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In episode 039, I finally caught up with my old friend and colleague, Julian Davies. He started as a Sales guy for Stella Artois in the UK, then moved to SABMiller where he wrote the brand-building strategy, before taking a Senior Marketing role at Bombay Sapphire. He now consults start-ups and is the Founder of Ostara English vermouth. I hope you enjoy our chat.
Time Stamps
00:00 Introduction
00:56 Background
03:54 Communicating Bottom Up Philosophy
10:51 Brand Lifecycles
16:42 Difference Between Large and Small Drinks Companies
19:56 Role of The Brand Owner
26:58 Podcast and Brand Similarities
31:23 Why Start a Brand?
41:40 Outro
About The Host: Chris Maffeo
About The Guest: Julian Davies
Show Notes
Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com
In episode 039, I finally caught up with my old friend and colleague, Julian Davies. He started as a Sales guy for Stella Artois in the UK, then moved to SABMiller where he wrote the brand-building strategy, before taking a Senior Marketing role at Bombay Sapphire. He now consults start-ups and is the Founder of Ostara English vermouth. I hope you enjoy our chat. Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction 00:56 Background 03:54 Communicating Bottom Up Philosophy 10:51 Brand Lifecycles 16:42 Difference Between Large and Small Drinks Companies 19:56 Role of The Brand Owner 26:58 Podcast and Brand Similarities 31:23 Why Start a Brand? 41:40 Outro About The Host: Chris Maffeo About The Guest: Julian Davies
Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at bottomup@maffeodrinks.com or find out more at maffeodrinks.com
Creators and Guests
What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?
The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.
For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.
20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.
Insights come from sitting at the bar.
Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.
Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.
Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com
Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.
I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 39, I finally caught
up with my old friend and
colleague Julian Davis.
He started as a sales guy for
stellar twine in the UK, then
moved to SCB Miller where he
wrote the brand building
strategy before taking a senior
marketing role at Bombay
Sapphire.
He now consult startups and is
the founder of Ostara English
Vermouth.
I hope you enjoy our chat.
Hi, Julian, how you doing?
I'm really good.
Thanks mate.
How are you?
I'm good.
I'm good.
It's it's nice and cold here
with minus degrees.
It's one of those days that I
remember.
I'm from Rome and I'm not made
for this kind of weather, but
it's OK.
It's this is this has gone wrong
already, mate.
I'm the British guy and I'm
supposed to speak about the
weather 1st, and you're supposed
to just tolerate that.
But I can talk to you about the
weather if you want.
It's snowing here.
I think so, yeah, I'm just
trying to stay warm myself.
No, it's good to talk to you,
mate.
So this is, this is a great
episode.
We've been waiting to to do a
session for for ages.
It's long.
It's long overdue.
And I mean people may have heard
already, you know our
interaction back in the days of
Clubhouse when we had our our
room called winning with drinks
reset in the room.
And it was cool for well, like 6
months I'd say.
And then everything reopened and
then everybody basically like
nobody wanted to be on Clubhouse
anymore.
And then it all went weird and
and we stopped it.
There was.
There was, it was heady times,
my friend, you know, feeling
like a sort of COVID celebrity
on cloud.
It was great.
I remember you phoning me and
telling me that, you know, we
were just chatting, weren't we?
We'd been chatting for hours and
hours and hours and just going,
hey, this is really smart, other
people should hear this.
It kind of went from there and
it was great to be sort of
reconnected with so many old
friends on that for a little for
a little while and it was a lot
of fun, no, but I I've been
looking forward to this
conversation as well, so.
Like you know and then we made a
lot of friends and you know many
of them are actually you know,
part of this podcast and this
conversation.
So it's a nice continuation of
that.
And also like another point to
to raise is that actually you
know you are the guilty one to
make me interesting into this
way of building premium brands.
I I still remember the first
time we met and you know in in
in walking in the office and
then you were teaching me how to
build global brands.
I've been on the receiving side
of of of things from the global
brands way and and how to build
global brands and that that got
me into really digging into I
want to know more and I want to
do more and I want to understand
more how how these things happen
it's.
Very kind of you to say mate.
I love doing that global brands
way stuff.
And my my memory of it is
working as almost a sort of
subculture within a big
monstrous Brewing Company that
could open up 90% distribution
very quickly in any market that
it chose to.
And then a small little gang of
us trying to convince people
about another way of doing
things and how to build brands
slowly and patiently and kind of
go through all that process.
And yeah, that was the start of
it really for me.
And one of the probably one of
the best times of my career was
going out and and meeting people
like you because you kind of
bring this effectively academic
exercise in a way to people,
cool guys like you meeting this
cool Italian guy I remember and
thinking God, what's he going to
think of me with my little
textbook.
But, but but to see that kind of
taken and then and and you guys
operating in in bars as you were
and and seeing that it sort of
worked for you guys made me
realize that it was kind of
definitely the right approach
And that yeah that was our sort
of first, our first foray into
doing it.
And that's I I don't like to
think about how many years ago
that was now because it makes me
feel a bit old.
But that was our first, no, our
first dealings with each other,
and that's great to be still
talking to you about it now.
Absolutely.
And it's a little bit what you
said in the beginning the the
interaction, you know, the
continuous interaction that
we've been having since since we
met in always kind of like
challenging each other and
bringing the academic side of
things down to like a very
pragmatic level.
And then you know keeping each
other from derailing, not going
to fluffy and not going to
pragmatic at the same time
because it's easy to go wild
into grabbing opportunity.
And then it's also easy to go
wide into the ivory tower kind
of thing.
And and one of the things that I
took from your sessions back
then was that it's easy to get
it for people who get it, but
then it's very complicated for
people who don't get it.
And that's what I'm trying to do
with this whole thing about
bring building from the bottom
up.
Because, you know, for some
people it's enough to actually
read a post of mine or or listen
to one episode of mine or a
training of yours.
But then, you know, for some
other people, they actually want
to say, yeah, but what do I
actually have to tell the
bartender what?
Where do I actually map the
city?
How do I actually find the right
bars?
And they need to understand it
better.
And then there is a need for
actually deep diving into how do
we actually bring this to life.
And we make it easy to
understand for everyone, not
only for people who get it.
Yeah, I think I'm thinking back
to those days as well.
If you remember one of the big
breakthroughs we had was to
start talking to people about
certain types of behaviours and
a mindset and and almost like a
philosophical approach as
opposed to trying to outlogic
them, if that makes sense.
So if someone logically
disagrees with the process and
building brands from the bottom
up, then it's quite hard to
outlogic them on that.
But what you can do is talk
about, as I said, a set of
behaviours and a way of doing
things and and almost like a
philosophy and people are either
going to respond to that nicely
and want to do it and want to
get out into the trade and see
it all or not.
And I'm definitely in the camp
of people.
The reason I work in the alcohol
industry and have worked in the
alcohol industry is because I
love it.
It's because I love bars.
My first job was washing dishes
behind my local pub and and then
graduating to serving the old
boys as they'd come in and
memorizing what pint everybody
had to have and that would
that's a tough job and but I but
I loved that and so if if you
love the hospitality world,
that's why we don't work in
investment banking or work
selling toilet roll and all that
kind of stuff.
And so there's got to be an
emotional difference and an
emotional reason why we do that.
And part of that is to want to
sit at the bar and enjoy drinks
and enjoy these brands and
really take it all in.
I think was it Paul one one of
your other one of your other
guests talking about getting
insights from the bar rather
than from focus groups and I
that's it's I love that episode
because then you know what
you've got is so many different
types of people who are bringing
their expertise be it insights
or sales or whatever it is.
But but we're all sort of the
common ground if you like is the
philosophy of wanting to do this
in the right way and wanting to
sort of be respectful and
deferential to the trade.
And if that's your start point,
I think that's then it becomes,
I think to your point a little
bit more obvious or a little bit
more likely that you'll want to
do things in this as it were,
right more more patient way.
Because you respect the trade,
you respect the bartenders that
are driving it, you respect the
consumers that are coming in and
you understand that to earn to
earn their respect takes time,
takes consistency of the right
approach, takes a lot of
patience and it's not always
easy to do right.
And so that we're we're always
struggling with this compromise
or with this dichotomy if you
want to call it that whether
we're a startup or a or a or a
big brand of kind of cash flow
and and sales versus you know
the philosophy of doing the
right thing.
And I remember you and I within
the organization of SNB Miller
which was a great company always
sort of fighting that fight for
the philosophical approach of of
taking your time and building
brands for for long term
profitability and cultures.
I think it's a spectrum, don't
they?
Company cultures either get that
100% or they get it 2030% and so
within that you're you're either
fighting or or surfing a wave of
that culture, if that makes
sense.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Totally agree.
And and and The thing is that
it's very interesting what
you're saying because people
that interact with me on on
LinkedIn or Instagram or the
newsletter or the podcast and so
on, I'm, I'm getting more and
more every week now.
Notes from people, you know,
like that they love my podcast
or they love that, you know, and
then they're changing the the
way they look at things.
And that comes from people that
are starting a brand or people
that are working in big
companies.
And even within that those big
organizations.
You know, I've got people from
all sort of like huge companies
because you always find the
people that actually want to do
things in a different way and
sometimes they've got the
mandate to do that.
You know like we had because we
were the kind of like agile team
within within I I like to to
think myself was what team
although I'm a little bit less
fit than than those guys.
But I've never really worked in
a huge organization in a huge
local market.
Now I've always been the the
export guy or the OR the import
guy depending how you look at
it.
But but that's that's the
ultimate way of how to do those
those things in terms of brand
building and so on.
And and again like talking about
you know how do we make things
work is that I've been for
example in both roles like a
more central regional European
or global roles been then also
like having my own PNL as a
country manager.
And then sometimes I used to
think about you and about our
own discussions like thinking
like what the hell, you know,
like if these guys knew how to
really make it work for the
bottom line rather than
preaching.
And then I I became the preacher
and then I became the
challenger.
And and it it is that thin
balance between those things
that is not there's no right or
wrong.
There's no, like, you know, it
has to take five years.
It has to take two years.
It's just like you need to grasp
the opportunities.
You need to be pragmatic, but at
the same time you need to have a
certain direction that will not
jeopardize your brand for the
long term.
Because there's nothing wrong in
doing a small promo to get some,
you know, palettes out there.
As long as it doesn't basically
like, mess up your brand equity
in a way that then next month or
next year you're never going to
reach that budget.
Because, you know, you're
basically mainstreamized if
that's the term, your brand.
Yeah, gosh, I mean, there's a
lot to unpack even even within
what you've just said.
But I think one of the ways I, I
think about this is that in the
end even if you're a startup,
one man band type brand, so the
inevitable life cycle of a brand
is to hit the mainstream, IE to
hit a certain scale, a certain
market share, a full cross
section of society was buying
your brand.
And almost then by definition to
be fighting against sales on
promo, you know price erosion
and all those kind of good
things in in many ways that's
the definition of success,
right?
That's if if we start our brand,
we're hoping we get to that
point right and that that brings
its own challenges.
And we used to talk about this
kind of inevitable life cycle of
a brand.
Because if you hit that certain
point of scale and you're
selling to that whole cross
section of society, by
definition you have to
understand all the different
pressures that come on to that,
that come on to you at that
point.
Meaning lots of your volumes
sold to not necessarily your
target audience, not necessarily
sold in the right occasion, the
right segmentation or the right
kind of purist things that we
talk about.
And and as I've mentioned, a lot
of your volume probably sold on
on price promotion, especially
if you're in the UK and you're
going into you know the big
supermarkets here.
But one of the big sort of
discussions or or fights that I
would always have is that within
that set up, it's even more
important that you're talking as
it were to your kind of original
core target consumer and you're
giving them that brand and
product messaging that you did
at the start.
And then we used to draw all
these sort of clever graphics to
try and show that but and and I
always talk in analogies too
much as well.
But as a history geek, we had
this feudal system here during
the Middle Ages.
You had the king at the top and
your bishops and then and it
would kind of gradually go down
and societies like that.
And selling a brand to to, to
consumers is still like that,
right?
You start with your core people
at the top, and by definition,
as your brand spreads, you're
selling to other types of
people, right?
The key then is to hold on to
the concept of who your kind of
your kings and your bishops are
and who your target consumer is,
and to to be talking to them
even more engagingly in selling
your brand to them and telling
your brand narrative to those
people.
Meaning those target bars, the
best bartenders, all of those
kind of things.
You've got big work to do to
convince them that your brand,
albeit huge, is still great and
still well made and still has
all the credentials and
credibility that it had at the
start and then on to the point
that you were making beforehand.
I think what that means
internally as a team is that
huge empathy is required between
functions and between
geographies and all that kind of
stuff as well, right?
As you referenced, you know when
you sit in a global role, you
tend to sort of sit in your
lighthouse and be shining wisdom
on the the little people in the
markets.
But if that's all you're doing,
then that's not much use.
And so you have to be empathetic
to the challenges that people
are facing in their market and
understand the pressure on the
sales people going from bar to
bar.
At the same time, I would
strongly argue that you're kind
of your sales person in market X
needs to have some kind of
upward empathy back to what the
vision of the brand is all about
and what the what the point of
the brand is all about.
And those two things need to
meet sort of somewhere in the
middle.
At whatever stage of your brand
you're at, you can sort of lose
identity of your brand and you
end up with a slightly
schizophrenic brand and
situation going on or at least
not consistency from market to
market and from channel to
channel.
I agree, I agree.
And that's and you know when you
were talking like it made me
think back on on the I don't
know, I don't know if you
remember the days which in you
know the the, the last stage of
a premium brand was used to be
called expand and then it
changed into sustain because
like languaging is a thing now.
You know I read some books and
they talk about you know
languaging, the importance of
languaging, so creating new
words to describe new things
because otherwise or or
sometimes even old things now
because you need to make sense
of that and and even there like
within the organization if you
talk about expanding then you're
basically like kind of like
flooding the market and then it
being it means promos and
discounts and misbehaviors from
a brand perspective.
If you talk sustain is about how
do you sustain that growth
within those challengers that
are coming into the category
now.
And it all, it all goes back to
the KPIs because where I've seen
and where I see success is where
basically all these you know
from you know taking some
bishops, I love that analogy.
But within that or if you take
the kings ambitious within an
organization, it's all the
feudal system has got the same
KPIs and they've got the same
targets and you know it, it can
go back to the vision of the
brand because that's ultimately
what it is.
You know if those people are
incentivized into driving
distribution or into driving
rotation or they dry ire, they
incentivize on volume and
incentivize on value.
You know like there is there are
different ways of actually
ensuring from mindset or let's
let's call it mindset, let's
call it like a culture and and
and so on.
But ultimately is the same
thing.
It's like when people talk the
same thing within the
organization.
And I remember for example when
the old Miller brands UK which
is now Asahi UK, you know I
remember when I came there like
to learn how they were doing
things in London and in the UK.
And what I was impressed about
like back then was that the old
organization was speaking the
same language.
You know whether you spoil you
spoke to the key account guys in
the off trade people managing
wholesalers, marketing manager,
brand managers, trade marketing
managers, logistics people.
They were all thinking the same
way.
So it wasn't like I know those
are the brand guys or no you
know but trade marketing doesn't
get it and you know and off
trade is just doing promos.
You know it was really like all
together merging into a nice way
you know and this is the
ultimate thing.
So what would you say are you
know, you are also brand owner,
you're got your vermouth brand,
so you Ostara by the way, how do
you see what should have been
learning, teaching, experiencing
from big multinational
perspective now going and doing
your own thing?
How do you go about that and how
do you start with a brand in
your case?
Gosh.
Well, that's a really
interesting question.
One of the reasons I wanted to
do my own brand or * English
Hedger Moose available on the
website full time.
One of the reasons I wanted to
do that was actually for the
simplicity of being able to make
decisions for myself and
strangely enough listening to
what you're talking about about
SAB Miller UK or Asahi whatever
it's called these days.
It's it's harder in a big team
ecosystem like that to get
consistency of narrative of and
everyone pulling in the same
direction if that makes sense.
And and for me the most
successful organisations teams,
brands whatever you want to call
them are the ones where all
these people are talking to each
other and kind of and clearly in
this on the same page and that's
it's it's still baffles me the
number of times that that's not
happening where you know sales
are saying that the marketing
guys just coloring the the
pictures and the marketing guys
think the sales guys are thick
and like it still happens right.
And it breaks my heart a little
bit to see it still on on
LinkedIn because it's such a
silly way to think about it.
And so to come back to the my
own project, one of the reasons
I wanted to do it was just to
kind of have a little bit of a
binary sense of kind of if if I
can come up with a brand
narrative and A and A and a
recipe for a liquid and a
concept and a list and a that I
can just get on with doing it
right.
And you know, it's a one man
band thing.
So I don't have to answer to
anybody.
I don't have to discuss it with
anybody.
I don't have to sit in rooms and
go through stage gates of
innovation that take 24 months
and all of those kind of things.
And I, I sort of went from 1
extreme IEA big corporate
environment where you would go
through all those those
processes with innovation, for
example.
And you suffer from almost what
I would say, I'd call it sort of
decision paralysis, I suppose,
where these companies, sometimes
they don't do anything because
great ideas just get diluted and
diluted through various
functions of the business, I
suppose.
And so I wanted to just have a
go at doing that for myself.
Don't get me wrong, it's also
bloody hard.
And so without having kind of
the the ecosystem and the
support structures and the the
cash and the runway and all that
kind of stuff, it's difficult.
So yeah, for me personally, you
know somewhere in between those
two extremes is probably the
best way forward.
So you know the smaller teams
that I see now and this is
something that you and I have
talked about, you know smaller
teams where clarity on strategic
direction, clarity on brand
sales, commercial, KPIs, you
reference KPIs before and that
everyone understands the
ultimate goal tends to breed
teams that are all saying the
same thing and doing the same
thing albeit with their
different functions and tends to
you know there's a strong
correlation between those teams
I think and brands that are
performing well within their
categories, whatever that
category is.
I agree, I agree.
And what the challenge on that
is, is like from a founder
perspective that it's one of the
discussion that I think I was
having with with Paul Letko in
episode.
I can't remember the name of the
the number of the episode, but I
think it was like.
One of the early ones.
Right.
Well, yeah, I think it's like 30
where basically like I'm talking
about like how do you build
demand for your brands and how
does that evolve through time
now?
Because if you're a founder, you
know in the beginning you are
the 1 going and hits in the
streets, which with the bottle
in your backpack kind of thing.
And then it develops in a way
that then you're a guest on a
podcast.
So you're still building demand
for the brand, but you're not
actually doing the old thing you
used to do.
But you need to in my opinion
have done that in order to
understand what it takes.
Because what I what I struggle
with is when I when I see people
launching a brand and then
hiring A-Team right away.
So they are, they are the
founder, but they actually
almost like an investor rather
than a founder.
And then if you haven't got a
door on your face in a bar or if
you haven't had that
conversation like thanks but no
thanks kind of thing, then you
don't know what it means to to
actually do that.
So there is a journey to be able
to do that.
And then we discussed this many
times, you know, there is a
level of you know, OK the runway
that goes with it and the bottom
up way it's more like it,
there's no fix time.
I mean it's not that building
bottom up means it takes five
years or 10 years or 20 years.
It depends on your effort, on
your resources, on the people
you've got available, you people
you've managed to bring with you
on that journey.
And then you may go faster or
smaller depending on exogenous
conditions in the market as
well.
But it is the way forward is
just that you need to see you
know like how long, how long it
will take for you depending on
all those things that I listed
before.
Yeah, look, not that I want more
people to enter into the UK
drink space, because that's, you
know, competition I could do
without.
I think.
I think it's, it's a really
interesting exercise for anybody
who professes to be either a
consultant or a brand director
or whatever to have actually had
to have done it for themselves.
Because it's different, right?
In the years that we've known
each other, when I was banging
on about this act, slightly
academic exercise that we're
talking about of dealing with
opinion, leading influences and
building your brands carefully
and all that kind of stuff.
I it to a degree I have done it,
but in a corporate setting, one
of my big arguments and one of
my big, I suppose, itches that I
wanted to scratch was never
actually having done it.
Do you know what I mean?
So like I, you know, I started
as a salesman in fact selling
stellar going into 12 outlets a
day and you know, that's hard.
So I've had my my share of doors
shut in my face, to your point,
but not really for myself, not
in that kind of existential way
of like I have got to carry
these bottles around, I've got
to push post on the Instagram
post, which I pretty much shit
myself the first time I did
that, like for my own brand,
because it's different, right?
And it's so bizarre to go from a
world where, you know, you're
briefing multi $1,000,000
campaigns to fancy agencies and
all agency briefings and all
this kind of stuff in the
boardroom versus OK, I'm sitting
here with my phone and I've got
to actually write the caption
and check there's no typos in it
and check that the photos.
OK.
And I haven't got my finger in
the way of the camera or, you
know, any of those stupid
things.
And that's a great and amazing
exercise to go through because I
think to your point, what you
learn is, and it was interesting
listening to Paul's reference
episode that you referenced
before, how do you build demand
for something?
And is it probably a mistake
that I made?
But I don't, I don't know if
it's a mistake or not.
Actually, we can talk about it.
When I made my first batch of
Austara, there was no demand for
it because nobody had heard of
it.
So I started from zero in a
category that didn't exist.
English vermouth really, that I
felt on an academic level had
some potential and I felt I'd
made a really good product,
which I still think is a very
tasty product.
But the only demand that would
ever possibly exist for it would
be if I was able to generate
that demand either at the time
because it was during lockdown,
either on an online basis.
So I started selling via our
website that I made for myself
or by, you know, literally
cycling around and delivering
samples and delivering bottles
to friendly bartenders that I
knew if their bar was open.
So like you know that's all the
circumstantial stuff as you
spoke about.
And then what you have to
acknowledge is that that's
bloody hard.
That takes a really long time.
And if your cash strapped
bootstrap, whatever you want to
call it, you have to also be
patient with yourself.
And actually that's something
that I'm probably still working
on, just on a personal level, is
being patient with the project,
being patient with the fact that
it's not in every single bar in
the UK yet and it's not going to
be right.
So it's, you know, in terms of
KPIs, if you will, if you want
to call them that.
I I oddly find myself not living
to my own rules, I suppose,
because I haven't.
I haven't really forced myself
into KPIs because because some
of them, I'm not going to find
that useful right now, right.
My only KPI is try and get it in
the hands of the right
bartenders where I can try and
get people talking about it.
If someone wants to talk to me
about it, great.
If I can get more people tasting
it, I know that they like it and
just sort of keep doing that
really and hope that gets some
kind of traction.
And I need the help of Someone
Like You to kind of help me make
kind of formalize that and make
that better.
But I've in a way lived these
two extremes, one of leading a
big global brand in the gin
category and kind of that's it's
big, right.
And you're spending millions of
dollars and you're allocating
budget in loads of different
markets and you're able to order
brand ambassadors around and you
get to travel around and go to
all these amazing bars and what
not.
I personally got to a point
where I thought actually I've
got to be closer to reality than
this.
I've got to actually talk to
bartenders and not as the guy
who's got some big job title,
but who's, who's just Julian,
who's got a product to sell.
And I'd love to go through that
exercise.
That's kind of a personal
motivation, I suppose, for why I
wanted to do, to do my own
thing.
But at the same time, on a sort
of academic or hypothetical
basis, if you want to call it
that, I found myself really
wanting to stress test what you
and I talk about all the time
and see for myself whether I
felt that it worked and whether
it could be a thing.
And also, you know, as as I
consult people and as I work
with people and as and as you
and I talk to other brands,
etcetera, etcetera.
I want to have lived that.
I want to have, you know, stood
with a bartender and have him
taste my product and be super
nervous about whether he's going
to like it or not.
And then be delighted when he
does like it.
And and and just go through that
time and time and time again,
because that makes me more
credible, I think, when I start
to talk to people about things
like this.
And and that's very it's very
interesting I mean to to listen
to your topic and and it made it
made me think now that you know
because ultimately I don't have
my own brand yet what I'm
experiencing the the let's say
the closest thing to to having
my own brand is actually my my
own brand my my name you know
and the podcast for example.
And I see that very much, you
know, like and we we discussed
this as well, it's part part of
this chat is basically making
public our endless talks on over
the phone, usually on on Friday
mornings.
And often like the wise people,
they call it like you know you
have to you should be journaling
now and you know, like I'm
writing a journal and you know,
like writing things and that is
probably the one of the close
things to it, to a KPI kind of
thing.
Because sometimes I I, I have
this thing like this tool that
I'm using and I and I do the
hashtag quotes of the day and
and then I every once in a while
I go back to it and then I see
like a filter by hashtag.
And then I see all the things
that I wrote every single day.
And then I'm like OK this is
giving me the direction and and
then I go back to the yearly
objective that I set up for
myself.
And then I say oh actually you
know I I think I'm doing pretty
good on this one.
I'm doing really bad on this one
and and so on.
And going back to the to the
podcast, the thing that I was
saying is that you know it's it
takes time because I mean like
it's it's like yesterday Spotify
for podcasts releases released
the the yearly summary and I
launched in mid March and and it
was like well done, you've
published 1100 minutes of of
podcasts.
Wow.
And it made me think because for
me it's a weekly thing and it's
like well 1100 minutes.
And and you know, that is
obviously an effort from my
side, but it's also an effort
from the listener side.
And in a way my listeners are
are my drinkers, you know, you
know, like they are drinking the
podcast to an extent, you know.
So you need to convince people
to listen because I cannot call
my aunts and tell her, you know
please listen to the podcast,
you know, because it's very
technical.
I'm not talking about things
that are inviting for the
average person you know like you
must be from the industry and so
on.
But, and that's very similar to
how to be, how to build demand
for a for a drinks brands you
know going out there and so on
and it takes time and and and
then it's a matter of when you
manage to actually commit to it
and say OK with the podcast, I
want to show up every single
week no matter you know the
other day I was thinking like
should I skip Christmas week?
And I was like, no, because
there's people that will not
celebrate Christmas or we'll
have no family to be with.
I'll be listening to the
podcast.
Don't worry, I'll be listening
on yesterday I'll be I'll.
Be and and you know, ultimately
that's that's the thing because
it takes time.
You know, I'm out there every
single time, every networking
events.
Anytime I go and sit at the bar
and I have a person next to me,
I mention I have a podcast.
You know if I see that those
people are interested in drinks
and spirits and beers and you
know I mentioned that to them
and they may follow instantly or
they may follow me on Instagram
and then they go to the podcast
later on.
And this is the old, you know
things that is very similar to
being out there and meeting the
bars and so on.
The The trick with that is that
you need money to be able to do
that.
And to your point, like when you
were saying like being on
expenses, having two cocktails,
it's an expense, it's a
marketing expense.
I mean, people don't want to see
it like that because you're out
there like having nice drinks
and you enjoy yourself night.
I do enjoy myself, but it's also
I would like to be with my
daughter and with my wife some
nights in sitting on the sofa
watching a movie rather than
being in a bar.
But it's needed in order to
build the brand.
And this is what I feel many
founders don't get right because
they think that they can
outsource the unsexy stuff of
building a brand and and just
give it to all.
I'll hire a brand ambassador,
you know, I'll hire an agency.
I'll give it to a wholesaler to
sell.
You know, like, I don't have to
do it because I'm preparing the
liquid, I'm preparing the
packaging, I'm preparing the
cool stuff that is more like a
brainstorming kind of thing.
And then I don't need to go
outside when the storm is
hitting.
There's lots to unpack within
that.
It's it's it's interesting.
I've been getting more and more
involved in the in the sort of
private equity slash VC world
recently.
I suppose what you see often
within that is people, people
getting into our business let's
say or let's call it this
business maybe not quite with
the same motivations as what
you've just alluded to, right.
It's it's got kind of like a
money making exercise and that's
you know that's fine, it is what
it is.
But I think that as a personal
choice and what I prefer to see
is people wanting to get into
this business and this sector
because they have a genuine
passion for it and they want to
build something that's great.
And whether it's, you know, take
myself as an example, whether
they see an opportunity and they
want to make a liquid that's
great or they're particularly
passionate about gin or some
obscure mezcal from somewhere
other you, I think you've got to
love it and you've got to,
you've got to kind of feel that
you really want to be doing it.
And I think to your point on
building the podcast, you, you
know, you've got to personally,
and you have this, you've got to
have that kind of personal
tenacity and drive to want to do
it.
You know, when you're tired and
you're feeling a bit sick or
whatever, you're still going out
there and you're still talking
to people and you've got to have
that motivation.
And that's got to be a big
reason, you know why you want to
go out there and do it with my
Speaking for myself, there's no
greater feeling than sitting in
a bar that stocks your product,
your product that has decided to
pour that and to put it in the
cocktail or whatever.
And that's just, it's the best
feeling to sit there and have
achieved that.
And I'd argue that I think to
your, to your point, unless you
want to feel that feeling and
you're going to go and sit in
that bar and you're going to go
and enjoy it and enjoy the
journey, then like it's it's
less interesting just to kind of
try and make a load of money and
try and exit within three or
four years and make a million, a
few, you know a few £1,000,000,
right.
That's great if you manage to do
that but you've got to be in it
for the journey because the
likelihood is you won't get the
exit, you won't make hundreds of
millions of pounds because
you're not the rock or Kylie
Minogue or whatever, right.
And so you've got to enjoy that
process.
Otherwise what's the point?
And as a final thought I, I I
think that that thing that sort
of founder LED drive or the the
drive to build brands in a sort
of authentic and patient way.
I think that's just a
fundamental human truth.
So that happens to be we're
talking about a you know the
drinks category.
But I'm working with a clothing
company at the minute and the
concept is the same, right.
I found a LED clothing company
that wants to build love for
their products and build a
community and take their time to
do that and acknowledges that
they are not and don't want to
be Uniqlo or Gap or whatever.
But it's a philosophical and
love based approach to why they
want to do that.
And I think the more that we can
do that and the more that we can
produce an environment which
enables people like that to
flourish in whatever category.
And the more interesting our
alcohol category will be because
there's people out there with
brilliant ideas that want to you
know want to be able to make
interesting products.
And I think, I think we live
actually in very innovative
times for the alcohol sector
right now and in and indeed the
non alcohol sector as well
because people are made, they're
looking for interesting
flavours, they're looking to
jump on to different drinks
occasions and maybe hijack
people's rituals.
They're looking for interesting
non alcoholic, they're looking
at forgotten categories let's
say.
And the more that we can
encourage and enable individuals
or small teams to come out and
do that, the better.
But as you said does in the end
come back to having the budget
and the ability to do that.
So there's always that kind of
counter argument to that.
Final Absolutely.
And and I mean it it it, it
brings me back to what you were
saying before now because the
founder journey like the
bootstrapping kind of thing or
the funded kind of, you know,
there is always that balance not
the either or or and or
whatever, but but it's also
going back to what's your
objective because I hate that
word.
You know, like that.
You know, like when everybody's
like in in a meeting is like, so
what's your objective of this
meeting?
You know, like I hate that but
but ultimately that's the thing
we call it the goal, the
objective, the drive, the
passion, the whatever.
But is why are you doing it?
And you raise it really well.
I mean I had a shiver on my back
when you said it.
You know, it's like you have to
be there for the journey because
you know, the end may not be
there.
Imagine like I do this for my
daughter, you know, my daughter
when she's gonna be working.
She may be a ballet dancer and
she will say like my fair
drinks, like, you know, like
I've I've got nothing to do with
this company.
Or like it could be like that.
I want to sell it for a zillion
dollars which will never come
because no, nobody will ever buy
it.
So either I enjoy it now while
I'm building something for
myself 1st and then for the
others or I will be
disappointed, you know because
there will always be some you
know like disappointment at the
end of the of the journey.
So The thing is that it takes
time to build things.
I mean it's it's just like a
given and people are misled by
industry media, by people
telling stories that they don't
know about of people exiting
after one year, after two years,
after three years.
Those are just like strike of
luck.
You know, the ultimate thing is
that it takes time.
It may take 20 years as I
usually say and I and I stole
there from Paul again, but then
you know, it may take 10.
But The thing is that depending
what you're looking for, because
even being funded, it can be
that you basically got yourself
a job, then you know you're not
the founder anymore, because
then you need to report to the
investors, you need to report to
the people that gave you money.
So then you become the whatever
Managing Director, CEO,
President, whatever you want to
call it.
But you are not you as such
anymore.
Well, you become everything you
probably didn't want to be,
yeah?
And that's and that's the thing
that is like the and.
And again, like there's no right
or wrong.
There's no system like that.
Only bootstrappers are cool or
only managing directors of
funded brand are cool.
Or if you sell out, you are a
bad person because I thought you
wanted to do it for your own
thing and then in the end you
sold out.
You know it's not about that.
It's just about understanding
what it takes and what it will
bring you.
And the trick with that is that
our industry is a is a cool
industry.
That's the beauty and the curse
of it at the same time because
it drags people into the
business that are seeing only
the allure of the of that, you
know, rather than actually
seeing how hard it is to to get
there.
And by drags in people like from
investment banking, lawyers,
accountants, you know, like all
sort of people that are, you
know, it's cool to have a brand,
it's cool to have a gin brand,
it's cool to have a vermouth
brand, it's cool to have a
restaurant, a bar, a pizzeria or
whatever.
But it it takes time to build
those businesses because they
are businesses ultimately now.
And that is the tricky, the the
tricky one on convincing those
people that easy money are not,
are not a thing in this world.
No, I mean I I think I I
completely agree with you.
I think this this a little bit
of AUK centric viewpoint maybe
but you you you know you
mentioned gin.
There's so many gin brands in
the UK category here.
Far too many and usually there's
a kind of an interesting founder
story or you know there's
there's something in the I I
won't name them I'm I'm going to
try and hard try hard not to
make to name them.
But it's usually some guy who's
made a load of money somewhere
and who's run out of other
things to spend money on and
thinks it would be quite cool to
have his own gin brand.
So he can kind of take his pals
to a couple of bars and they can
all laugh about how he's got his
own gin, which is great and you
know good for them.
I think to flip it a little bit,
I always, I feel very sad
genuinely for founders who who
are not that guy, but who when
you ask them sort of what their
goal is, they start talking
about a, you know, a three-year
exit or a five year exit or, you
know, XX year exit.
Because the likelihood of that
happening, the likelihood of
someone coming along and going
here's £50 million or whatever
is so infinitesimally small that
although you read about it with
Step Smith or whatever, name a
brand, right, that's had a huge
exit to somewhere or you know,
it's it's, it's probably not
going to happen to you, right?
Probably not.
And so unless you're doing it
because you want to do it and
again to repeat myself and
because you want to live that
journey and then effectively see
where that takes you to.
And I can, I I know that you
won't like this part of it.
But I'm I'm a fan of setting a
vision which is to say, look I
want to have this business.
You know, sustainable and with
cash in the bank and with demand
and kind of they'd be tighter
than that.
But I I I don't want to see kind
of an end point to that vision.
In other words, I will get to
five years and I will sell.
I will exit this business
because it's not, it's probably
not going to happen or if it
does happen, it's probably not
going to happen in the terms
that you hope it will happen in.
And if it does happen, then what
like?
And if your main aim is to just
get out so you can then sit on
the beach for the subsequent 10
years, I promise you you'll be
bored after that anyway.
And so it's kind of like you've
got to do it because you enjoy
it and you want to do it.
And then if if that's the case,
then I think talking about these
kind of one one man band type
situations that we're talking
about, you're more likely to
follow the approach that you
always talk about and build from
the bottom up because you're
going to want to enjoy the fun
bit getting in the cool bars and
talking to the cool bartenders
and going to the cool trade
shows.
Than you are probably by
definition of wanting to go into
Tesco's and sell, you know, 50
pallets to 300 stores or
whatever because that's not
super fun.
Then you just becomes an
accounting exercise and to make
sure you're not getting rinsed
on your price and all that sort
of stuff.
And so I think you and I
probably have a natural sort of
direction towards these smaller
interesting founder LED spirits
or beer companies because
they're more likely to play that
the game that I've just alluded
to or they become massive very
quickly.
That's all for today.
Remember that is a two-part
episode, 39 and 40.
If you enjoyed it, please rate
it, comment and share it with
friends, and come back next week
for more insights about building
brands from the bottom up.