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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
Tyson (00:00.329)
Yeah, sweet man. All right, ready to roll? Awesome, awesome man. Well, it's good to have a chance to finally sit down with you. I'd gone back and forth to a couple of your podcasts, that Triathlon Show, I believe was the first place that I found you. And I was saying to you just a moment ago that, I mean, this is a really good thing for me. This podcast seems to have opened up to the world of triathlon and.
TriDoc (00:05.198)
Here we go.
Tyson (00:28.007)
endurance training and coaching in general, rather than just that of specifically distance running, which is, mean, it's amazing how many of the principles of endurance training cross over to so many sports. So I guess it's not so much of a surprise, but I guess as a way of a start, man, for anyone who hasn't heard of you before, are not familiar with what it is that you do, I thought we could just lay the foundation with that. And then, then we could get into talking about, you know, some of the fundamental elements of endurance training.
TriDoc (00:58.072)
Sure. Nothing pleases me more than going on and on about myself. So why not? Right. Let's see. I am an emergency physician. I am a dad and I'm a reformed ice hockey player. I originally from Montreal in Canada where I grew up and played a lot of ice hockey, being in the home of the famous Montreal Canadians for any of your listeners who are
know anything about ice hockey. And, when I finished my residency training and my fellowship training for becoming a physician, I was very much out of, out of shape and overweight and find Mount found myself at a position where I really was going to have a lot more free time because my training was done and also wanted to get myself back into better health. And so I started doing small things, changed the way I changed the way I ate.
started incorporating some exercise, predominantly some weight training, but I also did a little bit of endurance stuff with biking and running. And a friend eventually introduced me to the world of triathlon, which at the first I had never heard of except for the Ironman in Hawaii. And that was not something I was interested in being someone who didn't even know how to swim. And eventually just kind of found myself trying this new challenge and
became very quickly addicted to it and was an endurance sport adherent pretty much from that point. And so it's been over 20 years now that I've been participating in triathlon and in running events and cycling events. And it really did change my life very much for the better. I think it made me a better person. It made me a better father for sure. My children are very much
following in my footsteps by staying active and eating well and doing doing things that I think will lead them to be much healthier than I was when I was in my 20s and 30s and as I kind of got more experienced in multi -sport I wanted to kind of give back to the sport that had given me so much and so I started a podcast I well before that I had actually been writing for several different publications in the world of triathlon as
TriDoc (03:17.568)
a physician providing medical content. And then I started a podcast called the Try Doc podcast, where I talk about the intersection between health wellness and triathlon, as well as other endurance sports. And then I started becoming certified as a coach and I've now been coaching for five years as a endurance coach. I coach some runners, I coach some cyclists, but the predominance of my athletes are triathletes and different multi -sport athletes. And yeah, that's, that's, that's me in a nutshell.
Tyson (03:46.495)
Yeah. It's interesting to hear you say that you'd finished your training as a physician and you realized that you're a little out of shape. That's a story that I mean, I've heard time and time again, it's interesting that so many of you guys during one of the more challenging part of your life in, know, becoming equipped to be able to help us navigate our health, have to sacrifice so much of yours with sleep deprivation and long hours and random routines. It's interesting. I've just finished a book.
called Good Energy, which has come out fairly recently for anyone interested. It's written by a chick called Casey Means, was, she was a physician. She was a doctor, like a ear, nose and throat surgeon, I believe she was for a number of years. And her story was that she'd kind of gone down the rabbit hole of surgery and just practicing as a doctor and then realizing she was seeing so many of the same patients over and over again. And
while she was seeing them over and over again, she also realized her health was terrible, which was like a wake up call for her to get involved in, you know, not triathlon or endurance running specifically, but just training in general. It's interesting that you take a physician out of that in that shape.
and they apply that same kind of mindset that they applied to their studies. And pretty quickly, it's no surprise that you become an addict in the sport of endurance. seems to have that reputation for sucking us right in. What did that initial transition look like? Was it just this quite gentle exercise or did you go sort of hook line and sink?
TriDoc (05:20.014)
well, so just to get back to that point about physicians kind of becoming that way, it's not all of us. think I worked with a lot of people who were better about maintaining their health, but there's no question. It's hard to eat well because you tend to be always just grabbing whatever you can. And that tends, you tend to make poor choices because what's available tends to often be fast food and
You don't tend to have a lot of time to dedicate to yourself and it's interesting because now I see my training as respite and as absolutely integral to my mental health and I wish I knew then what I knew now because I would have taken the time to run or bike or do some kind of physical activity because I I could have found 30 to 60 minutes a day to do something but it just it wasn't part of my
being at that point, I played ice hockey, which I was able to squeeze into my schedule. So it would have been easy to find some way to do some kind of exercise. But again, it just wasn't who I was. So when I decided to finally do something about it, I actually bought a book, cause I really didn't know where to start. And I bought a book, one of these like, you know, get yourself, you know, improve your life kind of thing. And it was a book called body for life, which basically it tried to condense everything into a
You know, you could do this on 30 minutes a day. And most of the time that 30 minutes was in the gym lifting weights, which some, which was something I had done before and was comfortable getting back to, but it threw in, doing some endurance as well. So it threw in 30 minutes of running or, or cycling or something that you did. I think it was three times a week and then you did weights the other four days. And then you had, just a renewed or.
renewed focus on how you ate. And I think it was those two, those two things, just introducing a small amount of exercise a day, which was easy to commit to and then changing the way I ate. And it wasn't long before I dropped quite a bit of weight pretty quickly. And I went from 210 pounds, I think to 190 in the course of probably two and a half months. And, after that, I was introduced to this idea of doing multi -sport and then I, then it got
TriDoc (07:42.058)
much more involved in terms of how I was exercising.
Tyson (07:47.017)
Yeah, I always find that fascinating that transition into exercise and how even starting out doing something which in hindsight might seem relatively small, just to build the momentum, the confidence, the consistency can start laying some really positive results. I listened to a guy in the finance world from time to time called Dave Ramsey and he's got something he calls the snowball effect, which is not claiming as his own, but when he's talking about debt.
He often speaks about how people, they'll try and pay off their biggest debts first and lose all confidence with their ability to do it. So he says, let's flip that on the head. Let's get rid of the $4 debt and we'll just gradually work our way up. And I think it correlates beautifully sometimes into the world of endurance sport or fitness in general. Sometimes we make that decision that we're going to get on board and get fit or get healthy. go, okay, I have to run an ultra marathon, but
I don't know, like a lap of the block is a really good place to start. that kind of, it lured you in, you saw some results and then what was from there, you said you started to get more of an interest in the multi -sport specifically.
TriDoc (08:51.15)
Yeah, well, you know, I learned so much and I love that comparison with paying off debt and manageable amounts because I learned so much from endurance sport. And one of the first thing I learned was you don't have to sort of look at the end goal, which seems so far away. Like, I mean, when I weighed 210 pounds, the idea of getting down to where I am now, which is 160 would have been insane. Like I, I would have looked at that and just been like, I can't do that. And instead I just.
told myself I've got to take the first steps and those first steps were just making a small change in how I ate. And then, well, at the time it was probably a bigger change, but you know, I had to change the way I ate. had to be focused on that. I had to be methodical, but then I just had to integrate 30 minutes a day. If I could just do 30 minutes a day and stick to that for a few months and just see what came of it, then it would be easier at that point to kind of
move on to something else. And that's how I've kind of always approached everything in my endurance sport life is, is I try not to look at the overarching goal because the overarching goal can look really huge. If you're going from the couch to an ultra that's, that's gigantic. But if you tell yourself, you know what, I'm to go from the couch, I'm going to do a 5k in six weeks or two months. That becomes a much more achievable goal. And then once you've done that 5k, then it's like, okay.
I'm going to do a 10K in another two months. And before you know it, you're just escalating and you're moving along, but nothing happens unless you take those first steps and you really commit to them. And that was, that was a really valuable lesson that I've learned. And I try to teach everybody that I work with is just get out the door. You know, sometimes you don't feel like doing a workout. And I, my son who's taken up cross country and has become very, very, just a phenomenal cross country runner.
He had days when he first started committing himself to training where he just was like, gosh, I just don't feel like it today. And I said to him, said, Adam, just go out and run to the corner. And if you're not feeling it, when you get to the corner, just turn around and come back. But if you are, if if you made it to the corner and it's okay, just go one more block. And if you're not feeling it, turn around and come back. You know what? He never once came back. He always did the whole run because it was just getting out the door, getting past that initial negative thought.
TriDoc (11:11.756)
that he was able to do so much. And I have found that to be a very effective sort of mind tool that I use in everything. And I got that from this journey. So you asked me how I ended up getting to multi -sport. It's like, was fluke. It was total fluke. was working in a new job. I had lost a bunch of weight and one of my new coworkers.
At a dinner we were having, which was sort of a welcome dinner, she was sitting next to me and she, she said, I noticed you've been losing weight. What have you done to do that? And I told her, said, well, I've been doing a lot of weight training, a little bit of running and biking. And she said, well, you know, you should do a triathlon. And that's, I laughed because I said, the only triathlon I've ever heard of is the Ironman in Hawaii. And I am not doing that race. And.
You know, we got to talking and she explained how triathlon is not just the Ironman and we talked and over the course of dinner, she convinced me that I could learn how to swim. I did not know how to swim, but she convinced me I could learn how to swim and I could do this. And I went home and I told my wife who had not been at that dinner. said, you know what? I'm thinking about doing a triathlon. And she just laughed. She just thought that was hilarious. And so that was it. I was like, well, before I was thinking about it now I'm doing it. And I don't know.
20 something years later, and I don't even want to tell you how much money spent. don't know. I don't know if she's happy or sad that I took it up, but, on the whole, that's led to a lot of.
Tyson (12:37.673)
Yeah, happy when she wakes up in the morning and sees the physique of the bloke next to her, but not happy when she wakes up and sees the bank account of the, yeah. I know I've heard some stories about you triathletes when it comes to bikes and gear and yeah, there's no shortage of cash which is being splashed out there. But man, you said something which I think serves as a really nice start to the conversation because one thing that I've enjoyed hearing you speak is just the principles.
TriDoc (12:43.0)
You
you
Tyson (13:05.543)
or the way that you speak about developing momentum, consistency, fitness, in whatever it is that you're doing really, but I mean, more specifically to us in endurance sport, with your son, Adam, that block to block principle, like just get the shoes on, get to the first block if you wanna come back, such a great place to start. And I mean, it's not a real groundbreaking.
point to make, it's often the really simple things that seem to have such a significant effect if they're done consistently. And I like that because often it doesn't matter whether I'm involved in the world of stand -up comedy and often the discipline of sitting down to write comedy for half an hour or an hour.
the sitting down part is the hardest for me. But once I get in and get involved, I go, okay, well, here we are, you you're getting a little bit of momentum. And the same is true with running often, it's just getting on the shoes and getting out the door and turning the legs over. your, once your legs are rolling, you're good to go. And this is probably one of the central themes of what people contact me about, whether it's through the athletes that I coach or...
just through the podcast, people sending emails is like, what do I need to do to actually get fit? And I thought, well, you probably know what you need to do to get fit, but it's a matter of how you actually get yourself in the position to do those things that you need to do. And I said to you before we started recording that I'd love to, you know, maybe spend a little bit of time just going through some practical principles for developing your endurance, developing your fitness, regardless of.
what level of performance you're at. That's a really nice place to start. He's just getting those simple things done. But I mean, if you have a new athlete come to you and go, I mean, I'm sure it varies based on the fitness, based on the goals, based on so many factors, but is there some general principles that you'll apply or you'll at least consider when structuring the training program of an athlete that you're trying to prepare for their event?
TriDoc (15:10.862)
100%. Absolutely. It starts, I think, first and foremost, just understanding and getting to know what the athlete's history is. Because I have had some people come to me who are complete new beginners who are they don't know the first thing about triathlon. They're just literally getting off the couch because
They've had the kind of revelation I did, or they decided, you know what, I'm turning 40 next year and this is a bucket list thing. There's all kinds of reasons people make these decisions, but I get those athletes. But then I also, I had a couple of people that started with me this year who were very, very accomplished runners and they decided they wanted to do an Ironman. And so it was a very different kind of picture as to how you build the schedule for
those two different kinds of people where they have a lot of experience or they have no experience. And so as a physician, somebody who's been doing this for over 20 years, somebody who's gained a lot of experience from my own trial and error, I spend a lot of time getting to know my athletes, getting to know their strengths and their weaknesses. I want to know what are the things that are limiting them. Sometimes it's that mental stuff like, Hey, I have trouble just getting out the door.
But sometimes they're super eager and the limiter actually is the need to take rest. And I like to get that out of the way right at the beginning. And I say, listen, I'm somebody who believes very strongly in the power of recovery and the power of rest. So there, need to know that when I give you a rest day or a rest week that you're going to follow those, that schedule. And, but you know, in terms of principles, I am very, very focused on injury prevention. So I am.
really all about a slow build and that, you know, with, with triathlon, we're lucky because we have the three sports and we know that running is the one that is most associated with injury. So I have the luxury of being able to intersperse running with swimming and biking. So I can layer on the running really slowly over several months to get people running at the volume they need to be running at before I start introducing things like speed work or really long runs.
TriDoc (17:20.957)
And all the while I'm building their fitness by doing increasingly difficult swim sets, increasingly difficult bike rides, because those are much less frequently associated with injuries. But at the same time, I have to be training them on things like proper nutrition. How do you fuel for your workouts? How do you fuel for these long races? Because I'm like in a running race where
It's hard to take in nutrition and you're only going to be out there except for ultras where of course you're out there for a lot longer. But for a marathon, you may only be out there for four or five hours and you can get enough just with gels along the route. When you're doing a half Ironman that takes, you know, six hours to eight hours, you have to get a lot of calories in, especially on the bike. so teaching people how to do that, teaching people how to manage transitions.
There's all of these things that are sort of layered into the process, but my fundamental principle is do as much as possible with, you know, do as much as the athlete can do the individual athlete can do without exposing them to the risks of injury. And that means integrating strength into the program early and often. That means being very, very communicative with the athlete so that I get word anytime the first little.
you know, signs of anything starts to show up so that we can modify things and being very, very conscious of integrating rest and recovery into the schedule at regular intervals, because I push them hard and they're big training blocks and they're big build blocks. But then we rest and recover really well. frequently hear from athletes, wow, I was so ready for that recovery week. And that means that I've been doing things right.
Tyson (19:05.951)
Yeah, the recovery is a really interesting subject. actually, had Craig Alexander for anyone who's from the distance running world, not as familiar, he's three time Ironman world champion, really renowned for not only his big training weeks, but the things that he did in and around his actual specific.
training for the event so -called like the swim, the bike, the run and every principle that you just mentioned then were things that he touched on very briefly in the conversation that we had the other day and I just remember thinking that there's a certain element of distance runners or there's a certain group of distance runners I think who can see the benefit of a really well laid out structure.
of focus points like we've just said but there's so many athletes that they fall victim to this idea that if you want to improve then run more.
run harder and do that for as long as you can and just good luck the survival of the fittest. But one thing which is often forgotten and one thing that I'm constantly banging on about is this idea that, yeah, like you just said, the recovery days or the recovery weeks are just as important as the really intense sessions. And maybe we could launch off with that because I think recovery is a really overlooked area of endurance performance.
When you're speaking about recovery, whether it's a day or a week, are you speaking about simply time off feet or what are you referring to when you're actually saying recovery?
TriDoc (20:33.23)
Yeah. So I'm a real firm believer in active recovery, mainly because I'm older, right? I'm 57. I've been doing this now for a long time. And I have always found that if I like take a day off, I just feel stiff and sore when I get back to it. And I have always felt like active recovery in the form of just an easy day. And that easy day is often for me as a triathlete, that is just an easy spin on the bike, spinning at low power.
for like an hour, maybe an hour and a half. And just that, that is enough to keep the blood circulating through the legs, to remove all the evil humors, to help with recovery, to help with rebuilding all the things. Nutrition's a big part of recovery. Of course, you want to make sure you're taking in adequate protein to rebuild all the muscle that's been kind of broken down by the training you've been doing. But active recovery for me is the way to go. I have a couple of athletes who are like, I really need the day off. I try to...
try to negotiate, but sometimes they just really feel like the day off is important to them and that's fine. I'm more than happy to meet in the middle, but my own experience, especially with older athletes and by older, mean late thirties and on has always been that active recovery is better than just being right off. And when I give a recovery week, it's usually a big drop off in volume and a big drop in intensity so that they're continuing to move the whole week long.
They're just doing so with much lower intensity and for less time. just that continuous movement allows for that consistency, which I think is just so important for getting you to where you want to go over time. And then also for just recovery and restoration, just because you're keeping moving.
Tyson (22:24.203)
Yeah, rear running or triathlon has the reputation of rewarding those athletes who are the most consistent. I'm very similar to you. I don't like the fact that I'm starting to be included in the older age group athletes. Now I'm 37, but I mean, it's the direction.
TriDoc (22:38.446)
Yeah. And I mean, honestly, ages, often ages is kind of a mental construct in a way. Like I don't feel 57. Like I say, I'm 57 and I actually catch myself going, wow, I don't feel 57. My kids are always like, you're not 57, dad, you look like whatever. I'm like, but, the reality is, is I, there things have changed, right? Like I can't do back to back really hard days the way I used to.
I need a little bit more time to recover. I still can race fairly close together. Like I've done races separated by about two weeks and have actually done pretty well. So in that sense, things are good, but I think that's a reflection of the fact that I'm so consistent with my training, not a reflection of the fact that things have changed because of age, but there's no question. I definitely feel how things have changed with my age.
My speed hasn't dropped off that much, but it is starting to change a little bit. And while 37 is certainly not 57, there's no question that 37 is not 27. And I think the sooner we kind of all get our heads wrapped around the fact that, look, we just have to deal with it and it just is what it is, but we don't have to accept it as a, like I have never looked at my age and said, well,
That means I'm going to perform less better than I did last year. have never ever accepted that. I go out, I work just as hard. I show up at the start line for every event thinking I'm going to perform just as well as I did the year before. And if I don't, I have to ask myself, well, is it the age or is it the fact that I just didn't show up as ready or maybe I didn't execute as well? I mean, there are other reasons, right? But at the end of the day, it may just be because of age.
So it's, just one thing that we put in there. And I don't want to insinuate that anybody in their late thirties can't still improve because I will say that I got into triathlon very late. I started in my sort of late thirties and I was still seeing improvements in my times well into my fifties. So, and that, that is, that is
Tyson (24:25.611)
sure.
TriDoc (24:51.464)
There's a lot of reasons for that. It's not just because I was getting better, but it's because I had more time to train as I got older, right? My kids got older and so it was easier for me to train more. I got smarter about how I raised. got more fit. I was more consistent with my training. It was a lot of things that played into that. But at the end of the day, you can continue to improve if you're smarter about your training and smarter about the way you do things well into your forties, fifties.
Age does not have to be necessarily a detriment, but we still have to remember that it is a factor.
Tyson (25:26.687)
Yeah, for sure. That's a really good point. love how you've broken that down as well because I think when it comes to race results or training results will often attribute a drop in performance to something like we'll say, it's just this, like it's just age. And I think for me, I know when I catch myself doing that, a lot of the time it's more of an emotional response rather than like a logical breakdown of what's gone well or what's gone poorly. Like it's easier to say, I'm just getting older than it is to say, okay, well I missed a period there because I had an eagle or I had a cold
or I was navigating whatever it might be. And I think that in itself is a principle that I often try and convey to the athletes that I coach with because I noticed this trend a lot. There seems to be a certain mindset who are a lot more logical. I would say I'm probably a lot more emotional in the way that I approach life than a mathematician or something, but I often glean insights from that mindset that I find very helpful to me. now.
at the end of, as I mentioned before, whether it's a comedy set or a race result, rather than just sitting down and going, was a good race or it was a bad race, and that's all it is. Like, okay, hey, what were a couple of things that went well? What were a couple of things that we could have done better? Why is it that we could have done those things better? And I think that factor is something that I often see as beneficial to...
every athlete because it seems as though with an approach like that, you actually walk away not only being able to recognise the positives even in a negative result, but also figure out what it was that you need to adjust and adapt for the next time around.
TriDoc (26:59.278)
Yeah, I could not agree more. I've been doing this for 20 years because I still haven't had a perfect race. And as much as I've had some great results, I can still in every race I do find at least one thing that I'm happy about and one thing that I need to work on. And as long as that continues, I will continue to find joy and discovery in this sport. And I challenge anybody to tell me that they've had the perfect race and that, I mean,
I would say Alex Yee, who just won the gold medal in Paris. He's still racing. I would bet you he would say that even Paris wasn't a perfect race for him. mean, so everybody, everybody can find something to take away from every event, from every training session they do. you know, I think that it's super important to always be reflective and always be sure when you're being reflective to not focus.
on one side of the scale or the other. Don't be don't be just focusing on everything that went well and and certainly don't be focusing on things that went bad. I too many times in my own past, I would spend the whole day after an event just angry and bitter and all upset about all the things that went badly. And it would take my wife saying to me, she's like, Why are you doing this? I thought you're doing this because it's fun. And she had to get me back as always count on my wife to balance me.
And to bring me back to where I need to be. And, yeah, now I am very, very conscious to always find joy in every event that I do. And even it doesn't matter how badly it went. I can always find, you know, mean, even if it just comes down to, you know what? I'm alive today. And I did something that I love doing. I got to start be on the start line. So you could always find something positive.
Tyson (28:46.025)
Yeah. So interesting to hear that your wife plays the same role in your relationship as mine does in mine.
TriDoc (28:53.814)
I think wives, wives the world's over probably play that role.
Tyson (28:58.715)
My wife doesn't get enough credit. Yeah, she's a she's an unqualified sports psychologist that is far more effective than some that I've paid incredible amounts of money to go and see based on the fact she understands how emotional I can get about ridiculous things. It's very funny to hear you say that. I love it. It's a theme I've actually noticed speaking to a lot of people on the podcast.
I'm interested you've mentioned, so we've sort of touched on recovery a little bit. We've touched on consistency and just building up more slowly. One subject that I'm really fascinated by at the moment, and I think just for a little context for you, last year, start of 2023, I got back involved in distance running after a few years away from any structured.
kind of training. I'd keep fit, I'd go for a jog a few times a week, I'd go to the gym, but I decided to get back into some marathon running. And after about seven years away, one of the first problems I had was I was navigating my way through a lot of calf strains. And this is that learning factor. I I had never had injuries really when I was running. was really quite lucky with how consistent I was for such a long period of time.
as a result was very beneficial to me when I was competing at a high level, but it was very unhelpful to me when it came to the situation that I was in, because my mindset was, all right, well, I'll just get back into training and my body will just adjust like it used to and I'll be good to go again. And that lasted about six weeks before I got my first calf strain and then trying to navigate my way through that. And long story short was,
adjusted a few things from strength training to a gradual buildup to like a reduction in some intensity and I had about 12 months of just I did not miss a beat that was sort of I don't know what in miles but it was about between sort of 60 and 80 kilometers a week say 40 to 50 miles a week for a year round and then after
Tyson (31:00.491)
Yeah, say 50 weeks of that. had a gym session where I was doing like a heavy calf workout. The rest of my training load had been adjusted and adapted because I was in a higher mileage phase of a marathon buildup. And I think I probably added a little too much load, got out and strained my calf again. This is about a month ago now.
Say all that because even though was being cautious, I was applying the principles that we were talking about. There was a slight oversight, which in hindsight, I probably should have corrected. Like every other part of the weight training phase had been reduced because I was in such a high taper, but I'd been in such a consistent process of making sure I was adding load to my calves that just didn't cross my mind that that would be something that had to be adapted as well. The strength training, the recovery, the slow buildup.
The thing surrounding the actual running was, think, a really huge factor in just that consistent improvement and consistency over that last 12 months. That sort of recovery, that sort of strength, you mentioned nutrition. What are the other factors that you would consider sort of the glue to keep your body together when it comes to performing well in your case in the triathlon or in my case over a marathon?
TriDoc (32:21.368)
Yeah, injuries, injuries and how we handle them as endurance athletes are tough as a runner. It's particularly tough because you're running and running is so injury prone. And then when you can't run, you're kind of stuck. As I said, at least for us, we've, we've got the other two sports we can go to and generally, mean, unless you broke something, if you broke something, then you're kind of right out. But, yeah, injuries are really tough and avoiding them is, is really.
something we all strive to do. think that I kind of view injury prevention as it's very much a long -term project. And in terms of maintaining a positive kind of trajectory in terms of your training and getting your events and everything, I think you have to have a lot of things come together. And
There's going to be these random little things like, you know, like you said, one day in the weight room that, that you just sometimes can't anticipate. You could be walking across the street and step into like a pothole, right? I mean, there's going to be things you can't account for, but if you want to mitigate the risks, I think the best things you can do is ensure that you're following a trajectory that layers on the volume in a very predictable way. never want to be jumping.
huge amount from one week to the next. And that even goes from coming off a recovery week. Like let's say you were running 60 kilometers one week, and then you go down to your recovery week where you're only running 25. You don't want to go up to 80 the next week, because that's a huge jump and that that's putting yourself at risk. So you want to go through a periodization where you might go from 25, then you go to 40, then you go back to 60, then you go to 80, something like that. If that's assuming you've had a very long build into
being able to tolerate those kinds of volumes. So I think that being conscientious about how you layer on volume is a big one. Strength training, integrating it into your routine all year round is huge. There's a growing body of evidence. It's still small, but it is a growing body of evidence that does suggest that strength training can help.
TriDoc (34:33.09)
with mitigating the risk of injuries. It's not gonna take the risk away. And as you learned, unfortunately, it can actually contribute in some cases. But for the most part, if you do strength training in a thoughtful way, it's really helpful. Nutrition is a big one. Protein intake is generally lower than it should be for most athletes. And so making sure that you're getting adequate protein is gonna go a long way towards helping with recovery and helping with...
making sure that you maintain your muscle mass. As we get older, that's a big problem and we have to make sure that we increase protein to go along with that. And then we talked a lot about recovery in terms of recovery weeks, recovery days, but recovery every single day in the form of adequate sleep, which is something that as we get older becomes more and more difficult. And for someone like me who works in shift work and has very unpredictable sleeping hours, it's a real problem. And I know I'm not a
There's a lot of people that have jobs like I do and you get older, it becomes harder to sleep. Fortunately, you don't need quite as much, but still getting as much as you possibly can to ensure that you're able to maintain your training and keep yourself healthy is very important. So those are the things that I would say is nutrition, proper structure of your training program, incorporating continually good strength training and then adequate sleep.
That would be the big four that I would say would be the best. I don't include this because it's just a natural part of what I do with multi -sport, but the ability to cross -train and having that ability to move between sport to sports as a non -runner. I'm not always running, which is the highest risk. And so you're much less likely to incur injuries when you are able to balance across three different sports.
But as a runner, there, are ways to maintain your fitness without having to run seven days a week. And I know a lot of runners do, or at least maintaining this understanding that you don't have to run hard all the time. Right? I mean, there's, there's a various ways there's 80, 20, there's, all this like polarized training and stuff like that. I'm not sure that I've never subscribed to 80, 20, because I think it's a little bit too much emphasis on low, low, efforts, but.
TriDoc (36:56.118)
I think the concept makes a lot of sense. Spend more of your time training at a low effort and less of your time training at the higher risk, higher effort, and you're more likely to stay healthy.
Tyson (37:08.361)
Yeah, I think this is one thing distance runners in general can pick up from triathletes is your ability to cross train is a real standout feature. Like from an outsider's point of view, looking at the world of triathlon, you can't help but notice the, you know, for lack of a better term, the luxury of options that you have when it comes to cross training. But in saying that Gordo Byrne, when he was on the show a while ago, spoke to runners about this idea. He says, you know, runners think I've got to run a marathon. So my long run has to be two and a half hours.
But if you're at a point in your buildup where your fitness can only allow you to run 50 minutes or an hour, he goes, well, why not substitute that with getting on the bike? Like do your hour run. And then if you're trying to make those metabolic changes that jump on a bike and, you know, continue that zone to effort without that weight bearing going through your legs and your quads. And thought that was a real standout feature. Cause from a bloke who's been in the sport for 25 years, was, I mean, it was nothing that I've ever applied.
Granted, I was more a middle distance runner when I was actually competing at a higher level. It's only the last 18 months of marathons become a really interesting event to me. And some of these principles have started to become more obvious. But I mean, there's an Australian Olympian, Genevieve Gregson, who I had her on the podcast a couple of years ago. And I remember one thing that she mentioned was she was constantly struggling with, I think it was lower leg injuries and
She eliminated her second run from the day and alternated with either some work on the elliptical or just some water running. And like the options that you have to get your heart rate up are quite broad. But I think it's, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I think a lot of the time it's the mindset that accompanies it. It's like, no, I want to be a runner, so I have to run.
TriDoc (38:54.573)
Yeah.
Tyson (38:54.601)
Whereas sometimes the benefits of an alternative approach of getting the heart rate up might in fact be a better long -term option.
TriDoc (39:02.616)
Well, I think it's, it's not a perfect solution, right? Because there's no question that if you're going to run a marathon, there's no substitute for actually putting in the miles. mean, getting your body trained to be able to adapt, to be able to handle the load. You're not going to get that by riding a bike. You're not going to get that by water running. You're not going to get that by swimming. you're not going to get that on the elliptical, but you'll get that. You can certainly get the cardiovascular fitness to get your body through it.
But I do think that we have to be careful to say that it's definitely a one for one trade because it is not. There's no question when my athletes are injured and they can't run, I feel confident that they're going to maintain their running fitness by doing more biking and more swimming. And they know that, but they also know that once they get back to running, it's not going to be super comfortable because they have to rebuild that muscular strength. have to rebuild all of the things that.
That because look, mean, your foot comes down to the ground. It's 10 times your body weight. There's no way to prepare you for that. And, so running, running can definitely be augmented by doing some of these other things. can't really be substituted, but I think that for somebody who is dealing with injuries or is dealing with just a shortened course of training,
No question, rather than trying to ramp up their, their running volume in a way that's unsustainable or that that's not that that's potentially going to put them at risk for injury. Adding some of these other things is a great way to at least augment their cardiovascular fitness so that they have that going into whatever their event is now that, know, that would still bring it to question whether or not you should be doing a marathon if you don't have the time to train for it properly. But if you're in one of these.
groups and there are people who have the time to train for it properly, but are just very injury prone for whatever reason. That person definitely can make use of this strategy of, of adding these other activities. Elliptical is a great one. The biking is certainly a terrific one. And something that I give to my athletes who don't get a chance to run as much volume as, as runners do is I'll split their long run. And that's something that runners can do as well. you mentioned Genevieve doing two runs. Well,
TriDoc (41:25.41)
This is different. don't, I don't mean somebody doing two hard runs or two long runs a day, but rather taking that two and a half hour run that they're supposed to be able to do towards the end, towards the end in their training for their marathon. And instead having them go out and run, okay, I want you to run an hour and a half in the morning. And then five to six hours later, go out and run an hour. You've run two and a half hours. Now, is it the same as running two and a half together? No, I absolutely, it is not. However,
you are accomplishing much more than if you just ran an hour and a half. So I think there are ways to be creative about it. And I think there are ways that you can do it that mitigate the likelihood of somebody getting injured and still keep a lot of the benefits.
Tyson (42:10.559)
Yeah, I like the word creative for that description a lot of the time.
TriDoc (42:14.094)
Well, that's what a coach is for, right? A coach is, a coach is, you know, I tell people all the time, why do you want to coach? You want to coach to hold you accountable. You want to coach to take off of your plate. This idea that I need to figure out how to make training fit my life because I'm working too hard trying to make life fit my training and it's not working. And I say, well, that's where I come in. I am here to make training fit your life. And I can be creative in order to try and make that happen because I understand as a physician, a dad.
I coach myself, a podcaster, I've got a lot of balls in the air. So I have a coach because I need someone to do that. I, a coach is there to be outside eyes, to be able to, look at what you're doing and to be able to say, you know, I think we need to do a little more of this, or I think we need to do a little less of that or whatever. And a coach is there as a resource. Coaches there as somebody that you can turn to and say, what did you think about that workout I did today? Did it go well? And you know, I've got this marathon. What do you think about this course versus a different course?
That's what a coach is for. is for those four big things. And then on top of it, layered over all of it, is keeping you healthy and keeping you from getting injured.
Tyson (43:19.349)
That's really good. Yeah. What I always enjoyed about the coaches I worked with is I was as much as my coaches cared about my results, I knew that they weren't as emotionally connected to them as what I was. And I know I've mentioned that a couple of times. I could be giving away too many secrets of my personality at the moment, I'm a passionate guy, but it is interesting how, how the filter of emotion can change the way you see it or limit your ability to, you know, see the next best move.
correctly and to have someone who cares but isn't just at the whim of your own emotions to help navigate what a training session looks like is also very beneficial. The sleep thing is one that I'm obviously very aware of if it's, despite the fact that at the moment I've got a, context, four year old and a one year old.
at my house, both aren't sleeping that well. So I've never done it before. after reading that book, Good Energy that I mentioned by Casey Means at the start of the podcast, she just talks about wearables and how sometimes tracking things like sleep.
even if it's not completely perfect, can at least open the door to where it is in the cycle, sorry, where you are in the cycle of healthy to unhealthy with that particular habit. And what I've realised even in a week is mine is incredibly random. Some nights I sleep like a legend. Some nights I don't even wanna look at my watch based on the fact that I've been smacked around.
TriDoc (44:53.132)
Yeah, yeah.
Tyson (44:55.187)
This is a broad question, it's a difficult one to answer because obviously people are in such different phases of life. Obviously there's things that you can do when there's not an outside interruption to your sleep like a kid or whatever it might be. Someone in my situation, what advice do you give? Is it just, hey, just ride it out, do your best you can with what you've got? Because I find it frustrating that I can't nail sleep.
Because even if I had the perfect lead in, dimmed the lights, had the LED, whatever, the blue light, sunglasses on, I could have the perfect lead up and then at two o 'clock my son goes, I don't really care, I need you.
TriDoc (45:34.828)
Yeah, answer that question and you will be a very wealthy person because I think that is a problem that, yeah, that's a problem that everybody faces. I will tell you that I have heard, I actually interviewed a woman on my podcast who told me she's from the Netherlands and she said, the Dutch are very different about the way they sleep.
Tyson (45:39.93)
I'm giving you the opportunity.
TriDoc (45:57.996)
She was talking in the context that she was getting up like in at four in the morning to go and do all of her training because she has several kids and she will really training was very important to her. And the only way she could do it is if she got up before her kids got up. And so she'd get up at four to go do her long runs. And I'd looked at her and I was like, my gosh. But she was going to bed every night at like nine. So she was getting a solid seven to eight hours of sleep every night. And the thing is that.
I think the answer is something that we in Western society are just unwilling to do, and that is go to bed early. And if we would go to bed when we put our kids down, we would get a lot more sleep. But the thing is we don't want to do that because we want our own time. We want that because we're in a society now where we're all working and the only alone time we get with our spouse.
or even to ourselves is after we put our kid down and we put our kid down and then we want that one or two hours that we can do whatever it is that we want to do. And then we'll finally go to sleep and then our kid will wake us up and we haven't had enough sleep. But the reality is, is that if we want to get more sleep, we need to go to sleep when we put our kids down, which means going to sleep at seven or eight. And then when they wake us up at like three or four in the morning, we've actually gotten the reasonable amount of sleep. And.
I don't see people coming around to that idea. certainly, you know, I, I don't know that I would have done it. Well, for, couldn't have because of my, my job, because I often had to work evening shifts and overnights. But if I was working in a steady, like nine to five kind of job, it might be alluring to me to, do that, to go to sleep that early because knowing that if I was up at four, I'd actually would be up and able to do my training and then take care of my kids in the morning and then go to work.
It's something to consider if you're somebody who is sleep poor. We know that one of the best ways to improve your quality of sleep and your quantity of sleep is is all around sleep hygiene. And one of the big things I talk about with sleep hygiene is setting a bedtime and going to bed at that time every night. Well, what if you set that time at like eight o 'clock? Your four year old's probably going to bed. What? Seven thirty eight? Yeah. So what if you went to bed at the same time?
Tyson (48:13.024)
Yeah.
TriDoc (48:16.652)
You might find all of a sudden you're sleeping like a legend a lot more frequently. Now, the problem is, is the world around us is not going to sleep at that time. And there's all kinds of stuff going on that we want to see and do, and our friends are up. And so I get it. But if you ask me what's the one thing that, that we could try to do, that would be it. And if I could go back and like I said, if I had the job that would facilitate it and allow for it, I might try that.
Tyson (48:20.981)
Thank you.
Tyson (48:46.239)
That's a good point. I can tell by the way you answered the question that you really do get it because I'm the exact culprit that you explained. It's like, all right, well, you're working in the day, your kids go to bed. I probably should say hello to my wife, but I also, you know, I want to do whatever it is that I want to do. So I mean, it's once again, a relatively simple answer, isn't it? But you're also right in that, okay, I don't...
I don't want to change those things. Your eyes are always like, all right, we'll just suck it up and stop complaining then, Tice. It's a really good point.
TriDoc (49:18.956)
No, because we want our cake and we want to eat it too. I get it. I totally get it. mean, listen, I been there, done that. And, and, and the idea of getting up at four in the morning is not at all appetizing to me. No more than going to bed at eight. But if I could do that and know that I would get a solid seven to eight hours of sleep every single night, I don't know, might be worth it because I know how good I feel after a good night's sleep.
Tyson (49:21.996)
Thank
TriDoc (49:48.174)
And I know how infrequent those are. Well, what if I told you that, you know, if you did that, you'd get a good night's sleep eight times out of 10. Suddenly that doesn't sound like such a bad deal, right? There's no question. Listen, you got to give a little to get a little. And in this case, you probably have to give a lot, but you might be getting a lot too. So then it becomes a question of risk and reward.
Tyson (50:01.291)
Yeah, take a look.
Tyson (50:13.813)
That's true, that's true. Like how much you actually willing to sacrifice in order to get the results that you claim that you want for what you're training for. That's a really good point.
TriDoc (50:21.678)
Exactly. I will say this though, you know, in the times that I have, like sometimes, sometimes I'm really tired and I go to sleep super early, nine, whatever. And I'll, I'll, I'll just naturally wake up at four, four 30. And then I'm like, you know what? I'm up. So I'll get up, I'll get out of bed. I'll have a coffee and I'll sit down at the computer and man, am I productive. Like I just get so much work done because it's quiet in the house. It's nice. And then I've gotten a bunch of work out of the way.
Tyson (50:43.317)
Hmm.
TriDoc (50:50.99)
Kids get up, I sit down with them while they're having breakfast. They go off to school. get my training done. And by the time it's like nine or 10 o 'clock, I've done a whole day's worth of work. So there's a lot to be said for that strategy. It's just, hard to wrap your head around and it's, it's hard to commit to, but so is everything in endurance sport. It's getting out the door. It's that getting to that first block.
Tyson (51:11.903)
Yeah, that's That's it, great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks, Adam. No, I like it. I mean, these podcasts can go forever. And I mean, I've been doing it now for nearly five years and talking about things just like this. So know there's no shortage of just helpful things that we can apply to get more out of ourselves. But I mean, for the sake of your evening, I've got my eye on the clock. And I thought maybe we could just round it out with like, there's anything that we haven't mentioned that you think is worth mentioning in the same realm of what it is that we've been speaking. I know you mentioned the four
sort of foundational things before, and you're quite clear. on top of that, like, is there anything else that, from your perspective, we overlook that should be focused on more regularly?
TriDoc (52:00.172)
I think more than that. So keep in mind, I do a podcast that basically just answers questions from athletes. I would say probably two thirds of the questions have to do with a product or a supplement or something like that. And people are always looking for ways to, I mean, essentially get a shortcut, not because, not,
So sorry. I'll repeat that. Even though my phone is on, not disturb. It's my sister -in -law. I wonder if her calls go through. All right, I'm going to re -say that. I answer a lot of questions on my podcast that have to do with health and wellness around Triathlon. And I would say that for many of the questions that come through, probably two thirds of them have to do with...
Tyson (52:28.531)
No, man, it's the theme of my life.
TriDoc (52:53.376)
Supplements or some kind of product that's promising some kind of gains gains either in training racing or recovery and We're all as we've talked already several times on this podcast. We're all time poor. We're all sleep poor We're all looking for ways to enhance our ability to train recover and race And if some product is out there promising us a shortcut, we are going to take it The reality i'm very sorry to say
is that in five years of doing my program and reviewing the science behind the claims of well over what almost 200 different products, almost none of them do anything. They're all a waste of money. It's, it's just not worth it. And so at the end of the day, if you're spending time or money on, on, on any of these
very expensive supplements or different electronic devices that promise to make you stronger or more rested. They just don't work. The reality is invest in yourself, invest in your own wellbeing, be it through better nutrition, through better training, through better rest, and you're gonna do significantly better than spending money on any of these things. Now,
There are a few things that we have found that actually have shown benefit and most of them are natural things, natural products. So spirulina is a great example. It's a blue -green algae that's available as a powder supplement. It actually has quite a bit of science that shows that it's actually pretty good for you and it's very good for you health -wise. Beetroot juice, I'm sure you've probably talked about that at some point. Beetroot juice, again, another thing that is very, very healthy and actually confers some benefits. Caffeine, we all know about.
Caffeine seems to be helpful. Sleep, talked about sleep, tapering, tapering and sleep. Those are two things that you don't pay anything for, but if you do them right, they can go a long way towards improving your overall performance. then tart cherry juice, something that I learned about this past year during the Tour de France is actually something that is quite beneficial. So just a handful of things that don't cost a lot of money that do show some promise, but none of them are earth shattering.
TriDoc (55:18.4)
And the reality is, is that if you invest in yourself, then you'll do a lot better.
Tyson (55:24.125)
Yeah, I'm glad I it's funny. I was at our little local organic shop the other day and they just had some bulk spirulina and I thought my wife likes that so I'll get some so now you've said that you've got me excited despite the fact you mentioned it might only be relatively small benefit the tart cherry juice what's the story there?
TriDoc (55:44.088)
So Tarte Cherry Juice was used at the Tour de France every time they finished one of these insane mountain stages. The domestiques, or not the domestiques, the soigneurs would run over to the cyclists and hand them these bottles of like this dark colored liquid that they quickly guzzled down and the internet was replete with all kinds of sleuths trying to figure out what it was that they were drinking. And it turns out they were drinking Tarte Cherry Juice.
Tart cherry juice has a fair amount of science behind it that shows that it's actually quite effective for two reasons. Number one, it contains a huge number of free radical scavengers. So using it after doing a hard workout, it actually does a really good job of helping with recovery. And number two, it is very, very high in melatonin. And so it's been shown to help with sleep. So if you take some before you go to bed at night, like think it's two tablespoons before you go to bed at night.
just mix it into some water, juice, whatever, or you could just take it straight. It actually improves your sleep. So there's another way you could try to improve your sleep. yeah, Tartar Juice, it's sort of a natural anti -inflammatory and it's a natural sleep agent. And it does have a reasonable amount of evidence to show that it does what it says it does.
Tyson (56:47.581)
I'll give it to my kids.
Tyson (57:02.911)
Yeah, awesome, man. Well, for everyone listening, I'll make sure that I have your website, your podcast and whatever else you'd like me to include it in the description to this. But man, we can consider this one of many. You've got an open invite. I'd love to continue the conversation with you in some capacity in the future. So if you're open to that, let's do it. But for now, thanks so much for coming on.
TriDoc (57:25.428)
Absolutely, it was my pleasure and I would definitely look forward to return visit whenever you have time.
Tyson (57:32.032)
I'll cut that off there man. Hey that was a