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Welcome to the FourMan Podcast, where four shop teachers step out of the classroom and into the booth to talk all things building, trades, and the people behind the tools. Each week, we welcome a surprise guest from the world of construction — from seasoned pros to rising stars — to share real stories, career insights, and the kind of shop talk you won’t hear anywhere else.
Whether you're a student just picking up your first hammer or a veteran foreman with sawdust in your veins, this podcast brings you humor, heart, and a heavy dose of hands-on wisdom. Just straight-up conversations built on blue-collar pride.
Join us as we build futures, one episode at a time.
Tom Keena (00:00)
my brother was a high school teacher for 30 years. I while I was going through my apprenticeship, he was going through college. So he was paying out money. I was making money. And by the time he graduated, I was a journeyman and became a master electrician. And about fifteen years later, he goes, Do you mind if I ask how much money you make?
And I guess no, don't mind, You have made more money as an electrician than I have made as a high school teacher for the last fifteen years. And I don't think people realize that the trades pay really well. If you're a good worker and if you're like got a really good attitude and committed and everything.
Noah Hughes (00:47)
we are
joined with none other than Tom Keena a trades teacher out of Kalamazoo,
First of all, how long have you been trades teacher, Tom?
Tom Keena (00:54)
Well I taught at high school for one year and then I've been at the college for twenty seven years and I taught part time for like a semester, like one class. So
Noah Hughes (01:05)
Awesome.
Tom Keena (01:05)
a good twenty eight years.
Noah Hughes (01:07)
So what first
Tom Keena (01:08)
Yeah.
Noah Hughes (01:08)
got you into it? Were you a contractor before you started teaching?
Tom Keena (01:12)
Well I went through my apprenticeship and I actually wasn't a huge fan of how they how the apprenticeships were ran because they didn't have any hands on and they would always say, Well, you have on on the job training. For example, they'd they'd show us a wiring diagram. They're like drawing it on a board, and I'm like, Do we have an example that we can like actually go out and like troubleshoot? And they're like, No, no, this is you'll learn this on paper.
That was the the biggest problem there. But then I I got into the trade and I worked in the trade for about fifteen years. And all through that I kept getting apprentices. People would the the the foreman or whatever would always hand over an apprentice to me and they're like, You're really good at teaching these apprentices, we want you to teach So as I'm teaching them, I'm like, they don't they don't teach this to you in school. So I didn't like the way that the the apprenticeships were ran. They needed more more
hands on in the apprenticeship and they're like, no, no, no, that's fine. And I said, no, I really think they they do need more hands on. And then an opportunity came up. a friend of mine was teaching at a high school tech center and he was gonna move to Atlanta. I'm I'm in Michigan. He was gonna move to Atlanta. And he's like there's gonna be an opening there and he knew that I was looking. So then I took that and then I taught there for a year and then I transferred to a community college, which was
thirty miles away, closer to my house actually, and a bigger program,
I end up where I'm at.
Noah Hughes (02:40)
So what is a traditional when when you hear when people hear the word apprenticeship program, do you think that they really understand it? Or do you think that like like you, you thought it was one thing and it's really something different? Or at least was?
Tom Keena (02:53)
Well,
Most people need a class or like take shop class or whatever because the contractors are looking for you know they're they're betting on you to know enough math and to be able to do what they ask you to do and to have some skill sets with like some tools, some basic tools and
So I was lucky enough to get in there, so
Noah Hughes (03:14)
Gotcha. And for those of y'all who don't know, Ken actually teaches at the same college,
Ken Shek (03:18)
I teach
construction. We have we started with two classes, like a beginner construction class and then a kind of a second level, but then we've dialed it back because we're trying to build this program off the ground. But I structure it just like Tom does with his I mean he's built a very robust electrical program at Kalamazoo Valley where most of all of the big
electrical contractors around here, all of their apprentices go through that program. And I would say the majority of classwork is hands-on their wiring, learning actually how to wire things, not learning by the book. So that's how
Tom Keena (04:03)
Right.
Ken Shek (04:04)
we've structured my construction program as well. Like instead of just talking at these kids and having them read stuff.
We put tools in their hands and get them using the stuff. That way when they're on the job site, they look like they've done it before and that they're like, I don't go grab a screwdriver. Well, I don't I don't know what that is. They've used
Adam Kennard (04:24)
Right.
Ken Shek (04:25)
it a hundred to six hundred times
Tom Keena (04:27)
Right.
Ken Shek (04:29)
before they even get on the job site.
Noah Hughes (04:31)
So was your school on board with this? the hands on aspect,
where you teach?
Tom Keena (04:36)
Well, when I started it was probably about a quarter, you know, amount the amount of students that I have now. I probably have like 250 apprentices and like a hundred and fifty other people that are just taking it trying to get in an apprenticeship or they might be transfer students or taking it as an elective or just you know for the heck of it. so I've with about two hundred and fifty apprentices.
and about fifty contractors and some manufacturing facilities and there. It's it's really it's really taken off. So when we started, it was it was hands on but not nearly what it is now. So I went in there and I one of the first things I did was the my boss asked me, he said, Hey, what do you think of our program? And I was very honest. I said, Well, parts of it I had that were some of the parts that that they had set up, I said I had a better setup.
at the high school tech center. But other but overall it's better. And he said, I I don't want to hear he goes, I don't want to hear you ever say that again. What do you need? And I said, I need money and space. And that's like the biggest that's like the biggest problem with a lot of the places. They can't get the money or the funding and they can't get the space. They don't have the building, you know, actually they want to share it with somebody. Or they want to fill up space. So we
We had a a lot of contractors helping us and we designed some things that we wanted. They did it and they knew it was gonna help them because they're sending their students there. And then I had a great part-time staff and I had probably like twelve part-timers and then I had another full timer. He's since retired, but we're gonna have f four full timers and about four to six part-timers right now. COVID really changed a lot of things because we were
doing the lectures in the classes. So now what we did was since COVID we took a lot of them and put them online. read the the syllabus, they could read the class rules, they could all the things that were like chewing up time we can put online.
We're like Ken said, we're a tremendous amount of hands on. I mean, we actually have the stuff you would use in industry. We have the things that like one of our labs I know is on the journeyman's test for the state of Michigan. And it's an I didn't copy that because it was on this the state of Michigan test. I already had it in the program. And people came back and they're like, Hey Tom, lab six is on is is on the state test. And I'm like, good.
I mean so there's a lot of advisory committees guiding us and telling us, hey, we think you should put more code in there or 'cause there's theory, code, and hands on. You have to balance it out. And because the the state of Michigan test or the city test, if you're living in one of the citi one of the larger cities, is gonna be a code test, but it's gonna have some theory in that in there. But when they get on the job, they expect to have skills.
So they want them to have some sort of skill because you can teach people skills. And that's the thing. People they go, they start, it's like anything. They start and they go, I'm terrible at this. And we go, We didn't we we didn't expect you to be like a journeyman day one. We
Noah Hughes (07:52)
Yeah.
Tom Keena (07:53)
expected you to be coachable, have a good attitude, you know, listen to us and show up on time and all these things. And the contractors are investing in these students or these apprentices.
And as as future hoping that there'll be future journeymen and you know working with them on the job sites. So we we built a really nice program. We we have to hit a certain amount of hours so we set it so that the apprentices could go two classes a year. So they go two semesters a year for four years, and then that pretty much sets them up if they have their work hours, which you have to have eight thousand hours so
They have to have work hours on the job training and also schooling to do that. And then they're qualified for the journeymen's test. They can take the state of Michigan journeyman's test after that.
Noah Hughes (08:44)
so how as your success and everything like that, you have a ton of students and all of this. The do you attribute that to also having really good connections with the industry? Because it sounds like you have like great industry partners. You said you had advisory committees,
Has that been like a just a gradual build? Or how have you made a connection in the industry so well?
Tom Keena (09:04)
Okay, one thing one thing is that it's mandatory that we have to have an advisory board. who we who's on the advisory board is is up to us really. So I went to the largest contractors in the area and the ones that were hiring a lot of people and had a lot of people in industry to start, made made contact with them, talked with them, asked invited to be on our advisory board, and some of them did, some of them didn't, some of said or sent a representative, which was fine.
And then that way they can guide what we do and kind of double check what we do also. So we're very transparent. We walk them through the lab. We show them the labs. They can they can actually do a lab if they wanted to, but they can walk through the building, see what's going on, and give us some feedback. So we meet twice a year and they give us feedback and we'll we'll alter the program if necessary. There's state guidelines we have to hit also. So we'll tell them, you know, we have to do this for this reason, but like
One example is that one of the contractors was they were sending their students to too many classes, actually. And I told him, I said, look, you're you really only need these eight classes. They were requiring them to do like twelve. I said, You really only need them to do these eight classes. You can send them back for the other four if you want, but if it's a it's a contract with the state when you're an apprentice.
that you have to finish those classes and finish those hours before you take the journeyman's test. So I said you're kind of holding them hostage because they can't take the journeyman's test until they finish all those classes, which really are not required So we'll sit down with them and show them this. And we have an apprenticeship director who will go through all the hours and the paperwork and, you know, show them the right way to, you know, to sign up and everything.
Noah Hughes (10:49)
Yes, that's awesome.
Adam Kennard (10:49)
Is this
hi, I'm Adam. I'm late. I have
Tom Keena (10:51)
I am.
Adam Kennard (10:52)
the I have the youngest kids in the group, so they take priority. but is a lot of these tracks
Ken Shek (11:00)
We're we're not looking
excuses, Adam.
Adam Kennard (11:01)
I'm not familiar with like the the journeyman status and like
Tom Keena (11:04)
Hurry.
Adam Kennard (11:05)
becoming a master electrician, things like that. But
Tom Keena (11:07)
Sure.
Adam Kennard (11:08)
just curious, is it kind of both and like you could be a non union or a union journeyman,
Tom Keena (11:15)
Yeah. So the the requirements are through the state of Michigan. So they don't they don't get political with union or non union or anything. But you w how your trainings the school that you go to may like some some unions have their own schools. some contractors have their own non union contractors have their own schools. So they can do what they want. We're very we don't we're we're very neutral at the site. We're like, hey look, we're gonna train you to do this.
So that you can pass the journeyman's test after four years. And so they a lot of them are apprentices that are already on track to do that. Others, others get in there, and this is probably the biggest hurdle right here. Others will get in there and they say, Tom, I don't know anybody that's in electrical except you. I want to be an electrician. How do I break into the industry? That's probably the biggest hurdle that that we face and that they face. So we're addressing that with a
pre-apprenticeship program. So prior to this pre-apprenticeship program, what people would do is they would we would most of the contractors would say, we want you to take the residential wiring class and the applied electricity, which is theory. So the residential address is the hands-on and the code, and the applied addresses the theory, which is math-based. It's like a light physics really. And so then if they can pass those two, the contractor knows that they're
That they they are prepared to join an apprenticeship and that because the contractor is going to put a lot of money into them with tools, uniforms, all kinds of stuff. And so they want to make sure that they get somebody that's can do it, actually, not just says they can do it. They they they say they can prove that, hey, I had those two classes, they passed with an A or B, and they're like, okay, we'll we'll hire them and they're on the path. But getting into that is tough because
If sometimes you know market fluctuations, it's really good work and they hire a lot of people or they don't, you know, and then everybody's like, What do I do now? And you're like, Well, you're gonna have to just wait. So one of the best things you could do is like I had this student, it was a lady and she worked at at a a coffee shop, and she's like, Tom, I want to get into the trade. And I said, Well, you you want me to be totally honest with you? She goes, Yeah, I said.
quit the coffee shop. And she said, why? And I said, because it doesn't look to me like when you go to these contractors and you say I work at a coffee shop, they're not going to really take you serious. They're going to say, you you make coffee. You know, whereas if you if you said, hey, I work at like a Home Depot, Lowe's or something like that, even, and I volunteer for Habitat for Humanity on the weekends and I and I I work with whoever I can and I volunteer here and I volunteer there. That looks better.
So they're more apt to hire you then. And especially if you took like those two classes I was talking about, you're set up, you're you're totally set up to be hired.
Adam Kennard (14:20)
Yeah.
Tom Keena (14:21)
You're very, you're very attractive as an employee. And the contractors will look at you and they'll go, yeah, this is a serious person. They're actually doing all this stuff like volunteering when they don't have to. So we know they like the work.
Adam Kennard (14:37)
Right. They're putting themselves in a lane to to to be attractive. Right.
Tom Keena (14:39)
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Noah Hughes (14:44)
Do you all have a hard time basically finding instructors?
Tom Keena (14:48)
So finding instructors is tough.
as you guys know, being a contractor isn't s you know, you don't quit right at four thirty. If you still have to do something, you keep doing it. So a lot of them run into like time constraints where they're like, Hey, I'm still on the job, you know, I can't leave right now or, you know.
I've filled in to get started sometimes because they're like, I'm gonna be a half hour late. It's just how it is. a lot of them are making really good money, so teaching is not really necessary for them. it's not the the money isn't really why they're doing it. Usually they're doing it to give back or they they don't like like like I mentioned, I didn't like how the industry was teaching apprentices. I thought I thought we could develop a better system.
to your question about curriculum, a lot of it is already developed. Like you can find some really nice books out there. Like, for example, to teach motor control. I made a lab manual basically, and with my partner, I did part one, he did part two, and we paired it with a book that was already out there so
Adam Kennard (15:52)
Okay.
Tom Keena (15:52)
that it works really well because we're like, hey, we could beef this up a little bit more.
if we did this, this or this. And also in the area of the the country that you're talking about, wherever you are, sometimes you need specific things, you know, in there
Adam Kennard (16:08)
Yeah.
Tom Keena (16:09)
that other other areas don't really.
Adam Kennard (16:11)
I've just blown away just the the idea of like like building curriculum, teaching curriculum, like f refine tuning curriculum. I mean that that is laborious labors of love. just I mean that's that is what they are.
Tom Keena (16:29)
It's it's tough because you you know, I'll write a question and it seems obvious to me what the answer is, and I'll write
Adam Kennard (16:35)
Right.
Tom Keena (16:36)
a question and like three quarters of the class gets it wrong, and I'm like, Why did everybody get this one wrong? And I'll ask and they might say, I thought you meant this. And I'm like, the way I wrote the way I worded it was wrong. So going through each each question, so like we have a learning management system now, it's called Canvas, which is the online portion of most of
and it's very popular in the United States. And inside a canvas, you can take a test and you can run it through they can tell you what's wrong with your test. Or how many or the percentages of you know what which which question was missed the most, or you know what I'm saying? And then you can
Adam Kennard (17:15)
Yeah.
Tom Keena (17:15)
look at so it helps you and you can look at it and say.
You know, this question, the way I worded it is just terrible. And you can change it or whatever. And there's also a lot of PowerPoints and stuff out there, but people people usually don't wanna watch a PowerPoint. They usually they'll watch a YouTube. They'll watch a YouTube video for ten minutes. So a lot of my online stuff
I've taken maybe a ten minute like it looks like a YouTube video where I just stopped and showed them how to do something, like in my own house or somewhere else, and said, This is what this I've been walking through Home Depot and I I'm like, wow, nobody knows what this is. I'm just gonna video this box or whatever it is and explain how it works or this device or tool or whatever. And then you can slip those in in modules so they have like weekly modules to watch.
And that keeps them on track. And then that also leads them up to the the lab they're going to do. So I videoed all of the labs from prior classes and showed like the best lab. And it really helps too because when we're in the class, I'll tell them, hey, I need the best lab. I'm going to video the best lab and put it in Canvas for future classes. So people are like super proud. They're like, he videoed my lab.
You know, I know that that's my lab, you know, so it's like a it's almost like an award that they get. It's kind of funny.
Noah Hughes (18:43)
That's awesome. I feel like
Adam Kennard (18:44)
Yeah.
Noah Hughes (18:44)
I I wish I ever since I started
Tom Keena (18:45)
Yeah.
Noah Hughes (18:46)
teaching, I was trying to basically get videos and stuff like that and have access to say a student missed a day or say a student needed a refresher or anything like that. But that's difficult to to do. It's just difficult to like maintain all that stuff and and keep up with that.
Tom Keena (19:01)
Right.
Noah Hughes (19:02)
You do you have Instagram or anything that you post some of these videos on?
Tom Keena (19:05)
I don't. I leave it all in Canvas. so if somebody signs up for the class, I can take like my nephew of a has asked me, he was doing a job one time and he asked me something about a transformer and I said, Do you mind if I just send you a video that I made on it? It's like ten minutes long. 'Cause it's hard to explain it in ten minutes sometimes where I'm I might have dial I might have dialed it in and in a video.
I try and make
Adam Kennard (19:33)
Right.
Tom Keena (19:33)
them short so that people can watch little pieces of them if they want. So I just sent him the video and he's like, I get it. I understand.
Adam Kennard (19:41)
That's awesome.
Noah Hughes (19:41)
That's awesome.
And I think too, a lot of times there's there's tons of content online, but it's hard to filter through what's good and what's bad if you especially if you have no frame of reference.
Adam Kennard (19:52)
Right.
Noah Hughes (19:53)
yeah. So that's awesome.
Adam Kennard (19:55)
So what have you seen like student response wise as you've grown this program? 'Cause you said two hundred and fifty students or was it a bigger was there another zero?
Tom Keena (20:04)
About two hundred and fifty
apprentices and about three hundred and fifty, sometimes up to maybe even more, total students. what have I seen with with
Adam Kennard (20:14)
Yeah,
just like student interest, like th do they enjoy the hands on, this you know the whole like, you know, this
generation is the worst thing ever, they don't work, you know, things like that.
Tom Keena (20:26)
Well, you
So they have to build something when they go in there. I say, here's what we're gonna build. we're gonna start off in partners, then we're gonna everybody's gonna be independent. You can help each other, but you gotta build your own stuff. They'll ask me, some people will be like, Tom, can you come over here and show me how to do this? I'm like, sure. And I'll stand next to them and wire on a different board, and they're like, You're not gonna wire on my board? I go, mm-mm, you gotta wire your own board.
So everybody
Adam Kennard (20:52)
That's awesome.
Tom Keena (20:53)
has to wire their own stuff and then but we'll help them. You know what I mean? We'll help them when they're done. And when everybody's done, like say, say there's 20 people in the class and the first one's done, I'll grade that that lab and I'll say it's it's not quite right, fix a few things or it is good, you're done. Go ahead and take it down. And and then they're like, now they're apprentices, they worked all day and they're at school for like two, three hours. So they're like, I want to go home. Can I leave now?
I say if you can help somebody for 15 minutes, then you can go home. And I want you to help that person over there. And they're like, but I don't know them. And I'm like, I know. Go you need to introduce yourself to them. And they're like, now I've showed them how to introduce themselves to people, which seems ridiculous sometimes. But I'm like, go over there
and introduce, introduce yourself. So like by like halfway through the course, there's a lot of people that know know each other.
Because they're helping each other. They're like, I'll I'll help them. That's fine. That's you know, Joe or whatever. I I've helped them before, I'll go help them. So they'll stick around, they'll they'll get to know some people. And part of the part of the thing that people have to do in the apprenticeship is they don't think so, but they really want to know quite a few people in the trade because knowing people, one, it's just nicer. And two, it helps you helps you stay employed.
Like I say, if you're if your contractor goes out of business or gets bought out or whatever, you can call somebody else up and and say, Hey, I'm out of work. Remember me, I was in your class, and they're like, yeah. And they can vouch for you because they watched you in class. So they can say, this this this guy or gal is a really good really good worker. We really want to hire them. So you it kind of gives you a lot of credibility, possibly in the future, you know, for another job.
Noah Hughes (22:43)
The one thing that I want to basically you had mentioned early on that the problem with money and space, and that's something schools hear a lot of. What's
Tom Keena (22:53)
Yeah.
Noah Hughes (22:53)
the pitch to schools to say, Okay, let's give Tom, let's give Noah, Ken, Adam, let's give more space, let's give more money.
What's the pitch?
Tom Keena (23:02)
Well,
I think there's been a turn. I think like Mike Rowe has really helped us out and a few other people that have really just opened people's eyes to it. And I think a lot of people like twenty the last twenty years or so bought into the I gotta go to college and get a four year degree and they get out and they're like, I I really don't don't have the job I like. You know, and then but through college I, you know, wired houses or built
pole barns or whatever with my, you know, uncle or whatever. And they kind of just kind of, you know, end up working working with them or whatever. it's it's tough to change people's minds. it's but I think a lot of it is telling like like I think I told you I I think when we were recording I told you about my brother
Okay, so
my brother was a high school teacher for 30 years. He's a year younger than me. while I was going through my apprenticeship, he was going through college. So he was paying out money. I was making money. And by the time he graduated, I was a journeyman and became a master electrician. And about fifteen years later, he goes, You know what? He goes, Do you mind if I ask how much money you make?
And I guess no, don't mind, you know, and I told him and he's like, You have made more money as an electrician than I have made as a high school teacher for the last fifteen years. And I don't think people realize that the trades pay really well. If you're a good worker and if you're like got a really good attitude and committed and everything. And I don't
Ken Shek (24:41)
Be sure about time.
Tom Keena (24:43)
yeah, I don't think they they I don't think they see it as an option.
And I think Mike Rowe's bringing that out, and I think a lot of other people are bringing that out, and a lot of people are noticing it now. It's really hard to get that out front because I think they've been taught to go to go to college and get a four year degree, which most apprenticeships are in a college. Not all of them, but a lot of them are. So the first thing they're gonna do is probably you just go at a slower pace and more specific to your your trade, you know. So I think it's making a turn, but
We'll see.
Noah Hughes (25:21)
Yeah, I think you know, the sad thing is is I think it's kids of parents who are dealing with the financial burden, debt of school and everything like that, that are gonna see what their parents had to go through and, you know, search for alternative paths, which I think is gonna be tough, but it'll build resiliency, I'm sure, in these kids. And so, yeah. I definitely think that there's a change happening. Hopefully hopefully, you know, there's more people like you out there, Tom, that are building amazing programs.
Adam Kennard (25:51)
Yeah.
Noah Hughes (25:51)
This is this has been incredible. I would say, if you wanted to follow Tom and get these amazing Instagram videos, which you need an Instagram, because I would follow it.
Tom Keena (26:01)
Okay.
Noah Hughes (26:02)
And I did I checked out your program online before we got it, your lab and everything. basically what you had built was is is super cool to see. And I'm sure you probably have a lot of students that you've changed their lives. So that's that's definitely awesome. so thank you for being on.
Tom Keena (26:18)
Thank you. Thank you.
Noah Hughes (26:19)
I really appreciate it.
Adam Kennard (26:21)
Yeah.
Tom Keena (26:22)
Thanks for giving me the chance to talk about it.