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This podcast and community breaks the silence, shame, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma and helps you embrace your God-given sexuality with courage compassion and connection. People just like you share their stories of recovery and forgiveness and experts teach principles, share insights, and provide real tools to help you rebuild trust and develop healthy sexuality. Ask your questions anonymously and expert therapist, Rachel Denton, will answer them and discuss practical tools to help and gain insight as to how ecclesiastical leaders can play an effective and powerful role in your healing. Join Crishelle Simons as she breaks the silence and together we can create a culture of courage, compassion, and connection.
This podcast is brought to you by Reach 10. Reach 10 is a non-profit with a mission to educate and help young adults overcome the effects of pornography and betrayal trauma and create healthy relationships with themselves and others.
Join the community at @breakingthesilence_reach10 or visit reach10.org.
We share these views to open the dialogue and educate on these tough issues and to create a healthier culture of sexuality. The opinions and views shared by the host or guests do not constitute as professional advice or services and do not necessarily reflect the views of Reach 10, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of any statements you hear. Reach 10 is not responsible for your use of information heard in this podcast. We keep learning, and invite you to join us as we build a more open, compassionate, and courageous culture.
2.16 How can I overcome the guilt and shame of using porn?
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Crishelle: [00:00:00] I'm so glad you're here. If you are listening to this, you or someone you love has probably felt the pain of starting over after a relapse with pornography. You've tried willpower, porn blockers, working with church leaders, and nothing seems to stick. If that's you, Relay is a great way to do recovery differently.
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I was blown away by the unique tools they have. Use the link in our show notes to try Relay for free and see how it helps you recover differently.
You're listening to Breaking the Silence, a podcast by Reach10, where we are breaking the shame, [00:01:00] silence, and fear that often surrounds sexuality, unwanted pornography use, and betrayal trauma, and helping you embrace your God given sexuality with courage, compassion, and connection. I'm your host, Chrishell Simons.
Welcome back listeners. It's so great to be back with you for our last episode of season two. I'm stoked about this episode, first of all, it's episode 99, which is a big deal. That means when season three comes out in a couple of months, we're going to be starting with episode 100 and it is going to be incredible. I can't wait, season three is going to be packed full of goodness.
We have some big plans. We have come so far with this podcast, we've covered so many different topics and different aspects of healthy sexuality. Overcoming pornography in betrayal, trauma and developing healthy and beautiful relationships. I love [00:02:00] breaking the silence. Primarily because the space is where you can come to learn and grow. And to develop the relationships in life that you really want to have. I hope that you come to this podcast and leave feeling more hope, peace, and assurance that a everything's going to be okay. And B you are not alone and you can do this. Today's episode is nothing short of. Awesome. We are back with Rachel Denton in our ASCA therapist series. And we are going to be answering a question that was submitted in our form. I am so grateful for every question that has ever been submitted. We've gotten to some of them and there's some really good ones that we'll get to in later seasons. The form is always available and open to anyone who wants to submit a question to have answered in this series.
The question that we're answering today is how to overcome the sense of [00:03:00] guilt after watching pornography and masturbating for nearly a decade. Is there any scientific proof that the negative effects of pornography on brain and body in general can be fully reversed after the recovery process. I am 25 years old and sometimes think I could have been much better in social skills.
Had I not watch porn for so long?
I love this question. I appreciate how honest and real this question is. And I'm so excited to hear your thoughts on it. Rachel. But before we jump into the question, maybe just tell us a little bit about yourself for our new listeners.
Rachel: Yeah, no problem. I'm Rachel Denton. I have a master's degree in social work and and currently a licensed clinical social worker, which means I have a private practice. And so I work with clients individually and in groups, and I really, really love that work. I. Also have been working in this area of pornography recovery for, oh man [00:04:00] honestly, probably coming up on a decade now.
I think I got involved back in 2014, I'd say.
This is something that I care a lot about and have I think just a lot of compassion and understanding for, and so I'm grateful to be here.
Crishelle: Thanks for sharing that. So let's maybe focus on the first part of this question.
The first question. Because he asked two questions. And the first question is, how to overcome the sense of guilt after watching porn and masturbating for nearly a decade? And I want to add shame in there too, because, and maybe we can tease guilt and shame apart, but I imagine that shame is a big part of this experience for this person.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: What are your initial thoughts on that?
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I think that There's a lot of conversation about guilt and shame. And so I won't spend too much time on this just because my guess is that there are, there's a lot of content already out there between the difference of of guilt and shame, but just to like really briefly [00:05:00] explain the difference between the two Shame is when we do something, whether it's like a mistake we make or something we do that we feel like we want to hide from other people, maybe even hide from ourselves. We don't want to admit that something that we did. And it's interesting because shame is a, a feeling, emotion that most of us as kids were not, or it wasn't really talked to us.
So, you know I didn't have my parents say like, Ooh, I've noticed that you've really withdrawn. I've noticed that you've gotten really quiet. I've noticed that maybe your face flushed. It looks like you may be experiencing shame, but there just wasn't a word for that. And what's interesting about it is that a lot of times shame wants makes us not only shut down, but really withdraw from other people.
And so it's really this I actually am quite fascinated by shame because it's very sneaky in the way that it shows up where it's saying you are a bad [00:06:00] person because you did this thing and not only are you a bad person, but for your survival, no one can know about this. Because if someone knew, then they, somehow you wouldn't be loved.
You wouldn't be valuable to this group of people. And maybe you're not worthy or whatever the message is that shame wants to share. And so. Really for most people, when they feel shame, it's, it's their way of trying to stay in the group, understandably. I mean, we, we can't function alone. We can't survive alone.
So when we feel shame it's hard to recognize because a lot of times. Like I said, we didn't it wasn't taught to us. So it's hard to recognize, but also it's such like a, a hiding feeling. We want to hide. We want to, and then we also want to do something to make us not feel the shame. So a lot of people have different behaviors they do when they're experiencing shame that will help them not feel the shame, if that makes sense.
So, yeah.
Crishelle: It makes me want to go back and listen to [00:07:00] your, our last episode about how to change and like, noticing how our body's feeling again, to remind myself of all those incredible skills. Because I can imagine that there's shame in my life that I don't even know.
Rachel: Absolutely.
Yeah.
Crishelle: I would tune into my body and like tune into my experience, I'd be like, Oh wow, this is just shame.
I'm just trying to hide. That's why I want to run, but that's why I'm doing this behavior again. So that is, that is a really, I really love that discussion on shame and very fascinating. Also, I love that you mentioned that, yeah, we didn't have a word for it. It wasn't really taught to us. Growing up I would say like that shame didn't really even enter the equation until Probably Brene Brown really put it on the on the map for most people and that was not that long ago and I feel like it's not even Yeah, like in parenting it probably still hasn't made it to like how can we teach our children to [00:08:00] identify shame?
And to move through it in healthy ways
Rachel: Yeah. Well, and to get into this a little bit more and, and this may lead to some of what this person is asking is that when you most of the things that we feel a lot of shame around started when we were children or teenagers. And the reason for that is, is because. Kids and teenagers don't have the ability quite yet to see things from other people's perspective.
So I have this really vivid memory of taking this glass of milk into the living room when I was I don't know, probably six or seven. And I spilled it all over the carpet and my mom comes in. Clearly she's way frustrated and she snaps at me like, Rachel, I told you to not bring the milk in. And so because I didn't have the brain function or the brain ability yet to see things from my mom's perspective, I couldn't say like, Whoa, mom, I totally get that.
That's frustrating. I spilled the milk and I will clean it up. But this is a really big reaction to something that [00:09:00] I did. Is there something going on for you? Right. Like I didn't have that, that ability yet to like separate that yet. When in reality, my mom may have just been frustrated by other things I've been building up that day or things I just wasn't aware of that had nothing to do with me.
So because I didn't have that skill yet, the only thing that was left for me to do as a child. And my very egocentral world, egocentric world was to say like, Oh, it was because I'm a bad kid. And that that's the only, that was the only sense my brain could make of it. So then let's say the next day I go to school and my teacher snaps at something that I do, my brain goes, Oh, it's because I'm a bad kid.
And this, this then starts to become this in this inner core belief that I'm a bad person or that I disappoint other people. Or that I'm not lovable or whatever it may be. So we all, every single person on this planet has shame points. We all do the, the the tricky part is because [00:10:00] they started in childhood, even though as adults, we have the ability to, to see things from other perspectives doesn't mean that we can see the shame areas from other perspectives, because we're really stuck in this, like this really young, immature child.
child egocentric belief of it's because it's my fault. And again, we all have this. And so it's not unique to somebody who looks at pornography. We just all have it around different areas of our life,
Crishelle: Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, I was just even thinking about the conversation I had with my therapist and I was like, oh man, wow, yep. I imagine I can actually now identify, there's a lot of shame,
Rachel: right? Yeah.
Crishelle: and, and shift and. Show up in a role different than I have my entire life and yeah, wow, like in my little heart, it's good.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: And, and what I think is what I think is beautiful about that and like also part of me of all your sharing that I was like, oh man, I've already messed up my [00:11:00] kids. Right, well, and what I think is like, I think that was literally Adam and Eve's first. The thing, too, is they hid from God, right? They found themselves naked and then they, and Satan told them to go hide, right?
So, like, you haven't messed up your kids. You're not messed up.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: It's totally okay, and I think it's, probably has a beautiful purpose in helping us come out of hiding and to find the Savior.
Rachel: I think that that point about Adam and Eve is interesting one, because at least in my opinion, the, the, the shame, shame is, or was the fall. I mean, it caused us to hide from God and hiding from ourselves. And so I want to say this. And to some extent to normalize shame I think it really is just part of being a human on this planet.
So I think our job [00:12:00] is no matter whether it's, we're struggling with pornography or like any area that, that we are feeling shame around of choices that we may have made or are making or things that we have done that it's really, really. important. And again, to answer this person's question is how to overcome the sense of guilt or shame.
The very first thing is to recognize what does shame, how does shame show up for me? And the way I think that is best to do this is going to be semantically. So what does shame feel like inside of my body? And so. For me, when I think about times in my life when I, when I have felt shame I get this like clench in my stomach.
My, my cheeks will flush and I'll get this. Like I, I literally feel my body kind of like curling and. self. So I'll notice that my shoulders will come in. It's almost like I'm trying to make myself a little smaller. And, and to me, that's going to be a clear indication, even though maybe logically I'm not recognizing I'm feeling shame.
Then my body is telling me like, Ooh, we need to get smaller [00:13:00] here. We need to try to hide. And so I think, I think that's a really good first step is like, okay, think about a time recently I have felt shame. What did that feel like inside my body? What were the actual symptoms that I saw or felt that how my body manifested it?
Another way to identify shame is if it's, if it's a little challenging to connect with a body. Another way may be to, okay, so what are my typical urges or behaviors I do when I'm feeling shame? So, is that, do I tend to just like go to social media and just like scroll on Instagram? Do I find myself actually physically withdrawing from other people?
Do I find myself getting really short and snappy? Some people get really angry and start to blame other people. So it's trying to find what are my behaviors. And if I can't identify what's going on in my body, when I'm feeling shame, it's really this idea of naming it to taming it. So if I can't understand that what I'm feeling or experiencing is shame, then it's [00:14:00] challenging to move beyond that.
Crishelle: Yeah. I think that's really fascinating. In fact, I was talking to my toddler about that today, just like, and okay, what you're feeling is frustration. And it was like, after she'd thrown like this huge fit and then she'd like calmed herself down and we were just processing like, Hey, I'm so proud of you. You were able to calm down and, and, and feel the feeling. It's important to recognize that it, that you felt upset and that you were disappointed that Your water bottle wasn't the color that you wanted it to be. And, we need, part of growing up is learning how to express that in a way that's not harmful to you or to others. And, and again, like, she's three, so, I was like, it's probably not, like, the best conversation ever. But at the same time, it was really helpful for me to say that out loud to her, because it helped me to remember that it's okay, that she's learning that. That it's like, I don't need to expect [00:15:00] her to not throw a fit.
But rather, that's what we're, that's what we're going for in teaching her. But then, it was a good reminder to myself that sometimes I'm a three year old. Like, sometimes I don't respond great. And, and I go back to those patterns and those behaviors that I picked up as a, as a three year old. And as, as a child.
And if I can name the emotion, and if I can give it space to To feel I can then I can then let it move through me as opposed to getting stuck and going back into the patterns that In a lot of ways, they're creating more and more shame.
Rachel: Right. Absolutely. Yeah, it definitely becomes a cycle when we feel shame and then we do behaviors that make us feel more shame. And, and if we're talking about specifically pornography, it makes a lot of sense that it becomes this interesting cycle, which is, you know, there, there may be a feeling of shame, which is like, I'm not worthy.
Or if [00:16:00] people knew these things about me, they wouldn't. They wouldn't want me around. And then that leads to a way of like, I don't want to feel this anymore. I know it's going to help pornography. And then that just leads to the cycle of shame. So especially because we have a culture where we just don't want to talk about pornography.
I mean, I can't think of anyone who's ever done the pulpit and who said like. This is something I struggle with, right? We're just very secretive and private and quiet about it. And that may, you know, there may be some good from that, but I think an issue with that is that it leads to this really this like really secretive and kind of can easily funnel into shame because we're generally quiet about it already.
I think a lot of times parents feel uncomfortable talking about it. And so it's just this overall message of, we just do not talk about it. And if you are dealing with this, please deal with it quietly and don't cause too much of a ruckus about it. And then we'll move on. And again, often that can be the recipe for more shame.
That's [00:17:00] awesome. Yeah.
Hmm.
Crishelle: yeah. In fact, as you said that, the first time ever in my life, and I, you know, attended a lot of sacrament meetings, but it was this summer, someone got up and shared, like, I've struggled with porn. And I was like, what? Like, immediately I started listening. I was like I was like, we gotta listen to this talk all the way.
I was like, I was blown away at this, at this man's courage. And I, I was like, wow. How liberating. How incredibly liberating that was. And I, I didn't follow up with him. I hope it was for him. I imagine it was but that was my husband and I talked about it after. And I was just like, can you imagine like what, how liberating would it have been for you as a teenager to hear that? , what would that have felt like for you? And , for me, that would have been so refreshing to hear that other people struggled with it and not just my dad. [00:18:00] You know, , to be , oh my gosh, we have something in common! , I can forgive other, , I, I can move past, , other people have struggled with this, not just my father, right?
And I just thought that was so, so incredibly Not just cool, but just powerful and I don't think I don't think everyone's in a place to get up and share that in a second when you talk that's not what I I'm saying here, but I as part of the reason we named this podcast breaking the silence is because I want To help people break the silence and to break out of the shame cycle that comes from staying silent and staying hidden and, and staying on that, that path that just cycles and keeps you trapped.
When we have the courage to, to break that silence and to open up, we're met with incredible light and healing and, and connection on [00:19:00] the other side. And, and so yeah, that's, that's why we named this podcast Breaking the Silence. That's why we keep talking about this, because you do not have to be stuck. in your shame cycles.
You do not have to be stuck and believe that you're like, yes, there might be parts of you that feel very broken and hurt and lost and like you want to hide, but it doesn't always have to be that way.
Rachel: Yeah. You know, it's really interesting as you're saying that it's making me think of this idea that we expect perfection from ourselves. I think in a lot of ways of, I can't tolerate the humanness in me and that I'm not okay unless there is no humanness left. And it's interesting because it, it makes me, we all do this, but what's, it's interesting to me about it is what we're really saying is like, I am above the human [00:20:00] condition, like I am above Adam and Eve because I shouldn't feel broken. I shouldn't feel not worthy. I shouldn't feel not loved. I mean, we all do. And not to say that it's like a good thing or something that we should just settle down and be okay with, but I think this, this idea of, it's almost like this common humanity idea of being like, look, even if, even if what you're struggling with is not pornography, you can relate to the shame aspect of what I'm talking about.
And there are times I feel like I'm not lovable. I feel like I'm not. I'm not going to be accepted. And every person in that room, if they're being honest, is going to nod and say me too. So I think, I think that when we, when we really approach our struggles from this idea of of. This is, this is kind of just how do I want to say this?
When we approach this, like almost like a depersonalization [00:21:00] from it a little bit of saying like, this struggle is not me. I mean, it's, it's a source of shame for me. Absolutely. It's not me as a person. And. Who I am, you know, pornography maybe doesn't align with my set of values. It doesn't align with the way I'm wanting to live with my, live my life.
And so that's something that I'd like to look at, but it doesn't mean that it's me. It doesn't mean this is, this is who I am as a person. I think the way that we. We do that because really what we're talking about is moving the shame into a sense of guilt because guilt is actually very pro social behavior.
You know, really what we're saying is, is like, I don't I don't think the way that I just responded to my friend or my neighbor or this action I did aligns with. Who I want to be. And okay, like that doesn't make me a bad person. It just means this is something I'm needing to work on and to change.
And really what's interesting about that is [00:22:00] stepping back from it a little. a little bit in that way, I think is the reason why it's the opposite of shame is a, it's just, it's acknowledging it out loud. Like this is something that I did. aNd I recognize it may have hurt other people, or it may have impacted other people.
And this is something I'd like to change, but like, even the, even that. The way of talking about that just feels so much more open, right? It's like, yep, this doesn't impact who I am. And so it's hard though, to make that switch. Cause I think we talk about like, well, don't feel shame, feel guilt. And then, you know, but it's, it's hard to do that.
It's hard to really move into that space of feeling guilt about something rather than shame. And I think that the way to do that really is, and this is going to sound so cliche, but it, it really, I believe is through. Being compassionate to ourselves and I know that there are a lot of maybe reasons why we feel like we shouldn't be compassionate to ourselves.
I mean, a couple I can think [00:23:00] of is maybe we're afraid if I'm compassionate to myself, then it will just be this. This green go ahead card in my mind where I'm like, well, I understand why you did it. And so go ahead. We get it. But there's actually a lot of research that's been done around self compassion and they find that the more self compassionate someone can be, the it's actually the opposite happens. It feels more from it. We really move into that space of guilt where it's depersonalizing from the feeling of I'm not enough or I won't be loved, but it helps switch into the space of like, okay, I made a mistake and I'd like to, I'd like to do better, but it doesn't impact who I am as a person. So we can talk more about what that self compassion looks like, how to get to that space.
But I think that that's incredibly important.
Crishelle: Yeah, and provides a ton of hope.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: I I love, I love that. And I love that there's been a ton of research done on it too. [00:24:00] Like how great to know that not only is that is that like a valid skill, but it's, it's a researched and. Like a, a real thing that can help us. So what does that look like? How can we move from this, I want to hide, I want to disappear, I want to be buried under a million rocks.
I mean, any version of whatever the shame feels like in this moment to compassion. I imagine that this will get easier as you practice it, and it will probably be hard at first. What does that look like?
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm glad you said that because I think that most of us if we're talking about self compassion as a muscle have incredibly weak muscles, because again, generally this wasn't something that was modeled to us. You know, I didn't like watch my parents say like, Oh man, feeling kind of down.
And you know, but I really understand why I did what I did or like, I just didn't, I didn't see it modeled. [00:25:00] And so it's hard to know what self compassion. Really sounds like, but I think that there's a couple of key elements and actually we talked about some of them. The first thing is this idea of mindfulness.
So that's being able to check in. What does shame feel like? What, what does this look like for me? Like if we went through like, what does shame sound like? What do I say when I'm feeling shame? What does sound, what does shame feel like inside of my body? What does shame look like? What am I doing?
Right? These are the ways you can identify when you're feeling shame. What's interesting is I think that it, it can be helpful. It well, it's hard to do this in real time, right? Like when we're in the midst of feeling shame, it's really hard to pull out enough to do this. And so especially at first of, of.
Practicing self compassion. So I think one of the things I generally recommend when beginning this practice of self compassion is to find time, whether it's at the end of. Each evening, or maybe once a week, if that's what's the time that's [00:26:00] available to you, where you find the time to say like, okay, when was a time today or a time this week that I know I was feeling shame?
And what did that feel like inside of my body? Like, can I, can I like really reconnect with that moment and
Crishelle: okay, so can you help us maybe understand, like, the step by step of how to move, how to move from shame, when we're feeling that shame and we want to hide, how to move to self compassion. And I imagine, like all things, it will get easier with time and be very hard initially.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, we've talked a little bit about what this process may look like, but the first thing I'd say is this idea of being able to identify when you are feeling shame. So whether it's shame about looking at pornography, feeling urge to look at pornography or really about anything it's being able to identify what does this feel like inside of my body?[00:27:00]
Or what does this look like for me? And what's interesting about shame, because it really urges us to shut down, to withdraw. It's actually, like I said before, really challenging to recognize when we're feeling shame. So this can be hard to do in real time. So just like when we're talking about, you know, building a muscle, I would start with like I would start trying to do this in times when we're actually not feeling shame.
So this may be having some sort of practice where there's this either a daily or weekly how or however often check in of when was there a time today or this week where I know looking back, that was feeling shame. And if I can identify when that was, can I identify what that feel like inside my body?
What, what were the, the feelings of, you know, what did it look like? What were the what, what were the things I actually did? What did it sound like? What were the things that I said when I was feeling shame? What did it feel like? What [00:28:00] did it feel like inside of my body and really connecting with it in that way?
Sometimes I. This sounds kind of odd, but sometimes for me, it's really helpful to almost picture shame kind of like inside out, you know, if the movie inside out. So when you think about that movie, if you've seen it, there's all these little characters in this girl's mind where there's the anger and disgust and joy and sadness.
So if we could add another one in there of shame. The question might be, okay, what would this, what would this look like? If I had to describe what my shame part looks like. And the reason I like to do that is because it helps me to be able to connect with it while not being overwhelmed by it.
So when I can kind of get in my mind's eye, whether it's like, it actually looks like something I can see, or if it's just like a color, or if it's a shape or whatever it shows up as, it becomes easier then to interact with it. So then, then we can lean into the area [00:29:00] of like, okay, high shame. I know that you are here for a reason.
You are so concerned about me staying a part of this group. You're so concerned that I don't get kicked out of this tribe, or you're very concerned that I feel. Connected to other people and thank you. I see how hard you're working to make me feel and be safe. And, and the reason why I think this is really helpful is because it, it can then bring in this sense of like this, like compassion piece for the shame part of us, right?
This part, like, Oh, you're working so hard, you know, and I can see that I can see that you really, really want to keep me safe and you've been working hard for a really, really long time. And when we can bring this like compassion to this shame part of ourselves, that's I think what, what really starts to kind of like pull away from it.
It's kind of like sometimes I picture, it's like our mind [00:30:00] is this huge house and we all have our shame room. This room that we keep locked and we don't even go near it. We just pretend like that room's not there. This practice though of this mindfulness and then the self kindness or compassion is almost like going into that room and shining a light on it, you know, and saying like, Oh, I see you, you know, I see what you're trying to do.
I see how helpful you're trying to be. aNd and I, and I see why I made the choices I did. I see why I looked at pornography today. I get it. Shame is hard to feel. I understand why I did that. And And it doesn't align with how I want to be. It doesn't align with who I want to be. And I think just really that element of bringing that in is can be really powerful.
Now, if that feels a little too challenging to identify with shame that way, which I think for some people it may, I think that a practice of, of being able to say, okay, if I can, if I can look at try to identify with more of like my like the part of myself that I [00:31:00] want to be. So a practice that can be really helpful is this idea of writing a letter to yourself as if you were writing it to a friend.
So let's say a really close friend of yours was saying like, Oh man, I'm just struggling with pornography. I just have been having such a hard time. What would you say to this friend? You know, what, what are the actual words you would say? What would your body language be? What would your tone be? Just to kind of get this idea or this grasp of what is this compassion look like and really applying it to yourself.
So these are some practices that, that may be helpful. So I would say starting with that can be, can be really, really helpful of, of trying to connect with ourselves in that way. And the last thing I would add is this idea of, and I talked about this before, but this idea of I don't know another way to say it other than this common humanity of you know, this is something like shame is something we all experience.
And this just happens to be the way that mine really manifests for me. These are the behaviors [00:32:00] I see myself do when I'm feeling shame and we're all struggling now. It's not meant to minimize the experience. It's not meant to say like, well, I shouldn't feel bad about this. But it's just, I think it brings in this like, oh yeah, we're all struggling with shame.
And I think it brings a sense of connectedness when we realize I'm struggling with this, you're struggling with this. And it, it kind of brings us together rather than keeping, keeping us apart.
Crishelle: Yes, I love that. And in fact, I, this has come up to mind a couple of times, and I don't have the perfect scripture reference, so I'll just have to be patient with that. But, as I've been studying the Book of Mormon this week, I feel like I noticed more this time than ever before that Nephi is talking about the fall.
And that we are all fallen and that we all are in this circumstance where we need Jesus. And, and I thought that that was really interesting. And I feel like it wasn't until you just [00:33:00] like put all this together that I was like, Oh my gosh, like so many of us, myself included want to be like, Oh, I'm above the fall.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Crishelle: you know, like I'm, that's not my experience. I'm good. You know, when, when in reality, the, the common humanity is that we, we really all do experience shame. We all really have circumstances in our life that the are beyond what our capacity was to deal with them. And, and we developed coping skills that weren't great, and and, and maybe we're, we're continuing to develop coping skills that aren't great, and we now want to change those things, right? Like, that is, that is, that is accurate, I think, for literally anyone with a pulse.
Right? anD everyone who came before us, and so I, and I think that there is a ton of power in realizing that I'm not in this alone.[00:34:00]
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: I'm not the only one who's felt that, and I love, I love both of those examples, but I especially, I think sometimes if you're like not ready to, To love yourself and to like have that compassion for yourself.
I love and have used the, the writing to yourself as a friend. And like, what would I, what would I say to my sister? What would I say to my best friend in this moment? And, and that, I mean, that, that helps me get out of anger because that's usually how I get real sassy. And, but it helps me to come back to that place of, of compassion and, and love and like open arms, as opposed to like, what was I thinking?
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: And, and continuing that. So, oh, such beautiful examples. So is that just really all the, [00:35:00] like, is that the magic thing is to have self compassion or like, what is the next step? Like, how do we know that we. That we're out of that pattern. Does that make sense?
Rachel: Yeah. Well, I would say that with the self compassion that it's, it's really I mean, I would hope for a daily practice. I mean, I don't know if we as humans are wired for self compassion. I think we're just wired for safety. And I mean, literally our brains exist to keep us alive. They don't exist to be happy.
They don't exist to experience joy. They just, they're just there for survival.
Crishelle: Gosh, I love that so much
Rachel: yeah. Yeah,
Crishelle: That's so true
Rachel: So we're talking about of like compassion and self compassion and, and kindness and love. And I mean, like these things are against the way our brains naturally want to go. So [00:36:00] with, with what's really interesting about our brains though, is the more we push.
Back against our natural inclinations the easier it becomes, it literally is like a muscle or that we continue to push and to, to try and find whatever practice works for us and try to commit to it, the easier it will become. So I just want to say like with a self compassion piece, I think we we think like, okay, we'll be some self compassionate maybe a couple of times and hopefully that helps.
But this, this truly is, we're going against what our brains are naturally designed to do, and it's going to take time and, and truly a level of commitment to this practice of, of self compassion. So I would say that that's, that's definitely probably the first step is really leaning into This idea of self compassion. The other thing I would,
Crishelle: I just want to Add and i'm not a neurosurgeon. I'm not like I did not [00:37:00] done I don't have all the studies right here to back that up, but I did learn quite a bit about addiction and and our brains and the chemistry, but our neuropathways can change, they can heal. And I love that you're talking about this daily practice of self compassion, like literally you can change your initial reaction to be something else. It's just like, literally, I can go out to a basketball hoop right now and pick up a ball and make a baby hook. It might take me two tries, but, like, literally, it will, it can happen. And I haven't picked up a basketball in six months. And, like, before that, it was probably even longer, right? So, like, that neural pathway is there.
And it, and, , My, my brain and my body like figured that out and, and now it is still ingrained where I can still make that shot and I could change that by practicing something new,
Rachel: right, right,
Crishelle: Like [00:38:00] I could totally change that just I, just like I put that in place. And so you've been practicing shame for a really long time. Right? We've been practic it's, it's our natural instinct to hide to keep us safe. But as you practice that self compassion, there is so much hope for you to not only heal and change, but to, to become stronger and to have a different reaction when those things happen in the future.
Rachel: right, exactly.
Crishelle: Is that all? I, again, like, I'm not the, like, neurosurgeon or whatever, but is that, is that accurate?
Does that line
Rachel: Yeah, I, I would say so. I think that I think that it really. Requires, I guess what I'm really thinking about here is, is there is like, can we get to a place where we're just automatically self compassionate and maybe, but I don't know if I bet on it. Like I, I think that this is like [00:39:00] literally has to be a daily practice.
It's interesting because I think that part of the equation we often are missing when we think about Healing quote unquote in this, in this Westernized world is therapy and and a lot of the work we try to do is so individual, which is good. I think that there's a lot of work we can do individually like self compassion.
I think that that's a really key and important piece, but we, as people are just. not designed to do this alone. And so I think that there has to be an element of including other people. And I think that what's so interesting to me, if we're going back to this idea of Adam and Eve, and this idea of like this first experience of shame is that.
You know, after they ate the fruit and they hid themselves, [00:40:00] well, first they clothed themselves and then they hid Jesus or God comes and asks for them. And the first thing that Adam does is he comes out and he's like, well, listen, God, I was trying to obey you, you know, you you told me to, to stick with Eve and she ate the fruit.
And so understandably, like, right. He's probably feeling shame at what he had decided to do. And his first inclination is. To get defensive and, or to like blame, which is not an uncommon response to when we're feeling shame. But Eve's response is so interesting because she has a level of just. Pretty direct accountability.
She says, yep, you know, the snake came and I did, I did make that choice to eat.
Crishelle: Yeah.
Rachel: And I think because of that, that's what allowed for there to be this repair between her choice and God and, and who she was trying to reconnect with. So I would say this, this second aspect to shifting into this, the [00:41:00] space of guilt is being.
Accountable. And I don't want to say of like feeling like we have to be compulsively accountable every time we look at pornography, but I think it's like this, this feeling of just like settling into like, honestly, yeah, this is something I struggle with. And I want to, I want to like settle into it in the way of saying I'm going to be like true to what really is happening.
Because it, when I can see what's true, then I can then decide how I want to move forward. And the way we really do that is in our interactions with other people. Because when we are feeling shame, we want to hide, we want to protect. Maybe we're lying. Maybe we are Like withholding information or just withdrawing and it's really challenging to move into that space of guilt, but then also just like move through feelings of shame without other people.
And I think the first step to doing that is, like I said, just, just kind of owning it. I'm just saying like, yeah, [00:42:00] this, you're right. This is something that I did. This is something I struggle with. And then it opens the door for. For further connection, which then we know helps ease shame,
Crishelle: Yeah. Beautifully said. And I feel like this is starting to maybe answer the second question, which is, like, can I I feel like my social skills have been harmed. Can I recover from that? Can those things that I'm noticing about myself that have been impacted by porn use, can those change? And, you know, I don't think it's going to be like a magic button.
Like, all of a sudden, you're a normal 25 year old who never looked at porn. Like, fix!
Rachel: right?
Crishelle: But rather That as you work and practice the self compassion, and then as you move into really connecting with and building those relationships, those social skills are going to come and, and build and [00:43:00] grow as, as you do, as you practice that. And that's what I'm hearing you say,
Rachel: Yeah, I think so. I mean, of course I don't know this person. I don't know like what they mean when, when they're talking about pornography and how they feel like it's impacted their social skills. One of the things I think is really interesting though, is in general is that most of us, when we're meeting each other or interacting with each other, we're really just.
interacting with each other's masks. Like, I just, I don't know if we really truly know very many people. And, and if we do it, it takes a long time and like building up lots of trust and taking leaps into vulnerability to really get there. But I, I think that most of us are socially awkward or off because we have different masks.
So. His mask may be one of just like completely withdrawing and I guess I shouldn't assume him, [00:44:00] but This person's mask may just be like I just really withdraw and that's my mask someone else's mask may be like Oh, I'm just really goofy and I am chatterbox and I'm trying to distract from what's really going on or maybe someone else's Really stoic or we all have masks and I think the the point is here is If we're really wanting to work through, like work through our shame, because all of us have masks because of the shame we're experiencing then it really is taking a chance and allowing other people to see what really is there. I don't necessarily mean like when you meet someone that means sharing all of the things that you've done or struggled with. But I think that there's this layer of like, what would like, what would the authentic me do? And I think a lot of times the way I think about that is like, if I, if I look at me when I was like four or five years old, [00:45:00] what would my natural inclinations be?
And for me, I was a pretty I was a pretty like observant. And I really, really focused in on other people's interactions. I was really interested in how people were feeling. In fact, my mom shares that when I was a kid, I would ask her to pause every few minutes and I would want her to explain to me the dynamics of what people were feeling.
And so for me, I think that's something that I just naturally am very in tuned to, but my. Does not do that. My mask is different. My mask wants to be liked. And so I have specific things that I do. And it's because I don't want people to find out about the things I'm feeling ashamed of. And so I want to try to protect.
So I think it's this like, what really is under this, this part of me, I don't want anyone to know. And can I be as kind of live and try to behave as true to that as I can.
Crishelle: Interesting. Yeah, and I wonder if, and you can probably answer this, but it seems like we might even [00:46:00] make those masks because we really don't want to have to hide who we really are.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
Crishelle: And, and so it's safer to create this mask that's like, oh, well, if they reject me, then that's actually not me,
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: Like they're rejecting like, just that, like, you know, the, the goofy side of me that, but when we can show up authentically. We give permission to everyone else to do the same and the connection is going to be so much more authentic and, and deep and rich and what we're actually looking for.
Rachel: Exactly.
Crishelle: Right? And, and that is a really beautiful thing. And I think it's going to take some practice. Like I, I mean, as you were explaining that, I was like, wow, you know, it will probably feel really uncomfortable for me to like really show up that way a hundred percent of the time. Initially, like I'm, I'm probably going to have to be like, [00:47:00] give myself some self compassion if I find myself slipping back into roles or masks that aren't actually who I am. Yeah. And, and, and I was like, wow, another opportunity to practice self compassion. And then I think there's just going to be such a beautiful journey. What a beautiful journey. And it made me also excited to, to teach my, to teach my girls to do that different than how, like, I've done it because I'm learning, I'm learning to do it different now.
And I think that's what's really beautiful about life. And this, this listener said that he's 20. He, we don't know. This listener said that they're 25. Like, are they always going to be this way? You know, I'm, I'm 32. I've definitely changed a lot in all of those years. And as I've learned things, I've been able to shift and change things.
And then there's all those things that I've picked up and, [00:48:00] and like that aren't maybe great, but what's really beautiful is. I know that as we practice things, and as we, as we learn more skills, and we get more awareness of, of ourselves, and what's really going on, we can choose differently. We don't have to continue choosing the same thing that isn't working for us.
Rachel: Yeah. Exactly.
Crishelle: gives me a lot of hope. Yeah, go
Rachel: and I think that's the, the whole point that of why we're here and, and what we're trying to like what, what our mission is, is. To be able to really connect with the, the parts of us that our brains and our bodies are not naturally inclined to do. But with that, I would say like really trusting the wisdom of our bodies.
I think that our bodies know so much [00:49:00] before our brains do or may even ever know. And so it's really just. As much as we can connecting to how things are feeling for us. And again, most of us are wildly out of touch with our bodies. And so it's this practice of really being able to, to come back to what is this that I'm experiencing.
Crishelle: Yeah. Yeah. I, again, I want to go back and personally listen to that episode and I'll link it in our show notes of how to, how to have change in just the, the step by step that you walked us through of starting to notice what our bodies are saying.
All of the time. Because they really are. They are talking so much and they're trying to tell us what we're actually feeling. And it's really uncomfortable. And, and I, you know, if it's uncomfortable for you, it's definitely uncomfortable for me, too. Like, my therapist today was like, Rochelle, how does that actually make you feel in your body?
And I was like, I
Rachel: Hmm.
Crishelle: don't want to go there [00:50:00] right now because then I'll actually have to feel it.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: But, you know, I went there. At least for a moment and I'm still practicing going there with this particular thing because it is hard and I'm going like I want to do I want to do quote unquote the work I want to practice this because I want that thing to be different in my life.
I want my relationships to be more rich and more beautiful and authentic and real. And ultimately I want to stop hiding from myself and from God and from others. You know,
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: it's worth it, I think. I hope.
Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think one of the things that, and I maybe have said this other podcast, I can't remember, but one of the things that's really fascinating to me is that when we talk about sitting with our emotions or sitting with what we're feeling in, in this case, we may be talking about shame. So really bringing it back to the question, you know, [00:51:00] if I'm someone who has Has looked at pornography and I'm just feeling those feelings of shame. What's so interesting is that our, our bodies, well, I would say like our minds are so afraid. That if we let ourselves actually feel that feeling of shame, that a couple of things are going to happen. One is that it's going to overwhelm us and we're going to, it's going to take over. And then two, that it's going to then be here to stay forever. And it's almost like our brains catastrophize shame quite a bit. And it's almost like, well, shoot, if I let you feel this, it's never going to go away and you're going to be in pain always. And so I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure you actually don't feel this shame. But if we actually let ourselves feel it, and by that, I just mean like feeling the, like actually feeling that feeling like, so for me, I feel a shame in my gut.
I feel my cheeks [00:52:00] flush. I feel my heartbeat faster if I'm actually going to feel that it would be this. This moment of, of actually quite stillness of just watching the sensations of the shame grow in my body and watching, maybe watching like maybe my muscles are actually tensing for action. Maybe my brain is starting to spiral.
Maybe my mind and my thoughts are starting to, to, to ruminate. Maybe it actually becomes physically really, really uncomfortable and painful. But when we can sit with it, the longer we can sit with it, the more it shows our brain like, hey, this actually is not I can survive this. Like this isn't this isn't as dangerous as we think it is.
So when we're talking about sitting with our emotions, that, that's generally what hopefully is happening. But again, it's really, really challenging to do this. And there are ways to practice and work your way up to feeling those feelings of shame. So if, if [00:53:00] I I'm starting to feel shame because I looked at pornography.
That would be my very first step. Really connecting that mindfulness piece, really connecting with what, what does this feel like? Then I bring in my, my, my brain, I'm saying like, okay, now can I bring in the self compassion to this? Can I bring in this awareness of I understand why I made the choice that I did.
I understand when I looked at pornography, that doesn't mean I agree with it. It just means I understand. I get why I did that. And it's hard. This is really hard. And I'm so grateful that I'm learning the skills of how to work with this better. And then after that, what I want this practice really starts to become a little easier whether, and hopefully this is a daily practice.
Then I would, then I would really try to find a way to connect with people. So. What I would really do is find people that feel safe to start with. Maybe that's connecting with a family member, a friend, a spouse. Maybe like there's actual groups you can [00:54:00] find of people where it's just this level of like, here it is.
Like, I'm not, this is a space where I'm not going to try to hide this. I'm just laying it all out. And again, I don't think that this can necessarily be done with anybody or with everybody. I would be, I would be. mindful about who I would choose to do this with. And really from there with those two practices, I think that really is what helps allow Moving through the shame and really I would say like being okay with shame being there, you know, next time shame you, you notice that those sensations of shame coming, it's like, here it is, you know, welcome buddy.
And I know I can handle it. And, and then when you connect with your group of being like, I'm feeling a lot of shame around this and having other people saying, yeah, me too. Like, I think it's that it's just so powerful when we can really create these spaces for ourselves.
Crishelle: Oh, I love that. And I, I kept thinking of Inside Out and you brought up the Inside Out movie. [00:55:00] It's a Pixar movie and I just kept thinking of Joy when she realizes that sadness. Has a role, you know, and , instead of like fighting or trying to hide sadness, she's just like, Hey. And I feel like my relationship with Shane will probably look different than my relationship with sadness.
But rather than being like, no, go back to time out, it will be like, Oh, Hey, you're here. You know, let's. Let's figure out what we need to do.
Rachel: Right.
Crishelle: Or like, let's, you know, what's going on? What are you telling me?
Rachel: Yeah. Right. Mm. Mm
Crishelle: how beautiful and like freeing that is. As opposed to just like, You go on timeout and don't, just stay in that room.
Don't ever come out, you know.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: And I can totally see why my mind wants to do that. Like, of course I don't, of course I don't want to deal with that. Of course I want to hide. Of course I want to put that away where I don't ever have to feel that. [00:56:00] How beautiful to, to rather like team up instead and to be like, thanks for showing me that.
Rachel: Mm.
Crishelle: This is what I want to do different.
Rachel: Mm. Yeah. I mean, it really, shame is just showing you where your wounds still are. So, with this self compassionate piece, it just reminds me, like, oh, we're still hurting, aren't we?
Crishelle: yeah,
Rachel: And we're still so afraid that someone else is going to find out and I see you and make sense that you're here. Again, it's, I think it's really important to separate the make sense you're here and not.
That doesn't mean we accept the behavior or think it's okay. It's just like, I get it. I get why you did it. It doesn't mean I agree with it, but I understand.
Crishelle: yeah. I love that. Makes sense you're here.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: Thank you for showing up.
Rachel: Yeah.
Crishelle: How beautiful. Anything else you want to share as we wrap this little discussion up?[00:57:00]
Rachel: I, I just, I know we didn't talk directly about pornography. Really in this, in this episode, but I think that this idea or this principle really, it applies to all of us. I mean, it applied to Adam and Eve. I just, I don't know if there's anyone that's doesn't apply to. And so I think that this practice, no matter how shame manifests for us, whether it's pornography or something else this is work that we all have to do.
And I think that it's really neat to be able to, to begin to participate in this. I mean, I, this is something that I personally have really the past year have worked, been working with, and it certainly is a daily practice. But it's, it's been interesting watching the way that I've been able to connect with my body in a different way, connect with shame in a different way.
And certainly I think it, I think it's a lifelong practice, but It's been [00:58:00] really interesting and, and to, to try to work with clients is there, and like even groups of people as we're trying this practice, it, it does work. And I think that there's lots of examples throughout time, whether it's the scriptures or Other stories we hear people that this is, this truly is the, I didn't want to say the work, but this is just kind of the privilege it is, is to be able to, to really work with each other and with ourselves in that way.
So I just encourage whoever's listening that whether or not this is something you struggle with or that, that we all struggle with shame or we all experienced shame. And so really trying to integrate it that way.
Crishelle: Beautifully said, Rachel, I am so grateful for this discussion. It has been enlightening for me, and I hope it has been for you, whoever you are and wherever you are. And I hope that it provides you with some tools and resources to help you start moving to a place of self-compassion and saying, of [00:59:00] course you're here. Shame. And just acknowledging the fact that you're human and that you're doing a great job. You can do it differently, but shaming yourself into doing different actions, isn't going to work. Rather when we come to a place of self-compassion and peace and stillness, that's when we can move forward.
I am so excited for season three. We're already working on it and setting up interviews. So, if you have any questions that you want answered in our ASCA therapist series, or you want to share your journey in recovering and healing from pornography. Or betrayal, trauma and developing healthy sexuality.
Please submit that in the form that is linked in the show notes or email me at hello outreach, ten.org. I'm so glad you're here. I also want to give a special things and shout out to our sponsor relay. They have created an incredible app that will help you stay connected and realize that you are [01:00:00] not alone. It has incredible tools and resources and most importantly, a support group that can help cheer you on in your work, in overcoming the patterns and shame cycles that you find yourself trapped in. Use the link in the show notes and check relay out. It's for you.
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I can't wait for season three. See you then. Thank you for listening to Breaking the Silence by Reach 10. Break the silence and help us create a culture of courage and compassion by sharing what you learned today with someone you love. Help us reach more people by rating and reviewing [01:01:00] us on iTunes or liking and leaving a comment on YouTube. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any episodes.
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