Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
We interview sustainability leaders across industries to learn what they are working on and how they are steering their companies toward a climate-friendly world.
Voiceover - 00:00:10:
Welcome to Open Source Sustainability. On this show, Alex Lassiter, CEO of GreenPlaces, talks with sustainability leaders to learn how companies are adapting their business models to be in line with sustainability goals. We believe sustainability has to be open source to be successful, and these leaders have offered us a glimpse inside their strategies and the hopes that we can all move forward together. We are fascinated by some of the unique challenges these sustainability leaders face and are excited to dive deeper. In this episode, Alex is talking with Lisa Hart Sheperd from Lamp House Strategy. Lisa shares her 25-year journey in researching the legal industry and the genesis of Lamp House. Join us as we delve into the dynamics of the legal landscape, exploring the factors driving firms towards ESG considerations. We'll also uncover Lamp House vision for the future, envisioning a legal community with heightened performance and positive impacts. Thanks for joining us, Lisa.
Alex Lassiter - 00:01:12:
Lisa, welcome to Open Source Sustainability podcast. We are so excited to have you here today. Thank you for taking the time, especially in this busy time of year.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:01:21:
Thanks, Alex. Delighted to be with you.
Alex Lassiter - 00:01:24:
Absolutely. Well, I think just to get started, what would be great to do is to hear a little bit about your background and the forming of Lamp House Strategy. Who are you and what is Lamp House?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:01:35:
Gosh. So I've spent, I guess, 25 years researching the legal industry. I hate to admit that. It's far too long a time. And I guess when I started in the legal industry, I went into a business planning role. Previous to that, I've been working in market research in other industries and straight away realized that law firms were lacking in data and beyond sort of hours and financial data. So after spending a few years there, I started a business which created, I guess, data sets for leadership. So we were doing things like measuring legal departments, buying behaviors, how they perceive the different law firm brands and what was it like to be a client. And lastly, in sort of the last decade, we focused quite heavily on the talent experience of working at those firms, what engaged them and what frustrated them.
Alex Lassiter - 00:02:27:
Excuse me, and what brought this about? Other than just lack of data, were you seeing it being increasingly competitive as firms are looking to benchmark? Was there anything kind of happening in the legal industry that you feel like at least over the last 20 to 25 years has really made benchmarking and access this information important?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:02:47:
I think they've just got more and more competitive, but competitive not just around clients, but also around the talent pool. And they're super bright, often the best of the candidates coming out of schools and colleges and universities. So I think that competition means they have to keep raising the bar every year. And I think sort of to come back to your original question, why did we focus in this area? I think after selling the business, which I had previously to Thomson Reuters, I wanted to focus on something with a higher purpose. And in the last few years, one would focused on researching talent. We'd found that there was I guess some not very nice things happening in the industry. High levels of burnout, diversity starts being pretty shocking, addiction, all sorts of things. So that kind of grueling hours and quite masculine-ized culture, meant that diversity wasn't great. And then I guess turning to the clients and the demands they had of firms, they're very clearly going on this journey of where they're becoming more stakeholder first as opposed to just shareholder first. And I think firms are going to have to start following on that path. You know, there's a gap already and they need to start to try and close that.
Alex Lassiter - 00:04:04:
How do firms today think about defining stakeholders? Like for a professional services or law firm, like what are the various stakeholders? And how do they sort of think about managing those things?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:04:15:
I think in sort of order of importance, it's partners first as the shareholders, the owners of the firm. That's where the financial pressure comes from in most cases. Then it would be clients second as the bringer of the revenue, hopefully the profits. And then following that would be their talent. I think they see the other stakeholders as important, but those three certainly, the priority stakeholders.
Alex Lassiter - 00:04:40:
And we're going to talk a little bit later about some of the trends of ESG reporting requirements amongst the clients of a firm. Particularly in your research over the last 20 to 25 years in this new focus on ESG. There's a lot of this that's inward looking. So how do you think about this as far as the importance for a law firm? You know, as they're thinking about managing their stakeholders and how everybody feels about it. But in terms of the partnership, why is it important to worry if it's too masculine or too one color or whatever it might be? Like, why does that, why, why does that matter today?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:05:17:
Well, I think that they know they need to represent their clients. We're also increasingly diverse. We're seeing more diversity in legal departments, but not just represent who they are, what they look like, but also the values that they have. And we're seeing those values set change. And I think coming back to sort of the internal view as well, it's also leaders wanting to leave a more positive legacy. You know, they're thinking, you know, when they get to partnership level, they've generally got children who are growing up, starting careers, and they want to be able to recommend law as a great, rewarding career. And, you know, they're reticent to do that sometimes because of all the downsides.
Alex Lassiter - 00:05:59:
So when you think about how Lamp House will help firms going forward, do you have sort of like a guiding vision or mission behind this like, 20 years from now or 10 years now? What is Lamp House? What's the impact that Lamp House has on the legal community?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:06:18:
And I hope that we sort of act as a bit of a stimulus to raise the bar for everyone. That's what I would like. Sort of when we look at the line where it sits today, I hope that everybody's performance goes up. They're making less of a negative impact on climate and having that positive impact, influence with their clients around their sort of climate footprint. And also that they've got a more diverse representative talent pool. And that they haven't got some of the issues that they have with that talent pool right now. And also supply chain, the societies they're based in, generally, they're making a greater impact all around.
Alex Lassiter - 00:06:59:
As it pertains to the talent pool, what are some of the common challenges that firms today face?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:07:05:
Well, it's kind of a, not quite, but nearly a 24-7 service. And often it's quite small teams because the bigger the teams, there's more duplication of work. And so it means that they kind of have to be always on. So we're doing some research across the industry with talent working at firms at the moment. And, you know, it's long hours. It's unpredictable hours, always outside of a normal working day. And a lot of pressure that goes with that, too, as well as always at the same time trying to hit their targets and looking for that progression and building relationships around the firm. So it's and with clients. So, you know, it is a it's a tough but rewarding career.
Alex Lassiter - 00:07:46:
And every year y'all produce an annual report. Tell us a little bit about what sorts of data points come out of that and were there any kind of surprises or notable callouts this year?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:07:58:
Well, I guess this is the first one. We're only 18 months old. So the first one came out, I think, of November, only last month. It seems like a long time ago. It was super interesting to do that first. What's the current state of play? We chose the sort of top 125 firms across three markets, which is the UK, US and Canada. The average firm, I guess, is a general lack of sophistication. So they don't have some of the basic foundations in place. Like, they're not measuring their scope. One, two or three measures, they're not setting diversity targets and certainly not doing any of that in a transparent way. So that's the average. We found that looking at market differences, that US and Canadian firms were a long way behind the UK. And there's reasons for that, which we'll probably come back to. But we also, from a positive sense, found some really strong performers, people that were doing wide range of activity, setting quite challenging targets, being very transparent about when they hit and didn't hit those targets. So that was the positive news. Back to the negatives, I guess there were some real black spots for the industry as a whole. So very little activity around people with disability, neurodivergence. So I think that's a problem because that's something that we're seeing in the broader corporate world, being focused on more of these different aspects of diversity rather than race and gender, which is pretty well covered at many of the law firms.
Alex Lassiter - 00:09:29:
So I hear a lot around starting with measurements. You mentioned SCOPE 1, SCOPE 2, carbon emissions and carbon footprints. Before you set even a target, having to make sure that you measure. Do you have a good sense whether it's fully out in the open and 100% transparent, but amongst the 100, 125 firms that you've covered, what percentage of those are doing some sort of measurement today? And I know it's your first report, but were you able to see how that's changed in the last few years and even kind of predict going forward a little bit of, is that first step going to become commonplace for every firm?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:10:11:
Overall, we found that just over 20% were measuring in a transparent way. I suspect it's quite a bit higher than that. And they're just not feeling safe enough to publish those findings at the moment. But we can tell from reading the reports that often it might be just their sort of first or second year of doing that. So I think the growth is going to be quite rapid if you think the number that have just started within the last year.
Alex Lassiter - 00:10:36:
And so going forward, do you see, and I know you said it's different for the UK, Canada, and the US, but is this something that you imagine becoming, you know, 50% or 70% or 100%? Like what percentage of firms do you see eventually, whether through their own internal views or something that's impressed upon them of clients, but where will people get to? Like, what does good look like?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:11:02:
I think we'll see virtually all of them eventually doing it, whether they're forced through regulation or whether it's of their own accord. But if you take the UKF and mention that they were ahead in terms of the range and volume of activity, but, you know, you're getting to around 50% in that market, measuring and reporting. Big, big, like less than 5% in the US. So, you know, you're already seeing a big delta and that's just happened in a few, you know, two, three years.
Alex Lassiter - 00:11:31:
With some of the things happening stateside, whether it's the California legislation, whether it's more corporate pressure amongst S&P 500, rumorings of SEC disclosure, things like that. What are the things that you're seeing that's led such a discrepancy between the US and the UK? And how do you see that changing?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:11:55:
Well, we don't see as much as the negative backlash, that's for sure, in UK and broader Europe. So I think that helps. It's not as politicized, which also helps. It's kind of seen as a separate issue to politics. I think the fact that in the UK, it's been such a sort of vocal area for the talent coming in as well. You know, quite a big voice around that, which I know you've had in pockets in the US and with certain student groups getting together. I think all of that just says that firms need to get ahead of this, stop measuring it, being able to report on it in a way where they can control the narrative and the dialogue rather than it's being measured by some third party, which, you know, might not understand the exact nuances and the challenges. So, I just think it's something that people have to try and keep away from politics where they can. And measuring reporting, that shouldn't be politicized.
Alex Lassiter - 00:12:52:
Sure. And for firms, you know, other stakeholders, be it new hires and graduates, but also in terms of customer pressure. What sort of trends are you, are you kind of monitoring, like what you're seeing as kind of the big polls happening both here and abroad and how you see that changing?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:13:11:
Yeah, well, we've been doing some surveys of GCs, you know, heads of legal department around how much is this playing a role sort of in the way that they select or feel favorably towards the law firms that they're using. And we found that over 90% said that this was an important issue to their organization. Irrelevant of whether they agreed with them or not, it was something that they were having to tackle and look at and get ready for the compliance that will be coming their way. And they expect their firms to, you know, to follow suit. Particularly those firms that they're choosing to get advice on these issues. So we found that 50% were now asking them to report on some aspect of ESG. So that might be just diversity targets, that might be just environmental impact, it might be a whole range of different factors. And we're also increasingly seeing that the bigger spenders who have the big panels, they might set minimum requirements. So they might say, you know, you need to be an eco-vardist at a certain level, or you have to comply with these seven or eight factors to even be considered to be on our panel.
Alex Lassiter - 00:14:19:
Wow. So 90% of GCs were surveyed, were saying that this is an important issue to them, that a law firm reporting is important to them, is that right?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:14:33:
They said, just over 90% said it was an important issue for their organization. And then 50% said that they were asking their firms to report in some way.
Alex Lassiter - 00:14:44:
Wow.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:14:44:
Yeah.
Alex Lassiter - 00:14:45:
Wow. That's quite a bit.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:14:46:
Yeah.
Alex Lassiter - 00:14:48:
That's quite a bit of pressure. And you mentioned something there too, because I have seen this as something, and I know we were at a conference a couple of weeks ago talking about this, but the practice area of ESG for law firms is really expanding. So we're seeing an expansion of services amongst environmental law practices. When you mentioned even more pressure for choosing somebody to advise on these issues, were you able to see how important that was, if a GC is evaluating a firm to get advice on ESG or environmental laws or whatever it might be to make sure that they were also practicing what they were advising on?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:15:24:
Yeah. Well, we wish we'd asked that question in retrospect, that will be going into the next survey. It's not something we asked directly, but anecdotally we've heard that from our general counsel advisory board. But it just makes sense that that's the way it's going to head. And we found that over 80% of firms were selling ESG advice as a service. So it's a real sort of contrast with that just sort of 20, 22% reporting on some of the basics versus over 80% selling that advice.
Alex Lassiter - 00:15:58:
Across your 25 years in this industry, have you seen other trends move in that same sort of way where, you know, firms start to give advice on a subject, making sure that when that lens is directed to them, that they can speak from experience, that they also are meeting these obligations?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:16:14:
I guess things like data protection, cybersecurity, some of those and some of the areas that became certainly in the EU sort of modern slavery policy, those sorts of things. Obviously, they had to get their house in order to be able to advise on those. But I think the difference with this, it's become. Like the regulation is trailing, almost. You know, what's accepted practice now, certainly for leading organizations in whatever industry they are, they are ahead of where the regulation is, which I think is different to some of the other trends that we've seen.
Alex Lassiter - 00:16:52:
I have seen on the cybersecurity, as you think about that, when GDPR and other cybersecurity needs were released first in the UK and Europe, and then obviously migrated over here through California, at least from my own personal experience, that was something that came very quickly. There was a period of time five or 10 years ago of maybe we can avoid, maybe we won't have to, depending on what industries that we played in. But, about every law firm that I've ever spoken to in the last few years has some sort of certification or internal perspective on their own, you know, cybersecurity needs. And I can certainly see something like this following in similar suit.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:17:33:
Yeah, it's just, I mean, as you know, it's so broad ranging, this topic. And I think just tackling the different threads. You know, as best you can. You can't expect to be the best at every different area.
Alex Lassiter - 00:17:46:
That's absolutely right. Well, what are you seeing as the big challenge for people? I see all talk to firms and they're trying to figure out like, where do I begin? What do I do? How do I do it well? What do you hear when you're talking to folks sort of the, I think the bigger challenges for them to begin doing this.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:18:05:
Yeah, I think it's having enough, I guess, evidence, voice, influence to be able to get the investment that's needed because there are resources, whether that's people or it's buying the consultants or the different services you need to get all the different foundations in place. So having that evidence is important. Part of that evidence has to be a baseline of where the firm is. You know, how do we compare to our peers? What are we doing? And then I think the other important sort of issue to get hold of is how important, is this to the people who work at this firm? You know, getting a reading from the partnership, from the talent, the younger talent at the firm to understand, you know, where should this stand relative to our other priorities? And I think the firms that we know that have gone about those types of exercise have been quite surprised how interested people are in generally that they're working with some, at some way, who wants to be a leader in this type of area.
Alex Lassiter - 00:19:06:
How does that tactically usually start? Is it a survey that goes out to the firm saying how important is this issue to you? Is it anecdotal evidence? What's sort of the I guess, the basics of blocking and tackling of how you began assessing. How important this is to the firm.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:19:24:
Well, being sort of data researchers, we all always say a survey is good because you're going to have that hard quantitative evidence. But I think even if it's getting groups of people together, you know, polling in the room, understanding how people feel in the moment, what are the priorities, if you give them a range of different aspects to look at, how important is this relative to some of the historical priorities we've had? I think just getting that sense from the group is super important.
Alex Lassiter - 00:19:54:
Is that typically the first piece of working with a Lamp House? Is it to assess how important this is to various stakeholders? Is that typically how you all engage or how does it typically begin?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:20:05:
No, it tends to begin with benchmarking the firm against our broader pool. So benchmarking them against an average, against the leaders, against a peer group that they might have to see, okay, where are we at the moment? You know, in terms of the sophistication of our approach, you know, what are we missing? And then from that, you kind of know where you are and where you want to get to next, using that sort of people feedback to help you prioritize what comes next.
Alex Lassiter - 00:20:35:
If a firm wanted to begin understanding where they stacked up against their peers, what sorts of information do they need to get you to do that? Like if someone's listening to this and says, I really care about this, I want to do it, but I need to have some data that helps. What do they need to be able to provide to you to be able to build that case?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:20:57:
Well, if they have been in our 125 firms, we'll already have a kind of full analysis of how they measure up. We have found for the companies we've then gone in and done a sort of more in-depth analysis of that often there's a lot more going on behind the scenes that they haven't yet put on their website. So that's where we'll sort of give them a framework and they'll mark off from there the extra things that they're doing that they're not being public about that. So then we can say, okay, this is just a communications gap for these seven areas. However, these are 25 more areas where you're not doing something and you should be. And we'll sort of grade those into these are basic foundations. These are more advanced that you might look at a second phase or a third phase of your development.
Alex Lassiter - 00:21:44:
If you were to think about the low-hanging fruit, the things that firms can be doing, we'll say that 20% of the effort, but 8% of the impact, what is kind of the first three or four things that that every firm really at this stage ought to be doing?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:22:02:
I think that every firm now should be putting in place the steps to measure their Scope one, two, three, because that's just going to be a fundamental for any organization of a meaningful size. That's a definite on more the people side, which I guess is the next key area, measuring the different areas of diversity is really key. Measuring the sense of well-being at the firm. They already tend to measure pro bono, particularly in the US, but also starting to have some of the key governance infrastructure in there as well. So whether that's let's agree to once a year report, whether that's part of an integrated report or a separate, a responsible business report, report on where we are, where we're heading, those sorts of aspects, and it's something that people look for and become a communications tool for this area of work.
Alex Lassiter - 00:22:57:
It's interesting because a lot of what we hear in terms of, I think, common points of we'll call it anxiety is, well, what if we aren't that good? You know, if we, what if we do our measurement and we're really poor on all of these subjects, is that a risk to the firm? But what I'm hearing from you is maybe a little different. It's more about, are you measuring or are you not? At a later stage, it might be, are you better or are you not? But this seems to be relatively low-risk because it's, are you participating in measuring or are you not participating? Am I understanding that right?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:23:31:
Yeah, because it's about progress. That's what we all need to do. And everybody's going to have a different baseline, but it's about, do you care enough to know where you sit? And do you care enough to put in the right steps to start to make progress? And, you know, everyone's going on this journey, so people are pretty understanding. To begin with, but that's only going to last so long. You don't want to be playing catch up on this sort of area.
Alex Lassiter - 00:23:58:
When firms have an understanding of where they rank, how they benchmark, if they've measured their Scope 1, Scope 2, or Scope 3 emissions versus not, when they take that information, what are some of the common questions that they have, especially in terms of like, how does this help us grow the partnership? You know, if we talk to a firm that says, well, yes, I rank poorly on these things, but I don't know if any of my customers have demanded it. What's typically your response there? Like, how do you, how do you sort of help them make the connection between doing this and then their actual like business objectives?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:24:33:
Yeah. I think that people are not necessarily looking for the impact measures now, but they will. And so getting ready for that. Being in a position where you're considered to have the right infrastructure in place. Talent's going to start to request it more and they already are requesting it, but they just want, people want to see organizations making effort. Making effort to be better. And without that, that's when people who have these values are going to stop buying from those types of firms that aren't showing those efforts. They're going to stop wanting to work at those type of firms. They're going to be attracted to the firms that are making the right moves. So it's that loss of clients, loss of talent, which is the big risk.
Alex Lassiter - 00:25:27:
What sort of data points do you often bring to firms around that access to talent, have you seen anything from the data that would say firms that report carbon footprints or don't report carbon footprints have X? What are the sort of things that you're seeing in terms of the access to talent poll?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:25:47:
So we do this piece of work with Chambers and Partners, which are a directory rankings business. And we've done a survey with them across over 100 law firms looking at drivers engagement for talent and also looking at sort of which areas talent are happy with and which they're not. And efforts towards climate change is one of the lowest performing areas. We found that, if they feel their firm is authentic about the claims they make in relation to being a responsible business or ESG, then they're likely to recommend the firm goes right up, their happiness goes up, their motivation goes up. So we're seeing these strong correlations between sort of high talent retention, engagement, et cetera, and the responsible business measures.
Alex Lassiter - 00:26:36:
Do you have any statistics or data around, I don't know, percentage of graduates that would choose a firm or would not choose a firm because of one of these issues or would? Have you seen anything in the data that suggests anything like that?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:26:53:
We're not currently including students. It's only people once they've got to the firms. But we do do this correlation analysis to see how important all these factors are. And that's where we're seeing them becoming increasingly important. And even for partners, people assume it's just the younger talent. But actually, you know, over half the partners also showed strong correlations in these areas.
Alex Lassiter - 00:27:16:
Have you, as you think about this on the customer side of things for a law firm trying to differentiate itself or earn business or keep business, have you seen any numbers that correlate to being able to win deals or the opposite of losing deals because of this? Anything on that side that would be helpful?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:27:35:
Again, that's going to be in our next round of research. One of the things we're doing with the data is we're going to be making all of the data available to legal departments for free so that they can go and look at the firms they're considering selecting for a piece of work or the firms that are on their panels, and they can compare them and how we scored them across all of the different areas. But they can also dig in and see what types of activity each firm is doing. So they can look at a firm and say, are they measuring? Are they reporting on their Scope 1, 2, 3? So what we want to then understand in return from the general counsel for giving them all this data is, you know, how much of a role will this play in your decision-making and start to see, to track that as it changes over time.
Alex Lassiter - 00:28:19:
And general counsels, I imagine with 90% saying this is important, has indicated that this is a decision factor that they want to be able to use as they figure out who they use for representation.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:28:30:
Yes. Yeah. I mean, not everyone, obviously.
Alex Lassiter - 00:28:33:
Of course. Yeah.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:28:34:
But even those that might have a different, you know, different political view or whatever it might be, their organizations are usually getting onto this. The dreaded procurement department are starting to ask questions, you know, the increasing role of legal Ops. They're starting to build these additional criteria into how they select and approve suppliers.
Alex Lassiter - 00:28:56:
Makes total sense. Well, what advice would you give firms today as they think about this, if they're in a position today where they aren't yet doing any sort of public reporting, but have at least the rumblings internally of something that we might want to do, but haven't been able to make that business case. Are there any kind of tactical steps that you recommend for these firms as they build the business case for beginning their measurement process?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:29:23:
Yeah, well, definitely to join. There's a lot of collaborative groups out there. And with their peers, this is an area where firms should be able to share best practices, experiences, pain points. So joining those sorts of groups is a very obvious step. Of course, I'm going to say, find out where you are, benchmark your activity. That's something we can help with. Setting those priorities and capturing that baseline at the same time. So you can sort of know where are the areas we really need to close those gaps. Creating a roadmap. And then being transparent about the progress. I think that's the most important thing because without communicating what you're doing, it's kind of lost all that, all that effort.
Alex Lassiter - 00:30:09:
So communication of this is about as important as doing it because for these GCs making decisions, they need to be able to easily access and find out and assess.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:30:19:
Yes. And for incoming talent as well.
Alex Lassiter - 00:30:24:
Makes total sense. So I assume they can go to Lamp House's website. What's the best way to sort of engage to get that initial benchmarking done? What's, where did they begin from that perspective?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:30:36:
Yeah, just get in touch with us @LampHouse and we can share our report, which we made available for free to the whole market, which hopefully is a good background read. And yes, we'd love to help any firm benchmark to know where their gaps are. And if they need any support after that, we're there to help or recommend organizations like you that can help them then do the implementation.
Alex Lassiter - 00:30:58:
Absolutely. Well, so we'll make sure to put the link to the report and the podcast notes so that people have an easy way to be able to go get to it. But is there anything that I didn't ask today that I should, things that you're seeing that are surprising? Is there anything else I should be asking?
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:31:15:
I don't think so. I think we covered everything.
Alex Lassiter - 00:31:18:
Okay. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for joining today. We hope you'll keep us up to date with what you're seeing in the market, what data and trends particularly around this. And particularly on that report, especially as benchmarks come out and we start to see more around how doing ESG and beginning measurement and making progress can influence the success of a firm. So thank you for sharing.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:31:41:
And I think also, you know, we're seeing more and more roles that specialize in this area within firms. So I think we will have a growing community around this area. And certainly that's something that I know you're happy to support and get involved with and something we'll be doing too. So the more people can get together and talk and share. I think that's going to really help everybody move forward.
Alex Lassiter - 00:32:05:
Great. Well, Lisa, thank you so much for joining today. Really appreciate it. It's super interesting. And I think y'all's perspective on the market is really helpful, especially as so many firms are trying to figure out how to do this the first time. So thank you.
Lisa Hart Shepherd - 00:32:20:
Thanks, Alex.
Voiceover - 00:32:21:
Thank you to Lisa for joining us and thank you for listening. If you like this show, be sure to leave a review and follow this podcast wherever you like to listen so you don't miss an episode. This podcast is powered by Green Places. If you are looking to reduce your company's environmental impact and reach your sustainability goals, visit greenplaces.com to learn more. We'll talk with you next time on Open Source Sustainability.