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From the subtleties of typography to the emotional impact of color, and the way everyday objects influence our lives, our guests share their unique perspectives on the power of design. Through candid interviews, we’ll get a closer look at the challenges they’ve faced, the breakthroughs they’ve had, and how design is not just about aesthetics, but about problem-solving, communication, and making an impact.
Join host Rae, as Type Speaks aims to inspire, inform, and showcase the voices behind the visuals.
This podcast is supported by WEGL 91.1 FM, Auburn University’s radio station. weglfm.com
00:00:02 [Speaker 1]
Welcome into Type Speaks.
00:00:04 [Speaker 1]
The show where I dive into the stories, struggles, and sparks of inspiration behind great design.
00:00:09 [Speaker 1]
I'm your host, Ray, and I'm gonna be pulling back the curtain on the creative process.
00:00:13 [Speaker 1]
But not just the work itself, but the people who make it happen.
00:00:17 [Speaker 1]
Each episode, I sit down with a different creative mind to uncover how they think and everything in between.
00:00:23 [Speaker 1]
So if you're curious about the why behind design and the stories of the people shaping our world one idea at a time, you're in the right
00:00:33 [Speaker 2]
place.
00:00:41 [Speaker 1]
Hello.
00:00:41 [Speaker 1]
Hello.
00:00:41 [Speaker 1]
And welcome into the first double digit episode of Type Speaks episode 10 of season two or episode 10 of every season, but one two.
00:00:52 [Speaker 1]
I am being wonderfully joined by the designer Zach Hobbs, who is a designer, artist, and a communication design director at IDEO, where you he has spent the last decade leading transformative projects across branding, culture, and innovation.
00:01:09 [Speaker 1]
His work also ranges from, rebranding humanitarian organizations to shaping fan experiences for sports teams and other hands on experimentation type work.
00:01:19 [Speaker 1]
I guess that didn't make much sense, but it'll make sense later.
00:01:22 [Speaker 1]
In addition to that, you've also exhibited work in The US and Europe, and you are a dedicated mentor, speaker, and you are a big fan of creativity, storytelling, and the value of handmade techniques and contemporary design.
00:01:36 [Speaker 1]
Dall that sound good?
00:01:37 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:01:37 [Speaker 2]
That's well said.
00:01:38 [Speaker 2]
It sound it sounds like I do a lot.
00:01:40 [Speaker 2]
It's a little bit more humble than that, but, yeah, that sounds perfect.
00:01:42 [Speaker 1]
I I will say most of the time when I I don't wanna, like there's a lot to describe someone on paper is different than speaking it because speaking it sounds a lot more hefty.
00:01:52 [Speaker 1]
So I try to, like, condense it without just sounding like a lip.
00:01:55 [Speaker 2]
No.
00:01:55 [Speaker 2]
It's kinda shocking to hear someone it's kinda it's kinda weird to hear someone read about all the stuff that you do, but it was great.
00:02:02 [Speaker 1]
It's to me, it reminds me.
00:02:04 [Speaker 1]
It reminds me in Game of Thrones when Daenerys gets all those titles.
00:02:09 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:09 [Speaker 1]
And she gets introduced every single time with, like, 20 different titles, and you're like, okay.
00:02:13 [Speaker 1]
That's
00:02:14 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:02:14 [Speaker 2]
It's a lot.
00:02:15 [Speaker 1]
It's a lot.
00:02:16 [Speaker 1]
But yeah.
00:02:17 [Speaker 1]
Thank you for joining me.
00:02:19 [Speaker 2]
You're very welcome.
00:02:20 [Speaker 1]
You're on the advisory board for my college, so I need to be I need to be very, I need to be my best behavior for this.
00:02:28 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I don't have any of those kinds of stuff.
00:02:30 [Speaker 2]
I'm one one thing you're, hopefully you will learn in this interview that I'm very anti authoritarian, so I don't, I don't want to be the boss.
00:02:37 [Speaker 2]
I'm on an advisory committee.
00:02:39 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:02:41 [Speaker 2]
But mostly because I love to your earlier point.
00:02:44 [Speaker 2]
I do really love creativity and I feel like, I feel like creativity has given me a really special life and I want other people to experience that.
00:02:54 [Speaker 2]
And, the university where you go is where I went and also was like a very, was very important to me in my journey as, like, everyone is like, Mio College was like a big thing, but, it was more than just college, to me.
00:03:08 [Speaker 2]
Really is like everything that I'm doing today started there.
00:03:12 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:03:12 [Speaker 2]
It's great it's great to, like, speak to you from that, radio station I used to listen to.
00:03:16 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:03:17 [Speaker 1]
Here at WEGL ninety one point one FM.
00:03:20 [Speaker 2]
That's right.
00:03:21 [Speaker 1]
It's awesome down here.
00:03:22 [Speaker 1]
So, yeah, going from that, I asked kind of everyone I talked to on the podcast.
00:03:26 [Speaker 1]
I wanna kind of get into really how you kinda first discovered design as a path or what drew you into it.
00:03:33 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:03:35 [Speaker 2]
So let's just start with origin.
00:03:37 [Speaker 2]
I grew up I grew up in Alabama.
00:03:39 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:03:40 [Speaker 2]
Born in the late seventies.
00:03:42 [Speaker 2]
I'm quite old now.
00:03:44 [Speaker 2]
And, my mother was a school teacher and my father was a coach.
00:03:48 [Speaker 2]
And in Alabama, you go to church and you know, you love, you love Jesus, you love Jesus, you play sports, and you try to get good grades.
00:03:56 [Speaker 2]
And that realistically was like sort of my life.
00:03:59 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:03:59 [Speaker 2]
I don't know.
00:04:00 [Speaker 2]
Like, I I would spend time in my mother's, hallways.
00:04:04 [Speaker 2]
Like, I would go from the elementary school to high school.
00:04:07 [Speaker 2]
And, as a young person, like looking at the things that kids were, you know, this might sound weird, but you know, I was seeing Iron Maiden t shirts.
00:04:16 [Speaker 2]
Yeah, I was seeing early Metallica t shirts.
00:04:21 [Speaker 2]
And, I would see kids opening their lockers and it would, you know, I would just see like wildness of like a high school locker and started to just kind of connect like these feelings that were happening inside me.
00:04:33 [Speaker 2]
Like, Oh, that t shirt makes me kind of scared and you're not really trying to unpack it.
00:04:38 [Speaker 2]
You know, when you're, when you're 10, you're not really trying to unpack, like, why am I scared?
00:04:42 [Speaker 2]
But you're like, wow, that t shirt like, look like there's like power in it.
00:04:45 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:04:46 [Speaker 2]
And, I kind of have phases in my youth from, you know, skateboarding, which, you know, getting an introduction to skateboard graphics and Thrasher magazine Yeah.
00:04:55 [Speaker 2]
Was a kernel.
00:04:56 [Speaker 2]
Getting into comic books was another kernel sort of like like, I was really just interested in stuff.
00:05:04 [Speaker 2]
And, when I was about 12 or 13, punk and punk culture kind of entered into my life.
00:05:11 [Speaker 2]
And I was really into punk for a few reasons.
00:05:14 [Speaker 2]
Like, I've really loved it.
00:05:15 [Speaker 2]
I think it is the best music.
00:05:17 [Speaker 2]
All eras of punk from, like, the late sixties all the way to now.
00:05:21 [Speaker 2]
I think there's, like, an idea and an ethos from punk and, like, sort of a way of living.
00:05:27 [Speaker 2]
And, like, there's also a graphic component to this music and it's both in the way people dress.
00:05:34 [Speaker 2]
But it's also like the visual art was really important.
00:05:38 [Speaker 2]
And there's something about like in the nineties, I was reading, you know, like I was getting my CDs and had some cassettes.
00:05:45 [Speaker 2]
Like the vinyl was like kind of out in the 1990s.
00:05:50 [Speaker 2]
But as I like looked and read lyrics, this music was like really inspiring me and I was like trying to just learn more.
00:05:56 [Speaker 2]
So I was, I would read everything in the lyric book and I would notice, like, art direction by so and so or graphic design by Joy Aoki, a designer who worked for a record label I used to really love as a kid.
00:06:11 [Speaker 2]
And I I assume I I suppose I just started to really connect that, like, there's someone that does the music, and then there's just the other stuff.
00:06:20 [Speaker 2]
And then I also was just a naturally creative person.
00:06:24 [Speaker 2]
As a young person, my my first memory is, like, drawing in church.
00:06:29 [Speaker 2]
The back of But when you're when The Yeah.
00:06:31 [Speaker 1]
Exactly.
00:06:31 [Speaker 1]
Package.
00:06:32 [Speaker 2]
My mother, like, handing a kid who's got a little too much energy, something to sort of calm him down.
00:06:37 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:06:39 [Speaker 2]
But when you're creative and you come from Alabama, everyone's like, oh, you should be a graphic designer or an architect.
00:06:45 [Speaker 2]
Like everyone's trying to tell you you're a creative kid.
00:06:49 [Speaker 2]
Don't you dare don't become an artist.
00:06:50 [Speaker 2]
Don't don't go in any kind of direction that is scary.
00:06:53 [Speaker 2]
Like here are two jobs that we know of that you could get.
00:06:56 [Speaker 2]
And as an anti authoritarian, even though I didn't really realize it, I was like, no, I don't I'm not gonna follow whatever path you tell me to.
00:07:03 [Speaker 2]
I'm Yeah.
00:07:03 [Speaker 2]
I like to I like to draw and make art, but I, you know, it it I was in my third year actually at Auburn University when I finally connected all the pieces from, like, loving music, understanding that someone actually makes the visual, you know, for a music release or a rock poster and music and bands.
00:07:23 [Speaker 2]
I was like, well, I have nothing left to lose other than maybe I should actually try to invest myself in the world.
00:07:29 [Speaker 2]
So kind of, like, reluctantly got into design, but was very inspired by design as long as I can kinda remember.
00:07:36 [Speaker 1]
I've had this discussion with others where some people have this this idea that graphic design is a safer artist direction.
00:07:43 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:07:44 [Speaker 1]
And it's somewhat not true and somewhat true in a in a little bit of a
00:07:47 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I think it's I think it sort of depends on the person how you comport yourself to living in a structure as a an art minded individual.
00:07:58 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:07:59 [Speaker 2]
And, I think had my had I been born somewhere else to a different set of parents who might have been a little bit more artistic minded, you know, or like kind of creativity, you know, in tune with creativity, I think I might have actually taken an artistic, a purely artistic path, But that was presented as like the wrong thing, you know?
00:08:20 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:08:21 [Speaker 2]
And I don't I don't I don't think I think I should say this because there are there's some some folks out there who are listening to this who do feel like artists trying to figure out how to make a buck.
00:08:31 [Speaker 2]
And if you can figure it out, design can be a great Yeah.
00:08:34 [Speaker 2]
Avenue for you.
00:08:35 [Speaker 2]
But the mindset between making art and making design, they're just different, you know?
00:08:39 [Speaker 2]
So you need a little bit of this for that.
00:08:41 [Speaker 2]
And I would argue it helps for an artist to have a little bit of a designer inside.
00:08:45 [Speaker 2]
But the mindsets and the modes, I think, are really unique and actually separate.
00:08:49 [Speaker 2]
So Yeah.
00:08:50 [Speaker 2]
It it take it takes work to be an artist who just decides to be a designer.
00:08:54 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:08:54 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:08:56 [Speaker 1]
I I I don't think
00:08:56 [Speaker 2]
it's an easy pathway.
00:08:58 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:08:58 [Speaker 1]
It's like I went into my I went into design and wanted to do, like, illustration work and then realized that that took all of the except all the in me when I would do that.
00:09:07 [Speaker 1]
So I was like, I need to reevaluate this.
00:09:10 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:09:11 [Speaker 1]
And I found myself, like, loving design as a process and playing around with that and just doing drawing on the side for fun.
00:09:19 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:20 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:20 [Speaker 1]
I think I I think a lot of people try to pigeonhole themselves.
00:09:23 [Speaker 1]
They're like, I like drawing.
00:09:24 [Speaker 1]
I have to do this.
00:09:26 [Speaker 1]
And then it's like, no.
00:09:27 [Speaker 1]
You just like drawing.
00:09:28 [Speaker 1]
You just like making art.
00:09:30 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:09:31 [Speaker 2]
And I I I really like I mean, I do think it helps to have a way to make money that Yeah.
00:09:37 [Speaker 2]
You know, you could as a person.
00:09:38 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:09:38 [Speaker 2]
Like, in and I I talk a lot about design to my colleagues who are like, I would consider them my peers.
00:09:45 [Speaker 2]
I also talk a lot to students and to people at the beginnings of their career.
00:09:51 [Speaker 2]
And I don't know, like, I, I think one thing that I try to impart is that this thing that we do of design or creativity is for a lot of us, it, like, actually pulls from the heart and pulls from things that are sort of deep inside you, you know, and that can be kind of challenging when you're making your money in, you know, the heart or your emotion there.
00:10:09 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:10:11 [Speaker 2]
And, I don't know that an accountant is all that emotional about their work.
00:10:15 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:10:16 [Speaker 2]
But like, as a designer, like, personally, I'm very emotionally sort of invested in my work.
00:10:20 [Speaker 2]
And you have to you have to figure out how to, you know, find the balance to your point of, like, what is the piece of the process that I really love?
00:10:28 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:10:28 [Speaker 2]
You know, and invest in that in the right ways.
00:10:31 [Speaker 1]
I had wanted to talk about kind of your process.
00:10:34 [Speaker 1]
I just in general, really like the the style of that.
00:10:37 [Speaker 1]
People describe your work as, like, experimental, DIY, you know, all this stuff, but you talked earlier about how that kind of found that style found your way what your way into, like, your vernacular in your mind through music.
00:10:48 [Speaker 1]
When was that moment where you're like you made your first poster that looked like that, and you're like, this is
00:10:53 [Speaker 2]
cool.
00:10:53 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:10:54 [Speaker 2]
You know, it never it never really never really starts like that.
00:10:58 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:10:58 [Speaker 1]
I know.
00:10:59 [Speaker 2]
That's what that's that's one thing that we yeah.
00:11:01 [Speaker 2]
But first of all, thank you, for speaking so positively about my work.
00:11:05 [Speaker 2]
I I really, like, deeply appreciate that.
00:11:08 [Speaker 2]
It means a lot because, I try to use my hands as much as possible work.
00:11:12 [Speaker 2]
And in the year 2025, when we're recording this
00:11:16 [Speaker 1]
Yes.
00:11:17 [Speaker 2]
You know, you can legitimately, like, you can almost design now without using your hands.
00:11:22 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:11:23 [Speaker 2]
I mean, yes.
00:11:23 [Speaker 2]
You might you click your keyboard.
00:11:25 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:11:26 [Speaker 2]
You click your mouse or whatever.
00:11:27 [Speaker 2]
But, like, the tools my point is the tools.
00:11:30 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:11:30 [Speaker 2]
Most of them are digital tools.
00:11:32 [Speaker 2]
All of them really are digital tools.
00:11:33 [Speaker 2]
They're really they're really good.
00:11:35 [Speaker 2]
They're, they're powerful.
00:11:37 [Speaker 2]
So, you know, if we were to take a time machine back to the 1960s and look at how something was designed and printed, it would be, you know, a completely different world than ours.
00:11:47 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:11:48 [Speaker 2]
And I, I suppose, even though when I was getting my education in design, I was working on the MacBook.
00:11:54 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:11:55 [Speaker 2]
And I was working in the, you know, I was scanning things and taking them into the computer.
00:12:00 [Speaker 2]
I think that, history, like my roots being from punk culture, like there's just a part of me that was so attracted to that aesthetic.
00:12:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:12:10 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:12:10 [Speaker 2]
And like, I maybe maybe we'll make sure that I get back to process because I wanna I wanna talk process, but like, let's start in, like, what influences that process.
00:12:21 [Speaker 2]
Because I mentioned, like, looking at heavy metal t shirts and, like, what the weird high schoolers were wearing, but but the punk aesthetic is a little bit different than the Iron Maiden Yes.
00:12:30 [Speaker 2]
Metallica aesthetic.
00:12:30 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:12:31 [Speaker 2]
It's a lot more to your point.
00:12:32 [Speaker 2]
It's like collage based.
00:12:34 [Speaker 2]
It's things that look like they have been kind of deteriorated.
00:12:39 [Speaker 2]
It's like imagery that's almost decaying or things that look like, you know, I threw it through a fax machine.
00:12:45 [Speaker 2]
And then I Xeroxed it times and truly tried to like, change the image and give it kind of like a different patina.
00:12:53 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:12:53 [Speaker 2]
It gives the image a different texture.
00:12:55 [Speaker 2]
And I've just always really been inspired by that.
00:12:58 [Speaker 2]
And then I actually listed like some influences that I would love just so most people want to like check stuff out.
00:13:04 [Speaker 2]
But there's a very famous artist named Raymond Pettibone and his career, started, his brother was in this band called Black Flag.
00:13:14 [Speaker 2]
His brother's name is
00:13:15 [Speaker 1]
Greg Ginn.
00:13:15 [Speaker 1]
Little known punk band.
00:13:17 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:13:17 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:13:17 [Speaker 2]
Little known punk, but like, you know, Greg Ginn is the guitar player for Black Flag.
00:13:22 [Speaker 2]
He has this record label called SST Records, and his brother is this guy who is drawing all these weird sort of, like, almost like comic book illustrations, but the, there was a darkness to all of his illustrations.
00:13:36 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:13:37 [Speaker 2]
And, and Greg Ginn is like, Hey, could we use that image for our record cover?
00:13:41 [Speaker 2]
Can we use that image for our posters?
00:13:43 [Speaker 2]
Hey, could we take another drawing for like our new band, you know, that we just signed the minutemen?
00:13:47 [Speaker 2]
So, so his work, it just blows my mind because it is, it is unique and it's illustrative and it's illustrative, aesthetics, but also there is like kind of a darkness that's underneath everything.
00:13:59 [Speaker 2]
And he would like write little phrases on his drawings and the phrases are even more bizarre than the drawing and started to create a world of like mystery.
00:14:08 [Speaker 2]
I also really love this record label called Discord Records from Washington DC.
00:14:15 [Speaker 2]
Some of like what you would consider, like, the beginnings of American hardcore punk.
00:14:20 [Speaker 2]
It it sort of starts in a little bit in the West Coast, a little bit in Washington, DC, and New York City.
00:14:26 [Speaker 2]
But this record label, DC, Discord, there was this young man named Jeff, Jeff Nelson.
00:14:32 [Speaker 2]
And he designed all of these album covers for all of these bands when it's essentially like a teenage art director for a record label and everything that he made.
00:14:41 [Speaker 2]
Again, it had like a real personality and the use of photography.
00:14:47 [Speaker 2]
And he would take, like, old type sources and, like, cut out letters, right, to, like, make, band logos.
00:14:55 [Speaker 2]
I started to just notice, like, there's just, like, two really quick examples, but, like, I just started to notice, like, hey, the designs from this stuff, the artwork, it looks unique and it looks different.
00:15:03 [Speaker 2]
And my goal really started to become, as I got into design, like, how can my work not look like that, but how can it speak in its own unique voice and come and convey some of those qualities?
00:15:15 [Speaker 2]
So, like, can my can my work have a darkness to it when I want it to have a darkness?
00:15:20 [Speaker 2]
Can my work have a bit of mystery to it?
00:15:23 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:15:24 [Speaker 2]
Can my work have an a sort of feeling out of time where you can't say, oh, that was a design from the nineteen nineties or that was a design from 2010.
00:15:35 [Speaker 2]
Like, there's a so something that happens in design where there are just eras.
00:15:38 [Speaker 2]
And in a lot of cases, you can look at something and say, okay, that looks like 1960 sort of mid century design.
00:15:44 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:15:45 [Speaker 2]
But I just started to desire a unique quality for my work.
00:15:49 [Speaker 2]
And while, I think that one thing that I've done really well over my career is to be a really good sponge.
00:15:56 [Speaker 2]
Like, I think my goal is to, like, look at a technique, study a technique.
00:16:00 [Speaker 2]
And rather than trying to make a replica of that, how can I, like, pull that into my process and execute something that is that is unique, and hopefully, like, pushes this kind of historical conversation of like culture and ideas?
00:16:15 [Speaker 2]
Like how can I push that forward visually?
00:16:18 [Speaker 2]
And I know that that might sound ridiculous and abstract, but but being a designer and being able to put things into the world, like especially paper goods or records or or or things that are sort of physical, I think that comes with a little bit of a responsibility.
00:16:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:16:34 [Speaker 2]
And my response my personal responsibility is to make stuff that makes me feel as cool than it's not listened to.
00:16:39 [Speaker 2]
So I I wanna make stuff that's rad.
00:16:41 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:16:42 [Speaker 1]
No.
00:16:43 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:16:44 [Speaker 1]
I like I like the word rad a lot.
00:16:46 [Speaker 2]
I mean, well, you know, I'm a I'm a Simpson.
00:16:51 [Speaker 2]
What what did I miss?
00:16:52 [Speaker 2]
What are we we were supposed to talk about process, and I got long winded and started talking about, like, the inspiration.
00:16:56 [Speaker 2]
I
00:16:56 [Speaker 1]
think inspirations lead into the process because you can't have you can't have the process without the inspirations behind it.
00:17:02 [Speaker 1]
But for process, like, you talk about, like, the use of analog, which I love because I've learned that I I really just really love the analog process more than digital processes.
00:17:13 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:13 [Speaker 1]
Because I feel like it's it's tangible.
00:17:14 [Speaker 1]
It's in my hands, and I like that.
00:17:16 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:17:17 [Speaker 1]
If I do work only on the computer, it that's only where it exists and some vague cloud based storage system.
00:17:24 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:17:24 [Speaker 1]
But I like things that are in my hands.
00:17:25 [Speaker 1]
So I kinda wanted to talk about that of, like, the process behind, like, where do you almost, like, start?
00:17:30 [Speaker 1]
Which I know that there's not always a a, like, the same starting point every time.
00:17:33 [Speaker 1]
Where do you find that, like, starting point for projects?
00:17:36 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:17:36 [Speaker 2]
So that's such such a good question.
00:17:39 [Speaker 2]
I also wanna wanna, like, plus one.
00:17:41 [Speaker 2]
Working with your hands is so good.
00:17:43 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:17:43 [Speaker 2]
And I I don't wanna be like, here's like an old guy talking about peace and love, like, you know, finding yourself.
00:17:50 [Speaker 2]
But I I gotta tell you, we're in a world where everything is digital.
00:17:53 [Speaker 2]
And I just have a feeling that it, like, wears on us in unique ways that human beings are just, are still trying to like, get their heads around.
00:18:02 [Speaker 2]
Like living and existing in a world where the internet has like, it's like actually become real life.
00:18:07 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:18:07 [Speaker 2]
The internet is no longer like, oh, that's on the internet.
00:18:09 [Speaker 2]
No, like the internet actually shapes beliefs, culture use, you know, it's like really kind of important stuff.
00:18:16 [Speaker 2]
So my love of using the hands is not purely a rejection of the digital world.
00:18:22 [Speaker 2]
However, it is a fence.
00:18:25 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:18:25 [Speaker 2]
It is some way it is some way to kind of wall off or separate myself from things that are purely digital.
00:18:33 [Speaker 2]
And it's also a good use of, like, if I'm drawing for twenty minutes, it's a really good use of twenty minutes where I'm not scrolling, I'm not being made angry by something on the Internet, I'm not looking back, I'm not reading an email.
00:18:46 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:18:46 [Speaker 2]
I'm not even stuck in Illustrator or Figma or Photoshop.
00:18:50 [Speaker 2]
I'm just using my hands and either listening to music or sitting with my thoughts, you know?
00:18:55 [Speaker 2]
And I I argue that's a really valuable use of time.
00:18:58 [Speaker 2]
Okay?
00:18:59 [Speaker 2]
Also, one of the reasons that I use handmade processes is because everyone uses digital processes.
00:19:07 [Speaker 2]
And I know the brushes on the iPad are great.
00:19:10 [Speaker 2]
And I know that you can make some, like, really badass, you know, work Yeah.
00:19:14 [Speaker 2]
Use using digital tools.
00:19:15 [Speaker 2]
And I'm not I'm not sitting here in some world where I don't use digital tools.
00:19:19 [Speaker 2]
Like, literally, almost everything I make, unless it's pure art, has a digital component because it's been scanned and it you know, it needs to be pulled into Illustrator, etcetera.
00:19:31 [Speaker 2]
So I'm not I'm not mister light hater, but I do want again, I want my work to you to look unique.
00:19:36 [Speaker 2]
And I feel like if I can put my actual fingers on the work, like it no.
00:19:41 [Speaker 2]
My fingerprints aren't on the work and my DNA is not in it.
00:19:44 [Speaker 2]
But my my brushstroke is unique to me.
00:19:47 [Speaker 2]
Just Ray, your brushstroke is your unique brushstroke.
00:19:50 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:19:51 [Speaker 2]
And there's a reason that, you know, artists work looks different because they have their, like, it has like unique soul and unique personality and unique aesthetic qualities.
00:20:04 [Speaker 2]
And, I guess I just really, really wanted my work to look different.
00:20:07 [Speaker 2]
So that's one of the reasons that I love using handmade processes, but, my process starts in a variety of ways, but it's always using my hands, you know, like I, I either start trying to sketch the idea or I just start making things.
00:20:24 [Speaker 2]
And a lot of, a lot of designers, some of us sort of see the album cover or we see the line in our heads.
00:20:33 [Speaker 2]
I don't I sometimes see a thing in my head, but oftentimes I don't I can.
00:20:38 [Speaker 2]
It's almost like when you wake up and you hadn't put your contact lenses in or or you're like, got your eyes dilated and like, you can't really focus on the thing.
00:20:46 [Speaker 2]
You know, like, there's like a Mirage, or there's like a glimpse of something.
00:20:49 [Speaker 2]
And usually process for me use is about how can I get how can I get things out of my brain onto paper, and then do a lot of that?
00:21:00 [Speaker 2]
So like actually what, what I, we call it in my job at IDEA, we call it built to think, which is essentially saying like, sometimes you don't have to just think everything out.
00:21:08 [Speaker 2]
Let's actually start to build some stuff and allow the building of the thing, the prototyping of the thing to become the thinking, it informs the thinking.
00:21:18 [Speaker 2]
And because we're, we admit to ourselves that we are not trying to make the final thing.
00:21:22 [Speaker 2]
We're just making a version of it.
00:21:24 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:21:25 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:21:26 [Speaker 2]
So so let's say, you know, I'm making a rock poster because I make a lot of rock posters, and I love to and write the typography on the rock poster.
00:21:35 [Speaker 2]
So if I know what the bands are for the poster, I'll just start writing the band name over and over and over and over again.
00:21:41 [Speaker 2]
And I will, I will move between a Sharpie to a, to a brush pen, you know, to a pencil, to a different kind of pencil.
00:21:50 [Speaker 2]
And I'll just use different tools to kind of like get the, the ideas out.
00:21:55 [Speaker 2]
And, and then it's just a matter of like making until I can't make any more.
00:22:01 [Speaker 2]
And, maybe maybe I need an image and then it's either, am I going to illustrate this?
00:22:07 [Speaker 2]
Because I, I do feel like I have, like, I cannot draw realistically, but like I can draw some weird stuff pretty good.
00:22:15 [Speaker 2]
Or, you know, to your point about using a scanner or a Xerox machine, it's like, do I want to open up my magazines, find a cool image and drag it across the scanner to see if I can make a warped
00:22:25 [Speaker 1]
yeah,
00:22:26 [Speaker 2]
you know, image.
00:22:27 [Speaker 2]
So it really is a, it's a mixture of like exploration of different varieties and all of that, like kind of a what I've made to say, okay, what is like, what kind of goes on the, the wall of like the good stuff?
00:22:43 [Speaker 2]
You know, I, because this is not a visual podcast, like I feel like it would be kind of ridiculous, but like behind me in this office, I just have like stacks of paper on the ground that are, I'm like putting them on the ground as I make sketches because I don't in this space, I don't have, my, all my walls are covered.
00:23:01 [Speaker 2]
So I need, like, I essentially need a bulletin board where I can look at all the images and say, okay, there's some potential here.
00:23:09 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:23:09 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:23:09 [Speaker 2]
And then it's this kind of a matter of trying stuff out and trying to be loose with it and trying to if I have if, again, if I have the idea in my head, I'm trying to best create that.
00:23:22 [Speaker 2]
But most of the time, I'm just trying to make cool stuff that works with the brief and works with the vibe and the work will talk to you.
00:23:29 [Speaker 2]
The work will say I'm the good stuff.
00:23:31 [Speaker 2]
This is the direction to go in.
00:23:33 [Speaker 2]
I hope that makes sense.
00:23:34 [Speaker 2]
You know, I've been doing, I've been doing this a long time.
00:23:36 [Speaker 2]
It's like, it's pretty challenge.
00:23:38 [Speaker 2]
It's like, it was really it was really hard to figure all this out.
00:23:41 [Speaker 2]
But, like, the gist of it is I get inspired.
00:23:44 [Speaker 2]
I make a thousand things.
00:23:46 [Speaker 2]
I pick the one or two good things from that thousand, and then I try to turn that into the final.
00:23:50 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:23:50 [Speaker 1]
That made sense to me at least.
00:23:53 [Speaker 1]
I'm someone that I am very much invested in just, like, trying things out just because Yeah.
00:23:58 [Speaker 1]
I can try them out.
00:23:59 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:23:59 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:24:00 [Speaker 1]
I get free printing for my university, so I use that, more than they probably want me to, but they gave it to me.
00:24:07 [Speaker 1]
So I get to print out and scan and
00:24:09 [Speaker 2]
You, I mean, you pay for it actually.
00:24:10 [Speaker 2]
So, like, you should you've already paid for it.
00:24:12 [Speaker 2]
So you should get
00:24:13 [Speaker 1]
This is true.
00:24:13 [Speaker 1]
Call it free printing, but it's just, it's just tuition printing.
00:24:17 [Speaker 2]
Listen.
00:24:17 [Speaker 2]
If you if you need toilet paper, get it from one of the buildings at campus.
00:24:22 [Speaker 2]
Like, y'all have to figure out how to, like, spend less money because you've spent a lot of money already on your college.
00:24:27 [Speaker 2]
You gotta get as much as you can for free.
00:24:29 [Speaker 1]
Absolute I listen.
00:24:30 [Speaker 1]
I tell freshmen coming in to the radio station, listen.
00:24:33 [Speaker 1]
Go to that job fair.
00:24:34 [Speaker 1]
I know you don't want a job right now, but you're gonna get a thousand different free free meals, coupons, and things.
00:24:41 [Speaker 1]
Just do it now.
00:24:42 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:24:43 [Speaker 2]
That's good advice.
00:24:45 [Speaker 1]
Just do it while you can, because now when you're a senior and you go there, they actually wanna give you a job.
00:24:49 [Speaker 1]
Talking about just I have a professor, professor Mario.
00:24:52 [Speaker 1]
Shout out him.
00:24:52 [Speaker 1]
He was on earlier in the first season one.
00:24:54 [Speaker 1]
He kind of talks about design as as play sometimes or playing as design
00:24:59 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:24:59 [Speaker 1]
Which
00:25:00 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:25:00 [Speaker 2]
Is
00:25:00 [Speaker 1]
something that I love to talk to talk about.
00:25:02 [Speaker 1]
I work with children over the summer in art, and it changed my entire mindset because working with children makes you realize that they just do things because they can.
00:25:12 [Speaker 1]
Looks fun.
00:25:14 [Speaker 1]
And I think sometimes we lose that in in when kind of working, we have to work for money.
00:25:19 [Speaker 1]
It's how life works.
00:25:20 [Speaker 1]
But sometimes we almost lose that fun that we used to have when using the creative process.
00:25:25 [Speaker 1]
Talking about that and just being able to have have fun with the process, something that I I love to hear about.
00:25:31 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:25:31 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I think play is the perfect word for it.
00:25:34 [Speaker 2]
You know, it it's it's also it's really important that I don't know.
00:25:38 [Speaker 2]
I, I, I feel like as soon as I started to talk about play, I was like, oh, make sure that you say something about taking it seriously, which is like, not really what I believe in a sense that, like, I believe in delivering for the client, whoever the client is.
00:25:52 [Speaker 2]
Now my clients differ from, like, the day job clients are really, really big
00:25:56 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:25:56 [Speaker 2]
Corporations with a with a lot of money.
00:25:58 [Speaker 2]
And then the nighttime clients oftentimes are are, you know, punk bands with very limited resources.
00:26:05 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:26:05 [Speaker 2]
However, however, for me, I need to deliver for both of those clients no matter like, I don't really care.
00:26:10 [Speaker 2]
Like, I just have a, I just believe in doing things in a soulful, ethical way.
00:26:16 [Speaker 2]
It's not really about being serious, but it is about like, understanding that, like, it is play and I think it really helps when you're having fun.
00:26:24 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:26:24 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I, I gotta be real, like I'm in this job because I need to be creative.
00:26:29 [Speaker 2]
And it's like really fun for me.
00:26:31 [Speaker 2]
You know, it's like, it's like, it's also it's really serious because like I said, my emotions get mixed up in it because I'm trying to like, I'm trying to make something red, you know?
00:26:41 [Speaker 2]
But play is a really good word.
00:26:42 [Speaker 2]
And when I talk about exploring ideas, I think the the times of my life where I am making the work that is the coolest is when I am in the most playful mindset.
00:26:52 [Speaker 2]
And it's to your point about just trying things, you know?
00:26:56 [Speaker 2]
I think that's one of the that's one of the skills that any designer can, like, have.
00:27:00 [Speaker 2]
And for a young designer, like trying to build that like playful, energetic, excuse me, just, just, I'm just trying to try stuff out and I'm going to throw stuff at the wall and I'm going to have to be okay.
00:27:11 [Speaker 2]
That sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work.
00:27:14 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:27:14 [Speaker 2]
And as a younger designer, I, I gripped everything and white knuckled it because I was obsessed with it being great.
00:27:22 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:27:23 [Speaker 2]
And when you're becoming a designer, it's almost like being a baby when all of your, your like hand fingers aren't quite working.
00:27:31 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:27:31 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:27:32 [Speaker 2]
Like you you're trying to develop muscles and you don't really understand the muscles yet.
00:27:37 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:27:37 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I really felt like when I was like, if I look back at my early design career, I was just obsessed with it being like, good.
00:27:44 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:27:44 [Speaker 2]
And I think I made some good things because I was, you know, I was, I was essentially killing myself and like working two jobs, working a day job and then a nighttime job.
00:27:55 [Speaker 2]
But through all of that, it's in my moments where I like relaxed and I was purely expressive mode.
00:28:02 [Speaker 2]
And I was in that, like, let's just try this weird piece over here.
00:28:06 [Speaker 2]
You know, one of the things I love now, now that, I've got some years under my belt, I'm like, oh, take this thing over here and this thing over here, they don't look like they belong together and let's mash them up and see how it makes us feel.
00:28:17 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:28:18 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:28:18 [Speaker 2]
It's like, you just, it's actually now it's a challenge to continue to like explore things that I haven't explored, which is what keeps me super inspired.
00:28:28 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:28:29 [Speaker 2]
I've I I'm 46.
00:28:31 [Speaker 2]
I've been designing for, gosh, I guess, like, twenty years or more, like, more than twenty years now.
00:28:37 [Speaker 2]
And it's the first time where I'm like, oh, I actually have some confidence about what the heck what the heck I'm doing.
00:28:42 [Speaker 2]
And it's like, that's twenty years in.
00:28:44 [Speaker 2]
And that's just that's just to say, like, that's not to be scary or to be like, oh, you know, it's hard, but it's just to say, building a craft takes a lot of time and practice.
00:28:55 [Speaker 2]
You know?
00:28:55 [Speaker 2]
And I feel like what we do is, is a craft.
00:28:57 [Speaker 2]
I think we're craftspersons.
00:28:59 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:28:59 [Speaker 1]
Definitely.
00:29:00 [Speaker 1]
I mean, I agree on that last part.
00:29:01 [Speaker 1]
You mentioned something earlier that actually had a question written down.
00:29:04 [Speaker 1]
Your work obviously is in kind of in a lot of different areas.
00:29:06 [Speaker 1]
Like, there's galleries and then you do commercial, and then you also do, you know, work for, like, these smaller punk bands.
00:29:11 [Speaker 1]
And Yeah.
00:29:12 [Speaker 1]
Kind of kind of how do you navigate those different almost contexts, like art for art's sake versus design for a client or of design for a brand?
00:29:20 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:21 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:22 [Speaker 2]
Such a good question.
00:29:23 [Speaker 2]
I mean, the worlds are really different.
00:29:25 [Speaker 2]
You know, before I got on today with you, we had a big I was a part of a final meeting for a for a project about, plant based hot dogs.
00:29:36 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:29:37 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:29:37 [Speaker 2]
I'm actually good to let's go behind.
00:29:38 [Speaker 2]
Let's go behind the scenes just a little bit.
00:29:41 [Speaker 2]
I hadn't been on the project as long as the core team.
00:29:43 [Speaker 2]
They they've been doing this for like three, three months, but The way that my work, like I kind of work on one project at a time at my day job.
00:29:51 [Speaker 2]
And I finished a project about butter because, because my year in 2025, all of my work is about food.
00:29:58 [Speaker 2]
You would call that food innovation.
00:29:59 [Speaker 2]
And as a visual designer, that for me, that means that I'm I'm like either designing fake stuff so we can put it in front of people and get their opinion, or we're trying to design new brands or take, you know, existing sort of, visual identities and improve them, things like that.
00:30:14 [Speaker 2]
So, you know, I got my color shirt on today.
00:30:16 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:17 [Speaker 2]
And, like, you know, I got my nice khaki pants on, and I didn't walk into that meeting like a punk rocker.
00:30:23 [Speaker 2]
But during that meeting, you know, when we had a break, I was answering emails from my punk rock clients.
00:30:29 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:30:29 [Speaker 2]
And somehow, again, this took me twenty years to figure out, but I used to think that there was this big difference in like the day job.
00:30:38 [Speaker 2]
And usually there is a difference in the day job in the freelance.
00:30:41 [Speaker 2]
Oftentimes our freelance work is, you know, if you do if you're like me and you work sort of a corporate job, like your freelance work is like different kind of client, a different kind of world usually.
00:30:52 [Speaker 2]
And I used to be like really concerned with keeping those things separate and like, I need to be in this mode when I'm at my day job and I can let my hair down in my night job.
00:31:02 [Speaker 2]
And after, like, getting feedback from my, peers for years, they're like, bro, the more that you are just yourself and the more that you allow yourself to be in that, like artistic creative mode with us at the day job, the better off our work, like the better we all are.
00:31:20 [Speaker 2]
So any a long time to learn that I live one creative life.
00:31:26 [Speaker 2]
I, there are different modes within that creative life, but the goal is to sort of be like very flexible and try to have the same experiences no matter what I'm working on.
00:31:38 [Speaker 2]
Meaning I wanna explore and have fun at the day job.
00:31:42 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:31:43 [Speaker 2]
I wanna like treat my clients seriously and meet my deadlines in my night job.
00:31:48 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:31:48 [Speaker 2]
Just because there's like a kind of a different mode.
00:31:51 [Speaker 2]
Doesn't it just, I I have just trying to be yourself is the best way to do it.
00:31:55 [Speaker 2]
And if you can, like, if you can find some success in the kind of work that you're making, and I have been very lucky that people have wanted to pay me for my work.
00:32:02 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:32:03 [Speaker 2]
And it also helps to kind of have something unique to offer.
00:32:07 [Speaker 2]
You know, like, I just would encourage everyone to, like, live one life as a creative person.
00:32:11 [Speaker 2]
I know that's kind of a really long winded way of saying that, but, the challenges are are super different, but I don't know.
00:32:18 [Speaker 2]
Like, it's just kind of important to be a fun, like, one, like, creative person all the time because that makes me happy.
00:32:27 [Speaker 2]
And I think it I think when I'm happy, other people are happier, if you know what I mean.
00:32:30 [Speaker 2]
Like, we're all we're all able to, like, you know, brighten the room or darken the room.
00:32:35 [Speaker 2]
And when I'm not happy, I can darken a room.
00:32:36 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:32:37 [Speaker 1]
I don't
00:32:37 [Speaker 2]
really wanna do that.
00:32:38 [Speaker 1]
I I you know, I'm a senior.
00:32:39 [Speaker 1]
You gotta put your portfolio together.
00:32:41 [Speaker 1]
You gotta put everything on ice and have this this veneer of I know what I'm doing.
00:32:45 [Speaker 1]
Even though everyone kind of knows you don't know what you're doing, but you have to pretend you do.
00:32:48 [Speaker 1]
It's a whole thing.
00:32:49 [Speaker 1]
I think a lot of from what I've seen and for myself, it's like there is this almost second person that designer is versus, like, just you as a, like, as a creative person.
00:32:59 [Speaker 1]
Like Yeah.
00:33:01 [Speaker 1]
Raynoraki, the designer that has my fancy portfolio is not Ray, the person that likes to take photos randomly.
00:33:09 [Speaker 1]
You know?
00:33:10 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:33:10 [Speaker 1]
And but Yeah.
00:33:11 [Speaker 1]
As I talk to more people hearing that of, like, they're the same person.
00:33:14 [Speaker 1]
You need to you need to kind of be the same person sometimes.
00:33:18 [Speaker 1]
A lot of the times to make
00:33:20 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:33:21 [Speaker 2]
I mean, I'm I can only tell you my truth.
00:33:23 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:33:23 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:33:24 [Speaker 2]
I think if you need to have a buttoned up version of yourself because you buttoned up for your job, like, being your at home self at your job, like none of us really can be our at at home self at our job.
00:33:35 [Speaker 2]
I think I I need to be clear that I'm speaking sort of through that creative lens, and how I treat the work.
00:33:41 [Speaker 2]
And I I used to struggle so much at my day job And again, would like, I just had to spend like a lot of time to get an amount of work that I felt like, like, man, I felt like, wow, I'm really spending a lot of time to get work out.
00:33:52 [Speaker 2]
It's like, I should be able to deliver more work than this.
00:33:55 [Speaker 2]
And I realized I was just like holding things way too tightly.
00:33:58 [Speaker 2]
And and I needed to find more of that spirit that I'm able to get into when I go home, you know, and like start to mess around in the studio or mess around in, you know, in the home office.
00:34:09 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:34:09 [Speaker 1]
So
00:34:10 [Speaker 2]
I don't wanna I I don't need I wanna be really clear that I I think you you do oftentimes have to sort of be Yeah.
00:34:15 [Speaker 2]
All of us have to be a certain person at a certain thing.
00:34:18 [Speaker 2]
But when we speak about create creativity, I think you'll you'll really benefit if you can find that one source and you can apply it to everything in your life and find joy in all of it.
00:34:28 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:34:28 [Speaker 1]
I think sometimes most accidentally put almost, like, horse blinders on ourselves when working on, like, different projects because we're like, we have this idea of how we are supposed to treat it.
00:34:40 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:34:40 [Speaker 1]
Like, if we're doing, you know, a a branded project, and I'm only saying for my student experience.
00:34:44 [Speaker 1]
I'm still very young.
00:34:45 [Speaker 1]
I'm saying this like I have a human experience.
00:34:47 [Speaker 1]
You you treat it very differently, but as you keep working, the work comes out better when I having that same fun with the process.
00:34:55 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:34:55 [Speaker 1]
Even if it is, like, a hospitality brand versus I get to make an album cover for my favorite band.
00:35:00 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:35:01 [Speaker 1]
Like, the process is still fun on both if I allow it to be almost.
00:35:04 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:35:05 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:35:05 [Speaker 2]
I think that's a really I think that's a really good point.
00:35:08 [Speaker 2]
Also, Ray, like, let me tell you, when I got out of school, I had, I had no clue whatsoever what I was doing with myself.
00:35:18 [Speaker 2]
And I had finished, you know, I had finished my like two or two ish years of like, strictly art and design classes and got out of there with a commended student senior project.
00:35:30 [Speaker 2]
But I also nearly failed like typography at the beginning of that journey.
00:35:34 [Speaker 2]
Like I'm serious.
00:35:35 [Speaker 2]
Like if, if there's a reason that I love typography now, it was because I failed it
00:35:40 [Speaker 1]
Uh-huh.
00:35:40 [Speaker 2]
And almost didn't get admitted to the design program because you had to pass you had to pass, like, three courses to even get any admit.
00:35:48 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:35:49 [Speaker 1]
Still like that.
00:35:50 [Speaker 2]
Okay.
00:35:50 [Speaker 2]
Good.
00:35:50 [Speaker 2]
I'm glad they're still challenging you in that way.
00:35:52 [Speaker 1]
But I still got to get in.
00:35:54 [Speaker 2]
I was very, very, very worried that I wouldn't get in.
00:35:57 [Speaker 2]
And my type teacher who probably should have failed me, I think threw me a bone, but she also was like, hey.
00:36:04 [Speaker 2]
I've seen the way you work with type outside of the computer.
00:36:08 [Speaker 2]
What if you started cutting out letters and putting them together and you started to handle letter spacing in a analog way versus a digital way?
00:36:18 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:36:18 [Speaker 2]
And let me tell you, I owe her so much for that push because she was hard on me.
00:36:24 [Speaker 2]
She thought I was wasting her time, which I was a young all the all this to say is, like, you're young.
00:36:29 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:36:30 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:36:30 [Speaker 2]
You're young.
00:36:32 [Speaker 2]
And youth youth is the is the best thing in the world.
00:36:35 [Speaker 1]
Tell the freshmen around here.
00:36:37 [Speaker 2]
I know.
00:36:37 [Speaker 2]
It's just they call me up.
00:36:40 [Speaker 2]
That's ridiculous.
00:36:41 [Speaker 2]
I was like, you have so much ahead of you.
00:36:43 [Speaker 2]
And I just remember what I was like, when I got out of school, and I had that portfolio in my little case, and probably didn't know what I was doing in the world of design at all for like another five years.
00:36:56 [Speaker 2]
Now, maybe that's not going to be your case, but my point is like, you got to continue to learn, you know, and it takes a minute and like, no one really expects you to know what you're doing right now because we've all been there.
00:37:06 [Speaker 2]
And we we all remember how, at least in my case, like, how un together I felt.
00:37:11 [Speaker 2]
Do you know what I mean?
00:37:11 [Speaker 1]
Oh.
00:37:12 [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.
00:37:12 [Speaker 1]
I mean, I absolutely do because I'm gonna graduate in the spring.
00:37:16 [Speaker 1]
Well, that after that, who knows?
00:37:18 [Speaker 1]
Really funny because I also didn't do great in my first type project, and now I'm doing a directed study with that same teacher about type.
00:37:26 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:37:26 [Speaker 1]
I found that
00:37:27 [Speaker 2]
I mean, that's that's that's the power of good, you know, educators.
00:37:32 [Speaker 1]
Shout out Samantha Herbert, my professor.
00:37:34 [Speaker 1]
But almost failing and and getting that feedback really hit me, and I was like, oh, I can actually do more with this almost.
00:37:40 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:37:40 [Speaker 1]
I think a lot of students, at least, I see that where it's they do almost hold themselves back with almost, like, fear in a way.
00:37:48 [Speaker 1]
And Yeah.
00:37:49 [Speaker 1]
It's it's a because I feel like when the fun starts and you start getting a little I say that.
00:37:52 [Speaker 1]
I'm not very confident.
00:37:53 [Speaker 1]
I'm more confident than I was.
00:37:55 [Speaker 1]
Being able to do stuff makes you more confident.
00:37:57 [Speaker 1]
Like, when you're just doing stuff, you don't have to worry about being confident and if it's good or not because you're just doing it.
00:38:02 [Speaker 2]
That's such a you know, that is you just described a huge part of my ethos as a designer, and I really appreciate that.
00:38:11 [Speaker 2]
And that is that is again, I wanna I'll mention punk again because a big component of punk culture is that it is things made by amateurs.
00:38:20 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:38:21 [Speaker 2]
We're making music as amateurs.
00:38:23 [Speaker 2]
Now there's, there are great punk players out there, but like the whole deal is like, Oh, you didn't have to be good at the instruments to play the music.
00:38:29 [Speaker 2]
Right.
00:38:29 [Speaker 2]
And I, I, I agree, you know, you wanna learn how to play guitar, start with Ramon songs.
00:38:33 [Speaker 2]
It's fun and easy, you know?
00:38:35 [Speaker 2]
But also underneath all of that were like people that were untrained in the field of design who are creating posters and album covers based on, based on their own experiences and their own sort of like playful exploration.
00:38:49 [Speaker 2]
And they also were doing it for themselves.
00:38:52 [Speaker 2]
And we're about like meeting some bar of excellence.
00:38:55 [Speaker 2]
They were like, actually saying your bar of excellence does not work for us anymore.
00:39:00 [Speaker 2]
So we're gonna create something that doesn't meet your bar of excellence.
00:39:03 [Speaker 2]
And then it happens to sort of ignite this, you know, this youth movement.
00:39:07 [Speaker 2]
So so I think, I just think that, like, is a really powerful way to frame how we might continue to, like, try all of us to try to find that joyful place where the stakes can come down a little bit.
00:39:22 [Speaker 2]
And and look, I 46.
00:39:25 [Speaker 2]
I still struggle a lot with, like, creative confidence.
00:39:28 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:39:28 [Speaker 1]
I
00:39:28 [Speaker 2]
just need like, I want I want to share that because, I mean, I've had a lot of, like, down days trying to design.
00:39:35 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:39:35 [Speaker 2]
And then we just need to be, like, really blunt about that stuff.
00:39:38 [Speaker 2]
And there's not always finding joy in it.
00:39:40 [Speaker 2]
Some someday you're someone's gonna be like, can you find the joy in it today?
00:39:43 [Speaker 2]
And you need to be like, no.
00:39:44 [Speaker 2]
Get out of here.
00:39:44 [Speaker 1]
No, you're
00:39:45 [Speaker 2]
gonna you're gonna really make me mad.
00:39:48 [Speaker 2]
But I think there's an attempt to like, find the joy in the work and reduce that personal pressure.
00:39:53 [Speaker 2]
And if you're able to maybe make making and creativity that's not connected to a project, That's like a really good first step.
00:40:01 [Speaker 2]
Do you know what I mean?
00:40:02 [Speaker 1]
It's
00:40:02 [Speaker 2]
like just making making things purely for the fun of it is like a really good way to start figuring out what's the mode that I'm in when I'm like, why do I feel this way when I'm just like, having fun?
00:40:14 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:15 [Speaker 2]
And why do I feel why do I feel either restricted or afraid or anxiety when I'm making something real?
00:40:22 [Speaker 1]
Kind of changed for me, like, going second year into design school, I was like, I'm afraid I'm not gonna time with this.
00:40:27 [Speaker 1]
Then I started working with my friends who are I work at a radio station.
00:40:31 [Speaker 1]
My friends have experimental noise rock bands, and every single experimental noise rock band needs a logo and a poster being made.
00:40:38 [Speaker 1]
And I was like, I'll do it.
00:40:39 [Speaker 1]
I'll do it for this local music festival.
00:40:41 [Speaker 1]
I'll do all this stuff.
00:40:42 [Speaker 1]
And I was like, oh, I'm having fun with this.
00:40:45 [Speaker 1]
I gave myself the freedom to have fun with it because it's my friends.
00:40:48 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:40:49 [Speaker 1]
I can still have that fun in class.
00:40:51 [Speaker 1]
I was putting that limit on myself because it was class.
00:40:53 [Speaker 1]
I tell everyone, that's why I didn't wanna do illustration as a job.
00:40:57 [Speaker 1]
I had so much fun with it on on my own.
00:40:58 [Speaker 1]
Forcing myself to do it for work was exhausting.
00:41:03 [Speaker 1]
Always still have that that backup, I guess, for for loving art, for art's sake.
00:41:08 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:41:08 [Speaker 2]
I
00:41:09 [Speaker 1]
think you'll be a better designer in the long run for that.
00:41:11 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:41:11 [Speaker 2]
It's so important.
00:41:12 [Speaker 2]
I mean, you you it's it's great to get to hear things from you that I have felt for a long time.
00:41:19 [Speaker 2]
And I'll just give you one example.
00:41:22 [Speaker 2]
I I often do need to kinda illustrate something, you know, and I literally legitimately need to like draw a picture.
00:41:28 [Speaker 2]
And even though I have been drawn since I could hold a pencil and draw.
00:41:33 [Speaker 2]
And even though people, my entire life have been like, man, you really draw, you know, like, that's a good if you told me to just sit down and make a picture for the heck of it.
00:41:41 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:41:42 [Speaker 2]
I'm just like, I'm off to the races.
00:41:43 [Speaker 2]
The the minute the minute you say, okay, like, now it's important or now it it that illustration needs to go somewhere.
00:41:51 [Speaker 2]
It something happens to me And the cloud of anxiety comes right over my head.
00:41:57 [Speaker 2]
And it's I still battle that.
00:41:59 [Speaker 2]
And all of my adult life trying to figure out, like, how do I fight that cloud and draw from that place of pure love of drawing while also making the picture that I need to make.
00:42:12 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:42:12 [Speaker 2]
Do you know what I mean?
00:42:13 [Speaker 1]
Oh, yeah.
00:42:13 [Speaker 2]
And that's like, that's just not easy.
00:42:15 [Speaker 2]
I understand why you would I understand why you would pivot from illustration because because you're probably a born artist.
00:42:21 [Speaker 2]
And the minute you add, like, that restrictive nature of, like, the illustration needs to be like this and it needs to match the brief and the client needs to love it.
00:42:31 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:42:31 [Speaker 2]
Or I have to scrap it and do it all over again.
00:42:34 [Speaker 2]
That starts to become stressful immediately to me.
00:42:37 [Speaker 1]
I couldn't handle it, and I knew that.
00:42:38 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:42:39 [Speaker 1]
But I can handle that kind of critique on other things that I do.
00:42:41 [Speaker 1]
So I was like, I could do this posters and fun stuff.
00:42:45 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:42:45 [Speaker 2]
I mean, like, listen.
00:42:46 [Speaker 2]
Like, the music is why I I got a corporate design job to, like realistically to pay my bills so I can like design for bands at night and like not worry about making a ton of money.
00:42:58 [Speaker 2]
Because I just love that music and love that culture.
00:43:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:43:00 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:43:01 [Speaker 2]
And I've been lucky to do that with a few bands.
00:43:04 [Speaker 2]
You know what I mean?
00:43:04 [Speaker 1]
It it has been, like, great talking to you as someone who kind of shares that background.
00:43:08 [Speaker 2]
I argue that your generation is probably, you know, I think every generation is, like, more and more, like, open to everything.
00:43:15 [Speaker 2]
And I think it's, like, the coolest, you know?
00:43:18 [Speaker 2]
There I feel like I'm, you know, I feel like a dinosaur kind of, even though even though I do I do try to like, I think punk is a genre that like, you know, it rewards you if you're trying to kind of stay on it.
00:43:30 [Speaker 2]
And not like living like, oh, I like nineties pump.
00:43:33 [Speaker 2]
Oh, I like seven.
00:43:33 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:43:34 [Speaker 2]
Like, nah, nah, nah.
00:43:35 [Speaker 2]
Like, the whole deal, if you really love it, there's great bands, like, happening right now.
00:43:39 [Speaker 2]
And it's like some 18 year old, you know, like, they're a person's your age making the culture and, like, I love youth culture.
00:43:47 [Speaker 1]
Hey.
00:43:47 [Speaker 1]
Thanks for listening to Type Speaks.
00:43:49 [Speaker 1]
Hope you had a good time because I sure did.
00:43:52 [Speaker 1]
But, unfortunately, the episode is over.
00:43:54 [Speaker 1]
But don't worry.
00:43:55 [Speaker 1]
You can check us out in other places.
00:43:57 [Speaker 1]
Be sure to follow the show to listen to every new episode or listen back to some old ones.
00:44:01 [Speaker 1]
Check us out on Instagram at typesmeekspod.
00:44:03 [Speaker 1]
And remember, always keep creating and always stay curious.
00:44:07 [Speaker 1]
I'll see you next time.
00:44:08 [Speaker 1]
I've been Ray.
00:44:14 [Speaker 2]
Ray.