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Work like you’re not a parent.
Parent like you don’t work.
What if that whole system is wrong?
This is Full Stack Moms, and we are Mallory Lee and Shannon Curran, two working moms navigating tech careers, parenting, and everything in between. We talk about why the traditional rules of work don’t fit modern parents and how women in tech are doing things differently. Through honest conversations and behind-the-scenes stories, this show explores careers, caregiving, ambition, and the messy reality of having it all, just not all at once.
Connect with Mallory: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallorylee/
Connect with Shannon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shannon-sweeny-curran/
Produced in partnership with Share Your Genius
www.shareyourgenius.com
[00:00:00] Jillian Whitlow: My family and I had our best year ever last year. Super exciting. Work was great, and then the first quarter of this year felt scary to me. I was getting less leads and less work and, you know, we had just made the decision for my husband to quit his job too and start a business. Naturally. Naturally. You know, no pressure.
[00:00:19] Yeah, exactly. But this was also sort of like my first full year in business, and I ha- one of my clients was like, "Relax. There's a cycle to all of this. The first quarter of the year is slower for a lot of people. Give it time."
[00:00:33] Mallory Lee: This is Full Stack Moms.
[00:00:34] Shannon Curran: This is not a parenting podcast, nor a business podcast, but a place where we talk, building careers in tech, raising kids at home, and making it work in public.
[00:00:45] Well, Gillian, welcome to the podcast. We're so glad to have you today. We start each show with talking about your family. So how many kids do you have? Who else lives in your house? Animal, mineral, vegetable? And what do you do for work, and then what's the nature of your work? Do you work at home? Do you go into an office?
[00:01:04] Just so everyone can kinda get context,
[00:01:05] Jillian Whitlow: um- Yeah ... on what we're working with. Awesome. So I am the mom of three kids under four. My oldest will be... Yeah, my oldest will be four in June, and my youngest will be one in June. And then I have a, those are both boys, and I have a girlie in the middle who's two. And I just live with my husband, the kiddos, and we have a almost 13-year-old dog.
[00:01:29] So she's funny because she, her name's Suma, she doesn't really like people besides my husband and I, so we were worried when we first started having kids that it wasn't gonna go very well. But of course, she welcomed them right into the tribe. But she's still a little touchy when they try to crawl on her bed and things, so it's sweet and funny.
[00:01:47] And then the nature of my work, so I am the founder and CEO and principal and all the things of a company called Ink and Honey. I recently did a rebrand, but what I focus on is LinkedIn executive branding for founders and CEOs who are interested in getting more out of their LinkedIn presence and want to harness the power there to bring their thought leadership to their audiences and also create opportunity, inbound leads, networking opportunities, partnerships.
[00:02:16] So I, my business was created sort of out of necessity following a layoff, and I never knew that, or I never really thought I would have the courage to become a business owner, but I launched it at the end of 2024, and it's been the best time of our lives. So really, really grateful. Uh, definitely stumbling my way through it all still, but loving it, and I'm lucky to work from home.
[00:02:39] And then my husband is actually a stay-at-home dad as of- Wow ... November of this last year. So we were, you know, the business has been able to sustain my little family of five, which is a really good feeling and- Amazing ... it was a big decision to have him stay home, but it's been going really great, so. I think that covers every, all your questions.
[00:03:01] Shannon Curran: Yeah. Does he stay at home with all three?
[00:03:04] Jillian Whitlow: So the littlest one, he's 10 months, and he's sleeping in the other room, so hopefully he doesn't wake up and interrupt us. But he has the older two, and I think, you know, right now we have a little piece of land. We live out in five acres, have a couple cows, three cows, and a garden.
[00:03:21] And so they're really getting like a really cool childhood and learning how to do things. So he has- I love that ... the older two that can walk. Thank. Yeah. He has the older two that can walk and like, you know, get, run around and get messy with him. And when the 10-month-old is becoming more and more of a handful for me to tend to- I have a 10-month-old too
[00:03:42] on trying to work. It's so- Mm-hmm ... I love every phase, and it's cool watching them develop and be mobile and get into things, but it's becoming really tricky to keep track of him while I'm trying to work, so I'm like, "Dude, can you just walk so you can go hang out with the other ones?" So that's the arrangement right now, but...
[00:04:02] That's awesome.
[00:04:03] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I have a 10-month-old, so t- I have a one-year-old in June as well. Wow. So...
[00:04:07] Jillian Whitlow: June. Yeah. What are the odds of that? June 4th. June 4th. Okay. He's June 1st. Yeah. And then my oldest is June 10th, so.
[00:04:15] Shannon Curran: I'm June 17th, so we love a Gemini- Wow ... in this house, so. Yeah. There is, um... Uh, I was due June 19th, but she was like, you could tell she was like, "I want my own birthday, and I wanna be before my mom."
[00:04:26] So she made sure to come- ... a little bit early. And not on Father's Day, which is what I did to my dad, so I am- Nice ... hopeful that, yeah, we're spread out a little bit. But, um, wow, three under four. I had two under two- Okay ... and I was sure I wouldn't make it, so that is- ... amazing. Qui- But you did it. You figured it out.
[00:04:41] So you actually four under four with your business. Four under four with your business. That's true. You did it all. Yeah.
[00:04:47] Jillian Whitlow: Yeah. I was laid off when I was eight weeks pregnant with my third. Oh. And they didn't know, but of course it was... I mean, and I wouldn't have changed anything. It was a company that was closing, unfortunately, but devastating certainly.
[00:05:01] And I h- haven't always been the sole provider, but I've always been the primary breadwinner. Just my husband's an incredibly hard worker, but he's a machinist by trade, and it just doesn't make as much money as whatever the heck I've figured out how to do. So I, this has j- always sort of been the arrangement, so it was really devastating when that layoff happened, and we were just trying to figure out what we were gonna do.
[00:05:22] And, you know, the job market hasn't been easy on anyone for years and years, so that was- So ... what prompted the quick pivot.
[00:05:30] Mallory Lee: That's amazing. Were you doing similar work before when you were somewhere full-time? Was it the same kind of field with content thought leadership and stuff?
[00:05:41] Jillian Whitlow: Not really. So my story has been super nonlinear, as it's the case for lots of people but- As the best ones are.
[00:05:48] As the best ones are. We figure out how to make it work, right? I've started to call myself the master pivoter. I think it's one of my strongest skill sets. But so going way back, I, I graduated high school at 16. I was top of my class. I had skipped a couple grades and made the awful mistake of going straight to college from there.
[00:06:06] And I should have taken time off. Mm. Obviously, I wasn't ready, but I wanted to be the first female president, went to college for political science, and quickly realized that wasn't it, and dropped out. I went back to a different college and started studying journalism and then philosophy. I was gonna be a neurosurgeon.
[00:06:25] I was all over the place. And- Nice ... ultimately dropped out.
[00:06:29] Shannon Curran: Well, you had some extra time to figure it out. You had some extra time.
[00:06:32] Jillian Whitlow: Oh, yeah. Clearly, I used it well to really figure things out. But, um- Well-rounded. It's well-rounded. Yes. But then I, I decided I wanted to be the first female Anthony Bour- or I wanted to be like the female Anthony Bourdain, so I then dropped out of school again to pursue a culinary degree, which I also didn't get, but I went into hospitality.
[00:06:53] Um- Quickly realized that you make no money in the back of the house, so I transitioned to the front of house and was really fortunate to work my way up through all the... I've worked pretty much every job there is to work in a restaurant and learned a lot of leadership skills from that experience. And it was when I had my first kiddo that I was like, "I c- I can't do this.
[00:07:11] Like, I cannot be out of the house for 18-hour shifts." So I fell in love with being a mom, and I pivoted to working in SaaS, which was the first time that I had ever done that, but I was doing customer support and sales for a breastfeeding support company. And it was great. I really believed in the mission.
[00:07:32] I was remote. I loved having that sort of flexibility. And then the through line through everything, though, is that I've always really loved to write. And so I reached out to Sam McKenna on LinkedIn, who is the CEO of Sam Sales, and she does LinkedIn- Yeah ... executive branding too. S- or better. She is the-
[00:07:52] LinkedIn executive brander. The category owner. Yeah. I love Sam. More or less. She's great. And so she... I started a contract position with her just about a month before I was laid off, so I was sort of doing both. I had a little bit of income from that when I was laid off, and then I was like, "Hey, I love this.
[00:08:10] Sam, do you mind if I also do this, but obviously for much, much smaller clients?" And so she thought it was great that I asked, but I've been super fortunate to work with her ever since and launched my own thing. So all that to say, no- Wow ... I have not ever done this before, but it's worked out for me, so.
[00:08:29] Mallory Lee: That is a wild ride. I love that so much. Thank you.
[00:08:33] Shannon Curran: We're a restaurant family too. My husband and I met working in a restaurant, so we are- Oh. Yeah. Which restaurant? It- how best- how all love stories begin, you know? Like, it really is. Of course. We worked at a tiny diner, like, in New Hampshire. Like, it was a weird- Oh.
[00:08:48] I, like, left LA, came back. It was like a Hallmark story. It was like big city girl comes back to small town to be a waitress. And, um, yeah, my husband worked in the kitchen. So that is, uh- Nice ... exactly how we met. Yeah. And he was in restaurants for a long time until we got married, and he was like, "Um, maybe I should be an electrician."
[00:09:08] And I was like, "That sounds great. Do that." Uh, so now he's- he became an apprentice, um, in the union for five years, and then now he's a journeyman. But yeah, it is, we're- Wow ... it's definitely in our, in our, uh, DNA, um, to- Yeah ... our restauranteurness. It's very clear when you know people that have worked in restaurants.
[00:09:28] It's, like, very obvious- Oh, yeah ... when they have or if they haven't. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you say the thing about leadership skills. I feel like it's that plus, like, efficiency. Like, you don't wanna go back to that window ever again, so how much can you carry and, like, but not drop, and, like, seem... It's like it is definitely a very...
[00:09:47] It does feel like a rite of passage to be able- It is ... to be extremely efficient with your time and space.
[00:09:51] Jillian Whitlow: I think about the efficiency side of it all the time because yeah, I- it's exactly that. You don't wanna go back to the window 'cause chef's gonna yell at you. But also, it's just better for your... You make more money as a server, right, if you can be quicker.
[00:10:04] So- Yep ... yeah, I was always thinking about what I could grab along the path that would make my trip more efficient and how I could better serve people. And so it's definitely served me well throughout my career. That is exactly-
[00:10:15] Shannon Curran: I always wanted to go back to the window to see the boy I had a crush on, so that was where I was going.
[00:10:19] Mallory Lee: Oh, well, that's different. That's different. And now he's your husband.
[00:10:21] Shannon Curran: Now he's my husband, yeah. Best investment- Okay ... I ever made. Yeah.
[00:10:27] Mallory Lee: I love it. Okay. But on a serious note, the- Yes ... leadership lesson of efficiency, that is, like, one of my biggest takeaways in, like, just life, okay? So same thing that you said, you're looking for what you can pick up along the way.
[00:10:44] And what they told me as a server is, like, you should never have empty hands. Like, coming or going, there should be something in your hands, and I have lived by that. And I do that at home. I do it- Yep ... with the kids, you know? And I, like, feel that so deeply. It's, like, one of my favorite, my favorite things.
[00:11:04] And then my friend Kevin, he's like, "Oh yeah, we did that too. We called it full hands." And I was like, "Oh, that, that sounds better. Full hands."
[00:11:09] Shannon Curran: Oh. Yeah. Someone recently said to me, "Clean with both hands." And I don't think you realize you're only using one until you think about it. Oh. So, like, when you're- Hmm
[00:11:18] cleaning your kitchen or picking up after the kids or something, like, use both hands. And I don't think... Like, I feel like a lot of people don't realize you're probably only using your dominant hand, and the other one is like- On the ground or like, like it's, I don't know. Or holding a child. I was gonna say usually- Or you've got a baby on your hip, yeah
[00:11:35] oh, a 10-month-old trying to die. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Jillian, what, um, I feel like it's a really interesting through line of going from hospitality to customer support. I feel like, uh, quite a few people had t- that was like the pivot into tech for some people. How was that experience for you? Was that like, did you find that it was super applicable, like you felt like there was a lot of trans- like transferable skills, or was it really hard to kind of navigate the change?
[00:12:03] Jillian Whitlow: I don't know. There, it was a really clear transition, which I of course n- you know, knew, and that was part of what I used when I was pestering this woman to give me a job, and she- ... definitely, you know, took a chance on me being somebody who hadn't been in SaaS at all. But I was the manager in hospitality that the servers would always come to to go to the table because I was really good at turning around the customer experience and going to speak with somebody who was super pissed off and just turning their experience around in such a way that they became evangelists and regular customers.
[00:12:39] And so I took a certain kind of pride in that. I think it is far more effective and far more gratifying than letting them get you worked up to be able to turn it around and get them to a place where they wanna come back and they wanna tell all their friends. And so of course, that translated really well and seamlessly to the customer support world.
[00:13:00] I like explaining to people why their problem is actually an opportunity and, you know- ... the things that they taught us about how we can be better, and, uh, it's true most of the time, right? Of course, there's a little bit of-
[00:13:13] Mallory Lee: Yeah ... um- Finesse ... kissing up.
[00:13:15] Jillian Whitlow: Yeah, finesse. That's a better way to put it. But I think if you're open to learning from their experience, then it only makes the company better in the end, so easy.
[00:13:25] Shannon Curran: That's like a parenting lesson too. I'm sure you apply it there as well, I can imagine.
[00:13:29] Jillian Whitlow: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think becoming a mom has made me so much better at everything I do, but obviously all of the life experience that I've had up to the point of becoming a mom has made me the mom that I am. True for everyone.
[00:13:43] Mallory Lee: True, true. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would love to dive into a topic with you, and part of the reason that I reached out to ask you to come and chat with us was that you had told this wild story on LinkedIn, and of course, you told it beautifully because that's what you do for a living. But it involved someone that was just, like, pretty awful to you about being a mom, a working mom.
[00:14:10] And so, you know, I'd love to dive in and just kind of hear that story and, you know, kind of see where we go from there.
[00:14:18] Jillian Whitlow: Yeah. I think you're talking about the guy that I was interviewing with after my layoff Yes. Yeah. So I'm hesitant to say that he was really awful, 'cause I think that he was truly trying to, like, paint a picture of what working with them would be like.
[00:14:37] Mm-hmm. But I disagree with their entire philosophy around how people should work. We're about to be misaligned. Yeah. Exact- exactly.
[00:14:44] Mallory Lee: You don't have to call him awful. So- I will do that for you. Yeah.
[00:14:48] Shannon Curran: I just think that- I agree with Mallory about everything.
[00:14:53] Jillian Whitlow: I think his heart was in the right place, is what I wanna say.
[00:14:55] But basically, so just a little plug for LinkedIn, I guess. I felt really fortunate after I got laid off because I had already spent time building a network there. And while lots of other folks around me who had been laid off couldn't even get interviews because of the competitive nature of the job market at the time, I was able to get interviews because people were referring me because I had this network.
[00:15:20] So it was super f- you know, I felt great to be interviewing with folks, but this interview that we're talking about is- You're about to smoke. Well, this is the interview that I was like, "All right. You know, I'm done. I need to find something else that's gonna work 'cause this isn't it." But I ... So it, it was a startup.
[00:15:36] It was a tech startup, and you know, he was asking me about my life and my family, and he asked me, "So are you a mom first or an employee first?" And my jaw just sort of dropped in that moment because it seems like such an intuitive question to me. Are there people that are not parents first? Maybe, but I-
[00:15:57] Shannon Curran: An employee is a crazy s- statement.
[00:16:00] Like- Yeah ... maybe some people wanna be business owners first, but an employee of this guy? Yeah, exactly. That seems like a little much.
[00:16:07] Jillian Whitlow: Yeah. A little much. And the reason that I say I think his heart was in the right place was because he was like, "I just, I ask because I want you to know we're a fast-moving startup, and we work 80 hours a week, and we need to be available at all
[00:16:19] You know, all the, yeah, all these hours that are late into the night, and you don't necessarily have to answer during the day, but if you don't, then we expect you to be, you know, working after hours at 10:00 PM or whatever the case may be, which I do all the time for my business, but it's not- Right
[00:16:35] something I would really be willing to do- For your business, man ... yeah, exactly- Yeah ... for somebody else. And so- Yeah ... that was really the moment that I was like, "All right. I'm not gonna find a job that I'm aligned with and they're aligned with quick enough to replace my income as the primary breadwinner."
[00:16:50] And so the, you know, as flabbergasted as I was by that question, it was also the turning point where I was like, "Okay, I'm just gonna try to bet on myself and see what happens because this ain't it."
[00:17:02] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Um- so what did you say to him?
[00:17:05] Jillian Whitlow: I told, I told him, "Well, I'm a mom first, of course." Yeah. "My, my family is everything.
[00:17:09] My kids are everything. I will always choose them." You know, and I told him, "I'm willing to put in work outside of normal hours. I have always done that to be able to make both work, but my family will always come first." And so They also did not want to proceed with me as a candidate, so at least we were aligned there, but I don't know about you guys.
[00:17:31] Mallory Lee: Like, all three of us, you know, we have our networks, we talk on LinkedIn to each other and to other people, and all of us talk about being moms on LinkedIn, and that's, like, part of who we are. And so people, they know that about us, right? And I wonder how this works for people who maybe are not sharing quite so much, but they used to tell you, okay, in an interview, they're not allowed to ask you if you have kids.
[00:17:58] They're not allowed to ask you, you know, how old you are and all of these things. I feel like because I put my life out there, uh, it's silly for me to think that they don't know that I'm a mom. You know, like, half a scroll on my profile you'll probably see that. So See it in your header.
[00:18:16] Shannon Curran: No scroll. Yeah.
[00:18:17] Yeah.
[00:18:17] Mallory Lee: Yeah. I'm sure it is, right? Yeah. And I'm, I'm proud of it, so, like, I would never hide it. Mm. But it just makes me curious if there are still interviews where people are talking formally and it's like, "Don't ask me if I'm a mom. Like, it's none of your business." Like, is that just antiquated, or is that still the way things are for some people?
[00:18:39] Jillian Whitlow: I mean, I see stories about it on LinkedIn fairly frequently where- Yeah ... people at least feel marginalized by the fact that they are a mom, or they don't wanna talk about it. Or I've had people comment on my posts about my pride in my motherhood that they are still taught to not divulge the fact that they're a mom.
[00:19:02] Hmm. And it breaks my heart. I don't know how you keep that a secret, for one thing. It's gonna come up- Yeah ... at some point. But why would you want- Yeah ... to? You know? I think that's a really harsh existence, and I feel for folks who are still in that position. And of course, it's easy to say, "Just don't work there.
[00:19:19] Like, find something else to do," but it... That's a lot easier said than done, especially with- in the world we live in right now, so it's hard.
[00:19:26] Shannon Curran: Mm-hmm. So Mallory, I know that you've had a few new jobs since becoming a mom, right? Like, you've done this, where you've gotten... You've been interviewed. You've interviewed.
[00:19:36] Mm-hmm. And so would love to know how you go about it in an interview typically, 'cause I feel like you're very good at making sure flexibility is in your W2 life, right? 'Cause I know, like, Jillian and I both peaced out of the W2 life. So would love to hear how you, like, how you navigate that in an interview for folks that wanna stay full time, because that is something that a lot of people want to do.
[00:19:56] Mallory Lee: Yeah, perfect question. So I have a background where I wasn't always a W2, and I had some years where I was consulting on and off between having the boys. And so sometimes in an interview, people would ask, you know, "Why don't you wanna be a consultant? You know, you could probably make a lot more money," and You know, I'm very upfront about the fact that I love being on a team.
[00:20:22] I love having a team that I can build relationships with and work with, and these people ultimately end up talking to you more during the day than, like anybody, right? You spend so much time together. So the people I'm working with are super important to me. The flexibility of the environment is super important to me.
[00:20:40] And so I'm always very upfront about that because people do know that I have kids, and, you know, I've said this a couple times, but, like, the tech world, I'm just so incredibly grateful for the fact that, yes, there's a lot of hours, and yes, it can be crazy, but the flexibility is kind of inherently built in to certain companies, and I think you can tell that when you're interviewing with them, but I don't hide from it.
[00:21:08] And I actually have a fun story about this because when I was interviewing at PhoneBurner, we were, you know, kind of far-ish down the path of determining, you know, are we gonna do this thing? Are we not? And we were in those final stages, and they asked me if I could be the assistant teacher in Grayson's church class.
[00:21:32] And this class was on Wednesdays at 4:30. And I thought, "Oh, no. How am I gonna, you know, commit to this when I'm working with all these people potentially on the West Coast, and I don't even have this job yet? Like, what do I do?" But I felt like I wanted to do it, to help out. And so I think that, I don't know, maybe this was a crazy thing for me to do, but I texted the CEO, and I said, "Hey, look, I know that we haven't finalized anything yet, but I have this opportunity to help out.
[00:22:05] This is kind of, like, the impact to the schedule, and I could be very pres- presumptuous, but I wanna know if you're cool with it." And he was like... He replied pretty quickly, and he said, "I'm totally cool with that. That's amazing. You didn't have to ask me, but I love that this is the type of thing that you wanna pursue."
[00:22:26] He's like, "You should absolutely say yes." And then a few days later, I had a job offer. And I loved, like, how that unfolded, and it wasn't any kind of test to try to see, like, how committed he was to bringing me on to the team or anything. I just truly didn't want to mess up, you know, what if there's, like, some kind of team meeting at 4:00 every Wednesday or, you know, stuff like that.
[00:22:50] So I just wanted to check with him, and luckily it worked out great. But I think that it's just part of who I am, and I'm always as clear as I can be. And if I felt like somebody wasn't okay with it or if I felt like I had to hide it That definitely wouldn't be the right place for me because it's just so important.
[00:23:08] Jillian Whitlow: What's your advice to people that are like, "I just really need the job," and they, they wanna have these non-negotiables around their kids, but they're sort of panicking. How do you tell people to handle that?
[00:23:20] Mallory Lee: Well, it's a good question. I know what you mean by the fact that the circumstances could be different.
[00:23:26] You know, how many places are you interviewing? What kinds of places are you interviewing? When you get into that season where it's like whatever the next yes is, we're doing it, I think that you have to be equally flexible on your side. So like Shannon, for example, I know that she's always been super firm about wanting to do pickup at school for her kids, which is amazing.
[00:23:53] But if you get into a situation where you really need this client and they really need you to be online at that time, then I think that you find a plan B and you introduce some of the flexibility, you know, in your own life where you can. And I think that again, it's like this concept of flexibility where if you can't be online at a certain time, you can be online later.
[00:24:19] But, you know, I think that moms, what we are so good at, is just making it work. And if there was an employer, like if I was talking to that guy who asked you, "Are you a mom first, or are you employee first?" I'd be like, "I am for sure a mom first, but nothing drops." Like, you just make it work. Yeah. There's, you won't know I'm a mom first unless you ask me questions about it, but like, that is the truth.
[00:24:47] That is the answer. And it just sucks that people feel like they have to hide that. I absolutely hate it because it's, it's not fair. And I don't know, it just makes me mad, but that's, I don't know.
[00:25:00] Shannon Curran: I think there's also, that's a good example that you made, Mallory, 'cause I've actually missed pickup the last few weeks because- Mm-hmm
[00:25:06] I have a few client meetings now that I've pushed 'cause I have a West Coast client. Mm-hmm. And I'm actually okay with that. Like, I- Mm ... because I decided that I'm okay with it. And I also think that all of these things are fluid, right? Like there's- Yeah ... a, like, a constant give and take, right? 'Cause my kids are gonna need different things throughout different parts of their life too, right?
[00:25:25] Like, it's... And also my husband really likes pickup too, so I think there's a part of that too. He would love. Like, is there anything better when they're... Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Oh, forget it. Yeah. Like, it, there's like the dopamine hit is like wow, like, you know. And so I think there's... But when I go into a client, I usually say, "My typical boundaries are these things.
[00:25:44] Does that work for you? Let's negotiate what doesn't work, what does work." And then I, like, find a way for them, for all, for everyone to, for it to work for everybody. And I think- Yeah ... I often think too, Jillian, I don't know if you've found this, but that they kinda just wanna know you have a plan. Yeah.
[00:25:58] Mm-hmm. Like, I think a lot of people just wanna know, like- You've done this before and have it figured out because I think there's this, there's, we're still in a very new era of people feeling like they can be very present parents and very present, like, high achieving workers at the same time. Dads too, right?
[00:26:17] Like- Yeah ... I think my husband says this all the time. Like, there's, like, he can be both of those things, but, like, I think back to many generations before us and it was like you saw your dad on Saturday, right? Like, because that was it. Yeah. Right? We're in an era where people want to be both. And so I think everyone's still trying to figure out, like, who are the people that are doing it.
[00:26:35] I often say to my ... Like, my clients get Slacks from me at 10:00 PM. I'm like, "I can delay send them til 9:00 if you want in the morning." But they're like, "No, no, no. Like, send them and we'll get to them when we can get to them," and all the work gets done, right? And I always do, I don't know how you handle this with your clients, but I commit to weekly interlocks at the beginning of a, of a, an agreement.
[00:26:54] It's like, all right, so I'm going to make this, we have a half hour on Monday, an hour on Thursday, and a half hour on Tuesday that are consistent. Everything else is up for grabs all the time, right? Like, there's kind of ... Maybe it's a little different for you 'cause you probably work on, like ... Actually, I wanna know how that works for you.
[00:27:11] Yeah. But I think there's this, like, constant negotiation back and forth of, like, I have a plan. It's all gonna happen. Mm-hmm. So don't worry if your concern is output. I'm not worried. But if your concern is you want to physically see me in my seat eight hours a day, then we have a bigger issue. Um- Yeah ... a bigger value misalignment, I would say probably.
[00:27:29] Jillian Whitlow: Yeah. I was really bad at it in the beginning. I was very on all the time. Every text, every Slack, every Teams message, like, got responded to immediately, and I felt stressed. Or stressed that I was the only one applying to respond right away and always be available. I was sort of in this mindset where I was super uncertain of myself and I didn't want to be the one to push back or offer a different way of doing things.
[00:27:57] But slowly I've come to recognize that my clients hire me because they value my opinion. They want me to push back and, like you said, they want to understand that you have a plan, that you have everything under control. There are all sorts of times where I make exceptions to this, but I try to mostly take my meetings at 9:30 in the morning or, like, 3:30, 4:00 in the afternoon because I want all that time in between as, like, head-down work time.
[00:28:26] So I've started to put little boundaries in place like that. And then I try to assess people through discovery. I try to make sure that we have an understanding that they trust that the work will get done. Like you said, the output will never be an issue. Do you care really what time it gets done as long as it's delivered on time?
[00:28:46] Very proudly have never missed a deadline and never will. And if the, if the- Atta girl ... work itself is good. Yeah. Uh, there's always a way, like you said. I mean, moms are really good at figuring things out, figuring out- Ruthless
[00:28:59] Shannon Curran: Yeah, exactly. Get sh*t done.
[00:29:01] Jillian Whitlow: So, um, oh, yeah. If I have to take an entire day 'cause I have to take my kid to the doctor or whatever, I have a doctor's appointment, I'll be offline, but I'll finish everything.
[00:29:12] I've been telling my clients this upfront. If I say some- that I'll deliver something by the end of the day, I mean, like, before I lay my head down to sleep, not by 5:00 PM. Big difference. I need them to understand. I don't care when your day ends. Yeah. My day- Exactly ... ends when I go to bed.
[00:29:27] Shannon Curran: Yeah.
[00:29:27] Jillian Whitlow: Exactly. So that's actually been a really helpful line with clients too, so that they understand, like, it's coming still.
[00:29:32] You wake up tomorrow, you'll have it. Just don't worry about when I get it done, okay? So.
[00:29:36] Shannon Curran: Love that.
[00:29:37] Mallory Lee: Yep. I'm that girl who's like, "I could get up and do it at 4:00 AM- Oh, y- ... and that'll still be before they start their day." Yeah.
[00:29:46] Shannon Curran: It's actually before your next day starts. It's not when your day ends. Right?
[00:29:49] It's when your next day starts.
[00:29:51] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Gosh.
[00:29:52] Jillian Whitlow: But I'm a procrastinator, so. Oh, man. Sometimes I work better under pressure too, like knowing I have to meet that deadline, so I can be a procrastinator too.
[00:30:02] Shannon Curran: Yeah, I think that's pretty universal. I think there's a want for me to be able to do my best work, right?
[00:30:08] And that can only happen in certain environments and changes over time. Because, like, we just went through a horrible sleep regression for, like, a month, and that meant I wasn't getting up before my kids. It just wasn't possible. Like, it just ... Like, when you've been up all night and then one of the kids end up in your bed, you can't really leave them 'cause they'll fall.
[00:30:26] Yeah. So, like, there was a lot of stress on me for a little bit of like, oh, so things are really changing for me. And the good thing is I didn't really have to tell anyone this, right? Like, 'cause I ... Like, my clients definitely noticed. One of them yesterday was like, "You got a little less pizzazz than usual."
[00:30:41] And I was like- ... yeah. I try to not let them see me sweat, but it is ... It happens, you know? And so a few days ago she slept three full nights, and so I was ready to run a marathon, right? Yeah. And so I got way more done in that day than I normally would, right? Yeah. And so it's just like we can't pretend like we function for eight hours a day in a perfect way either.
[00:31:01] It's not where I give you my best output either. Like, don't you want the best I got? Mm-hmm. Like, I- I want the best you got, you know? Like, there's ... So let's figure out how that works, right? Mallory, do you have any parents that report to you in your role now? Yeah, one. How do you navigate being, like, a in-house boss to someone that, like, has little kids or, like, wants more flexibility?
[00:31:24] Mallory Lee: Same philosophy is if the work is getting done, then we have nothing to talk about. Right? And a lot of us at Zipline and other places that I've worked, you know, we put the kid pickup calendar block on the calendar, and people see that, they respect it. They're not going to book meetings over that time.
[00:31:48] And, you know, sometimes Brian will be the one to pick them up, and my calendar block will just say, like, dinner, because that's the time where I am, you know, full mom mode, and I'm not working because they've just gotten home from school. They're throwing their sh*t all over the house, and I'm trying to figure out what we're gonna eat.
[00:32:10] And so I think that talking it through and, like, just blocking your calendar is the best way. And, you know, these people that are on my team now, they've worked at Zipline longer than me, so I didn't interview them or anything like that. But I'm always upfront about that in the interview. Like, "Hey, a lot of people here, you know, are also parents, and this is the flexibility.
[00:32:33] This is kind of the way we all make it work." And so that's, you know, it's really just kind of managing outputs. But I love it when there's, like, the Slack channel where people are sharing pictures of their kids, and I just sent in to that little Slack channel, like, a picture of us on the beach from spring break, and everybody loves it, and it's celebrated instead of something that is, you know, seemingly the wrong thing to do.
[00:32:58] And so, you know, just the environment that you're in makes all the difference there, I think.
[00:33:03] Shannon Curran: I often wanna be like, at... Now I'm thinking back to that conversation you had, Gillian, and you should've, uh, I... Could you ask him, like, do you wish your mom was a mother first or a pa- an employee first? Like, you...
[00:33:14] Like, we all had parents. We all came from moms. You know what I mean? Like- Yeah ... that is the craziest... Sorry, I'm just processing this information slowly.
[00:33:21] Jillian Whitlow: You know what's funny too? I think he was saying he was recently married, and they hoped to have kids in a couple years, and I was like, "Okay, well, you'll see."
[00:33:30] You know? And I handed him in- I hate to be that guy, but you'll see. Yeah. Yeah. And it's- You'll see. You know, it's... I think, like, obviously I have always tried to be understanding of people with kids, but it's true that you can't really know- Yeah ... until you're in it, you know? You can't fully understand. So I don't know, I give people some grace there too.
[00:33:50] But they're, like... Yeah, I don't know. The reality is we all have responsibilities outside of work that we need to tend to, and hopefully we're people and family members first above em- being an employee. But I guess that's- Yeah ... not how some people see the world.
[00:34:08] Shannon Curran: It is funny. I think a part of me thinks that part is gone.
[00:34:11] Like, that this- Mm-hmm ... even when we talked to Alina from Chili Piper, that she's, like, meeting some of their competitors in San Francisco, and people are sleeping in nap pods overnight, like, at these AI companies 'cause they constantly feel behind. And I was like, that feels so 2014 to me, but I guess that is, it's happening again, right?
[00:34:28] We're on a- we're in another, like, rush, I do think- Yeah ... of the tech world of, like, things got cushy for a little bit, and people were able t- p- teams were big. And of course, we also worked hard, but every company was growing. And so I think- Mm-hmm ... flexibility became kind of, like, a lot easier to- Yeah ... give as a company, right?
[00:34:46] Mm-hmm. And now I think there is a lot of insecurity with these companies wanting to grow and be the one, right? Like, the AI race is, like, so real. And I think there's, the flexibility's certainly pulling back. Like, I'm sure you're not the only person that had an interview like that in the last two years, right?
[00:35:02] Like, that's- Oh, yeah ... you know. And sure, I'm glad that he was honest about it, because you would've been miserable in that job, and, like, cool. Like, that's good, I guess. Yeah. But I do think there is ... It's not quite as ubiquitous as it used to be. So I think there is- Yeah ... this want to ... And I know Mallory and I are so, literally built an entire, like, media platform about being honest about the fact that this is still the right way to do work, right?
[00:35:24] It's still- Yeah ... you know, doesn't mean I'm working less hours, like Mallory and I always talk about, right? It just means, like, we have to preserve this part for us to be able to be whole humans, right? Like, I don't think we can go back on that.
[00:35:37] Jillian Whitlow: Yeah. Yeah. The AI race is concerning to me, too, because I see, and I've written about this on LinkedIn plenty of times, but I see people burning out, recognizing their burnout, recognizing that they're more productive now, but they're not working any less hours.
[00:35:55] In fact, they're probably working more. More. And so, yeah. They're working more, they're ... And I, uh, it's just kind of crappy, 'cause I hate to see people panicking over keeping up or not getting left behind or, you know, whatever.
[00:36:08] Shannon Curran: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:08] Jillian Whitlow: And I made this argument recently, too. It's like, if the tools are so easy to use and so easy to learn, why do you feel like you have to spend hours a day in Claude Code just to keep up?
[00:36:19] It's crazy. I, I mean, it's all really interesting. I think it's good to know what's going on, right, in the world around you. Yeah. It's good to keep abreast of what's happening and play with the tools, but I worry for these people that are just getting completely lost in them. So- Yeah ... I hope they keep putting their families first, I guess, is what I want to say.
[00:36:44] Shannon Curran: Can't Claude Code your kids, that's for sure. You can't do that. Cannot.
[00:36:47] Jillian Whitlow: I actually wrote a satirical post about how, uh, it was like ... And people, some people took it seriously, which, like, blows my mind every time. There's always somebody that takes it seriously. But I wrote a satirical post about, like, an open Claude agent, like, taking care of my kids, basically.
[00:37:01] Or, like- Yeah ... putting together all the different bots that took care of my kids for me. So anyway Don't do that
[00:37:08] Shannon Curran: Oh, man. Too funny Be there for your- I'm sure this... I know. Don't do that. The answer is, I'm sure this comes up for you a lot in your line of work. I would like to ask you, I'm sure which a lot of people do, is the disruption of AI in the work that you do, right?
[00:37:22] I think a lot of people are probably like, "Oh, I just use, like I trained a Claude agent to write all my LinkedIn posts, so now I just like post them all the time, and it's great." Is it? No. Yeah. So would love to hear like how that... I know, just to get a little bit into your business, just in ca- like would love for if people are listening that wanna work with you, like what is, what has that been like for you?
[00:37:42] Jillian Whitlow: I mean, I'll be honest. So I think it's evolving really quickly, right? So in the beginning- Mm-hmm ... people thought, "Oh, I can just use ChatGPT to write my stuff and it'll be great." And then people quickly realized that ChatGPT was not it, right? That was all really obvious and really bad. And then the beginning of this year honestly felt really scary for me.
[00:38:03] My family and I had our best year ever last year. Super exciting. Work was great, and then the first quarter of this year felt scary to me. I was getting less leads and less work and, you know, we had just made the decision for my husband to quit his job too and start a business. Naturally. You know, no pressure.
[00:38:21] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But this was also sort of like my first full year in business, and I ha- one of my clients was like, "Relax. There's a cycle to all of this. The first quarter of the year is slower for a lot of people. Give it time." But all that to say, I think, I would imagine at least part of it was AI and Claude becoming better at these things, right?
[00:38:44] People making- Yeah ... the switch to Claude and getting really excited about this shiny tool. Some of it was just a slower quarter for people generally in not wanting to invest in things like the services that I offer. But what I am seeing is that, and I've talked about this on LinkedIn too, the writing is a really small fraction of what I actually do.
[00:39:05] And the majority of the skillset that I offer is really more strategic. So can you go to Claude and put your thoughts in and get drafts that it spits out? Yeah, you can. And they're a lot better than what ChatGPT used to do. Although, I think people are becoming more and more aware of like, you know, everyone talks about the em dash and the contrast of structure and all the things that make it clear that somebody used a ri- AI to write their stuff, but the real tell to me is that there's no soul whatsoever in the posts.
[00:39:38] So it's less about these little- Like da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you get through the whole thing and it didn't say anything. It didn't say anything interesting. You don't have their perspective. You don't have their point of view. You just have like maybe an insight, but doesn't make you feel anything, right?
[00:39:54] And it certainly isn't well-targeted at the people that they're trying to reach. So that's been my strategic positioning, and it's also really honest. I think- Having the bulk of what I do is content interviews with people that I'm, you know, spending that time pulling the stories out of them that are really worth telling.
[00:40:13] And so I'm, I'm more of a sparring partner as I know some people like to call AI, but that helps them think strategically about the stories that they should be telling to talk to the people that they're trying to reach. So some people will have success, you know, doing that with Claude or whatever AI they choose to go with, but I think we are sort of seeing a pendulum swing back in the direction of human crafted content.
[00:40:40] And it'll take a while I think. It's taken a while already for people- Yeah ... for the mass general public to, like, really recognize AI writing, 'cause there's not always something wrong with it. Right. But you can tell eventually as you start to, to read these things, so yeah. Yeah. Um-
[00:41:00] Shannon Curran: Yeah, it's also very dependent on what you put into it, right?
[00:41:03] It is, yeah. Like, if you're just having it transcribe something you're saying, that's one thing, right? Like, you're having it literally just- Yeah ... hit the keys for you. That's something different than create a post about X. Yeah, giving it no context and no thought.
[00:41:16] Mallory Lee: Make me sound smart.
[00:41:19] Shannon Curran: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:41:20] Jillian Whitlow: Well, and it's funny, I'll have to...
[00:41:22] I don't remember the exact study, but th- there was... And I don't even remember who did the study, so this is not going to be very insightful. But there was a study done- ... that showed that even people that just put it in and said like, "Clean up my grammar," if they wrote the full first draft, it ended up changing the overall thesis- Yes
[00:41:39] or at least some of the points- Mm-hmm ... because AI is by design aggressively average. It just wants to take the most middle of the road path. And so it's gonna change- Yeah ... at least the language that you've used, and it's gonna dampen your message. So just something to be aware of, I suppose.
[00:41:58] Mallory Lee: Yeah. That's a good takeaway.
[00:42:00] Well, I assume that if people want to ask you about your work and your company, LinkedIn is the place to find you.
[00:42:07] Jillian Whitlow: Yeah. It's definitely the easiest place to find me, and then there's, you know, contact information on there as well if you wanna email me directly, but.
[00:42:13] Shannon Curran: Awesome. Cool. Jillian, we do the same segment at, with every episode, which is called our save of the week, which is people, process, product that allowed you to be a working parent this week.
[00:42:25] So something that helped you navigate your life. So-
[00:42:29] Jillian Whitlow: People, product, or process ...
[00:42:31] Shannon Curran: I guess I... Yes. So Mallory, do you have one? Do you wanna go first?
[00:42:35] Mallory Lee: Uh,
[00:42:36] yes. I will go first. Okay. Okay. I'm laughing at myself because this is the first time that I'm sharing a, quote-unquote, "system," and I'm laughing because I feel like I have no systems.
[00:42:51] But I do have one, and it's been going pretty well- You do ... lately, and it has to do with bedtime. And bedtime is a lot. It's always hard, especially with, you know- three that you're trying to deal with. And Brian and I are, like, trading off and in and out of the rooms and everything like that, but he's a quick bedtime guy.
[00:43:14] He'll do, like, the story usually, and then a quick good night, and he tickles the crap out of them, and then he's gone. And when I tuck them in, it's like, we need to cuddle, we need to talk, you know, we need to, like, debrief about our day. And I had been, depending on the day, I had been in the kids' rooms for just forever, and it took a really long time.
[00:43:40] And then the older they got, the more that they started to question, you know, like, "Hey, you were in his room longer than you were in mine. And, you know, I'm not ready for you to stop cuddling yet." And then they'd come to each other's doors and bang on the door and be like, "It's my turn," you know? And it just became this, like, free-for-all.
[00:44:02] And so pretty recently we've implemented a five-minute cuddle for everybody. And I set the timer on my watch and I'm like, "Okay, it's, you know, five minutes. Let's cuddle." And I think it's working because it's undeniably fair. No one can, you know, basically claim that somebody else is getting more time. And I think we're also more intentional in those five minutes because we know I'm not gonna be laying there for a half hour.
[00:44:31] So it's getting me through the bedtime process a little bit more quickly, and so far so good. So that's my new system.
[00:44:39] Shannon Curran: Love that. Love that. Yeah. Jillian, do you have one?
[00:44:42] Jillian Whitlow: Yes. Um, it's... So I mentioned I have three under four, and it's been really, uh, the oldest has always wanted to help with the younger two, but there was a time when that was mostly just dangerous and not helpful.
[00:44:53] But now- Right ... you know, now he- I'm like- ... understands and he listens and he really wants to help. And the youngest, the 10-month-old, he's the whiniest baby I've ever had. He's just- Like, he's very happy, but he needs so much attention. Yeah. And he just wants to constantly be engaged. And the oldest loves his little brother, so this week I've...
[00:45:16] Well, for many weeks I suppose at this point, I've just kind of sicked the oldest on the youngest and told him to... I just tell him, "Go fix Odie." And- Oh ... he, like, dances around in his face and makes funny noises at him, and then Odie stops crying. Aw. And I can do other things, and I don't have to constantly hold him.
[00:45:35] So I guess leveraging my tiny babysitter to babysit the littlest one. That's amazing. I love that. My people and my process this week.
[00:45:46] Shannon Curran: That made me... Woo. I'm... I haven't cried on an episode in a bit, but that was close. That was... I know. That's-
[00:45:53] Whoo.
[00:45:53] It's just so cute to think they wanna help. I know. It's so cute.
[00:45:57] Yeah. My oldest wants the youngest in his crib every morning. When I go to wake him up, he goes- Mm ... "I want the baby in my crib and I want you in the kitchen." Is what he always says. Oh. So I'm like- And barefoot. It does sound bad, but what he means is he wants me to get them a snack. Yeah, yeah. And then it's like, "I want you to bring me a snack."
[00:46:18] Mallory Lee: I smell, I smell many breakfast moms. So what are you doing? No.
[00:46:22] Shannon Curran: He really just wants me to go away so that they can play, and I'm like, "That's not safe for the baby." Yeah. I love the idea of that, but I should still watch you. He is very funny. I guess I'd rather him want to part- around than not want her around.
[00:46:34] But I think my save this week, I know Mallory, I feel like this was yours a few weeks ago, is so I live in Boston. I live right outside of Boston. And if people live in Boston, they're like, "No, you don't. You live far." Okay. I live in a suburb, northern suburb. And we finally have good weather. This was like- Goodness
[00:46:50] the longest winter of all time. It was like so much snow, so cold. And so every day after, my son's in daycare, my daughter is, I have a lot of different childcare for her right now. But when my son gets home, he, we don't even go inside anymore right now. It's like, just go right into the backyard. The dogs are outside.
[00:47:10] My son- Yeah ... every day, "I'm gonna go outside and dig. I wanna dig." Dig. So he just has- Yep ... yeah, he just has a shovel and he just digs for like- Yeah ... a long time. Like as- I'm like, "All right." I really can't wait for her to be able to walk. Same situation of like right now it is kinda hard to have her outside 'cause it's like muddy and like, you know, it's kinda gross.
[00:47:29] But we're also, it's bath every night now, right? We're coming into this season where it's like- Oh, yeah ... these kids are coming in dirty. And it's like, it's like really awesome to see what this summer is gonna potentially be. Like last summer I was freshly postpartum and it was really hard. Like I-
[00:47:44] Yeah ...
[00:47:45] I think a lot of people talk about wanting to have a summer baby and I, oh man, I like really struggled last summer keeping them out of the sun, like making sure they're not like, you know, it, and then having a two, almost two-year-old that really wanted to play outside, and it was just like feeling like you were torn in many places.
[00:48:00] And I'm seeing like the potential light for the summer with us- Yeah ... going outside after school every day, and the dogs are so happy, and- Mm-hmm ... it's like really nice. Yeah. We've been eating dinner outside, you know, just like, you know. Nice. Yes. Of course today it's raining, but it's been like, I think that's a big save for us coming out of the hibernation period over here.
[00:48:18] Mallory Lee: Awesome. You're gonna have the best summer of your whole entire life. I know it.
[00:48:23] Shannon Curran: Oh. And you had one of these, right? Where you had two little ones and then... The third one I feel like is cause, must cause extra danger in the summer, but I could imagine. When you have two hands, I feel like you could probably get control.
[00:48:35] Mallory Lee: Yeah. Yeah. I also did the three kids under the age of four, so I feel you- Wow ... Jillian. Like, that, whew, it's intense, so. Yeah. I'm thrilled for you that you get to do it on your own terms and that you have- Thank you ... an awesome, supportive husband that is, like, teaching your kids to be grown-ups on the farm, and I just- Yeah
[00:48:58] think that's all so cool. I'm blessed. Have loved talking to you today. I know. Thank you- Likewise ... for coming and chatting with us, and hopefully we can do it again soon. I would love that. Thank y'all for having me. It was wonderful. Of course, of course.
[00:49:13] Shannon Curran: Bye. Absolutely. Well, have a great rest of your day. You too.
[00:49:15] Bye. Talk soon. Bye. Thanks for listening to Full Stack Moms.
[00:49:19] Mallory Lee: We'll be back with more episodes that help you see you're not crazy and you're not alone. If we might be your people, please make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:49:29] So Shannon, do you think I'm a person who's worked in a restaurant?
[00:49:32] Shannon Curran: Were you a hostess? You give me hostess vibes.
[00:49:35] Mallory Lee: No.
[00:49:36] Shannon Curran: No?
[00:49:36] Mallory Lee: Mm-mm.
[00:49:37] Shannon Curran: I could have believed it. You, did you not work in a restaurant or did you scoop ice cream?
[00:49:44] Mallory Lee: Did I scoop ice cream? No.
[00:49:46] Shannon Curran: I feel like you'd be good at that.
[00:49:47] Mallory Lee: I'm actually a terrible scooper. Oh my gosh. Brian is going to laugh so hard at this conversation. I am the worst ice cream scooper.