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Join us on our journey to rediscover God's heart for creation and explore what it means to love our neighbors and practice biblical stewardship in today's world. We will examine issues like climate change through a lens of faith and hope that is rooted in God's redemptive purpose for all of creation. This podcast is generously sponsored by Young Evangelicals for Climate Action (YECA).
Welcome to episode one of Rivers in the Desert. I'm Beatrice Shackleford.
Aislynn:And I'm Aislynn Patrick. We are on
Beatrice:a journey to rediscover God's heart for creation and biblical stewardship and to better understand today's environmental challenges. As we start recording this, I'm thinking back to one year ago when I first met you, Aislynn. We met in an airport in Frankfurt, Germany. It was my first time out of the country. And then from there, we went to Baku, Azerbaijan.
Beatrice:And we were there for COP 29 , which is a United Nations conference on climate change, for those of you who aren't familiar. We were both 20. We were both in school. We spent a week at that conference together, becoming close friends and struggling through meeting people, hearing their stories of real hurt and suffering and climate change. And also feeling on fire and empowered to do something about it in a way that we had never before been.
Beatrice:We were both going with the same Christian organization. And for us, I think, some of the first times in our lives, we were really surrounded by Christians who saw this as God's calling for their lives. And we were surrounded by this body of Christians from around the, all around the world who are telling their stories about what was happening in their home communities and how that was harming their crops. Storms were breaking down their infrastructure and endangering the people around them in a way that we personally hadn't experienced before. And so we felt this strong calling out of a love for our neighbors, but we also weren't really sure what to do with that.
Beatrice:Because by the end of that week, we were both heading home and we had only just met each other. So we didn't know, we didn't really know what was gonna happen to us at that point. We didn't know how we were gonna keep acting. We were so on fire to do something and to serve these people and to honor their stories. And we just didn't know what to do.
Beatrice:And I remember sitting at that last day, we were sitting in the Italian Pavilion, just talking about this and struggling through this. And we came up with the idea for this podcast very, very roughly. But at that time, we felt totally unempowered to do that because a, we're both terrified of speaking in public. We're both not technologically savvy. We both are scared of cameras.
Beatrice:So it felt totally outside of our comfort zone. But at the same time, we felt such a strong calling to do something, particularly in communicating how our faith was a part of this story. Because we were at that time surrounded by Christians who were involved in this in a way we never had been before. And it really empowered this sense of my faith is why I'm doing this. And we wanted to share that with other Christians in our lives.
Beatrice:But, yeah, we just didn't know how to do that. And then over the course of a year, here we are recording episode one of Rivers in the Desert.
Aislynn:I love that. When people ask when this podcast started, I think there's kind of two answers. I think the first answer is the one you just gave. It was dreamed up at this climate conference. And I do remember at that time, I just got the sense that it was from God.
Aislynn:And I can't explain it, but I just felt like this was something that God had put on my heart and on your heart. And then some time passed after COP 29 . We came home. We finished out our school year. And I think for both of us, we kept dreaming of this podcast and we would talk about it on our phone calls.
Aislynn:And then it sort of began coming to life this past summer, Bea you And you came and visited and we had a week together. And it was during that time that we actually sat down and wrote our initial outline for these episodes. So that's part two of how this podcast came into being.
Aislynn:And as we were sitting on the floor brainstorming this, I think it was the night before you had to go back. Yeah. We were really sad. And we were thinking, what do we want to be kind of the essence of this podcast or what do we want the theme to be? And I'll give you credit for this because I think it was you that said, I really want this podcast to feel hopeful and to be inspiring for people.
Aislynn:And we wanted to sort of hold the difficult truth of climate change in tension with the hope that we have in Jesus and the hope that we have in our faith. And so as we were searching for Bible passages that we could use to really embody that theme, we came to Isaiah 43. And this chapter is all about God's reassurance to Israel that despite their past failures and impending exile, He remains their creator and redeemer, and He will ultimately restore them. And as we were reading through this, we just felt like that theme of restoration and redemption and God's heart that is visible through that was so on point for what we were trying to say. And so in particular, Isaiah 43: 19 is the verse that this podcast is named after.
Aislynn:So it says, See, I am doing a new thing. Now it springs up. Do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland. And then in verse 20, it says, the wild animals honor me, the jackals and the owls, because I provide water in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland to give drink to my people, my chosen, the people I form for myself, that they may proclaim my praise.
Aislynn:Those are the verses that we named this after. And I hope they still ring true as you listen to these episodes. But I absolutely love Isaiah 43. It's such a beautiful picture of God's relationship with his people and with his creation. And so that's kind of why we chose that name and that's where it comes from.
Beatrice:Yeah. I love that passage and I love the reassurance. It's not that this is not a dark time. It's not that this isn't a dark moment, but there is life and restoration that is present in that space. And that's, I think, what we're really hoping that this podcast will be, is this is a dark reality and action is hard.
Beatrice:And we recognize the reality that Christians in The US have been very behind when it comes to acting in climate related issues. If you look at the voting blocs, we've always been put on the bottom when it comes to action. And so there's kind of this stigma around Christians don't care about this issue. And I think it is important for us to be honest about that and recognize that. But we also, as Christians in this field, believe strongly that Christians have something special to bring and that's hope.
Beatrice:And the knowledge that the world is broken, not just because of greedy or selfish decisions, but because of the fall of the planet, and because of sin. And at the same time, we get a look towards the grace that Jesus brings. And so we really see faith and hope as such an important part of this story and a catalyst for action. What would you say, Islan, are some of your dreams or vision of what this podcast on the whole will be?
Aislynn:Yeah, absolutely. I think the main reason I would say this podcast has been such a blessing to me is it's provided a space for me to process my experience both as a Christian and also as someone who is called to climate action and to environmental justice work. I think those two identities can sometimes come packaged separately, you know. I've given talks at my college that are very secular and they don't really focus on my faith. And I've given talks to my church where I can really talk about how faith relates to climate action.
Aislynn:So sometimes it's sort of this separation of identities in a way. And so what I'm really excited to do in this podcast is talk both about the actual reality of climate change in the world and what science says about how climate is changing and how that impacts our neighbors and especially our neighbors that are already vulnerable and already in places where they're seeing drastic impacts of climate change. And I'm also really excited to explore climate change through the lens of what Christians have to offer because I totally agree with you, B. I feel that there's something unique that we have and there's something special about this hope that we have in Jesus that allows us to really carry that hope into places that are really dark. And it can be a hope that is active and that takes a stand when there's injustice being perpetuated and that is also full of grace.
Aislynn:So I hope as we move forward that this podcast can be a space to talk about our faith and how we can bring that into spaces where climate action is happening or needs to be happening. And with that, I want to define a phrase that we will be using a lot, is creation care. If you're a Christian who has been involved in climate action in any way, this is probably a phrase you're familiar with, but I think a
Beatrice:lot of Christians have never heard about it. So, Bea, could you tell us a little bit about what is creation care? What does that mean when we say that? Yeah. Absolutely.
Beatrice:Sometimes when we're talking about stewardship and how to take care of the planet, it is not talked about kind of in the terms of our faith. And creation care, I love it as a term because it really specifically points to the fact that this is God's world. Creation care is about the idea that we've been called to be good stewards of God's creation, which we draw from Genesis and the creation narrative. God creates humans and he places them in a garden and calls us to care for it well. And alongside that relationship of stewardship is this idea that we don't own creation.
Beatrice:We've been put over it. We do have dominion, but it is as a steward, which means it is God's. So creation care is really all about we are called to care for the world God has created.
Aislynn:Yeah. Absolutely.
Beatrice:Would you add to that? I don't I hope I didn't miss anything there. No.
Aislynn:I think that's that's a perfect summary. Sometimes I have a complicated relationship with the term creation care because it can feel like a softened term sometimes. But really when we talk about creation care that encompasses climate action and environmental justice and some of those other words that we hear in the secular climate world. And so as we're talking about our faith and how that relates to climate action, I'm wondering, Bea, if you can share a little bit about how your faith motivates you to be involved in this climate space.
Beatrice:Yeah, absolutely. I've been involved in what I would consider creation care work for a lot of my life. And I would really point to the way my parents raised me. They homeschooled us for the first few years. And we spent a lot of that time, you know, going on nature hikes and identifying plants.
Beatrice:And I think there's like one picture where we were all dressed up as birds. And that time in creation, my parents really used to help us understand who God was. So my lens for understanding God was really built around creation. Cause I would see his sustaining work in everything. If you see the handiwork of God in how trees grow and in the falling of leaves and autumn colors and in the birds and the grass and the ants, You know, if you all see that as the handiwork of God, you constantly live in awe of him.
Beatrice:And it's also a huge comfort because the scripture talks about this a lot. But if God is taking care of the birds and if God is clothing the flowers, how much more is he gonna take care of his daughter? And so I really lived in that relationship with creation as God's handiwork. So I think that was the broad perspective I came to these issues with. But then later I started volunteering at a zoo and I started getting introduced to some of these more specific issues, things like deforestation, climate change, the wildlife trade, and kind of became educated and also began having opportunities to talk about them with people.
Beatrice:And for me, because I so believed that this was the handy work of God, those issues were hugely upsetting. If you look at elephants and are like, wow, God made that creature and it's so cool. You're really upset when something happens to it. And so I think that was part of it. But then also as I got older, I realized that creation care issues or environmental issues are not relegated to the environment.
Beatrice:We as humans live here and we also rely on the planet. I was living in Cleveland. That's still where I would consider home in many ways. And we deal with a lot of environmental justice issues, things like lead pollution, air pollution. We live on a great lake.
Beatrice:Sometimes our water gets shut down because of water pollution and that cause algae blooms and they can stop They have to stop drawing water from the lake. And those are really human issues that harm people. And then as I started to learn about climate change, I realized this isn't just about us poorly stewarding God's creation and destroying these beautiful witnesses of his work. But this is also about our biblical neighbors who we've been called to serve and love. This is about the poor and the vulnerable and the strangers that we've been told should be treated like Jesus.
Beatrice:And that was a huge calling in my life. So I think those are kind of the two ways that I've been formed by my faith to care about these issues. And as I look forward, that continues to shape my perspective on it. But yeah, how about you? I would love to hear some of your story on that.
Aislynn:I love that. I relate to a lot of what you were saying. Similar to you, I was raised in a Christian home, and so my faith was always a part of my life, and God has always been important to me. And I really just feel, especially now looking back, that He has always spoken to me and had His hand on me. And I can't explain why, but I'm so grateful for it.
Aislynn:So I think God has always influenced my perspective on things. My creation care journey began with my love of animals or as my mom calls it, my love of creatures. I grew up watching David Attenborough's documentaries. I know you did too, Bee. And I just fell in love with particularly the animals and the ecosystems of Africa.
Aislynn:I love elephants. I was enthralled by God's creation in that way. And that naturally led to of course an appreciation for nature itself and the beautiful ecosystems I was surrounded by in Oregon, the rivers and the mountains. It's so beautiful and so I encountered God in nature and I still do. It's just one of those places where I can see God's heart in a way that I don't anywhere else and it's so special.
Aislynn:That love for God's creation and His creatures led me to learning more about climate change. And of course, I was not only outraged but deeply anxious and afraid by all of the things I was learning about climate change. And then I learned about the justice side of climate change or rather the injustices that are perpetuated and exacerbated by climate change. And I realized that climate change is not, like you said, just an environmental issue. It is fundamentally a human issue and an issue of loving our neighbors.
Aislynn:And we have not done that well, in The US. So I honestly I think God has just always put that passion on my heart for how do we steward God's world in such a way that the planet flourishes and also our neighbors flourish and it brings justice to people. That became very important to me and I really have never changed course. I guess I've been pretty singularly focused since I was about three and It's never really wavered from there, but that's not, I do feel like this topic is such a living thing in that I feel like I learn more about it virtually every day and even in my studies, like I'm always learning new things about climate change and how it affects people and how it affects the planet and new solutions and what we can do about it. And it's both very scary but also really exciting and I do think that this field is an emerging one and certainly one that is not gonna go away anytime soon.
Aislynn:I'm really excited to see where God takes me in this.
Beatrice:Yeah, me too. I'm so excited to see what He does with you.
Aislynn:Oh, man. And it's been such a blessing to meet you on this journey as well. The COP 29 , that conference that we met at, was the first time I had ever been in a community of Christians who cared about climate change. That's not to say that there aren't Christians out there who care about it, but I had just never met any. And so it was such a powerful experience for that reason, too.
Aislynn:And this is, again, reiterating what we've already said, but I think that's what really motivated us to start this podcast as well, how can we live out our identity as Christians and stewards of God's Earth? And how can we just create a space for other Christians to engage with this issue and talk about it? So I'm really excited for us to do that.
Beatrice:Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree with that. We see this need for Christian community. Catherine Hayhoe, who's a very famous communicator on climate issues and she's a climate scientist. She talks a lot about how one of the most important things we can do about climate change is talk about it.
Beatrice:Because so often there are more people who care about it than we realize. We're just not talking about it. And it's really hard to do anything if you're alone. You know, we're meant to be a body in a community and people of community. Our hope with this podcast is that we'll help to start some of those conversations and to build that community, so that we have Christians who see each other and say, I care about this too.
Beatrice:I see God's handiwork in this too, and I want to do something too. Can we do it together? You know?
Aislynn:Yeah. On the topic of talking about this, I'm going
Aislynn:to ask you another question, Bea. And I think this question is really great because for our listeners, it's also one that I hope you reflect on and this is maybe a way for you to start your own conversation about climate change. So I'm wondering, Bea, if there's a particular place or person or experience that has inspired you most on your creation care journey or has allowed you to see God as creator in a different way? Oh, such a good question. I would say number one, my family.
Beatrice:I am the second oldest of seven. My youngest brother just turned seven. Growing up with people younger than you all the time and realizing that the things you create affect them. And when you're little, it's things like, if I break the rules, the rules get stricter for my little siblings. Funny how that works.
Beatrice:But when you grow up and you leave the house and you get a greater perspective, you think about, I leave the world behind to my little siblings. And I see the ways they are exposed to the fear. They love their nature documentaries and they see the destruction that is happening. You know, we're not like, you should be afraid because climate change is happening. But they are exposed to what's happening because it's all around them.
Beatrice:And it really sets me on fire to do everything I can to make sure that they step into a better world. Even if I can only do a little bit, I feel very strong responsibility to live well in this world for their sake. So I would say that has been a huge motivator. Being at that COP was a huge motivator because I was hearing the stories of so many people around the world and the things they were suffering and caring. And as a Christian, we are called to love our neighbors as ourselves.
Beatrice:And that was something my parents, I think, did a really good job of ingraining in me as a kid and something that has always been so important to me. My parents have kind of laughed cause I always had a very keen sense of justice and that people need to be taken care of well. And hearing their stories and the ways so much is out of their power and control was so heartbreaking. And I walked away from that experience knowing that I am called to be in this space and to do this work because it's God's work. It's God's calling.
Beatrice:I'm afraid I'm answering this several different ways. But the third place I would say I think of is a place and that's the prairie. Dort University, which is where I go, has a restored prairie. It's only about 20 acres in size. It's been the product of a lot of work by many people.
Beatrice:But I've had the privilege of helping to be on the management staff for it. Prairies are beautiful, diverse spaces and they require a lot of work. We're constantly having to burn the prairie to keep trees from growing. I'm constantly out there with my trimmers, taking out invasive species, taking out little trees that decide to make their home there. It's a lot of work.
Beatrice:But I think the Prairie is this beautiful place that reminds us that this is not inactive work. Humans belong here and we're called to good work. I think sometimes the messaging that happens in the secular environmental world is humanity is messed up and you we no longer belong here. And we're only damaged.
Aislynn:It's kind of that idea of we need to remove ourselves instead of it's a partnership with creation.
Beatrice:Yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And being in the prairie and doing that work and realizing that if I left, that prairie would fall to ruin makes me realize that that is not the case.
Beatrice:We get to be part of the beautiful sustaining work of creation and seeing it flourish. That for me is also a huge motivator into I'm called into this work. Humanity is not a blight on the world. We are a beautiful gift and we've been given free will and and so we we can and we have messed up many times, but we have the power and the calling to do good things in this place. And God has entrusted us in that work.
Beatrice:So I would say those are my three callings. What about you? I'd be interested to hear yours.
Aislynn:I laughed when you were talking about your heart for justice because I'm picturing my parents listening to this episode and thinking that's why they're friends because I certainly share that. Yeah, that drive for justice and that conviction that justice must be done has certainly shaped a lot of the ways that I view this issue and act on it. It's hard to pick just one thing or one experience that has inspired me in this work. I would say being at Cape and Ray Bible School was a really special experience. And I remember one of the lecturers for a week was Dave Bookless from Arasha, which is a fantastic organization.
Aislynn:He was talking about creation care and that was the first time I had ever heard the phrase creation care. And prior to that, I just knew that I was really called to environmental work. I didn't want to be a scientist and I didn't really know what my place in that looked like. But I just knew that this is a place where I feel God is asking me to go and I feel that justice needs to be done in this place. And to be honest, at that point, I had little hope that there was a way to involve Christians in that world.
Aislynn:I kind of just thought I'm going to keep my faith separate from my environmental journey, and I'm just going to try to kind of figure out my way without needing to bring my faith into it too much. But I remember that week when they lectured about creation care and they were pulling out all these Bible verses that I had read before or I was currently reading and hearing them in light of can you see God's heart here for creation was incredible. And I just remember thinking God cares about this. God has an intention for how we treat his world. This isn't something that I need to justify.
Aislynn:This is something that God commands in the Bible. And so I think that was maybe one of the moments that really changed the trajectory of my life in the sense that I realized as a Christian, I am not only permitted in this space, I must be in this space. And it's a place where I can take my brothers and sisters in Christ by the hand and say, You're invited into this space too, and God wants us to make a difference in the environmental field and to demonstrate his heart for creation through the ways that we live. So that's maybe one moment in my creation care journey that I
Beatrice:would say was really impactful. That's awesome. That's such a good story. I think you told me that really early on, but I'd kind of forgotten that that was where you got connected to Creation Care. It's making me try and think to you, like, the first moment where I realized there was other Christians on board.
Beatrice:It was probably Katherine Hayhoe, not gonna lie.
Aislynn:What a great introduction.
Beatrice:What a great introduction. I know. Well, on that note, I think it would be good for us to talk about this first season, which we're releasing as one chunk instead of releasing as individual episodes. I think it would be good for us to talk about what are the hopes and goals that are specific to this season and then maybe talk about what those episodes are gonna be.
Aislynn:Yeah. So would you intro us on that? I would love to. Next week, we're gonna be talking about Scripture and what the Bible has to say about creation care and about how we steward the earth well. Bea and I, when we were writing our outline, it was hard to decide where to start, but we feel really good about starting with God's word.
Aislynn:I think mostly because B and I are so intrinsically motivated by our faith and we see God in this work, but also because it's we're imagining that a lot of our audience is going to be Christians. And so we hope that as we're going through some scriptures that might be familiar to you, that you will read it in a different light and realize God really does say something here about creation. I'd never thought of that before. So our hope is to kind of go through some of the key passages that have shaped the way that BNI see our role in this space and also to invite you to engage with the Bible in a different way than you might have done so before.
Beatrice:Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a great intro. As we look forward to these episodes, is there one in specific that you're looking forward to? And then maybe what is one that you're a little nervous about?
Aislynn:I'm really excited for the episode where we're going to talk about heart posture and how we emotionally experience and spiritually experience the issue of climate change because that's something that I started thinking about a lot when we were at the conference together in Azerbaijan and it's something that I'm currently wrestling with in my own life. So I'm really excited to get into that topic more for sure. I think the episode that I'm maybe most nervous for would be the episode where we talk about climate change and the actual causes of climate change. I don't know if nervous is the right word, but sometimes that topic can get kind of heavy and it can be sort of depressing. And so I think it's gonna be a delicate balance of weaving in that hope that we promised would be woven into every episode of this show.
Aislynn:But I guess, Bea, I
Beatrice:will ask you, what episode are you most nervous for or excited for? I'd say I'm very excited for a next episode where we're gonna talk about God's heart for creation. And again, like you were saying, it's really setting the basis of what we talk about. I'm also really nervous for that one because that's so close to, I think, both of our hearts. And so being faithful in that is scary because it's it's really, really important to us.
Beatrice:And so, being able to communicate it well feels really important. And I'd say a similar thing with the climate science one. This is what I study. But, at the same time, I'm not an expert. I do not have my PhD.
Beatrice:This might be a familiar experience, Aislynn, where it's easy to feel underqualified and scared to talk about the science. Even if you have it written down and you're, like, have everything, like, cited and you're, like, reading from a script, which we're not, we're not reading from a script. But we do research things though and try and make sure that we're providing good information. But it's intimidating to do that. It still feels insecure at times because I'm not an expert.
Beatrice:So I'd say those are ones that I'm both super excited about and nervous about. And I'm also excited to talk about the heart because I think that's a really great launching place and that'll be our fifth episode.
Aislynn:Absolutely. Well, we decided to do something a little fun in this first episode. Bea and I have both written a question for each other that we have not told the other person about beforehand. I'm actually scared. Bea I'm gonna make you go first.
Beatrice:I'm asking first?
Aislynn:You can ask first because I'm too Oh, I'm so excited.
Beatrice:I'm so excited. Aislynn, we've talked a little bit about people that inspire us or places that inspire us. And a big way that we can be inspired in people is by fictional characters and places. That is one of the beautiful things of fictional stories. Is there a fictional character that you feel like inspires you in this work?
Aislynn:That's such a good question. It's really hard to just pick one, to be honest, because I'm a nerd and so I get inspired by many, many fictional characters. But I'm going to choose one from Lord of the Rings because Bea and I are very huge Lord of the Rings nerds and we talk about it probably in every single conversation that we've ever had. I got to go with Treebeard. I feel like Treebeard is who I wish I could be in this movement sometimes.
Aislynn:Sometimes I just want to get some friends together and go storm somebody's evil lair and tear down the walls and demand justice and make things right. I don't think I'll ever have a Treebeard moment, but I feel like Treebeard kind of models Something inside of me that I usually have to keep on a pretty tight leash. I love you for it. Okay, Bea, your question is a little bit mean. I say that because have such a beautiful heart.
Aislynn:And so this is going to be hard for you to answer, which is why I wrote it. So we know that one day God will restore all things and creation will be renewed. So I want you to imagine that God came to you and said, Beatrice, I will allow you to choose one creature that I will completely wipe from existence. Like, it will not exist in the new Earth.
Aislynn:Which creature would you choose?
Aislynn:And you have to choose one.
Beatrice:You're evil.
Aislynn:I know. But my answer would be cats and you would hate me for that.
Beatrice:You would not.
Aislynn:I Would. I really would.
Beatrice:Okay. Wait.
Aislynn:It has to be an animal.
Beatrice:It's an animal, technically.
Aislynn:Oh, no. Oh, here we go. Here we go.
Beatrice:I would ask God to get rid of new world screw worms because they're evil. I'm pretty sure they were created by the fall.
Aislynn:I just can't believe you didn't use this opportunity to say like spiders or I like spiders. You really dodged the question so creatively, but you did answer it. So I'll count it.
Beatrice:I did. I'm pretty good. Well, that was fun. Thank you so much for joining us on this journey. We are so excited to have you and we hope that this first season will be blessing to you as we continue to work to discover what God's heart for creation is.
Aislynn:This podcast is for anyone who is curious about the intersection of faith and climate action. Whether you've studied climate change for years or you've heard the phrase and know nothing about it, we hope our experience as young Christians who are called to pursue environmental stewardship inspires you to learn, think, and grow in your own walk with God. We're so grateful you've decided to join us on our journey to rediscover God's heart for creation and be encouraged by the remarkable stewardship efforts already underway across the world. We invite you to engage with us further on our Instagram at rivers in the desert underscore podcast or reach out by email riversinthedesertpodcast@gmail.com. Tune in
Beatrice:for episode two where we will explore what the bible has to say about creation and our place within it. Until next time. You are all very dear to God.