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Hosted by a Toronto-based sommelier Tasting Notes Toronto explores the people shaping the city’s food and wine culture—from Michelin-starred chefs and master sommeliers to restaurant operators and winemakers. Each episode goes behind the scenes of hospitality careers, restaurant culture, and the decisions that shape what we eat and drink in Toronto today.
You opened a bar down a random back alley behind a cider factory, barely promoted it, and it's packed every single night. Yeah. Yeah. How did that happen?
Matt Palynchuk:It's such a weird set of circumstances that came about. I'm the wine director over at Union Restaurant, and the owner of Union, Theo Paul, comes up to me and is, I've got this space that's over in the back alley there behind Cote D'Ivoire. It's where Duncan, the bar manager at the time at Union, makes the cider, High Hope Cider. And he's like, you want to come check it out? I'm like, sure.
Matt Palynchuk:I go to check out the space. It's beautiful. It was probably 70 ish percent done when I went to go check it out in January. It looks like the inside of a barrel. It's also super chaotic in there.
Matt Palynchuk:It's where Cote D'Ivoire is storing some winter tires and a patio things. But you just get the idea of the space and he's, do you think we could do something with it? Sure. Let's serve some wine. Let's have a good time with it.
Matt Palynchuk:He's okay. So that was, like, January, probably in March. I was in Montreal with my partner, and I get a call from Teo and he's, yeah, let's try to do this. Let's try to open May, June. It was March.
Matt Palynchuk:And I'm like, yeah. Sure. Let's do it. And Teo is very much like this, where he gets an idea and let's just do it. We'll figure it out.
Matt Palynchuk:Details are details, but let's just set this goal and let's make it happen. I'm like, sure. So we're there. And we're like, you know what? Since we're here, I've lived in Montreal for a decade.
Matt Palynchuk:We're going to like all of our favorites, flea markets and things like this. We're like, that could be cool in the space. And I visited it once, I think at this point, maybe twice. I'd be like, yeah, that'd be a nice mirror to throw up. And that would be a nice thing to put in there.
Matt Palynchuk:Everything starts coming together by the July. A sink gets installed the day that we're doing our soft open. And there you have it. We technically operate as an event space in which we do a wine bar pop up quite frequently on many Thursday, Friday, Saturdays, but it is nevertheless a pop up in an event space. And it's catered by Union, so you can license carries over there.
Matt Palynchuk:The food is supplied by Union, the wine is supplied by Union. And I'm the wine director at union, and so it falls hand in hand. But started with me inviting forty, fifty friends from food and beverage and also just friends not from that and just getting people to spread it a little bit word-of-mouth. I thought it was gonna be this little tiny, we would have 10 to 15 people in there. We would get to dedicate some space to people from Cote D'Ivoire waiting on the wait list to come back there, have some wine, have a slice of cheese, go back for their reservation.
Matt Palynchuk:And quite soon after, we started to throw these events explode.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Do you think the fact that it is so hidden and out of the way is part of the appeal?
Matt Palynchuk:Yeah. I think so for sure. Toronto has always loved a hidden thing. Back in Montreal, and I'd come to visit Toronto, I would go back to Montreal making fun of Toronto being like, every bar is in another thing. You have to knock on this door.
Matt Palynchuk:You've gotta go through a thing to get to it. But it all just seemed so cheesy.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I was loving cocktail culture and living in New York Yeah. In the February. And, yeah, PDT, you had to go through a phone booth and a hotdog stand. That was new, and so it was cool. Yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But also at Raton Laveur, you didn't pretend to put it off a back alley in a cider factory. It just is.
Matt Palynchuk:The space couldn't be otherwise. It's not like we just invented a cidery to be there. And for several months, and maybe even now, I still have mixed feelings about walking through a cidery to get into the bar.
Alex Abbott Boyd:So much of our life now is about convenience and ease of use and accessibility. Do you think that's also part of the appeal for people that this is an inconvenient space to get to?
Matt Palynchuk:Maybe. I think there's an aspect of that where people want to be I think there's a level of, and I don't want say discomfort, but to be pushed in a way that isn't so convenient, something to contrast it with for me is a huge trend, is the hotel lobby bar, which is by design supposed to be this beautiful, comfortable space where anybody would wanna be able to sit down and have a drink and relax and not have to think about things, whatever. And then you have our space, which is packed. His, 18 seats, all bars, backless bar stools, you are sitting right next to and sometimes sharing a table with another group. We have this barrel table, former Cote D'Ivoire one.
Matt Palynchuk:And this place is, again, like an assembly of of of so many bits and bobs and parts from everywhere. But we have this barrel table and it's in the middle of the room, and we'll sometimes just see two two tops, they just gotta be there together. Some like, sometimes they mingle and interact and have a great kind of communal time. Yeah. Sometimes they don't have to look at each other.
Matt Palynchuk:I don't care. I love spaces like that. Yeah. The kind of dream wine bar I've always wanted to have is something that I experienced in Dublin, where my partner and I were living in Dublin for two and a half months. And it's a place called Frank's.
Matt Palynchuk:And it used to be like a butchery, and it still maintains the awning from the original butchery that it was, like, from year years ago. And it is one long wide table that runs down the middle of the room. It's a very small space. And the table is wide enough so that if you are across from another person, you would have no reason to talk to them. But also wide narrow enough that if your friend is across, you're interacting.
Matt Palynchuk:And the basically, the only places to sit with some very few exceptions is on this long communal table that kind of forces interaction in some kind of way, gets people closer together, and for better or for worse. And the service is the husband cooking and assembling wonderful charcuterie plates and beautifully assembled plates. And the wife running the entire wine program. One of the best sommeliers I've met. So passionate, so interesting, amazing curation.
Matt Palynchuk:But all that aside, which is a part of the space, is almost hosting you at the table. Yeah. And I love that idea. And this space is almost an inverted version of that, where the bar runs along the wall and everything. But you have to be smushed in sometimes and people meet each other.
Alex Abbott Boyd:You wanna make a friend, you can make a friend.
Matt Palynchuk:You can make a friend. And we
Alex Abbott Boyd:see it
Matt Palynchuk:all the time. We see it all the time. That's so beautiful. If there's one thing I love about this space is the way that it's there's this electricity that's exciting in there. Yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:There's no kind of dead space, dead air. It's there's people in the room and people are talking to each other in the room and people are having a good time. And it's not a space that's good for people that wanna sit there, be alone, and and
Alex Abbott Boyd:Just have a one on one day quietly.
Matt Palynchuk:Yeah. Yeah. It's a day you know, it's barely possible.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But that's great. Right? So much of modern life is we're so connected but feeling alienated. Yeah. And so a space that wine itself is such a great solution to that problem.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Exactly. You combine wine with architecture that encourages a solution to that problem.
Matt Palynchuk:Yeah. Yeah. People often cite that problem that people aren't interacting enough and or, you know, they're social in a purely digital sense and then they go into the actual physical social world and not able to do much. But I think there's a lot to say about small space. I think small spaces are just really good at doing that.
Matt Palynchuk:That's just, I think, almost a fact about space and persons being in them, as opposed to big, large spaces where people can be very spread out. And that's why I've never pictured myself in a space like that. Because I've just always loved the small, cozy, comfy, if uncomfortable place because you find other ways, you adapt. People complain about the feeling of a chair or something like this. And I feel like that's the kind of thing you focus on when you're bored.
Matt Palynchuk:Or, or, you know, there's not enough else happening that you're like, oh, this chair. I think for the most part, if somebody comes back to me and they're like, oh, I went to that place and but the chairs are a little uncomfortable. I'm like You missed the point. Yeah. It's like, how was the food?
Matt Palynchuk:How was the wine? How was the company? Like, how was the music?
Alex Abbott Boyd:If you're enjoying the episode, I have a quick ask. Ratings and reviews actually matter a lot more than most people think. It's how the show grows and how I can keep getting great guests like this. You can do it right now while you're listening. Leaving a rating takes about ten seconds, and I'd really appreciate it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:And if you already have, thank you so much. Alright. Back to the show. Do you think bars can have a culture? I don't just mean among the staff.
Alex Abbott Boyd:If someone is coming back to Raton Laveur because they know it's a place where you can just strike up a conversation, it's almost like they're loud there. To go back to the old school hidden cocktail bars in New York, a lot of them would have these strict rules on the wall. Like, should not approach women and all, like, all this stuff, which was I think there were reasons for that.
Matt Palynchuk:But it
Alex Abbott Boyd:did not encourage that kind of same community There's
Matt Palynchuk:nothing that makes me feel more uncomfortable than enforcing a rule with Raton. From the jump, we're talking about a place that barely had the rules that we have are like, there is no wait list. There is no reservations. There's no ice. There's no cocktails.
Matt Palynchuk:There's no garnishes. There's no way to do that kind of thing. Like when I go to a cafe and they're like, no screens or no laptops or no wifi. I'm like, I get it, but it, that's a thing. It's a great example.
Matt Palynchuk:Not my example, but your question is, I think, really fun for this. Because I think that is trying to force a culture of a place where it's, if people didn't feel the need to bring out a laptop, they would. But you're in a dead cafe. Mhmm. And I get it.
Matt Palynchuk:I'm forcing forcing or whatever about, like, no cocktails. Sure. But that's just something that's a necessary restriction there because where would I put a well? I have where am I gonna put ice? Where am I gonna put all of these things?
Matt Palynchuk:It's an 18 seater tiny little space, and something's gotta give. And if something's gotta give, it's my terrible ability to make content. And and if that forces anything, which I get, but it's also like, you're in a space that I'm also curating in a way, and the whole team is curating. And I think there's a way to respect that too. Yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:The example I always give, I don't go to Civiliberties and order a wine. I don't go to Bellwoods Brewery and get a cocktail. What do they do? I want to do the thing that they do. I don't go it just it's bizarre to me.
Matt Palynchuk:And I go to a place and respect what they're trying to, like, I think, form their craft around and what they're specializing in. And, and I, and not that everybody should be like, a lot of people don't want to drink beer. I don't, I don't drink a ton of cocktails and things like that. But I'm nevertheless curious about what's the best thing you do. Yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:That's what I want. Why would I want something that is going to be a second thought? And that's just a reality. Yeah. Whatever wines, if I can't even remember if Civil has some wines by the glass, but whatever wines they have by the glass, there's no way it it's backed with the same intention Oh.
Matt Palynchuk:Of 100%. Of hiring the best bartenders in the city to make you a cocktail that's so specific for you. And then to be like, oh, and here's $20 chianti that they can also pour you. And again, I actually don't know if they have wine. Yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:And I love that fact that I actually don't know that. Because I'm like because I'm doing what I think I should be doing in that space.
Alex Abbott Boyd:A 100%. On that topic, we kind of just dove right headfirst into it. Could you maybe just share what is Raton Laveur? What do you do there? What is it all about?
Matt Palynchuk:As I previously mentioned, Raton Laveur is a, is an event space that Union has where they host events. And I am one of the people that hosts events there, not in my capacity as the wine director at Union, but as my in my capacity as a third party who wants to host kind of wine bar pop ups there. And Just getting the legal stuff out of Exactly. That's like the technicality that we really have to be careful with. That's just the nature of the place.
Matt Palynchuk:Like, when people call it a wine bar, it's not an accurate description of what it is, especially from the state's point of view. Whether that's the city of Toronto, Ontario, or whatever. So that's the first thing. I So I host these events. I choose all the wine, choose the cheeses and the charcuterie and, I change the wine list every single week.
Matt Palynchuk:A handful of things might change here and there, not change here and there, but you can always rely on there being sparkling white, sparkling red, a bunch of white, oranges, roses, reds, and, and every single week is a different every single week that we're doing these events is a different event and theme. Last weekend was, oh, international Baga weekend. So we we celebrated the great Baga. And so I'll pick grapes. I'll pick regions.
Matt Palynchuk:I'll pick wine styles. I'll pick even just entire countries, soil types, and that'll be a theme for a weekend of these special wines that'll be on offer as well.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What are besides Bago, what are some of the other recent ones that
Matt Palynchuk:you've The wines of Tenerife. So we did an event with the Canary Counter. Celia, who was on the podcast, one of my favorite people. She, she came by with her maps, her tactile maps. She loves her maps.
Matt Palynchuk:And we we were pouring nothing but the wine for a whole one whole night. The entire list was sparkling through to red, as I just described, but all from the island of Tenerife. And that was super fun. And then that just carried over into the weekend as specials. And then I've done just a whole theme around volcanic whites or reds.
Matt Palynchuk:So we did some Etna wines, some volcanic soils over in El Fey in the Loire Valley we did. And then obviously Tenerife. I've done just an aligote, we call it aligote weekend, but ali is spelt like alleyway. And, and so I love aligote. It's one my favourite grapes and people
Alex Abbott Boyd:It's the only affordable thing in Burgundy.
Matt Palynchuk:There's that. But I'm just so passionate about the grape. And I think there's so many beautiful expressions of it. I did the Giro d'Italia where we did grapes from the furthest north to the furthest South and even into Pantelleria. So we've done just weird themes like that.
Matt Palynchuk:I'll pick a grape, a region, a style. Sometimes it was just natty Italian winemakers. So just broad theme, as broad as it can get too. But there's always a theme. But, yeah, I curate the space and we also just do we do wonderful things with local wineries.
Matt Palynchuk:We've done a Paradise Grapevine takeover, Last House from Prince Edward County is a winery I'm super passionate about. And then some of my friends with with import companies or wine agencies will do takeovers as well. Sometimes dedicated to one single winemaker or winery, like we did on Eloise Ligator takeover. We actually this coming Wednesday, I don't know when this is coming out, but very soon we're doing a Sylvain Petain night where it's gonna be I think it's twelve different skews of Sylvain Petain the entire night.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Does someone need to know much about wine to have a good time? We're talking about all these different very specific things that I have certain go tos and I don't know too much beyond that. Do I need to know a lot or can I just roll up and
Matt Palynchuk:The one thing I've always liked and it's I think it's something I learned from being at archive for now four and a half years is I'd like to have a space where people can the nerds can come out and enjoy this rare thing or this interesting line that maybe not a lot of people might appreciate or know about or whatever? But also a space where people can come and feel comfortable, and they're there to learn. They could be just there to not necessarily learn more. It's not an education hour or an educational experience every single time. But it's at least a a place where they know they can get a glass of wine that they're gonna enjoy.
Matt Palynchuk:And I just feel so dedicate. Like, I think any good wine professional, I think probably every wine professional feels this way where you just wanna make sure you're getting the right thing in that person's glass that they're gonna really enjoy. Right? Yeah. And if it means me coming over with six bottles in my hand and a single glass and be like, what about that?
Matt Palynchuk:What about that? What about that? What about that? Done. Yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:I wanna make sure that person feels that they've spent that $15 to 15 to whatever, $20 on a glass that they're enjoying. You could reference all the, the HomeSense signs in the world about life's too short to drink cheap wine or bad wine or whatever. But there's truth to it. And I, there wasn't, I've, I had to say this the other week to somebody, and I hope it doesn't sound too cheesy or something, but nothing would make me feel worse as somebody whose job it is to get people wine, to get wine in a glass, for somebody to feel like I feel like I wasted $15 on it.
Alex Abbott Boyd:So should someone ever feel bad if they say, Hey, can I just get a little taste before I commit? In Would encourage them to do that?
Matt Palynchuk:I would really much encourage it. Several times people will be like, I'm just gonna I'll have a glass of that. And I come over and I I give them a pour first. Yeah. And then they're like, Okay, never mind.
Matt Palynchuk:This is not your typical Malbec. It's like this. And they're like, Yeah, but I love Malbec. And I'm like, okay. I don't love that Malbec.
Matt Palynchuk:I'm always careful to be like, this is not your typical thing like this. If you if what you want is rich, opulent styles of wine with great texture and everything, this actually won't be that. It's actually a very different expression. Instead, you might actually like this, and they taste something like, oh, that's actually exact.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Think some people are shy. I was in a restaurant last weekend and I asked just to try this wine. I didn't like it. And then I got something so much better. I was just so glad that I just spoke up.
Matt Palynchuk:And I don't know how every place runs. I know some places run on super tight pore sizes and they need to get their six glasses, their six four ounce pours out of every single bottle and there's no room for little tastes like that. I And that's just the way that they run. I do think that will there's no way it doesn't burn. And I get where little taste can be super inconvenient.
Matt Palynchuk:That could be two trips. If you're actually corvening the wine somewhere else, or if you can't pull that bottle from the back in order to pour it for somebody, it's extra trips out. It's super inconvenient. Maybe it's a whole other glass that you have to get out too. But that's I I don't know.
Matt Palynchuk:For me, that's that that's the bullet you bite for hospitality is that you get somebody what they want.
Alex Abbott Boyd:That's yeah. That is hospitality.
Matt Palynchuk:And I and I and that's the convenient thing about wine. It's in the bottle. It is what it is. But if you're at a place, if you come to Union and you're like, can I just get a chicken Caesar salad? And then there's obvious there's nothing like that on the like, no.
Matt Palynchuk:And and obviously, there's a toxic hospitality extreme where you could be like, sure, we'll make it happen. We'll find a way. Then we whisking Worcestershire and oil and egg together to get a sauce. That's obviously an extreme. I think where it's wine, it's something that brings so much joy.
Matt Palynchuk:Could make a night, break a night, dishes do this too. But it's just such a simple thing to give a little, not even a one ounce and just be like, is this it?
Alex Abbott Boyd:No. Was there a moment or a night when you knew that this new space, Raton Laveur, was really working?
Matt Palynchuk:That's a very good question. Because we did we did our first weekend in, like, mid July. And there I think there was this weekend in August where it was so many friends in the room. It was, we had like grape witches there and we had like other som friends there. And I had some of my like personal non industry friends there and everybody was chatting.
Matt Palynchuk:Everybody was like so lively and everything. And I remember taking like one picture of the room. And I remember just seeing like a certain electricity in the room with, with friends and colleagues enjoying themselves. And that's what you want. And when you get that from peers too, and your peers coming up to you being like, this is so much fun.
Matt Palynchuk:I'm like, great. It's not here to give you the finest dishes in the world, and it's not here to pour you the, what a lot of people make, the greatest wines. It's not here to do that. It's here to get you get a glass of wine in your hand and make sure you have a good time. And and yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:What are some of the craziest stories that you have? Or craziest things that either the craziest things that are that have happened or just things that you've learned about running a bar that you just did not see coming?
Matt Palynchuk:So social media stuff has done things to the bar for sure. And I would say two months ago, a four top comes in and they're like, oh my god, would be amazing. And they are decked out. They are like very dressed up in not like any space I've ever worked in. I've never had to like I very rarely ever had to serve people that were like this fancy looking.
Matt Palynchuk:Big fur jackets and lots of jewelry and everything. Was like, oh, okay. And so we're like, yeah, actually, this thing just opened up. I feel like that's so great. And sit sit them down, waters, menus, sit down.
Matt Palynchuk:One of them runs into the washroom, comes back out. They take some photos with the menu and in the space, and they leave right away. And then I didn't have another group have to come in for a little bit. And this is a small 18 seater place where every seat can kinda count. Some nights, it could it absolutely could count.
Matt Palynchuk:It could make or break us losing money or making money. Before Topic that too, that I turned away somebody that I think and I could have maybe run down the alleyway and done that kind of thing, you just happened to walk in at the right time. And now you're not here. Now there's no there's four seats there that it's not generating anything. And I think more importantly to me is that was four seats where four people could have enjoyed their night.
Matt Palynchuk:Yeah. And came here for that reason to have some wine and enjoy themselves and talk with friends. And now they don't get that opportunity, and you came in here and took your photos and laughed.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Here's the question. Did you then see a video on social media where those people were pretending that they had an amazing experience?
Matt Palynchuk:No, I've never checked that kind of stuff. And because the Instagram's still private, I don't even know if people tag us and if they're private. I don't think there's a lot of things I would think that we don't we can't see or don't see or if people don't tag us and this kind of thing. We also don't have a Google Maps location strictly. And there's probably something around that too.
Matt Palynchuk:Like the way that you can tag like Yeah. Archive on Instagram as a geo like a geographical point or something. No, didn't see it, but and I didn't, again, it's not something that weighs on me. I just found that I was, that was like a moment where myself and the team looked at that and we're like, Oh. Yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:It was definitely a moment where we're just like, Oh, okay, they were here at the very least for some kind of photoshoot of sorts. And they laugh. And yeah, that's what we want to have. The intention of any space like that is for people to be there and enjoy the What we were talking about rest before. Your
Alex Abbott Boyd:Connect with other people. Connect with wine. Yeah. Have a good time.
Matt Palynchuk:It's clearly a small intimate space that that people are all buzzing and having a good time with and like photoshoot leave, is to like almost have blinders on and ignore everything around you and ignore the concept of a, of a bar as a space to enjoy.
Alex Abbott Boyd:On that point, how much do you think social media has played a role in the success of your bar? Because I have a very biased Instagram feed because it's a lot of the Toronto wine community. Sure. But it seems like everyone's there every weekend.
Matt Palynchuk:Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Right? It's at least a or double edged thing, but could be more edges to it.
Matt Palynchuk:Like we have a private Instagram. You have to be like, you have to accept your request to follow us. So that means that any posts that we make are only going to the people who already follow us. There's no attempt from our perspective to get more followers by making fun posts and whatever. It's like purely informative.
Matt Palynchuk:And it's beautiful. My partner does all the social media and everything looks great and everything's super fun and playful. And we play with obviously the raccoon idea a lot. And so arguably there's probably like an internal success, like people follow it and they get attracted to that, like, whatever. There's the success thing there.
Matt Palynchuk:It started with me telling some friends to let other friends and colleagues and the kinds of people that would enjoy a space like this to come by, the understanding that there's no cocktails and no this and no that. But very, not, I don't know, very soon. The thing's been going on for ten months or so. But there was a first kind of Instagram or TikTok that happened. I think that was like January.
Matt Palynchuk:And that we saw a sharp climb in January, February, which should have been arguably pretty slow months. You're dredging through the snow of a back alleyway in order to into this, maybe this weird spot if you find. But we definitely saw an uptick in times where we maybe shouldn't have seen an uptick in terms of people coming by. There's definitely been more of those posts happening and the place has just been getting busier and busier. And no matter where I work, always ask somebody if it was, if it's their first time that they're joining us.
Matt Palynchuk:I don't know them already. And the number of people that say this is my first time, saw it from TikTok is, I don't know. It's a majority of the room at any given point when we're open now. Would say that something happened recently with a TikTok, Instagram content creator who had never actually visited. Actually, there's this has happened a few times with us now, where the person in question doesn't visit.
Matt Palynchuk:They just heard about it. They take photos from the Instagram or from friends who posted from there or something like that. And they put us on blast essentially, and just be like, this new cool hidden place in Toronto, blah blah blah blah blah. And then it blows up. This happened around the Easter weekend.
Matt Palynchuk:And the following week, I'm wiping down the bar and it was 06:00, door opens, and there is a lineup down the alleyway. And I'm like, no. This is not what I want. The alleyway is a alleyway with residential backyards all right there. Homes right there.
Matt Palynchuk:And seeing a lineup down an alleyway just made me sweat instantly. I'm like, this is not good. We go outside to tell the lineup. Everybody just got in. This will be forty five minutes an hour.
Matt Palynchuk:No wait list. We're not taking names. We're not taking numbers. We're not going to call you. We're not going to text you.
Matt Palynchuk:They all just stay. It's like their mission because almost certainly because of the social media posts. It had so many likes, shares, whatever. And then we saw a post a few days later that was like, we waited an hour and a half to get it. And I'm like, you shouldn't do that.
Matt Palynchuk:I'm not here to make people feel bad for doing these kinds of things. But I come from a philosophy where it's no, I don't wait. I don't want to wait in a lie for anything. And not in a way that's I don't, I'm too good to wait. It's that almost nothing is good enough to wait.
Matt Palynchuk:It's a glass of wine. And I get it. There's the space. There's the this. There's the vibe.
Matt Palynchuk:There's this the review from the content creator was honestly vibes about the space. Maybe somebody wanted to see that thrilling review of honestly vibes for a space they've never actually been in. The use of the word honestly is questionable when you've never been to the space.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But Someone sat in that chair a few weeks ago and said that he could open his phone, talk into it about a bunch of spots that he'd never been to on TikTok and that it would pop. Yeah. He was right.
Matt Palynchuk:It's it's, of course, true. It wasn't so much a review as much as it was, like, relaying here's a new hidden hotspot in Toronto. And in that way, it's not dishonest. There's things, those things could apply to us. Those terms could apply to us.
Matt Palynchuk:But it would have been really nice for that person to feel a sense of responsibility to talk to us, like maybe reach out and be like, Oh yeah, your Instagram's private. You're not on Google. These aren't things to do that are cutesy for us. They're a way to control the space and make sure that we have a, we have some sense of an ability to control too many people coming in and hanging out in the alleyway, annoying my neighbors, getting me in trouble for all sorts of things. It's like that we don't wanna have.
Matt Palynchuk:We're not this isn't a weird gimmick. It's it's a way for us to to be able to survive, first of all. Get us getting too blown up is a way that our pop ups could stop.
Alex Abbott Boyd:On the topic of lines down the alley Yeah. And looking both across your experience at Raton Laveur, Union, Archive Wine Bar, what do you think wine professionals can do just to make wine more accessible and interesting to people? You've clearly cracked the code a little bit if you've got a line down the alley.
Matt Palynchuk:Sure. It's a very good question. I think it's a it's if anybody has an answer to that, write about it and let us all know.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I I often wonder if it's literally as simple as if wine lists were just written a bit more compellingly.
Matt Palynchuk:I know. I know. But it is an actual complex issue of so many possible variables and things that could intersect. Right? There are just straight up physical space and aesthetic considerations and spatial considerations on a menu.
Matt Palynchuk:Right? Let's say you have 20 wines by the glass. I think Josh at Archive does a really good job of squeezing in these tasting notes to just help guide people in at least some way, so that not every single person working at Archive is describing all 20 wines in a row. There's something to there's something to give And archive is, I think, the best example of a wine bar in the city about accessibility and getting people into wine. I don't think any place comes close.
Matt Palynchuk:Whether it's the flights where people can taste things side by side and get a sense of comparing and contrasting flavours and aromas, think is super important to have people learn about wine or like how to learn more about wine. Having little notes here and there, and then having a staff that everybody knows a lot about wine. These are all important things. I think there's a warmth and hospitality aspect to it too, of like how you answer questions about wine. There's been places where I overhear somebody just be like, no, that's not right.
Matt Palynchuk:Or they'll just tell a guess that they are like wrong about something. And I don't know whether it's my background. I have a background in teaching. And I look at just telling a student they're just wrong about this. Bizarre.
Matt Palynchuk:It'd be like, I see how you got there. I see the work, and I see how you got from point a to point b here. I'll just show you that there are alternatives here. All raisins are sweet, or all chardonnays are buttery, or whatever. Name it.
Matt Palynchuk:Right? All Ontario wine is like thin and tart red wine that's not good. These kinds of misconceptions. I would never be like, no, it's not like that. I'd be like, I see why you think that.
Matt Palynchuk:I especially see why they think that about Ontario wines if you've only been to the wine rack to get a bottle of $10 Pinot Noir or whatever, or a red blend, why you would think that. But here, I'd like, here's some reasons why that's not the case. And I would love to show you an example of what of how this of a dry Riesling, or of a non buttery Chardonnay, or of Ontario wines that are international wines, punch with the best of them. And so even just that, I think, for me it's the it can be so many tone things. It just takes experience.
Matt Palynchuk:I don't think I'm, I'm not perfect at it, but it definitely takes a certain kind of like sensitivity and precision when you're approaching a table to just get a gauge of whether you should be nerding out, and whether you're going to explain carbonic maceration right now, and the difference between semi and fluorescent, something like that. Or whether we are talking These are generally the flavor profiles of these different wines, and this is how they kind of taste. Now, what do you like? Let me translate this for you. I think any wine professional will tell you it's a translation game.
Matt Palynchuk:Somebody says they like Pinot Grigio Sauvignon Blanc, you have neither on your list. Here's Pecorino or here's They're playing these games all the time. But I do think just the way that you approach somebody, and I think it's just a matter of just being cool and easy about wine. It's fermented grapes. Can you down?
Matt Palynchuk:Yeah. And to get people what they want, or give somebody something that they're intrigued about, or that's something that could push them in a different direction, for sure. You don't want to just give people exactly the same thing. It's not how they learn to taste new things and appreciate new things.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Besides snobby service, are there any wine trends that you're ready for them to be over?
Matt Palynchuk:I would say it's almost, I don't trend might, I might not be answering the question correctly here, but I do think this conception of Canadian, especially Ontario wines as being like bad wines or lower quality, the only reason they're going to find their way on a list is to support their friend that makes the wine or to have some sort of sense of locality, but without actually believing in the wine or being good for Ontario. I do think that a big thing for me is this Ontario wine phobia that is super frustrating because there's world class wines. They're not just good for Ontario. They are good for good. They are good wines that we should be respecting and that can hold their own on a list next to, and I'll say, they can taste they can be great like burgundy.
Matt Palynchuk:Last night, we had a winemaker in that archive or a winery representative who was talking about the greatest Cab Francs you ever had. It was a Rugard. And I'm like, like, I love the Reugerd wine, but I'm like, I think actually the one of the Cab Francs that probably just blew me away the most and that I think is a is can box with the best one is the Perlmoresaid Madeline. And he's, oh, really? What's that?
Matt Palynchuk:Josh goes down to the basement, pops a 2014 QA1, which is like a an Amphora aged cab franc. The guy Tasting's yeah. And he posted to it. It's it this is the best New World cab franc I've ever had. I'm like, yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:And then I'm like, for the New World thing, I'm like, could just say like it's one
Alex Abbott Boyd:of the
Matt Palynchuk:best Cap francs you've ever had, which is probably also true. But there is that, it's from Piedmont. This is gonna be the perception for sure. And he was just genuinely intrigued and excited to be trying Ontario wine. Even Sadie was at archive recently and when he was at Ontario was just genuine, like a curiosity and an excitement about trying new things.
Matt Palynchuk:And that's what I think is whenever somebody says, what's your favourite guest? I love curious guests They just wanna try anything. When somebody's, I'd love a flight. I'm like, is there anything I shouldn't put on the flight? Do you hate this?
Matt Palynchuk:Do you hate this? I give me weird. Give me classic. Give me everything. I just wanna try some new thing.
Matt Palynchuk:Melts my heart. I'm just like, yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Oh, not nothing makes me sadder than meeting someone who only drinks burger. Even if they think, oh, I drink that best. Like Yeah. I can talk about every vintage. I'm like, yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But there's so much more.
Matt Palynchuk:Oh, yeah. Yeah. I usually those kinds of people for me have terribly deprived palate. Yeah. Okay.
Matt Palynchuk:You can taste two grapes really well. That's so cool. And they can name everything about it. Wow. It what I really hope that you get to try that that ferment that, like, makes you go, wow.
Matt Palynchuk:And, like, that full mallow Riesling that makes you think, oh, wow. Not everything needs to taste Germanic
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah.
Matt Palynchuk:In Riesling. Yeah. I just I don't know. I just want people to try new things, open themselves up, and not look at a I've always been tempted to do those kinds of lists where it's you give very little info and just pour it for the person. They're like, I love this.
Matt Palynchuk:You're like, this is a Czech Gruner blend or this
Alex Abbott Boyd:is
Matt Palynchuk:a Ontario this or this is a Marquette of hybrid grapes especially too. Just shaking people from these preconceptions. But I think that's anyways, maybe that's the trend that I wanted to anti anti Ontario or the like the trend. The historic, like, grasp that, like, burgundy and Bordeaux and champagne has had on everybody. Let's shake that a little bit.
Matt Palynchuk:And, oh, we're going to Jura now. Cool. Because none of us can afford Burgundy anymore. You just went to a place that was slightly cheaper. Now that's going skyrocketing.
Matt Palynchuk:So we're gonna try Savoie. Oh, that's gonna skyrocket.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. Or just come to Victoria and drink some of the best Pinot and Chard ever from Australia.
Matt Palynchuk:Yeah. Yeah. When you said Victoria, was like, oh, are you talking about Avril Creek over in Vancouver Island? Which is true too. Awesome wines there.
Matt Palynchuk:I don't It's just shaking people. Exactly. And you know, with Australian importing, like it's that problem too. But I do think it's a lot of people can't reference those good Pinots from By Far without being like, it's so big on it. You would think this is Vole Neck.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Who
Matt Palynchuk:cares? Actually hope it's not like Vole Neck. I hope it's its own thing. Can we calm down? Like, it doesn't have to be like this.
Matt Palynchuk:And sometimes as a wine professional, you do have to communicate that way. To sell to that hardened burgundy heart, a great Ontario Pinot or Chardonnay, you would have to be like, it's very Meursault y. You're gonna love it. And it's not something I would, it's, I don't think that's the reason they should drink it, but I think it's the way to get them to drink it and to open up their minds. Again, happens to me at archive all the time where like, I will, instead of a person's asking for a $200 Giro Chardonnay, then I'll be like, yeah, but this Pearl or Martin Morris like a Dies Nouveau M or this from Theory Anthropy or whatever.
Matt Palynchuk:I'm like, it's gonna, or Last House. I'm like, and this will be a third of the price. Yeah. And it will bring you so much joy.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Yeah. I'm very conflicted on that. I saw by far by pointing out that in any warm year, they're also making domain doujins. Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But I think it should just stand on it. It should just be for something.
Matt Palynchuk:But we all we have to that's a weird balance that we have to strike. We ultimately, we're in the business of eventually selling wine. Yeah. That shouldn't be the primary focus. It should be to get people wines that they want, but the wines have to sell.
Alex Abbott Boyd:Alright. Last question to build on this. I wanna do overrated, underrated.
Matt Palynchuk:Oh, no.
Alex Abbott Boyd:I'm just gonna list some wine regions.
Matt Palynchuk:Okay. And this would be so someone who likes
Alex Abbott Boyd:to drink wine at restaurants, but not, like, in the industry. Burgundy.
Matt Palynchuk:Overrated. Champagne. Overrated. Rioja. Rated.
Matt Palynchuk:Appro I think so. Yeah. Victoria, Australia. Underrated. Galicia.
Matt Palynchuk:Underrated. Napa. Overrated. Niagara. Underrated.
Matt Palynchuk:Tuscany. Rated. Bordeaux. Rated. Canary Islands.
Matt Palynchuk:Severely underrated. Piedmont. Oh, overrated. I agree. Jura.
Matt Palynchuk:Rated. In the Willamette Valley. Underrated. Anyways, there's so many qualifications to make. I was so uncomfortable.
Alex Abbott Boyd:But It's okay. Anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up?
Matt Palynchuk:No. Thank you so much for having me. This is great. Happy I got to chat with you. And, yeah, as much as I'm talking about Raton Laveur in a public setting and getting the name out there and everything, it's a small place.
Matt Palynchuk:Expect the place. It's 18 seats. We have a lot of people coming in to try to get their photo and do their thing and enjoy their also enjoy their time by getting their photo. Great. But I don't know.
Matt Palynchuk:I just wanna temper people's expectations sometimes. Like, sometimes it could be debt, can come right in. Sometimes it's gonna be absolutely rammed. But come by, enjoy yourself, respect the space, and enjoy what I'm trying
Alex Abbott Boyd:to curate for people. Thank you so much for your time.
Matt Palynchuk:Thank
Alex Abbott Boyd:you. There's nothing you could have said to make more people come than what you just said, which is don't come.
Matt Palynchuk:I know.