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In the Hidden Money podcast, you'll learn how you can legally use the tax code to your financial advantage. There’s wealth inside the tax code. Taxes aren’t the enemy.
Most people hate taxes (and pay more than they should). But when you view taxes only as an evil expense, you miss out on legal ways to grow your wealth. Unlock the secrets to saving tax and building wealth with the Hidden Money Podcast! 🎧💰 Hosted by Mike Pine and Kevin Schneider.
Mike Pine: I started renting this house
in 2008, I could have bought the house
at the time for like 110, $120,000.
The landlord offered that.
But I decided to rent it
instead for 1,400 bucks a month.
Every year she said,
"You wanna buy me out?"
And every year, the price
got a little bit higher.
I was like, "No, I don't
know that it's gonna be up.
I'm gonna wait for the
bubble to pop again."
And when I finally bought my first house,
I didn't buy my first house until 2017.
That was 41 years old.
First house I bought, 41.
Dumb.
Should have bought every
single time, but I was scared.
If I would've bought that house that
I ended up renting for 9 years, all
the rent payments I paid would've paid
off my mortgage, and I would've been
able to sell it for about 200,000.
Today that
house is worth about 400,000.
And it would've been tax-free.
Welcome: Welcome
to this episode of the
Hidden Money Podcast.
Today, we're gonna step in a time machine
Kevin Schneider: and
just say, what would our younger selves
do 10 years ago on the investment side?
And a
lot of this might be
tax-driven, obviously,
but there's some mistakes
we've made, some
things we haven't
done that
we should
have.
Mm-hmm.
But what would
we have done 10
years ago knowing what we know today,
and we're a little older, maybe a little
wiser, a little m- definitely more grayer.
But what would we have
Mike Pine: yourself, grayer.
You, I- I am gray.
Kevin Schneider: I am way gray.
You
Mike Pine: have like,
Kevin Schneider: Oh,
no, no,
no.
I see some gray.
It's,
it's close
up,
Mike Pine: was just looking at pictures.
Becca was showing some old
family photos, and we're
showing
our first beach time
with Eli seven years ago.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
Eight,
Mike Pine: Eight,
Eight, years ago.
Seven
or
eight.
No gray.
Kevin Schneider: Clean-shaven too
Mike Pine: shaven, yeah.
Um, yeah.
So
Kevin Schneider: a toll
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
it's all
Mike Pine: It's all gray.
So I've
I've, grown up.
I'm, I'm more mature.
You, Sonny, um, â¦you
still got some time
before you, but we've learned a lot
together.
Yeah.
But
no, I
mean,
and obviously we're
gonna
have a tax bent to this, right?
But oh,
if I could go back 10 years and
20 years ago and tell myself,
"Hey, think about this
or do these things in
investing," how muchâ¦
I, I can't even imagine.
I mean, besides
the obvious,
Kevin and I were
just
joking about
this before.
Well,
10 years ago should've bought a bunch
of
Bitcoin- and NVIDIA stock.
Yeah.
I
mean, that would've been
nice.
and gold, gold coins,
uh,
that 300
bucks an ounce when now
they're 4,500 I think today.
Um,
but
let's
talk about the tax side of it and why
it's important
because what we're hoping,
uh,
my father and
I
were just talking about this actually
on, on my drive up here today,
of
some
of the hardest, the best
lessons
I've learned and he's learned
in life were some of the hardest,
the most expensive, the most
painful, the most complicated,
but boy were they good lessons.
And I was like, "Well, Dad,
why didn't you just tell me
and,
and
help me
learn
without the pain, without
the cost, without the,
the lost money,
without the having to hire the lawyers
to get out
of things, without, you know, without aâ¦
to get out of bad partnerships?
Why didn't you just
tell
me?"
And you know, my dad said- Yeah
"I did,
Kevin Schneider: Mike.
You
wouldn't
listen."
Mike Pine: I need
to
Kevin Schneider: I
need
to talk to your
Mike Pine: dad.
Oh,
man.
Um, but anyways, if any of you guys are
open
to learning from what we wish
we would've done as investors
10 or 20 years ago, this is
episode's for
you.
Kevin Schneider: Yeah.
And,
And, times actually, I
mean, they change obviously.
Like 10 years ago, I, I
mean, I was in my mid-30s,
so I
had--
didn't
have
the income at the time.
I didn't have the risk tolerance to do a
lot of things at that
Mike Pine: You have no risk tolerance
Kevin Schneider: had zero risk tolerance.
I had zero.
And so I
was
like, "I'm just gonna stash
my
money in
a
nice conservative mutual
fund and spread
that out,
and everything
will be fine."
Now, there's some
wisdom to
that.
I
still do that.
I,
there's a part of
my
investment
portfolio where I legit
just
allocate
my investment over different mutual
funds in different sectors, and
it covers me.
Mm-hmm.
But
now
I'm also
doing a little crypto.
Now
I'm
doing some
oil.
Now we're buying some real estate,
and real estate's
always been one
of my biggest
profit drivers in the past.
Well, being in North
Texas, we're in
DFW area.
DFW area
is justâ¦
You can't--
you
couldn't lose in this market from 2010 to
Mike Pine: 2010 toâ¦
Kevin Schneider: I
mean,
there's been, been
some
losers,
but
the
majority
of your purchases and sales and
have
appreciated in value in
North Texas just because the
people transplanting
Mike Pine: They've all appreciated
if you
didn't haveâ¦
if you weren't forced
to sell at a different
time, right?
Yeah.
Like,
if you could hold on long
enough and you didn't have
to sell in the downswings.
Um,
and that's
probably lesson
one I would tell myself 10 years ago, 20
years ago, 25 years ago, but I'm a lot
Kevin Schneider: Real estate is
Welcome: nice.
Mike Pine: I was scared to
buy real
estate.
I
kept thinking, well, the- You were afraid
of the bubble ⦠the, dumbest thing.
Yeah.
So, like, I moved to Texas 2005,
2006,
um,
and there was a bubble andâ¦
but
I
wasn't re- â¦I
didn't have the funds to
buy a property or anything.
Um, but 2008
hit, and we saw the bubble pop.
I mean,
DFW, it only popped like, like 15, 20%
in most cases, but it
popped.
I saw
that, and that made me too scared to
buy again.
So I started
renting this house in
2008.
Um,
I could have
bought
the
house at the time for like 110, $120,000.
The landlord
offered
that.
but I
decided to
rent it instead for 1,400 bucks a month.
Um,
every
year she
said, "You wanna buy me out?"
And every year, the price
got a little bit higher.
I was like, "No, I, I, I don't
know that it's gonna be up.
I'm gonna wait for the
bubble to pop again."
And when
I finally,
Becca and I bought my
first house, I didn't
buy my first house until
2017.
That was
41 years
old.
First house I bought, 41.
Dumb.
Should have
bought every single time, but I
was scared.
If I would've
bought that house that
I
ended up renting for 9 years-
All
the rent
payments I
paid would've
paid
off my
mortgage, and I would've been
able to sell it for about 200,000
Today, that
house â¦â¦is
worth about 400,000 and
it would've been tax-free.
And a primary
residence, if you, if, if your
rental in- if your rent expense
is similar to
your
mortgage payment, buy.
You should buy.
Um,
I was
too scared to.
I wish I could go back
and tell myself.
And I, I can go back three, four times.
There was a house
when I was in s- college
in Montana I almost bought,
but I was too scared.
In Bozeman, Montana, that house
was a hundred thousand bucks.
I just saw
that house.
I l-
happened
to look
up on Zillow
last year, and of course, Bozeman, after
Yellowstone has come out, um, that house
sold for nine hundred thousand bucks.
And I was too scared.
Like,
and I paid rent.
I bought a trailer instead,
and I
didn't
make
any
money.
You don't
buyâ¦
You don't
make money on mobile homes unless
you're renting them out to people.
I, yeah.
But anyways, that would be my number
one lesson.
And there's a tax bent to it, too,
right?
Real
estate
investments.
Now, if it's primary
residence, your
tax benefits, you get to deduct interest.
You don't get to deduct
rent if â¦â¦it's
your primary residence.
Um,
but you get to sell
it tax-free.
But
if
you're buying investment
property, I would've
bought
Kevin Schneider: more rentals.
It's t-
talking-
Mostly tax-free.
Uh, yeah, Code Section 121
is what you're referring to.
If you live in your primary
residence for two of five years,
you get to exclude $250,000 if
you're single, 500,000 of gain if
you're
married.
In
this
market, we've seen people pay tax
on their primary residence because
of the appreciation's been so high.
But
that's not
a bad thing.
That's
a lot
of
Mike Pine: The first half
million was
tax-free, so they paid a little
tax on a couple hundred thousand
more,
Kevin Schneider: Yeah.
So
yeah,
I,
you
know, I, was kind of in
the same boat.
Um,
I bought a house
in
when the
bubbleâ¦
I actuallyâ¦
There was a
something called
a first-time home
buyer
credit- Mm â¦â¦â¦for
8,000
bucks.
and I put t- like, I think I
put
about 10 to $12,000 down.
I
put like,
I s- and that was me grinding.
I was, I was a
senior just a
c-
uh, CPA, senior
CPA, and I was
starting
a
a young
family,
and
man,
I
had to grind to save that
up.
And
I,
I saved it up,
put it
down, and then when I got
my
tax return,
I had an $8,000
credit.
I
was like,
" "The government just
paid
for my first house
down
payment."
Mm.
It was great.
And
we bought low, and then we
sold it
six years later.
So
that
was a good
investment, and real estate's always been
one of those things where I'm like, man,
I've always made good money in North Texas
off real estate.
It's
always
been profitable for
me.
Mike Pine: Contrast y- And
you seem to
accidentally time every
real
estate buy and sell perfectly.
We'll see on this one.
Like,
I've
always chosen to tryâ¦
You
did.
You
timed it.
you
bought
Kevin Schneider: this home-
The
Mike Pine: The next one, sin buys it.
And
no, this
last home you're in.
The home-
Oh, yeah â¦you're
in now, and you got 3%
mortgage or something.
This was
right before interest
went way
up, and I was
thinking you were crazy buying
that home.
Um, and you got it at a really
good
deal â¦compared
â¦to
today's prices.
Don't try to time the
market in real estate.
That's
Kevin Schneider: another thing I would
tell myself.
Um-
Or perfectly time it.
There's
good
and bad
times to
buy and sell, but y-
I
think you
were waiting for
like,
you know, when you're
watching stocks, â¦you're
watching the graph.
You're
like, "When does
it
act- when's the
valley
at the
very
bottom?"
That's when Iâ¦
'Cause if
you
buy a little before or after, you might
feel like you're getting ripped off, â¦or
you could've had a better
deal,
you
know?
Yeah.
That's, that's the problem.
It's that feeling in you.
you.
want the
best deal humanly possible, no
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
ands, ifs, or buts,
Mike Pine: know?
The only time I've timed
any investment right,
um,
was Tesla right
after DOGE came out.
All the
Tesla
dealerships
are getting burned
'cause Elon Musk
become public enemy
number one,
and
I
bought it at 217, and
I hate myself for not
buying a heck of a lot
Kevin Schneider: more.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's my one big
equity hold right now.
But you've learned, I mean, you've
learned, um, we both have on
the
real
estate,
like we're buying a commercial property,
and we're gonna use it
for a trade or business
That's
o-
the
same economic unit as our
business, so
those two are gonna offset.
So we're gonna tax plan with a commercial
property
against
our tax practice, which is growing our
wealth.
This
property's
gonna
go up in value.
It's r- right
in the heart of the metroplex.
It's
satisfying a need of our business,
and we're gonna save taxes all in one.
so.
Yeah.
um, we're
we're kind of learning.
But it took us a, it took us
a while to get to that stage
'cause
it's
it's risk, And
risk is hard.
You take risks very easily in
the business 'cause you can,
you have the vision, and
you
have
the tolerance to say, "Hey,
if we hire these people,
then
Mike Pine: you have the
tolerance to say, "Hey, if
we hire these people,
then-" We'll be able to save
that many more taxes for
people-
and
Kevin Schneider: always save
that many more taxes for people-
Mike Pine: That's so easy for me
to take
that.
That's not a risk to
â¦â¦ Kevin Schneider: and then we transition
that
risk
to a different area of our
business that may not have
that goal of tax savings.
It's
just kind of
like, hey,
it's
a property.
We need it.
Then
that risk is more real to
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
you, I feel, than
that.
So-
Mike Pine: Yeah, we switched
places on that, right?
Like, that's the
first
â¦â¦time you were like, "Mike,
why are you
so risk adverse?"
I've neverâ¦
That's-- It's
always been the opposite.
Even to this day.
I'm like, "But Iâ¦
We're not hiring a tax person.
We
need
Kevin Schneider: We could be
Mike Pine: people."
Kevin Schneider: so much
Mike Pine: we just buy this
Welcome: if we
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
if we didn't buy this
Mike Pine: property.
Ugh.
That
was
the right choice
and,
and it was because of the
lessons I've learned.
So right now,
I only have one rental
property, my primary, and
now our
office
building.
If I would
have bought, in all the op- chances
and opportunities I had for real
estate, I would have a lot more.
I
could have five
rentals by now,
easy.
Couple short terms.
Like
when
Becca and I
first
decided,
all right, we're gonna do the
short term rental market,"
we got pre-qualified for like
two point six percent interest on
a nice big payment,
and
we
made a few offer--
More
than a few offers,
but
I underbid every single
one, and I lost out some of
them by,
like ten grand.
If
we
would've had those,
if I wouldn't have tried to time it and
get the perfect price, oh my gosh, would
we
be sitting pretty.
And the
taxes we
would've saved would've
easily
paid
for the additional prices that
I was afraid to pay for, right?
Um, and
that's
the last thing on real estate
I wanna mention is yes, you get
the primary
home exclusion.
If
you're buying it for your
business, your, your commercial
property, there's that
awesome depreciation if you're
in
the same economic unit.
But
even if you are a passive rental real
estate investor, um, you get cash free
Kevin Schneider: distribution,
tax-free distribution,
Mike Pine: not cash free.
Sorry.
Cash free distributions.
Cash
free
distributions.
Yeah, that sounds like a- No one wants
those.
No
one wants those.
I
don't
want those.
Um, but you get tax
free distributions, and
the tenant is paying your
mortgage, so you can grow so
much more.
I
didn't like the idea of debt leverage.
You used to
hate it.
Talk
about
Kevin Schneider: that
in real
estate,
and then we'll get
off real estate and
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
start talking about other things.
Yeah, 'cause
Mike Pine: some
Kevin Schneider: other things.
Yeah, 'cause there's some other
things we wanna go through.
Other things.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
of other things.
Mike Pine: other things.
Um,
Kevin Schneider: yeah, debt,
it's kinda like, um, I was so
anti-debt, Dave Ramsey kinda thing,
and I was just like, "Man, let'sâ¦
We're,
we're bootstrapping this
business from the ground up.
We're not using debt."
Um, which
there's,
there's
there's
100% wisdom
in
that.
Oh, yeah.
Um,
I always equate, and I've said
this before
on the
podcast,
where debt is dessert.
It's okay every now
and then.
It's okay to
leverage it, use
it.
Uh,
you can accelerate the
growth of your business.
You can buy
more investments with
that.
But too much of it, you get sick.
You get overweight.
Youâ¦
It's just not healthy to have
too much
debt.
So you
wanna make sure you're managing
your debt.
But I mean, we're taking debt on this.
We wouldn't be able to
cash flow a commercial
property.
If
we were gonna Dave
Ramsey this commercial property,
Mike Pine: would never
buy
one.
Kevin Schneider: Why would I ever save up
a couple million bucks and buy a property,
it makes no
Mike Pine: when I could
pour
that into the business.
But we're making smarter debt.
We're getting fixed interest, right?
Like we're paying a little
bit higher points to get a
fixed rate.
We're
not
getting
variable- For ten years ⦠because
Kevin Schneider: We're not
getting the variable For 10
years We'll see what happens.
Yeah.
And
we
have a low rate blocked
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
in for 10 years.
I
Kevin Schneider: what my
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
payment is every year.
Mike Pine: And we know we can float
it.
Um, worse comes to
worse
there's so m- we, we know we can pay
for it,
so that's
good debt.
But
so just an example.
Let's
say
we
saved a million dollars up to
buy a million-dollar property.
Used a
million
dollars cash.
We
saved up,
We bought a million-dollar property, held
onto it for five years, um, and sold it
for $2
million.
That'd
Welcome: million.
Mike Pine: be
nice.
100%
return on
your income.
100%.
Let's say we did, bought the
same property with 20% down.
Put $200,000 down.
Got safe,
fixed
debt.
Two,
$200,000 down, get a
million-dollar property.
So the bank isâ¦
You're
using the bank's $800,000 to have
that million-dollar property.
You're paying interest.
Five years later, you sell it
for $2 million.
You
turn 200,000 into 2 million.
That's 10X, not
1X,
10X.
Kevin Schneider: So debt-
But you have to pay that
Mike Pine: that down, but-
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
but
Mike Pine: Oh, look, yeah.
It works.
Let's say you have a tenant
that's
paying
it for you.
Boom.
Okay?
So you didn't get the cash
flow, but you still got
10X.
We
see that â¦happen
â¦all
the time with our clients and,
and I, I was a Dave Ramsey fan
too.
Um, I still kinda am within reason.
Uh, but like I used to listen to
his, his show all the time,
and I'd get so excited.
Like, that's
where I get myâ¦
When people say, "How are you doing?"
I always say, "Better than I deserve."
That's Dave.
Um, but also the
people that would just
be so excited calling in saying,
I'm
debt-free" and he had like
some kind of celebration buzzer
thing, and, and that was exciting.
So I like
it, but as I saw client over
client, the difference between
our clients over the last 15
years that were making
eight, 12% a
year on their
income in real estate
and others making 40, 50% over 10 years
in real estate, it had to do
with
debt.
But then I also got
to see
the 2008 crash
and then the 2020, um, 2021 inflation
crash
and
the people that got hurt and lost
everything are the ones
that got bad debt or
overextended themselves.
They didn't have rainy day
fund to be able to pay it.
Most of them are the ones that
got interest, um, variable
interest debt.
and
when
interest get, went from
3% to
7 or 8%, suddenly you
can't afford to
keep that asset
and
now you're selling in the
worst real estate market.
So Iâ¦
if you're gonna buy real estate,
I'm 100% believer, I know â¦â¦this
disagrees with a lot
of people,
but
100%
believer and preacher,
Kevin Schneider: get
a fixed rate mortgage.
That's right.
And spread that payment
out
if you can.
Um,
â¦that's
what I think, too.
Cash flow today is very
valuable for your business.
So,
Um, the other lesson I learned
is not relying on other people's
research to invest in â¦â¦or
other people's,
uh, experience
to drive what you
invest
in.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
And
we invested, um- For
Mike Pine: results.
Like you always
hear,
"Hey, just
because it's done
this over the past five
years, you, you don't think
it's gonna do
it
again."
it doesn't guarantee future results.
Past, past results
don't guarantee
future
Kevin Schneider: future
results.
It's hard not toâ¦
It's hard to actually take that-
Yeah.
And we had aâ¦
You know, we lost our butt on one
of our bigger investments too,
um, in 2020.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
2020-
Welcome: in 2020.
Kevin Schneider: 2021, somewhere in there.
Um, we had a bunch of
clients
that were
investing into this oil and gas
deal, and
we were, we
were seeing the K-1s come to
our clients for several years.
Yeah.
And these are cash distributions.
We know how much they
put
in, how much IDCs
they were
being
allocated,
how much depreciation.
They're getting
2X their,
uh, investment amount in
loss, deductible loss,
plus they're
cash
flowing like 20%
a year on it.
Wow.
And I'm like- and so we were seeing these
K-1s for several
years.
And so
we actually had a good year
that year, sold our, uh, part
of our practice, and we're like,
"Yeah,
let's,
let's just get some of
this money into this fund."
Well,
we did.
Did
I do as much due diligence as I would
say I do now?
Heck no.
What I did, I saw future or past results,
past reporting, and I was-- And we knew
the people who were putting on this deal.
And so weâ¦
They were
Welcome: s-
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
um, in
Kevin Schneider: networks.
We, we
trusted
these guys.
Mike Pine: Because all
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
of our
network trusted
Kevin Schneider: Because everyone else.
And so we relied on our
network, relied on our,
um,
Mike Pine: K1s
that we saw coming into
our
Kevin Schneider: clients.
We're like- Do our
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
and so we invested our actual money into
Kevin Schneider: own due diligence.
And so we invested our
actual money into this deal,
and then
Mike Pine: not but,
I don't know how many months
later?
Four months
later ⦠half a year.
Not even.
We invested in December
Kevin Schneider: and, SEC shut
them down ⦠came out in March.
It's a Ponzi scheme.
So we invested our money
in a s-
dead
gum Ponzi scheme because we saw, we
relied and
didn't do our own
homework.
And now,
but that has trained us
very well
because we still invest in oil.
It did not sour
us.
We d- we took our licks, for sure.
We, we took one off the chin â¦â¦and
we keep
going
Seriously.
But now Mike is-- You've
visited, um, sites.
You, you are
digging deep into these deals to make
sure that, one, we can't
guarantee profitability-
No
Mike Pine: you're
Kevin Schneider: us up in a,
Mike Pine: These- At least I
know it's not a
Ponzi
scheme.
It- And at least I
understand the
business plan,
Kevin Schneider: and I've done a deep
background on the operator, right?
Yes.
On
Mike Pine: every
Kevin Schneider: on
every
operator we do
Mike Pine: invest- on every
operator we do business with.
And if we'd have done any
of those things in the other
investment- It would've fished out
they would've fished out.
And what I should have listened to, my
grandfather
is a
great
man.
He
grew up in New York City
during the Depression.
Um, super super poor
family.
His dad
was an immigrant.
Um,
and
he
bootstrapped
himself
up and
was a
New York
City firefighter, lieutenant.
But he got started
investing in real estate
and
then in the market,
and
relatively speaking, he
retired pretty darn wealthy.
Um,
and he
used to
tell
" me,
Never invest in something you don't
understand, and never invest in
something that s- sounds too good to
be true."
I understood the oil and
gas thing that we invested
in.
It
did sound too good to be true.
Now, when I see too good to be true
investments, I double, triple, quadruple
check them, and I usually
don't invest in
them
unless I absolutely understand it.
That, however, don't invest in
something you don't
understand,
Kevin Schneider: has prevented me from
getting into
cryptocurrency.
Mike Pine: I'm-
' You've got to invest â¦â¦it's
all my
grandfather's fault
that I'm not in crypto.
If I
would've gotten into crypto 10 years
ago when everyone else was doing
it,
um-
Yeah ⦠we could cash flow the
Kevin Schneider: the next 20
Mike Pine: that we
need to make.
Kevin Schneider: that we need to make.
Easily.
Mike Pine: Poppy.
Yeah.
Way to go.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
But
Kevin Schneider: But
Mike Pine: Hey,
you-
Kevin Schneider: But
if I would've listened to him in the
oil thing, we wouldn't have done it.
How much of
those
kind of meme coins have fallen off
though, you know?
True.
It's
like Bitcoin has survived, but how much
garbage has been created in lieu of
Bitcoin in
its, in its wake- Yeah
that people invested in be Like,
" Oh, this is the next thing."
And
you know, I,
I just, I
don't
invest
that way.
Um, uh,
but there's people that do,
and some of it pays off.
It's all
risk tolerance, and
we, we
have to
manage our risks.
And
I think you And
I do a
good job of that with our
own personal finance.
Like our business
I view
is not
as risky, 'cause I think
we have a proven model.
We have a need in
Mike Pine: marketplace for what we
do,
Kevin Schneider: and I think
⦠there's gonna be a return.
And we have great compensation.
Yeah.
And so money
invested
into our business
I
don't
view as
risky as
I
originally
did.
Um,
but I still have some risky investments-
Yeah ⦠some, you know, that are, that
I'm gonna hopefully hit home runs on.
But I also have my
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
mutual funds,
um-
Mike Pine: You should
have bought â¦â¦gold
and silver when I tried to
convince you to do it, but
anyways, now it's
too late.
Now you can't time
it
right.
Um, another lesson,
like, so I've been a tax strategist.
I
mean, I was a tax preparer, I'd say,
until about two thousand and eight.
and so I've been a tax strategist now
for eighteen years, where I'm really
doing tax strategy
and planning.
and
the
power, just
like we always hear about the power
of compounding, we have episodes
where you've talked about why you
should start
investing in your four hundred and one
K when you're in your twenties, right?
Because
those dollars invested now
will be hundreds of dollars
by the time you retire.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
Mm-hmm.
Mike Pine: But
tax advantaged investing is another
multiplier effect on compounding.
And
I mean,
it's just so normal, I guess, typical.
Like, did you know the number one
profession that dies with the highest
population or percentage that dies
without having a will is attorneys?
Hmm.
And
the second one's CPAs, by the way.
So
weâ¦
Practitioners tend not to follow
their own advice, and I was
helping
clients make tax advantage
investments
that
multiplies our ROI from like twelve
percent a year to like twenty percent a
year.
That,
and that, that multiplies the compounding
effect for the last ten years,
and I wasn't making tax advantaged
investments until twenty nineteen.
Like,
Iâ¦
Why
was
I
not following my
own
advice?
So
tax advantaged
investments are uber important, and they
don't all take material participation.
There are
passive ways
to do it.
Um, just a
normal one is, is real
estate syndications.
Just
make sure you
do your due diligence, find the
right operators, understand what the
business
plan is.
But
you
investâ¦
let's say it
pays eight percent distributions,
or you have a choice of
investing in a s-stock, um,
on the Dow or
S&P five hundred that's
gonna pay eight percent
dividends, right?
Every year
you get that eight percent back
from dividends, you're
paying
tax
on that.
Yep.
Passive real estate
run
by a good operator, every year you
get your eight percent dividend
or distribution, you're not paying
tax
on it 'cause you have
a passive activity loss carry-forward.
You
add that up five years, ten years
and look at the power of compounding,
especially if you're reinvesting those
distributions, you have three or four
times as much money in a decade than you
did from the stock.
That's real estate.
I
mean, that's tax advantaged
investing, And
I,
Kevin Schneider: I wish I would've
Mike Pine: been
doing it
Kevin Schneider: all
these
years instead of
the
last seven years.
Yeah.
Well,
I think there--
We didn't have the capital.
You know, you were investing
in this business, right?
Mike Pine: We didn't have the capital.
You know, you were investing
in this business, right?
Kevin Schneider: So I
wouldn't beat yourself up too
bad.
I was
still
paying
Mike Pine: rent.
I should have bought
more houses, but yeah.
But- But-
that's, that's where- â¦I'm
not gonna beat myself
up,
Kevin Schneider: but I want
you- That's why we learn.
I
want
you-
Yeah ⦠viewer, to
learn
from my
lesson.
In
401it's a it's a tax
ad-advantageous investment.
I mean, 401you have those caps
on it.
Um, but it
could
be pre-tax,
you're gonna pay tax
on it in your
retirement years.
But a lot of tax planning is, hey,
during my working years, and I've been
stashing
away into a 401ever since I was
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
22.
Kevin Schneider: 22.
I've just
always been
taught, "Hey, you're gonna--
you defer
as much as you can into
401, and then if you
have capital
left, you
still
invest that."
Um, but
it's
all pre-tax in my working
years
when my tax bracket's now high.
Mm-hmm.
And then when I'm
retired, I'm gonna come up with a
plan there, or I'm gonna just pull on
my retirement at a lower rate then.
Or
if I have,
we have a big loss, let's say
Mike Pine: we buy this
commercial property.
And we're able to- ⦠and we
have a huge- ⦠â¦â¦create
a big
Kevin Schneider: loss- A tax-
Deductible loss- a tax loss But
tax loss A tax loss â¦because
of depreciation,
I
might be able to convert a bunch of my
pre-tax money to Roth money and protect
it from taxes
in my retirement years and
not pay tax on it, so I win on the
front end- and on the back end.
Yeah.
So
retirement
is, it's,
it can deplete some cash
in the short term, but it's
still tax advantageous in the
fact that if it's
pre-tax, you're not paying
tax on that contribution.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
Um, but Roths are still good
just bec- â¦I
Kevin Schneider: I
Mike Pine: Yeah
I would prefer Roths, but
And that's the lesson I would
tell myself twenty-six years ago.
Year two thousand, I got my first job with
PWC where I could participate in a 401.
I did not maximize my contribution.
So, and when I say that,
you know, you can always put a lot
more away, but our employer, I can't
remember what
the match was.
I think it was up to like five percent or
four percent.
I
didn'tâ¦
You should always max the employer
contribution because it's free money
that's going into your investment account.
It's
your money.
Get that money from them.
Otherwise, you're justâ¦
It's like paying too much taxes.
You're Leaving money that
your employer would pay you.
Um, so you should always
maximize that.
Um, so another lesson
I learned.
What,
what
Kevin Schneider: else
would you tell yourself?
We're, we're kind of
running long here as
usual, because you talk too
much.
Yeah, that's
me.
Okay.
Yeah, I would say,
Man, don't be scared.
I think, I think that was you and
I's combined hurdle
in a lot of investing is we're scared
or
w- cause investing
' there's risk.
You have to
be willing
to lose, and that's what,
that's
what got me over
the hump, uh, 'cause we invest a lot into
oil now.
Mm.
Because of the tax benefits, and
we didn't invest into oil with
this forethought
of a, a war in the Middle East
and Iran shutting down the strait.
And then gas prices
shooting up and we're getting 30% ROI
in a month.
Uh, you
know, it's
crazy.
it's
been good.
But that's
Mike Pine: that's part of our
portfolio, so there's risks-
It might
Kevin Schneider: investing.
It might not happen though, right?
Yeah.
But
then
we're,
we're diversifying too.
Even if oil prices tanked
and oil and
gas
investment wasn't kicking off any
ROI,
you
got commodities.
I mean, that's gonna shield
you, and we have real estate.
It's this holistic tax plan and this
holistic picture that we're looking at
now, and I'm okay doing some risky things
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
in there because I have my safe stuff kind
Kevin Schneider: always
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
covering me.
Mike Pine: And I'll tell
you, investing in the
Kevin Schneider: stock market
Mike Pine: is taking
risk.
even in your 401and mutual funds.
Like- You have zero control.
Zero.
So there's risk there.
Um, â¦â¦we
saw a lot of
mutual funds
investing in stuff because of the
environmental friendliness and
not the actual value
provided to shareholders.
Like there's, there's risk.
But you can mitigate your
risk through diversification.
Take
risk, but mitigate it.
Understand the risk you're
taking.
Do due diligence, but
Kevin Schneider: make
investments
and seriously consider
tax-advantaged investments.
Yeah.
Oil's just such aâ¦
It's so good.
I mean, refer back to our
prior podcast, but just think
about oil and gas investing,
and then
I'll, I'll kind of wrap this up.
Like, if you took $100,000
and you bought $100,000
of
Apple
stock, you
do not deduct your investment
when
you buy
the stock.
That's
your basis, your 100 grand.
So now when you sell
Apple stock, the difference between
what you sell it for versus
what you paid for
it is your
gain.
When you invest in oil and gas,
and you invest $100,000 into oil
and
gas,
you're deducting
a good portion.
This year we're aiming for like
90% plus is
our hope, that you deduct $90,000 against
your W-2, against your business income.
Your 100,000 you deduct
And where if you
invested that hundred into
stock,
you're
Mike Pine: gonna
deduct it.
It's just your basis.
It's
just stuck there.
So, that is what it- So,
like an example isâ¦
And, and it's not just the ones we're
mentioning, but but let's do an example.
let's say you put this $100,000 in oil
and gas, and it's gotta be structured
right, to, to qualify
for for the benefit of being to
offset your active income with it.
But you structure right,
you
put in 100,000,
uh, you
get 75%, which is
industry average.
We're finding
ways to improve it with our
industry and and our partners.
But 75%, um, that means you get
to deduct $75,000 off of your taxable
income that year.
What is that really doing?
It's giving aboutâ¦
If you're in the top tax
rate, just considering fed
tax, forget state
tax.
We get to do that â¦in
Texas â¦because
we don't pay â¦â¦state
income tax.
But if you happen to be in
one of those other states that
aren't on board yet with,
you know, constitutionalism
and fairness and all
that, and you pay income
tax, you'll save a lot more.
But basically the
IRS gives you
$30,000 back for that
$100,000 investment you just made.
So you've got $100,000 investment, but you
really only paid $70,000 out of pocket.
The IRS put 30,000 in, and if it's a good
investment,
heck yeah.
But be careful with
oil and gas too, right?
Less than two out of 10 on
average retail oil and gas
Kevin Schneider: investments pay back
your money and give you a, a, positive
return on investment.
Um-
But
where there's risk, there's
reward, and that's why if you
look in the tax code, a lot
of heavy risk things
will have tax benefits
tied to it.
'Cause if these in-- If
these tax benefits weren't
available to investors,
how many people would
take the two out
of ten risk?
Not many,
if at all.
So that would stunt our
domestic oil and gas production.
So the in-
the, actual treasury is
like, "You know what we
need to do?
We need to incentivize our taxpayers
to invest in this industry because
otherwise no one's gonna take this risk."
Mike Pine: Sorry, I know we're trying
to end this, but I just gotta th-- go in
there 'cause that ex- that explains why
these incentives exist and are hidden
in the tax code.
These
incentives exist because our
country, it's, it's, not a
socialist country, it's not
purely capitalist.
It's some kind of balance.
But we useâ¦
Because taxes are such a
potential big noose around our economy's
neck, our government has realized, hey
look, the way we can direct capital
flow into things that our nation needs
is through the tax code.
It's, it's, it's a way
of controlling us kinda.
But
hey, accept it.
The government's in charge of
us right?
now, right?
We gotta, we gotta
submit to the authority we're under.
So when we had the bad gas lines
and OPEC and the Iran stuff in the
early
'70s and,
um, mid, mid to late '70s, it's
because our country was producing
a lot less oil than we were
consuming, and we were w- we were
kind of owned and controlled
by the Middle East.
And OPEC was saying,
"Hey, uh, sorry, guys.
Iran's
saying no, so we're not gonna send you
oil," or, "We're gonna ramp it up."
And we had a a crisis.
So what did the government
do?
They're like, Okay, we know
we as a government can't
Kevin Schneider: fix
this- Mm-hmm on our own,"
Mike Pine: which
is rare when the
government actually admits that.
I don't
think they do that anymore.
No.
But back then- Humility ⦠â¦â¦they're
like, "We can't fix this on our
own, but we're gonna provide
this incentive for people
to produce oil
and gas and take the risk here in the US."
Now, we produce more oil and gas,
more hydrocarbons than we consume.
We're a net exporter.
That was tax incentive.
So we're not
trying
to teach people to cheat.
We're trying to teach you
guys, revolutionize the way
you
see taxes and the tax code by
following those incentives hidden
inside the tax
code.
It shouldn't be hidden.
We're revealing it to you, so that you
can grow your net worth much faster and do
Kevin Schneider: do your patriotic
duty and make things like us energy
independent.
If
you had a mic, you
could- just drop it.
We have
lapels.
You can just unclip and drop it, you know?
I'm,
Mike Pine: I,
Kevin Schneider: I'm afraid if I do
that,
something will happen or
Bruce
Mike Pine: will yell
'cause it'll hurt her ears
or something.
Welcome: the mic drop.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
or something.
That's called the mic drop, but yeah.
Yeah.
Welcome: mic, mic
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
drop.
Mic's mic drop.
Mic
Welcome: Mic
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
drop.
There you
Kevin Schneider: yell
Mike Pine: Yeah.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
So thanks for
Kevin Schneider: it.
That's called the Mic
drop.
But Yeah.
Mic, mic, mic drop.
mic, Mic drop.
There you go.
So thanks for joining us.
Hopefully, you found this entertaining.
You can laugh at our fails, but,
um, yeah,
don't be scared to invest.
But learn from your mistakes.
But if you haven't started,
start now.
There's no better
time than now.
Real estate
should go up.
We can't guarantee that, but
if you
buy a house
today, it's gonna go up.
If you
buy an investment today,
hopefully
it goes up.
So
no
better time to start than now.
Um, do your research.
Make sure they're
tax advan-
advantageous
investments.
Save
on
your taxes,
invest your money.
Um, and if you need help with
that, please reach out to us.
Go to revotaxpayer.com.
Uh, you can go there and you can learn
more information about us, and you can
even schedule a free call with one of
our team members and
tell us moreâ¦
We
could tell you more about your-- our
firm, and you could tell us more about
yourself, and then link you up with a
Mike Pine: personalized consult and
see how we can actually serve you.
So thank you for joining us this episode.
Yeah.
Please like and subscribe,
and we're gonna offer this
one time offer.
It might be a continuing offer,
but do please like and subscribe.
That'll help us get our message
out through these logarithms that
work.
I don't understand them.
But for the best
commentary on this episode,
whether it's about tax advantage
investments, whether it's
lessons you've learned in
investments, or my
personal favorite, whether
it's
making fun of my partner Kevin
here, the best commentary will
receive a free tax consult with
Kevin and myself at the same
time.
Um, solely subjective on what
Kevin and I think about it.
But man,
if you do a good one with
him, you got a free consult.
Only one.
6.3.26 Recording - 03 June 2026 - 01-35-58 PM:
One-time offer, so
please do your comments.
Thank you very much for being here.
Thank you for listening to this episode.
Revo Taxpayer Advocacy LLC is not licensed
or registered as a CPA firm with the
Texas State Board of Public Accountancy.
I'm a CPA, Kevin's a CPA.
We have a lot of CPAs on staff that are
licensed and held to the same standards.
However, when we decided to be
revolutionary and change our
name to Revell Taxpayer Advocacy,
the state board would not allow
that and let us remain licensed.
They say we have to have one
of our names in the firm for
us to be licensed as a firm.
And guess what?
It's not us that's important.
It's revolutionizing the way you feel
about taxes and saving you money.
We are advocates for you, so we were
willing to drop our firm license even
though we're still individually licensed.