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What if your company culture wasn’t just an HR buzzword but the secret weapon to scaling your business?
Welcome to Kan Talk Kulture, the podcast that dives deep into how remarkable company cultures are intentionally built and how they can transform your team, your business, and your bottom line.
Hosted by Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture and a passionate expert in people, culture, and leadership, this show is designed for business owners, CEOs, HR professionals, and anyone who believes that empowered people are the key to long-term success.
Each episode features real conversations with inspiring CEOs, business leaders, and culture champions who share how they’ve shaped their team environments alongside case studies, practical tips, and bold questions that challenge the status quo.
Whether you're looking to boost employee engagement, create a high-performance team, or align your people with your vision, this podcast will help you connect the dots between culture and growth.
At Kan Kulture, we believe in Kindness, Understanding, Learning, Trust, Uniqueness, Respect, and Evolving, and this podcast brings those values to life.
If you're ready to turn your team into your biggest brand ambassadors and create a workplace people love, this is the podcast for you.
Find out more at www.kankulture.com
Hi, I'm Kylie Anne Neal, founder of Kan Kulture, and welcome to Kan Talk Kulture. In this podcast, I sit down with some of Australia's most progressive founders and CEOs to explore the heart of their company cultures, what drives them, what they value, and what it's really like to work for the companies they lead.
You'll also find occasional episodes packed with practical HR insights to help you build s- safer, stronger, and more trusted workplaces. So whether you're a new team member getting to know your workplace, curious about creating remarkable company cultures, or just wanting to know more about implementing HR best practice, you're in the right place.
Let's dive in
Hello, and welcome to the KanTalk Kulture podcast. I'm Kylie Anne Neal, your host, and today I have a magnificent CEO to speak to. This CEO is full of energy, and from the first moment that we connected, we sent a couple of emails back and forth, and the energy that this woman puts in her email and communication, I was like, "I actually have a very professional crush on this woman."
She just oozes energy, and she has had an absolutely remarkable career, and I am so very honored for her to be joining me today for this podcast. So I would like to introduce you to Heather McLellan Johnson. Yay. Heather, welcome to the KanTalk Kulture- Thank you ... podcast.
Aw, thank you so much. Well done.
It's a real pleasure to have you here today.
Aw, thank you so much. I'm really privileged. It's lovely to see you.
So- Tell us about who Heather is. You've had- Mm-hmm ... a, a very commendable background. Oh, thank you. And the position that you're at at the moment as a CEO, you also sit on some boards- Mm-hmm ... and you also do quite a bit of volunteer work- Mm-hmm
and doing your MBA. So tell us who you are, Heather.
Uh, I think I'm a bit of a basket case really. I, um, I have, uh, just completed my AI- uh, A- AICD course, and so I'm able to put the G in front, graduated AICD, so that's a, that's a really big thing. It was very difficult, um, and yeah, something not taken lightly, so I'm really proud of that.
Um, I've-
Congratulations. Thank you. What is
AICD? So that's the Australian Institute of Company Directors.
Fantastic.
Yeah, so it's really, um, it's a big ask to kind of go in and, and do the actual exam. There's an exam and a, a two other parts of the exam, an assignment and whatnot, and, um, it's such a crucial part of being any director, um, in Australia, to make sure that you've tick-boxed everything- Mm-hmm
um, that you need to actually be on a board, um, and, uh, govern that board i- in a healthy manner.
Mm.
Um, uh, and then I'm two papers away from completing my MBA after all these years- Congratulations ... which is pretty great. Yeah, so putting that academic mark next to my name, so fingers crossed in October I should graduate.
Fantastic.
Um, so yeah, very proud. Even just to get to this point, I'm very proud.
Yes.
Yeah.
Well done.
Yeah.
Well done. Yeah. And what about, you know, you work in the medical- Mm ... industry.
Mm-hmm.
So tell us about your background- Yeah, sure ... in the medical industry.
Yeah, so I, uh, started 38 years ago, which means I'm started-
I started around 10, obviously, um, in the medical industry. I was in America for 10 years. I've got, uh, American roots. Then moved to Australia in '99 and, uh, just started tapping into Australian, um, medical, uh, primary care, so general practice. Um, and then, uh, moved to a couple of corporates. Um, then in one of the corporates I moved up to, uh, a state position.
I had, um, 29 medical centers and a breast cancer, um, operation in Sydney. Um, and then from there I just kind of voted with my feet out of corporate land- Mm-hmm ... and decided to get cracking in my own domain. So, um, am founder for, um, Medical On Miami, uh, then grew to Medical On Burleigh, and then have further grown to Medical On Robina, of course with medical directors as well.
Um, I, you know, definitely- am not medicine. I'm non-clinical Yeah Um, so of course, um, a founder with someone at Medical On Miami, and then just kind of grew from there.
Yeah, fantastic.
So yeah, and then- Yeah ... this time really wanting to do things the way that I saw was more healthy-
Mm-hmm ...
for not just the community at large, but also the community inside, the internal- Yes
and what makes us hopefully different to, um, other general practice operations. So- Fantastic ... yeah, that's pretty much- Fantastic ... where things come from.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and one thing that, um, is highlighted on your LinkedIn, also on the website of your businesses, is that very human-focused- Mm-hmm ... approach.
Yeah,
yeah.
This is a Kulture podcast. Mm. So talk me through the key elements when you went from your corporate role- Mm-hmm ... to become a founder and CEO- Mm-hmm ... of now three medical centers. Yeah. Talk to me about what that element of being human-centered meant to you then-
Yeah ...
and what has stayed with you- Yeah, okay
since the time. It's, uh, 2018, 2018 was when the first medical center-
Uh,
2018 ...
was opened, was it? That's
right. 2018. Yeah. Yeah, so- Pre-COVID. Yeah.
Who would've thought? Who would've thought? Good timing.
Yeah. In my career as not an owner, as not a founder- Mm ... um, I witnessed many things that made me think, "Oh, that could just be done better." Mm-hmm. Really. Like if I... You know, when you sort of sit around with a dream, "If I owned this, I'd be doing this," and then, you know, you get a bit self-righteous as well. You know, "If I owned this, none of this would ever happen."
But actually, as you kind of, I don't know, get older, you start really seeing things in patterns. You kind of, I kind of started to eke out, "No, really, if I own something, this is how I would have it." Um, and you know, my North Star, I, I think it's on my LinkedIn page, my North Star is humans first always.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because really, what else is there?
Mm.
You know? Like- Mm ... we might have some nice paint on the walls, some nice chairs, and quite honestly, that's something that I really love about opening up a practice, is how beautiful I can make it so the people in and out, you know, the, the, the wider community really gets- that feeling- Yes
to know that when they come in, that they're cared for- Yes ... and so do the staff and contractors in those rooms. They think, "Oh, this is a great place to spend 90% of my life." Yes. You know? Yes. So I want them to feel that way as well.
Yeah.
Um, so that is, like even in the furnishings and the colors, um, and you know, I did not do this alone.
Uh, you know, I've, I've had amazing directors that have assisted with colors and fabrics and, you know, all that sort of stuff. Um, but having that nor- north star of human first always for myself, those are the things that eke into the design of, of the place.
Yes.
And then non-material, we think about culture and practice and, you know, some of the things that I've seen out in the wide world, um, you know, th- they're not human first always.
Yeah.
So when I think about that, I'm always drawn to behavior.
Yes.
Um, so really the cornerstone of how I lead is human behavior and how that's translated into culture.
Yes.
And when we talk about human behavior, there can be no distinction between someone who's academically pursuant of their career and therefore holds some kind of degree with noms after their name, there can be no difference in their behavior to the cleaner- Yeah
that we have-
Mm-hmm ...
who does not have any noms after their name-
Mm ...
but is kind and caring-
Yes ...
you know, and respectful.
Yes.
Like, those things have to be synonymous with everyone in the business. And if they're not, they're not for us. Mm. They're just not for us. Mm. And- Mm ... you know, it's a really, it can be a really complicated and difficult conversation to have because I'm the big money maker.
Mm.
You know? Yeah. I bring in X amount of dollars into this company.
Mm.
I don't care.
Yes.
Yes. Because from that person's behavior-
Mm ...
look at attrition. Mm. Look at how much money it costs us-
Mm ...
to hire somebody else who's not gonna- Mm ... not gonna listen to that behavior.
Mm.
They're not gonna be in that room with that person.
Yes.
We start getting estrangement in the rooms. Mm.
Mm.
No one wants to go talk to them 'cause they're so-
Mm ...
disenfranchised. Mm. You know, whatever this is- Mm ... it is that's going on.
And I would assume that being medical, being medical practices, you're there to service the community. Mm-hmm. So, you know, that, that, uh, that community care at the essence of the way that the community feels when they walk through the door.
Mm.
And, uh, you know, 'cause I, I often see it, you get particular industries that are very technically able- Mm-hmm ... and the, the, the technical expertise- Mm-hmm ... is absolutely- Outstanding ... paramount. Like, it- Outstanding ... it needs to be outstanding.
Absolutely.
Um, but when you also need that human side and that behavioral element to be outstanding as well- Yeah, yeah
you are sometimes talking about very different skill sets. Yeah. And, you know, I think traditionally it was, you know, I remember working with, um, a whole bunch of engineers and, you know, there'd be two pathways, the really technical side of it- Mm-hmm ... and then the, uh, leadership and more h- human side, more team side of it.
Yeah. And that was with engineers, but when you're dealing with medical professionals, like the technical expertise and the- Mm-hmm ... behavioral expertise so that they can deal with community-
Mm-hmm ...
must be so on point.
Yeah, it, it really, really needs to be. And because when we think about community, we've got to think about internal community and external- Yes
community. So internal community would be all staff and contractors.
Mm.
And so the way that every person coming into the business- needs to fake-
Mm ...
act-
Mm ...
be easily, however it comes in, that behavior every single day-
Mm ...
needs to reflect in a healthy manner.
Mm.
Because in community, if we are cohesive in community- Yes
the internal community- Yes ... then we can do nothing but-
Yes ...
exemplify-
Yes ...
to the external community.
Yes.
And I'm not saying that people don't have a bad day. I often will come and, and just tell the crew-
Mm.
Mm ... "Hey, look, I'm having a rough day." Mm. Actually, yesterday was a perfect example. I messaged my crew and I said, "I'm struggling this morning."
Mm. "
I will be in as soon as I can." Mm. And you know, it was like 9:04. It wasn't, you know, 11:00. Um, "I'm struggling today," but they already knew I was in struggle.
Mm.
And there's no shame in that. Yeah. And that's really important. I'm in struggle, so I knew that I needed to keep to my office. Mm. I needed to do the things that I could do with good capacity only- Mm.
Yeah ... and probably not have a lot of conversations with people. Mm. I wasn't gonna be at my best. Mm.
Mm.
Um, I can fake it really, really well. Yeah. I can attempt to be at my best, but I'm actually not gonna be at my best. So they- Yes ... my crew is already aware of where I'm sitting when I come in.
Yes.
So I'm not gonna come in and go, "Oh, how come my damn coffee's not there?"
Mm.
You know, like that's totally inappropriate. But, you know, and get, and actually get your own damn coffee. I know. But yeah. Like at least I'm not gonna- Yeah ... be acting like that.
Yeah. You know? Yeah.
That kind of thing. Yeah.
And m- what, what mechanisms do you put around the team? Because if you have, uh, the clinical staff- Mm-hmm
you know, y- your, you have the ability to go, "Okay, I need to do office work. I need to do administration, and I need to like not engage because I need some focus time- Mm-hmm ... because that's what I need to do today." Mm-hmm. You know, there are staff within the medical centers who are very, uh, very customer-facing.
Yes.
You know, they, they need to be able to show up- Yeah ... with that, that safety- Yeah ... that trust and that care-
Yeah ...
for the time that they're at work.
Yeah. Yeah.
So are there particular mechanisms that you put in place within your practices that you think might be a little bit different to- Yeah ... other medical centers?
Yeah, definitely. So first of all, the 2IC is a watchdog, so they watch, um, they watch administration on floor, and when a particular administrator has had multiple calls that are poor behavior from, say, patients- Mm-hmm ... um, they need to go and get themselves a f- a 10-minute breather or a five-minute breather or just a walk around the block or something.
You know? Mm. So they're at liberty to say, "You need to go and have a pause." Mm. And then we can even do things like, "Hey, CEO, way in the back, uh, we need help on desk." And- Of course Yes You know, I, I never get called often, to be fair. Yes. I never get called often. But there's people even before me, um, my executive assistant, the COO, the, the, um, general manager, they'll jump out because everybody needs help.
It's a little bit more difficult when you have nursing- Mm ... um, you know, issues with nursing teams- Mm ... because, um, I can't swap out with a nurse.
Yes.
But what I could do, or anybody, um, clinic- uh, clerical, um, administrative, is we could do things like, "Can I get you... You know, while, while that nurse takes a, a breather, uh, what can I get you, Nurse?
What can I get, you know, how can I help, Nurse?" You know, we can do the non-clinical running- Yes ... or something that needed doing like that. So we've got little catch-alls like that.
Yeah,
amazing. Whether they take advantage of it or not, I don't monitor that. Yeah. Um, that's for the lead G- um- Yeah ... the lead nurse to- Yeah
to monitor.
Yeah.
Um, then of course with doctors we have little mini breaks, catch-up breaks.
You've actually built a culture in one of the most high pressure industries there is. Right. Mm-hmm Well done.
Um- I just
sit in my office
Well done Yeah, it's fine But what does that, what does that look like in your clinics? And, you know, from, from speaking with you and from the words that you use in your LinkedIn on the websites, like, you know, uh, as I said, I, I just absolutely love your energy and I-
Girl crush
I, I like total girl crush.
Like- Same. Same. Look at you go. HR, the most difficult industry in the world. Yes.
Ah. Yes. But what does that... I, I would assume that because of the way that you are and, you know, your energy and the people that you would attract into the organisation as well would sit within that appreciation of your energy with, uh, doing things a little bit different from a profession perspective.
Mm. Um, w- who are the type of people that you attract into- Mm ... your medical centers, and why do they work so well?
Mm. The type of GPs that we have coming into our center, centers to, um, to work are excellent at their clinical skills, but more importantly, like excellent at their clinical skills is kind of baseline.
Mm. Like you actually need to be great- Mm ... a great doctor. Mm. Like, I think that's evident- Mm ... um, to do with their degree. They've passed an incredible amount of exams that there's no way that they could become a fellow, you know, unless they hit those marks. So, you know, hats off to their academic journey.
Um, but what we really look for when we're interviewing is those behavioral nuanced- Mm-hmm ... inflections that they come in and chat about. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, for example, say a doctor wants to come in and they don't want to show their CV or if they don't want to- Let us know who might be a reference for them. A lot of GPs think you don't need a reference, I'm a GP, but it's really- Oh,
okay.
Yeah, that's not quite, it's not normal. Yeah. But it's really imperative- Yes ... because we need to know how you acted.
Mm.
Not that you didn't kill anyone.
Yes.
But how did you act?
Yes.
And we also wanna hear from clinic crew. Mm. We don't just wanna hear from their colleagues, right?
Mm.
Like peer-to-peer.
Mm.
People that appear quite excellent, right?
Mm. But, but how were you towards people who worked with you?
Mm.
Were you all over the place?
Mm.
Were you rude?
Mm.
Um-
Mm.
Were you snippy?
Mm.
You know? Um- Mm. Did you have tantrums?
Yeah.
You know? Like wh- how... Yeah, so we really wanna know about the behavioral, 'cause the behavioral stuff is, is so important that either you're bringing in a problem-
Mm
and signing an agreement with a problem, or you're bringing somebody that's so outstanding that you never want them to leave. Yes. And, you know, the wealth of their personality comes in-
Yes ...
and that permeates through the rest- Mm ... of the culture, and then the culture shifts and changes and grows.
Yes.
Those are the people that we're looking for.
It's not good enough to just go, "I'm a GP."
Mm.
It, it isn't.
Yeah.
It... You've got to have... And, and I don't mean 24/7 you've gotta be incredible.
Mm.
Um, we all have our bad days, as I have said, you know? Mm. Mm.
But,
um, being able to voice that and just go, "Having a rough day."
Yes.
Um, if anybody cancels, please don't add it in, you know?
Yes. Like, all of that kind of self-management-
Yes ...
I think is, is... Yeah. And then for, um, crew that come on board, um, medical administrators and, um, registered and endorsed nurses, uh, enrolled nurses, um, we wanna... That's exactly what we're looking for as well. You know, skills-wise, great. Tick box, tick box, tick box.
Um, but behavioral, that's what we're looking for. Yeah. Those are the clinical linchpins.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what doesn't work for your clinic?
Demanding, egocentric, the lack of politeness.
Mm.
The lack of kindness
Mm ...
even to themselves. Mm. You know, it's really important that someone's really kind to themselves.
Yes.
I'm having a rough day today.
Yes.
Before I got here, I'm having a rough day. Mm. I'm now gonna switch into medical administrator role
Mm ...
but the one that just keeps carrying the monkey on their back-
Mm ...
it just, it permeates the whole feeling of the whole center throughout that day. It really, they just need to be healthy reflectors.
Yep.
Yeah. It's, it's a difficult, it's a difficult subset of human be- well, actually, it is the majority. Yeah. It is the majority of human beings that I've encountered. They have that internal voice.
Mm.
They are self-reflective. Mm. Mm. Um, and, and some are incredibly so. Um, uh, when I think about a few, quite a few doctors I'm...
It's, uh... And, and, and crew, uh, you know, they're outstanding. Um- And, and the ones that aren't, they, yeah, they just, they, they're not here for longevity. They're just- Mm ... you know, they don't work out usually.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll share an experience- Mm ... that my partner actually had, uh, with my son when he was unwell.
And, um, it wasn't at one of your centers. Okay. But this was just, just an experience that we had within our family, and my partner took my son to the doctors, and the doctor, um, said to him, "Oh, I'm going to, um, give you... I'm gonna prescribe you," I don't... Um, antibiotics or whatever they were. Yeah. Um, "But make sure your son doesn't go around anybody that's pregnant."
Mm-hmm.
And my partner was like, "If you're prescribing something to me for my child that can't go around anybody that's pregnant, do you think I would give that to my child?" Good question, right? And it was a, a very... So he's come home, and we, we didn't give it to our child because we were like, "Why, why would we?"
Yeah. If this isn't safe for our child to be around someone that's pregnant-
Yeah ...
why would we give our child this course of medication? And you could tell that the medical practitioner was doing it, you know, by the book.
Yes.
But he didn't understand that he was talking to a father that was here with a young child.
Yes,
yes. God, I wonder what that was. I know. I don't even know what... And that's how non-clinical I am. I don't even know what that might be. Yeah.
Yeah. Um- And I don't, I don't know whether it was just the delivery, but it just sounded like the doctor- Scary. Very scary. Yeah. But it sounded like the doctor was, you know, probably, you know, just doing what his job was- Of course.
Absolutely ... which was, you know, to, uh, choose the right c- choose the right, uh, uh, prescription for the symptoms that we're presenting, and then providing the solution to it.
Mm.
Um, but it was kind of, you know, it just felt very, very kind of clinical and medical without that human community side to it. Mm-hmm.
If you're speaking to a father with a young child, talking about prescribing something and- that he can't be around pregnant people.
Yeah, wow.
Yeah. So, you know, I, it's, it's, it's that kind of, you know, technical mindset where that's over technical. Yes.
Yes.
And it's not, uh-
And thank God that doctor said that because actually it's true.
Like they have to- Yeah ... disclose those sorts of things, but- Yeah ... but yeah- Yeah ... in that context- Yeah ... yeah, I don't understand.
Yeah.
I, I don't understand. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. No. We didn't have, but we, we didn't give it to ourson. But we also didn't- But he's
well ...
we also d- Yeah ... didn't go back to that clinic- Sure
either because- Okay ... you know, it was kind of like not a, not a, it was just a, a quite a, um... It was quite a awkward- Mm ... it was quite a awkward conversation and it, it just felt like really disconnected from that community side to technical expertise. Mm, mm. You know? Yeah. There was just a massive disconnect there.
Look, at the clinic, you know, yes, there is your doctors and your nurses, but if we look at it from, you know, it's kind of the, the administration, you know, could almost be seen like the, the engine room- Mm ... to be, to be able to enable good doctors and good nurses to do what they do beautifully- Yeah ... for the community every day.
Yeah. Um, what types of things from a culture perspective for you as a leader- Mm-hmm ... for, as the CEO and- Mm-hmm ... leader, what... How would you describe your style, and how do you like to lead the team?
Mm. My style I think, I like to get on the same level as the person I'm spe- speaking to. So I'm not gonna come at someone and talk about governance and risk and, um, you know, if, if they have no c- you know, conversational parameters around that.
I'm not gonna do that because that's just... What are you talking about? I, you know, I'm, I really like to, yeah, I really like to be respectful.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I like everybody to understand that, how important they are.
Mm.
Like, every single piece of- Every department is intrinsic to how we run- Yes ... a nine-hour day- Yes
or a 10-hour day. Yes. Every single thing. Yes. Every single hour, how they turn up. So I like to make sure, and maybe I'm not good at it, I'm not sure, um, but I like people to know that they're welcome.
Mm.
You know, you are welcome into this company. Mm. You are welcome into my office. Yes. You are welcome to have an off-side conversation.
Yes.
Um, and they're also welcome to give me the bad news.
Yes.
Like, I got some bad news this morning. Uh, we, um, we got a, a one-star rating on, um, Google, and when I looked at that review, and I look at every review, when I looked at the review, I was like, "Ah," you know, actually we've fallen over in two spots that could have really helped the doctor execute their work.
Um, and so, you know, I had conversations with the right people. It's not their fault. We just need to lift that corner. Mm. We just need to go, "Ah, you know what? This would be better and this would be better."
Mm.
You know? So that's all. Like, we just, we're constantly finessing. Yeah. And I, and I just, I like to be able to have conversations where, "It's not your fault.
How can we be better?" And for them to know that there's no shame in-
Yes ...
trying to be better. Like-
Yes ...
shame is such a big conversation, right?
Yeah.
Such a big conversation.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, if you ever need to go to somebody and say, "Hey, this wasn't great," it's this item-
Mm ...
that we're discussing-
Mm
wasn't great.
Mm.
Not you- You are, not great ... are intrinsically a bad person-
Yes ...
you made this happen. Yes. That's not at all what I'm ever talking about.
Yes.
You know? That, that, those are two distinct... I, I just hope that people understand that is what I'm trying to say. And- Mm.
Mm ...
you know, this brings us to another thing as well, that there are a lot of people who have left our business, or hopefully there's not a lot of people, but in eight years, there'll, there will definitely be people that won't like us.
Mm. And, and I think that's actually quite healthy.
Yes.
Um, and usually when I think about the people who have left us, um-
While they believe that they... While they may believe that they are right in how they wanted something or believe they deserved something, it may not have been for the good of the whole.
Mm.
And when it's not for the good of the whole-
Mm ...
including one of the largest shareholders.
Mm.
Um, like if I do something that is not for the good of the whole, to me that's not good enough.
Mm.
So everybody has to have that mind thing. And that is often why people leave, because they wanted something- Mm ... we couldn't give it to them- Mm ... because it wasn't for the good of the whole.
Mm. Mm.
So yeah. Mm. If I can think of the main reason why we might have let people go or people might have left our business-
Mm
it generally comes down to that.
Mm.
You know? Mm. Like one of our, um, guiding principles is equity, and that's what I think about equity. It's not for the good of the whole.
Yes.
Um-
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's, you know, if I look at that from a HR perspective, it's quite, it, it can be quite a sensitive line-
Mm
sometimes.
Yeah.
Um, you know, and you think about employees within the workplace and, you know, the... I personally feel that, you know, sometimes employees, if they start to, if there's a bit of friction that starts to snowball for them either personally or professionally-
Mm-hmm ...
um, and then if they're not getting their needs met-
Mm-hmm
um, that's okay.
Yeah.
You know, I'm a big believer in know what your needs are-
Yeah ...
and know how to ask for them.
Yeah.
And that's our human right.
Yeah.
You know, and being able to be vulnerable, have a, have a growth mindset- Yeah ... not be egotistical- Yes ... you know, be empowered to show up as the version of your best self-
Yeah
every day, whatever that best self looks like- Yeah ... for that day. Yeah. You know, we were talking before we came on, that perfectly imperfect.
Yeah, that's
me. You know, and being able to, um, celebrate that- Mm ... and give space for the vulnerability, give space for, you know, you spoke about shame- Mm ... but give space to surface that exploration of shame- Mm
I think is a real nuance that you've spoken about- Yeah ... that a lot of organisations don't address, and they don't allow that space to have those conversations of, "This isn't sitting well with me, but I can't quite work out why." Yeah, that's right. You know? It's, it's like people need to be able to, like, get into the guts of their heart- Mm
and really explore things when there are frictions in the workplace. We're conditioned to behave in a certain way at work.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and shame in a traditional landscape-
Mm-hmm ...
has no place.
Yeah.
So, you know, the fact that you celebrate the exploration of shame-
Mm ...
I think is really, really powerful.
Mm.
Yeah, I mean, how do you get through- How do you get through that, um... You know, I think we're only as sick as our secrets, so how do you get through- Love it. How do you get through that shame?
Yeah.
You know? It s- it just-
Yeah ...
it, uh, hijacks us-
Yes ...
so often. "
We're only as sick as our secrets." Yeah. Yeah. I li- I love that.
Particularly coming from a CEO of three medical centers, that's fantastic. That's fantastic. Um, I wanna touch on something that we were talking about- Hmm ... a bit offline, and that's the, uh, the approach to neurodiversity- Hmm ... within your medical centers. Big topic. Yeah. Yeah. Bi- big topic and, you know, from a assessment perspective- Mm-hmm
you know, I, I see it in the schools with my son being in primary school. Hmm. Of course, yeah. And, you know, in adults as well, you see it, just the acceleration of- Mm-hmm ... uh, assessments and- Yeah ... namings of neurodiverse conditions.
Yeah.
Talk me through what you do within your medical ce- medical practices.
Yeah, so I had to really... We've got a couple of doctors that are really into no- neurodiversity, and they're just so learned.
Mm.
It's very hard to, um, put a time around me talking to them. Because I'm like, "Before you go-"
Yeah. "...
um, one more." Yes. "100 more questions. I just have 100 more questions." But what I understand from a non-clinical brain-
Yeah, yeah
is that people with neurodiversity walk through the world Just like people who are not neurodiverse, but they carry this insurmountable, invisible bag of thoughts, noise, weight.
Mm.
I'm not sure what's in the bag. It's probably different for everybody. Mm. But they carry it all day long.
Mm.
So while a non-neurodiverse person may be able to do a 100 meter sprint, um, well for me to be like 10 seconds or 15 sec- I don't know how long it's- It's, it's gonna be a long time.
I might need to have a coffee in between. A person with neurodiversity is also dragging behind this bag, right? Mm. With them all day long. Mm. And, and I mean all day, from like- Mm ... the moment their brain wakes up to the moment their brain goes to sleep.
Mm.
So they're dragging this bag along, and what, what I wanted to figure out As a CEO is if I have crew that are carrying and dragging along this bag and trying to integrate this into job performance-
Mm
as we see it right now- Mm ... how can we be better-
Mm ...
at assisting them?
Mm.
So I had this really great conversation with somebody recently who said that, and I s- uh, because, um, crew are starting to say, "Hey, I'm neurodiverse." Yes. "I just needed to let you know I'm neurodiverse." Yes. "I've just been diagnosed. I'm neuro diverse" And that's fantastic, 'cause how are we gonna know, right?
Yes. Like, they don't have to say that, but it's great that they're able to say that.
Yes.
Um, and you know, and I don't care if they're medicated or not medica- it's not my business, but I'm really proud of them to even walk down that journey if they're questioning.
Yes.
Um, so then when they, they come back and they say, "Hey, yeah."
Like, "Oh my God," you know? Give every bit of medication to, you know, like whatever. Some funny stories. But anyway, I had a, um, staff member come to me and say, "You know what I really need is at the end of conversations I need to regroup-
Mm ...
and I need you to tell me what we talked about in bullet point."
Mm.
"So we talked about X, Y and Z, and so and so is gonna be the carrier of that. That person is gonna be the person who executes," or it's ABC and I'm executing.
Yes.
You know, they need that drawback. Well, if that works for them, what the hell's wrong with putting that in conversations?
Yes. Yeah.
Of course. I'm more than happy, and everybody else, if they're happy to share that-
Mm
everybody else should do the same thing in kind.
Yes. "
Hey, Brian," the person's name, not Brian. "Hey, Brian, just to circle back, XYZ and Matilda..." There's no one called Matilda. "Matilda will be executing this."
Yeah. "
Are you happy with that?" Good.
Mm.
Done.
Mm.
Two seconds- Mm, mm ... makes a huge difference.
Mm.
They can take out a couple of those bricks, right?
Yeah. Out of their bag.
Yep.
And then we can evolve.
Yeah.
And like, I think that's just fantastic.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. I think neurodiversity within workplaces is something that is, uh, still very much being explored.
Mm.
Uh, you know, and I think the disclosure of neurodiversity within the organizations that I work with, you know, I think there, there's more and more employees that are, um, you know, very, um- very welcomed to disclose their neurodiversity.
Right. Um, but I think from organization's perspective, being able to, um, respond- Mm-hmm ... or being able to understand, it's not even about the modif- uh, you know, I wouldn't call them modifications- No, I don't think so ... or adjust- adjustments. Yeah. But being able to put accommodating work practices in place- Yeah
that are equal for everybody. Yeah. 'Cause you look at that example, you know, that's giving some, um, that would be beneficial, not to just those that are neurodiverse, but to the whole team. Absolutely. They'll be like, "Oh, yeah, we went on this conversation, and the discussion went from here to here to here." Oh, right.
"But where did, where did we get to?" Yeah. A, B, C.
Especially when you talk about things in design-
Yes ...
like, um, patient experience.
Mm.
Like, when we think about design of patient experience, and we have these big organic conversations, I'm frigging lost.
Yeah.
Let alone somebody who has a neurodiversity-
Yes ...
you know, like, phew.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, you know, maybe that can just be part of minute taking or something. Yes. Yeah. You know, even in those offside conversations-
Mm ...
just to make a mental note, this person needs recap, what's the big deal?
Mm.
What's the big deal?
Yes.
Really.
Yeah.
You know, and this is the landscape that's coming.
Yes,
absolutely. This... We're not going back to no diversity. So what I mean is we are not tolerating
neurodiversity. No. I
don't wanna be- Mm ... tolerating.
Mm.
I wanna be welcoming-
Yes ...
and inviting and involving.
Yes.
So, you know, gone are that... gone is that noise.
Yes.
You know? It's, it's actually a, quite similar to actual, like, racial diversity.
Mm.
We're not tolerating people- Mm ... from another race.
Mm. Mm.
We are welcoming. Welcoming,
yes.
Like, if you look at- Yes ... who's in our rooms, there are so many different cultures-
Yes ...
so many different colors.
Yes.
Can you imagine only looking at one color flower for the rest of your life?
Yeah.
How boring.
Yeah.
No.
Yeah.
We have amazing human beings from all different cultures. Yeah. Yeah. All different foods. Yeah. All different dance.
Yeah.
You know?
Diversity of experience- All different... Yes ... is what makes the richness. It does. Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah. So that's what we love.
Amazing. Yeah. Yeah, and I think with neurodiversity as well, we- welcoming, um- I, I wanna just kind of link it into, um, shame that we spoke about- Mm
earlier. Because, you know, I think before this, like, surgence of, um, acceptability and diagnosises of, particularly in adults, like adult ADHD, I don't know what the figures are, but it's been astronomical. It's pretty
massive. Yep.
Astronomical. Yeah. Um, but you know, being a little bit different or not feeling like they fit into traditional workplaces.
Yeah. And now, you know, neurodiversity is a lot more welcomed. Mm. Um, you know, I think from what I see though, you know, I have had some experiences with employees that are neurodiverse that have, um, expectations of workplaces that they haven't articulated.
Mm.
And I feel like, you know, it's a call-out for individuals who are neurodiverse to have that space to be, you know, it's okay, but we need to have a conversation about- Yeah
what your needs are and how you get your needs met in the workplace. Again, massive believer of that. Yeah. Um, without just, you know, kind of sitting back and going, "Well, my expectations are that you accommodate me," because neurodiversity, it does look different. Yeah. You know, from my experience- Yeah ... with that it does look different for everybody, and the way that a workplace accommodates it-
Yeah
would look different for every workplace. So- That's
exactly
right ... you know, I think it needs to be a really open conversation of, you know, w- what are your needs? Yeah. What do you need from us? What, what do we... You know, from a HR perspective, how can we accommodate the people practices?
That's exactly right.
You know, and how can we form people practices? Again, and sorry to use the word accommodating, it's not accommodating. How do we form the people practices that are inclusive of what our workplace is at the moment?
Yeah. I, I think I would disclose my own frailties-
Yes ...
and say, "I'm not equipped to understand this yet."
Yeah. "
But I try to be world-embracing-
Yes ...
so please tell me." You know? Yes. And like-
Yes ...
those care factors, actually, just the simple care factor.
Yes.
Um, I mean, it, it's such a It's such a nuanced thing, right? Like, you could have somebody s- that approaches it like, "Yeah, okay, so you have autism. What do you need?"
It's really diff- that's not a sentiment from the heart. Mm.
Mm.
It has to be a sentiment from the heart.
Yes. You know? Yeah, yeah.
Um, and
also I- You are, you are a human here in, in our workplace.
Yes.
How do we... What are, what are your needs?
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, and that's actually quite a simple question, right?
Yes.
You know, but it's got to... The asker has to have that firmly seated in their heart that they are actually asking authentically.
Yes.
You know, that's really- Yes ... quite pivotal.
Yes.
Um-
Yep ...
yeah, 'cause otherwise we're just gonna be greenwashing or whitewashing or whatever the washing- ... is today. We're gonna be diverse-washing.
Yes. Maybe that's the-
Yeah ...
you know, that's-
Yeah ...
there's no shift.
Yes.
And then what happens, it ends up being the people who have neurodiversity-
Mm ...
that have already been blindsided by culture saying, "Oh, you're just odd"
Mm.
Who do not f- who embed that shame.
Mm.
Who do not, uh, are not able to articulate-
Yes
"Hey, I'm a bit different."
Yes. "
Could you accommodate?" You know- Yes ... it's always gonna be from their voice.
Yes.
And why does it have to be? Yeah. If we already have the standard that we openly accept-
Mm ...
and are openly actually eager- Mm ... to learn-
Mm ...
well, we're almost limitless really.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know?
And from a leadership perspective, like, I could, like, really talk about this for a really long time because I think it's so important 'cause it does come down to that fundamental human centered. And you know, if I again speak, speak at it from a HR perspective- Mm ... you know, having onboarding, onboarding check-ins with people.
How are you going? Mm. You know, is, is the culture supporting you? Yeah. Is it what you expected? I'm so glad to- Are your expectations being met? ... see that you're back
for your
second day. What are
your needs?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thanks
for coming
back. Yeah, yeah. And it feeds through to, you know, performance reviews or one-on-one, like, check-ins.
Like, just checking in with that individual, neurodiverse or not. Yeah. Just, you know, are your needs being met- Yeah ... at this workplace? Yeah. Like, it's, it needs to be a regular conversation, but you know, sometimes leaders, um, can get busy or they can go, "Oh, I, I don't know. I know nothing about neurodiversity.
I'm not educated on it, so I'm just gonna leave it at the door." Mm-mm. That's not, it's not- Yeah, and that could be- ... it's not good leadership.
Yeah, and that could be a different kind of l- like a CEO Just trying to think. Uh, there can be CEOs who do not, are not in leadership.
Mm.
They speak the company line, but they're not in actual leadership.
I, I don't have-
Yes ...
a huge enough company to not be in some kind of leadership role.
I love that.
Yeah. I think, I've been in- Yeah ... big corporates though, where-
Yes ...
there is that disconnect, and I- Yep ... yeah, that's, that's- The
ivory castle, so to speak.
Yeah. Yeah. And, and while quite often I can actually look like I'm sitting in an ivory tower-
Yes
and sometimes I've even felt that way-
Yes ...
um, it really just does take me to get my ass out of my seat-
Yes ...
and go and- Yes ... have chats in rooms. It really- Yes ... is, you know.
But that's telling of your leadership style though. Mm. Because that's a choice. It is a choice. That is, that's a choice. It is a choice.
That's a choice that you make- Yeah ... regardless of size.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
yeah. Yeah. So if there was a CEO listening today-
Mm ...
that could take one thing and implement it into their workplace tomorrow-
Mm-hmm ...
to make culture better, what, what would you, what would you give as your one little nugget of- Mm ...
joy for someone that's
sitting in a CEO position?
Any CEO, big or small I think find your North Star
Mm-hmm.
Like mine is human first always. Yes. Find your North Star and make sure that your North Star includes a value you hold. Right.
What is your value?
So my value is that there must be justice.
Mm-hmm.
It's a big value for me.
Mm-hmm
Because in justice, there's equity.
Mm-hmm.
We are not the same. We're not cut from the same cloth. We don't come with the same baggage. But In equity, we lift others together So maybe m- maybe equity-
Mm-hmm ...
is my underpinning value.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. And along the same lines- Mm ... but if you had a new starter, somebody that was starting in the clinic this morning-
Mm-hmm
what would be your key message to them?
Yeah, so I've got this really great thing that I hold onto, and actually I was, um, I was blessed that I spat this, this story out to my sons and, um, together they created this perfect little... I was like, "Oh, my God, what did you say?" And I wrote it down, and this is something that, um, sits with me as well when I think about the businesses.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so I'll read it.
Okay.
Um, "We create holistic and welcoming spaces that serve communities by providing a unified approach," so that's all of the teams, no matter what category they're in, "that is innovative"-
Mm-hmm ...
we always try to be better-
Mm-hmm ... "
collaborative, respectful, and equitable."
Mm-hmm.
So for me, we could be much more innovative, but that's not equitable- Mm
because we don't have a million dollars for R&D today.
Mm.
You know, that kind of thing. Mm. So it's, it, you know, and, and perhaps where the money is better spent is in lifting the wage limit, you know- Mm ... the salaries that we're paying right now. Mm. Or, you know, who knows? Mm. Maybe we can offer more vacation times or- Mm
something like that. Mm. Like, you know, it's gotta be for the whole.
Yes.
Yeah. It's not all about company dividends.
Yeah.
You know? The, there's really low margins in general practice.
Yeah.
Company dividends are not what any... For medical centers, company dividends is not why people should enter the business.
Mm.
Um, you wanna make sure that there, it's runs, um, I wouldn't say lean, because you want those plush nuances, and they cost money.
Yeah.
But again, you're pushing for the whole.
Yes.
And I think that makes- The whole experience ... a big
difference. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful.
Yeah.
My final question- Mm
that I ask all of my guests-
Mm-hmm ...
if your, uh, medical clinics were a song-
A song, okay ...
and let's think of it as the group.
Okay.
If it were a song- Mm-hmm ... what would it be, and why?
The song would be, and you're, you're gonna have to listen to the lyrics, but also the tone. So I really like tone and words and things that are tactile.
But anyway, the song would be Beautiful- "Beautiful" by Snoop Dogg. "
Beautiful" by Snoop Dogg. Yeah. And what's a lyric that stands out for you in that song? "
Beautiful, I just want you to know you're my favorite girl."
Oh,
yes. So that's what I think about, like every center is my favorite. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And every person, whether they're a girl or boy, it doesn't matter.
Yeah.
But every person, I think, uh, has got some special quality. And, you know, I don't get along with everybody. People don't like me. Um, that's quite normal. It's completely normal. Um, but yeah, I, I like to try and find some sparkling gem.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. And
in the whole company, I think you're my favorite girl.
That's
beautiful. That's beautiful. Aw. Thank you so much, Heather. Thank you. Well, I, I like you, I love you. As I said, professional crush. I think you've got a absolutely dynamic energy about you. Aw. That's so kind. And, you know, I really do wish you and the team all, all the best.
Thank you.
All the best.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you. And thank you for joining the KanTalk Culture episode today. Um, it's been a great one. It has. I feel like we're, we've taken a few twists and turns, but it's been, um, a really amazing conversation. And, uh, if anyo- any of you would like to get in touch with me from a HR perspective or get, uh, in touch with, uh, Heather, you're very welcome to do so.
You can contact me by looking at the kankulture.com website, or you can contact Heather by...
Uh, by the HMS Medical Group, uh, website.
Fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. Fantastic. Yeah. Okay. Uh, thank you for joining us, and we'll see you in the next episode. Thanks for joining me on KanTalk Culture. I'm Kylie Anne Neil.
I hope today's episode gave you a clearer view into the values driving your workplace or sparked new ideas about building a remarkable company culture. If you're a founder or CEO interested in sharing your culture story, or if you're looking to build a safer, stronger, and more trusted workplace, let's connect.
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