History and Messianism in Modern Jewish Thought with Dr. Gilad Sharvit

PJ and Dr. Gilad Sharvit discuss the concept of repetition as it relates to 20th century Jewish conceptions of messianism.

Show Notes

In this episode of the Chasing Leviathan podcast, PJ and Dr. Gilad Sharvit discuss the concept of repetition as relates to twentieth-century Jewish theories of messianism. Dr. Sharvit's work not only elucidates the messianic impulses within the works of Kafka, Freud, and Benjamin, but also explores themes of hope that the Jewish faith shares with other traditions.

For a deep dive into Dr. Gilad Sharvit's work, check out his book: 
Dynamic Repetition: History and Messianism in Modern Jewish Thought 👉 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1684581036/

Check out our blog on www.candidgoatproductions.com 

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. When it rises up, the mighty are terrified. Nothing on earth is its equal. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. 

These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. 

Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

What is Chasing Leviathan?

Who thinks that they can subdue Leviathan? Strength resides in its neck; dismay goes before it. It is without fear. It looks down on all who are haughty; it is king over all who are proud. These words inspired PJ Wehry to create Chasing Leviathan. Chasing Leviathan was born out of two ideals: that truth is worth pursuing but will never be subjugated, and the discipline of listening is one of the most important habits anyone can develop. Every episode is a dialogue, a journey into the depths of a meaningful question explored through the lens of personal experience or professional expertise.

[pj_wehry]: after all that i didn't have this
up and welcome to chasing leviathan i'm here

[pj_wehry]: today with charvet and we are talking
about dynamic repetition studies on the models of

[pj_wehry]: time and history that shape jewish messianism
and drtrevite such a pleasure to have you

[pj_wehry]: on today talk to us a little
bit about your career and what

[gilad]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: made you write this book

[gilad]: o thank you so much for having
me the pleasure and this book racily started

[gilad]: in the class room i was teaching

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: at the time at berkeley see berkeley
and i was teaching about fred theory of

[gilad]: history as it is expressed in moses
and onitsimthis is its last book and about

[gilad]: the origins of of judaism and we
know this in class there the pattern of

[gilad]: repetition that you identify and is to
interesting pattern repetition between different groups of religious

[gilad]: organization you have one group and then
another and then another and they're all have

[gilad]: um repetitive structure and

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: slowly and surely what happened is that
i actually realize that patterns repetition are recurring

[gilad]: in that period of time in german
jewish history so we're talking about intervale period

[gilad]: and somehow you can find them quite
easily so and figure how they are important

[gilad]: to the jewish philosopher france rosansvege and
to the jewish critique and an author walter

[gilad]: ben mine and to froid and even
to the author franskafka and this became a

[gilad]: journey to realize what are the how
repetition play out in that history and what

[gilad]: are the purposes of that repetition

[pj_wehry]: and so just to be up front
until you know where i'm coming from i'm

[pj_wehry]: a devout christian but even as i
was looking through what i mean obviously there's

[pj_wehry]: going to be some similarities as fat
as that rely and ship might be sometimes

[pj_wehry]: i notice that you alfio reference kirk
guard kind of at the beginning to define

[pj_wehry]: that repetition so for our audience can
you talk a little bit about carkagard's definition

[pj_wehry]: of repetition and how you use that
to kind of start as you're you're framing

[pj_wehry]: things

[gilad]: yeah so that's absolutely correct so in
order to understand how repetition plays out in

[gilad]: kregard we need to understand how it
plays out ancient history so in ancient history

[gilad]: the idea of repetition is the idea
that of eternal returns that things repeat exactly

[gilad]: as they are and the reason that
they repeat exactly as they are is that

[gilad]: in history the meaning of things are
not in this world so if you would

[gilad]: like to underst and what it is
meaning of the of marriage you will see

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: that in the marriage of the god
outside of this world or how how to

[gilad]: create a good house

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: the

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: good

[pj_wehry]: no

[gilad]: health needs to be according to a
model of the house of the gods so

[gilad]: the meaning of this world is in
the angien world with speaking in very large

[gilad]: sense is something that is based on
something outside of the world of a repetition

[gilad]: of that which is outside of the
world and so repetition is foundational to the

[gilad]: to me in the ancient world so
if you would like to have a meaning

[gilad]: for harvest you need in some way
to copy or repeat patterns that you find

[gilad]: outside of the world that some kind
of and it's called the mystical world or

[gilad]: the mystic world or the beginning of
the world but something that is not in

[gilad]: the current in our current reality and

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: this is what's known to be classical
repetition meaning the world repeats a pattern outside

[gilad]: of the world and in this pane
repetition the repetition is useful or or correct

[gilad]: if it is identical to what's outside
of the vote so there is a question

[gilad]: of identity so to a degree that
we're able to repeat things completely we are

[gilad]: able to create meaning into our world
so again if i would like to have

[gilad]: a successful marriage i would need to
repeat it re create that which is outside

[gilad]: of my world in order to do
that now interestingly i'm sorry kago is writing

[gilad]: a book in eighteen forty three that
called report ion that suggest a different version

[gilad]: of what repetition is and he understand
repetition exactly not as an identical repetition of

[gilad]: something that occurred in the past or
i'm sorry of some kind of pattern outside

[gilad]: of the world but he suggests a
repetition as an incident of relations between past

[gilad]: in prison and what is interesting in
his understanding or petition is that this repetition

[gilad]: need not be identical so the events
in time should not be identical to what

[gilad]: happened in the past but actual they
should contain some difference and this difference is

[gilad]: important for kikregard philosophy and we can
maybe say something about that but the important

[gilad]: fact that we should re is that
for kirkagard the repetition is not an identical

[gilad]: and or identity between two events in
time but actually some kind of relation that

[gilad]: holds some difference some difference between those
events so it's not the repetition as an

[gilad]: idea and as an act of identity
but actually a repetition as an act of

[gilad]: differ and we can say something about
that if you would like

[pj_wehry]: so even as you're talking about it's
outside the world that kind of goes back

[pj_wehry]: to talking about models of time and
history right it's that it's outside of time

[pj_wehry]: that classical repetition is that outside of
time and history if that's why it's mystical

[pj_wehry]: or that's why it relies on the
mystical would that be correct

[gilad]: yes absolutely so exactly so what we're
trying to achieve in classical repetition is to

[gilad]: achieve this kind of timelessness in a
sense that copying something that is outside time

[gilad]: outside history something is supposedly in the
beginning of time or outside of time and

[gilad]: in that sense we are in a
sense we are inserting timelessness into our reality

[gilad]: so we are kind of like stabilizing
our reality creating it as something that is

[gilad]: endless and in that sense also meaningless
i'm sorry meaningful

[pj_wehry]: and so is there like would you
say that for the classical repetition you're talking

[pj_wehry]: about something static and then we you'retalingabout
past and present you're talking about something that

[pj_wehry]: is a process which i think would
make sense with what kerikgardis trying to do

[pj_wehry]: in his philosophy but

[gilad]: yes exactly so now we can maybe
suggest so if repetition in the classic sense

[gilad]: is something that is static something that
kind of like makes our moment as an

[gilad]: endless moment that has no changes kirgotthink
of that as something much more dynamic and

[gilad]: to understand what in what way how
he thinks about that maybe i should say

[gilad]: one word about how we understand m
the experience of the individual the subject in

[gilad]: its philosophy because for kikagad it's very
important that we are able to

[pj_wehry]: hm

[gilad]: create our own reality that there is
is one of the forefathers of existentialism and

[gilad]: and for him our ability to have
to self direct to self directness our ability

[gilad]: to create our life is very crucial
to understand the good life now it's interesting

[gilad]: for kikagadthat he finds repetition to be
crucial to this process of self directness in

[gilad]: a sense that if we are usually
seeing ourselves as somehow created by passive and

[gilad]: so we are in our current moment
the result of many events in time that

[gilad]: happened that create ourselves that created us
in a sense that we are the result

[gilad]: of something that is external as kikgad
says that in order to see ourselves as

[gilad]: in some way independent and autonomous we
need to see ourselves as repeating events in

[gilad]: the in the past to the degree
that if i'm considering how my present is

[gilad]: not the result of many events in
the past but actually relates to to events

[gilad]: in the past for example my present
is related to to repetition of some moment

[gilad]: in my past i'm able to take
myself outside of the series of causal events

[gilad]: in time and recreate my the meaning
of my moment of my

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: present by thinking of how i'm related
actually to a different path to a different

[gilad]: moment in time so i'm not the
result of series of consecutive events in time

[gilad]: but actually i'm recreating myself in relation
to a certain event in a certain in

[gilad]: my past so and by that ability
to tie myself to different events in the

[gilad]: past and now i've seen myself as
resulting from series of events

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: in my history

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: i'm able to create myself as an
independent and autonomous

[pj_wehry]: absolutely and forgive me if this is

[pj_wehry]: i'm trying to think through this ould
it be would another way of thinking about

[pj_wehry]: this in day to day terms would
be you have a ritual may be a

[pj_wehry]: way of setting the table and that's
always the same versus with kirkgardit seems to

[pj_wehry]: be form of training as in every
time you do the same action you get

[pj_wehry]: slightly better or it's because it slightly
changes

[gilad]: um m yes that's that's a great
example but i think it's it's it's mostly

[gilad]: about how we are eceiving ourselves differently
from how we used to think of ourselves

[gilad]: so to give you a sense so
i'm teaching every day right and

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: it seems like my life are set
for me and my my reality is set

[gilad]: in a way that i'm coming i
wake up i wake up in the morning

[gilad]: and i have rituals and this ritual
brings me to the end of the day

[gilad]: in which i'm basically almost feeling like
life is passing on me so kikgod says

[gilad]: how can you avoid that and one
way would be maybe to think of this

[gilad]: moment in time not as a repetition
of yesterday or the day before in which

[gilad]: i was always also teaching but maybe
think of me a year ago in which

[gilad]: i had an experience of

[gilad]: a different kind of teaching moment or
a moment

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: in which i taught in the different
university something that brings about new meaning to

[gilad]: my every day so and be able
to go back to this moment in time

[gilad]: and think differently at my present i'm
able to to reconsider my life and reconsider

[gilad]: my options and reconsider how to live
and experience that present moment because we are

[gilad]: kind of like almost always closed by
our own day to day reality and god

[gilad]: is suggest let's think of ourselves not
as this as we are forced to live

[gilad]: in this on going reality but actually
as how we are able to move um

[gilad]: backwards and think about the past events
like a year ago two months ago and

[gilad]: how we are also different from those
events were not the same and this difference

[gilad]: between

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: this event it produces

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: something that is very

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: crucial to kikaguy

[pj_wehry]: yeah i think i'm tracking with you
i think you know before we get into

[pj_wehry]: froid and kaka and benjamin you talk
about the two poles for jewish messianism

[gilad]: ah

[pj_wehry]: and you start with this really great
story which i had heard before but if

[pj_wehry]: you don't mind telling it again and
giving kind of how it demonstrates these two

[pj_wehry]: different types of repetition the messiah at
the gate of how does that kind of

[pj_wehry]: set up this whole discussion in terms
of the jewish conception of messiah

[gilad]: yeah so so this story is basically
it calls them selves a gate of rome

[gilad]: in which a jewish sage goes to
elia and asks him about the not a

[gilad]: messiah because elijah supposedly knows about the
coming of the messiah and elijah asks a

[gilad]: sage to go and meet the messiah
at the gates of rome and and asking

[gilad]: himself now the sage says how would
i recognize the messiah and elijah answers you

[gilad]: will see him wrapping bandages on himself
on and on i see if he's bandaging

[gilad]: a wound and is at the gates
of rome like all the other poor people

[gilad]: of rome and so the messiah goes
to i'm sorry this sage goes to jerome

[gilad]: and meets the messiah and asks him
about whether he would come and when the

[gilad]: messiah said i will come today

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: and so the

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: sage goes back and very happily

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: but but he does not come and
if then he goes to a liar and

[gilad]: ask him could it be that there
was a mistake could it be that there

[gilad]: was something wrong and

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: could it be the messiah was lying
and so lige says no he meant actually

[gilad]: that you will he will come today
if you will do has he said or

[gilad]: something in those lines and now what's
interesting is that many consider that to be

[gilad]: a moment in which we think about
mechanism something that is unknown or something that

[gilad]: is not related to human actions or
even the messiah does not know when it

[gilad]: will come but what's fascinating to me
is the movement that we are seeing in

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: this in this story movement of repetition
of the messiah times the bandages and the

[gilad]: tying him again and again every day
and there is something repetitive in this reality

[gilad]: of being in the messianic moment that
this story depicted and i think was not

[gilad]: recognized for what is actually very important
for our understanding of how mechanism functions in

[gilad]: modernity

[pj_wehry]: and so that kind of

[gilad]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: takes us into that inter war period
that you were talking about in the nineteen

[pj_wehry]: thirties so how do you see this
idea of repetition playing out in thinkers kofkafroyid

[pj_wehry]: benjamin um you know maybe just as
a starting off question maybe i miss the

[pj_wehry]: point of it but when i see
letter to the father instead of letter to

[pj_wehry]: a father from kaka that to me
is

[gilad]: hm

[pj_wehry]: a signal what what do you think
is there meaning to the choice of the

[pj_wehry]: father instead of a father there

[gilad]: that's a beautiful question yeah so cafkar's
relations with his father are very complicated and

[gilad]: it is part of what many considered
to be a problem or a challenge of

[gilad]: of that narration and it is a
challenge in which of alienation from tradition so

[gilad]: what you find in the in the
early tenth century period is a new generation

[gilad]: of of educated jews who are in
many ways ask to leave jewish tradition and

[gilad]: ask to be to join the general
secular society by their fathers but

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: the problem is that this generation is
actually does not find themselves in that outside

[gilad]: reality and they are there by being
pushed out they're also cannot find their home

[gilad]: back in the is tradition so this
living in between in between the jewish tradition

[gilad]: that they were pushed by their

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: father and not being accepted or completely
accepted to the general society on the other

[gilad]: hand created a really serious challenge to
that generation and in this letter that you

[gilad]: ourouryou're just mentioning casca is basically asking
or question or or even charging it further

[gilad]: with serious questions about that movement of
or that request to leave the jewish tradition

[gilad]: is what it entailed and basically what
africa saying to the father is that it

[gilad]: is easier to the father to live
in a world secular world because he was

[gilad]: connected to the jewish tradition and he

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: had some sources of meaning to rely
on which the cat in this generation blacked

[gilad]: and in that sense kava is living
in an impossible reality in which is torn

[gilad]: from jewish tradition and the outside world
and this is in part because of how

[gilad]: the older generation educated or grew there
or grew their their offspring or their children

[pj_wehry]: how do these how does this likeliminal
space this

[gilad]: yeah

[pj_wehry]: alienated space for identity play into models
of time and history

[gilad]: yeah so i think the sure answer
is that what you find in the interwod

[gilad]: period is a moment of great um
great danger in a sense what you find

[gilad]: is glowing fascism growing antisism and you
find dangers of economic depression and and many

[gilad]: left wing figures in the jewish community
somehow figure ways to for radical changes in

[gilad]: that reality through messianism so and that's
the moment of real fascination because exactly the

[gilad]: who left the jewish tradition behind benjamin
was not not religious at all kaka was

[gilad]: not religious at all for sir i
not somehow they were fascinated with model of

[gilad]: messianism or thinking

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: of messinism or juishmesinism as a way
to move beyond the challenging or to solve

[gilad]: the challenging of there political present so
and and this is in a way a

[gilad]: radical thought in its purest form so
rather than solve political char just with political

[gilad]: means there is an attempt to find
some more radical solution solution that will transcend

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: the current political reality by way of
messianism so so exactly those who were left

[gilad]: outside of tradition return to that tradition
exactly in order to find solution to what

[gilad]: they found to be unsolved problems of
their present time

[pj_wehry]: do you get a different

[gilad]: oh

[pj_wehry]: set of models among those thinkers for
messianism

[gilad]: so there are i think what i
find is a series of different models of

[gilad]: repetition that are not identical in a
sense that they are working on different parametersfr

[gilad]: example benjamin and afraid and and wasn't
like thing of mecanism in terms of the

[gilad]: entire jewish people benjamin think about that
in different terms certainly is also different they

[gilad]: also very different in terms of the
structures of how repetition works but what's fascinating

[gilad]: is that they all find repetition to
be foundational to there the s a mechanism

[gilad]: so and if you will allow me
i will just give you a sense of

[gilad]: how that works

[pj_wehry]: please

[gilad]: in one sentence so i think it's
a nice way

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: to think of that is to think
about france rosensvike

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: so far wasn't like write in nineteen
twenty one a book about called the star

[gilad]: of redemption in which is trying

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: to figure out the

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: place of today in modernity exactly because
he was in quite some not part of

[gilad]: the jewish world he felt what do
we what is the purpose of judas and

[gilad]: what is a value of judaism in
our present time and in order to understand

[gilad]: how his answer relates to repetition and
to ideas of h messianism a short moment

[gilad]: about how it feels about community so
communities could be understood in different ways communities

[gilad]: organize some and by values or principles
or even religious ideals but wasn't wasn't like

[gilad]: believe that communities are actually organized by
way of temporal and figures of calendar and

[gilad]: he basically says that what makes the
community a commune is it

[pj_wehry]: hm

[gilad]: on goin calendar the repetitions of festivals
and the repetition of different days and repetition

[gilad]: of the structure of the week that
this is what creates

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: wax prance of a community so the
fact that jewish

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: people are all

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: not are not working on saturday while
all the rest of the world do work

[gilad]: on saturday is the moment of the
creation of over community and you can see

[gilad]: that happen in the ancient world when
for example when you have the christian world

[gilad]: the moment the christian world breaks out
of judaism in the moment of the creation

[gilad]: of the christian candor the moment of
the change of the saturday to sunday at

[gilad]: the end of the week and and
this is important to sin because it suggests

[gilad]: that this

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: experience of repetition of time like repetition
of the days and the weeks the repetition

[gilad]: of the

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: festivals is something that creates the community
now why this is messianic for for was

[gilad]: it like there is a notion that
to bring world redemption we need to work

[gilad]: in dual form and there is a
place both for christianity and judaism in that

[gilad]: structure he believes that the purpose of
chris unity is to bring everyone under god

[gilad]: it's a kind of an imperialist religion
with its

[pj_wehry]: ah

[gilad]: function of bringing

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: all all humanity under god to with
them it's to collect everyone under god and

[gilad]: the purpose of judaism in this structure
is to create a model for the christian

[gilad]: world to move towards the judaism in
is it creates a kind of a community

[gilad]: that anticipate redemption it's kind of like
a structure that shows us where we need

[gilad]: to go if we are living in
a christian world and what's fascinating in this

[gilad]: description is that the huge problem of
the jewish world is that it is easily

[gilad]: swallowed by the christian world and rose
believes that the jewish world needed to find

[gilad]: a way to create some kind of
an essential difference between the jewish and the

[gilad]: christian world and this essential difference is
the jewish calendar so

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: put it very simply if you would
like to have an independent reality and independent

[gilad]: jewish reality that would show the entire
world under christianity where the world needs to

[gilad]: go in order to achieve redemption then
then rose says you need to create a

[gilad]: calendar that is unique to the jewish
people that will allow them to create some

[gilad]: kind of a communal reality that is
outside of the on going christian unification of

[gilad]: the world so in very short terms
repetition repetition of time is essential for

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: world redemption exactly because it creates the
unicity of the jewish people for and this

[gilad]: unicity of the jewish people provide the
content for the world redemption of it

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: create it is led by the christian
world and this is one example out of

[gilad]: three different for both high repetition is
foundational to the possibility of redater

[pj_wehry]: just soaking that in for a second
i apologize for all the coughing i have

[pj_wehry]: three kids who are basically just petri
dishes so

[gilad]: ye

[pj_wehry]: we are we all passed around the
cold this last week m

[gilad]: ah

[pj_wehry]: that's fascinating trying to remember the name
of the book i remember reading a book

[pj_wehry]: on festivals um and how important they
are for the creation of time and

[pj_wehry]: the idea of heat found foundational not
just not just week to week but even

[pj_wehry]: like in those fifty year jubilee kind
of periods that's that's really

[pj_wehry]: just i'm just sitting with that for
a second yeah

[pj_wehry]: so what would be the models of
messianism for someone like kaka

[gilad]: yeah so sekafkahas is also related to
curkamaybe just before that just

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: to to clarify what we mean by
by by models of repetition in time so

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: think for example of the experience of
of myself someone who i was born and

[gilad]: raised in israel and a and came
to united states and the moment for me

[gilad]: of how different my world is community
is when i realize that while back in

[gilad]: israel my reality is one of certain
festival celebrated in certain times of the year

[gilad]: and then

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: coming united states and at the moment
of those festivals the world is just as

[gilad]: the same there is nothing that is
happening outside there is no experience of festival

[gilad]: and how this really showed break between
my experience of the community and he community

[gilad]: outside and how you could really find
in the in like three prayers in the

[gilad]: day that the jewish are practising or
five prayers as the most are practicing a

[gilad]: kind of arithrhythm that produces community and
to command it's really a material way to

[gilad]: think about common unity and if you
are thinking about that very seriously

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: this is a way to to differentiate
between two communities if i'm working under a

[gilad]: different calendar if i'm even if i'm
eating at eight o'clock in the night and

[gilad]: some other people eat at five o
clock p m it really makes a very

[gilad]: different community very differen reality in which
we are

[pj_wehry]: ye

[gilad]: living and what basically reason suggest that
this kind

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: of

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: reality is foundational for redemption now the
stormy with kava is very different it's one

[gilad]: that is based on on on on
a later that i'm sorry about that

[pj_wehry]: no worries

[gilad]: so what you have in

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: kaa is an interesting letter that he
writes in nineteen twenty one about a series

[gilad]: of abram that that supposedly did not
answer did not answer to god call to

[gilad]: sacrifice isaac so the binding of isaac
is a theme of this later but it's

[gilad]: actually something that hat does not happen
because kaka believes that there is it described

[gilad]: in this letter how we this abrams
are actually not responding to god's call to

[gilad]: sacrifice ice so he's describing someone who
is too busy to to go to mount

[gilad]: moriah or another one who doesn't believe
it's even been cold for that god even

[gilad]: talks to him or asks him to
do such a thing and what's fascinating in

[gilad]: this story is that it's it is
or is this letter that many consider to

[gilad]: be response to kikigod's own work on
on abraham is that in his repetition what

[gilad]: you find

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: is a structure refusal that basically

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: disrupt the meanin of a cohesive iscurnible
abraham in a way that because of the

[gilad]: repetition of the story the fact that
there are different figures of abraham with different

[gilad]: stories of abraham you are uhkafkais basically
able to to show us how the mere

[gilad]: figure ever collapses under repetition and because
of that there is this in bility to

[gilad]: even stronger in ability to respond to
god's calling and and the messianic dimension of

[gilad]: that story which i find fascinated is
also is found in the idea that what

[gilad]: kafkisbasically telling us is how we can
find in each and every moment and more

[gilad]: than one story so if you have

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: in the story of the binding of
the isacstthe official history then caffkarbasically tells us

[gilad]: with this later in my mind how
we can find or identify in the same

[gilad]: event different interpretation or different readings and
these different readings afford us a different reality

[gilad]: and when you think about that the
fact that abraham the one that inaugurates jewish

[gilad]: history than you find in different readings
of the story of abram at least a

[gilad]: literary option to re think jewish history
or different options with in jewish history

[pj_wehry]: are you familiar with the book the
marriage of cadmus and harmony

[gilad]: i honestly can't say i do

[pj_wehry]: um m definitely a shot in the
dark but it's a retelling

[pj_wehry]: it's been it's been a hot minute
but roberto colosso wrote this book and there's

[pj_wehry]: multiple versions of this myth of cadmus
and harmony getting married and he basically tells

[pj_wehry]: the story in all the different variations
of the myth to pull out the different

[pj_wehry]: meanings that are that are possible there
at just obviously saw some correlation there

[gilad]: exactly

[pj_wehry]: does this

[gilad]: yes

[pj_wehry]: go to you mentioned niche at the
beginning of the book as well does this

[pj_wehry]: kind of the idea that the internal
return gives us all possible variations is that

[pj_wehry]: the model of time that we're dealing
here with coca that idea of like all

[pj_wehry]: the interpretations are possible in that repetition

[gilad]: yes exactly so exactly so and that
goes to to a different region of nice

[gilad]: that is very popular in twenty century
french thought that when ice talks about the

[gilad]: internal return it's not talking about how
we re experience the the world returns exactly

[gilad]: like it is but actually the world
returns in different forms and in the context

[gilad]: of kaka it's it's a way to
think about how literature can provide different options

[gilad]: or different realities or different readings to
the same event and if you would like

[gilad]: this is a beginning of thinking

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: radical politics because if you you always
think about how politics is ah you know

[gilad]: there is no option out there is
no way to solve current

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: um challenges then kaka with the repetition
of the story but exactly the petition that

[gilad]: is not the same is able to
provide us a way out of the biting

[gilad]: of isa of the murder of isaac
and in that sense is also providing a

[gilad]: way to think other political challenges so
what you find here is exactly a moment

[gilad]: of difference that that provides other readings
other opportunities other options all of which are

[gilad]: useful to think about political reality

[pj_wehry]: i mean maybe as an example would
that apply from a radical politics standpoint of

[pj_wehry]: not getting stuck thinking capitalism versus marxism
or communism but thinking of like even an

[pj_wehry]: alternate reading between that like just that
re occurring butting of heads or am i

[pj_wehry]: am i thinking about that correctly

[gilad]: i think this is the right way
to go so we we find ourselves trapped

[gilad]: in in a in

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: a very limited series of options or
limited series of ideologies that tend to be

[gilad]: to be unhelpful

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: in some cases and what kaka suggest
is a literally mechanism to feed other options

[gilad]: and i find that to be extremely
valuable exactly in moment in which you would

[gilad]: like to have those options available for
you in terms political action and i think

[gilad]: that's that's the offshoot of and and
when we need to recognize this is as

[gilad]: a kind of a different mechanism from
what we think of so sometimes we think

[gilad]: about means

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: someone who comes from the sky and
saved the world in you know in battle

[gilad]: good against bad but mechanism works differently
in different versions

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: in different

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: periods of time sometimes mechanism is just
one single person meeting a guy or

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: or god sometimes it's violence but sometimes
it's about re creating a reality in a

[gilad]: way that is not possible by current
political circumstances this is messianism too to be

[gilad]: able to think beyond what is achievable
in in what we have in what with

[gilad]: the tools of the political tooth and
concept that we have in our hands today

[gilad]: and in that sense this repetition creates
a messianic option that is valuable man mine

[pj_wehry]: i literally just interviewed last week dr
shell um out at stanford and on his

[pj_wehry]: book poetic thinking today and his whole
thesis was about how we need to make

[pj_wehry]: space to be creative to create a
poetic space in order to open up political

[pj_wehry]: possibility so that's this sounds very very
familiar right now in good ways um so

[pj_wehry]: if i'm if i'm tracking

[gilad]: yes

[pj_wehry]: i think like i think there's some
confluence there that's really interesting so talk to

[pj_wehry]: me a little bit about walter benjamin's
model of messianism

[gilad]: so again this will be a different
story so i think that's

[pj_wehry]: yes

[gilad]: what's interesting about how they're all

[pj_wehry]: ye

[gilad]: very different so if others like things
about messines repetition of some kind of a

[gilad]: social reality in cafca thinks about that
as a literary maneuver but even brings us

[gilad]: back to history and and but he
doesn't think about miss repetition of some kind

[gilad]: of a structure that happened as a
social level but you find that

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: to be

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: more similar to to to kaka about
finding options that are not available in the

[gilad]: present and it goes similar to what
i suggest about kurkgardan maybe it will be

[gilad]: it will clarify how kurkegard thinks about
repetition what basically what um benjamin suggests in

[gilad]: in this book in the kate project
and that is it's a it's a project

[gilad]: that he is doing in nineteen thirty
s in the concept and in this feeds

[gilad]: on the concept of history that he
published in united publish writes in nineteen forty

[gilad]: he has this vision of the world
as pregnant with options or the time as

[gilad]: pregnant with option we call it's now
time and and this now time is every

[gilad]: every each and every moment of our
lives and what beamin suggest is that in

[gilad]: order to see diff the option how
different options are embedded within our moment we

[gilad]: need to think about this moment in
time in a constellation with a different moment

[gilad]: in the past and right beautifully about
how the french revolution was considered to be

[gilad]: a repetition of the roman era the
roman empire

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: in order for the french revolution to
be able to radically change the present and

[gilad]: it suggests that we are able to
to create some differences or to identify differences

[gilad]: in the present by seeing the present
as a repetition of a certain moment in

[gilad]: time so if you would like

[gilad]: one way to think about that is
to think about covid and to say

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: how can we make how can we
change our reality with ovid how can we

[gilad]: radically

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: re invention we invent ourselves our health
system with covid and people i think it

[gilad]: and an interesting way is to think
about covid and how it relates to the

[gilad]: nineteen eighteen an is this is and
to think about that at a moment in

[gilad]: which you identify how there is some
kind of relation that is moving beyond time

[gilad]: so i'm not again so it's kind
of like what kuka suggested there is no

[gilad]: seeing the moment of the present as
as created by a series of events that

[gilad]: brought to this event in the mechanic
for mechanical transition moment but actually as seeing

[gilad]: this moment as im pregnant with reality
that was one hundred years ago in the

[gilad]: spanish of naginating in the spanish disease
and maybe in collided those two moments together

[gilad]: in what in beneminian terms we can
identify a different way to think about our

[gilad]: health system in the united states for
example so uh and we find that this

[gilad]: none this curse no no recursive relations
between a certain event in the present and

[gilad]: a certain event in the past may
create some kind of a constellation dangers which

[gilad]: this is how we cause it that
would be in its term explode

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: the omoganius timing or maybe to say
differently would ange how we understand our present

[gilad]: to the degree that we will able
to see different options so in the same

[gilad]: way that the french identify the possibility
of revelation a revolution by connecting their press

[gilad]: and to the roman empire we can
identify how to change our current reality united

[gilad]: states by finding the relationship with the
spanish deciveinankin team

[pj_wehry]: yeah not sure i'm tracking with that
with that so is the goal to look

[pj_wehry]: and find something similar in the past
in order to examine it for what could

[pj_wehry]: have been done

[gilad]: oh

[pj_wehry]: different back then to use it now
or i'm not sure that i'm i'm not

[pj_wehry]: sure that that's the right well that's
what you're talking about so i'm just trying

[pj_wehry]: to clarify

[gilad]: of course so what i'm saying is
that no the the purpose of this colliding

[gilad]: of two events in time the present
and

[pj_wehry]: hm

[gilad]: certain past is to produce new options
in the present by way of an insight

[gilad]: or some kind of an intuition or
some kind of a revelation from that path

[gilad]: now so uh again and i think
that the french revolution is important here if

[gilad]: we think about the french revolution as
some at the moment over break in history

[gilad]: something that completely new is introduced to
history this newness that is introduced to history

[gilad]: is with because of a relation with
a past event that really change how the

[gilad]: present moment is understood organized and how
options are suddenly become available in it and

[gilad]: so in the same way if you
wanted to

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: think about what could radically change the
health system in united states made me think

[gilad]: about for example how people were treated
in the past in the in the

[pj_wehry]: the spanish

[gilad]: the

[pj_wehry]: flu

[gilad]: spanish flow or how how people were
considering maybe about health regulation

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: and

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: safety

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: maybe about how the system works down
at this period of time something in that

[gilad]: period may be valuable to think differently
about how we deal with covid in the

[gilad]: present again this is just one example
but the idea is to find points of

[gilad]: reference that change how we understand the
present again opening up the prison to other

[gilad]: options that are not available if things
are going in the way that they're going

[gilad]: with this kind of like on going
transition of events that are seem to be

[gilad]: beyond our control

[pj_wehry]: this would this be basically what you're
doing with your book and in some ways

[pj_wehry]: going back to nineteen thirties uh modern
jewish messianism but even what they were doing

[pj_wehry]: feeling alienated and finding solutions by going
back to a tradition that they had lost

[pj_wehry]: is this why they went like in
some ways is that why benjamin is going

[pj_wehry]: back and finding this this tradition that
he had lost

[gilad]: yeah i think this is this is
exactly thank you for that for

[pj_wehry]: okay

[gilad]: that i appreciate it this question because
this is if you would ask why writing

[gilad]: this book is it's about figuring ways
to our models to think about a radical

[gilad]: change political radical change that is built
on some kind religious and messianic thought

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: in a way that these

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: people also did in the past and
what the reason i'm doing that today is

[gilad]: because i find that messianism and religious
thought are usually related to right wing agenda

[gilad]: and people think about epokelyps and mssinism

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: as some some kind of a violent

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: aggressive good against bad kind of like
ideology that is really working well with the

[gilad]: right wing and what i'm trying to
do in this book in the end is

[gilad]: to suggest that there is a moment

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: in our recent history in which people
left wing figures thought of missing it as

[gilad]: a good idea to think about radical
political change and so in that sense i'm

[gilad]: going back to that period as a
way to re think the present and maybe

[gilad]: to suggest other options for politic action
in the present

[pj_wehry]: ye

[gilad]: in the same way that these people
did thinking about their present and how it

[gilad]: relates to past events so yes this
is kind of like a chain of of

[gilad]: going back exactly two order to do
something different from what we are what we

[gilad]: are having or what we are getting
from the usual solution

[pj_wehry]: i think i'm on the same page
with you and i appreciate your patients as

[pj_wehry]: i worked through this um so we've
talked about you use the term colliding is

[pj_wehry]: there a significant difference between colliding these
two together versus say renewing or reclaiming a

[pj_wehry]: past event or tradition

[gilad]: yeah so here we need to be
attuned to what benjamin kind of like suggest

[gilad]: um

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: m in the end for benjamin there
is a reading of benjamin as suggesting some

[gilad]: he is looking for some kind of
a of a violent radical solution that

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: and it's not i would say in
some reading is not extremely worried of that

[gilad]: being not peaceful solution so and you
can say reclaiming would be more attuned with

[gilad]: kind of a more peaceful

[pj_wehry]: ah ah

[gilad]: attentive kind of of a reading of
the past what find benjamin to be again

[gilad]: i'm not the only one understand him
this way is that he has this kind

[gilad]: of of an understanding that sometimes solutions
to right or to critical problems like fatalism

[gilad]: and anticism anticemetism needs to be understood
in terms like the strikes and may be

[gilad]: violence strikes of the of the prolater

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: it or some kind of radical revolution
that may be violent now whether i'm absolutely

[gilad]: on board with him i'm not sure
but i would say that least in benamenry

[gilad]: and there is this kind of an
understanding of what needs to be done

[pj_wehry]: oh yeah and i think i understand
the difference then there there's this idea of

[pj_wehry]: when we use the past it's confronting
us would that be would that be a

[pj_wehry]: fair even even if the solution doesn't
end up being violent in the here and

[pj_wehry]: now the the collision is violent because
of what the past demands from us or

[pj_wehry]: this trade tion

[gilad]: yes this is really nice this is
beautifully put yes i agree

[pj_wehry]: okay ah that makes sorry this kind
of a long like i feel like i'm

[pj_wehry]: on the same page now appreciate that
the so and i want to be conscious

[pj_wehry]: of your time but do you mind
talking about froid fine lee and froid's model

[pj_wehry]: of messianism

[gilad]: yeah so and here again we find
a very different version of over petition one

[gilad]: that that plays more closely i would
say with rodenlintan benaminand kafca and the story

[gilad]: is a bit longer so i'm sorry
about that so

[pj_wehry]: no worries

[gilad]: more mother moth we're talking about foidanotisand
monitisan books that he writes in just when

[gilad]: he's living escaping austria and lives to
to london and in this book for to

[gilad]: explain jewish history and you find that
in the beginning of that in moses specifically

[gilad]: i understand moses to be prince an
egyptian prince and a jewish prince that

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: that uuhmonotism is introduced to egypt just
before and is an ardent believer in monotheism

[gilad]: but the peril that the king that
that introd monartism to egypt has actually died

[gilad]: and hen the egyptian would like to
return to to their previous religion and so

[gilad]: what mother is doing is basically taking
the jewish people out side of egypt in

[gilad]: order to keep monatisin alive they are
the one that should continue worshiping the only

[gilad]: the one and only god and he
should be their leader so moses is actually

[gilad]: an egypt prince that introduces monartism to
the jewish people

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: fascinating this is not the only drama
that for the notify also argues and it's

[gilad]: not the only ones that argue that
that monortism is so demanding than politism that

[gilad]: the jewish people basically kill him because
they cannot sustain this of demand that moses

[gilad]: ask for them and this murder creates
the jewish people now it's kind of a

[gilad]: long story why and how but what's
important

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: to understand that this murder does not
only the jewish people it actually creates also

[gilad]: the christian christianity as a response to
the murder as well so what you have

[gilad]: you have the murder

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: of moses and then the her response

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: to this murder to the trauma of
this murder you have the creation of the

[gilad]: jewish people and then the creation of
christianity now what's for it is actually suggesting

[gilad]: that the jewish people have a certain
quality or character which he defines as pirituality

[gilad]: or guys tish guy in german or
maybe reason would be another way to produce

[gilad]: a till there are rational human the
rational sus it because of how they respond

[gilad]: to the murder and it also says
that christianity is a religion of sensuality exactly

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: because of how it responds to them
or because what

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: he says really

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: nicely he says that what you have
with with jesus is an attempt to relinquish

[gilad]: the guilt of the murder of moses
from the from the entire terity of the

[gilad]: world and so jesus kind of like
sacrifices himself for the murder of moses and

[gilad]: he's saying that by

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: doing that he is able to to
stop this over rutialilization or stigma stagnation of

[gilad]: the jewish community and allow some kind
of sensuality to be brought back to their

[gilad]: religion so what you have is

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: is relation between sensuality and reason in
history as it is prescribed by two different

[gilad]: religions and but for it suggests that
this kind of like creation of two different

[gilad]: versions of religious organizations is something that
happens again and again in history so in

[gilad]: in a way each and every murder
create it's a different kind of over society

[gilad]: over religion according to those two patterns
so you have either reason or sensuality and

[gilad]: if you would like we can imagine
what what is the murder of j k

[gilad]: how it creates

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: its own kind of a religious

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: structure or maybe

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: how the murder of robin another kind
of moses in a atrellprie ter robin is

[gilad]: another form of the creation of a
jewish over such a religious structure and the

[gilad]: inter the interaction between those differ kind
of religious organization is in my mind a

[gilad]: way to think about seriously about what
how can we figure the duality of reason

[gilad]: and sensuality in history so and with
fraid we can see in what way reason

[gilad]: and sensuality are actually interchangeable in a
sense that they are responses to the same

[gilad]: event so in a way they are
like different or distinct form of responses to

[gilad]: the same event and in that they
are interchangeable because but suggest is that what

[gilad]: you have is a response to the
murder by way of of reason and then

[gilad]: a response to the murder by way
of sensuality and then another by way of

[gilad]: reason and what you have is an
ongoing interplay of reason and sensuality in history

[gilad]: that show how this very foundational

[gilad]: dualism between reason and sensuality is actually
much more interchangeable and something that much more

[gilad]: huh complicated in this kind of like
clear distinction between them so and this is

[gilad]: a messianic thought in a sense that
it clears away it's not messianic in a

[gilad]: sense that it brings new in it
actually cleans us away or ms or helps

[gilad]: us think again about how we find
this essential inherent dualism over the western world

[gilad]: between reason and sensuality that we have
all the way from paul in different ways

[gilad]: so this is kind of like a

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: way to think differently about concepts not
only about religious political principles

[pj_wehry]: and that's for him that's largely a
therapeutic thing about achieving wholeness within ourselves

[gilad]: exactly so you would like what you've
got is an attempt to heal not person

[gilad]: or an individual but to heal us
from this kind of division is in a

[gilad]: sense to understand what is psychanalysi is
exactly to understand the division between the conscious

[gilad]: conscience reason and sensuality and finally is
thus work for diversity suggest to be healed

[gilad]: from that division a way maybe to
think about them interacting more differently or interacting

[gilad]: in a more an more dynamic way
so you have

[pj_wehry]: oh

[gilad]: in a way a story about history
that is basically one that helps us to

[gilad]: think about what breaks us into two
very different dimensions that ford would like us

[gilad]: to think about them harmonize more peacefully
than what we we we think of usually

[gilad]: oh

[pj_wehry]: excellent as we wrap up what's last
thing that you would leave to our listeners

[pj_wehry]: about dynamic repetition

[gilad]: yah

[pj_wehry]: and this way of thinking uhcelvifically messionically
about about their time and their history

[gilad]: yeah thank you for that so this
this book is working on different registers it

[gilad]: walks about it talks about

[pj_wehry]: yeah

[gilad]: the manamic repetition of some kind of
philosophical structure that you find modern philosophy in

[gilad]: kkagardend nice ways said something about them
it also works on religion but i think

[gilad]: that and about how machine plays out
in a certain period in jewish history which

[gilad]: are found to be really important but
it really is a

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: book about how we can useful usefully
think about the place of religion within politics

[gilad]: in a way that secular politics secular
left wing politics seems to be impossible so

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: it's a way to and i think
that if there is one thing i would

[gilad]: like us to take from this book
is how we can find ideas of mescinism

[gilad]: that seems to be extremely violent extremely

[pj_wehry]: hm

[gilad]: um dangerous ideals that

[pj_wehry]: m

[gilad]: are usually at the hend of right
in politics as something that could be useful

[gilad]: to think also for them for left
wing propaganda

[pj_wehry]: absolutely dr charvet just absolute pleasure having
you on today thank you

[gilad]: thank you so much