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Two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions.
Raven Sinner (00:01)
Thanks for watching!
Pisha (00:26)
Hello derangers. Welcome back to Deranged De Jure, the podcast bringing you your two favorite and most deranged lawyers. I am Pisha and I'm here with my co-host and we're here to discuss our deranged obsessions. This month it has all been right wing extremism and we talked about Ruby Ridge last week. This week.
Raven (00:41)
Raven.
Pisha (00:54)
We're talking about Waco, but first Raven, let me ask you this. If Jim Jones and David Koresh were in a fist fight, who would win?
Raven (01:06)
Jim Jones. Why? Okay.
Pisha (01:07)
Shut, no, it's definitely Koresh. I'm sorry, you're wrong. You are wrong in this hypothetical fist fight because David Koresh was built and in fact had some great guns, both literally and figuratively, like arm sense.
Raven (01:27)
I mean, you may be right about that. I'm just thinking like Jim Jones killed like over a thousand people. I think Koresh only had like, yeah, it is, yeah. So.
Pisha (01:33)
His body counts higher is what you're saying. Yeah, but that guy was like a kind of like overweight, sweaty little bitch. No offense, Jim Jones. Oops. Oh man. Um, so that was informative and
Raven (01:44)
Fair. No. You know?
Yes, this is the kind of content that you're here for really. Fair. I think we've got 41. Also, we are going to the True Crime and Paranormal Convention, which is coming up. So if anybody knows anybody going or has any well wishes or anything, any advice, any...
Pisha (01:59)
That's it. That's why everyone comes to listen to us, all four of our listeners, two of which are our moms. Dang, we're moving on.
Raven (02:26)
anything really about us going, please let us know.
Pisha (02:30)
I'm so stoked about it. This is my birthday gift, everybody. And we're gonna learn so much, and we get to use their recording studio and stuff.
Raven (02:32)
Me too. Yeah.
It's gonna be fun. Yeah, we've got a lot to prepare for, but I'm super excited about it. We've been having a lot of fun of like, you know, getting our logos ready, all kinds of things. So having a lot of arguments.
Pisha (02:41)
It's gonna be fun.
Like all the administrative. No, no, not a lot of arguments. We had our one first major argument. It wasn't even an argument. It was a disagreement and we've already resolved it. So it's fine. Everyone can relax. This duo is not breaking up.
Raven (03:09)
Listen, I think this marriage is gonna last.
Pisha (03:11)
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna fight through these battles. You're not always gonna see eye to eye, you know? And so we recognize that and we're gonna work with each other. We're a team. I love it, I love it. Well, I'm excited because we are here today talking about Waco. Wake up, Waco, to a little bit of gunfire. We're talking about the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidians.
Raven (03:18)
That's true.
Yeah, I'm always and forever. Yeah.
Pisha (03:42)
So first of all, before we get into it, I want to go on record that I absolutely changed my mind and
Raven (03:42)
Ooh.
Pisha (03:52)
take back everything I said about Ruby Ridge because after learning about Waco, I was like, okay, these guys were a cult. Maybe this response was slightly more appropriate. Although,
I even argued that it wasn't appropriate in this case too. But looking at Ruby Ridge, it was a family of five idiot racists. Like, what the heck? I 100% changed my mind. It was absolutely overreach. I see that now. And I think what's great about how we're doing this and we're like learning the escalation of the right-wing extremism, we might.
better be able to draw the line? Is it somewhere between Ruby Ridge and Waco or is it somewhere between Waco and Oklahoma City, which hopefully we prevent those in the future anyways. But you know what I'm saying, right?
Raven (04:46)
Really? Yeah. I know what you're saying. And I agree with you.
Pisha (04:50)
Well, you always knew.
Raven (04:54)
Yeah, well, nobody else really matters, so that's a thing.
Pisha (04:57)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So now that we've made this clear, let's start talking about Waco. And we absolutely cannot talk about Waco without first talking about David Koresh. I'm sure everyone's heard this name. It's pretty well known. One of the creepy stories was when negotiations was going on with the FBI during all this.
Raven (05:05)
Okay.
Pisha (05:24)
Um, one of the negotiators asked him how he pronounced his name and he said, Have you ever heard a man die? It's like that last exhalation of breath Koresh
Raven (05:37)
Last exhalation of breasts. Sorry.
Pisha (05:39)
Breasts, yeah. Well, I guess now we gotta put that in, so thank you. Oh my God.
Raven (05:50)
You had like this very like good escalation of like how like creepy it actually was because that was such a creepy thing that he said and I'm sorry I ruined it.
Pisha (05:52)
It was so good!
Right, it was creepy. Oh, no, you did not ruin it. It was great. It was the comedic relief we needed for that super like creepy moment. So thank you for that. Yeah, breasts, boobs, boobies.
Raven (06:10)
Breasts.
I will insert all of the boobs that we need in this.
Pisha (06:17)
Hey, feel free to drop a boob occasionally throughout this whole podcast. Let's see what happens. Let's see how many times we can bring up boobs. All right. Moving on with this super serious topic, David Koresh, who is he? He was born Vernon Wayne Howell on August 17th, 1959 in Houston, Texas.
Raven (06:27)
I love it.
Pisha (06:40)
His parents were unmarried, which usually I don't find relevant. However, in this case, his father was a 20 year old and his mother was 14.
Raven (06:50)
Ugh. Gross.
Pisha (06:50)
Yeah, I know. So because she was so young, he was raised by his maternal grandmother until his mother's true identity was revealed when he was around five years old. His mother, I think her name's Bonnie, Bonnie had married Roy Haldeman in 1964 and felt like she was stable enough to raise Vernon at this time.
Raven (07:08)
Mm-hmm.
This kind of reminds me, I hate to say this and I hate to break in here, but of Ted Bundy, doesn't it? A little bit because... Yeah, anyway, keep going.
Pisha (07:21)
No. It really does.
In this case, it wasn't great for David because shortly after Bonnie and Roy got married, they welcomed David's half brother, Roger. He had a great relationship with Roger. However, Haldeman was horribly abusive towards David. And yeah, another kind of red flag. So.
Raven (07:44)
Mwah.
Pisha (07:50)
He did not do well in school. He struggled with dyslexia and possibly other learning disabilities. I don't know if he graduated. I don't know. I can't remember that part, so I apologize. He had a bunch, right? He had a bunch of inappropriate relationships with underage girls, including one that resulted in a baby. The mother who was still a child in her own right.
Raven (07:59)
Hmm, interesting.
Doesn't matter.
Pisha (08:18)
thought that Koresh wasn't fit to be a father, who I think was 19 at the time. And she moved away and refused to let them have a relationship. So, I mean, if this, yeah, right? If she could figure this out, she knew that he was already kind of on this path of just rage and whatever, destruction. But anyways, Koresh ended up changing his name during some weird spiritual,
Raven (08:29)
Smart girl.
Pisha (08:47)
like hippie phase he was having. And eventually in the summer of 1981, I think he was around 21 or 22 years old, he moved to Waco, Texas to be with the Branch Davidians.
Raven (08:58)
Yeah, interesting. Wow. And who are the Branch Davidians, you might be asking yourself. So you don't know, Pisha, but I will tell you. All right. So the Branch Davidians are a sect from the Seventh-day Adventists, which is a very fundamentalist, evangelical type of Christian group.
Pisha (09:04)
I am. I really, really am. I can't wait.
Raven (09:22)
So this group, the branch Davidians, they come from the other Davidians and they branched themselves off as you would.
Um, bye.
Pisha (09:37)
They were like, let's make like a tree and branch Davidian.
Raven (09:41)
Yeah, yeah. So Victor Huteff was like the Davidian guy, and then Ben Rodin came in after him. And Ben Rodin in 1955 decided to create like a new branch off of the just plain old Davidians. And so, you know, you guys have all heard of the Star of David. So obviously this is a biblical like figure.
David that the Davidians are based off of the seventh day. And Adventists, the seventh day Adventists only differ from the fundamentalists in that they believe in like the, God created the world in six days versus seven days. So they're real.
Pisha (10:22)
Why?
Why is all I wanna know? Why does any of that matter? But go, I mean, it does, it does to the story. It's so relevant, but why?
Raven (10:29)
Listen.
Here's the thing, um, I don't know. And you gave me the Bible study this time, and now I get to fuck this up as much as you did.
Pisha (10:44)
So you just shut your mouth. You just shut your mouth and you take my Bible learning. Okay, I will. Back to it, teach.
Raven (10:52)
That's right. Okay, anyway. Okay, so anyway,
Ben Brodin built off of Victor Huteff's Davidian prophecies, I guess that's what you would call it. And he created what was the book called The Shepherd's Rod. No homo.
Pisha (11:15)
Was that the subtitle?
Raven (11:17)
It was like the, yeah, exactly. Yes. Shepard's Rock, no Homo, anyway. So he created this whole set called the Branch Davidians. They ended up moving to Waco, Texas back in the 1950s. And they established what is now known as Mount Carmel. Well, sorry, Mount Carmel.
Pisha (11:20)
That's amazing.
Raven (11:43)
When Ben Rodin died, his wife Lois succeeded him. And so this is all part of like Mount Carmel. And actually, like weirdly enough, this happened during the 1970s. And so Lois, his wife actually tried to establish some feminism into the otherwise patriarchal.
philosophy of like the Davidians and that didn't really work out for her, unfortunately. So when there was like a bunch of like in fighting when Ben died and Lois took over and then there was like George, I think, who came in after that George Roden, the son who tried to take over and ultimately.
came in, a little guy named Vernon
who you might otherwise know as, dun dun, David Koresh. So there was a little bit of a faction between the Rodens and Vernon Howell, who moved his faction to Palestine, Texas, which I didn't even know existed. But is...
super interesting because, you know, in kind of researching this, this is still super relevant today as to why the United States is like very entrenched in the Israel-Palestine conflict and Middle Eastern conflict and the whole idea that there are chosen people.
Pisha (13:13)
Right. It's so frustrating. Like you and I, yeah.
Raven (13:17)
Uh, it's, it's hard. Yeah. It's hard to talk about this as an atheist because there's no chosen people. There's no of this anyway.
Pisha (13:21)
Yeah. And I just, right. Well, and I'm not even an atheist because I don't even care enough to be an atheist. Like, I don't care. I don't care if there's a God or not. Like, honestly, whether I think there is or not is irrelevant to me because I just, it doesn't matter. And so that's how I see it. It's kind of nihilistic, if you think of it.
Raven (13:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Pisha (13:51)
but in a way, yeah, but it's so frustrating as an atheist and I guess a nihilist talking about, these religious groups murdering each other and trying to say they're better than the other just because of what sky wizard they worship. I just, I don't get it. And like the differences between the world being made in six days versus seven days.
Raven (13:52)
I don't disagree with you in any case.
Pisha (14:16)
Who cares? Why does that make a difference today? There are children fucking starving. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah, there's, it's just, it's ridiculous. There's genocide, an active genocide taking place that doesn't matter to me how many days it took to make the Earth.
Raven (14:23)
Yeah, in Palestine. I'm sorry, but.
No.
Yeah, agreed 1000%. Yeah. And I mean, like, I don't I don't want to, like, try and get into the politics of that. But like, this is a aid EID today, the day that Muslims finished Ramadan. And so, so it's interesting that we chose today, like, that was not purposeful in any kind of way. But that we're talking about Palestine, Texas, we're talking about people who think that
Pisha (14:49)
That's right.
Raven (14:58)
for whatever reason, they are the chosen people and other people are not the chosen people. And that only 144,000 people in the planet ever are going to go to heaven. So like, so I mean, I don't know. I mean.
Pisha (15:12)
What's the point in making all the other people then? I just don't understand. If God makes us all, then what's the point of making all the other people that God knows aren't gonna go to heaven? I just don't get it. Whatever, it's getting too philosophical. We need to move on. But the point is, I think the main key here is like, the branch Davidians have this belief that the end, it wasn't really until Koresh took over, right? That they...
Raven (15:18)
I don't know.
Okay.
It became more apocalyptic.
Pisha (15:41)
Apocalyptic, right. And before then, it was more about we are the chosen people. We want to live in our own society, which is not corrupt, and your society is corrupt. So it didn't... Right. So the Branch Davidians were more like that and less cult... I don't know. I think they're culty all the time. But anyways, like they...
Raven (15:55)
Right. Exactly.
Pisha (16:06)
They didn't shift until Koresh took over. And so how did that happen? And like what transpired after?
Raven (16:10)
Sure. Well.
Well, I mean, I guess you could probably argue that the Branch Davidians were culty beforehand because the shepherd's rod, no homo, was a little culty, we'll just put it that way. And the reason that they moved to Waco, Texas was very similar, and so we're gonna try and tie it together, Ruby Ridge, with Waco. So the Branch Davidians were very much a part, like,
Pisha (16:24)
Good point. Good, good point.
Raven (16:41)
of this idea that society in America was not doing what it should be and so they're going to go off and become their own thing. And that's why the branch Davidians became their thing.
The Koreshians? We're going to call it the... Yes. The Koreshians. It does, yeah. Which, maybe there's some similarities there. Oh, gross. Anyway.
Pisha (16:57)
The post-Koresh branch Davidians? Yeah, the Koreshian. It sounds too much like Kardashian.
No thanks.
Raven (17:11)
So post-Rodan, so Rodan ended up going insane, which is like this whole thing ended up like so insane and so interesting. So Rodan and Koresh, who was then Howell, had these major conflicts between them. And so Rodan, he had his people at Waco and at Mount Carmel and Koresh had his people who...
Again, he was Howl at the time in Palestine, and he was paying attention to what was going on. And he really, I think he had his eye on becoming the new leader of Waco. Anyway.
Pisha (17:44)
Well, yeah, well, no, I agree because I thought that I heard somewhere floating around in one of the many documentaries and podcasts we've been listening and watching on this. But one of them said that Koresh like planned this takeover of the branch Davidians pretty early. In fact, when Lois was still in power.
Raven (18:07)
Yes.
Pisha (18:07)
And, and, and didn't he like try to get her pregnant and stuff because her child was going to be like the Holy child or something. And it was some weird shit. He really did. He really did. But like, I, I think I remember hearing that this like 80 year old woman did end up getting pregnant. And that led him to believe that he was literally God.
Raven (18:18)
Listen, David Koresh tried to get everybody pregnant, so.
Pisha (18:37)
because he knocked up an 80 year old who miscarried, of course, she's 80. Yeah, and could she have maybe not been pregnant before? Maybe it was gas?
Raven (18:37)
Yeah.
80, right, exactly, yeah.
Who knows? This is a good question.
Pisha (18:52)
I don't know. I'm just saying like the point is this whole like weird debauchery with Lois Rodin ended up with the split. And then I think Koresh just kicked her out, right? And like then George went off and tried to start his own thing. And he'd been in like you said, Koresh was watching going, okay, I'm ready to take over when you're ready.
Raven (19:16)
So a little bit, you're onto something, yes. So the thing is that, so Ben Rodin was the dad and then George Rodin was the child, but Ben was starting to like kind of lose his marbles a little bit. And so, but he, like he was the leader of the branch Davidians at the time. And...
Pisha (19:20)
Okay.
Raven (19:40)
were just certain things that he was doing that obviously like David Koresh or Howell at the time, Vernon Howell at the time, which is like so much less of like an intimidating name. Like if he was just called Vernon Howell his whole life, like no one would have taken him seriously at all. Yeah.
Pisha (19:55)
Yeah.
Like, hey Vern, hey Vern, what do you got over there? Guns? Vernon.
Raven (20:01)
Vernon. No one cares. Anyway.
George had taken over. Ben was dead at this point. And he was trying to like live up to
exhuming some bodies when he was there. They're trying to live kind of on their own accord, under their own rule. Like it's very much along the same lines of like the Ruby Ridge people. So these are people who are trying to distinguish themselves. And like, you know, they'll talk about like religious persecution and all those things. There's so much that we can't even get into as to like religious freedom as to like
personal freedoms, those kinds of things. But one of the things that they had done that the George had done when he was there was that he exhumed a body. And in Texas, there's a law against desecrating bodies. So David Koresh, then Howell, took, I think there was like seven of his disciples.
We'll call him that. His henchmen, his henchmen. I think that's like the more proper term because they were just trying to get him in trouble. So they came onto the property and Rodin found them and there ended up being like a gunfight that ensued as a result. So interestingly,
Pisha (21:06)
Sure, his little henchmen's.
Raven (21:26)
that gunfight ended with Rodin getting shot. He didn't die. And so Vernon Howell, David Koresh was actually charged and ended up with a mistrial in this case. Like he did not get in trouble for shooting Rodin. And so he probably started to feel like God.
Pisha (21:47)
Yeah, very invincible at this point. You've knocked up an 80 year old and you've gotten away with basically almost murder. Attempted murder at least, yeah.
Raven (21:53)
Murder. Attempted, attempted murder. And all of his henchmen were acquitted.
just, it's crazy how that happened. So in the midst of all of this, Rodin loses, like I said, he had lost his faculties at this point. He's nuts. And he believes that David Koresh is after him, Howell is after him. And he then murders another guy. He murders,
Yeah, this, I mean, it's just like, it's... So this guy, Waymond Dale Adair, he claims that David Koresh has sent him out to murder him. And so it's all in self-defense,
Pisha (22:23)
I gotta murder someone!
Raven (22:38)
so Rodin ends up pleading, like his lawyers plead insanity for him. He's insane. And so he's out of the picture. As soon as that happens, David Koresh moves his way into Waco and becomes the leader of the
Um, so now David Koresh becomes the branch Davidian leader and shit goes fucking haywire. So he, taught the branch Davidians that he was actually the Messiah. I think he was basically, he changed his name in 1990 to David Koresh from Vernon Howell, which is not a very biblical name, so he changed his name to become
also known as angel warrior of the Armageddon, which is like the best. Yes. So.
Pisha (23:24)
What?
Oh, I didn't know it had some secret fun meaning. Oh, wow, okay. Well, now we know. Okay, so this is definitely when he starts like switching the mindset and being like, the apocalypse is coming and it's the government.
Raven (23:34)
Mm-hmm. Scary.
Yeah, exactly right. And so he brings people along with him. So and the thing about David Koresh, Vernon Howell, is that he's been a pedophile his entire life. Like you made reference to it earlier on. Like he is he is a creep. He's a terrible human being. He uses his power that he's able to establish through becoming a cult leader in order to victimize and prey on girls, the young.
like children, girls, like, exactly. And so all of this starts happening and he's preaching that the more children that he bears, they're going to have like, I don't know, like be more like the Messiah. Like this is all.
Pisha (24:14)
Yeah, like as young as like 10, 11 years old.
It was, I think it was like, okay, so something to do with like the 24 children of God are saved. They become the next generation of saved individuals. So basically he thinks that he's repopulating the earth after this Armageddon with his seed. Yeah.
Raven (24:36)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Exactly.
his own seed. Mm hmm. Exactly. Right. And so and so that's how he like sells these people on and like again, I can't we got to get into like the psychology of cults at some point. I don't understand how he was able to get people to buy into his crazy shit. But people, you know, have all kinds of experiences and they
tend to believe things that, you know, they might not ultimately, like otherwise have, have believed in darker times. And so anyway, he ends up getting this full following to believe that he's the Messiah and that they are, it's them against the world essentially. And that he needs to have as many children as possible in order to, I don't know, whatever it is.
Pisha (25:41)
Well, and as many children as possible with virgins, which means they're like young children. And I just want to point out at the time, the age of consent with permission from parents, which by the way, how creepy is that? Like, hey, can I bang your daughter? Like, it was 14 at the time. And no, at the time it was 14 with parental consent.
Raven (25:45)
with virgins.
is 17.
Oh, I thought I was 17.
Okay.
Pisha (26:09)
If you went to the parents and said, hey, can I bang your daughter? You know, it was fine. And they said yes. It was okay if they were 14. And so just few obvious things wrong with that. One, it has nothing to do with the consent of the daughter herself, the girl, the daughter herself. It's the parents consent. And also 14 is really young. The Davidians claim that
David never harmed anyone who wasn't an adult in their belief system. But in their belief system, they believed girls came of age at 12. So they kind of admit that, hey, he didn't have, you know, sex with underage girls, but he did have sex with girls who were of age in our mind, which is underage.
your mind. So, you know, it was their weird convoluted logic. So, I just thought it was really interesting because with a lot of the girls, he was able to get the parental consent, was the argument. And so...
Raven (27:03)
Okay.
Right, right. Well, this is like, this is very analogous to the Mormons, like the fundamentalist Mormons, right? Like, I mean, they're, they have the same belief that like their daughters need to be controlled by somebody and it's either going to be the father or their next husband. And so the earlier that they get the daughter out of the way, the easier it is on that family, which is like really terrible to think about. But
In any case, I think it's 17 to marry. Like I think that's the difference between what you're talking about and what I'm talking about. Like the age of consent to marry is 17 at the time. And then, yeah, so. So.
Pisha (27:52)
Got it.
Yeah, no, this, this strictly had to do with banging. Yeah. So gross. Ew, for minors, they're children.
Raven (27:58)
Banging.
Which is disgusting. I mean, it's horrible. They are children. He is a pedophile. He's a literal pedophile. It's disgusting. And you'd think that was what the FBI was interested in. And that's what they claimed at certain points in time when that benefited them. But ultimately what they were concerned about was that David Koresh and his following
Pisha (28:10)
Ugh.
Raven (28:30)
developed a whole arms
firearms that they were openly kind of saying that they were going to be using against the federal government should they like quote unquote need to. So.
Pisha (28:43)
Yeah, and a lot of these guns were like illegally modified. So they were automatic. And I think they had like upwards of 1.4 million rounds of ammunition and they had like grenades and stuff.
Raven (28:53)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah. so the interesting thing is like, you know, the, conspiracy theories all kind of revolve around this idea that the government is, is out to get your guns. And in Waco, it kind of proved to be true, unfortunately, because obviously the Branch Davidians were engaged in some really heinous shit with involving like
molesting children, but they weren't able to prove any of that. Like the, I think the, what is it, Child Protective Services of Texas came in. and because they're so brainwashed, they're not talking to them and they're not able to prove what they were hoping to prove as far as like child, child abuse, like true, like in terrible child abuse, which came out later as being absolutely horrifying.
But what they ultimately became most invested in was the fact that these people had guns. So anyway, David Koresh married a 14-year-old girl, Rachel Jones, and had several kids. I think he had kids with 12 of the people there. They later talked about these.
Pisha (30:03)
Yeah.
Raven (30:07)
sessions that he would these late night sessions and you would hope that he would choose you to have sex with because yeah I mean people who have no clue about life the universe and everything so
Pisha (30:17)
Ew.
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, this all leads. I mean, this intrigue in the guns leads to search and arrest warrants being issued against Koresh and the Branch Davidians and the Branch Davidian complex. So you're right, they were concerned about the child molestation, but they didn't want to wait.
for the weeks and months and possibly years it could take to prove all of that. Whereas one day they were outside and they heard automatic weapons firing and that was surefire evidence that they needed to get the search warrant and the arrest warrant to serve on Koresh and the Branch Davidians. so on
February 28th, 1993, the ATF planned to serve these search and arrest warrants related to the gun allegations during a surprise daylight raid. Not a great time to catch people off their guard, but whatever. Yeah, it was early in the morning. Yeah, it was early in the morning, but the sun was out, bro. It was...
Raven (31:31)
in the middle of the day when the sun is out.
I'm sorry.
Pisha (31:39)
out full blown. And so anyways, the right. So on February 28th, 1993, this raid was supposed to take place. The media gets tipped off on the ATF raid and a reporter gets lost on his way to the compound and asks a US Postal Service mail carrier for directions. Problem. The mail carrier was a branch Davidian.
Raven (31:42)
Surprise!
Pisha (32:04)
And he immediately went to the compound to warn Koresh and the branch Davidians. And so I thought it was interesting that this guy worked for the enemy. The, the U S postal service, but whatever. It's fine. He went, he did his job. He told Koresh and the Davidians and they were fully armed and prepared when the ATF showed up. They showed up in these like cute little tarp covered horse trailers with like
Raven (32:13)
Yeah.
Pisha (32:31)
70 agents packed inside. I don't know, maybe not that much, but they drive these trucks up and it's like, oh, what's under that tarp? I have no idea what's coming. And then all these ATF guys jump out and essentially ambush the property. The feds had an inside undercover agent who reported to the ATF that they had been tipped off. And they said, eh.
Raven (32:35)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (32:55)
Fuck it and went for it anyway without the element of surprise, which many of the agents believed was critical to the success of the operation. So they go in with their horse trailers and there's a lot of conflicting stories on who shot first, but a violent gunfight erupts, killing and wounding many on each side. I'm kind of inclined to believe after hearing all of the witness statements and the testimony of the ATF agents that the first to fire.
was the ATF when they killed all of the branch Davidians dogs which were contained in a kennel.
If you wanted someone to believe that you were bringing them in peacefully and you weren't just gonna kill them on site, I'm not sure killing their dogs that are contained in kennels and not interfering with your operation, I don't know how that would indicate that to them. Not at all, not at all. So they killed the goddamn dogs, I'm so mad about it. I'm inclined to believe that the ATF shot first.
Raven (33:53)
Not the right message. Not the right message to send to people, no.
Pisha (34:03)
at the dogs, maybe not the branch Davidians but we don't know who started firing at who first. The argument goes that the agent at the door identified themselves, tried to serve the search warrant or whatever, and then an automatic rifle pointed out at him. So that's the story, but the shooting...
Raven (34:27)
So he like accidentally goes and shoots all the dogs?
Pisha (34:30)
Yeah, accidentally just shot the dogs before all of that happened. But, you know, anyways, the shooting lasted about two hours and only stopped when the ATF ran out of ammunition. Is that not nuts? It's so insane. And so we'll talk more about casualties, but lots of lives were lost that day. So.
Raven (34:47)
That is nuts. Yeah.
Pisha (34:55)
So what happened next was the ATF retreated with their tails tucked between their legs. And this kind of emboldens the Branch Davidians. They feel like they've won. And yeah, they kind of have, they really have. Before the ATF tucks tail completely in runs, they established contact with Koresh from the inside of the compound. And...
Raven (35:06)
Mm-hmm. We kind of have at this point, right?
Pisha (35:21)
And the FBI took command soon after as a result of the death of the federal agents. kind of the same thing with Ruby Ridge, right? Where it was the marshals handling the service of the warrants, but the FBI took over following the marshals death. So, that's kind of same thing here. We had some ATF agents die. And so the FBI took command placing Jeff Jamar.
head of the Bureau San Antonio Field Office in charge of the siege as site commander. The FBI at that point cut Davidian communication to the outside world completely. The only contact they had for like the next 51 days with the outside was by telephone with a group of like 25 negotiators. So they started cutting off their communication to the outside world, no press conferences, things like that, things that could have
emboldened them further, right? If they got the attention of the national media and people started paying attention to their story, it might have the catastrophic effect of emboldening the Branch Davidians more. So in the first few days, the FBI kind of believed that they had made a breakthrough.
because they had negotiated with Koresh an agreement that the branch Davidians would peacefully leave the compound in return for a message recorded by Koresh and then being broadcast on like National Christian Radio or something. And I was like, oh, cool, that's a cool solution. I don't listen to that. No one listens to that. I assume no one does, no one cares. So I was like, yeah, do that, do that. So the broadcast was made.
Raven (36:51)
Sure. No one cares.
Pisha (37:01)
But Koresh then told negotiators that God told him to remain in the building and quote unquote wait. And there was this weird biblical event in his mind and he's being told to wait and whatever. I don't know. So despite this, soon afterwards, negotiators still managed to facilitate the release of 19 children ranging from five months to 12 years old without their parents.
However, a few random straggler parents came out during the siege at some point. But on April 14th, this is what? This is two weeks into the siege, Koresh released a letter to his lawyer, Dick DeGaron, that would prove to be his last communication with the outside world.
Raven (37:35)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (37:53)
In it, he claimed to be writing down an interpretation of the seven seals of the book of Revelation, promising to exit the compound as soon as it was completed. The seven seals, my limited understanding is that the seven seals can't be opened by anyone. Oh wait, but yes they can. They can be opened by the Lamb of God. And David Koresh has declared, the Lamb of God.
Raven (38:20)
Who happens to be the Lamb of God?
Pisha (38:23)
And yeah, he declares himself the lamb of God. And he's like, I'm going to open up the seven seals. And with each seal, new apocalyptic terror takes place until the seventh, which I don't know. I don't know. Look it up, everybody. Try to make sense of it for me because I can't. But he was like, oh, just give me some. Oh, wait, it wasn't two weeks in. Oh, my God. It was it was like two months in. Oh, my God. OK.
Raven (38:47)
Two months, two months. Yeah, I was gonna correct you, but I wasn't gonna go there. It's okay, yeah. Yeah.
Pisha (38:51)
Thank you. No, no, no. We figured that out now. Sorry, everyone. This is like two months later. But the point is that he wants to write this book of the seven seals, and all he requests from the FBI negotiators is two days per seal. And apparently that's as long as it takes to write. But the Bible took like 600 years, I think, something. I don't know. Yeah.
Raven (39:16)
Sure.
Pisha (39:17)
But the problem is the feds were really growing and impatient and were like, you get five days. And basically the final assault happened. So the negotiators believed that the hostage and rescue team, the FBI hostage and rescue team,
Raven (39:26)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (39:36)
decision to move was premature and undercut negotiations. You're gonna talk a little bit now about this rescue team. They're kind of, they're kind of crazy.
Raven (39:44)
I might. We'll think about it. Yeah. Well, I mean, that kind of explains to me the whole idea. So like if he only had how many days, like two days per seal, is that right?
Pisha (39:58)
Well, yeah, he requested 14 days to write the whole book. And the FBI ended up giving him five because they ended up doing that final assault on April 19th.
Raven (40:05)
Okay, which is.
Well, that would explain why there were so many misspellings in the book of seals.
Pisha (40:18)
Well, and also he was dyslexic.
Raven (40:21)
Oh yeah, well there you go. I mean, obviously the lamb of God is going to be dyslexic. Like, God chooses his neurodivergence. He loves them the most.
Pisha (40:27)
Right. He's gonna struggle like the real man.
I love that. Yeah. Exactly. That's right. But tell us a little bit about this FBI hostage rescue team because they were violent.
Raven (40:36)
Which is why he's chosen us to tell, to retell you the story of David Koresh yes.
Oh my God, they'd be wild. So the hostage rescue team, as they were called. So this whole thing, I mean, you know, kind of to put it in broader perspective, I mean, like at this point, we're talking about two months in, two months in about, at least where you left off. And there are tanks coming in. This is a very, like, I mean, people are remembering Ruby Ridge at this point. And so...
not only are they remembering Ruby Ridge, they are Ruby Ridge. So the commander, Richard Rogers, was previously involved with Ruby Ridge. And he was also the hostage negotiator for, or the commander, I'm sorry, for Waco. So it's not even like they tried to change characters. This is all part of the same plan.
Pisha (41:39)
So it's the same FBI hostage rescue team commander, Richard Rogers, okay. Right, he did so great at Ruby Ridge, so great.
Raven (41:45)
Mm-hmm exactly, which was so effective clearly so obviously they brought him in
Right. And so and so that's part of the problem is they're dealing with the same people. There's a whole lot of like mistrust in the federal government at this point. And so Richard Rogers is not the greatest, you know, spoiler alert person to be negotiating like a, quote unquote, like hostage situation.
So you would think that you would have like a hostage negotiator, you had a commander who was very much treating this like a military operation. And so that's part of the problem between Ruby Ridge and Waco is that the FBI was very much treating like was calling these like hostage negotiations when it was like a military operation.
Pisha (42:34)
I think he was the one doing the tactical siege planning. And that's where the issue was, was that you had the FBI negotiators working on one side, a different department, and then you had the hostage rescue team, which was the tactical like SWAT team, shoot them up type guys. And those guys were totally undercutting the negotiations by doing all this bullshit. And yeah.
Raven (42:50)
Mm-hmm.
Right, right, right.
Pisha (43:01)
And what was some of the bullshit, like for the whole 51 days, what were they doing?
Raven (43:07)
Yeah, so as a hostage rescue team, as one would do, as you would think would obviously rescue hostages, they started employing basically torture tactics, including auditory, what is it called?
Pisha (43:23)
called agitation and deprivation techniques. Sorry, I went deep down this rabbit hole.
Raven (43:25)
That's it. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, well, in any case, they were
like, rooster calls, they were playing really annoying music. They were just at all hours of the day. I'm trying to think of the one song, like it became like, that's, these boots were made for walking, that's the one. Mm-hmm.
Pisha (43:42)
Oh, Nancy Sinatra's, these boots are made for walking. Yep, they played that one over and over.
Raven (43:49)
And so they're really basically just trying to agitate rather than actually doing what their namesake says, which is to rescue the hostages that are inside. If you listen to the interviews with the people who were inside at the time, I think that there could have been, and there were, I mean, there were some successful rescues from some of the people who were inside who let...
the children out or who would speak to the FBI. But instead of actually trying to engage with that and trying to work with that, what they would do is just antagonize and make things so much worse and try to make life inside of Mount Carmel so bad that they would make the people come
Pisha (44:39)
The hostage rescue team was just the suited up, guys who have been waiting all their life for this assault, for this moment, and they wanted to take revenge for the deaths of the federal agents, and they were growing impatient waiting. They didn't wanna sit around and wait on the negotiators.
Moreover, there was bad coordination and communication between the two departments, the negotiations and the rescue team. So like shit just was not going well and it all culminated 51 days later in flames. So newly appointed US Attorney General Janet Reno or as we affectionately know her the Queen of Babylon.
A little call back to Ruby Ridge and our friend Vicki Weaver. Vicki! But anyway, so the Queen of Babylon was recently appointed and approved recommendations by the FBI hostage rescue team to mount an assault after being told that conditions were deteriorating and that children were being abused inside the compound.
Raven (45:24)
Right.
Thank you.
Pisha (45:53)
The FBI hostage rescue team kind of goes over the heads of the negotiators and they're like, we're tired of waiting around. We're going for it. And so what Janet Reno used to justify this assault was that one, the FBI hostage rescue team was tired of waiting. We can't keep them waiting. Two.
The standoff was costing like a million dollars per week, something really absurd. Three, the Branch Davidians could hold out longer than any blockade they thought they could put up. And four, the chances of child sexual abuse and mass suicide were imminent. That's what she used to justify this decision. So on April 19th, 1993, the FBI negotiations team
caught wind that this final assault was coming from the hostage rescue team. And they warned the Branch Davidians And it's probably the funniest thing I've ever heard in my life. They're like, hey, just so you know, we are not assaulting you. And yeah, just so you know, and we are not coming onto the property. But
Raven (47:05)
Just so you know.
Pisha (47:11)
we are gonna place tear gas in the building. I'd like to remind you that this is not an assault. And as he should, the branch Davidian immediately hung up on the guy and they prepared for the siege. And like as the tanks are demolishing this building so they can place tear gas in there, they're like screaming over the loudspeaker, this is not an assault.
don't act like this is an assault and like shoot at us and stuff because it is not an assault. We're telling you it's not. So it's not okay. And, and it's right. It's hysterical to me. And so the tanks are demolishing the building to quote unquote place tear gas in the complex. And the FBI then gassed the people inside for hours, I think.
Raven (47:49)
It's like a Monty Python sketch, I swear.
Oh my god.
Pisha (48:07)
until a mysterious fire broke out in the complex. Actually, it was three different mysterious fires in three different areas that the use of accelerants were used to ignite. So it kind of indicates that the branch Davidians set these fires off intentionally within their compound. However, oh yeah.
Raven (48:29)
Wasn't there also audio that like also, yeah.
Pisha (48:33)
Oh yeah, so throughout the 51 day siege, the FBI was bugging everything, everything in and around the complex.
During that final assault, they were listening to these recordings and the recordings are like Koresh saying, hey, pour fuel down over there. And
Oh, we should put more hay in here so it would light up faster and stuff like that. Like they probably started the fire. I'm not saying that the FBI isn't capable of starting it, but they maintain that they didn't use any sort of incendiary devices or anything that would have sparked any sort of flame. So and in.
Raven (48:57)
Yeah.
And law enforcement has never lied ever in history, so.
Pisha (49:12)
Never. So we're taking them at their word, but actually we're not. There's more government telling us that they didn't do anything wrong later.
Raven (49:19)
Well, yeah, and I mean also the audio. Like, I mean, there's plenty of evidence showing that they were actually telling the truth this time around. I didn't mean to like sow doubt there, so.
Pisha (49:23)
Yeah.
No, no, not at all. And honestly, I think one of the branch Davidians who survived the fire actually witnessed them pouring fuel or what looked to be fuel all around the building. And he heard David Koresh say light it up. So, I mean, it's coming from his own people on the inside of the house. Who witnessed it? Yes, the call is coming from inside the house. So.
Raven (49:38)
Mm-hmm.
The call is coming from inside.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (50:00)
So the branch Davidians refused to come out despite this raging fire. It was really quick. Like it was, I think 20 minutes, something, just a short period of time to burn down the whole complex. During that time, the feds, it was kind of heart wrenching for me to listen to some of the federal agents who had established communication and some type of relationship with Koresh over those 51 days.
just listening to them talk about how they were begging David Koresh to please at least save the children, at least let the children out, please. They were begging him to let them out, but they couldn't send fire and rescue in to save anyone because all of this stockpiled munitions. The fire was going to heat them up and there was this fear that they were all going to explode.
and just cause catastrophic deaths. So they couldn't set in fire and rescue. And here's the feds, like they fucked up bad in this case, but I felt for them in this way. They didn't want those children to die. They really didn't. They did a lot of fucked up things that led maybe to their death in some way. But I don't think they wanted those kids out and hearing them beg for their lives was so sad.
Raven (51:09)
No.
Pisha (51:22)
The few branch Davidians who escaped the fire refused to tell the agents where the children were so they couldn't initiate a rescue. And in fact, one woman tried to run back into the fire. And so the result was that Koresh and all of his biological children, the ones that would have been the next generation to survive this so-called apocalypse or whatever, they all die in the fire.
Raven (51:34)
Oof.
Pisha (51:50)
So in the end, the casualties are this. The government lost four ATF agents on that first day, the February 28th that ATF raid. And then I think most of these federal agents were primarily ATF from that first raid as well, but 16 federal agents were wounded. There might've been a few in the hostage rescue team.
on the final day siege. As for the Branch Davidians, six were killed on February 28th during the ATF raid. 76 were killed on April 19th, including 23 to 28 children. I put a range because they're like, literally the next sentence would have a different number. So I don't know how many kids died, but it was at least 20. And then that's too many, like.
Raven (52:42)
Yeah.
Pisha (52:44)
It's way too many. And so all of the children died either from burning to death or smoke inhalation. And then a lot of the men in the branch Davidians were killed with mercy killings. You know those as like the gunshot to the head. Koresh was one of those. He was found dead in the rubble with a single gunshot wound to his forehead, which if you were prophesized,
Raven (53:03)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (53:11)
to die in a fire, why would you have someone shoot you in the head?
Raven (53:15)
Right. Yeah, I mean...
Pisha (53:16)
And why would you take down all of your children who are supposed to like prove or disprove your existence as the Messiah?
Raven (53:26)
Ah, Samusiah, you are.
Pisha (53:28)
Right? You die. But but a lot of comparisons were made. Like at the time of his death, David Koresh was 33 years old. Same age as Jesus Christ when he allegedly died. And. Yeah, they were carpenters. And what was the other connection? There was like some other connection. Oh, oh, that's what it was. You're right. He was shot in the side.
Raven (53:30)
Anyway.
He was a carpenter too.
Did he like shot in the hands or something to do with his hands? Mm hmm. Oh, oh, yes, that's right. That's right. Because he, he filmed himself. Like a lot of the, the reason we know so much about this is because he, he would film himself, that narcissistic motherfucker. Sorry. But like.
Pisha (53:56)
Remember the spear in the side of Christ? Yeah.
Well, and he was releasing them to the FBI with the hope that these terrible messages, his personal message would get out to the world. That was his goal.
Raven (54:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. That's exactly right. And part of like his whole thing, like at one point, I don't remember how much we went into this, but he did work to negotiate with the FBI if they would broadcast part of his message. And so there was a lot of discussion within the FBI.
in order to decide whether or not they were going to do that, whether that was a good idea or not, they ultimately decided to broadcast it. So I mean, a lot of this was happening. So in the 1990s, it's just such an interesting time, because you had O.J. Simpson, you had Ruby Ridge, and then you had Waco, which were all broadcast pieces of history that never before would have been seen by so many people.
So, you know, one of the things that happened with Waco in this was that you had a bunch of people travel, including Timothy McVeigh, which we're going to get into a whole lot more. And who knew? Who knew this all had?
Pisha (55:16)
Another connection you say, Raven?
I knew all of these things were connected.
Raven (55:24)
Exactly. Yeah.
Pisha (55:25)
basically that was the siege. That was the whole siege. And it happened, it ended on April 19th, which is my dad's birthday, and will also be relevant next week. So yeah, so this all ended. What was the aftermath like? At least, you know, you're the criminal expert, criminally speaking, what went down.
Raven (55:36)
Mmm.
Absolutely.
so on March 19th, so Steve Schroeder was David Koresh's right-hand man. He left the compound on March 21st of 1993. And then Kevin Whitecliffe, who also left on March 19th of 1993, and Brad Branch. And actually, like, there was some, like, clever thing that they used with Branch and the Branch Davidians.
trying to connect them. But anyway, he also left on March 19th of 1993. They were charged in the conspiracy to murder a federal official. And so one of the charges that I'm very familiar with is using a firearm in connection with a crime of violence, which is a 18 U.S.C. 924C. It's a mandatory five-year...
mandatory minimum at this point. I don't know what it was back in 1993. It's not one you want to get charged with, but anyway, there are conspiracy and murder
that those guys got in connection with the first shootout that happened on February 28th of 1993 which is when four ATF agents were killed and 17 were ultimately wounded. Again, because so much of this is
broadcast and so much of it's filmed, you will remember seeing these ATF agents on the backs of like trucks and things like that who are dead or who are wounded and that's part of the reason that I think this ultimately escalated so much that it did was because people are seeing it. Anyway, so April 6th of 1993.
Allison and Kendrick were also charged with aiding and abetting. These are also branch Davidians, I'm sorry, aiding and abetting with the attempted murder of a federal official and also a 924C charge as well. So using a firearm in connection with a crime of violence. July 20 of 1993, there was a superseding. So this is all becoming like one big.
trial at this point, one big case involving all of the branch Davidians. So they supersede that indictment. They include more charges and more defendants, that's what that means, including Livingston Fagan, who is actually British.
Pisha (57:55)
Yeah, no, fuck that guy for so many reasons. Like you were not being religiously persecuted in England. You can stay there and break your own laws.
Raven (57:58)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly. Yeah. There's actually a BBC podcast that I just started dipping into about all of the Britons? Well, Britons. The British people who became... Yeah, so apparently David Koresh went to Great Britain and studied there and actually pulled in some followers from...
Pisha (58:18)
Britons? British? The Brits?
Raven (58:35)
Great Britain while there and pulled them over there. So I think 17 of the people who died in Waco were actually were Britons. Ha ha ha.
Pisha (58:44)
Britons or Australian because he also had like a large Australian following too. Again, you're not being religiously persecuted there as a Christian or like just stay there and break your own goddamn laws.
Raven (58:47)
Mm-hmm.
True.
Just stay there.
Yeah, leave us to break our own laws anyway. So yeah.
Pisha (59:00)
Yeah, we've got plenty of people, plenty of Americans willing to break these laws, okay? We can only handle so much.
Raven (59:04)
Exactly. Yeah, we don't need a living stone Fagin.
Pisha (59:10)
Yeah, exactly. So what happens to him?
Raven (59:13)
Yeah, so he's also charged along with Steve Schroeder, Branch, and all the other guys that I had already mentioned, conspiring to kill ATF agents.
So Catherine Schroeder was one of the branch Davidians who was actually negotiating with the FBI.
So Catherine Schroeder was also charged among the other co-defendants in this conspiracy. And because she had a very vested interest in this, she had children who were involved.
she ended up testifying against the other co-defendants and ultimately was able to get convictions of the other 11 co-defendants in this case.
Pisha (59:51)
They didn't serve like ridiculous time though, right? Usually it was just like 18 months to maybe four years tops.
Raven (1:00:00)
Yeah, that's correct. So I mean, you know, in typical days, like when the FBI didn't royally fuck everything up, you might have gotten some kind of but like, but because this had gotten so much publicity, like we said, and the FBI so royally fuck things up, there was like so many defenses available to these codefendants that they didn't serve.
horrendous sentences as you might otherwise expect in federal sentencing.
Pisha (1:00:25)
Yeah, dang it, FBI. Just fucking everything up. So, you know, on the civil side of things, the Branch Davidians tried to bring some lawsuits as well. Several of the surviving Branch Davidians as well as more than 100 family members of those who had died or were injured in the confrontation brought civil suits against the United States government.
Raven (1:00:28)
Oh yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:00:50)
numerous federal officials, including our queen of Babylon and also the former governor of Texas, Ann Richards, and members of the Texas Army National Guard. We don't have enough time to talk about what the Texas Army National Guard did wrong, but they fucked up too. The plaintiffs were seeking monetary damages under the federal tort claims
Act, several civil rights statutes, the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, and Texas state law. I don't know what the grounds for RICO would be. That's very...
Raven (1:01:29)
Well, I was going to say that's a criminal statute, so I don't-
Pisha (1:01:32)
a criminal enterprise. How could you argue that the government is a criminal enterprise? I mean you can, but it failed in this case. So a bulk of these claims were dismissed because they were insufficient as a matter of law or because the plaintiffs could advance no material evidence in support of them. After a month-long trial on the remaining claims, the court rejected the branch Davidians.
Raven (1:01:37)
I mean, I could argue that, but it's...
Pisha (1:01:59)
claims, finding that one, the Branch Davidians initiated a gun battle when they fired at federal officers who were attempting to serve lawful warrants. Two, the government's planning of the siege was a discretionary function for which it cannot be sued, what we know as qualified immunity. Three, the use of tear gas by the government was not negligent.
Raven (1:02:19)
Hmm.
Pisha (1:02:26)
Even if it was negligent, the injuries of the branch Davidians was not the result of the government's negligence, but rather the branch Davidians intentional setting of the fire, which made me think of the wrongful conduct rule. And I was like, you should not be able to profit from injuries that resulted from criminal activity or otherwise inappropriate activity. So it made me think of that. So yeah.
Raven (1:02:41)
Yeah.
Well, to some degree, like, just to put a little, like, asterisk on that, I mean, if you booby trap your house, for example, and someone comes in and they get injured and you have no warning about this booby trap, you will still be liable. And so, I mean, to some degree, the FBI still should have had some liability. It's just different when it's the fucking government because they have so much immunity.
when it comes to civil lawsuits and when it comes to these kinds of things. And so, and that's ultimately kind of what led to a lot of the discontent and the anger towards the federal government was how much they got away with essentially terrorizing their own people. So anyway.
Pisha (1:03:36)
Well, yeah, no, and the Branch Davidians agreed. They thought that this was some screwed up findings because I don't know how they could have proved that the Branch Davidians initiated the gun battle. I mean, they could in theory say, hey, they were serving lawful warrants. There never should have been any gunfire ever, I guess. But really the point is
Raven (1:03:44)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:04:02)
The Branch Davidians did try to appeal, but the grounds on which they appealed were super fucking lame. It was that the judge was not impartial because of the previous rulings he had made and the previous relationships he had with defense counsel, not defense counsel, prosecution and blah, blah. And it's like, come on. The Fifth Circuit disagreed.
Raven (1:04:09)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:04:26)
the judge was absolutely impartial.
and affirmed the lower courts ruling. So their civil claims were all dismissed. As far as the government goes, there was not a whole lot of accountability, as you've kind of hinted upon. The Oklahoma City bombing on April 19th, 1995, caused the media to revisit many of the questionable aspects of the government's actions at Waco.
Raven (1:04:34)
Yeah.
Mm-mm.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (1:04:51)
And they started as American started asking for an investigation at that time. So, I mean, Timothy McVeigh kind of did his job. He got people to take an interest in Waco and the government's overreach in Waco. So it kind of worked in that regard. But, in September, 1999, attorney general Reno, queen of Babylon appointed former U S senator John C. Danforth as special counsel.
Raven (1:05:04)
Right,
Pisha (1:05:17)
council to investigate the matter. The special council was directed to investigate charges that government agencies started or spread the fire at Mount Carmel complex, directed gunfire at the Branch Davidians. And the key point here is on April 19th, not on February 28th. That was not what this was about. They were only caring whether or not they were fired upon while they were in the fire.
Raven (1:05:39)
Mm.
Pisha (1:05:45)
And then the special counsel also looked into whether the United States unlawfully employed the armed forces in this case against their own citizens. A year-long investigation ensued during which the office of the special counsel interviewed over a thousand witnesses, reviewed over two million pages of documents, and examined thousands of pounds of physical evidence. In the final report,
On November 8th, 2000, special counsel Dan Forth concluded that the allegations were meritless. Whomp, whomp, I guess. The report found, however, that certain government employees had failed to disclose during litigation against the branch Davidians the use of pyrotechnic devices at the complex.
Raven (1:06:23)
Waaah!
Pisha (1:06:36)
and had obstructed the special counsel's investigation. So disciplinary action was pursued against those individuals. The special counsel also considered whether the use of active duty military at Waco violated the ready for it. Posse Comitatus act. What you, hey ho, hey, hey. Right, call back.
Raven (1:06:56)
Hey, hey, it all comes full circle.
Pisha (1:07:01)
In addition to this, there's the Military Assistance to Law Enforcement Act, which bans the military from assisting law enforcement actions, state and local law enforcement actions. So the special counsel noted that the military provided, quote unquote, extensive loans of equipment to the ATF and FBI, including among other things, two tanks, the offensive capability of which had been disabled. I don't know what that means.
but I was looking at all of the materials they had and unfortunately Texas has this provision that allows the national guard to give all their old unused equipment to the local law enforcement without it violating the Posse Comitatus Act It's such bullshit.
The military was found to have only provided limited advice, training, and medical support. The special counsel concluded that these actions only amounted to indirect military assistance within the bounds of applicable law. So no accountability. The government said the government didn't do anything wrong. Therefore nothing wrong happened. No assault took place at Waco. It's fine. Everything's fine. So that's...
Raven (1:08:08)
Everything's fine. Nothing to see here. Yeah.
Pisha (1:08:14)
That's Waco. That is Waco. There is so much more that I wish we could have gotten into. We're already way over time,
it's all out there. There's some great documentaries for you guys if you want to follow up on any of the information, but yeah.
Raven (1:08:28)
Yeah, and we're getting very close to being able to cite our sources on a actual web page. So we're getting there. You guys just be patient. Be patient.
Pisha (1:08:34)
Yes. Yeah. so throughout the episode, we've kind of been talking about how this ties to Ruby Ridge. I don't I don't really know if we need to draw any more connections.
Raven (1:08:43)
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I mean,
we're building stepping stone by stepping stone, right? Like, so we've talked about the Posse Comitatus, like, obviously, you brought us back there with your talk about the Dansforth report. but really, I mean, there is this building of resentment towards the federal government and towards the powers that be.
especially when it is against people's particular ideologies, which tends to be white supremacist in these cases. Well, yeah, deeply evangelical, which we didn't talk about branched avidians, like ideology in white supremacy or anything like that, but clearly there is a pattern that is being built that people are paying attention
Pisha (1:09:16)
or Christian.
Raven (1:09:32)
particular people.
particularly people who are upset with the fact that the government is ascribing to like newer progressive paradigms, which
including women and including people of color. So
Pisha (1:09:48)
The horror!
Raven (1:09:50)
How dare they, right? This world only belongs to white men with property.
Pisha (1:09:51)
How dare they.
Yeah, how messed up that a pluralistic democracy might represent its people. Whoa.
Raven (1:10:03)
Yeah, cannot have people of color or women voting. They're not real people. So the only logical answer to this, Pisha, as you know, is to take up arms and. And
Pisha (1:10:07)
No. No, not at all.
Just get into a fist fight with these guys. No, just kidding. Not those arms, different arms.
Raven (1:10:22)
Exactly.
Yeah, just bah, bah. Yeah.
Pisha (1:10:29)
Oh my God, that's hilarious. Yeah, no, I mean, we have not solved this problem in this episode at all, but yeah, we're only, we are the problem actually. Taylor Swift wrote that song about us. It's us, it's us, it's us. But yeah, so I mean, there's more to come. What's to come, Raven? Take us on out.
Raven (1:10:38)
No, we're only contributing to the problem. So, you're welcome.
It's me, hi. It's us.
Yeah, so all right, here we go.
Pisha (1:10:59)
I'm
Raven (1:11:00)
we're building up to talk about present day, but from Waco, Waco caused a lot of issues with like we were talking about, the discontent with the federal government, including with Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, which ultimately culminated into the Oklahoma City bombing, which killed 168
on April 19th of 1995. So we have been building up to April 19th of this year. I'm not, I don't know the math of how many years it's been.
Pisha (1:11:29)
I don't- I don't know. I don't- I didn't bring my abacus, so I have no idea.
Raven (1:11:33)
Listen, I think we're very close to 30 years at this point.
Pisha (1:11:39)
That's
Raven (1:11:39)
it's 30.
Pisha (1:11:40)
it's 30. It's 30, how old are we?
Better not.
Raven (1:11:45)
My brother was born in 1995 and I think he's turning 30, so I think that's where we're at.
Pisha (1:11:49)
Well, now we've got a whole nother problem. You don't know when your brother was born and, and we don't know how old we are. So it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, but go on, tell us what's going on next week because it's really exciting.
Raven (1:11:57)
It doesn't matter anymore.
Yeah. So next week. So Pisha and I, obviously, like we've been to law school, we went to law school and we're, I hate to say the word blessed, but it doesn't feel like anything less than that, to have had one of our deans be the representative of Terry Nichols. And so we've spoken with her,
very graciously agreed to talk with us about her representation of Terry Nichols and talking about this progression of right-wing fanaticism, right-wing extremism in this country and how it's built and to talk to us about one of the people who really just kind of got caught up into it. And that's part of the thing that I think we're most interested in is how do people become involved who might not otherwise be...
ingrained in this. And so that's what we're going to lead into next week. We are going to be talking about Oklahoma City bombing, which
kind of skipped over Waco. So like, I kind of apologize because I think I got a lot of facts wrong in this because I'm so hyper focused on our next episode. So Pisha, thank you.
Pisha (1:13:12)
No, it's okay. I got this on rap. Hey, I'm happy to have made this my right wing extremist baby. Yeah, yeah. No, I was absolutely fascinated. So I was happy to do that, but I can't wait to hear what you've got for Oklahoma City next week.
Raven (1:13:22)
Yeah, I'll take that. Yeah. So.
Feel free to fuck up everything about whatever I assign you.
Pisha (1:13:35)
I just like make up facts. I'm like, Timothy McVeigh also took, he, he was a carpenter as well. And he was, he was also Jesus. I like vegan better. That's just like, he was a Scorpio and a vegan. Everything is rising sign. You don't even want to know.
Raven (1:13:38)
He was a...
He was a vegan.
He was also Jesus.
Yeah.
and which explains everything really.
Yeah, so that's what we're going to talk about next time. We're going to talk about Timothy McVeigh. We're going to talk about Terry Nichols, especially. We're going to talk to one of our favorite. I mean, Pisha and I both like kind of fangirled out like when we were like, oh my God, we're going to talk to Barbara Bergman because she is literally probably one of the best things that could have ever happened to our law school. And
You know, we'll get into that next time. But I'm excited. We're going to kind of have our explosion episode and talk about 1995 in the Oklahoma City bombing ugh, yeah. Like just, it's really tragic. And I've cried so many times about this. But I think it's worth revisiting.
40, 30, or many years later. We're not mathematicians. But anyway, so that's what we're going to talk about next time. And so until then, be sure to listen, like, subscribe, comment, email us. Just drop us a line. Just say hi, even if you're our moms. And yeah, and in the meantime.
Pisha (1:14:52)
How many years it was? No
Absolutely.
Raven (1:15:17)
stay out of law school and the infirmaries.
Raven Deranger (1:15:22)
Remember to like and subscribe to Deranged DeJure on your favorite podcast platform and follow at deranged.dejure on all the major social media. Contact us by email at deranged.dejure at gmail.com. This has been a Raven Kink production.