084 | Billy Abbott | Blends, Single Malts & Old vs. New Ways of Drinking Whisk(e)y | The Whisky Exchange

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, I discuss the evolution of the whisk(e)y industry over the past 15 years with guest Billy Abbott.

We delve into the global expansion of whiskey production, the increasing consumer interest in niche markets, and the role of cocktails and serves in modern whiskey consumption.

Billy shares insights on how new expressions and innovations are shaping the industry while they also explore the significance of brand identity and consumer engagement.

The conversation highlights the changes in whisk(e)y production, marketing, and consumer preferences, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in whisk(e)y.

00:00 Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast

00:28 Diving into the World of Drinks Brands

00:54 The Evolution of Whiskey

01:49 Whiskey Trends and Market Changes

04:27 Exclusive Bottlings and Store Picks

09:48 Consumer Preferences and Market Expansion

19:25 Whiskey in Cocktails and Occasions

22:43 Brand Identity and Marketing Strategies

33:12 Wrapping Up and How to Connect

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Billy Abbott

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Billy Abbott

Drinks Write | Ambassador | The Whisky Exchange

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

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Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
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episode transcripts.
Now let's dive into today's

episode.
If we go back to the drinks

brands, it's also like very few
brands have got a, a clear

vision of what they want to do
for consumers, for the drinkers,

you know, and sometimes it's
just like they, they just want

fame and money.
I, I just want to scale my

brand, you know, but how?
And it's like, no, I just want

to skate.
I want to be in supermarkets.

I want to have world domination.
It's very interesting,

especially because a tough
world, I mean like have you

haven't been there like for so
many years, for example, like in

the let's forward on whiskey
just to focus on a category, but

how have you seen the
development of the whiskey world

in the last 15 years if.
You look at the worldwide sort

of like whiskey thing.
Whiskey has become big.

One of the sort of stock things
I'm checking out at the moment

while talking to people about
whiskey is the term world

whiskey.
I just say, well, world whiskey

doesn't make sense to term
anymore because whiskey's just

made everywhere.
So world whiskey is just whiskey

made in other places and
increasing those other places

are just the same as everywhere
else.

You know, it used to be Scotland
Island, America, Canada, but we

didn't talk about them.
And then Japan joined the gang

and India joined the gang.
But now we've got France and

Germany and Mexico.
A few guys in Poland's been the

Czech Republic.
South Africa has a load of stuff

down there for ages, and you've
got Finland, Norway and Sweden

over them.
Denmark let's whiskey's

popularity in general has just
grown.

People drink whiskey more and
more and if you step outside of

the regular people world, people
who drink whiskey with a mixer

because that's what people do,
you don't drink neat spirits

unless you're sort of like
sitting around being so like

doing shooters or sitting around
trying to be fancy with a cigar

and all that sort of thing.
Most people drink whiskey with

mixers, but even outside of that
world is grown.

We've seen the the standard stat
thrown out in Scotland for

single malt whiskey used to be
5% single malt and then 95%

blended whiskey.
We set seems to be about 15

percent, 95% now.
So much more of the high end

stuff is disappearing out there
into the world.

There's a much wider range of
everything.

Every single brand is reaching
for something new all the time.

You one of the things that
people are trying to, you know,

capitalize on is the market for
whatever the next new thing is

using new expressions to try and
drag people into their brand to

ensure that they might then buy
the the regular ongoing things,

regularly updating livery to
make sure that it's always got a

fresh new look.
You know, it's constant churn at

the moment in the whiskey world.
And as more players have got

involved, everything's
accelerating still, you know,

because if there's more people,
you still have to keep on

standing out.
So you have to change more

often.
You have to bring more things

in.
You know, I remember speaking

with Sikander, my old boss would
recorded some videos for a box

set we did called 20 whiskeys
that changed the world.

His main comment was 20 years
ago.

They might get from a brand one
new thing a year.

Most people wouldn't introduce a
new thing, it would just be

continuing on with what they
had.

I've often joked about Brooke
Laddie in the early 2000s.

Every time Jim McEwen coughed,
somebody wrote down an idea that

obviously Jim had had because
anything that came out of his

brain or whatever noise was
written down as a new

expression.
I think I did some stats on them

and in the 1st 10 years after
reopening they were pushing out

some main like 10 year
expressions a year.

Almost every month they have
something new on the shelf.

You know, we've seen that from a
lot of places and it's just a

lot of it's to smaller consumer
bases, you know, to the geek

market rather than to be the
connoisseur market, not the geek

market.
As a whiskey myself, I know

where I sit.
So those are more niche markets

who are not people who are
buying some more mass market

products.
We see bottlings from big

companies of like 2 or 300
bottles, you know, single gas

going out and selling and being
so allocated little bits in

pieces here and there because it
won't sell loads of it, but it

brings up prestige and they can
do that regularly with sort of

like economies of scale these
days to be able to fire out lots

of these little casks.
We see a lot more store picks as

the American terminology, you
know, exclusive bottlings where

the whiskey exchange do quite a
lot.

We've seen the sort of rise from
10 to 20 to 30 to 4050, sixty,

7080 upwards per year of these
things we've been.

Can you can you explain a bit
more for those who who don't

know under the store picks?
It's basically a way for a shop

to have, so nobody else has.
So Whiskey Exchange, for

example, we either.
But for these sorts of things

we, we work with brands.
And so we'll go to an example of

one we've done recently for our
whiskey show.

We worked with the Spirit of
Yorkshire Distillery up near

Filey in Yorkshire.
So their brand File eBay, they

did us a special single cast
bottling of file eBay, finished

in an IPA beer cask.
And they've got a big following,

but they did it especially for
us.

And they sent out an e-mail
saying you can't buy this from

our distillery, you have to go
to the whiskey exchange.

And so it's this thing of you
choose a special bottling, which

then is only available from the
shop.

So the stores picked it.
And you know, it's been a big

thing in the US for a while for
bourbon distilleries, and it's a

big thing over here for a lot of
the shops, although you have to

hit a certain size before you
can start happily selling out

150 bottles of a particularly
niche product.

I see it myself, you know, Like,
I haven't been a whiskey drinker

for a while.
I used to have this kind of

like, I don't know, maybe a
couple of bottles my father had

in open for whatever, like 15
years.

That's the standard way of
starting, yes.

And then I started to get more
and more involved and, you know,

like, also like that thing was
like when suddenly listening to

you and you know, and like,
Paul, let's go and all these,

all these guys back in days and
Maurice Doyle and, and, and so

on and where I see where's
whiskey now versus what it was

even just like five years ago,
to be honest.

You know, it's another world.
It feels like, or when you were

going for the countries, it felt
like the the Six Nations rugby.

Now it's like every every year
there's a new there's a new

playing coming.
In five nations, our Six

Nations, I'm just looking behind
me because I've got a copy of,

but called A Long Stride.
It's The History of Johnny

Walker by Nick Morgan.
It's a really good book about if

you want to learn about the joys
of the development of a brand

developer of marketing over the
past hundreds, some years.

But the thing about it, you can
see in it is this cycle of

history.
This is something I interviewed

Nick about the book after it
came out.

And we're just talking about
this whole thing of single malts

are really big in the Scottish
whiskey world because there

weren't any blends.
And the idea of blended whiskey

was a thing which came later.
And so as that rose, the

popularity of blended whiskey,
the largest selling category

still of whiskey in the world,
grew and grew, became so well

famous.
And now we see it dipping off

again as people start leaning
back towards these other styles

of whiskey as the price points
of risky change as the market in

general changes.
And this is a great book which

just shows sees that history so
in situ with a, with a classic

example of one of the biggest
whiskey brands in the world.

I also remember years and years
ago, I was mostly just a Blogger

who occasionally, well, I went
for whiskey exchange, I think at

the time, but I was a random
Blogger as well.

And there was a whole discussion
of can we make whiskey now like

we did back in the 1960s?
Trish The answer is it'll

probably cost a lot more money
now to make it than it did back

in the 1960s because we now have
so many processes of efficiency

brought into the distilleries.
The production process, the

logistics process of actually
getting stuff out into the world

has totally changed.
And so even in the short scale

of looking back over the last
five, 10-15 years, everything

within the whiskey world from
the point from the farm where

the grain is harvested all the
way through to the point of

where we ship something out and
dump it on a shop shelf, all of

that has changed.
And all of that has led to all

of these different changes where
that will change the market.

And then there's in that
classics or butterfly effects or

ripple back and forth through
the whole of the market as all

these little logistical changes
will affect pricing in one

place, which will affect the
ease of getting things in

another place.
The fact that we now have all of

these exclusives used to take
ages to get an exclusive sorted.

It'll be like months and months
of back and forth.

And then you have to ship a
sample here and there.

You have to go visit the
distillery and now somebody just

sends a pack of samples that
they pull from the warehouse

because they they're used to
doing this.

Turns out we try the thing
saying we like sample C They are

brilliant.
Here's a predesigned label.

Does that look good?
Yeah, Stamp of approval, bang

out the door, turn around on
these.

I was speaking to somebody today
about some labels for some

upcoming special releases we had
and saying, so when do we want

to get these out?
It's like November.

It's like we need to send these
labels out like yesterday to the

people printing them for us.
He's like, oh, no, don't worry

about it, it's all fine.
So good.

Or send them next week.
They'll print them or be sorted

on the bottles, but they'll be
here within four weeks.

Wow.
OK.

That's.
Yeah, we had these logistical

changes have allowed that sort
of thing to happen a lot faster.

So we've seen those sorts of
things explode.

But yeah, just as a lot of a lot
more of ability in the whiskey

world at the moment to move
quickly that we didn't have

beforehand, which we need to now
with the way the market in

general in the world is.
People want something different

when something new.
They want something tailored to

them and over the past 15 years,
those are, you know, 10-15

years.
It's just really changed to

allow a lot more of that.
When you're talking to consumers

and to, you know, doing your
trainings, like do you see

people leaning into a certain
thing?

So the is, is there like a
Scotch drinker or a bourbon

drinker or, you know, like or,
or, or is it more like people

that are can, let's say
connoisseurs?

I was going to say geeks that go
into these all these more

releases and store pics.
And then there's the store pics,

kind of guy or girl, How, how,
how, how does it work?

Because like scotches, it's very
varied now, you know, and

there's the Ryze and the
bourbon, the corn, you know,

like Scotch and Ile and Spisa,
you know, like, is there like a

particular style of that people
like usually or can people

travel between categories?
I think it's a lot more so now

that people do travel between
categories.

So you don't you a few years
ago, you know, especially when I

started, if you said to me
describe one of our connoisseur

customers, I would just like
point at me because I was an

absolute stereotypical example
of one of our customers who

would say, hello, what's your
latest single cast release?

What's your latest exclusive?
What can I get nowhere else.

Do you have this sort of thing?
Oh, no, no, no, I can't drink a

46% bottle.
I must have a cast strength

whiskey because I don't like
things that I'm strong.

And there's a very specific set
of things and a sort of niche

where you can sort of see the
styles of spirits, whether

whiskey or what else that people
would want from that little

category.
But over the years that's really

widened.
Pretty much anybody can now walk

into the shop and you can't be
sure of where they sit.

And this is the thing I was
saying about talking to people

because there's been a much
wider acceptance of this of the

geekery.
They can't associate market or

that in the spirits world.
You know, rum especially we've

seen over the past decade has
gone from being a drink that

wasn't considered particularly
serious outside of a very small

niche into seeing that grow into
almost like a whiskey level back

1015 years ago.
Group of people who are

interested in the more niche
aspects of rum.

They're not out there just
grabbing a bottle of Captain

Morgan or even a bottle of Mount
Gay.

They're saying hello, can I have
this very specific value release

of Foursquare, please?
And it's like now we can't get

that anymore because it sells
out quickly in Italy.

It's that whole thing of you see
that expansion, but in whiskey,

it's been huge.
You know, it's across social

backgrounds, it's across gender,
it's across ages.

You have no longer is it just
the guy in his 40s who likes

interesting whiskey.
It's everybody from people who

just started drinking through to
people who have retired and

everything in between, which is
great.

But that widening has also
driven that expansion in the

market of lots of different
niches of things.

You know, lots of different
stuff is out there because

there's lots more people who
want it.

And it's a good thing because it
means that, you know, when I go

to our whiskey show, like this
weekend, it's a huge range of

interesting people to talk to.
I have lots of geeky friends who

are like me and I can go and
speak to them whenever I want

to.
So the old whiskey show where I

just walking around going, Oh
yes, it's the same gang as

normal is great for one thing.
But this year's walking around

and sort of meeting people from
all over the world, from all

walks of life who were not those
sort of stereotypical whiskey

people, but people who like
whiskey.

And that's one of the things
we're seeing quite a lot.

And it's a thing.
We're running a campaign at the

moment with the Whiskey
Exchange.

It's a hashtag.
We are whiskey.

And it's just saying there are
so many more people out there

that like whiskey than you
think.

You know, we have seen this huge
expansion.

A lot of people was just there
in the background in the past,

never talked about it.
But now people are coming out

into the wild as whiskey's
becoming more of a mainstream

thing.
We are seeing people just in

general saying, yeah, it's nice,
you know, actually talking about

the fact they're interested.
You know, used to be wine, but

you could quite happily talk
about wine and people would just

think, wouldn't think anything
of it.

But you talk about whiskey,
people would thought you were

weird.
People still think you're weird

if you talk too deeply about
whiskey, but not quite so much

as they once did.
And there's also like a little

bit more ways to recruit people
into the category now.

I'm not a big fan, for example,
of this flavor, you know,

whiskey.
Well, like you can call whiskey,

but you know, like all these
kind of things that I understand

that it's why companies are
doing it, but I'm not really a

big fan.
What's your opinion on that?

I mean, apart from a purist
perspective, but you know, like

from a commercial kind of like
angle, do people really go into

it?
You know, like if I'm a, let's

say, a gin drinker, I will never
drink whiskey.

Do I really go for a whiskey
with, you know, flavors or do I

actually wait and really wait
for the right sign and then

drink the traditional whiskey
kind of thing?

There is a conversion from
people drinking things like

flavored whiskeys into the
whiskey category.

I really don't think that's the
reason why Fireball exists.

You know, it's not there to
convert people into drinking

great whiskey down the line
because they used to sing

something says whiskey on the
label.

They're just making drinks which
taste nice and I think that's

where people should be focusing,
should be focusing on making a

great drink, not necessarily
making a great drink that will

convert someone into a different
category.

Maybe a great drink that will
bring someone into a brand and

make them explore the upper
reaches of a brand's portfolio,

things like that.
I can understand that sort of

design.
I think the big one for me to

demonstrate that isn't whiskey
at all, it's gin.

Because you know, we've seen
this huge gin boom.

I don't know how much we see
outside the UK.

The UK is obscene with the
amount of gins we have out

there.
The US has never been huge

market for gin, but I know
that's growing as well as we see

a lot more craft producers
bringing things and all over the

world we see more gin out there,
the UK.

Is pretty much the same
everywhere.

Like I think UK is freezing, but
you know, the next level is the

rest of the world and I think
it's pretty similar.

But the thing about gin is that
there's a load of companies who

make flavored gins, gin
liqueurs, so they're about the

20 to 25% mark ABV.
They've got added sugar and

their gin with a load of
flavorings in there.

And they're fine products.
Many men, they're not my thing,

but many of them are very well
made products And people

drinking with soda.
We have orange juice, we have

other mixes with tonic, you
know, that sort of thing.

But the consumers aren't
educated in what they are.

So the consumers refer to them
as gin rather than as gin

liqueurs or flavored gins or
whatever.

And so some of the bigger
brands, they've almost switched

entirely to focusing on these
things.

And when you speak to consumers,
they say, oh, I love gin.

Yeah, I like that Raspberry one.
And you realize that they don't

actually like gin.
They like gin liqueurs, a

totally different thing.
And those liqueurs, despite the

fact that people are confusing
them with the overarching

category of gin, they don't move
on from it.

They don't come into the
category, you know, we flavored

whiskey.
You give someone peanut butter

screwball or whatever it is, you
know, ridiculous American

whiskey that just tastes like
eating peanut butter and

chocolate out of a jar.
You try these, right?

These things and they're really
interestingly flavored.

They're often really actually
quite well put together.

Some of them are terrible.
I judge the American Destiny

Institute judging every now and
again, the ADI, and they have a

flavored whiskey category.
And some of them when they come

through, the whole panel is
actively shocked about how good

they are.
They have more sort of like

natural flavors or really
artificial flavors that work

because sometimes eating a
handful of old school gummy

bears is quite nice.
Sometimes you want to eat some

taste of fruit.
At no point in time, if I really

ever heard any evidence, and I
could be entirely wrong, this is

anecdotal from my sort of thing,
that they've ever converted

anybody.
So yeah, you know, the big one

for me is Fibal, the biggest
flavored whiskey in the world.

I don't even know they call it
flavored whiskey anymore.

I think they took out all the
whiskey and replaced it with

neutral spirit.
Even when it said whiskey on the

label, you know, it was not
converting people.

The thing which I think converts
people is people trying stuff.

And you say there's loads
different ways to sell into a

consumer and most different ways
to bring consumer into a

category.
And again, from where I sit, I

see certain things and, you
know, people coming in and

coming to a tasting, being
brought by their friends.

And the thing for me, I think
very, very powerful is that word

of mouth thing.
People say, come along for a

social event, come and try a
thing through bars, you know,

through serves and things like
that.

You know, someone saying that
sounds interesting.

I don't like whiskey.
And someone say, oh, don't

worry, it doesn't taste like
whiskey.

They try it and they realize
maybe they want to dive into

components of it are you don't
need to drink whiskey on its

own, drink it in a cocktail,
drink it, you know, with Coke,

drink it with soda, whatever,
and bringing people into

categories by giving them the
opportunity to try it.

The way I've always talked about
visitor centers and tastings is

if a brand has a visitor center
and people come to it or brand

runs a tasting and runs a really
good tasting, when people leave,

they are brand ambassadors for
that company now.

And they will go and tell their
friends.

And if each of those gets two of
their friends to try the drink

and it's that sort of thing,
those sorts of words of mouth

and but giving the opportunities
for those sort of things to

happen, I think is a really
important bit.

You mentioned like the recruit,
the recruiting, you know, like

the is it, is it like an
occasion kind of thing or, or

can it be like, is it what I
want to try to get to there?

For example, for me, whiskey is
something easy to drink, like

with a cocktail.
I started from a cocktail point

of view, you know, because then
it was I don't think I like

whiskey.
So let me try on something that

it's actually good.
But for me, the transition was

like I'm an I'm an A girly
drinker.

I discovered that I can switch
to gym for the whiskey starts

with bourbon, but then I go into
Scotch, I go into Irish and I

can do it however I want it.
And then for me was a safe

entry.
But then maybe for some other

people could be different kind
of occasion.

How do you think like that this
recruitment into the whiskey

category happens apart from what
you already said about, you

know, like going to events and
doing this 10 figs.

Whiskey especially is a drink
which has got so many sort of

things loaded upon it.
People look at it in different

ways.
If you get Sonic glass of

whiskey on its own, that is a
whole social construct around

that.
If you're me and you're a

whiskey geek and you've gone
around to somebody's house and

you've had dinner and you pull
out a bottle of whiskey after

dinner and say, here, try this.
People might go, Oh yes, please,

let's see what that's like.
If I pull that out at lunchtime

while sitting around sort of
thing, just having a chat, my

whiskey friends would go, oh,
amazing, what is it?

And they'll sit there, drink it.
But the average normal person

look at you and go, do we need
to have an intervention of some

kind at this point?
You know, and so it's all as you

say, it's about those occasions
about understanding those.

And with the whiskey world,
there's been a load of work on

that from a loss of the brands
and you saw out cocktails and

things.
It's cocktails and serves is.

We think, I hate the word surf
for submarine, but it works, you

know, it's that whole thing.
It's how how do you present the

whiskey?
And it is when you start getting

one people I think quite good at
this is Glen Moringy.

There's Glen Moringy's whiskey,
the 10 year old and the 12 year

old.
They've now released a very

versatile, you can drink them on
their own.

You can stick them in a
cocktail.

They taste like whiskey when you
do.

So they still have a little bit
of luxury feel to them as well.

So people, that's what fits in
with the occasion as well.

And so you can have a thing
where before dinner, you can

give someone a whiskey and soda
or a whiskey cocktail of some

kind at lunchtime if you're
outside so that you can drink a

whiskey and soda and you will
not seem to be somebody just

nicking drams at midday.
You can then make that into some

more interesting drinks later on
at night.

You can then shove it into a
glass on its own.

You can drink it with ice.
You can do all these anything

you want to do with that whiskey
because it's versatile.

You can do with it and you can
slot it into lots of different

occasions.
You can make it as fancy as you

want.
You can make it as UN fancy as

you want.
The classic sort of one.

This time of year I've been
thinking about Reese's or BBQ.

People come over to your house
to have a drink and have some

food.
But something like a highball,

something like a whiskey and
coke, something like all those

sorts of things, you can drink
all the way through the

afternoon and you can switch and
change the complexities you go

through.
See, occasion is really

important, but it doesn't work
for every brand.

And again, it's different brands
will do different things.

Pulling one just straight out of
nowhere.

No, it's already certain.
I don't even have any samples

from my desk of these guys.
So Glen Anarchy, mostly I think

about them because it's run by
Billy Walker.

And until recently, if you typed
in Billy Whiskey into Google,

you got me.
Now you get him, which is very

annoying.
He has been working in the

industry for like 60 or 70
years, so I can't complain very

much.
But still, he's beating me on

Google Now.
But Glenn Anarchy is not a brand

where people are going to stick
that in the soda.

We're going to stick it in a
cocktail.

It is aimed squarely at people
who drink whiskey, meat or maybe

with some mice in it, and the
style is often quite heavy and

quite based on the liquid.
I'm not a big fan of their

livery and many of the people
who like their whiskey aren't a

big fan of what the packaging
looks like, but they don't

really care.
That's not really what it's

there for.
It's literally just to appeal to

bring in some new people, but
people who know it already.

It's all about a slightly more
connoisseur geeky audience who

aren't going to jump in
different occasions.

So the occasion for that is
almost certainly never going to

be lunchtime hanging out with
your mates unless you make sort

of whiskey geeks later on
sitting around with glasses of

whiskey to celebrate something
or to finish your day or

whatever.
And so, yeah, different brands

will approach in different ways
and it is very much all part of

that brand identity, the
occasion and who you're

targeting, what sort of people
you will want to drink your

drink.
You know, they're marginally

absolutely everybody, every
point.

If you go through a range, they
have expressions to hit.

Even Glen Anarchy fans, you
know, bigger, richer, darker

things.
But other brands will say, no,

we'll stick with our niche.
We're not going to dive into

that world.
I still remember going up to

visit a distillery manager, many
of my first ever distillery

trip, when I started working in
the whiskey industry.

And we got to one of the
distilleries and we were warned

in advance that the distillery
manager was not a fan of this

whole cocktails business.
And they decided that his

whiskey in the range was going
to be the whiskey they put in

cocktails.
And actually, based on the style

of it, it's.
Yeah.

How's that versatility?
It would work very well.

I like the whiskey on its own,
but it does work well in

cocktails.
And they sent him a load of the

POS that they put together for
mixing the drinks.

And the marketing team turned up
and very ostentatiously, there

was a bin left outside the door
of the distillery with all the

marketing materials just jammed
in the top of it, just left

there ready for them to arrive
and see.

And they just turned around and
left when they never mentioned

it again.
There is still, you know, a lot

of that bias against that in
some places.

And it works really well with
some brands.

But to bring in the wider
consumer world, a lot of brands

are realizing you need to do
that.

But it doesn't jar when often
they go from being out.

We're a little distillery.
We, this is all the details of

all of our stuff that we're
doing.

And here's an interesting
cocktail with a gigantic leaf

sticking out of it.
And it's like, it's getting that

sort of like, you know, aligning
those things together so that

you don't alienate either the
more connoisseur groups or the

more mainstream groups by giving
them too much information or

dumbing things down too much all
at the same time.

I go to launches, occasion wise,
they're great.

So they bring in a load of
influencers from outside of the

drinks.
Well, they bring a load of

drinks press in.
They bring sort of like, you

know, retailers and sort of
drinks bloggers and people there

and the ones which work really
sort of hits all the different

areas.
So you have interesting

cocktails, you have simple
serves, you have whiskey on its

own.
You have somebody can tell you

about production, you have
somebody can tell you why the

boxes are beautiful.
And then other ones you turn up

and someone will just say to all
these influencers, well, of

course you want to about cast
finishing or you get other ones

or we just said someone turns up
and says, yeah, I'm the

designer.
No, I can't tell anything about

the whiskey again.
So it's shake mobbing those

occasions now, even when it's
individuals throwing a party,

having people over, sharing
drinks.

Yeah, making sure you have the
right sort of idea for those as

well.
Is there like a rule of thumb,

like of course I'm generalizing
now, but something like, I don't

know, blended whiskey are good
for cocktails and mixers and

single moles and knots and cats
quote, you know, like, did you

have like a segmentation in
mind?

In the past, very much more so
than now.

And this is the thing you've
sort of seen this, this building

of complexity within the whiskey
world.

You know, 20 years ago, 15 years
ago, even if you use whiskey in

a cocktail or in a long drink of
any kind whatsoever, it would be

a blended whiskey.
The idea of mixing with single

malt was just like absolutely
verboten.

It was just a proper sort of
like, oh really?

You, you've disrespected the
master distillers families, the

10th generation.
My little brother used to live

in Scotland.
He used to tell me off adding

water to whiskey.
You've spat on the grave of the

master distiller as he sat there
drinking his 43% whiskey's that

he's just bought, which had been
watered down before they went in

the bottle.
And I was sitting there adding

water to my car strength
whiskey's.

But consumer education, he knows
now.

I've taught it, but it was very
much, you know, blended whiskeys

were the thing.
But increasingly, as the price

of single malts dropped.
And again, people are very

conscious about price when you
make mix things, if it's

expensive, you can't mix things
with it.

Yeah.
I don't really matter what it

is, it's like it's the price tag
to it.

You get a 23 year old on
discount that I didn't do a

Coxor.
With that's the thing in bars,

you don't see it because of
course it's the choice of GP and

you need to try and make sure
you keep everything profitable.

And you don't, you know, you
can't do a cocktail which is

going to be £30 ago because you
put, you know, nice spirits in

it.
One of the things that people

have seen complain about is, oh,
you put nice spirits in a

cocktail, That's ridiculous.
It's a waste.

It's like, no, if I use it and
the drink tastes nice, better

than potentially the, the sum of
the ingredients that you want,

the whole being bigger than the
sum of its parts, then it's

entirely worth it.
And I've made drinks using

incredible sort of like
whiskeys, which tastes great.

I've also seen some friends of
mine put a 70 year old Mortlock

at the time was like the oldest
whiskey ever released.

They had a tiny vial of it and
they put it into a cocktail that

was full of really smoky,
talisky car strength and a load

of fruit juice.
Didn't improve the cocktail.

Bit of a waste of whiskey back
in the day very much.

There was this hierarchy as
we've seen that spread across

all the categories.
You know, blended whiskey used

to get your Johnny Walker Blue
labels and your higher end

things, but now blended whiskey
even more than it once was.

It's a huge range.
You know, people, especially in

overseas markets, blended
whiskey doesn't have the slight

stigma attached to it in the
connoisseur market that it does

over in Europe especially.
You know, people don't like

spending lots of money on
expensive blended whiskies,

despite the fact that they may
taste amazing and may actually

be full of very expensive
components.

It's a blended whiskey.
Therefore, it's not as good as a

single malt whiskey, which held
up these pinnacles of

achievement, the production
process that doesn't make sense.

You know, if you're making a
blended whiskey, you'll need

somebody who is incredibly
talented to bring together

flavors from potentially
hundreds of different components

to make a thing, often a thing
which has to be exactly the same

as the last time you made it.
Whereas, you know, single cask,

even single malt whiskey, the
ultimate pinnacle of the

amazingness of Scotch whiskey.
You try three samples and say

that's best, can I have that
one?

And they go certainly put in a
bottle and you're done.

Not quite so much effort still.
Yeah, this is this sort of

stigma to it.
But now, yeah, you'll find

people doing a lot more mixing
with single malts.

Blended malts have grown as a
category.

They now actually are some.
They weren't really very many

for a long time.
Germany.

Still, you'll find the the lower
end expressions, you'll find a

lot more blends being used, but
only really when it's more being

used as in a generic way.
One of my least favorite things

in a cocktail recipe is if it
says 50 mil whiskey I get just

as annoyed D say that says 50
mil white rum because that also

means nothing.
I know in that case I have a

better idea of what they're
going to try and go for, but 50

mil of whiskey means almost
nothing because that's such a

wide range of different things.
50 mil of rum is a foolish thing

to stick on a recipe, and most
recipes wouldn't do that, They'd

be much more specific.
But whiskey never really got

that love of specificity when
talking about flavor matching

and things like that.
We don't have so many rules of

thumb now just because the
whiskey marble has grown, but

you'll generally see the lower
end whiskeys and blends being

used a lot more in generic
cocktails.

When you start getting to that
next level up of cocktail or

cocktail specifically created
rather than just an old one of

the old standards, you'll often
see specific brands in those

specific expressions in those
because the flavors in those

actually work with the cocktail
and the part of the creation of

that cocktail.
I'm also thinking like as a Vine

deal new World whiskey or how
when I call it like, you know,

that probably is less so because
the effort is still very much

onto the brand and into the you
know, like probably they don't

even want to go yet into the
cocktail world is more like for

the older countries, they're on
the blends of the older

countries that probably like
they are kind of like trying to

push that more in cocktails you.
See, in the old countries you

still see a lot of brands who
don't do that, but also in new

countries you see some who are
doing it.

But also we're getting to a
point now where a lot of the

newer countries have got to the
point now where they're just

another country where they make
whiskey.

I collect labels from cans and
bottles, so I'm interesting in

label art and branding.
So I've got books them all over

the place.
But today I was just before I

came on the podcast, I was
stripping some labels and had a

can of milk and honey Hybel.
So milk and honey in Israel,

they've now got to the point of
being happy enough to do a

canned Hybel with that whiskey.
And it was very nice.

I don't know if it's going to be
a commercial product, but it's

got a plastic wrap around the
can, which suggests it is a

commercial product.
But they've just got to the

point now where I can't remember
exactly how old they are, but I

think they're more than a decade
old now.

And so they have whiskey.
They are mature enough now to

say no, we're happy to throw our
stuff into cocktails.

Well, I've been to their events.
They always have a cocktail

created with one of their
whiskeys.

I went to as a joint event with
the Cos Force Distillery, and it

was a whiskey, which was a
combination of spirit from both

the disteries.
And they were not using that one

necessarily for making
cocktails, but they had spirit

from both Cotswolds and milk and
honey.

And they were saying we can do
you a smoky Manhattan using the

milk and honey stuff.
We can do you a long drink using

the Cotswold stuff, you know,
matching those flavor profiles.

Now.
Lots of these new distilleries,

you know, especially the guys
who are doing a little bit hand

selling maybe.
So if you've got a distillery

who was going to farmers markets
basically around the UK.

And so having a little stand or
going to little shows like food

and drink shows, you know, the
average person coming up is not

going to want to take a little
plastic cup full of neat

whiskey, but saying here's a
thing in a long drink that

brings in loads more of those
people.

So again, it comes down to the
occasion which the people are

sort of like being sold to the
point that the place you'll

bring people in, but a load of
those companies don't do that

sort of thing and they are only
appealing to the whiskey

drinkers who will drink things
so they don't have a need to.

So the big thing I've noticed
over the past decade is as we

have many more of these
companies, just the diversity of

the approaches has changed.
Everybody's trying everything.

Some people will stick with one
thing over time, but it's really

worth trying different
approaches because it all comes

down to how your brand is going
to sort of sell in in various

different places.
And yeah, seeing people try

stuff often for bringing people
they would never have thought

they would have got hold of.
And it's also like a little bit

like what what you're saying,
you know, like iterations.

And then at some point, you
know, like you say what it is

and what you believe in and what
you believe is good at and it's

good in and and so on.
And then at some point, you

know, you just leave it up to
them and then you collect this

kind of evidence and say, OK,
like should these guys are using

this one like this, this one
they're they're using like this.

And then you start to be like
fruitful thoughts for, for

different kind of occasions.
It's super, super, super, super

fascinating.
So it's a great, great, great

chat.
I think we can wrap it up to

you.
Like I'm, I'm, I'm aware of your

time.
We went a little bit over what

we have, we scheduled, but tell
us how can people find you and

how can get in touch with you?
I can they speak to you or

listen you or read you as a as a
rise of.

Oh yeah, I'm not as easy as I
once he was to find on the

Internet.
If you type Billy Whiskey and

you find Billy Walker, now I am
Billy Abbott ABBO TT2T's.

Search me around.
I'm up on LinkedIn and Facebook.

I'm Billy Abbott drinks on
Facebook.

I don't post much stuff up
there.

I meet Robot on Instagram
because there's a long story

there for another day.
I'm also billyabbott.co.uk.

You can find out everything I do
there and where I work and all

the bits and pieces I do.
I work for the Whiskey Exchange,

so the Whiskey exchange.com
loads of stuff all over there.

If you look at our YouTube
channel and our Instagram

channels especially, you'll see
a load of videos featuring me

and my lovely colleague Dawn
doing a lot of educational

stuff, talking about individual
drinks and brands.

I run a whiskey club with my
mate Elise here in London called

Whiskey Squad.
So whiskeysquad.com, I literally

about five hours ago released
our most recent upcoming

tasting.
So people aren't coming on to

those things.
We just run tastings in London

with me, Elise and random brands
Coming to talk rubbish about

whiskey.
If you might be able to tell, I

quite like talking and talking
about Boots.

So if anybody out there is
interested in having a chat

about anything, wants to drop me
a line, tell me I'm wrong.

I really like when people tell
me I'm wrong.

Weirdly, I am wrong a lot of the
time, and if people tell me

that, I can stop being wrong or
I could tell you you're wrong.

I'm very good at telling people
they're wrong on the Internet,

and there's so many people being
wrong on the Internet.

You know, if anybody ever wants
to drop me a line, please do.

Yeah.
You can find the whiskey

exchanges shows on the events
side of our website.

We have a whiskey show, We have
a champagne show, a cognac show,

a rum show, a tequila and mezcal
show starting next year, W101.

We have an introduction to
whiskey show brand new next year

as well, so loads of shows from
the Whiskey Exchange.

We have loads of tastings as
well regularly.

I will hopefully be getting out
around the country more often

now that I'm officially our
ambassador rather than doing it

on the side.
So if anybody out there has got

a whiskey club in the UK and
you'd like me to come and visit

you run a tasting, drop me a
line.

I am very easy to find at the
Whiskey Exchange.

I am Billy at the Whiskey
exchange.com so feel free to

drop me an e-mail.
Please don't insult me too much

if you do.
Oh, fantastic.

Thanks.
Thanks a lot, Billy.

That's a great wrap up and I I
hope to see you soon like in

person and have a couple of
drums together.

Excellent.
Definitely up for that.

Thank you.
Thank you.

That's all for today's My Third
Drinks podcast.

If you found value in this
episode, please leave a review

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Don't forget to check My Third

drinks.com for all our
resources, including episode

transcripts.
This is Chris Mafael, and

remember that brands are built
bottom up.