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Get ready to say “aah”, this one’s a real scream. It’s time to discuss season 1 episode 4 of Dawson's Creek: Discovery, also known as Carnal Knowledge. Don't miss the boat!
A Dawson's Creek Rewatch Podcast for those who missed the boat!
Freaks & Creeks: a Dawson's Creek Podcast dives into each episode of the hit '90s TV show Dawson's Creek with a fresh perspective. Join Cody, Stella, Mal and James as they set sail through turbulent waters determined to understand this iconic teen drama’s place in the modern television zeitgeist.
Welcome to Freaks and Creeks Dawson's Creek Podcast, the show where four millennials who missed about 25 years ago take the dive for the first time. Join us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective week to week um and see if our adolescent experiences match up with Dawson and the gang.
My name is Cody, I'm Stella, I'm Mallory.
And I'm James. And this week we are talking about season one, episode four, Discovery. This episode aired on February 10, 1998 and the synopsis is Dawson turns to Jen for comfort after learning about his mom's affair with her co anchor Softb Bob, as well as Joey's knowledge of it, but he regrets doing so when Jen tells him some of her own problems involving her promiscuity and the real reason her parents forced her to move to Capeside. Meanwhile, Pacey and Tomorrow continue to tempt fate with their affair, which was compromised because Dawson accidentally videotaped it. It's written by Kevin Williamson and John Harmon Feldman and it was directed by Steve Minor and this was quite the episode. What did you all think about it? This watch? How did it treat you, Stella?
Um so I watched it right after the last episode and I was in shock. I couldn't believe a lot of the things that were happening. As we keep saying, they keep doubling down on things. Um it was a fun time. I'm really curious to see how the story is going to continue because I.
Feel like.
A lot of those storylines are um climaxing very quickly. Um so yeah, I'm really curious to see what will continue to happen.
Yeah, it's pretty wild how quickly we are getting the kind of resolution for some of the stuff, or at least what seems like a resolution. Mal, what did you think about this episode?
Yeah, I feel like it was an intense one how Dawson's world is starting to cave in around him, getting a lot of reality checks, and it's kind of nice to see him out of this fantasy world that he's built up for himself. Um also loved Jen's fashion in the episode. I will be mentioning some things on that and the um music was great.
Yeah, I agree. I thought the music was initially as I was noting the music and finding the songs for this, I was like, what is this shit? A lot of it I couldn't place. I didn't know. But after having the episode kicking around in my head and rewatching it a couple of times, the music is actually really good in this episode. It kind uh of really stuck with me. I pulled a couple of little clips that will play later, but um.
Bare.
Naked Ladies getting in on that. I noted that, yeah. Toad the Wets Rocket makes a valiant return as well with another song.
Is that the postgrunge song that happened a couple of times? Yeah, it's like that feedback intro.
I clipped that. So we got some good times coming. But Cody, what was your thoughts on this episode.
Uh yeah, I thought it was much better than the previous episode, which was kind of a train wreck. This seems like in a way a return, but also it seemed like it was paving the way for a uh balance of everything. All of the things that have really stood out to us. I think with hyper stylized dialogue and relationship stuff, it seems like it's all kind of all over the place. But this seemed to strike like a really good balance with all the things that um were kind of too loud. I think in the previous few episodes, obviously the pacey and Miss Jacob stuff sucks shit and we're in um long haul with that, but uh I don't know, whatever. I don't know.
Yes, it really sucks. I feel like we need to do a super cut of every time we've talked about how much this pacey and Miss Jacobs thing sucks because it's probably like 55 plus minutes at this point of us just being like how are they doing this? Why are they doing this? Why are they continuing to do this? And there's no signs of it stopping now. I think this episode initially I was with all of you, I thought it was great. I loved it. When I re watched it, I was left with this just like empty feeling which was really strange. I couldn't care less about it. I was just kind of like, okay.
Yeah, I think I felt a little bit of that too. When I rewatched it, I was like not as excited, right.
Which is weird because it's interesting. I think what I like about this episode is that I feel like we're actually finally getting to see some outcomes, right. We're not just getting more set up. I feel like we've been getting a ton of set up in all of the episodes as far um as characters beginning to kind of establish what their arc is, where we get the first steps towards their arc and in this episode we get a little bit of resolution. So it felt good in the moment, which I think why we all had such a positive first watch. But on the rewatch it just felt very quick and just like surface level and I had a hard time really engaging with more of the episode as uh I watched it later. Sorry, Val is playing with the basketball in the hallway and she's just going wild on that.
All the reasons it seems like that you weren't into it is like why I think I'm attracted to the show more. It's funny because we came into Dawson's Creek having just finished Gilmore Girls, which is like so light and breezy and slice of life. So going into Dawson's Creek I was really hoping for that same vibe, which it hasn't been at all. But in this episode there are a couple of moments where it's very breezy and like, oh we're just hanging out and I'm like, yes, um give me that except for some drama that unfolds for 1 minute. I just thought that Joey uh and Dawson were going shopping for an investigator. And I was like, yes, I want a full episode of just that. I don't need the drama.
Totally. I like that we're getting a new location. We got the store. We haven't really been there yet.
The uh news station, the new station, like the park.
It feels like we're building out more information more about.
Yeah, I uh liked the shots of uh just like the town or the main street. It looks really cute.
I don't know.
It was fun to see some of those just like, oh, this is what the main street looks like.
Yes. It seems like really well, it seemed lived in. Like there were people around, like a coastal town. That totally.
Maybe you want to go there.
Yeah, totally.
It no longer feels like a town of 20. I think after seeing this episode, like, it actually um feels uh like there are people who live here. There are people who have lives and jobs outside of Ms. Jacob's and Dawson's mom, basically, who are the only people who seem to have anything to do.
Also, something with this episode that finally clicked with me is not in a good way, but Dawson has this cutesy kind of like I'm a manchild. Kind of like, oh, I didn't really know that. He's a little baby man when it comes to sex and relationship stuff. And it's really creeped me out this entire time. And I finally realized what he's trying to do. And it reminded me of Ethan Embry uh in the greatest 90s Teen Movie. Can't uh hardly Wait because he's like a really similar character where he doesn't know anything about relationships, but he's, like, projecting all this, like, I'm in love, I'm in love, and I'm in love, and Ethan Embry slayed that character. He did a really good job of being that kind of adolescent love cutesy. Like, I'm a romantic weirdo. Whereas whenever James Vander Beak does it, it makes my skin crawl.
I got to say, like, we had.
The biggest crush on Ethan Embry in that movie, and I could not be less attractive uh to James VanderBeek.
Yeah, sorry. James Van Der Beek. Love you.
You're a nice guy. He seems like a great guy. But I totally agree. This episode. There's specifically the scene outside of Jen's grandma's house when soon we'll be getting into our scene by scene. But uh when that scene happens, Dawson is disgusting to me. The way that he's talking, he's like, oh, okay, well, I take it we're not alone then.
It's just like, this is so gross.
And he's got his eyebrows up and his lips pursed and he's just got this, like, there's no other way to describe it. Besides, then the director probably was like, hey, pretend you're 13. Yeah, it's just like that youthful look on his face, but he doesn't pull it off, and it just comes across as uh creepy to me. It just feels really creepy and weird. So yeah, um I haven't seen I can't hardly wait. Maybe I'll have to watch, but I definitely don't know.
It's been a while since I've watched it.
Oh, man.
Yeah. The uh 90s vibes that we wanted from this is turned up to Eleven with anybody.
It's so perfect.
It's just like the most 90s high school party movie. It's just like. Yes. Feels very nostalgic.
Yeah.
They basically take the concept of every teen movie. The best scene is always the party. So let's make an entire movie of just the party and cut the fat and rules.
That's fun. Yeah. I mean, maybe we need to do a side episode where we watch that and start getting into some 90s films because I definitely um want more. This episode did introduce more slice of life stuff. It is doing more world building, which is, I think, something that I really want. But it also just makes me hungry for more 90s media content. And I think I'm starting to battle with this idea that we came into Dawson's Creek with next to no knowledge about what this is. Aside from the crying James Van Der Beek meme. That's kind of what we had. Plus, at least speaking for myself, that plus the title credits. So uh um I'm starting to learn this is a lot less 90s referential intentionally. So then it is nostalgic for the 90s because it was one of the biggest shows of the 90s. I'm not getting this uh feeling of like, they're really trying to set this in the 90s. Right.
There's like a level of timelessness to how things are going. They're happy in the 90s.
It could be the 60s. It could be the 2000s because they're kind of agnostic of culture. It's in a time bubble. Yes.
The only thing that ever really comes across as super ninety s to me is the fashion, obviously. But also when they do the super stylistic dialogue, because that kind of sounds like Buffy or any other shows from that time period.
Yeah. Yeah. Mhm it's a time capsule by proxy of being a show made in the 90s. It feels like they were intentionally trying to not make it feel like the.
Want an episode where they go to a smash Mouth concert.
But we almost got that with the bare naked ladies.
Yeah. For real. Also wanted to point out, like, I hadn't noticed uh this yet, but during the end credits, it said that Mike White was a creative consultant on the show.
Wow.
And yeah, he's known uh for being the showrunner of HBO, White, Lotus and Enlightened. He also wrote School of Rock, and he was also one of my favorite contestants on season 37 of Survivor, David vs. Goliath.
But super cool.
And I looked like looking at his writing career, like 98 is pretty much where he got to start. He also wrote another movie that came out that year, too. But yeah, um I would love to know more about Mike White being in that writers room. That doesn't really feel like something that he would write.
Wait, did you see if uh he.
Has been on multiple, like, wrote on multiple episodes of Dawson?
He gets the writing credit for uh four or five episodes, I think.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
And it's like season one and season two. And he probably left after that because he became really big. Well, I don't want to wait for our life to be over to get into it.
Let's go ahead and get started then, Cody.
All right, so we open on Dawson and Joey watching back footage from what I assume is either Dawson's not great horror movie or his Peeping Tom coverage of Jen. This opens the floodgates uh to Joey riff on Jen's looks and predict her entire lifetime of privilege. And while Dawson is swapping out some tapes, they land on a tape of Pacey and Miss Jacob's having sex, which is how we finished the last episode. And it's important to note that Dawson here also drops the tidbit that his parents 20th wedding anniversary is right around the corner.
So the footage that they are watching of Jen is the exact same footage of her. Hey, pretty girl entry in episode one. I checked. How meta is that?
That's incredible.
Yeah. They're watching a scene from Dawson's Creek.
Well, I love it when shit happens uh like that where they're just recycling their own footage to be a clip.
Man, that's crazy. That's crazy. I didn't catch that at all. But you're right, because I don't remember them shooting any hair flippings. Yeah.
The cab is in the back and she's wearing the exact same outfit. It's the same lighting, the same time of day. Great catch.
Wow. I love that.
Um yeah. Some of my first thoughts were, like, wondering why. I mean, we know why, like, Joey is jealous of Jen.
But I was like, why is Joey.
Still hating so much on Jen? I feel like they've had quite a few positive interactions where Jen has been very kind and generous to Joey, and Joey seems to see that and appreciate it in the moment.
Joe Jose in love with Dawson, um though. No, I know.
That's what I'm saying. Yes, we know that she's jealous, but it just seems like, okay, clearly she's trying to be friends with you.
Yeah, I know.
That was the note that I took as well. I was just like, why is she so mean? Here she is being ruthless for Jen, who we have seen be positive. They've um been nice to each other. And Jen, I think, has more often than not extended the olive branch to Joey, who, as you're saying, has reciprocated. She's accepted that and been nice back. So it just felt really out of place. Maybe they forgot um that they shot those themes or they shot this before they added those kinds of olive branch scenes in for those previous episodes.
I think it speaks to the time of when the show was airing because we weren't really that used to the serialized format of television. So I think that with their show Bible, maybe a note was like, Joey is always kind of like having a TIFF with Jen because Joey loves Dawson. And maybe they're just like, oh, I guess we have to keep that established for all of the people that are tuning in every other episode, right? Maybe. I mean, that's my guess, because it is. I mean, you're right. Like, we've already gotten numerous scenes where it seems like they're kind of like creating a friendship.
Totally.
Yeah. It just feels very. I mean, you're probably right. I bet the show Bible says that Joey's first instinct is to always distrust and downplay Jen, and that's what she's done consistently. Every opportunity. Her first instinct is always to be especially she's alone to shoot her down and make her seem kind of basic, basically.
Maybe it's more it's just her way of expressing her annoyance at Dawson, but she's like, using uh Jen as the. I don't know.
She's very jealous. I think it really underscores the jealousy aspect of this relationship. I clipped something here um for the transition into the opening credits, and I love this episode. I think introduced something that I really appreciated, which is very strange music cues that are not like, you won't. I don't know what song this is. I have no fucking idea. I have no way of finding out what song this is, but they use like a five second clip of it. So here's this music cue. I'm going to play it here. It's just somebody saying, yeah, very for a long time. And I love uh it.
Is this during the Zoom in?
Yeah. After they're reviewing this sex tape and they realize it's Miss Jacobs and that is the climax sound. They haven't done this yet. And this show just used a strange music queue like that. Every music queue so far has basically been like a needle drop. We're dropping right into the chorus of the song. We're dropping right into the most memorable part of these songs, and instead we get that, which is uh very atmospheric. It was cool. I liked it.
It's the first of many in this episode.
Definitely.
Very interesting shift.
Yes.
That Zoom on Ms. Jacobs really was.
Just a little too much like.
It was like, let's get closer and closer. Her facial expression was just like, okay.
I know I'm a one trick pony. And I bring up David Lynch in Twin Peaks probably every episode, but it reminded me of the footage of Laura Palmer dancing at the picnic. I was like, wow, they're really zooming in on this. It's pretty scary.
Yeah. I had a question, which was, why are they zooming in on this? I couldn't tell if it was the camera zooming in on it or if it was our camera zooming in on it because then they just set the camera up stationary. So why are we getting a slow Zoom on it?
Our camera.
Okay. It uh didn't translate to me. I was also probably just so taken aback by what was happening in that moment.
It's the audience POV. We're getting sucked into the world of drama.
Cody, I wanted to ask you, uh did you notice his little editing deck that he was working on when he was on his bed?
No, I didn't actually.
Oh, man. It was so cool. I was trying to figure out what it was. So for the listeners, he had a double VHS set up. As I'm presuming, he's playing uh the footage from his dailies and then bouncing it to another VHS recorder that he's compiling down. So he's got two VHS tapes on top of his TV that he's watching on the bed. And then on his lap, he's got this super cool little editing deck. It's got a wheel and a stylus and a couple of buttons. And he's controlling the playback from this. And I know it's the 90s, but it was so cool looking. I wanted it. I wanted it so bad. If anybody knows what that is, please write it in Dallas, because I'm going to buy one and just pretend it.
Does something rip the analog age.
Right?
That stuff. It's so cool.
It was so cool.
Dawson, like, this episode continues my love for Dawson. Stuff that makes me wish. Like, if I was a little kid and I watched this, I'd be like, Dawson is so cool. We talked about a street sign that like Dawson Street or whatever. And then this analog editing tool that he has. But also later, he has a hollowed out book for to hide mysterious stuff. And little kid me always wanted that.
So cool. Put my troll dolls in there.
Yes, it has a cool boat. Bookshelf.
I don't know if anyone has noticed that yet.
It's like half a canoe upside down. And it's bookshelf.
Yeah.
They really have to lean into it if they're in Capeside, right.
Of course. Exactly. Got to reinforce that water connection. Well, with us, we go into the opening credits here. We get our fourth introduction to I Don't Want to Wait. And it's just beautiful. It gets better every single time. Yeah.
I don't think I'll ever hit the skip intro button.
No, I almost did this.
I just like watching them have fun. Yes.
At first I want to skip it. And then I was just, like, watching them have fun. And I did appreciate it. And I was like, this is sweet.
I guess I feel like I noticed something new this time. I noticed there's a shot of Dawson, Joey and Pacey just. Uh i don't know what they're doing in a row, going side to side. And both Dawson and Tasty look like they're just kind of, like jerking from side to side. And then Joey is in between them, like kind of dancing eventually. It's really weird. It's just like the most confusing thing to me. And I noticed that this time for the first time, I was like, what's happening? What are we seeing?
Yes.
I want to know what the directions were for them.
I almost feel like they just walked around with a camera and we're like, yes, just play.
But it's also, like, the most like, they seem so happy and I feel like we don't really see them.
That happy hour.
Are they effortless happy?
Yeah. I think that's like how I said earlier I wanted this to be a slice of life show. I think it's because the only thing I knew about the show also was the intro credits. So in my mind, I'm like, man, all they do is just have a.
Good time on both, if only.
All right. So we come back and the gang is eating at the Ice House discussing Ms. Jacobs'sex tape. And while Pacey is completely losing it out of fear of being caught, Dawson confirms that no one can tell who the guy is in the tape, but Pacey begs to see it.
I don't have much to say about this. I did notice um the continued uh teasing dialogue between Pacey and Joey, and.
They called each other pervert improved.
Um yeah. Yeah. I felt like this is where I'm locking in my vote that Joey and Pacey eventually have either a fling, if not a full on boyfriend girlfriend, high school relationship, because this is where we see Joey is like, I don't know. Did you guys think that when Dawson and Joey are talking about this sex tape, they look very excited about it?
Absolutely.
Joey looks very excited about this mystery man figure with the bulging neck muscles and the Brown hair. She's like, essentially she finds that person attractive.
Yeah.
I would have probably said this would be by season two, but we've been so off on all of our predictions. It's going to be next episode making out.
Yeah, I wonder something.
Yeah, I definitely agree. I feel like it's going to happen soon. And I just wonder, like, how I'm excited to see how it happens because is it just going to hit her like a ton of bricks? How will they see that?
Well, she's going to realize the boy in the tape.
Do you think more people will find out?
Yeah, the beans will be sold.
Especially now that he takes the tape with him later on. The tape is out of its safe.
Holding uh and she'll be like, oh, my God, that was him the whole time. It's like the Seinfeld. Elaine leaves the sexy voicemail on Jerry's uh machine, and George is like, who is this sexy woman? And then when he finds out it's Elaine, he's like, Am I in love with the Lane?
That's what's going to happen. What I found interesting was we had the heightened sexual dialogue, but in this situation, it wasn't one of the boys doing it. It wasn't Pacey and Dawson as it normally is generally Pacey. It was Joey ramping it up in sexualization by accusing Pacey of only wanting to watch this tape to flog the Bishop in Privacy.
Yeah.
Nobody is innocent in this show being a disgusting fucking pervert.
I just feel bad for Joy that they all hang out at her place of work, right?
Yeah.
This is how, like two opposites in a row. They're hanging out at the Ice house.
And, you know, they're asking for free sodas mhm and some fries and all that shit.
Yeah. I hope that she gets some kind of something out of it.
All right.
So after that, Dawson walks Jen home um and he clearly wants to lay a big fat smooch on her, but she's a little hesitant, especially considering Graham staring at them through the window. Jen says that they should hold off since it's all about building anticipation of when uh they're finally going to have their next make out session, but says, screw it and go for it.
This is the first time we see them holding hands.
Oh, that's nice.
Yeah.
This episode, we really ramp up. They have been on a steady course. Last episode, uh they really ramped up their flirtation in a way that felt strange to me, frankly, from like, they have this kind of buddy buddy flirtatious relationship in episode two. Episode three is very hot and heavy flirtation. And then in this one, they're holding hands and like, PDA is a thing. So, yeah, we've got a pretty defined curve here. And I predict that we're going to see a downward spiral start pretty soon here, especially with what we see with the rest of this episode.
I guess you're right. There's a lot of normalization of relationships in general in this also with Pacey and tomorrow, um even though that's a fucking disgusting plot point, their relationship is played out. Uh there's just another couple I want.
To first call out on Jen's outfits. Yeah, very 90s minimalism.
Cool.
She has that monochromatic short dress. Yeah, it's a mini skirt. I think it was like plumb and black Plaid. And then she has a mock neck, like, plum plum color top and then, like, platform sandals.
Very cool.
Killing it this episode.
Yeah, I'm with Graham, so it's disgusting.
Why do they wait until just then to make out too? And they're like a foot away from the house. I can see Graham staring right at them on purpose.
This is what we kind of talked about before. This is where Dawson breaks out the baby talk.
Got it.
Just like, weird. He also has the weirdest brag ever here where he is talking about Pacey and he's like, Pacey's all bark and no bite. Basically. He talks about sex a lot, but he's actually never done it. He's harmless, basically. And then Jen says, I've noticed that the people who talk about it are the worst at it or something. He's like, Well, I never talk about it at all. And he's got this. He's so proud of himself. Aren't I a good guy? Uh no, actually, you're just as disgusting as he is. You are more like holier than thou about it.
I've put a lot of incel slack on Pacey, obviously, from the few episodes that we've gotten of him, because he's gross. But a lot of that nice guy info shit is coming from Dawson, too. It's like I'm just a cute little baby. Why won't you give me this much smooch? Yeah, you're not Ethan Embry, dude. No, it's not working for me. All right, so Graham is waiting in the kitchen to give Jenna hey, you're moving way too fast speech, but Jen isn't uh having it. Jen insists it's only a kiss, and Graham repeats that it was only a kiss. And for a second, I thought that they were going to go and do a singalong to Mr. Brightside.
Yeah, it felt like if this was made in 2006, we would have gotten the killer's needle drop right then and there, and we would have transitioned to, like, an emo high school scene.
So the moment when Jen opens the fridge and takes out the milk or is a glass of milk for herself. I rarely drink milk, but whenever I see that in a show, I think of, like, the Got Milk ads. So I did a little research.
Oh, no.
And there was a Got Milk ad in 1998 with Pacey, um not Joshua Jackson. Pacey. And I have to read the quote. Oh, my God. So he's sitting in a boat and it reads, quote. I can't help it. Women of all ages look up to me. Why? I'm six foot two, thinks in part to milk. The calcium helps bones grow strong, considering 15% of your adult height is added when you're a teenager. That's good to know. Especially if you want to impress, let's say, older women. Stop it right now.
Wait, did you watch a clip of this?
No, it's a print. Yeah, I have a picture of it.
Um wow.
That is amazing.
It's funny because do uh any of you remember those Got Milk ads? Sexy. They were so often, like, people just pouring milk on themselves.
Yeah, I remember, like, a lot of cleavage.
Yeah.
Really? Okay. I don't remember any of that. I just remember.
Well, you weren't a nine year old boy watching those commercials or seeing those print ads. Like, wow, that is the best piece of information.
Uh i just Googled it.
Milk.
I thought milk. And she doesn't drink it in the scene? No, she pours it, and she is holding it while she's kind of talking to Graham.
Um did you Google Got Milk? Dawson's Creek?
Yeah, Google Got Milk ad, Dawson's Creek. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay.
I was shocked at the size of the glass of milk that she poured. That was all I wanted to get. I don't know.
The last time I drank a full glass of milk, probably when I was in high school.
Anyway, this podcast brought to you by Big Milk.
Milk?
Yeah, big Milk.
I think there's some numerology going on here in uh Graham's house. I couldn't quite crack the code here. But if you notice, in the beginning when Jen walks in, there are seven rolling pins on the wall. She has a rack of seven. Then behind the backsplash, uh where the stove is, on the back wall, there are five potholders each, different decorative pothole holders. On the other side of the stove top, there's at least two, but I think there's more than that. Decorative plates, like commemorative plates up above the covers, on the top, there's, like four or uh five different decorative pots.
Is all I can say.
So there's some numerology going on here. I am starting to concoct a theory that I will share with you later because it comes full circle. But just know this now. They have some advanced like it's like that Nic Cage movie about what was that knowing? No. Um well, maybe uh that one, but about the treasure Hunt on the back of the cottage. Treasure. It's like national treasure.
All right.
There's a tie in here to some cryptozoological stuff that I just can't wait to really crack.
Maybe it's like the lost hours. Uh that's how you get into the hatch.
And I believe it.
Who knows where this show is going? Yeah. So over at the Leary household, Dawson's parents, Mitch and Gail, also established the pilot as Mr. And Mrs. Manmade are in a heated conversation about Mitch's facial hair scarring. Mrs. Manmeet has apparently never noticed a big old gash in his chin. And Mr. Manmade thinks that this is absolutely nuts since he considers it grotesque and extremely visible. Dawson pops into the frame and recognizes the scar and remembers the moped accident that caused it from ten years ago and dips to his room after the man meets start making out.
Obviously, love affairs are complex. People cheat for different reasons. But I noticed in this episode and in other episodes that, like, Dawson's mom still seems to really love Dawson's dad. They don't seem to have a lack of passion. The way that they kissed was seemed very passionate. They're always, like, very affectionate.
They haven't shown conflict. Yeah.
Um and they just seem happy. Right.
She's a sex addict.
Maybe that's part of it. Who knows?
When I was watching them, it was just like, um I want to know why she's having this affair. Like, what is going on?
The one thing that kind of popped out the line was when Mr. Leary mentions her working late often, that was kind of like the it seems like maybe he deep down he knows something's up, but he doesn't want to come to terms with that.
Yeah. This scene was interesting to me initially. I was disgusted by it because it's just like, hey, remember when you ask for kissing lessons, son? Watch this shit. I'm going to make my fucking lip dance all over your mom's face right now. But after my rewatch, I started to kind of think about this scene a little bit more. And his dad, Mr. Manmy, seems like he's onto something here. He's like, Maybe you should come home and see my face in the light sometime. I think he does deep down send something. And I think that their weird, incredibly physical relationship is because he is trying to keep her here.
Yeah, that's a good read, because later, when we see Soft Beat Bob God, I don't remember the numbers, but Dawson uh says on at six and eleven or something like that. And it's like, if they're co anchors, that means that she's on at 11:00 at night, too. So if Mr. Leary is working a nine to five or whatever, he never sees uh his wife.
Yeah.
Do we know if Dawson's dad has a job, or is he just like.
Yeah, he's an eccentric entrepreneur.
If this show is made now, he'd be really in a crypto.
Yes.
He's going to make the Ice House go out of business.
Anyone um else in? Gail? Looks like she was wearing a towel.
Yeah.
I couldn't figure out that red silk pajamas felt very sexy for just, like, lying around the house.
It was kind of like a lounge dress.
Yeah. And then she grabs Mr. Manmade's shirt and rips him in for a kiss. I could have done without all of it.
I loved every second of it.
I know you do.
Also, just one note. Just more datasounding dialogue coming from Dawson. Uh just went to this line is like the scar you got from the Moped accident uh ten years ago. Yeah. Okay, Mr. Robot.
I know the exact date and time. Also, we can't see the scar.
He's like, I wish we could have.
Had a little, you know, the way.
That you're talking about it. I was like, what scar?
Yeah.
So up in Dawson's room, Pacey is rummaging through all of Dawson's tapes in search of the Miss Jacob sex tape. Dawson's rightfully freaked out because he's just now realizing that Pacey is a sex possessed, pervert, and handsome the tape. But here Pacey finally reveals to him that he's the one uh from the tape and that he's been having an extremely inappropriate sexual relationship with Tamara Jacobs. In an extremely in character moment for Paisy, he asked Dawson if he looked good. Humping Miss Jacobs like McGruber.
Now, I captured that audio clip, and I would like to play it now just for us, for our listening pleasure. Everybody out there um get prepared for Hassie confessing his sexual exploits being caught on tape.
It's all been building to this. I'm not cursed with self awareness like you are. It's awesome, but I know enough to know how people see me. I'm not the guy who gets the girl, the guy who talks about getting the girl, but not the guy who gets her. Enough people say that stuff about you and you start to believe it yourself.
I'm not quite following you here, Pacey.
I got the girl this time, Dawson.
Yeah.
Call it the law of averages. Call it an act of God. Call it whatever you want, but I got it.
Who'd you get, Pacey?
You know what, Hunter?
I don't know how to tell you.
This, but um the guy with the Brown hair and the throbbing neck muscles, the guy with Tamara Jacobs.
That'S me. No.
Yeah.
I'm uh not just talking this time.
Dawson, though I wish I was, because off the top of my head, I can think of about 40 reasons why this tape could ruin my life.
Not the least of which is the embarrassment factor. I mean, nobody's first time should be captured on video.
Crazy.
But um what a friendship they have. I thought you're going to get to.
The tender moment of asking, am I good at?
Oh, I have that, too. We'll get there.
I think there's a couple of times in this episode where we kind of see, like, a little bit more of a sensitive side of Pacey. I noticed that in this scene, and we hear him say that it's not just about the sex, that he actually really likes her, which is also interesting.
I kind of agree. I think it's an interesting little shift that we're getting in his character here. Little color being brought into Pacey's life.
He's putting quite a lot of trust in Dawson as well here telling him this. Uh he's like, I'm going to take this tape so no one else sees it, but I'm going to tell you.
Yeah.
They're being real friends. Kind of. Totally.
Yeah. I don't think we've had a lot of moments like this where they actually are interacting as more like friends.
Yeah, we got a few moments of that this episode.
I want to know if anyone else felt like Dawson's reaction was weird.
Yes. Mhm.
I don't think there exists a word to describe my.
Yeah, that was the most convoluted thing to say. And then he's also just like, oh, it was like the Dark Crystal, and Casey is talking to a sketchy. Weird.
How would you react at that age if a friend told you I was.
Going to ask that?
Also, what would you do? What would you do? Anyone?
I don't even want to think. A word does not exist to properly describe my reaction.
Yeah. I don't know.
Like one of your best friends told you that they had an affair with the teacher at your school?
Man, I wouldn't believe them. But then if I saw if I had the video evidence for it and I was watching that and they said, that's me.
That's heavy, dude.
I'd be in shock because I think he is shocked because he says he can't describe it. He's basically saying, I'm speechless.
Yeah. I'm going to say maybe what we're not like, maybe it's just not great acting of him being be in shock. It doesn't really come across as that. But he is kind of, like, speechless, right?
Yeah, it's overwrought. Basically. If he was just like, I don't know what to say, that would have probably better landed the fact that he is stunned here versus words do not exist. To properly describe my reaction, Mr. Data.
The conceit of the podcast in the shows uh do these things match up with our adolescent experiences. And I'm quick to be very critical of Dawson and how he reacts, especially here, too. But then I think if I was 15 and my friend told me this, I would make a joke, I would brush it off, and I'd be like, wow, I can't even think of, like, what to say right now. Ha ha. Was it good?
Yeah.
Cool, dude. Because I to this day build a lot of barriers uh to ever get to real feelings, and that's why I'm in therapy. But I think it makes sense for Dawson just to be like, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like his stupid little lingo and his thing. He's a 15 year old boy.
He's not equipped.
Yeah, he's not going to know how to handle this. He's totally in shock and it totally uh goes in line with his problems with control. He's a very controlling person. And everyone brings up like, oh, this isn't a script. This is real life. People have to reiterate to him that constantly. And so if something is ever going off script for him, his brain just fizzles out, right?
Yeah.
Okay. Well, without further Ado, Here's, Pacey asking for his feedback on his sex.
It's going to sound a little strange, but on the tape.
Did I look alright.
Performance wise? Did I cut it, man?
Yeah, you did fine, man. From what I could tell, did fine. Cool, man. Thanks.
Anybody in.
So Peacey assumes that he watched the entire taste like asking him this. Oh, my God. Hey, uh Mr. Mammy, can you come.
In here real quick?
Why don't you practice on this doll?
Here, let me see your technique here. This is where. Did anybody else notice a little bit of homeowner autistic between the way that.
He kind of gave uh him an up and down look? Like, if you're watching Dawson's eyes in that last line, he kind of gives him a way he probably didn't see all of it in this moment. It's kind of like he's trying to make Pacey feel good about like, maybe he didn't see it, all of it, but he said, yeah, you're fine. Don't worry about it.
The back and forth between the two of them is like, yeah, man, you did great. Yeah, thanks, man. Yeah, man. Of course, man. All right, man. Well, thanks for the sex feedback, man.
Please don't tell me what.
Yeah, I'm going to take this with me.
That tape is going to leak everywhere.
Uh oh, yeah.
In Paisy's hands.
Yeah, he's going to bring it. Okay, let's put down some guesses. How do we think this tape is going to come back to bite Pacey and Miss Jacobs in the ass?
What if uh there's some kind of.
Like, mix up with the tape? Like someone thinks that something like, I don't know, maybe there's not a label on it and someone thinks it's something else, right?
Maybe end up in school somehow.
Maybe one of his sisters sees it.
To the film festival. I got dancing feed.
Or he's going to volunteer to edit some Helmets of Glory footage. And it's going to get mixed up there because we did see Pacey going through all the dailies, right? So he's got his tapes are all mixed up now. He doesn't know where everything is. There's going to be a time crunch. And he's going to slip that in and edit in sex scene footage.
I can't wait.
Interesting. Well, it is at this point that we're going to take our first commercial break of the day. So please enjoy these messages.
And we're back. So we come back to the show and we get a great establishing shot of Capeside like we talked about earlier. Love that. Please, more. And we land on Joey and Dawson heading into a Ma and pop Pottery Barn to look for a gift for Dawson's parents 20th wedding anniversary. While Dawson is talking about how jealousy is of his parents sex lives. They run into Gale Man meet and her co news anchor, Bob, whom she's having an uh affair with. Uh joey eyesem with disdain, having known for a few episodes now of The Affair. And Dawson is just as happy as a clam to meet Mr. Bob.
This is where we get the Bare Naked Ladies.
Yes, I know. By the Bare Naked Ladies.
I know they had any songs other than it's been. No, I know if I had a.
Million dollars before that album, I can't remember what I was very into the Barn Naked Ladies when I was a kid, like, my dad and I spent a lot of time together. And I think a lot of my love for music came from us spending time together. And one of the bands we listen to a lot was Bear Naked Ladies.
That's cute.
And just like recently, actually, I was going through their discography and was like, oh, my God, I forgot uh about all these songs. But they had a lot of bangers. I did not recognize that song, though. I just couldn't hear. They recognized their voices.
Have you seen them live?
I don't think I ever did.
I saw them at the Zoo. It was so much fun. Yeah, they're hilarious.
Did they play it's Been?
I don't think they did.
Yeah.
I feel like Stella. I also listen to Bare Naked Ladies a lot. With my dad. There were, like, three bands that it will forever associate with my dad. It's Bare Naked Ladies. And then it is Cake. Oh, my God, cake. My dad listened to so much cake. And then the last band is Billy Joel. Oh, my God, the Piano Man record just always on.
We didn't start the fire.
My parents loved Billy Joel.
Yes.
Actually, four talking heads. Also the talking heads obsessed with the talking heads. So anytime there's one of those music cues, it's like, Daddy, where are you.
Papa?
Yeah. I don't really have a lot to say about this scene. I thought it was weird that this whole show started with Dawson asking Joey if she thinks that they're having an affair. And it felt like the show forgot about that when they got to the scene. Because Dawson is like, what are they doing here? And they're not really having, like, a super obvious affair moment. But it is like, it's more like.
That would be something that a costume Department would handle for at the news station. Right. Like for an anchor if they're dressing an anchor, presumably. Yeah. That cover was just ridiculous. Also, the nerve of soft be Bob to tell Dawson that he would love to watch his film.
Oh, yeah, it was uh huge.
I hear you.
Yeah.
I'm trying to buy your affection, bud. Do you want to go play catch in the backyard?
Dawson would go, yes.
And then it works because afterwards Dawson's like, you know, at first I thought he was a total tool, but now I think he's not so bad.
Yeah, I love that. I love Joey's. Real thrilling.
She's, as usual, complete. She is easy to read. Her emotions are written on her face here, and she is looking really furious. She's incredibly unimpressed.
And Dawson doesn't pick up on it at all.
I feel like this is the second or third episode in a row where people mentioned that Dawson is a really perceptive person.
Right? Yeah.
Uh he doesn't know anything that's going on.
Well, he's been preoccupied.
True.
He's thinking about Jim, but.
So why is Dawson jealous of his parents sex life?
Good question. But he also complains about it, like, about how gross it is when he sees them kiss. Yet he's jealous.
Yes. I didn't understand.
Are you guys jealous of parents sex life?
My parents divorced when I was young, so I didn't really ever have those memories of, like, my parents being affectionate together. So I cannot tell you. But I can't imagine looking at my parents and being like, Man, I wish I got to kiss somebody like that.
I mean, there was a mention of the Oedipus story.
Totally. Yeah.
One thing I really liked. Uh i mean, Joey is still my favorite character. I love Jojo. And when they were going into the shop, uh I loved her line when she said, Your parents are middle aged, white, suburbanites. They live for folks.
Yet again. She is just spot on, extremely on point. She is the most observant person in the entire show.
Definitely.
Her eyes are wide open.
Yes.
She sees everything except for herself.
Yeah, it was just fun. To see them shop. It made me want to go to the coast and go to a gift.
Shop and look at looks like a Macy's or something.
Clothing departments with the clothing and other room kind of looked like a combo.
I honestly couldn't tell you what half of those things were in that building.
I don't know.
A lot of things were hanging from the ceiling.
I think there were some wind chimes.
Yeah.
Everybody needs one of those.
So back at Graham's place, Jen is about to head out to hang out with Dawson, and Graham is being super judgmental. Jen uh exposition info dumps that she's interested in Dawson and that Joey and Dawson are just friends. Uh and Graham's comes off again is just super judgemental and she's a big old meanie. Uh before Jen finally dips, the scene.
Kind of made me wonder, did Graham make these mistakes as a young woman? And she's trying to prevent Jen Jen from doing the same thing, from making the same mistakes. Maybe that's what led her to become religious.
Or she looks like a born um again Christian. Had a crazy time in the 19th ten.
Yeah, she seems very protective over Jenn.
Uh all we really find out in this episode is that Jen has been sexually active and it's like, okay, but was there actually any real trouble?
She had an abortion or was she? I don't know.
It just was like, okay, so what? She's having sex.
This was the late 90s where it's like, if you're having sex out just as bad as and how old are they?
15 here. So she's talking like 13.
That's true.
1213 like the movie kids, right?
Yeah, I would love to see the.
Movie Kids, but with this cast also.
I feel like when Graham speaks, I feel like I'm watching an old movie. She's like in a different universe.
Um when she are doing this today.
She has, like, that mid Atlantic accent. I also feel like when they shot Graham the scenes this episode, they could only get her for like an hour because she's sitting in the exact same chair than she is in a different place. Okay, quick wardrobe change.
Yeah, one location. We're going to get you in front, in the window. Look through the curtains.
Great.
Okay, cool. Now sit down. Jen, get in here quick.
Okay.
Have a quick conversation. Great. Now talk about being disappointed. Okay, bye.
Thanks. Great.
Get to the door. You got to get to the door. Cool. So Ms. Jacobs is sitting outside a cafe that is conveniently right across the street from Screenplay Video, where Pacey works. He runs across the street to greet her, and they way too casually hang out in broad daylight as though it's completely normal. She's planning the reading curriculum, and Pacey pushes her to choose some literature with more sex positive readings. Since most of the books they read make a negative theme, Pacey says some people sleep together and everything works out fine? She asks. You think that's possible? And they touch hands again in broad daylight before she realizes, oh, yeah, it's broad daylight.
How does he not understand that he can't be holding hands with her in public again? Yeah, and she's cool with that for.
Like, a second, too.
Also, this is a surprise, she says as she's sitting literally directly across from his mhm place of work, where she.
Meets him, where she knows when he works, interact with what she had with him.
You're surprised that Pacey saw you sitting outside across the street?
I was just here to rent this explicit sex video. And you work here? Oh, Geez, golly, gosh, I forgot about that.
Well, back at Dawson's, he's showing Jen some footage from his monster movie. To review her performance, he invites her to his mom's station uh to record dubbing over the parts at his mom's work. He's surprised that she's down and flirts with the only way he knows how by referencing movies and they start to kiss. But she stops him before things get heated, and he's thankfully fine with that.
This is yucky. I didn't like this when he goes up to Jen and says, Back in the old days, when they were filming a scene, uh the sensors would always make one of them keep their foot on the ground. But I always thought that was weird because you can get a lot done with it's, just like you can get.
Away with anything or whatever.
Do you not remember two episodes ago when you tried to kiss her and she was like, no, we need to pump the brakes. And you're like, hey, we could fuck with our foot on the ground. Do you know that you can see my doodle right now if you wanted to? Do you want to see my doodle?
It's just like, Dude, oh man, what.
Is going on here, man?
Ethan Embry would have been so much better with that kind of dialogue. Is just such a creep.
So creepy.
Also, this is when Jen says she doesn't like her quote pathetic shriek, which I actually thought that shriek was fine. The actual shriek?
Oh, much better than the dubbed.
Yeah, here it comes. You guys ready? One, two.
That's a great solid.
Yeah. Evil Dead.
Yeah, I thought Pacey's scream was pretty funny. Listen to this again. Listen to the initial scream from Pacey. Sounds like the.
What's the name of the guy that used to do the introductions on SNL vanilla? Oh, that's what he sounds like.
Uh.
Uh Yeah, I got that, too. Don't worry.
I also uh feel super validated in this scene because I've complained the last few episodes that no one's running sound on Dawson's movie. And now we found out that he's dubbing all of the sound in the studio for the entire thing. Like it's an Italian neorealism movie from the 40s. Smash cut two, Jen is in the Wkwb station sound booth recording her screams for the monster movie. Dawson and a sound producer in the booth, and the producer, very unnaturally, asks if Dawson has seen his mom that day. Jen tries to hit her Mark, but misses, so they decided to take a break. Yeah.
You guys want to hear that?
Yeah.
Okay, here we go.
One more time for the people in the back.
All right, that was great. Listen to Dawson in the background, who was like, okay, he's having some serious second thoughts here. All right. That was great. It's so good. So I clipped that out. Now I have just that scream. Anytime we need this.
I'm going to.
Make that my text message notification.
I'm trying to figure out where that type of screen would be appropriate.
What was she thinking?
It's so much worse than the original screen.
I love it.
One more time.
Can I just hear one more time? Oh, good for the road.
And here's the original I would love to hear. Okay, my mission is to while I edit this, I'll place it in just in a moment here, but I'm going to stitch Pacey's, Michelle Williams and Jen's wonderful together so we can get just the perfect um vision that Dawson has for that scene there. Yeah, pretty cool.
Oh, man.
It was cute, though. And she, like, does it again. And she, like, laughs.
Yeah, I thought that was cute. Yeah, it felt like relatable in a sense. But at the same time, the um sound booth operator, who's just not paying any attention. So your mom, he's only there to.
Remind us that Dawson's at Mommy's office.
Yeah, I just loved how unnatural that was. Hey, have you seen your mom uh today? So out in the news station hallway, they grab a product placement Diet Coke from a vending machine, and they catch Dawson's mom, Gail Manmeat, making out with soft Bee Bob. We Dalian on Dawson's face as this reality completely shatters.
I just couldn't believe that they were in the middle of the hall kissing. It's like, okay, does everyone at the.
Office know about this?
You're being so nonchalant.
The producers like, senior mom today.
Also, she knew Dawson was coming in.
Yeah.
So wouldn't you steer clear of any of that if, you know, fucking Ding Dong. Also, another shout out to Jen's outfit. She is dressed like a TV anchor. Very specifically um in this scene. She's got, like, a crisp button up shirt, and it's, like, bright red. She's at the TV station, and they kind of put her in um that professional outfit. I think it was intentional. It seemed intentional. I don't know.
She wants to be a new thinker she's trying to gun for that.
Oh, my God.
Banker shot.
She's using it.
Oh, my God. Poor Dawson. He's such a victim.
No wonder. Uh so that's, like, why she's with him.
No, I just think it was like. She's like, okay, I'm going to go to the news station with Dawson today. I'm going to dress the part that's, like, Ben's perspective on it, but she's.
Also using Dawson to become a news Inc. Oh.
Before you forget, this is the first terror music the uh Zoom in.
Yeah. As this realization um sinks in on Dawson, I titled this one Dawson's emotional soundtrack because this is us experiencing what it's like to be uh Dawson as his world collapses around him. It sounds to me like we're listening to Wish You Were Here. Pretty sure if the Toad, the Wet Sprocket style, I'm pretty damn sure the.
Thing that sucks later, we'll get into it. But that song queue happening twice in this episode makes me think that they're putting his mother cheating on the same level as Jen having sex a few times, which is such a fun thing to equate.
Yeah, I was going to mention that later, but it's more like just the things in his life that he thought were, uh like the people that are lying to him. Like there are multiple things happening at once.
Yes. His reality.
Like his reality. Yeah.
I thought um it was an effective music queue. We got the picture pretty well. And I just think that the transition to him sitting there emotionless on the bench in our next scene while that song is playing like a statue is perfect.
Yeah. Because they smash cut to Dawson being just completely shell shocked on that bench. And love is, too. So Jen tells him, like, they can talk about what just happened if he wants to. And it's also worth noting how funny uh is that Jen herself admits that their relationship is extremely surface level and they never talk in depth about anything.
So this would be a great opportunity.
To talk to him without a movie referencing thrown in for bag.
It was like a Gen monologue because he doesn't see anything. And she carried that whole little park bench scene. Yeah.
I mean, it was almost like a scene out of a comedy movie because basically she gets that line out and then what does he do? Runs away.
Nothing fucking leaves.
He doesn't say a single thing. He just leaves. I love that Jen calls him out. Like you said. I thought it was about goddamn time. Somebody is like, hey, Dawson, can um we talk like real people for a change?
You have to be so gentle with them, too. She's like, I know that we have a lot of fun, quippy little convos, but if you want to talk to me like a human being.
Yeah. I put in my notes, like, Jen is so understanding and empathetic for Dawson here, and he is just so indignant and insolent.
Yeah. He's in shock.
He clearly doesn't feel comfortable talking to Jen about it, which makes. I mean, he's close um with Joey, and it makes sense that he wants.
To go talk to her, but.
Um yeah, but it was like kind of a bummer that he couldn't open up to her a little bit.
It would have been nice.
Yeah.
Um but it says a lot immediately after that. It's like him going to Joe, Joe to have this conversation and he spills the beans. And Joey knows about the affair. Uh she finally admits this to Dawson. He explodes, saying he doesn't want to be friends uh anymore and to have a nice life.
Uh right.
But you're supposed to be talking about these things with Jen, and they're leaning into this, like, will they? Won't they with Joey?
This is another situation where I was kind of wanting to see what everyone would do in this situation. Like, if you knew that your uh best friend parent was having an affair and you found out, would you tell your friend or how would you handle it?
I think she's a tricky situation. Yeah.
And what she says is, I didn't want you to hate me for telling you a valid thing, especially with him, because he is so, like.
I don't want to be the person with the target on my back for just being the messenger here. So I'm going to just let you figure that one out. It doesn't feel like my place because I didn't see any I don't know anything for sure. But I mhm think it's different because in this case, Joey did see it for sure. She does know that Mrs. Manmade is cheating on his dad. So I don't know. It's tricky.
It's hard. And then there's also the alternative of a person discovering it on their own by witnessing it. That's like, very traumatic both ways. It's like you're going to have some type of trust issue or something. But it's like, I feel like that's kind of traumatic on another level of actually having to witness that for sure.
Yes.
Which is what happened with Dawson.
So it's like a tough one.
It just seems so much more of like, if I was in Dawson's position, I would have wanted someone to tell me totally other than seeing it. And I feel like it's like one of those anxiety things that like, I mean, if I were in Joey's position, I would have the anxiety of being like that don't shoot the messenger thing of like, do I want that pressure to be put on me? But I feel like it's just such an anxiety thing. I would have wanted to know, especially Joey's best friend. So it's like, yeah, I think if.
You place yourself in Dawson's shoes, you would always want to know rather than find out yourself, right?
Yes.
But at the same time, you probably wouldn't believe it if somebody told you unless you saw it with your own eyes.
Yeah. I've had a similar type of situation happen where people knew things that were happening, and I didn't know until I witnessed something and then didn't find out till later that people were like, yeah, you didn't see that. Yeah, I get it.
Yeah.
I feel like I could easily see Dawson, like, Joey telling Dawson and Dawson being like, Nah, not believing her.
I could, too. But again, I just cannot get past the fact that this whole fucking show starts with them discussing whether or not his mom is cheating on her. He is the one who initiates this as a possibility. So to go back to this conversation, to this question, if I were in a situation where my best friend is like, hey, do you think my mom's cheating on my dad because of X evidence? And then I'm like, yeah, probably not. And then I see it. Hell yes, I'm going to tell that friend now. You already suspect it?
Yeah.
Sorry, I don't want to be the one to tell you this, but this is what I saw. So it's a show forgot.
Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I think it's pretty accurate.
Well, I can't remember if it's in this scene or a different scene where I think it is a scene where Dawson goes. He does bring it up where he's like, I've joked about it before, but I never thought it would be a real. Yeah, that wasn't a joke when you.
Mentioned it, like in the first episode. And even Joey kind of mentions things here and there in the beginning of this episode, but he never picks up on it.
I want to pick it up again, though. But the Joey versus Jen thing and like, who he wants to be with kind of thing, because what did he say at the dance was like, she's someone that I can talk to, just like you, Joe, or whatever. It's like, well, then why not talk to Jennifer first if you feel like they're both identical in your mind of people who you can talk to? Yeah, it's also funny, too. Like four or five scenes from now, he's going to be talking to Jen about it, too. And I really thought they were going to drag that out a little bit more, but it was only like five minutes within TV time. It took him to go back to Jen to talk to her about it.
Well, any last thoughts here?
I don't think so.
Then let's go to our second commercial break uh here. We'll be back on the other side.
Uh.
So we come back and we get a quick little sequence of Pacey biking into work where he sees Ms. Jacobs and Mr. Gold across the street at a cafe, looking as though they're flirting and Pacey looks shattered. And back at the manmed household, Dawson runs into his mom coming home from work. He's clearly distressed and doesn't know how to even look at her, and she just assumes that he's having real problems.
She says, Is it one of the many women in your life? And he's like something like that, which is kind of true because it is his mom.
I kind of felt like she's an.
Idiot because he's being weird towards you.
Joey knows.
He'S seen you with Bob. Uh yeah.
How aren't you piecing this together. Right.
I think she's, like, very purposefully.
Just not acknowledging, uh pretending, and trying to pretend like it's something else intentionally.
A little shout out to Mrs. Leary's outfit here. Her hair is topsy Taila. Do you um remember those?
No, I don't.
I never did it. Topsy tail was a tool where you could loop your hair through it and then pull it through and it loops it around through itself. So she's wearing that style half up with the topsy. Or at least costuming. Definitely used a topsy tail.
Okay.
I just did a quick Google image.
Yes, um exactly. And then her metal briefcase.
She an FBI agent.
It looks like an FBI um briefcase. I loved her outfit. I was, like, cute. She's got, like, this all black.
Yeah. No wonder she's getting dicked down by everyone in town.
She's a hot mom. Honestly.
Back to the line of, like, hard one of the many women in your life. Back to that line. This is where I kind of realize that all of the women in his life are lying to him. Joey, Jen and his mom.
That's true. Um it's a good point.
Just like all women in real life. Right?
It's true. All the women in my life are lying to me.
We're a bunch of liars.
It really plays into that and sell like they're bakers because we're about to.
Find out that Jen has been lying to her. He's about to find out. And we know that Joey has been lying because she knew about the fair. And his mom is lying because she's having her.
Yeah.
I'm trying to think of in Kevin Williams other work because Nev Campbell as the final girl in Scream. She's redemptive and a good innocent person and the same thing that it's Jennifer Love Hewitt, right? Yeah, I know you did last summer. And she's also a good redemptive person. It's like they're okay. Um i wonder why this show specifically where he made all the women liars.
It's like they're all lying to him to protect him.
True. He is amazing because he lives in a fantasy world.
Yeah.
So Dawson goes to Graham's place to pick up Jen, mhm but has a quick word with Graham and gives a spiel that he knows she doesn't like him and that she thinks he's just another six craze teen, but pleads his case. That that really isn't it.
The only thing that I can say is, like, who would think uh to have this conversation with their grant. You know what I mean?
Like a TV conversation would never happen to react.
No.
Okay, let's put it in the context of meeting your new girlfriend or crush's parents. Right. You would never be like, Hi, a new mom and new dad. I promise. I don't just want to have sex with your child. I really, genuinely like them.
Not doing uh them any favors.
No, it's really not.
I do love the way that she says Jennifer, though.
Jennifer, that was like her opera voice coming out. Remember, she was in a classically trained officer. You can tell in that moment.
So at a very picturesque Park, Dawson finally spills his guts to Jen about his parents. He uses this opportunity to say that secrets destroy uh relationships and begs her to be 100% honest with him moving forward. And Jen finally gives us the big reveal about her extremely secretive New York City past, that she's had multiple sex partners and she's not a Virgin, as Dawson had thought. He says he's pretty cool about this new info, but he's clearly completely spun out about it.
It's like your boyfriend, right?
That singular boyfriend, right.
Uh this is where I thought of the movie Kids. Yeah, I know I brought it up earlier, but this is where I was like, I did the math on her age. Pretty young.
Yes. I'd love Harmony Corrine came in to write an episode of Doctor.
I got another shout out to her outfit. Yeah, it was amazing. Another mock neck top, black jeans, chunky belt, chunky boots. Love it.
This is a regular Stella fit. When I saw it the first time, I said Stella.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. When I saw that, I was like, oh, cute.
Yeah.
I was like, okay, I can wear that tomorrow. Yeah.
I felt the same way about Dawson's outfit.
His black Pearl necklace.
Yeah.
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I know I'm wrong going into this, but does he wear the same outfit every episode?
Looks like it. He has, like, uh a uniform.
It's like a cartoon. It's like he's Doug funny.
The same two things with clothing uh every time idea.
Should the forest dress up them for Halloween?
Um oh, my gosh, yes.
At the time of this podcast episode being released, I don't think we've even um landed yet on artwork for our episode. I mean, I think maybe for our artwork, it should be the four of us dressed like them.
Photoshopped on the beach.
Oh, yeah.
I feel like we had talked about putting our, like, photoshopping our heads.
We could just go to the beach and kick around the sand.
Yeah.
We could bring a friend and have them take photos of us.
So back to her revealing to Dawson. She says, they sent me up here because the cliches about teenagers in the big city are true.
They move fast.
Yes, they move fast.
And um then she said, hey, I'm walking here.
They go through those your boyfriend. And then we get the same terror music.
Yeah, well, it's Amnesia by Toad the Wet's Rocket. That's the song that it is. They use that same thing that I played earlier, but then they actually lead into the verse instead of just going and cutting it off. We actually get the song there. And again, like I said, it's the second appearance of Toadewitz Brocket. We got one last week. We got one this week. Maybe we'll get one every episode for uh the rest of Dawson's Creek.
Who knows, maybe we'll get the exact same music cue for the rest of the show.
Such bad timing for Jen to dump it on Dawson when she knows he just found out about his mom.
So he is the one who says it. He says, I want honesty. That's the one thing that I need. Basically, you need to be 100% honest with me. And then she asked, you actually mean that? And he basically is like, Well, yeah, because I didn't see it coming with my mom. She's like, There are more people in your life than just mommy.
All right.
For example, me, here's something you probably didn't want to know. And he's a little petulant child about it. He gets some information and it completely shakes his vision of who Jen is. No longer is. She this perfect girl next door who's up on a pedestal. Oh, my God, she's had sex with somebody and it was not her boyfriend. Oh, my God. How bad could it be?
Watch kids at a very young age.
But also, we don't know that we're.
Saying they're uh 16.
It could have been right before she came.
Oh, yeah, I know. I'm not ashamed, like having sex at young. But, Matt, it sounds like it wasn't just that. It was like a lifestyle, some sort of. So I just thought that is pretty young.
Yeah, of course.
Young in general.
You know, what would be better in this situation is maybe not shaming her for it, not being an asshole and instead being like, wow, thank you for your honesty. I'm sure that was hard.
Yeah. But we're not going to get up to Dawson.
Yeah, of course. Your baby, man.
To be real.
Like any teenage maybe in this day and age, people are more sex positive. But I feel like at that age, there's so much jealousy.
Like what we're talking about. He's a complete product of the brainwashing tropes of heteronormative ideals.
Yeah. And I think what's offensive about it is that he almost tries to weaponize it as him being empathetic and understanding. But mhm in reality, he is completely not empathetic or understanding of anybody else's situation. I feel like he is the epitome of this good guy gone bad. He's white knighting everything without actually understanding what he's defending or why he's defending it and realizing that the reason that he's defending all these people is because he wants to be the good guy, not because he actually cares about them or their experience.
He doesn't care about anyone.
Yeah, and we will talk about this later when Jen is talking to Joey about advice, but Joey speaks to that and just that he wants things to go his way all the um time. And he thinks in black and white.
Yeah, because if you turn around, he could have been like, oh, man, that must have been tough. Like your parents kicking you out, but instead you're a terrible person.
Wait, so you're not a registered nurse? Who's actually here to take care of your grandpa.
Yeah.
I thought you knew how to administer medicine and were giving him physical therapy.
I have really bad memory. Sorry. Listeners in this show, was there ever an actual conversation where she said uh flat out that she was a Virgin?
No, uh she was trying to kind of get Joey off her by just agreeing. Like, yeah. Joey asked, are you a team?
Uh i thought or something.
Yeah, it was a conversation about whether they were back at the movies. Yeah. So there kind of was a moment, but I don't know, it's crazy to.
Think about is when do you think that was in Dawson's Creek timeline, how long ago was the movies from this episode that we're watching? Was it a week ago? Was it a month ago?
There's a point in this episode where they say she's been there for four months.
Right.
Because I remember thinking, like, TV um time. That doesn't make any sense because this shows only been on for five weeks.
Four weeks.
So it's like every week of the month.
Uh interesting. That kind of makes sense because episode one to episode two. Episode two is the school dance. Like, the school dance is never in the first week of school.
No.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to class. You want to go grind in the auditorium?
Because it was like a big football game, so it would have had to be in the fall, right?
Interesting.
It would have been like.
Yeah, probably move on.
We do find out a little bit more about Graham. She's a nurse.
That's true. She's a registered nurse.
Quick question. Do you know what? Graham is dead.
No, of course the dead this whole time.
Okay, well, zooming past that. We're finally at Caveside uh High for the first time this episode, and Paci sees Miss Jacobs and Mr. Gold playfully chatting in the hallway and he slams his locker in frustration.
Anyone? Any of you ever Slam your lockers in frustration?
I don't think I've ever locked.
Oh, really? I don't know.
Probably.
Maybe not such a mood.
Yes, I was always jealous because we didn't have lockers like that at my school. We had like the little half locker cubby kind of things. And you weren't like a sign. Not everybody uh used one, so there wasn't. And also, we're in outdoor school, so we didn't have that hallway mhm of lockers that you always see on TVs, on the outside of the buildings, outside of your classroom walls and lockers. The only thing I kept in my locker. What did you guys keep in your mind?
I had anxiety over lockers. Could never remember the code. I'd have to write it down. So I carried all my books. I was scared to go to my locker.
Um yes, that's a lot.
Yeah.
In high school, we didn't have lockers. I don't think. I think they were like optional, but no one really use them in middle school. Definitely used a locker every day and I had so much fun decorating it. I remember getting like fun little magnets and little mirrors and pictures.
Who'd you have posted in your locker.
That's a good question.
I don't know if I remember which really sucks.
I wish I did because I bet I like, do you have any photos?
I don't think so.
Like disposal.
I didn't have any pictures or I didn't decorate my locker at all. All I did was put my biology textbook and my binders.
Yeah, I don't um think I had anything because the other anxiety was like, I don't know which one's mine. I can't remember.
I've always had this weird. I can remember numbers really well, especially combinations of numbers. So I was the kid in our friend group who like knew where everybody's locker was and what their combination.
Wow.
And it feels like very on brand.
And what's funny is I can't remember birth dates or phone numbers at all.
So wait, all of your friends gave you their locker combos?
Yes, universally. Every single friend I had gave me their lockers and I had a Rolodex of it. No, the ones that I knew, my close friends uh you're hanging out with.
Sharing books or whatever. Yeah.
Funny. Did you guys have lockers in College? I did, no.
I had a dorm room where I kept it.
Cool. Big flex in my locker. Thank you.
I just mean that's where my books were kept.
I had a dorm room. I moved off campus my sophomore year of College. But I did have a locker in College and I remember that's where I really got to use. That's where I felt like I was living my high school dream.
Strange.
In my College locker, uh I rode my bike to school. So I'd have a change of shoes in my locker. Uh i'd usually have a change of clothes in my locker and then I'd have all my notebooks for taking notes in class.
Damn.
I just had like a LockPack.
I had a really big backpack in College. I had like one of those backpacks and I would just like stuff so.
Much shit in there as much as you could. Uh yeah. I need to look like I'm busy. So maybe like four sweatshirts and I don't know, do I have any Tupperwares.
That I can put in here?
For some reason, I never really understood the concept of a locker too heavy for me because I was like, uh I'm taking four classes a day in high school because we just sectioned off every other day the set of classes. It's like if I only have four books and like a notebook, like, uh why would I ever need a locker? Because I can just carry everything with me at all times.
Yeah, it's a losing proposition because if you put shit in a locker, you don't need it. But if you put shit you need in a locker, then you don't have it.
Yes.
And then you have to keep going back to it, and then you have.
To remember the combo. Remember where it is.
You just have to remember it forever, like me. And then you get to feel really cool when somebody's like, oh, I forgot my locker combination. You're like, wow, I just remember it.
Feeling so good if you got the combo, like, on the first try.
I really felt that in my pleasure. Okay. Yeah.
Well, I guess around the corner, Jen sees Dawson, and uh he's been pretty hard to find. That morning. She invites him to hang out and watch a movie or study, but he's very cold toward uh her. She starts to give him the about last night talk, but he dips.
Yeah, he's such a prick.
He really sucks.
All I have to say is he's just such an asshole here. Like, comparing and contrasting his behavior in the early part of this episode, like at the ice house where mhm they're discussing what's happening between Pace, the sex tape, and then Jen's like, oh, well, I got to go. And Josh is like, oh, I'll walk you. And he's all happy and he wants to help out. And to this where he can't even look her in the eye. He can't look at her. He's just basically ignoring her the entire time. It feels totally on brand for a teenage boy.
Yeah.
Like, on the one hand, James Vanderbak nailed what that was probably like, four girls back then.
Why aren't you talking to me?
Pacey goes into Ms. Jacobs English lit class and confronts her uh about his issue about open relationships and gives her the ultimatum of him or Mr. Gold. She reveals that Mr. Gold is gay and they're just friends. She admits that she's just as confused about her relationship with Pacey as he is.
First gay character. First gay characters didn't see that coming. No, not at all.
And I love just, like, reactions. Can you bring up say it louder, please.
Can you bring up the audio clip of the screen?
I wish. Yeah. From the ADR. Yeah.
That would sum up his reaction pretty much.
So this is where Pacey and Dawson are the same person in my mind, because their reaction in this moment is the exact same. They are both punishing um their respective romantic interests for their real or perceived sexual activity.
Right.
In Paisley's case, he is angry at Ms. Jacobs because he thinks that she is interested in and are active with another person. In Dawson's case, he is upset with Jen because at some point in her past, she decided to touch another man. Right. So they are both the exact same person here. They're both guilty of the exact same thing. And I don't know, they're both dirty. In my mind, neither one of them looks good here. They both look like shit. It's just gross.
I hope the show knows that. I wonder if the show is saying, like, this is what boys are like, and that's why they're doing this instead of being like these very well fleshed out characters that know something or reaction. I don't know, the product of its time.
Did you all notice that she shushed him when he was like, Mr. Gold is gay, but she didn't shush him when they're clearly talking about their relationship as a student teacher in a public place at school. Right. She's like, don't tell people that he's gay. But, oh, let's talk about our illegal relationship.
It's 1998. Like, that got milk at it's totally fine to allude to him having sex with an older person. But goddamn it, do not be gay. Cool that Mr. Gold is gay and not the caricature of a gay person that you would typically from a late 90s media thing.
Yeah.
Do we think that Mr. Gold is a real character that Kevin Williamson mhm is writing into his story? Did he actually have this film teacher in his life who he looked up to in a way, who taught the subject, who got him on this path, and he later comes to find out that he's gay? Or is Kevin Williamson writing a part of himself into this world that is already autobiographical? Right. Dawson is Kevin. We know that.
But, yeah, that's kind of what I thought he was writing himself into it.
It would be a fitting role for him as the film teacher in school.
Yes. I mean, it's like wishful thinking, too. It's like, oh, when I was a gay kid, like, I wish I had a gay teacher. There was also in the film that could be like, hey, relate. I know what it's like.
Yeah.
But it's interesting that the person who is in some ways most like the real Dawson is the most against the real Dawson. Mr. Gold does not want Dawson in his class. He doesn't want him there. He's kind of punishing him at every turn. They are so distant. They're not relating. They're not having a real relationship here. Dawson is kind of like seeking his affection or approval in a way. I don't know.
I mean, it kind of works for me because if I think if I was a professor of film or something right now, are you? But if I had a student that was like me when I was 15 and I was know it all piece of shit because I was like, I saw Requiem for a Dream twice. I know everything about movies. I'd be like, yeah, get the fuck out of my film class. It could be Williamson being a little um Meadow with it being like, Man, I sucked as a kid.
And that would be cool, too, because if he is both characters.
Right.
If Dawson is young Kevin and Mr. Gold is old Kevin, what an interesting metadata element to be like older. You would not like younger. It's essentially the message that we get there definitely.
Does any older version of us like.
The younger version of us but at the same time, sometimes I look back on my younger self and I'm like, Man, I wish that I was able to keep that aspect of my personality, you know what I mean? I felt like I was so much more outgoing when I was a kid than when I grew up. And that would probably be the kind of thing that if I were Kevin Williamson, Mr. Gold and Dawson, I would probably have Mr. Gold pick on Dawson for that thing.
Right.
Just like we kind of see you're too precocious in your film knowledge. You got to tone it back. You actually don't know shit.
I guess it's later in the day and Jen confronts Dawson about him being cold, which we've already seen. So this feels like a mirror image of the last thing that we saw with him and can only assume it's about her past. She wants him to admit it, and he's still extremely withholding.
Uh yes, I already said this, but I'll say it again. He's incapable of having a conversation about his emotions. I don't know if it's because he's not aware of them. I feel like that's a very accurate thing for teenage boys and for men in general is stereotypically. Men are not in touch with their emotions. They're not able to articulate um them or have conversations about them. And that's what I feel like the scene is all about. He's not equipped to have this conversation, despite how he presents himself in the world.
Still kind of like that to this day. I mean, we're watching Temptation Island right now, and there's one contestant on there that's a guy that's like, wow, I've never had an emotion before.
Yeah.
So those things are still very relevant.
Toxic masculinity. And it's interesting to see that. I think it's interesting to see that portrayed on. I think, as I'm alluding to with these last couple of scenes, Paci and Dawson are the same person. They're two sides of the same coin, the same toxic masculinity coin. Right. On one hand, we have Dawson, who kind of purports to be aware of this and is trying to be the good guy. On the other hand, we have Pacey, who plays into this and is totally reckless. He doesn't care how other people think of him, but they're both products of the same toxic masculinity, telling them in their minds that this is the way they need to act.
Well, with that, I mean, at Screenplay Video, Dawson finally caught Pacey up about Jen's past. And of course, Pacey weaponizes this information to convince them that Jen is giving Dawson an in by saying that she's no longer a virtue and he should make a move. But rightfully so. He tells Dawson that the Gen the Dawson has built up in his mind does not exist, that she's not some movie character that he is in real life, and he needs to come to grips with that. Uh and with that, the convo uh shifts, and Dawson says he plans on telling his dad about his mom's affair.
Yeah.
I mean, it feels like we're consistently getting this narrative that's like, yes, Dawson lives in this little movie fantasy land, and people I like that people different characters are also challenging that to his face multiple times. We're seeing that a lot. But I'm also pretty over. I'm like, okay, we get it.
I just wish there's a different way for them to approach it because we're watching a coming of age story and a part of growing up is realizing that the world is not the way that you thought it was when you were a kid. But everyone describes that to Dawson in the way of it's not a movie, you're in a fantasy. And I wish that we could just get a different fucking allegory for it.
Yeah. Maybe they're just trying to get it out here in episode four so we can feel like it's all happening at once kind of in this episode.
Yeah. It's just like there needs to be another Avenue where his controlling aspect isn't um over another character where it's the exact same theme of they're not the person I thought they were because of the fantasy. There are a million different ways to express that that I think should happen in the show that aren't just I mean, we are watching a relationship based show. It's not a high concept show, so it's kind of hard for me to even figure out what other way that would be. But if you have three or four episodes in a row where it's the exact same kind of character play that we're having, it's tiring. Yeah. It's exhausting that we're getting the same thing over and over again.
Maybe we're supposed to feel like Dawson where we're like, okay, enough, um and.
Maybe it's setting the rest of the.
Show up to kind of like for.
Those barriers to be broken down and then for him to kind of grow.
Yes. That's what I meant about, like, they're getting it all out and like this. I feel like maybe we're getting hit over uh the head with it, but how can that there's no way it can keep continuing because he's realizing this episode. He's kind of like breaking out of this fantasy. So I feel like we're going to.
Maybe get less of that if he's all called Discovery.
Exactly.
Discovered.
It all also called Carnal Knowledge. Yeah. Also, depending on which DVD box you're.
Looking at, it's interesting with a show like mhm this, because we talked about at the top of the first episode of this podcast. But it's like with episodic television shows like this in the other shit, like Star Trek or whatever, it's episodic and not like the character stuff continues. But each episode should be about something different that reflects the character stuff. But each episode has kind of felt exactly the same with those themes. Like a normal television show, you get the rising tension and the climax, but every episode has been exactly the same. So we're getting the exact same thing over and over and over again. Whereas, like, at least I'm hoping that in season two and after that is we start getting more of a variety of the ways that we could talk about these characters that aren't just, like, doing the exact same thing over and over again. Give me an episode where Pacey's car breaks down and, like, him and Joey go on an adventure and then uh separate these characters a little bit and have them do stuff that isn't just the exact same things that they're hitting beat for beat.
Yeah.
They just made it so intimate and so closed. And that's why I think this episode resonated. Well, I think with all of us on the first watch is because we're expanding our Dawson Peak world here. We're actually getting more locations because the first three episodes, they basically all happen in the same places. It's the school. It's Dawson's house. In episode two or episode three, we get introduced to the ice house. Cool. We got one new location, then we go to the deserted Beach Island. It'll never return there. For the most part, everything is happening in the same places and the same kinds of things are happening to the same people. We haven't gotten any real development on Pacey. We still haven't seen where he lives.
This was the first time we had Pacey and Dawson having. Right. Having like, sorry, wait, this is that screenplay video. In this episode, there's more of Pacey and Dawson's friendship coming to fruition.
We're getting development, and I think that we probably will get season one is mostly going to be an expository? Season. And when we get into season two mhm and season three, I'm hoping fucking fingers crossed that we'll actually get real development and real momentum happening. But it does feel like we're just kind of getting the groundwork laid for the wildlife train to just go crazy on the tracks, and we just have to see where it kind of goes as it starts to move forward.
It was like such a brief little window that we talked about, but that tiny little piece where they weren't talking about. They are still talking about a relationship, but when Dawson does talk about his parents and tell them and there's, like, a brief little hint of PC going, I'm so sorry, Manow of friendship. And I'm like, give me more of that. I want more of that.
Yeah. It was that specific moment. I was like, yeah, we haven't seen that yet.
Yeah. It was weird for me to be like, Wait, Pacey is right. I thought you were the worst character.
Who are you starting to love?
Yeah.
Is this it?
He's starting to be vulnerable.
He's starting to be uh vulnerable, and he's starting to explain his behavior by.
Showing he's kind of owning up.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I think on that point, it is time for our final commercial break here. So we will be back on the other side.
Mhm and we're back at the Manmed household. Dawson's dad is getting ready for the big 20th anniversary plan, dinner thing, whatever it is. Dawson realizes this is his oneonone moment, so he tries uh to drop the bomb of Mrs. Man Meets a Fair. But Gail pops in, and the affair stays a mystery.
Dawson's dad is like a dog. That's all I have to say. He's just like, what, son, you want to talk to me? And then Gail walks in and he's like, oh, time for walkie. Okay. Bye, son. He's just like, Sorry, didn't you have something to say? No.
Okay, cool.
Bye. Yeah.
When Dawson is, like, clearly not going to say anything, he's like, I just hope you have a really great conversation. Here he goes.
Wow.
Thanks.
Okay, cool.
By golly, cool.
I am a good boy.
A lot of shows go off the rails, and this show will definitely have a moment where they jump the shark, and this show will no longer feel like what it used to do. Do you think we'll ever get an episode where someone turns into an animal?
God, I hope so.
There's an episode of Family Matters where um Steve Urkel creates a machine that he steps into and it makes him cool.
Oh, wow. Okay.
And it's like his alter ego. I forgot what I remember.
That right.
Uh yeah. Was this the fun?
Yeah, I think so.
This sounds familiar. Yeah. And then Laura Erkel's uh love in that show is like she's in love with the cool version of Steve. So I wonder if this show goes off the real point.
They do some crazy stuff and turns into Cliff.
Uh uh Mr. Man meat is goofy.
Yeah.
I hope he turns into a dog. We go to the ice house where Joey and Jen fail the Bechtyl test and only talk about Dawson. Joey explains that Dawson suffers from only child syndrome, and Jen thinks that Joey is trying to scare off of the relationship. But Joey offers some terrible advice and says she'd do what Dawson is doing and just wait for him to grow up. And he'll come around. Joey is super transparent and says that she's stupid enough to wait forever, which, if I regen, I'd take this as enormous red flag that Joey is extremely in love with Dawson.
It was like two AIS talking to each other. Good evening, Jen. How are you? This is what young boys think girls do in their free time is just talk about the boys in their lives.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is like, if I were teaching a class on how to not write women in television, this is the show because the only thing they think about is Dawson. I don't know. Maybe this show ends and it's all been a dream of Dawson. This is just a projection of, like, what he thinks is happening in the world around him when he's not in the room. Of course, this is what he assumes. They're only talking about him in their relationship.
Yeah. I don't have much to say about this scene other than it's clear that Joey is in love with Dawson.
Talk about that fucking awful advice, though. It's like, yeah, he is a piece of shit. But you know what if you just wait for it.
Yeah, but she also says he's one of the good ones and that she would wait. Like she's in love with Dawson.
Well, and Jen kind of senses it. She's like, Are you just trying to scare me off or something like that? Joey's like, no, all the good ones are bad with girls when they're young. Basically. No, you are trying to scare her off.
I guess I uh just wish we had evidence that he was one of the good ones.
Yeah.
Instead of an intel, um we finally.
See Miss Jacob's house, and Pacey is in her bed reading Time magazine's 1998 Person of the Year edition, which, for those who don't remember, the Person of the Year was a shark. And he's asking her how many men she's been with. She says she's only been with three people and one of which is Paisy, which makes him grin as though she uh just gave him a gold star on his report card.
So I did look up the actual Person of the Year in 1998 star, the lawyer who was part of the impeachment um of the process of impeaching Bill Clinton. They were both Person of the Year.
That's fun, though. So it wasn't a shark.
I wish it was.
Uh i just love how casual it is that he's just hanging out in.
Her bed, reading a magazine in her white Wicker bed.
Yeah, great.
Like entirely Wicker bed. I thought that was interesting.
Yeah.
Her bed and her lamps are in the shape. They're like houses. Little like house lamps.
Yeah. It looks like she bought everything from the store.
Exactly. Everything's Wicker.
I bet she's living in a furnished apartment. She just moved into town. This is what she's got. But I couldn't get my mind off of the fact that Pacey's just got a stinky ass feet right in her face and that neither of them cares. It's just little stinky socks just right there. She's just happily reading at his feet. It just uh felt like a very domestic scene. It felt like we pressed the fast forward button on their relationship for about nine months and all of a sudden we're just hanging out in bed. Cool. With our clothes on, too. It's not like they just had sex. It's like they got the note. No, they can't be in bed after sex. They can be on the ground after sex. But that time. No, they need to just be reading magazines together.
This is a relationship that has been through so much that they're very comfortable with one another already.
Yeah. After one date and two kisses and some smacking time.
It's mind blowing snacking time.
Yeah.
Lip smackers.
We let your lower lip dance, baby. She's doing, like, paperwork.
Yeah.
Do you think she's grading his homework at that same time? I'm dating a moron.
I think she's making mhm him a test cheating um key freeze.
And from.
Yeah, there we go.
She's like, oh, you're illiterate.
I need to give you the answers here.
Also a silly little thing here. That the Time magazine that Sharks F. One magazine issue was from nine to 97 in August. So Tamra probably has a Time magazine subscription. And she's um got old Time magazines lying around because that was a year old.
You know what's the best, though, is? Like, I love this. This is a really good head Cannon that a 15 year old boy would be going through something to read, and he's looking at Time magazines and goes, cool shark.
Yes, exactly. Out of probably all the Time magazines she has that are like some probably cultural or uh like, he picks the Sharks.
Yes. But also, she's the English lit teacher, so, you know, she has, like, actual books and shit around her house. And he's like, no, not a shark. Yeah. Is there Men's Health or Time?
Also water, like the water, they interesting.
He's the shark of the Creek.
Is he the predator?
Uh yes.
Apex predator of Capeside Pacey. Do we even know Pacey's last name?
Witter.
Witter.
I looked it up cause. Yeah, on the dot milk ad. Yeah.
Okay.
But we have not heard it.
I don't think maybe it's like a Cosmo framer thing. We find out much later.
I think. Just when I Googled Pacey got milk at it, it came up with Pacey Witter. I don't know if we've actually. No, I don't know if they've mentioned it in the show.
Well, that fits because they haven't really told uh us anything about Paisy. Yeah, I can't wait for Nita's three sisters.
So back at Jen's grandparents house, Jen treats her coma toast grandfather like Agent Cooper's voice recorder for Diane, telling him all about how Dawson and Graham thinks she's a slut and how she doesn't think it's a big deal and hopes one day that it won't be a big deal.
I love this scene. I thought it was so fucking weird. And also, uh I feel like we have, at this point in time, heard multiple stories about how somebody was in a coma and their family was talking to them and they got out of the coma and they were like, yeah, I could hear everything you were saying. Thank you so much. Like, it made me feel not alone. And I was thinking about poor Grandpa, who was just like, my granddaughter is a slut and everybody hates her.
Caressing his hand, telling her grandpa about her sex life. Yeah.
She was like, really?
My heart hurts. This is where my theory comes into play. Okay, so we know that Grandma and Grandpa are numerologists. They've got some kind of weird cryptic code as is portrayed through housewares in their house. And we also know that Nellie Olson and her uh dad are eternal vampires in this town. There are some lost boys that come through. Anderson Crawford on his boat. So here's what I'm thinking. Gramps is actually a Van Helsing style vampire. He's sick, all right? That's why he's in his deathbed. Grandma is his partner in crime. She is keeping all his secrets safe, I. E. The numerology all over the walls. And this is where it gets a little bit spicy. They're trying to protect Jen because there is a secret vampire cabal that is spreading throughout Capeside.
Oh, my God.
That soft Bee Bob is the mouthpiece. Because I don't think Gail is involved with this vampire takeover yet, but I believe that softball Bob is.
Okay, so this whole time we've been questioning, why is Gail with soft B Bob vampire lure?
Yeah, she's been lured using the Vampire's charm.
Yeah, she's been hypnotized.
I can just tell by the look on both Mal and Stella's face, we have totally convinced them of this cardio.
Yeah, they're freaking out. Stellar. You can get off the wall if you want. I know this is crazy, but, yeah, you're onto something. This is Salem's lot. Everyone is bad.
You'll all find out this is true.
I'm on board.
Okay?
I wasn't on board until the pins. Like when you started talking about the numerology with the pins.
They're like steaks.
Um oh, my God, the rolling pins.
I was like pins and the bowling pins. Okay, well, I'm glad that I got that out there. Thank you.
Fans are writing, and in the Twitter poll, the only answers you'll be able.
To use are yes and yes.
So in the final scene of the episode, Dawson is having a sad sack Elliott Smith moment at the town's make out spot established from the last episode being The Ruins, and Joey interrupts his moping and he's still putting up this front that he's mad at her. She tells him that Jen came to her for advice and Dawson turns it around to say that he feels like his friendship with Joey isn't what he used to be. They have some best friend banter and hey, they're back, baby. They riff on how in their past life they were probably married for 50 years and have a back and forth on their imaginary wedding. Joey alludes to being his wife, but that Jen was his date and he had a choice between them. There's an explosive sexual intention between them that opens the door for a smooch, but Dawson backs out of the sexy riffing and uh it ruins the sexy moment. Joey gets up to leave, reiterating how much fun their fake wedding was, and walks away, not without stopping 20ft away to turn back and look at him longingly as he continues to mop and stare out at the water.
Uh.
Cody came into our room today and said something about how he had a vision of our past life when we had a wedding and he brought Michelle Williams.
Yes.
I really don't understand that concept.
Yeah. What?
Um why did they bring dates to their own way?
It felt like even in their fantasy life, they couldn't conceive of them being actually romantic, which was what really confused me. What is that saying? It really confused me. I was like, wait, are we flirting or are we not flirting? It feels like we're platonically flirting. Even in our most romantic fantasy, we don't have romantic intention.
I honestly think that Joe is flirting, obviously. And I think Dawson is flirting, but he doesn't even know that he's flirting. I think he's just, like, fun.
He was clueless. Yeah, this is fun.
Playing for ten. We've always been playing for ten, huh?
Yeah.
Really weird.
Yeah.
Just a really strange scene and I don't know.
Yeah.
They have such a close friendship. I wonder if it's like sometimes they feel like an old married couple where it's like they were like, yeah, I don't know.
Leave it at that.
Yes.
Don't fantasize about a wedding and that you brought dates. I don't know.
This scene is so wild to me. I really harp on people that want things to be as realistic as possible at all times in media. Like, it's a story. We're supposed to have some fun. But this scene does not make any sense because Dawson smoping. She comes in for literally 30 seconds, and I can only assume that the ruins are, like, somewhere very far away from the town. So she came for 30 seconds. They have this tiny moment. She goes, Well, I'm going to leave and then just leave. And then, as if nothing happens, I'm going to keep staring at this water. It's like, so weird.
So maybe I'm getting too heady here. But my thought as we're sitting here discussing this is the reason that they're still incapable of having a truly romantic fantasy about their past life. Is Joey can sense that Dawson is gay. Why would we be having this faux marriage, right? Getting married. But even then in this fantasy, we don't have romantic intentions because people think.
They'Re supposed to get married.
Right? It's a beard wedding. Right? Like, for social acceptability, this is still the course. Right? So for social acceptability, we would get married, of course, because we're best friends. We get each other. But I would bring a date because I don't really like you. I mean, that's weird. I wouldn't want to kiss you or anything. We'd get married, right? So even then, they don't know why, but even then, they still can sense that there's a level of incompatibility that they would just never be able to surmount. That's my head Canon read there.
I had the same thing thought as we were discussing this. It's almost as if because they're close, it's like we would get married. Yeah. That's what's expected.
Uh it would never work out.
But I hope the series finale is their wedding and that they've brought.
Yeah. Dawson brings Pacey or Joey brings um Jen.
I want to know who the rich man is.
Yes. The rich guy at the bar. Um exactly. Anderson. Yeah.
Wow. It comes full circle.
That was the first thing I thought.
Yes.
This is also the first time in the show that I've actually thought that people have good sexual attention because I thought they were really going to smooch.
Yeah. And he shoots her down totally unceremoniously.
She goes, did we save each other that night, Dawson?
And he goes, fucking devastated. I don't know.
So I just kind of lose after that.
Yeah. Pretty hazy at that point.
So maybe I honestly can't tell if Dawson the character is clueless or if this is like James Vanderbake just being a weird actor or what it is. Is he cautiously knowing that he's shooting you're down?
It seemed clueless to me. The way that he acted, that was like, he's clueless. But how can you be so clueless the way that Joey is talking to you?
Why does everyone keep saying he's so perceptive?
I know he's dead.
He doesn't understand what's happening, and I don't get how he doesn't see, dude, you are leading her on so hard here.
And the conversation was so clearly aiming for one purpose and one purpose only.
You think that Joey was going there to try to get a kiss out of Dawson or to try to get some kind of physical intimacy?
I don't think that she was going there with that in mind. But the conversation was so engaged with that. It's like, as soon as they start talking about their fake wedding, it's like.
We know where we are.
Actually, even before that, when they were talking about the whole, like, where is our friendship at this point? Like, does it belong in a Museum? Is it dead? It's like from right at that moment.
Okay. It's still on the table. Yeah.
So it's like, are we friends? Aren't we friends? And it leaves with her just leaving him alone and her saying, um like, does that mean that they're just like, what are we in Dawson's mind? Is he just like, well, that was a funny situation. This water is crazy. Yeah.
And interesting, we get Dawson just looking out over the water at the ruins. We've kind of tried to theorize about water. About what water symbolizes in Dawson's Creek universe, what the symbology is there. We kind of talked about the passage of time, coming of age, all that kind of stuff there. So I don't know. I feel like I just can't help but feel like Dawson knew what he was doing. Like, he knew he was shooting her down there, but he's keeping his options open. I don't know. It just feels like the strangest interaction there. The more I watched that scene, the more I don't understand what that scene was supposed to be telling us because it really was like, well, things are still on the table for us, right?
Yeah.
This whole thing with Jen isn't really working out, but we could have been a thing, uh couldn't we? And they're both, like, totally could have been a thing. Maybe.
And then it ends with maybe not, maybe not.
But also with Joey being like, I wish it was still a maybe.
Yeah. This is going to be the last time that she tries this.
No way this is going to go on for the whole show for sure.
Yeah, I would guess, oh, this is going to be a season finale thing, but the trajectory of the show, this will be the next episode.
I think it was interesting.
Like, Dawson kind of says something about how they haven't really been getting along or their friendship has been Rocky for the last few weeks. Few months.
Yeah.
Um and then in the first episode and, like, the first scene, they talk about how they're changing because they're teenagers and he kind of brushes that off. But now it's like, okay, that's kind of flipped. Um and we see that because of him having interest in Jen, you know, all these different things that have come up. Now he's the one that's like, yeah, I don't know about our friendship.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Well, should we get into our ratings for the episode? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, well, who wants to go first with their rating?
I'll do it. I give this a three and a half out of five. It's an enormous jump from the previous episode, which is a big old stack of shit, obviously. Like the Pacey, Tamara is her name. That stuff totally sucks. And we've been there, done that. We all hate it. I don't think I need to reiterate that anymore. That will always be what it is. But um a lot of the stuff is breezy and fun and nice, and it had a lot of stuff that I really wanted the show to be, which is like, light relationship stuff and, like, light drama. I feel like we're finally learning a little bit more Pacey, that he's not just an insult school uh shooter, that he actually has a vulnerable side and he's putting up this toxic masculinity front because that's what he had to do in the Dawson still sucks shit, but also for those similar reasons. And he's still a growing boy, and I just wish someone else played it because him doing the baby boy stuff sucks. But yeah, I'm still enjoying the show, and I thought, this is like a pretty good episode.
Yeah.
I feel like I'd probably give it a three. I don't remember what I gave the last episode, but it'd be funny if I gave it a higher rating um because I liked this episode more. But um I just feel so bored.
With Dawson.
And I'm excited. I just want a little bit more of the other characters. Um i really like Joey. I really like Jen, and I want to know more about them. And I want to know more about Pacey. And I'm kind of tired of seeing.
Dawson's um stupid face. Yeah, I think I gave last episode of three and a half, so I'm going to give this one a four because I again liked it a little better than the last episode. I agree on seeing more of Pacey and like the relationship between him and Dawson. Um their friendship also tired of Dawson, but I kind of like that he's getting some um slapped in the face a little with reality. Like, let's get him out of this. Let's get rid of this fantasy thing um and have some different things happen to him. I don't know. And by the end, it kind of left me wanting to kind of know where other people are going, where other stories are going. I need more Pacey, more Joey, more. I also want more Creek shots. Um more creeks.
I want to see more of Joey rolling around.
Um also, I did to establish that in the first episode and we never get more of her just happily running to the water or paddling up the Creek.
I also felt like by the end I had this thought of like a storms coming because it felt like Dawson, everything's kind of caving in. And the next episode is titled Hurricane. Yes. So it's a good buildup, I think. Yeah.
Interesting. Okay, so I am going to be a voice of dissent here and I'm going to give this episode a one. Oh, dude. Last week. Yes. Worse than last week. And the reason really is because of all the things that uh we've talked about so far.
Right.
Like, I love that we're getting more world building. I love that we're getting a little bit more development on other characters, but everybody has basically mentioned at this point, I'm fucking tired of Dawson. I don't give a shit about his struggles with being the only good guy in a world of bad guys, because that's basically how he's positioning himself. It's this very gross kind of representation of, I don't know, of boyhood, that I just don't like. I will say I would give this episode a five out of five on the Vampire Lore exclusively.
Yeah. They really gave us a lot.
They really gave us a lot here.
Oh, my God.
I just had a really great idea.
Oh, my God.
Oh, my God. So sorry.
Okay.
You know how Dawson is, like, making his stupid movie.
Yeah. Swamp Thing.
Yeah.
We could make a movie of, like, the Dawson's Creek characters with this vampire.
Yes, I love that.
And start to insert that into our podcast or something.
Our commercial breaks will be trailers for our vampire teen uh drama.
Okay.
Sorry.
I don't know what you mean by inserting the vampire stuff because it's already in Dawson's Creek.
Yeah, it's Cannon. Yeah, of course.
Sorry, uh you mean accentuated.
You meant like the focus.
No, we would insert our movie clip, we would record a movie, we would make a movie like Dawson and then we would like, give our viewers snippets.
Of it a vampire Patreon.
Okay. So actually, if you're listening to this at this point, we have actually inserted the full movie into our episodes. The only trick is the podcast is audio only. So you aren't getting any of the video.
And the video is amazing.
Videos. Really?
So cool.
So if you really want to see the video, you have to subscribe to our Patreon, which may or may not exist at this point in time.
But it's so unreal that we reached out to Ari Aster and without hesitation, he was just like, I would love to make this vampire movie for you that no one will ever see, that only people can hear the audio of.
Okay, please do the screen track. Yes.
I can't believe that we got Bramp soaker sign off and that we were able to use Dracula uh in this. Plus, Dose Fratu makes an appearance too. So you guys are really missing out on quite the opportunity here for cinematic treasures. But yeah, I go back to a one out of five in my rating. All right, so coming up next week on Freaks and Creeks, we are going to be watching episode five of season one of Dawson's Creek. As we have just discussed. It is titled um Hurricane. And the plot summary is when a major Hurricane strikes Capeside, all the principal characters take refuge in the Leary home.
All of them?
Uh all of them. Every single character, including Joey's very pregnant older sister Bessie and her boyfriend, where Jen's overly religious grandmother does not hide her bigotry towards them. Oh, wow.
Oh, my God.
This is going to be great.
I was not expecting this.
Okay, my first question is, with everyone going to Soleries house, is Gramps rolled in on his.
Oh, my gosh.
Well, he would be vulnerable to vampires if they didn't bring him over.
Oh, my God. I didn't um even think about that. They got to protect him.
Yeah.
Um.
I was wondering, there was no Joey's sister in this episode, so I was wondering if she's going to have her baby soon.
She baby during the Hurricane in the bathtub.
Yeah. Oh, my God. This is such a good opportunity for vampire shit. Because a vampire um can't enter your home unless you invite it in. And so people are going to come to the house being like, there's a storm out here. You have to let us in. You have to let us in. And Dawson's going to be like, well, of course uh we're going to let them in. And everyone else is going to be like, Dude, that's a fucking vampire.
I'm so excited.
Wow. Yeah.
Looking forward to that.
I can't wait now. Okay, well, recommendations. Oh, fuck, yeah, we do that. I can go first. I guess I went last during the uh last time of my recommendations this week. I've been playing a lot of electric guitar recently and as part of that I've been listening to a lot of kind of fun psychedelic music. So my recommendation this week is going to be two artists and I guess some specific records. I've been listening to a um lot of King Gizard and a Lizard. Of course, if you all don't know um King Gizard, they're great Australian. I don't even want to necessarily categorize them. But I would probably say like psychedelic rock jam uh rock band. They have 20 records which is insane. They have a huge discography and they're the kind of band where chances are they have a record that you will like. Regardless of whether you think you like psychedelia, you will probably find something you like. I um would say if you're looking for a place to start with, I'm in your mind, Buzz is a great place to start with. It's really fun, very jammy, very easy to listen to or just go back to their very, very first album. I believe it's called Willoughby Beach. Let me just verify that. Yeah, Willoughby's Beach. It's a great record, really fun. And then the other thing, if you are maybe a fan of King Gizzard or maybe you have heard them but you aren't super down to um dive back in. I'm going to recommend the band Naked Giants. They're from Seattle. Um they are a psychedelic garage rock band. They have several good EPS and albums. I'll go ahead and recommend their album Slough. It was from 2018 and it's got a bunch of really good, really just fun music to listen to. It's a trio out of Seattle and they're awesome.
I guess I will recommend Westworld. I am watching season one for the first time.
I'm having a lot of fun.
I um think we only have like three episodes left of the first season.
Big stuff coming.
Yeah.
It's been a wild ride.
Yeah, that's all I got. I will recommend the um show Minx on HBO. I'm going to read the synopsis here. In 1970s La, an Ernest young feminist joins forces with a low rent um publisher to create the first erotic magazine for women. And that low rent publisher is a publisher for porn magazines. And it's just great fun. Lots of good like 70s fashion, a lot of nudity, but it's hilarious. And Jake Johnson not Jack Johnson.
Yeah.
There's a special place in hell for the mid OTS um like guy acoustic bands. Shout out to Gavin Degras, Jason Morraz, Jack Johnson, some other uh John Mayer. I guess he kind of like came out of um that.
I know John Mayer is one of those people that he was so easy to hate and I think he still is so easy to hate. But he's also really talented and it kind of sucks that he is as good of a guitar player and has had such an influential stamp on music because I want to hate him. I really do.
He's a scumbag, but he's really good at guitar.
He's really fucking good at guitar.
I'm a big deadhead and he plays the dead now. Yeah, he's a dead and company.
He's the new Jerry.
Yeah, he does take the place of Jerry and he's amazing. I didn't want to like him, but then I watched him do a dark star and I was like, fuck this guy's. Amazing. Good stuff.
He knows how to play that goddamn guitar real well. Cody, what's your recommendation?
I got a music one.
What?
I got a music one. My recommendation is not only to listen to blackmitty go see blackmitty live if you don't know. They're an English post uh punk band, but unlike their peers, they're um super influenced by experimental like noise music and jazz. Their shows are insane. Um i just saw them for the first time and I haven't been to a show like that in a really long time. The crowd reaction was very uh cool. People were going nuts and blackmitty only played for like 50 minutes. But it was an enthralling 50 minutes and I later found out it's because their drummer kicked a hole through his base drunk because you're going so nuts. And they tore apart. They tore it apart after the show. It was a lot of fun. Get into it. They're uh sick. I also saw pine Grove earlier this week and for all you pine nuts out there and they were great. It was really heartwarming heading. Nice time.
Okay. Well, wonderful. That is this week's episode of freaks and creeks. Um please uh go and follow us on all the socials it is at freaks um and creeks pod. Find us uh on the internet. Follow us tell us where the best podcast you've ever listened to. Rate us and review us on any of your podcasters and please, um if you aren't already, which if you've made it to this point, you probably are. But please subscribe and tell us um.
Your deepest, darkest secret.
Yeah, tell us your deepest, darkest uh secret and we will see you next week on freaks and creeks. See you. Bye bye.
Uh.
Uh.
Um.
I had my tongue in your mouth, Ms. Giga.
That's perfect because I literally just started the recording right before you said that. So that'll be the very first thing, Ms. Jenga.
Cool.
Thanks.