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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
Denalee:
Hey, everybody. I'm Denalee Bell and welcome to the Soapy Box. Today, we have the privilege to welcome our guest, Josh German, back to the show. We're so grateful that you're back here again. Thank you.
Josh:
Thank you.
Denalee:
He was on our previous show, if you didn't catch it, and he was talking about his life and how the choices he made and the steps he made that landed him in prison multiple times. Three times?
Josh:
Four times in prison.
Denalee:
Four times, four times. It was a really good episode. It turned out to be everything I wanted Soapy Box to be. I'm going to really thank you for showing up and being authentic and vulnerable and sharing your story because it's really what we created Soapy Box for, this platform is we want to share with people our stories so that they can relate. Sometimes people just feel alone and isolated in their story and they think they're the only ones that's happening to, and I noticed in our social media, many people said, "Hey, this is my story. This could be me." And people don't feel so alone in the world.
I think you have an inspiring transformative story that you have changed your life in such a dramatic way that it gives other people the idea, the permission, the goal that they can do it too. Because what one man can do, so can another. And then the biggest thing that I want to do with Soapy Box is to tell stories that people maybe don't understand or can't relate to, but maybe by hearing you and getting to know you, they have more compassion and less judgment.
Josh:
Right.
Denalee:
And I feel like on social media that was represented well in all areas. There were some people who had a lack of compassion, but those are your keyboard warriors who just are negative all the time anyway. And I think that some of those clips that they were responding to were maybe taken out of context. And it's hard to understand the full context without seeing the full podcast. So I'll make sure to watch the full podcast. And if you want to see that first one, please, it's on all podcast platforms and YouTube as well. I just want to get the right name of it if you want to search it.
It's the Dark Side of Addiction: Josh's Battle that Led to Prison, and it will also be in the comments area as well. And please like and subscribe. It helps us bring more stories like Josh's to the forefront, and we really enjoy doing this, and I think it's important, and it does really affect people's lives. TikTok, you become quite the phenom. So people are relating, and it's quite interesting the conversation that's being had there. So we're going to just delve right in today and start talking about your first day that led to prison. If you can go back to those memories and think about what were you feeling, what were you thinking? What did you see?
Josh:
The very first time I went to prison, I was just a kid.
Denalee:
How old were you?
Josh:
18 years old. When you go to prison, the choices you make while you're waiting to go to prison in the county jail, those are going to ultimately pick the path that you choose to live while you're there. Okay? What I mean by that is when you're sitting in county jail, you've been sentenced to go to prison. You're going and there's nothing you can do about it. You will either become a victim and try and live that life while you're in prison, or you'll find a certain group of people that you feel you can relate to, and you'll make a decision before you leave county jail most of the time of who you're going to try to become when you get there.
Denalee:
So did somebody teach you that while you were there?
Josh:
No. It took me going to prison to figure this part out, and you don't really realize what you're doing, but you're making your decision before you get there of how you're going to live.
Denalee:
How you're going to survive.
Josh:
Right.
Denalee:
So when you're pulling up, do you pull up on a bus?
Josh:
You do. The day they call you to roll your stuff up because the bus is here for you, it doesn't really hit you until you get in that room and they're putting the waist chains on you, and the shackles, and the handcuffs. That's when your anxiety, your fear... If anybody ever tries to tell you that they are not scared the very first time they went to prison, they're lying because there's a fear that comes over you because all you know is what you've seen on TV or the stories you hear from people, and you get on that bus, and you head out to that desert because that's usually where it's at. And it is real at that point when you get there. You pull up and you look at that gate and you see the gun towers and it's scary. It really is.
Denalee:
You can't imagine as an 18-year-old what that might've felt like.
Josh:
I was scared. When you get there, when you get inside, you're used to the time that you spent in county jail. You're locked down constantly. You are treated like crap. When you get to the prison and they shut that door, they take the cuffs off you. There's no more cuffs. You're now in a secured building and they don't keep those cuffs on you anymore. You're free to move around a lot more than what you were in a county jail.
Denalee:
You have to choose on how you're going to survive.
Josh:
You do.
Denalee:
So you probably didn't know that going in, but you probably realized it real fast.
Josh:
You do. You realize it super fast because usually before you go to prison, there's guys in the county jail that have been to prison. Maybe they're there on a parole violation, they're getting ready to go back out. They got to go have a hearing, whatever the case may be. Depending on who you are, and the person that you want to become, I guess, is the group that you'll find yourself going towards. And you'll usually find yourself with guys that are going back out to the prison. So you're hearing from them, you're listening from them, their stories, and you're mentally preparing yourself for what you're about to go through.
Denalee:
Did you physically prepare yourself?
Josh:
Yes. Before you go to prison, once you know you're going to prison, you expect the worst, right? You're going to. You hear all these war stories of us being a gladiator school or whatever it is.
Denalee:
That's what I picture it to be.
Josh:
And it is. It really is. You prepare yourself mentally and physically. You get yourself into a workout routine because most of the guys that are coming in, they're drug addicts. Their bodies are all tore up from doing drugs or alcoholics or whatever it is. So now you're going to prepare yourself physically, so that way when you get there, you're ready for whatever you feel.
Denalee:
You feel strong.
Josh:
You feel strong inside.
Denalee:
How do you still yourself mentally?
Josh:
I don't think I was mentally ready to go to prison until after I was already there and I accepted-
Denalee:
And then you learned to do that the next time?
Josh:
As you go back to prison multiple times, you're just, "Okay, this is what I'm going to do. This is what my plan is when I get there. This will be my day-to-day routine as I'm there.
Denalee:
So the second, third, and fourth time that you went to prison, did you up your game like your workout?
Josh:
Of course you do. There's only a few things that go on while you're in prison. You're either going to go in there and stay a drug addict and get high the whole time you're there.
Denalee:
Because drugs are readily available?
Josh:
Constantly. Oh, yes. There's just a huge markup on the price. Obviously, you're either going to go in there and continue to be a drug addict. You're going to go in there and try to be somebody that's involved in prison politics and try to rise up in whatever certain-
Denalee:
Is that really a choice to not be in prison, politics?
Josh:
It is.
Denalee:
I mean, it feels like it's a government within itself. It feels like a whole government hierarchy.
Josh:
The prison is ran similar to out here. So in the prison you've got the gangs and you've got the officers that work there. And most of the time, those guys that work there, they're just there for their check. They don't want to get involved in it. So it's really the inmates that run it. You're either going to fight when you get there. You're going to be a drug addict while you're there, or you're going to be scared of your current situation, and you're going to realize that being homosexual, you can just go in there and change your sexual things that you like, and you'll be left alone to be picked on a little bit called all kinds of names, maybe beat up a couple times, but you're really left alone.
Denalee:
Okay. So let's go into the homosexual thing. So you think that these guys who go into prison, they choose to do this?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
They're not picked to do this.
Josh:
I think that-
Denalee:
Is that a TV thing?
Josh:
Guys that go to prison, they might have a little gay tendencies out here, but when they get there, I've seen it in front of me multiple times, guys, that you would not even expect it.
Denalee:
So they're doing this for survival?
Josh:
Some guys do, yeah. They're like, "Hey, I'm going to go in here and I'm going to be gay," and I'll probably get left alone.
Denalee:
Oh, okay. So maybe for survival. I mean, men seem to need sex maybe more than women?
Josh:
Well, the Idaho prison system promotes homosexuality. They really do.
Denalee:
How do they promote it?
Josh:
If you go in there and you tell them you are gay or you are transgender or whatever it is, they will give you the necessary medications to continue whatever hormone path you're choosing to go down. The taxpayers actually paid for an inmate in there to get a sex change.
Denalee:
That's interesting. So what I find interesting about this is I had a relative who is recently in jail and getting medical care was next to impossible. But for somebody to get a sex change, it seems like it wasn't that impossible.
Josh:
It took a long time. I was actually in prison with this guy. I'm going to call him a guy, because that's really what he is.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
He was queer the whole time we were in there. I didn't know him personally. I knew of him, and then I knew of him even more when his face was put on the news.
Denalee:
Wow. Is he still in prison?
Josh:
I'm not sure.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
I've been out of prison since 2018, so I really don't know too much right now.
Denalee:
How does that go over with the rest of the guys?
Josh:
Well-
Denalee:
Or was he transitioning when you were in there?
Josh:
Yeah, I think he was.
Denalee:
Okay. I mean, you can even imagine how that might go over. Is that just normal now?
Josh:
Well, he had a boyfriend.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
There's this whole little group of homosexuals in there.
Denalee:
I had another relative who had been in prison, and he explained the hierarchy a little bit to me like you pick a side... Right? You pick who you're going to... And it was very racial motivated on how you picked your side and it wasn't... I don't think people are necessarily racist when they go in, but it sounded like you got to pick if you're white or he said the natives or with the Black people.
Josh:
Right.
Denalee:
And those were the three categories at that time, at that prison. That was a while ago. And you have to pick.
Josh:
You don't have to. You can go to prison and choose to just...
Denalee:
Do your time?
Josh:
You want to do your time.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
Now your-
Denalee:
And they leave you alone?
Josh:
Not really. You're not going to have a very good prison experience. You're already there.
Denalee:
Is there such a thing?
Josh:
You're already there. You might as well make the best of it. Right?
Denalee:
Right.
Josh:
You're not going to have a good experience. I mean, yeah, you'll be left alone, but you're-
Denalee:
Will you be safe?
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
You'll be safe. Really, the whole prison system, if you decide to go and be just a normal guy, you just want to do your time, you're not going to get the certain things that other inmates that are politically involved will get. So you're not going to get the hookup at the laundry spot. You're not going to get new socks or the new underwear. You're going to get the old holy stuff.
Denalee:
And those things mean a lot.
Josh:
Yeah. Good socks and good underwear. Brand new pants, get new shirts. But if you're just that guy that's there doing your time, nobody really knows you, they don't really give a crap about you. Right?
Denalee:
So it's not like you're going to get raped or beat up then?
Josh:
No. Rapes really not a thing anymore in prison because-
Denalee:
Well, they're promoting homosexuality.
Josh:
Yeah. Like I said, you could throw a Frisbee down the tier and you'd probably hit somebody that's gay.
Denalee:
Okay. So rape, from what my understanding seems more of a power thing.
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
So it would seem like that wouldn't really go away because if it's still a power thing, it would be used as a tool to show power. But they have other tools, I guess?
Josh:
Well, yeah, they have guys in there that have bigger breasts than women out here.
Denalee:
That's interesting. How does that-
Josh:
I'll tell you what, when I went back the last time, I didn't really pay attention too much when I first got there, but I was down in the receiving unit, and when you're in receiving, you're kind of segregated from the rest of the prison while you get classified, which determines the level of security that you're going to be on, which difference, which yard you're going to go to.
So if you're minimum, medium, maximum, closed custody determines on where you're going to go. So when you go to the receiving unit, you're segregated from the rest of the prison. So when you go to eat at the chow hall, the other prison has already been moving, so they're down at the gym, you're going to walk past the yard, you're going to see the guys down at the gym. When I went back the last time and we were on our way to the chow hall. I'm talking with a buddy of mine, and I look over and I had to double take because there was a guy with blonde hair and boobs down there with the rest of the guys, and I was like, "What the hell is that?"
Denalee:
Wow.
Josh:
So they have these transgender guys walking around in there. So when it comes to rape, it's not really a thing because there's so many guys and they're willing to give it to you now.
Denalee:
Wow. So sex is commonplace. Do you see it or is it still, do people use discretion?
Josh:
If you are politically involved in prison, it's looked down upon. Right?
Denalee:
Okay. So it's not a free pass like Las Vegas to some people?
Josh:
No. It's not a free pass. If you're one of the... What they consider the fellows, I guess, you better not be doing no homosexual stuff.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
Yeah. It's not a-
Denalee:
What happens?
Josh:
If you're politically involved and you get caught doing homosexual stuff, you're probably going to get beat up.
Denalee:
Okay. So when you say politically involved, could you define what that means?
Josh:
What I mean by the... It's like prison politics, right? So you've got your whites, you've got your blacks, your Mexicans, and your others, which is basically everybody else. And those are your gangs in prison.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
So when I say politically involved, if you are involved with the white boys or you're involved with the blacks or whatever, that's what I mean by that.
Denalee:
And they kind of have their own set of rules that you need to live by.
Josh:
Yeah. There's rules.
Denalee:
Do those rules differ between the races?
Josh:
It does, because I noticed that a lot of the... So if you're a sex offender, you're not going to be politically involved whatsoever. If you're a rapist, that's out as well. It seems like...
Denalee:
So they're in no man's land and there's no option for safety for them?
Josh:
Yeah. If you're a sex offender or a rapist, they're basically the same thing.
Denalee:
Have you seen any violence towards those people?
Josh:
Yes, 100%. Whole lot.
Denalee:
Any stories you want to share?
Josh:
I do. Basically, the way it works is like this. If you're a sex offender or rapist, you're on your own and you better know how to fight or you better learn how to fight really fast.
Denalee:
Is there enough fighting to do to get out of that situation?
Josh:
No. That's basically a green light.
Denalee:
I imagine, it's this thing where they just keep coming at you.
Josh:
They do. It's a green light on you all the time. But if you go to prison for beating up a woman, they can consider that a good charge.
Denalee:
Wow, that's fascinating.
Josh:
Yeah. It's something super to be proud about, I guess. Makes no sense to me.
Denalee:
That is fascinating. All the races think that.
Josh:
No, I don't know how the other races think. I just know that-
Denalee:
Okay. That was okay for you guys.
Josh:
That was was okay. I'm like, so you mean to tell me this dude beats up his old lady and he's okay?
Denalee:
Interesting.
Josh:
I don't understand how that works because in my eyes, you're a piece of shit.
Denalee:
So were there any charges that people revered or looked up to if somebody is-
Josh:
Murder.
Denalee:
Oh, so that's a good-
Josh:
Yeah, that's kind of cool. I have a really good friend of mine that's probably one of the nicest guys you can ever meet that's in there for murder and been in there over 47 years now.
Denalee:
Was it a crime of passion or...
Josh:
No, he was actually a bank robber.
Denalee:
Oh.
Josh:
Yeah. And he shot his co-defendant in the face.
Denalee:
Wow.
Josh:
Yeah. Really great guy. One of the nicest guys you could probably ever meet.
Denalee:
Probably you wouldn't want to cross him.
Josh:
But he would kill you in a heartbeat.
Denalee:
Even you?
Josh:
Probably not. Well, I mean, if I did something wrong to him, I'm sure he would.
Denalee:
Yeah, wouldn't have a problem.
Josh:
Yeah. He's got nothing to lose.
Denalee:
Oh, because he's in there for life?
Josh:
Yep.
Denalee:
Does it concern you to talk about that-
Josh:
Not really.
Denalee:
... out here? Would it upset him?
Josh:
No, I don't think so. He'd probably be all right with it. He's a great guy. These sex offenders that go to prison though, they... I didn't know that it was possible to get hit so hard by another man that it'd make you shit your pants.
Denalee:
Are you serious?
Josh:
A hundred percent serious. I've seen it on multiple occasions.
Denalee:
Really?
Josh:
My very first time going to prison, I was down in the receiving unit and they were getting ready to call us to go to chow, and we were all standing by the door and I didn't know at that time. Right? I'm new, but I learned that when you find that group of people that you're going to hang out with, you guys normally stay towards the back. You don't ever stand close to that door. I didn't know that. There was a guy, a couple dudes away from me that... You know the old mop ringers? You put your mop inside of it and you grab the handle and squeeze it like this.
Well, that piece comes out and this guy came up and pulled that mop ringer out, and there was a sex offender, a couple guys down from me. I didn't know it was sex offender. I was just a kid. I didn't even know what I was doing, where I was at. I watched him hit that guy over the top of the head with that mop ringer, and then they beat the crap out of this dude. Anyway-
Denalee:
Multiple guys?
Josh:
Multiple guys, yeah.
Denalee:
Beat up one guy? Yeah.
Josh:
On multiple occasions. I didn't even-
Denalee:
He's the one that defecated in his pants?
Josh:
No, not him.
Denalee:
Did he live?
Josh:
Yeah. They took him out on the stretcher. That's usually how they leave.
Denalee:
Do they come back?
Josh:
So here's the weird thing. You get beat up because you have a sex crime. They take you off the tier and there's political tears. They know where you shouldn't go. They send them right back in there.
Denalee:
So they want this to happen?
Josh:
Yes. They'll send them right back in there.
Denalee:
They're on the same team as you guys?
Josh:
Yeah, basically. They want them to get beat up. They know about it. On multiple occasions though, I've seen guys get hit so hard in the face that will literally-
Denalee:
Oh, I was going to ask where they hit. So they hit him in the face.
Josh:
In the face?
Denalee:
That causes that. In the face.
Josh:
I didn't know it was even possible.
Denalee:
I didn't either. I just assumed it was going to be like in the stomach or some other area. The face, that's interesting.
Josh:
It's a thing.
Denalee:
Do you witness a lot of violence?
Josh:
Yeah. There's a lot of violence in there. In Idaho prison down in the rec room, we had four or five pool tables. I remember the very first time I seen somebody get a pool ball thrown at their face. And the sound it makes when it bounces off your head is just a sound that it's not normal.
Denalee:
No.
Josh:
But they don't take the pool tables away. They just leave them there. Yeah.
Denalee:
So they don't mind the violence, the guards don't?
Josh:
I think they do. Like I said in the beginning, most of those guys that work there, they're just there for a check. They don't want to get involved in what's going on.
Denalee:
Well, you have to wonder if they're not a little afraid to get involved because of the politics of... I mean, in my movie head thinking, I don't know if I want to be rude to somebody in prison because especially somebody that might be getting out and want retribution.
Josh:
What I'd loved to say is when you'd get that guard that was just being a complete jerk to you, we'd go in your cell and search your cell and take things away from you that he shouldn't have taken from you. It's always fun to look at them and just remind them like, "Hey dude, I'm only here for a couple years, man." We live in voices.
Denalee:
You see fear in their eyes when you say that? Do they think about it?
Josh:
No, I don't think they put it all together. We're from the same town.
Denalee:
That is fascinating.
Josh:
We will see each other. It's not very big.
Denalee:
I don't even want to be anyone in my party at a restaurant to be rude to the server because they're handling my food. This is a much bigger thing.
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
That's interesting.
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
What do you think about the trans women in women's prisons? So the men that are transitioning to women, but going to women's prison, how do you feel about that?
Josh:
I don't know if they do go to a woman's prison. Really?
Denalee:
They do. Well, I know they are in the UK.
Josh:
Because I know in Boise, Idaho-
Denalee:
Not here maybe, but I know in some areas they are allowing that. And the thought is from some women that they're not really transitioning and it's a way to escape prison with the men.
Josh:
I believe anything is possible.
Denalee:
One guy impregnated a girl, one guy raped several girls. It's interesting.
Josh:
What I have noticed is that a lot of the transgender, or a lot of the homosexuals in prison are usually sex offenders.
Denalee:
Interesting. That's interesting.
Josh:
90% of them are probably a sex offender because-
Denalee:
So they kind of congregate together away?
Josh:
Yep. They're predators. Right?
Denalee:
That's interesting.
Josh:
And they go to prison. They decide that they want to do whatever they're going to do in prison and then they're predators. That's what they are.
Denalee:
So I was speaking to a person I knew who went to jail recently, and they were talking about how these people come in and they're not even really criminals, but after a certain time, they're just exposed to so much violence and they have to protect themselves that they turn into criminals. Did you see that happen?
Josh:
When I got sentenced, the very first time to go to prison, there was me and another guy. And this guy, I remember the judge talking to him and he told him, he said, "I don't want to send you to prison because I think it would kill you." When I ended up going back to prison the second time he was there, and he was probably one of the most violent people I've ever met.
Denalee:
Wow.
Josh:
It will either make you or break you and it will turn you into a warrior. It really will because that's what you become in there?
Denalee:
Well, you kind of have to.
Josh:
You take everybody out here that's a hustler, a drug dealer, that's trying to be this alpha male. You put them all in the same place together. What do you think is going to happen? Right? Violence. I watched it happen. I watched a guy go from this little kid that was weak to turn into somebody that was a savage.
Denalee:
Really?
Josh:
Just a savage.
Denalee:
So not a lot of rehabilitation happening in prison?
Josh:
No.
Denalee:
Which is what they were designed for. Right?
Josh:
Right. So there's just like all the classes that they promote in the prison system. None of the classes work.
Denalee:
Do you think they don't work because people don't want them to work? They just want to get through it? Or do you think that they're not effective?
Josh:
Only reason you do the class is because it's ordered by the parole commission. You need to do this, this, and this before we can let you out.
Denalee:
But there's not value in them.
Josh:
If you truly want to get clean and sober, and you want to be a better person, then yes, those classes will work.
Denalee:
Is the desire when you're in it, you're in the middle of it, the desire to be clean and sober, bigger or the desire to survive bigger?
Josh:
I think your main desire is to try and go home, and that's what you're really focused on. But you get sidetracked because it's hard to not get involved in things like that in there. You just gravitate to it.
Denalee:
Well, it becomes your world.
Josh:
It is. That is your world. And when you go to prison, if you don't accept the fact that you are there, it's going to be hard on you. When you get there, you need to accept the fact that you're in prison. You can't go home. You can't go call your mom and have her come pick you up. That ship has sailed. It's gone. You're there. You need to accept the fact you're there. Live every day like that's your home. Treat it like your home, clean your cell, keep it nice and tidy and just you need to accept it. That's your life.
Denalee:
What happens when guys don't accept it? I'm sure that happens.
Josh:
They'll either kill themselves.
Denalee:
Oh, really?
Josh:
Yeah. They'll either kill themselves or they'll just do super hard time. They'll be very emotional. They'll end up going down to see mental health doctors. They'll get put on all these pills and there'll literally be a walking zombie through the prison.
Denalee:
Now is that a danger for them?
Josh:
No, because they have a medical unit, a separate unit where they put all these guys that are, in my personal opinion, weak, and they don't want to accept the fact that they're in prison like, "Hey, you messed up. Deal with it. Learn from it or don't. Either accept it or go down and go get on a bunch of pills and go sit in your cell and cry about it."
Denalee:
People get killed by the system too, right?
Josh:
Yeah. The last time they executed somebody in the state of Idaho, everybody knows that there's an execution, right? Because it's posted. It's on the news. This person is going to be executed. They usually open up a channel on throughout the TV prison. They play movies and they lock the whole prison down. But the feeling that comes over the prison is to just know that they're killing somebody is super hard to explain. There's a little trailer and there's the south side where there's a track that you can walk and exercise and run and all that stuff. There's a trailer that sits off to the side outside of the gate. It's no longer used in Idaho, but that's where they killed the guy the last time we were out there. And just to know that you're in somewhere where the state of Idaho's murdering somebody... Not murdering, I guess. Basically they are.
Denalee:
I mean, they are.
Josh:
I mean, he killed somebody.
Denalee:
They're killing him.
Josh:
So they're going to kill him back.
Denalee:
Isn't that bizarre? That's bizarre to me.
Josh:
That comes over... The whole prison system is just, you can't explain-
Denalee:
Can feel it in the atmosphere?
Josh:
You just know. Everybody knows. The whole prison is calm. There's nobody really acting up. Everybody is just kind of like, "Holy shit."
Denalee:
Is it dark feeling?
Josh:
Yes.
Speaker 3:
How often did that happen?
Josh:
They only killed somebody one time that I was there. There was only one person executed. I think it was the last person that's been executed in Idaho.
Denalee:
Oh, really?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
I didn't even know we had capital punishment at all.
Josh:
Yeah. I don't know if they still do or not, but they did. I was there.
Denalee:
Interesting. I always find that interesting that we kill somebody because they killed somebody. I don't agree with it, but that's just my personal view.
Speaker 3:
That's a weird perspective to think that that can be you as well. You know what I mean?
Josh:
It could be any one of us.
Denalee:
Yes.
Josh:
But I think in order to get executed, you have to. It can't just be like a crime of passion that you committed or-
Denalee:
I am imagining guards to be cruel and sadistic sometimes because we see that on TV. Do you see that? I actually have a story where one guy said, "I think they're sadistic and cruel for fun." It's like some sociopathic behavior. Did you ever witness anything like that?
Josh:
Yeah. We had a couple that I ran across while I was there that would just... It was like they were maybe picked on as kids and now they're in a position of power. And if you are somebody in prison that's considered cool to the rest of the guys, this guy would target you. So in your cell, you'd have your photo album with the photos of your family and things like that, and all your letters that people send you. And he would just randomly go down there, decide to search your cell.
He would take all of your stuff into the office, your letters, your pictures, and he'd just go through them and he would confiscate things from you. And there's more than one. There's multiple in there like that.
Denalee:
It's interesting. And I do want to know that. I didn't mean all guards were this way, but I just find it interesting that somebody would choose this job and then choose to be so cruel. And then like you said earlier, I mean, that seems kind of scary if somebody's going to get out.
Josh:
Yeah. There's a few that are like that. And then there's a few that are on the team.
Denalee:
Okay. Do you think they're getting financially supported to be on the team?
Josh:
Oh, yeah.
Denalee:
And that would be a good-
Josh:
Of course. It's really common to be walking down because you could buy watches off commissary and things like that and sunglasses. And it's real common to be walking down the breezeway, right? Heading down to wherever it is you're heading to in the prison. And you'd see somebody walking by with this massive watch on their wrist, or they're wearing Oakley sunglasses.
Denalee:
They sell Oakley's in the commissary?
Josh:
No.
Denalee:
Oh, no.
Josh:
No. Most of the time that's because we got one of the guards on the team and he just brings it in for us.
Denalee:
So there's ways to get everything into the prison?
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
So do people do drugs in prison?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
And they drink?
Josh:
Basically, any drug that you want to do is in there.
Denalee:
There's only so many ways a drug could get in, so we won't-
Josh:
My best friend, basically the guy I considered my brother went back to prison for parole violation and died because of drugs in prison.
Denalee:
What did he use in prison?
Josh:
There's so many different stories that went on. I believe it came out that it was heroin that killed him.
Denalee:
So that seems like a crazy thing that he could have access to heroin while in prison.
Josh:
Oh, yeah. We got everything in there. Everything.
Denalee:
I mean, it has to be from the top down. You don't have to tell me how it gets in there, but for me, reasonably, it has to get in. Somehow the guards have to be part of it. Or somebody in the prison system from the outside has to get it there and somebody has to be allowing it in.
Josh:
Yeah. Most of the time it's the guards.
Denalee:
What do you think the benefit is for them to do that?
Josh:
Well, there's a huge markup for it.
Denalee:
So it's money?
Josh:
Oh, it's all money. I mean, what are these guys making?
Denalee:
Everything is money.
Josh:
14, 17 bucks an hour to work in a prison, to deal with murders, rapists, sex offenders?
Denalee:
Yeah.
Josh:
They don't pay them very good. So they've got to-
Denalee:
Supplement.
Josh:
... supplement their income somehow.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
And they get paid pretty well to do it. But just like everybody else, they get caught. Most of the time they go to jail. They're definitely getting fired.
Denalee:
Do you ever see any of them in prison?
Josh:
No.
Denalee:
No?
Josh:
Never.
Denalee:
Never happened?
Josh:
No. That's like the women that work at the prison. So why would a woman work at a prison?
Denalee:
I want to know. Why do you think?
Josh:
My opinion of the way I look at it is... And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with these women, but there's got to be something wrong. Usually they're heavy set and they're not the most attractive woman, and they come here and they get put with these guys, and my whole job is to make you feel so comfortable and pretty inside and you're so awesome.
Denalee:
Oh, the prisoners do this too. This guard?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
And she believes it?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
Because if I can get her on the team, she's my in at whatever I need brought in? This one time-
Denalee:
So you've seen this happen?
Josh:
So this one time I was down at the end of the tier and I forget, I was going to make something in the microwave, and I walk into the day room and I smelled something. I'm looking, and I can't place the smell, but it doesn't smell normal. It's a food. I look over at my buddy that's at the other microwave I'm like, "What are you making?" He goes, "Pork chops." I'm like, "Okay, whatever. That's not real. What are you making?"
Denalee:
Oh, so that's not something you would ever get in jail?
Josh:
No. I'm like, "What are you cooking?" He's like, "Dude, I'm making pork chops." I'm like, "Okay, show me your pork chops, dude." So I go over there and he opens it up and sure enough it was pork chops.
Denalee:
So what do you think he had to do to have these pork chops?
Josh:
So long story short, he has a woman that was working in the medical building that he worked on and worked on and worked on, and finally was able to get this woman to bring him food. They were dating. They were having sex in the medical unit.
Denalee:
Oh, they're dating?
Josh:
Oh, yeah. That's real common.
Denalee:
They're dating?
Josh:
But here's the twist.
Denalee:
That's what they call it?
Josh:
Here's the twist.
Denalee:
They're going out?
Josh:
Her husband was also a guard at the prison.
Denalee:
Uh-oh.
Josh:
So I don't know how long these two had this relationship going, but it was awesome to see it unfold. It's like a soap opera. When it finally came out that these two had this thing going on, she got fired immediately. And her husband used to work down at the gym or in the rec yard, and he was this big dude. I don't know what happened, but I know there was a confrontation between him and the inmate over his wife.
Denalee:
Okay. So the woman is fired.
Josh:
The woman is fired.
Denalee:
And they were having sexual relationship somehow?
Josh:
In medical, yeah. It happens anywhere you can get-
Denalee:
There's no cameras?
Josh:
Well, there's spots where there's no cameras.
Denalee:
Oh, and everyone knows where they are.
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
Okay. And then the husband, they were still married?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
Did he hurt the guy?
Josh:
I think there was a physical altercation between the correctional officer and this inmate, but I don't know the whole story. I know that it unraveled and she got fired. He got fired.
Denalee:
Oh, he got fired too?
Josh:
Oh yeah, because I believe they got in a fight.
Denalee:
Okay. I was wondering how.
Josh:
I believe those two fought. I don't know the whole story.
Denalee:
That's interesting. So all kinds of-
Josh:
It's real common.
Denalee:
So you could probably get, apparently these... I mean, anyone to do anything given the right price. So for women, apparently money isn't the price we want to be loved. Okay.
Josh:
Yeah. There's sex in prison.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
A hundred percent. Whether it's you and another man, I guess, if that's your thing, or it's you and one of the guards.
Denalee:
So is there a lot of female guards?
Josh:
There's quite a few. But not all of them are like that.
Denalee:
So did you ever partake?
Josh:
I never really... I tried.
Denalee:
You don't have to answer that.
Josh:
I really did. But I never-
Denalee:
You never got it done?
Josh:
No.
Denalee:
But you did try?
Josh:
I tried. Of course I tried. I was in there for a couple years.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
So interesting.
Josh:
I never was able to-
Denalee:
And you weren't ready to go for the other team?
Josh:
No, I don't bat for that home team.
Denalee:
No? That wasn't your thing?
Josh:
No, we swing one way.
Denalee:
I mean, everyone has got their thing, right?
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
Okay. So you're not gay.
Josh:
No, not right now at least.
Denalee:
And never have been so far? Do you have any other stories of crazy things that happened while you were in prison that you feel comfortable sharing?
Josh:
Most of my stories that I can tell you about are just going to be violent stories. It was real common to see people constantly fight in there. I mean, fighting is-
Denalee:
Did you fight?
Josh:
Yeah, I fought quite a bit while I was in prison.
Denalee:
Did you ever get hurt?
Josh:
Yeah. I got beat up a couple times. I beat some people up a couple times. You win, you lose. It's going to happen.
Denalee:
It's just part of the thing.
Josh:
It's going to happen. Either if you don't know how to fight, you're going to learn.
Denalee:
Anything long lasting happen to you physically?
Josh:
Not that I can think of. The Idaho prison, you can actually Google it or go on YouTube and they used to have a private prison. Correctional Corporations of America came in and started up CCA, which was a private prison off to the side. And they weren't peace officers. They were security guards. So assaulting one of them was not a new crime.
Denalee:
Because they weren't police officers?
Josh:
They weren't peace officers. Okay?
Denalee:
Oh, peace officers. So you could hurt them for free?
Josh:
Yeah. Obviously, you'd probably get charged with assault or whatever that charge may be that they wanted to charge you with. But it wasn't like hitting a sworn peace officer. So when CCA came in and they started their private prison, they took a lot of us and sent us over to the private prison. You could look it up on YouTube, multiple fights of people that were... They're just getting their head stomped in because the thing was-
Denalee:
Have you seen that?
Josh:
Yes. The thing was, if we're fighting, they won't come on the tier. They have to stand outside. So the fight would go on and go on and go on.
Denalee:
Wow. They can't come in and stop it?
Josh:
They weren't allowed to enter the tear while the fight was taking place.
Denalee:
Wow. So you probably saw some pretty gruesome things.
Josh:
Yeah. We used to have-
Denalee:
That sticks with you, things like that.
Josh:
When I got out of prison, I had to go see this counselor and he asked me if I suffered from PTSD from being in prison. And I said, "I don't know what that is." And he goes, "Well, did you see anything while you're in there?" I was like, "As far as violence?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "Of course, I did." He goes, "Well, tell me some stories." So I ran him down some stories. We used to have these lockers down in the gym, and there was about a three or four inch gap underneath the locker.
I remember this one time they got this sex offender cornered in the locker room, and they kicked his head so hard to try and force it underneath the locker until it killed him. So I was telling this counselor these stories.
Denalee:
You saw this?
Josh:
I wasn't in the room obviously when this dude was killed, but we were all down at the gym when it took place.
Denalee:
So there was no [inaudible 00:42:13]
Josh:
It was real common.
Denalee:
... what was happening?
Josh:
It was real common to see those guys get beat up.
Denalee:
Wow. And did he die?
Josh:
Yeah, he died. He died, for sure.
Denalee:
Isn't it amazing to think that one human could do that to another human?
Josh:
When you put somebody in a situation, I think anybody can do it.
Denalee:
I guess if you attacked somebody in my family, I might be capable of things that I wouldn't think I could do.
Josh:
It's fight or flight when you're in there. It really is.
Denalee:
Did you get help for the PTSD that probably ensued?
Josh:
I didn't. I feel fine. Right?
Denalee:
It doesn't affect you to think about those things?
Josh:
I have noticed that violence doesn't really bother me. I prefer not to be around it because of the way I've chose to live my life now. Violence-
Denalee:
Like you might be a little desensitized to it? It doesn't affect you?
Josh:
Yeah. To see someone get beat up or if you have to be physical with another person, you make that decision in your... Basically you have to make a decision, right? You have to weigh it out. "This is what's going to happen. Am I willing to go to jail for this? Yes. Okay. So we've accepted it. We've ran through all the consequences. Okay. It's time to be violent." Right? And normal people don't think like that.
Denalee:
No. I mean, I don't know if I'm normal, but those wouldn't be my thoughts.
Josh:
Violence is violence.
Denalee:
I don't consider it an option. I mean, I might like if somebody broke into my home, I mean, I might pull a gun out. If you're-
Josh:
I could be driving down the road with my grandma on the truck and somebody cut me off and I feel that it was something that could have caused harm to my grandma, and it will send me from zero to a hundred.
Denalee:
Do you have violent thoughts?
Josh:
I do.
Denalee:
Okay. But you just have control of them?
Josh:
Yeah. You have to make a decision. Right? Do you want to go to prison? No.
Denalee:
I need to ask my husband if he has violent thoughts because he gets pretty worked up in traffic too.
Josh:
He does? Yeah. I've some stories about Dave.
Denalee:
He's quite worrisome. Maybe I need to ask him these questions. So your grandma is pretty cool, so I get why you'd be upset about that. But have you ever acted on those feelings?
Josh:
I have not been a physical altercation since I got out of prison.
Denalee:
Awesome.
Josh:
I made a decision this last time I was in there that I don't want to die in prison. My brother died in prison and my mom's husband died in prison.
Denalee:
Wow.
Josh:
I've seen so many people die in prison. And this last time I was in there, I made a decision that I don't want to die here. I can become something more. I can do this. So I took it serious while I was there with my classes and I just made that decision like, "Hey, become something. Don't be a statistic."
Denalee:
Do you recall anything that happened that made you get to that point? Was there any defining moment or what made you come to that decision that, "I'm not going back to jail a fifth time or prison"?
Josh:
There isn't really anything that can happen to you, right? Because you have to make a decision for yourself. So you'll meet these people. They're like, "Well, I have to do good because my kids are waiting for me." Oh, well that's weird because you obviously didn't give a shit about your kids when you're out there getting high, but now you want to use them for an excuse to change your life? That's bullshit. You didn't care about them while you're out there, so don't use them as your excuse while you're here.
You need to make a decision for yourself. You can't get clean and sober for your kids. You can't change your life for your family. You have to do it for yourself. Because if you don't do it for yourself, it'll never happen.
Denalee:
Why do you think you did not do it for yourself the first or second or third time?
Josh:
Because I liked doing drugs. At that point in my life, there was not a better feeling than being high.
Denalee:
So you didn't mind going to jail to prison?
Josh:
Prison doesn't bother me.
Denalee:
Do you think that's true for other people too?
Josh:
It is.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
There's people that they're okay with being there. It doesn't really bother them.
Denalee:
It's just part of their life.
Josh:
It's their life now.
Denalee:
Just part of their journey. It's no big.
Josh:
Yeah. People get institutionalized. They do.
Denalee:
Fast sounds like?
Josh:
Yeah, it happens.
Denalee:
Well, you spent most of your adult life in prison.
Josh:
Yeah, I spent quite a bit of time in prison. But you can't change your life for somebody else.
Denalee:
No.
Josh:
You can't.
Denalee:
You can't.
Josh:
I would meet guys in there.
Denalee:
You can't even lose weight for somebody else.
Josh:
No.
Denalee:
I've tried.
Josh:
Meet guys there all the time.
Denalee:
You can't do anything.
Josh:
And they'll tell you if you're going to live on a certain tier in prison, you're going to be expected to do things right. There's no free rides. So when you're presented with something that you need to do, whether it's go beat up this dude, go beat up that dude, you need to do something and your time is going to come. And if you choose not to do it... And the most common excuse is why, I have kids waiting for me. I don't want to get in trouble. I don't give a shit.
Denalee:
So there's expected violence, there's expected tasks, and that comes from the leader of whatever your affiliation is?
Josh:
Yeah. They call it-
Denalee:
Well, meaning if you're white or Black.
Josh:
Yeah, it's called putting in work.
Denalee:
Putting in work.
Josh:
And everybody is going to put work in while they're there.
Denalee:
Did you have to put work in? You don't have to tell us what it is.
Josh:
Everybody has to do it. If you want to live on this tier where the drugs are, where all the gambling is going on, or making wine, we're doing those cool things.
Denalee:
So you guys create a whole life there that I guess some people could become comfortable with.
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
Did you do drugs in prison?
Josh:
Yeah, I did a lot of drugs in prison. I probably did meth probably about four or five times a week.
Denalee:
Really?
Josh:
Yeah. We had wine all the time.
Denalee:
You were in jail for drugs and then continued to do them. It's like the system is almost helping you stay in your addiction.
Josh:
If you want to get high, no matter where you're at, prison, jail out here, it's there for you.
Denalee:
So you have to make a huge decision to stop.
Josh:
You do.
Denalee:
So you just woke up one day and said, "I'm done"?
Josh:
I went to prison this last time facing a life sentence in county, and I didn't want to go to prison for the rest of my life. So I beat that felony charge, which is on the last podcast explaining that. And I made a decision. So I beat the life sentence and they sent me off into another county because I was facing a forgery charge. So when I went there, knowing what I was almost went to prison for, I accepted it. I was completely honest with the Jesu of what I did. "This is how I did it. Yes, I'm guilty of this charge. Send me to prison for what I did because I'm not going for life. I'm just going to go for a couple years." And I made the decision. Right... No, not right then. That's a lie. Because I went to prison and did drugs most of the time I was there
Denalee:
Even the last time?
Josh:
Yeah. I was on the main yard and I got rolled up and sent over to the private prison. It's not private anymore. The state now owns the building. And I got sent over there. And while I was there, I don't know why, but I did make a decision while I was there that I don't want to die here. I want to go home.
Denalee:
So did it seem like there was just a switch that was flipped within you?
Josh:
There was something that switched inside.
Denalee:
You just changed? Because you didn't go to rehab, you just quit doing drugs?
Josh:
Just decided.
Denalee:
And it was over?
Josh:
It was done.
Denalee:
Isn't that fascinating?
Josh:
I said it in the last podcast that you have to wake up every day and decide that you're not going to do drugs today. So when I woke up this morning, I decided I'm not going to get high today.
Denalee:
Do you still think about it?
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
In the morning like today?
Josh:
Yeah. You literally have to make that decision every single day for the rest of your life.
Denalee:
See, does not enter my head. I mean, because I've not done that but that's interesting that you still have... It's almost like you're being haunted by it. That's horrifying to me, that you have to think about it every day.
Josh:
That's the life of being a drug addict.
Denalee:
It doesn't ever leave?
Josh:
Some people, it might leave, but my mom's been clean for so long and she still gets thoughts, right?
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
And she has to fight that battle constantly.
Denalee:
How do you fight that battle? What's that look like in your mind?
Josh:
You have to weigh it out. Is it worth it to go out one day and have a great time? What you think is a great time and get high? Is it worth it to go back to prison and throw away everything that you've built? These past five years of my life have been the best five years ever.
Denalee:
Praise God.
Josh:
I am so grateful that I went to prison this last time because it changed my life.
Denalee:
Praise God. See, this looks like he's showing up in your life. Showing up in your mind. Showing up. That's awesome.
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
That's awesome. You've flown. You're doing well.
Josh:
I feel like I'm doing really good. But you will have that battle for the rest of your life.
Denalee:
That makes me sad. I hope that that's gone from you at some point, that you don't have to think about that anymore.
Josh:
Drugs?
Denalee:
Yes. It doesn't even enter your mind?
Josh:
I don't want to do drugs anymore. They're fun. Don't get me wrong.
Denalee:
Really?
Josh:
I had a blast doing them. But I have more fun being sober.
Denalee:
I will say this, my mom has been in the hospital for the last month, back and forth surgery, complications. She's been on Dilaudid and Oxy for a month. I have never seen her so happy in my life. Not that this is a sales or a commercial for drugs, but I can see where she's even enjoying this feeling of not caring about stuff because she's in a miserable position. And you can see where an innocent use of these drugs could turn into something bad. Although I don't see my grandma trying to figure out how to get more. And though I'm sure it happens, but you can see where like, "Okay, you're liking this a little too much, mom." So when you watch this, my mom is fine anybody. My mom is doing great, but you're in that much pain in three surgeries and it's a lot.
Josh:
That's how it starts.
Denalee:
Yes. For a lot of people. For somebody who was close to me ended up in prison, starting with a back injury, and it turned into something bigger and he ended up in prison.
Josh:
My dad died from heart failure a couple months ago. Wait, shit, it's almost a year now.
Denalee:
Oh, I guess it has been, huh?
Josh:
And it's drugs that killed him. I know for a fact it was. He did so many drugs.
Denalee:
Really?
Josh:
Yeah. It's like the only time he and I ever hang out or hung out was when I had drugs. Isn't that shitty?
Denalee:
That is.
Josh:
Our whole relationship was based off of, "Hey, son, I'm going to be coming into town. Do you have anything?" "Of course, dad, come on by."
Denalee:
And as a son, you want your dad's approval because everybody does even if it's sick.
Josh:
Yeah. That was our whole relationship. If I didn't have drugs, there was really nothing there.
Denalee:
So he was living his addiction too.
Josh:
And then he died from heart failure because of his drug use throughout his whole life.
Denalee:
So you guys never really had a close personal relationship?
Josh:
No.
Denalee:
No?
Josh:
He has another son that he was a good dad to and made up words.
Denalee:
Do you know him?
Josh:
I know of him, yeah. [inaudible 00:54:47]
Denalee:
But you don't have a relationship?
Josh:
Yeah, I don't need to know that part of his family.
Denalee:
You said you had another brother die in prison?
Josh:
Biologically, not my brother, but he was my best friend who I considered my brother.
Denalee:
So this is your world. So that's why it's comfortable, but I think it becomes many people's world. So we talked in the previous podcast where you didn't have a real tight relationship with your father and he was pretty abusive, but really fatherless. And that is a huge problem in the prison system, these fatherless men, and then they act out in such aggression, which is interesting. Do you think it's because they didn't have an example?
Josh:
You can blame who you are on whoever you want, but it does come down to what you make your own choices.
Denalee:
But what if you don't know? What if you don't know how to handle your anger? What if nobody has ever taught you? I mean, tot that it's not your fault, but what if nobody taught you how to handle your anger? What if there's no man in your life showing you? You don't pull people off the side of the road and beat them for cutting you off?
Josh:
Right. I try to do that with my son. You might have something. You might be right because with my son I'm very... You don't do this. You don't do that.
Denalee:
This is Lola. She wants down.
Josh:
You don't do this. You don't do that. This is how you're going to live your life, or this is where you're going to go. So you're probably right. A lot of the guys in prison that don't have a dad or didn't have a dad your whole time growing up, there was nobody to keep them in line. So they end up there.
Denalee:
It's interesting and sad at the same time. So thank God your kids have you in that capacity to share. Not everybody gets that, especially after growing up in a certain way, it seems like those cycles often repeat themselves and those patterns repeat.
Josh:
My wife says, I'm really hard on my son and I don't feel that I am, but I just don't want him to go that route.
Denalee:
Sometimes a mama's nurturing heart and a dad's strictness or authoritarian... Maybe not authoritarian style, but there's a hardness that is probably okay, I think that we as women who tend to want to nurture more, have a hard time with, because we want our babies just good and safe and not ever hurt. But that's not the real life and I think you know that. And so you're protecting him in, I think, a pretty good way.
Josh:
I try hard because I don't want him to make any mistakes, and I know he's going to.
Denalee:
Yeah, we just do. That's part of being parenting. It's not doing it perfect, but you're showing up, which is everything.
Josh:
[inaudible 00:57:38] too hard on him and you push him away. Right?
Denalee:
That's a tricky one.
Josh:
You got to find that happy medium that I don't-
Denalee:
Yeah, that authoritarian constant. I think if I had to go back and do it over with my kids, I would be a little more strict. I would have better boundaries and consequences. It was so hard for me to see them hurt. And in my family, how we grew up, I just tried to do everything opposite because I thought, "Okay, this isn't right. I'm just going to do it the opposite way. I went too far the other way with leniency." And I think there's a happy medium where you have boundaries and consequences and you let them fall. But they know it's soft place. They know they're loved. If I could do it different, that's what I would do.
Josh:
Yeah. I was not a good dad to my son when he was young because I was a drug addict. I put the drugs before him. I mean, I put the drugs before everybody, my mom, my wife, my kids. I mean, there was one point where I just... Right before we went to prison this last time, I just didn't even care. I didn't even acknowledge the fact that my son was living in the house. I was-
Denalee:
They were just the kids taking care of themselves?
Josh:
Basically. I was a piece of crap, was not a good dad.
Denalee:
Does he remember?
Josh:
He does. We actually talked about this just the other night. We had a conversation and I told him that obviously, "I'm sorry for what I've done to you and the dad that I was to you." And I told him, "I'll spend the rest of my life trying to make it up to you." And my son told me, he says, "You're doing fine, dad."
Denalee:
Was that sweet?
Josh:
Yeah, it was pretty awesome.
Denalee:
That's pretty good. I think you're doing a good job too.
Josh:
I'm trying.
Denalee:
Proof is in the pudding.
Josh:
We've never been parents before. It's my first time. Right? I'm learning.
Denalee:
It's hard. It's hard. My kids are 31 and 24. It's hard still because you think at a certain point like, "Oh, you're done." But you're not. They still need you. They still need guidance and we've been places they haven't been yet.
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
So you made it through prison four times.
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
The switch was flipped. It didn't take some big intervention. You didn't have to go to rehab forever. You just knew that you didn't want to live this life.
Josh:
Yeah. I was basically living in a rehab. Right, prison?
Denalee:
Okay. Well, that's not really rehab is it?
Josh:
Not really because I was still getting high while I was there. Just made the decision that I don't want to die in prison.
Denalee:
Okay. And then so you leave prison. What's that first day look like?
Josh:
The first day my mom came and picked me up. I remember she came to visit me like I think the week before. And I said, "Okay, when you pick me up, can you bring me an energy drink? A can of chew?" I think that was all I asked for. So she shows up and picks me up the first day walking out the gate. You go through that anxiety again, depending on how long you've been there. I was only there a couple years each time. But still walking out the gate is you get this overwhelming feeling that comes on. Even though you've only been gone a couple years, you feel like you're starting all over again.
We left the prison and... I forget where. We went somewhere. Anyway, she went in to go buy me a phone, a cell phone, and I wouldn't go in, wouldn't go in. I stayed out in the truck. I wasn't ready yet. And then you kind of... Because it's different. It's a feeling. Everything's socially awkward to you.
Denalee:
Maybe have some anxiety, uncertainty?
Josh:
Yeah. You're socially awkward at that point.
Denalee:
What is a concern? What are you thinking?
Josh:
It's like you don't know how to fit in. So still to this day in my life, it's hard to fit in with people. It's been five years now, but when we get together and talk, I don't really have anything to talk about because you guys live your life and you have all these cool things that have gone on in your life and 90% of the stories I can tell you are just going to be about drugs in prison.
Denalee:
That's not true. I've had other stories with you.
Josh:
That's how it feels. Right?
Denalee:
I guess I have a couple comments on that. I understand that you maybe felt like that in the beginning, but you still feel that now?
Josh:
Sometimes.
Denalee:
I don't see you that way at all.
Josh:
You don't?
Denalee:
No. I think it's always interesting. We're talking about our families, but I mean you've helped me with my sons and things that have gone in our lives.
Josh:
With what information did I help you with though?
Denalee:
It's true. I got to be careful.
Josh:
Prison and jail.
Denalee:
No, no. It was with my mental health.
Josh:
Really?
Denalee:
That's what I was dealing with because I didn't want to hurt this person in my life by me doing the wrong thing. So I was asking you what was reasonable. So for me it was you've come out the other side, you've seen what it is. I think you're wise. I think you're wise how you handle your children and your family. I want to know what you truly think because I think I believe you would have my best interests at heart.
Josh:
Of course.
Denalee:
I believe that. I mean, there's other people I could have called about it, but I don't know that they would've answered me as honest... And I do kind of like your blunt style.
Josh:
My kids don't like it.
Denalee:
I do like it. I like the no nonsense. I don't know. I just feel like you've been part of our life and I don't see it that way. I mean, we've talked about a variety of things. I mean, some of its work, a lot of it is work. By the way, if you hadn't seen the first podcast, he works with my husband, but we talk about family stuff, stuff you guys are going through with your kids. Stuff we're going through with our kids. My husband thinks you're... I mean, he would probably say you're his closest friend and he's a little like you. Maybe a standoffish and this is probably-
Josh:
It's hard still to this day because am super embarrassed of who I was and the choices that I made. They did make me into the person I am today, but it's embarrassing.
Denalee:
So if I'd been through that, do you think I should be embarrassed?
Josh:
No. I think that every person is different and how you handle your situations are totally different from the way I would handle them. But it's embarrassing to me sometimes when I'm standing there with people and we're just in casual conversation and I'm like, "Okay, I got no way to..." I don't have any way to fit in with you.
Denalee:
I think that happens to everyone. I mean, that happens to everyone. I mean, I know it happens not probably as much to me because I like to talk to everybody and ask questions. But that's not everybody's personality. So my husband's personality is similar to you where he would probably say similarly even though he hasn't been through your situation. He probably feels the same way. He has a really hard time with small talk, which I imagine you do as well.
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
And I think that might be also a man thing.
Josh:
Yeah, probably.
Denalee:
Yeah. Hard time with small talk. I guess I don't want to be argumentative with you. I don't want you to feel that way because I don't think that's a real feeling. I think that might be a lie you're telling yourself
Josh:
It possibly could be, but it's a struggle. It really is.
Denalee:
Yeah. Because anyone that spends time with you knows you're more than your past. But it is our past. All of our past that help us lead other people forward. I mean, I don't think there's any... If I sat and thought about my past and all the horrible things I've done, I would be really uncomfortable. But if I think of how I overcame them and how I can help other people in that same situation, which is what you do, it helps me a little bit.
Josh:
Well, that's good.
Denalee:
Because that's what you do. You help people overcome those situations.
Josh:
I would love to help people overcome their situations.
Denalee:
You are. Doing this does, I mean we can see it in the response from people. It's doing all of the things. So thank you.
Josh:
No problem.
Denalee:
Has prison changed you in ways?
Josh:
Good ways and bad ways. Bad ways that it's changed me is I'm very, not so much these days, but confrontational. Right? You learn in there. You don't take shit from anybody. Right? You're not going to be weak. Prison made me who I am. I'm not a weak person. I'm very strong, I think. When it comes to other people, I want to be in charge. I want to be that guy. I want to be that person that's above you. That's what prison does to you.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
It takes you from this-
Denalee:
Well, it makes you more safe, right?
Josh:
Right.
Denalee:
The higher you get?
Josh:
It takes you from this normal person that's just living their life and it turns you into this person that needs to be in control on top, my way. This is how it's going to go. And if you don't like it, then you need to tell me, but you're not going to tell me because you're weak. That's the kind of person that you become.
Denalee:
So I see your strength in business. When you're dealing with nonsense, you really handle it well.
Josh:
I try.
Denalee:
And you have appropriate empathy, it seems like for the guys that you work with and manage. But you do have a strength and you know when they're up to no good. You have a strength of calling it out that I think is amazing. I am probably too empathetic. I'd be like, "Oh, really? Okay. Can't make it to work this week. It's too hard." Well, because some of the times our stories are fabulous. Right?
Josh:
Better figure it out.
Denalee:
But you know when to cut through it. You know when to cut through it. I noticed another thing too, as we were getting ready, you're super clean.
Josh:
Am I?
Denalee:
Yeah. You're a clean freak. You notice things that aren't clean.
Josh:
Yeah, I do.
Denalee:
It comes up in conversations. And I said, "We got to wipe this place down. Josh is coming. He's a clean freak."
Josh:
My wife hates it. She really does.
Denalee:
Did that start in prison?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
Okay. Because you have to keep yourself clean there, right?
Josh:
Yes. So I'll tell you a story. I went to prison, I think it was my second time, and I moved in with a lifer. He was in there for murder and I moved in with this guy. There's a toilet. He said, "Just so you know, this isn't anything weird, but if you're in this house, you'll sit to pee on that toilet." And I took that as disrespect like he's trying to make me his bitch. And I'm like, "Okay, well you're not going to tell me what to do." He goes, "Listen, dude, the reason I'm telling you this is because I don't want your on my floor."
Denalee:
That's fair.
Josh:
So while you're in prison, everything is clean. You clean your cell on your hands and your knees, you wipe the floor down, you wipe the walls down, you wipe the beds down. Everything is in order and clean.
Denalee:
Is that as to respect your cellmate?
Josh:
Yes. That's your space.
Denalee:
And yourself.
Josh:
Yeah. You'll also notice that most of the guys in prison shave their entire body.
Denalee:
Really? Why?
Josh:
Yeah. The reason why is because if you're sleeping above me, I don't want your hair falling down on top of my bed. I don't want to come home and your hair is on my blankets.
Denalee:
Interesting.
Josh:
Yeah. 90% of them, they'll shave their
Denalee:
Whole body. And so to protect yourself, if you have no hair, it couldn't have been yours?
Josh:
Right.
Denalee:
Interesting. What happens if a hair does fall?
Josh:
We usually exchange some words about it and I'll let you know. "I don't want your hair on my bed, dude."
Denalee:
What if it happens repeatedly?
Josh:
Because what if I'm sitting down below you and I'm eating some food and you got this dude up above you and his hair falls on your food. That's kind of gross, right?
Denalee:
Yeah.
Josh:
We're probably going to fight.
Denalee:
I just thought that was a small infraction given that I am a mother of two boys and I have a husband and there's always hair to clean up. There's hair from the beard trimming that drives me insane.
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
So I want to know just how this works so I can maybe institute it here in my own home. What happens if the hair does fall repeatedly?
Josh:
We're going to fight.
Denalee:
I don't think I could take them.
Josh:
I think you could. Yeah, I'd probably end up in a fight.
Denalee:
Okay. Did everyone just follows the rules?
Josh:
Yeah, we usually got along pretty good. That one guy I moved in with, I just didn't use the bathroom in the cell because I refuse to sit to pee. And I know why. It was his cell. He was there for the rest of his life. He doesn't want piss on the floor. I get that. There is a toilet out on the tier, so if you need to go to the bathroom, you can use the one out on the tier. So I would always wait.
Denalee:
Do they give you cleaning supplies? Like wipes-
Josh:
Yeah. There's a janitor's closet on the tier. There is a tier janitor that gets paid from the prison. Usually like 25 to 30 cents an hour.
Denalee:
Oh my word.
Josh:
35 cents in Idaho prison was the max I ever made.
Denalee:
What did you do for that money?
Josh:
There's a section out at the prison that's called Correctional Industries, and it's pretty cool place. You can learn stuff in there. That's where all your license plates come from.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
All the forest service trucks that have the steel racks on the back of them, those are all built out of the prison as well. There's the license plate shop in there. There's a welding shop in there, which is the metal shop. There's a wood shop in there, which builds a lot of the stuff in the courtrooms and office buildings for the state. That's all built out at the prison.
Denalee:
Really?
Josh:
Inmates build all of that. Yeah.
Denalee:
That's amazing.
Josh:
Inmates deliver all of that and put it together. So you can learn a trade out there.
Denalee:
So there's opportunity?
Josh:
There is if you want to use it. But most of us just went to work out there because it was the highest paying job.
Denalee:
Okay. And then you can use that at the commissary?
Josh:
Yep.
Denalee:
Okay. Did you have help with your commissary?
Josh:
My mom would send me money. My grandma would send me money.
Denalee:
Is that a necessity to be safe?
Josh:
It really is. If you're going to be there for a while, it usually costs about 600 bucks to get you going in the beginning.
Denalee:
Okay. To get the necessities?
Josh:
Your basic necessities, which is your hygiene products, your TV because you could buy a TV and your headphones and all the necessities that you're going to do. Gym shorts.
Denalee:
Okay. What would be a good monthly amount for someone to live reasonably?
Josh:
I did it on $75 a month.
Denalee:
Okay. Is that including what you made?
Josh:
No. That was with my money I made from my job and my mom would send me money every month.
Denalee:
Okay. Does that help you stay safe getting money?
Josh:
Not really. I mean, unless you're gambling and you don't have a way to pay it. So if people are sending you money, you are buying commissary, you better be able to pay your bill when that time comes. People will get beat up over their gambling debts.
Denalee:
So it's just a violent place. So when you were released, where did you first go? Did you go-
Josh:
I went to my mom's.
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
I paroled out this last time to my mom's house. Let's see. I got home and basically just hung out that day with my mom and didn't really even leave. Hung out on the front porch a little bit.
Denalee:
You have to go to a halfway house. They just released you?
Josh:
No. If you don't have a place to go, you can go to the halfway house. You can basically parole anywhere as long as it's within the guidelines of... But you can go to a halfway house. I don't recommend it. It's usually a bunch of drugs in there. I mean, if that's your thing, if you don't want to turn your life around, yeah, go have this.
Denalee:
If you want to go back there?
Josh:
Yeah.
Denalee:
Okay. And then you were able to get a job?
Josh:
Okay. So...
Denalee:
You didn't have any problems?
Josh:
Nope. I actually got out of prison and that very next day I called my boss, who I work for now, and asked if I can come to work.
Denalee:
My husband?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
Oh, that was your first job back out of this last time?
Josh:
Yeah, I called-
Denalee:
Oh, wow.
Josh:
I got out and I was back to work by the third day I was out of prison.
Denalee:
Wow.
Josh:
Because the first day-
Denalee:
See, he likes you.
Josh:
... hung out with my mom. Second day I had to go check in with the parole office, got all that situated and then on the third day I went back to work.
Denalee:
Wow. So some people have a hard time getting a job.
Josh:
They do.
Denalee:
And you just didn't experience that?
Josh:
Usually these guys that are having a hard time is because they went into prison when they were young. They don't have a trade. They don't really have a good work history. So when they do get out of prison, they don't really know anything. So they struggle because there's no help for them. They'll try to say, "Oh, go to your parole officer and he'll help you." I've been on parole since 2018 this time and I think I've seen my parole officer like three times.
Denalee:
Oh, wow.
Josh:
Yeah. They don't really.
Denalee:
So you have guys that show up to the job site and want jobs that have probably been in your position? Correct?
Josh:
Yes.
Denalee:
And how do they do?
Josh:
That really depends on what they're trying to do with themselves is what they're going to do.
Denalee:
So you've hired guys from the work center to work with us and there's been some success stories, but in the interest of privacy, we're not going to mention it because some of them are still with us and we don't have their permission.
Josh:
Right.
Denalee:
There are many unsuccess stories.
Josh:
There's a lot of these guys that I hire from the work center. It doesn't work out. They don't really have the drive. They're just really here because they can get out of prison.
Denalee:
Okay. And we're an option that is known to hire.
Josh:
Yeah. If I could hire one, just imagine if he just... I just want to help people. I really do. And I see the guys at the work center and I'm like, "Okay. Maybe I give them a job here and I just help them out as much as possible. Maybe they'll succeed and maybe they'll make it."
Denalee:
And some guys just need a shot.
Josh:
They do.
Denalee:
But when you're hiring these people and it doesn't work out, do you see anything, any common threads as to why it doesn't work?
Josh:
Yeah. If they're still in prison, they haven't been released, usually it doesn't work out because of their work ethics. Right?
Denalee:
Okay.
Josh:
And they're just not...
Denalee:
It's not their heart.
Josh:
Yeah. But when they do get released, most of the time it doesn't work out because they fall right back into that same pattern that they had before.
Denalee:
Okay. So they're good for a while maybe while they're on probation?
Josh:
Yeah. Well, when they're on parole, they try, but a lot of the times they just try to beat the system. They're not going to be-
Denalee:
They're just not ready.
Josh:
Yeah, they're not ready. There's a lot of people that aren't-
Denalee:
The switch hasn't been flipped yet?
Josh:
No. A lot of people aren't ready and they will never be ready until they decide to change their life.
Denalee:
When Dave was doing your part of the job, a lot of times he'd say, "When we'd get these guys," he goes, "it's like they're just doing their time. It's like they're just getting through it. Their heart wasn't really in growing and building with us." Do you find that at all?
Josh:
That goes with 90% of the people that are employed. There's only three of us that are here for the company. The rest of them are just trying to get a check.
Denalee:
It's hard work. I get it. It's hard work. Okay. So do you have any advice for somebody because... So this is what we're told. We're told it's impossible to get a job. It's impossible to move forward because people judge them. This just isn't a thing. What do you think the truth is?
Josh:
I think it's a bunch of BS. If you want to work, you can work. My wife is a convicted felon, has a great job, great benefit package, earning a retirement. A lot of my friends don't have very many, but a lot of them are convicted felons that are working and doing just fine. So the reason a lot of the guys you'll see that can't get jobs is because those are the guys that went to prison when they were young. They don't have work history. So when they do get out, they don't know what to do and they don't have...
Denalee:
Anyone guiding them?
Josh:
There's not really anyone to help them.
Denalee:
Okay. What would you say to 20-year-old Josh?
Josh:
Oh.
Denalee:
If you could give him some advice.
Josh:
20-year-old me, I guess I got a chance to go back to talk to myself for the very first time before I was going to prison, I would say that, "The place that you're going right now will always be here waiting for you. You need to make a choice in your life to go a different way because this place will always have its door open and waiting. They want you to be here. You need to focus on you and only you and get yourself right," I think is what I would tell myself.
Denalee:
That would be a great thing.
Josh:
Prison will always leave the light on.
Denalee:
I guess some opportunities won't, right?
Josh:
You can always count on the Department of Corrections to have a light on and the door open.
Denalee:
Well, it is a business. Well, thank you Josh so much for joining us again and sharing with us the stories of what prison was like and what it looked like afterwards for you. And we're blessed to have you.
Josh:
Thank you.
Denalee:
Not only on the show but as part of our family. So we thank you and everyone thank you for tuning in and supporting Josh and this channel. So be sure to like and subscribe. It helps us and it helps us to bring stories like his. And make sure to watch his first show, which we talked about, the road that led him to these places, these prisons. So thank you so much.
Josh:
Thank you.