OFFBounds

In this episode of our new Retail Innovation Series with OFFBounds and Shoptalk Fall, I sit down with Alison Hiatt, the Chief Merchandising and Growth Officer at Vera Bradley, who stepped into her role in 2023 with the mission of leading a rebranding and turnaround for the beloved American brand.

Known for its vibrant, patterned bags, Vera Bradley had touched the hearts of many since the 80s but struggled to stay relevant with newer generations. Alison shares her journey of taking on this challenge, discussing the brand's rich heritage, the strategic decisions behind the rebranding efforts, and the innovative approaches being implemented to reconnect with both loyal fans and new customers.

We delve into the importance of authenticity, the cultural shifts within the company, and what this transformation means for the future of Vera Bradley. If you're interested in the intricacies of brand revival and what it takes to refresh an iconic name in today's competitive market, this episode is a must-listen.

Don't forget to join us at Shoptalk Fall in Chicago, where Alison will share more insights on stage.

20% Discount for Brand & Retailers
20% Discount for General Attendees

Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
1:02 Why Alison Accepted the Challenge for This Rebranding
3:34 The Process of Rediscovering the Brand
6:40 Understanding the New Customer
8:20 Changing Everything at Once
10:50 What People Should Feel When They See The Brand
13:10 How to Change the Culture
15:36 The Metrics and User-Generated Content
19:51 Shoptalk Fall and Gender Parity
21:34 Passionate About Marketing
24:00 What Makes a Good CMO
26:02 A CEO Alison Admires
28:12 Advice To Someone Who Is Starting
29:25 Final Remarks

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Studio: Podstream Studios
Production: Paula Macaggi
Edition: Bicho de Goiaba
Research: Lia Cabrini
Design: Gabriel Fischer
Partnership: Shoptalk Fall

Creators & Guests

Host
Paula Macaggi
Informing Commerce Leaders | Founder of OFFBounds - #1 Podcast for Commerce Leaders | Speaker | Reta Awards Judge | Top Retail Expert 2024
Guest
Alison Hiatt
Chief Marketing Officer | Chief Growth Officer at Vera Bradley Designs Inc.
Editor
Bicho de Goiaba Podcasts
A Brazilian podcast producer. Main clients: Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Grant Thornton, SKF and Alelo.

What is OFFBounds?

OFFBounds is a podcast where commerce executives share their perspectives, successes, and lessons learned in their careers to inspire other global leaders in their journey and decision-making.

Every week, the host Paula Macaggi meets industry leaders to discuss business strategies, careers, and leadership in one-on-one conversations challenging the limits of borders and boundaries.

Paula unveils the person behind the leader and brings to her audience of commerce executives experiences to relate, motivate, and reflect on decisions that are shaping commerce.

OFFBounds is the first podcast recorded in person with audio and video featuring executives in commerce from around the world.

Paula Macaggi:

Today, we'll talk about a brand that touches American hearts with nostalgia. Born in the eighties, Vera Bradley brought color to people's lives with their bags known for their vibrant patterns and print designs that brought joy to everyday life. However, despite its early success, the brand struggled to stay relevant with newer generations. Recognizing the need for change, new leadership took the helm in 2023 to lead a transformation. Joining me today here in New York is Alison Hyatt, Vera Bradley's chief marketing officer, to discuss the rebranding efforts and what we can expect from the brand moving forward.

Paula Macaggi:

Alison will be speaking at Shoptalk Fall, our favorite retail event, now has an extra edition in Chicago from 16th to 18th October. There's a discount link for our listeners in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing you there. Here's Paula Macaggi, and this is a special retail innovation series of my show. Welcome to Off Bounce. Hermes, I'm very excited that you are here today.

Paula Macaggi:

Welcome to the show.

Alison Hiatt:

Thank you. Me too.

Paula Macaggi:

Well, we have amazing products here. But first, I wanna hear from you how you took this job because I imagine that you have an accomplished career as a CMO. I've seen your resume. You've done great things in your life, and then you decided to join Farrah Bradley for a turnaround.

Alison Hiatt:

Yes. So a couple of different reasons that led me to jump into this. One, loving retail and always being up for a challenge. This was definitely going to be a challenge. I love learning my way through a challenge.

Alison Hiatt:

The second is you have a great brand. You have a great brand, great founder story, a lot of love for the brand. It's just fallen off of people's radar. So there's a challenge, and there's a challenge there to get people back get it back on their radar with some great products. And then last but not least, it's always about who are you conquering these challenges with.

Alison Hiatt:

And the CEO that brought me on, her and I had had the opportunity to work together previously. And, we're a former, what we like to say, work spouses. She was running merchandising and I was running marketing. And so we had to really come together and have a productive relationship from both angles to drive businesses.

Paula Macaggi:

You were like, can we do it Yeah. And do it?

Alison Hiatt:

We can do it. We can do it. And and she's a great leader. And, you know, we worked together 15, 20 years ago. So coming back together, so you've got great brand, great product, big challenge, and people that you're working with that you're gonna like.

Alison Hiatt:

It was a it was a no brainer in terms of taking on this.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. And you have do you have an affection with the brand? I feel

Alison Hiatt:

Yeah. I do. I really always love anybody that had a vision, so I love the founder's story, that is. But for me growing up, my mom was Vera Bradley, still is today. It was just a method that you knew that you put your make up in a Vera Bradley makeup bag.

Alison Hiatt:

And as a little girl growing up, you know, that there's something very special about your mom's makeup bag. And it was always a Vera Bradley and a new one. And then what we get for Christmas or when she traveled and again, travel when you're little. And so for me, that's what I grew up with is having a mom that just that was a way of life. So a very special connection standpoint.

Paula Macaggi:

Alright. So then you you got the job. Yeah. You decided to take on the challenge. And how was the brand perceived when we got it?

Paula Macaggi:

Like and what did you discover?

Alison Hiatt:

Yep. No. Great. Great question. So first and foremost, which I mentioned earlier, there was a lot of good perception.

Alison Hiatt:

It just was no longer relevant to a large portion. It would be people saying, oh, I used to. I had. I remember. So you have these positive associations with people going to college or having a weekend duffle or sleepover or whatever.

Alison Hiatt:

So you have this attachment to a brand, but they were always talking in past tense. So that was interesting. Of course, we have a core group that never, you know, left the brand and have been diehard fans of the brand, so you have that group as well, but then you have a whole another group that not even aware. So you have these 3 different buckets of thinking about what was going on with the brand in that respect.

Paula Macaggi:

And what was the process to rediscover what the brand is about?

Alison Hiatt:

Yeah. That was one where we're very lucky to have the founders and both Barb and Pat, you know, they're in their mid eighties now. They started this brand when they were in their forties and have really grown up over time. And they're not involved in the day to day business, but you could really have conversations about what they were hoping to create and what really inspired them. Over the past decade or so, I think they had not necessarily been following along with where the brand had been going, and we're pretty excited for somebody to come in, the team, to come in and really get back to where it was or what they originally what made it great.

Alison Hiatt:

Right? So that was the place to start because with branding, the best ones are authentic, as we know. And so you have to go back to what was the original idea? What was the original intent? And that's been one of the things that I have learned is how did we capture that?

Alison Hiatt:

And then as a company, how do you pass that forward through the generations? So the founders left at some point in time, and then that's really when it started to drift. And so how do you make sure that you define it in a way and embed that in the organization, but also in your customers so that you're all defining it the same way? And that really was it. And then working with a brand firm to help us do customer research in a lot of different categories, we obviously looked at a lot of data, buying history of our customers.

Alison Hiatt:

So really balanced approach of qualitative exploration with founders and stakeholders over the years, customer research, and then data. That's really where it started.

Paula Macaggi:

I would say it's a lot of work, but it sounds very fun.

Alison Hiatt:

Very fun. Very fun, especially if you're building a story and a narrative and you don't necessarily know where it ends. It really is a treasure hunt to understand how to put that forward.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. So you have, like, all these buckets of potential clients and already customers. Right?

Alison Hiatt:

So Exactly.

Paula Macaggi:

How do you discover the known customers? I think, like, the customers you already have a communication with, what the known customers want.

Alison Hiatt:

Right. So for those that knew us, and particularly the largest portion of that group, were people that had a great feeling. It's just all of a sudden one day we weren't a part of their lives anymore. So we went back to understand what bags were they using now, what point in time. And a lot of times we found that as people went and entered the workforce, if you will, depending on what they were doing, they were thinking, okay, I might not be able to have this much color.

Alison Hiatt:

I might not. I might need other fabrics besides this quilted cotton and things of that nature. Over the years, we have done leather. Vera Bradley, it's not as known for it, but we have done leather. We have done other fabrics, nylons, things of that nature.

Alison Hiatt:

So we realized that we really needed to expand so that we could be relevant to them just as much today, that we had more ways to offer color and fun and prints in different fabrics, different silhouettes that they could use today. So that really was what we were working towards is closing that gap.

Paula Macaggi:

Interesting. Yeah. I imagine that, as I said, it was a lot of fun, but you announced the new Vera Bradley on July 11th.

Alison Hiatt:

Correct.

Paula Macaggi:

You started a new company in January 2023.

Alison Hiatt:

Yes.

Paula Macaggi:

So that was, like, about 18 months.

Alison Hiatt:

18 months. 18 months. A blurry 18 months. Exactly.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. And rebranding, it's not something I don't know. It's not logo that you change. Right. You have to change every aspect business, the product, the Right.

Paula Macaggi:

Stores, the website. Everything. Like, how was the

Alison Hiatt:

timeline for you? Like, how was the team engaged in

Paula Macaggi:

all of that?

Alison Hiatt:

It was very

Paula Macaggi:

compressed, quite honestly, and the team had to be engaged given the amount of

Alison Hiatt:

change and the timeline that we were doing this change. And we felt really strongly that we needed to change all of this at once because looking historically, the company had tried a different logo or a different store or a different product, but had never done it all at once to really make that full customer experience feel cohesive in terms of being the same entire brand. So this is the most it's easier for me to identify things that we didn't change versus what we did change. And people were very excited about that opportunity. And we used to say there's a continuum that on one side of the continuum, it's terrifying.

Alison Hiatt:

And on the other side of the continuum, it's exhilarating. And we would ask people throughout different days, like, okay, where are you? Where are you on the agenda? Where are you? You know?

Alison Hiatt:

And that was just a way of being very upfront about the fact that, yeah, both can be true. This can be exhilarating and terrifying at the exact same time. And just really having that tight communication, a tight vision, and a common focus, all the things that you hear that you need to have great teamwork, those were important to have. But this is also a once in a couple of times maybe in your career that you get to do this extensive of a makeover or rebranding, which is also very exciting.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. How are our stories are gonna look like? What is the customer journey through our website? What is the product that people want? Exactly.

Alison Hiatt:

Exactly. What are our ads out in the world going to look like? Where should we even put these ads? What do we want people to feel when they see those? What do we want people to think?

Alison Hiatt:

You name it.

Paula Macaggi:

What people should feel when they see Vera Bradley?

Alison Hiatt:

It's a great one. We we actually spend a lot of time thinking about this, and you really should feel joy, but empowered joy. Because Vera Bradley is really about encouraging and inspiring women to just be bold and brilliant in their pursuits, but also in their fashion. And adding a bag or color or what have you is the way in which we can do that today and create your own style, your own look. So you want it empowered.

Alison Hiatt:

That's coming from within because she is feeling empowered because she is selecting what makes her feel good and look good. And it's playful and it's fun, and it's joyful. So those are the 2 things that

Paula Macaggi:

I want to talk about. Get that from the founders that they felt empowered?

Alison Hiatt:

I do. I do. So you go back to the story. You have Barb and Pat. They were friends.

Alison Hiatt:

Their kids were going off to college. They had a wallpaper business, so they were sort of entrepreneurial spirit. They had this, like, let's make it happen attitude. They were sitting in an airport, and they had bags, so they didn't need a bag, but they kept on looking as people were walking by and saying, what? There's not a lot of color in this airport.

Alison Hiatt:

So again, this is 40 years ago, 40 plus years ago. So what they really wanted was color and to just brighten up the world, if you will. And that's that's really inspiring. And they go, and they find fabric, and they start making these bags, and then they sell them to their friends, and then they take them to visit their daughters in college, and their daughters love these things. And so and then it went from there.

Alison Hiatt:

And they were really some of the OG female founders.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. Like, that feels very empowering.

Alison Hiatt:

Very empowering.

Paula Macaggi:

Especially in that time that it wasn't that usual to see working women. Exactly.

Alison Hiatt:

Exactly. Ahead of their time in that respect. So that is very inspiring. And they're still I I hope to be where they are, when I am in my mid eighties, because they are just very much travel and explore and art and involved in the whole Yeah. They're just very involved and inspiring in different areas now of the world.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. But well, but the part of the rebranding that really gets me thinking, and I think there's no recipe. Like, everybody gets, I don't know, frightened about the culture. Right? Because rebranding, as I said, we have to change the stores, the website, everything, but it it has everybody has to change.

Paula Macaggi:

Everybody, we think the company has to change. Yep. How was the culture shift? Or is it still happening? And how much that reflects on the CMO?

Alison Hiatt:

Yeah. It's interesting because this brand has such a following both in the consumers, but really the people that love this brand, that work for the brand, and they wanna see it succeed. So from a culture standpoint, you have a group that is putting the brand above themselves in terms of, hey. I might have a different idea of how we wanna grow this, but that might not be working right now. So let's try something different because I really wanna see this succeed.

Alison Hiatt:

Those are how a lot of conversations went. It is challenging. It is very challenging if you've been working on a brand for, let's say, 5 to 10 years, and you were thinking it was about one thing, and then you have somebody coming in to say, you know, actually, we went back to the brand roots, and we're thinking that we need to pivot a little bit. It's drifted in the last several years from what its original intent was for all the reasons that we can go back, but let's get it pivoted in the right way. That takes a lot to rewire and get people thinking differently about how to connect with the consumers and what does the product need to look like.

Alison Hiatt:

And so from a leadership standpoint, as a CMO, one of the key jobs is keeping that vision, if you will, ahead. People wanna define it very easily. Some people will say, well, Vera Bradley is about print. A lot of companies could say they're about print. Is that that doesn't distinguish us.

Alison Hiatt:

What really distinguishes us? So keeping people challenged to think about truly what what is different about this brand than others, that is something you uniquely need to do and continue to bring the customer and the outside world in to make sure that that continues to be a part of the conversation.

Paula Macaggi:

I will I was checking a lot of TikToks about her, Bradley. It's part of my research. Yes. That was a lot of fun. Yes.

Paula Macaggi:

I saw people going to the stores, trying different sets. This one goes with this one. This one will look good at this one, which I really like. Yep. That made me wonder if that would be part of a KPI if people are using, I don't know, user generated content.

Paula Macaggi:

Yes. Or what are the KPIs for a good rebranding?

Alison Hiatt:

Yeah. In this one in particular, because we know that we have great product and we know that we just need to get awareness, that will be a big KPI for us relative to where the market is today and consideration, quite frankly, because we know that we have products that we all need and we all use and women, myself, and friends, and what have you that are using day to day. So how do we make sure that we're thought about as a solution, but also part of that fun of the way in which she's creating her look? So awareness being a big one, consideration being another one. And then, honestly, to your point, user generated, I think that's been really popular on a lot of our you know, with our TikTok and our Instagram.

Alison Hiatt:

It's been really popular to share how other people I think growing that community, it's not about followers for me. It's about the community that you're growing there that everybody is contributing and showing up and sharing. That also is a KPI, but for the true community versus followers, if you will.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. I really liked how they were combining products. I do too.

Alison Hiatt:

I do too. And that's one of the things when you go in to the store, the new stores, it's very mix and match. And it almost like you're curating your own piece and look. And so you could go into the store, and I could. And we'll come out with completely different curated pieces.

Alison Hiatt:

And I think that's a side note to just overall the brand itself. One of the things we talked about was Vera Bradley is known for flowers. And so each our metaphor for each season is putting together a bouquet for our customers each season, and the bouquet is all these different prints and colors. And we pull that together in a very inspired way and give that each season. And we our color our brand color is green because we're always gonna be the stem of that bouquet.

Alison Hiatt:

And each season will come out with different flowers and what's in season and what's not, and everybody puts their bouquet together differently. Here's what we've given as that bouquet to our customers. So that was also a metaphor to help uplift beyond product, if you will, to, like, truly what are we what are we gifting each season.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. And I love that we have the products here. Right?

Alison Hiatt:

Yes.

Paula Macaggi:

These are totally my bookies. Yes. Yes. So you see that it's not print. Right?

Paula Macaggi:

Like, it's not what you're traditionally known for. Is that new ways to express the product to express the brand?

Alison Hiatt:

We've always had a lot of sales and prints or in solids. Excuse me. We've also had it in prints. What, but we were more known for our prints. And so we're balancing that because there's times where you need print, and there's times where you need solid.

Alison Hiatt:

And then if you were to open up my solid bag over here, you're gonna see there's a lot of print in it because I have all these pouches for my cords or my lip sticks or whatever that are just fun and for me. So there's times where I really want to have a cute printed bag, and then there's other times where I need to have something that's a little more neutral. So I think that was just part of us is saying, we've had solids, but let's just show them and let's put them in silhouettes and in fabrics that we know she is liking today. Again, we've always had leather. We've always had solids, but let's just make sure that we're making that more known.

Paula Macaggi:

Well, and of course, you know that we have this partnership with Shoptalk. So we'll spend the Shoptalk, fall in Chicago where we're gonna see you on stage.

Alison Hiatt:

I'm very excited to share more about the journey.

Paula Macaggi:

Absolutely. I'm very excited to see you there as well. And one of the things that I love about ShopTalk, this version of ShopTalk, and I've been to many in different countries, is that most of their lineup are women. Yes. And the main stage is women only keynotes which is very exciting.

Alison Hiatt:

Very exciting.

Paula Macaggi:

How do you feel about other women in leadership? Because as we were talking before the founders were in a time that it wasn't that common to see working women. How was it in your career? Did you have other women to support you? How was that?

Alison Hiatt:

Yeah. Most definitely, the answer is yes. And, you know, many people talk about their concept of their personal board of directors. And when you think about the people that sit around that table, they're definitely key women throughout my career that have helped make me who I am today and continue to. I am very lucky.

Alison Hiatt:

I work for a female founded brand. I work for a female CEO. We have the majority of our board is female as well. So it's very empowering to be able to, both personally and professionally, be focused on female.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. I'm very excited. Like, they're gonna have the meetups as well, so we can network and, yeah. Yes. Very excited for that.

Paula Macaggi:

And you come across very passionate about what you do. Mhmm. I feel I think it be it's beyond Vera Bradley. It's Allison, who is very passionate about branding. Yes.

Paula Macaggi:

How did you find out about this passion? How do you feel about it?

Alison Hiatt:

Yeah. It's really interesting because what I spend a lot of time thinking about and always have, even growing up, is as consumers, why do we like what we like and what draws us to things? And I find that absolutely fascinating, whether it's evergreen, those things that we've always loved, or it's new trends. Why? Why do we do that?

Alison Hiatt:

And what drives that? And and I think that's really the excitement of life, these new surprises. That's why I love retail too. I mean, that's all about, you know, retail. We're basically putting on this play, if you will, of products in a store environment or a website.

Alison Hiatt:

And, like, what is that experience? And then you you're coming out with this bag of things that you will love A bag. Take forward, literally a bag. You will take your take away a bag. But I find that really fascinating.

Alison Hiatt:

And the commonality there is completely having a growth mindset, always discovering, always new. Marketing and branding, as soon as you think you're done, you are out of date. Like, you constantly have to be thinking about how things are changing. And, you know, we've had conversations that that's happening even faster on many more fronts. The trends don't seem to last as longer as well, so that's also causing things to move faster.

Alison Hiatt:

So you really have to be on your game because we have no shortage of choice as consumers. And so how do you really make sure that your brand stands out and creates this unique moment to capture somebody's attention enough for them to say, yes. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you money, and I'm gonna show my love for what you're doing. There's something very, very exciting and challenging about that, but it it really is what makes me tick, is how do you give that delight to a customer, whether it's through the product or the experience or what have you? And how do you keep that relevant and fresh and moving forward?

Paula Macaggi:

Well, I think keeping that relevance and, stay so tuned into, like, what the MarTech is happening or what the new social media is doing, what the new consumers are doing. That demands a lot of the CMO. I don't know. Like, the tenure of a CMO now is, like,

Alison Hiatt:

I don't

Paula Macaggi:

know. So 2 and

Alison Hiatt:

a half seconds,

Paula Macaggi:

it feels like,

Alison Hiatt:

or whatever. Yes.

Paula Macaggi:

Makes it so challenging. What do you think makes a good CMO today?

Alison Hiatt:

Good people on your team. The breadth of what, even when I go back and think about my 25 to 30 year career and what I was focused on from a marketer to what I'm focused on now, the level of complexity is just exponential, as we all know. And it is impossible for one person to stay on top of all of that. So you need to find good people on your team that are also eager about intellectual challenge, finding the new, keeping up to date on what's going on, not resting on the laurels of like, well, we figured that out. Now we can move on.

Alison Hiatt:

You know, like, how do you find that team that continues to push the envelope, continues to think as fast, as nimble, as learning and growing? Because you are really, at the CMO, finding so many different fronts, if you will, of ways specialize in everything. You could specialize in everything. So finding really, really good people that are really on top of their game and then you as the CMO knowing how to pull that team together and sort of be a conductor orchestra, if you will, but also making sure that you're asking the right questions and looking around the corners and cross pollinating ideas. So one part of your team might think this and another part's this.

Alison Hiatt:

It's like, great. 1 +1equal11. You guys get in a room and start talking about it. So making those connections with the right people is the way in which, as a CMO, you have to move forward, in my opinion.

Paula Macaggi:

Yeah. And as a leader, you have to give the space for people to collaborate and risk and right?

Alison Hiatt:

Exactly. Exactly.

Paula Macaggi:

Who is that CMO or CEO that you really admire and that should be here on the show with me?

Alison Hiatt:

Oh, interesting. So I'm gonna go with the CEO because I have a lot of friends that are CMOs, and I cannot leave anyone out, if you will, because they're all You have to be all invoxidating. Right? I love them all. Okay.

Alison Hiatt:

But from a CEO standpoint, one of the women, and I've actually, years ago when I was at Starbucks, had the opportunity to work with her is Michelle Goss. And she recently became CEO of Levi's. Unbelievable because if you look at that, she is also has a fantastic brand, a brand that has stood the test of time in a world

Paula Macaggi:

online today.

Alison Hiatt:

Exactly. That has a lot of brand love, a lot of brand awareness, and how do you make sure that that brand continues to move forward? So I'm very interested to see what she does going forward. Because, again, it's a great brand and a very, very increasingly competitive market similar to bags from when Levi's started to now and when Verus started to now. So I really look forward to watching what's happening.

Alison Hiatt:

And then similarly, with the Gap and their new CEO, I think they're another area of opportunity to say, okay, how do they think about for their particular Gap brand? I know they have a house of brands, but that particular brand, how do they go forward too?

Paula Macaggi:

Interesting. I'm curious too. And I know that you have an experience on Starbucks, which they will have to go through.

Alison Hiatt:

That's another one too. I mean and it shows you because you think about you bring up these companies and you think, oh, they could do no wrong x number of years ago. And then now you look at it. So it comes in cycles, and our job is to make sure that you continue to weather those cycles and storms and then continue to get back out there.

Paula Macaggi:

Alright. We unfortunately have to finish this conversation. Yes. But, yeah, we should have booked 4 hours for this interview. I'm very excited to see you again in Chicago then.

Alison Hiatt:

Yes. Likewise.

Paula Macaggi:

But what would be your advice to someone that is starting in a career now? Like how they should pursue their career and their mindset for to become a leader like you?

Alison Hiatt:

Again, focusing on growth, experimenting, trial, go work in different industries. I feel very fortunate that I've always been consumer focused, direct to consumer, but have worked in coffee, ice cream, pets, kids clothing, outdoor goods, variety of different industries. And each one of them has really helped me hone skills and think more complete about consumers in general. And so I think it's really, make sure, stay hungry, stay curious, explore, test yourself, try new things, ask questions, and network. It truly is about networking and getting to know people and their experiences.

Paula Macaggi:

And we will do that in Chicago. Thank you so much

Alison Hiatt:

for joining

Paula Macaggi:

me here. It was a pleasure. And see you soon. Thank you so much. I had a wonderful conversation with Alison.

Paula Macaggi:

I'm very excited for what's to come in Chicago. And for next week, you can expect our my conversation with Luciana Rodenbush, who is the president of Pandora, another brand changing a lot and bringing customer loyalty. See you next Tuesday.