism, but it's also on the menu.
PJ Wehry (40:54.114)
Yes. Yes. Well, and so like when you talk about the Beatles, it's not the Beatles music, though that's how they kind of connect. It's that they it's the actual Beatles that we're talking about with parasocial. So like it's it's not you choose music per se. It's like when people are actually feel connected to Bono. If that OK, OK, yes, that makes sense.
Rebecca (41:08.471)
Yes.
Rebecca (41:14.03)
Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then if you have a music performer or an actor who is from a different culture or a different ethnic background or transgender and you are a cisgender person, it breaks those barriers that you would encounter in everyday lives.
PJ Wehry (41:26.564)
Yes.
Rebecca (41:41.696)
generalizes that positivity to other members of that group.
PJ Wehry (41:46.267)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you. So I want to be respectful of your time, but I did want to ask you, and I kind of end almost every episode this way, for someone who's listened to us talk for the last little bit, besides buying and reading the excellent book that you worked on, what is something that you would recommend someone who's listened to us?
do or meditate on over the next week.
Rebecca (42:21.294)
That's a tough question.
PJ Wehry (42:25.989)
I, I, I, that's, that's a common response. Don't feel bad at all.
Rebecca (42:32.014)
I think that in general, I encourage people to self-reflect and be self-aware. A little bit like what you said about how we police other people's media choices but are not always aware of our own.
PJ Wehry (42:43.406)
Hmm. Yeah.
Rebecca (42:55.208)
maybe a good practice to like ask yourself who are your parasocial friends and what and are they good what what do they do for you and how you
PJ Wehry (43:00.752)
Hmm.
Rebecca (43:11.168)
invest in a good relationship. Does that count as an answer?
PJ Wehry (43:13.766)
Mmm.
PJ Wehry (43:17.37)
Yeah, I think that's a great. Yeah, that's a great. mean, that's that's immediately where my mind would go. As you're talking about, it's like, especially because you're not affecting them. Right. Like, I mean, maybe a little bit with support in money or attention, but it's like, are they helping you become the sort of person you want to be?
Rebecca (43:37.166)
Yes. No, if anything, people actually that I have been interviewing in my qualitative work would think of like buying their merge or, you know, using their promo code for something as a way to support them. Like that's my way of giving back to them. So, yeah. So people feel like they're, they're investing and they're putting our allegiance there. yeah. And so I think, being aware of it being.
mindful of that and being intentional about that.
PJ Wehry (44:09.774)
Yeah, great answer. Dr. Forster, it's been wonderful having you on today. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
PJ Wehry (44:21.159)
Let me, I don't. For some reason, all right, that'll get cut out. Did you? Wait, hit the wrong thing? That was exciting.