Safe Aerospace Podcast

Three passes. A persistent radar contact. A brief glimpse of something silvery off the wing.

Former Navy F-18 pilot Austin Hulbert and his weapons systems officer called it a balloon and moved on. Years later, Austin started building stratospheric balloons for the military. That explanation no longer made sense to him.

I sit down with Austin, one of my instructors during Navy flight training, to revisit his encounter off the coast of Virginia Beach and what changed his mind. We discuss what he remembers seeing, what the radar was tracking, and why neither crew member thought much of it at the time.

Austin also takes us inside his career in naval aviation and special operations, the return of balloons to modern warfare, and the challenge of detecting objects our air defenses weren’t built to find. Throughout the conversation, we return to a question familiar to many military aviators: What gets missed when pilots dismiss something they can’t explain?

Learn more, become a member, and support our work at: safeaerospace.org

Please like, subscribe, and share this episode to help us continue producing independent aviation-safety research and conversations.

What is Safe Aerospace Podcast?

What are pilots really seeing in our skies, and why aren't we talking about it?

The Safe Aerospace Podcast brings together military aviators, commercial pilots, air traffic controllers, aerospace professionals, and policymakers to tackle one of aviation's most pressing and least discussed challenges: UAP (unidentified aerial phenomena) in controlled airspace.

Hosted by Former F/A-18 pilot, Ryan Graves from Americans for Safe Aerospace, the podcast goes beyond the headlines to explore what UAP encounters mean for flight safety, national security, and the future of airspace transparency. Each episode features firsthand accounts from credentialed professionals, analysis of emerging policy developments, and conversations with the researchers and lawmakers working to bring scientific rigor and institutional accountability to a long-stigmatized issue.

Called him

on the

radio.

response.

Really?

The

hell is this?

So we go

up.

try to fly

by it,

and we see

the track

file come

by the window

and

we're like,

did you see

anything?

He was

like, oh,

I don't

see

anything.

So like,

what

the hell?

turn

around,

check out

a few

miles, turn

back around

and pick it

up on

radar

again.

We're like,

what the hell

is this

thing?

we fly up

and we

by again.

don't see

anything.

We're like,

son of

a bitch.

Yeah.

It's weird,

right?

Because,

like,

he trusts

these tools.

And

I've told

people this

before.

This

is such a

good point.

I've been

in that

same

scenario

where

I'm like,

I need

to go

fly up and

see

this thing,

and then

I can't.

But you're

you're

getting

right up

to it,

using

the tools

that you

trust

your life

with

every day.

And it's

very

unsettling

feeling

when

all of a

sudden

you're

like,

is it

my eyes

feeling?

So we

pitched

back around

a third

time,

slow down

really

slow,

and

we go by

and we

finally

pick

something

up.

It goes,

it goes.

Zooming by.

We're like,

oh,

How is

behaving?

In the

safe?

Aerospace

podcasts.

I'm Ryan

Graves,

joined

today

by Austin

Homer. Yo.

Austin

is a former

F-18 pilot.

Our career

did

actually

intersect

for a

little

while.

Not sure

exactly

what year.

I guess

2012.

Maybe late

2011? Yeah.

So when

I was

a student

in VFA 106,

which is

the Fleet

Replacement

Squadron,

or the Rag

as we

call it,

learning

the F-18

for the

first time

amongst

all of the,

you know,

instructors

I had

there,

you were

one of them

specifically

when I

was going

to the boat

for the

first time

when you

were acting

as a

landing

signal

officer.

So when

I moved

back or

not back,

but

when I moved

to Austin,

Texas,

you were

one of

the few

F-18 pilots

that were

here

in town.

And so

here we are.

Thanks for

joining me

today.

Yeah,

thanks for

having me,

FOBs.

Yeah,

let's

just start

a little

bit.

Learn

a little bit

about yourself.

What brought you

to fly in?

How did you

get through?

How do you

commission

and

what was

your career

progression

like? Yeah.

I grew up

in a Navy

family.

dad was a

fighter

pilot.

mom was in the Navy.

She was an

enlisted

place.

She was a plane

captain

and then

was a crew

chief on

a seni

sky trains.

And so

aviation

has kind

of always

been

in the family.

So we

grew up in

San Diego

on,

you know,

Miramar.

So always

seeing jets

going.

Weather in.

The world.

That's why

they're in

the world.

Yeah.

My baby,

babysitter

was pretty

much

already

room.

So my

dad would

bring us in

to work.

And you

know,

we didn't

have

a babysitter

at home.

We just hang

out in

the ready

room.

John Marker

is on this,

you know,

on the

whiteboard.

And,

you know,

all the

fighter

pilots

who come in

and

hang out

and keep

his company

while

he'd fly.

So from

early age,

I wanted

to be

a fighter

pilot.

And,

you know,

fortunately,

with

the dad

is a

fighter

pilot,

it was easy

figure out

what

the route

was to,

to make

that happen.

So we moved

out of

California

after

his command

tour ended.

Moved to

Memphis.

He was a Fedex

guy, so

grew up in

rural

Memphis

from like

nine years

on, and

then after

high school

went to the

Naval

Academy

and

did that

for

four years.

While I was

there,

I did

an aviation

career.

He's got

a ride

in the back

seat of

a Tomcat,

did two

flights

and

Hornets.

So I my

Tomcat one

our patch

on.

So on

the inside.

Of my

too many,

many people

in our age

group

have that

type of

record in

their

logbook.

Yeah.

That's

cool.

It was

pretty

awesome.

It was F-14

A to

the

Checkmates,

who I ended

up flying

with in

the fleet.

So did

flight

school.

Started

with the

Air Force

doing the

exchange

flight

training up

Oklahoma,

then

Kingsville

for T 45

A's on

the boat

and 106

out of 106

got the Checkmates,

which is

two

seat FS.

We were flying

with ASA

radars,

so we were

one of like

two

squadrons

on the fly

line of aces.

And

then did

that work

up cycle.

We're

on the enterprise.

So you know

constant

sliding of

deployment,

which was

frustrating

because

we wanted

to go

deployment

really bad.

But it was

great

because

we were

always

funded

as if we

were going

deployment.

we ended up

flying

a ton.

We didn't

have that

normal

cycle

where you

come back

home,

funding

dries up.

There's not

a lot of

flight

hours.

We were

just always

funded

with the

exception

of like

a couple

sequester

times.

So we had,

you know,

phenomenal

leadership,

super

tactical,

all Top Gun

guys.

So,

you know,

they're

really big

about doing

a lot

of air

to air

stuff and,

you know,

really

getting

good.

they made

us great

and

ended up

deploying

went out to

Afghanistan

and then

came back

and did

the work

ups for the

next appointment

and then

went to

the rag

in 2011,

2012,

which

I think

was about

the time

you were

done with

all your

fighter

and BFM,

because

I think

you joined

the Rippers

deployment.

I did,

yeah, yeah.

Because

you're one

of our guys.

one of my

earlier

boats.

So I came

out of

the

Checkmates

with my Winkle

and then

went into

106,

started

doing

the

training

qual stuff

there.

And that's

when I was

your

I think

I wasn't

your head

lso, but

I was

one of your

LSO because

I remember

writing

seeing

your name

in the book

all the time

for, for

your passes

and

obviously

as.

A year

line.

Not okay.

Underline

the.

Well you're

pretty good

because

the guys

you have

to pay

special

attention

to to

make

sure that

they're

ready to

go out

to the fleet.

So once

you got

called a

it's like,

hey,

this guy's

ready to go

and then

you're out

the door.

So and

then I did,

you know,

a couple

more years

at 106

the end of

that time

went out to

the cock.

It was a

dynamic

targeting

officer

during the

ISIS stuff,

which is fun.

What is the

kick.

For people

that

might not.

Know

the

combined

Air and

Space

Operations

Center

on a value

deed?

So it's

basically

where

the US runs

all the

air war

for Iraq,

Afghanistan,

anything

in the sun

or all

the air

stuff

controlled

out

of the chaos.

all the stuff

they're

doing

right now

against

Iran,

the dynamic

targeting,

that's all

being done

out of

the chaos,

out of

that same

desk.

You know,

that job

was

phenomenal.

It was you're

fighting

your own

little war.

No one,

kind of

no one

was

telling you

what

the targets

were.

You were

just

building

your own

targets,

finding

your own

people,

doing

your own

strikes.

And you

had to go

straight to

the general

to get

permission

to strike.

And

that was it.

I always

thought

that would

have been

interesting

opportunity,

though.

I know

some people

complain

about

that role

sometimes,

at least

in theory,

but I think

they enjoy it

when

they get there.

But I mean,

those are

the people

that we're

talking

to flying

around up

there.

You can kind

of,

you know,

you

get the sense

there's

a lot of

important

things

happening

there,

right?

And you

kind of

get a

big picture

view of

what's

happening.

And you see

all the

secret ops

going on.

It's a

really eye

opening,

rewarding

experience.

And then

I got off

active

duty,

went to

Harvard,

got an MBA.

I worked

at McKinsey

for a

couple

of years,

transferred

to the Air

Force

Reserve,

did a

combat air

advising

job in

the Air

Force

Reserve at

Asac,

and now

here I am

now.

Very cool.

Kind of

like Joe

into

a little bit.

And they're

the OC,

if that's

okay. Yeah.

First off,

was it

a stand

for.

And

then now

what does

that mean

you actually

do now.

So Air

Force

Special

Operations

Command is

basically

the,

you know,

Air Forces

Command

that

provides

units

to support.

So calm.

that can be

anything

from,

you know,

Keats PJs.

So your

combat

controllers

parachute

your rescue

min

tac piece,

which

are your

basic jacks

that are

embedded

with Army

units

all the way

through

specter

gunships.

They have Ospreys

that

support

JSOC

and also

all kinds

of other

special

operations

activities,

12,

which are

the 28

which do

a lot of

soft

Overwatch

kind of

armed

Overwatch

role.

And then

there's

two other

communities

in South

which is

non

centered

aviation.

So soft

logistics

moving guys

around

the world.

And then

there was

a community

called

CAA Combat

Air

Advising,

which is

basically

the Air

Force

took the

kind of

Green Beret

mission

set.

And

they were

like hey,

we want to

do that.

Both

airplanes.

And so

they built

this

community

that embeds

with host

nations

and partner

nations

and then

teaches

them how

to do,

you know,

X, whatever

that X may

be in

their own

aircraft.

the kind of

a good

example

would be

we are

building up

the

Lebanese

Air Support

and TAC

P program.

So guys

are getting

called up

in caravans

and A29

and then

going over

to Lebanon

and flying

those

aircraft

to teach

Lebanese

pilots

how to

integrate

with with

ground forces.

So in

a lot of

kind of

we'll

call it

non first

world

nations.

The military

is very

stovepipe.

So there's

not a

lot of

joint

integration.

And

a lot of

that goes

back to,

you know,

the days

where

the military's

would have

coups

all the time.

they didn't

want the

military

having all

this power

overthrow

the elected

government.

they kind

stovepipe

them.

So a lot of

countries

benefit

from

having,

you know,

the Air

Force

working on

that side,

the Green

Berets

working on

the ground

side,

then

getting

those

groups to

talk to

each other

and

teaching

them how

to do

air to

ground

integration.

Very cool.

And has

any work?

Well,

I mean,

I'll work

right way

to say it,

but any

your

current

flying

responsibilities

then

tangential

brushed up

into any

of the

recent

operations?

Our unit

has been

doing some

stuff

overseas

and then

the broader

community

as well.

And that's

the NSA's.

So they

shut down

the CAA

community.

They're

bringing it

back

right now,

but

in a new form.

So during

that

interim

period,

went over

to do

to join

the community

that

ends up

community

is doing

a lot of

stuff

for the

current

fight.

I mean,

you're

just

moving,

you know,

soft guys

around from

point A

to point B

and doing

logistics.

So,

you know,

it's

all left

of bang

usually.

So it was

it was

absolutely

I'll say

fascinating.

I mean

regardless

of whether

you agree

with

Venezuela

or Iranian

operations

right now,

there's

been at

least two,

I think,

operations

that will

probably

be studied

for a very

long time.

The capture

of of

the

Venezuelan

president,

which

happened

within

a matter

of minutes,

as well as

the

recovery

of a US

Air Force

pilot, 15

I believe

it was

pilot

or weapon

system

officer

that was

shot down

in Iran.

Both of

those are

incredibly

complex,

multi-agency

international

operations

that are

some ways,

you know,

almost

the

scenarios

you imagine

when you're

training

as a pilot

about

being able

to execute

a mission

like that

versus,

you know,

5 to 10

years

hanging out

over

Afghanistan

somewhere

else.

And

incredibly,

at least

from my

perspective,

or at least

maybe the

public's

perspective,

they went

almost

flawlessly.

Love with

your

experience,

maybe

the comment

or one

or both

of those.

Well,

it's

interesting

because the

whole

root of

the Joint

Special

Operations

Command

was this

operation

called

Desert One,

which

is the

failed

hostage

rescue

of the

Iranian,

the

American

hostages

from Iran

back

in the 70s,

I think,

during the

tailing

trailing

year of

Carter's

administration.

Basically,

they tried

to rescue

these

hostages.

They got

a couple

C-130s

stuck,

they had

a collision

on the

ground,

and Iran

turned

into this

big problem,

and it was

a mission

failure.

And the US

went and

looked back

and said,

like, hey,

why did we fail?

How can we do

this

better?

And

they stood up

JSOC

and that

obviously

born to

Special

Operations

Command.

And so

there's

some,

you know,

echoes of

that in

the

current,

you know,

fight where

we did

go pick up

that guy.

We did do

hostage

rescue.

It was

successful

this time.

There were

some C-130s

that were

blown

up like

there are

some echoes

of that

initial

and

obviously

I don't

have

special

knowledge

about

how this

operation

took place

beyond

what

you read

in the news,

but it is

nice to

see that

kind of

come full

circle

where

you see

what

the genesis

of JSOC

was,

and now

you see it,

you know,

at its

fruition,

its

maturity,

you know,

decades

later,

and you

see

the ability

to go

and execute

like highly

complex

inter-service

operations

flawlessly.

And you

look at the

Maduro

rate,

I mean,

that was

a textbook

near

flawless

execution

something

that was

I mean,

essentially

the opening

scene from

do you

remember

Air Force

One

when they

went and

snapped

that?

Yeah, that

president

out of

his palace,

like it was

pretty much

the opening

scene

of Air

Force One,

except it

just went,

you know,

beautifully.

And I think

that

that says

something

to the

whole

nature

of anyone

who's been

in the

military,

of the

whole

debrief,

take the

lessons

learned.

How do we

get better,

you know,

full open

kimono.

What did we do

wrong?

How do

we become

better

out of that?

Whether

you believe

in the war,

support

the war

or not,

you have

to admire

the fact

that, like,

this is

executed

so well

and in

multiple

times too.

Especially

for complex

rescue

operation

when you

have a

pilot

and a Wizo

geographically

separated,

one of

them's

injured,

one

of them's

not. Yeah.

You know,

rescue

going on

for one

where

you lose

an aircraft.

So now

that puts

another

PR like

possible PR

activation

going on.

So it is

really

fascinating

to see

everything

kind of

coming

together.

It would have

likely been

the quarterback

and I

imagine

been a busy

time.

The chaos

wouldn't

quarterback

necessarily

because

they'd

spin up

a unique

special

person

who's

running

that.

But

the chaos

would do a

lot of the.

we saw this

in in

the ISIS

fight where

if you

had like

a high

value asset

that

people were

going

after,

they'd

put up a raws

and

that would be

a JSO

control

with JCC

assets.

And you've

got guys

who are,

you know,

option,

you know,

operationally

controlled,

passed

over to JSOC,

but

they'd be

running

their own

ops in

specific

regions.

And that's

what

you need

in that

circumstance.

Like you

don't need

some,

you know,

someone at

the chaos

running

everything.

Yeah.

They have

other

responsibilities

that still

go on.

It's a

big picture

type fight.

And so,

you know,

when

you have

these

highly

specialized

operations

and

that are

compartmentalized,

it also,

you know,

there's

room for

leakage.

So if

someone

says

something

at the

water

cooler

that

someone

who's

not read

in hears

that, and,

you know,

maybe from

another

country,

that that

could be

a problem

because

the chaos

combined.

there are

other nations

who are there.

So if you

have a

scenario,

the PR cell

and the

chaos.

Personnel

recovery.

Personnel

recovery,

the PR

cell is

activated.

And

basically

when

there's

a PR

scenario

like the

PR cell

becomes

the number

one, like

everyone

supports

them,

no one

priority,

everything

goes

through

them.

They have

central

control.

Did

you train

either

with Asac

your time

in the Navy

for these

types

missions?

And off

socket

was

different

because

we were a

supported

asset.

And for

cars

they deploy

outside of

the base

structure.

So they're

actual SOF

assets.

So CAA

unit has

to be

self-sustaining

for

I think

72 hours

something.

You have

to self

extract

basically.

the training

was all

involved in

like how

do you

fight

your way

out.

How do you,

you know,

get out

of the problem.

How

do you link up

with other

Americans

and survive

until

actual

forces

can come

and

rescue you?

And so

that was

just

another

perspective

from being

on the

ground

like, hey,

here's PR

TPS that

we didn't

have as

fighter

pilots

because as

a fighter

pilot,

you go

down,

there's

you don't

have like

an up

armored

vehicle,

you don't

have an

M240, like

you don't

have

all these

weapons.

Maybe

your pistol

is working.

Yeah,

maybe

your pistols

were

wrapper.

Yeah.

Your free

magazines,

45 rounds.

Like you

don't have

the

training

to use

that thing.

You don't

have

a long gun.

So it's

completely

different

type of

scenario.

Like as

a pilot.

As a

fighter

pilot,

you're just

sitting

there,

you know,

as a

passenger

princess

waiting to

be picked

up.

I specifically

trained as

a combat

and rescue

mission

commander.

Yeah.

Did you fly

any of

those

missions?

Yeah.

So,

you know,

I have to

give the

Navy credit

for for

the

training

that

they put

us through,

both from

what happens.

What do we do

if this happens

to us here?

School

and whatnot

prepares

for

scenarios

like that

as well

as they

prepare us

as pilots

to be

able to,

at least in

the Navy,

go out

and recover

our own

just with

the units

that we

have

available

within

the strike

group.

And I

was trained

as one of

those

mission

commanders

out in

Fallon,

even do one

of the

exercise

at the boat

which was,

you know,

a whole

nother

dynamic

doing on

the boat.

Right?

And so,

yeah,

we'll

actually

send

someone out

into

the field,

into the desert

for like

the whole day.

And

they will

basically

be hunted

by dogs

and a whole

team of

experts

driving

them in the

different areas.

And this

whole time,

the rescue

mission

commander

is working

with their

back seater

to gather

this

intelligence

about where

they are

and how

we ensure

that

we have the

right person

and then

build the

actual

mission

plan with

the whole

air wing,

essentially,

to go out

every cover

these

folks,

and they're

pretty,

pretty

killer

flights.

If you

flown

on one,

you know,

they're

very

complex.

You know,

the fuel

considerations

are

extreme.

The the

the window

that

you have

the

successfully

operate is

extremely narrow.

But

they're

hell of

a fight

flight

even

at the end

when

they're

when

they're

shooting

flares up

at us

and all

that during

the recovery.

But

have you

have flown

one of

those

before?

Yeah.

one of the guys

our units,

when

we were

working out

for the

first

deployment,

I think

they had

just

started

the whole

MK process

or whatever

capability.

When you

were

leaving.

The

Nicholas.

Yeah,

when

I was at

the

Nichols.

Okay.

So that was

before

I left.

So that was

before

I deployed.

So this is

like 2009

maybe 2010

timeframe.

I think

it's 2010

timeframe.

Well,

real quick,

you know,

you

remember

Nick,

don't have

to say

last names,

but he

actually.

No,

he got there

right

after you

got left.

The Nichols

because

he was

in my class

in the rag

and we

both

went out.

He went to

the Nichols

I went to,

and we were

the only

two rescue

mission

commanders

on, on

the

deployments.

We both

went to

that

training.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Please

continue.

Yeah,

they just

started

it up.

one of the guys,

suds,

he was a

really

awesome

Wiseau.

He was

the guy

that the

squadron

was like,

hey,

you're going

to be

the first guy

to go

because

he was

one of the

senior

Joe's.

So they

sent him

through

the RNC

course

before

he went off

to Top Gun.

And I

remember

being on,

you know,

2 or 3

or whatever

those flights.

And it was

pretty

impressive

watching

them, like,

do all

the

coordination,

all the rescue.

And you

see how

like your

your

perspective

as a pilot,

your bubble

gets bigger

and bigger

and you

start to

see like,

all right,

it's not

just me,

I'm

just a cog.

You start

to realize,

like,

unless

you're

a guy

on the

ground

in direct

contact,

you're just

a customer

support

organization,

like that's

what

you are.

You're

no one is

the star

of the show

unless

you're

the one

doing

direct

engagement.

So unless

we're like

chucking

at an enemy

like we are

a customer

support

organization,

and you

really

see in

the MK

stuff

because

you're

there

to get that

person out.

And that

person

could be

someone in

your

squadron,

definitely

your wing.

Right.

You know,

when

you look

at the

Iran

scenario,

it was

one jet

that got

shot down.

But

in a future

pure fight,

there might

be multiple

jet shot

down.

You're not

gonna have

all

the resources

you would have

that we had

for this,

this recent

if you're

doing it

with like

5 or 6 jets

that are

shot down

and now you

have to

get like

multiple

guys on

the ground,

now you're

starting to

look

at like,

hey,

we need

multiple

MKs.

We're going

to be doing

multiple

rescue

packages

at the same time.

And then

that can

lead to,

you know,

failure.

And

snowball

recoveries.

Yeah.

If one of those

helicopters

goes down

okay, now

you have another PR.

that's what

it matters.

Yeah.

Well,

I guess

I'll take

this

opportunity.

If you

like to say

Pharos

Space

podcast,

please make

sure that

you like

and

down below

or comment.

You know,

I'd like

to ask

Austin,

maybe now

if you'll

join us for

and ask me

anything

with

some of

our members

in a week

or two

after this

airs.

Absolutely.

I'm sure

people

will have

a lot

questions

after this

conversation.

And

remember,

whenever

you do

those

things,

whether

it's become

a member

at Safe

Aerospace

or even

just liking

subscribing,

you're

helping

the work

that we're

doing here

and

speaking

about

the work

that we're

doing here,

maybe

we'll

kind of

transition

now to

when

you're not

doing all

that cool

flying

stuff.

What

are you

doing?

Otherwise.

So I have

a balloon

company

now.

We saw

stratospheric

balloons

to the military.

So think

like the

Ukrainians

are

using them

right now

pretty much

pick up

loitering

munitions,

fly them

hundreds

of miles

into Russia

and strike.

So that's

kind of

when

you read

about

a lot of

these

strikes

that

some oil

depot deep

inside

Russia,

a lot of

those are

balloon

borne

munitions

that are

being

hoisted up,

carried

a long way

at the winds

and then

released.

And there's

a lot

of great

tactical

advantages.

Why

balloons

are good.

Most of it

revolves

around

you

get above

your eye

ads,

envelopes

your

integrated

air defense

systems.

I imagine

perhaps

this is

something

that will

be updated

your future.

And I

certainly

hope so

within

the United

States,

because a

lot of

what

I've been

talking

about

would

necessitate

this,

which is

the very

slow speed

gates that

balloons

represent,

which

might make

it hard

for radars

that are

designed

to, say,

track

ICBMs.

I mean,

that's

not

necessarily

a new fact.

I feel

pretty

comfortable

talking

about it,

but I'm

wondering

if that's

part

of what

you guys

are working

towards

as well.

Yeah,

I mean,

balloons,

I mean,

radar

reflects,

right?

That's how

it's

useful.

And

balloons

just don't

have a lot

to reflect.

They're

made out of

the same

stuff

that your

shopping

bags made

out of

very high

density

polyethylene

that's

super thin.

So at any

given

point, it's

easy

to pierce,

but

as a whole

it's kind

of strong.

So it can

hold a lift

gas in.

And so

that

doesn't

reflect

radar

energy

at all,

at least

not to a

detectable

degree.

when you're

looking

at a radar

system

that's on

the ground,

you know,

it's got

to get the

power

output to

get through

the dense

atmosphere,

to get

that beam

out, to hit

a balloon

that's not

reflective

at all.

And

then it's

got to

reflect

enough

energy

to get

back

through

that thick

terrestrial

atmosphere

all the way

back down

to the receiver

they can

say like,

okay,

I've got a return

off of

something.

What is it?

So not only

is it

hard

to see,

but you're

very high

up.

So if

you're

carrying

let's say,

a drone,

right.

The drone

is going

to reflect

radar energy.

So you're

going

to see

the drone.

You're not

going

to see

the balloon.

you have a

small

enough

payload on

the

balloon.

That could be

very

difficult

to see.

The drone

you could see.

But now

the drones

up at 60,

70,000ft.

And most

Sam systems

are

designed

intercept

aircraft

that are in

the,

you know,

30, 40,

50,000ft

range.

You saw

this in

the Cuban

Missile

Crisis

that we

when they

finally

shot down

Francis

Gary Power

in Cuban

Missile

Crisis.

But during

the early

days of the

Cold War,

you know,

the U-2

was hit

the ability

U-2 to

get above

Sam

systems.

So then

the Russians

built a

Sam system

that could

hit the U-2,

and

they shot

down the U-2.

they built

that 71.

So, like,

well,

if we can't

go higher,

we can go

faster than

the Sam

systems.

when you're

looking

at shooting

something

down to

70,000ft,

that's

a pretty

robust

missile.

And that

missile

costs a lot

of money,

and a

balloon

doesn't

cost

a lot of

money,

and a

little

drone

doesn't

cost

a lot of money.

So now

you're

creating

a cost

asymmetry

that,

you know,

bit us.

And

in the back

side.

It can make

the outcome

inevitable

regardless

how

effective

anyone

system is.

Flight

balloons.

There's no

one has got

interceptors

ready

to go.

Take out

all of those.

And

if the interceptor

is a half

million

dollars

and your

balloons

$50,000,

that's

a cost

asymmetry.

Just like

experience

Afghanistan,

where

you're

using

a $50,000

Hellfire to

blow up

a dirt hut,

you can't,

you know,

over time,

that fight

doesn't

compute.

Yeah.

And

there's,

you know,

supply

chain

limitations.

You can't

make an

instant

amount

of them.

You create

a logistics

problem.

Right?

Like it

goes

back to

that quote.

I forget

you

said it,

but

amateurs

talk about

tactics.

Professionals

talk about

logistics.

And

if you can

defeat the

supply

chain,

then you're

creating

a really

big

sustainability

problem

for which

affects

someone's

ability

and

willingness

to fight.

From your

perspective,

what's

kind of

the latest

on balloon

technology?

You know

that you're

sharing

these

things

free

floating,

and

you need to

release

them into a

properly

selected

Airstream.

they have

some

limited

mobility?

Are they

self-powered

via solar

or other

method?

they have

flexibility

operations,

or are they

kind of

what one

would

imagine

from a

balloon?

They are.

There's a

lot of

reinvestment

in the space

right now.

There's

a lot of

great

companies

out there

that are

doing

really good

work.

You know,

Raven

Aerostar

is an

American

company

that makes

phenomenal

balloons.

They've been

there.

The big

name in

the

industry

in America

at least,

and

they make

giant

balloons.

I'm talking

stadium

sized

balloons

that carry,

you know,

thousands

of pounds

of payloads

for NASA.

So,

you know,

for a

space

mission

that

doesn't

qualify

to go out

into space

or get

time on

Hubble or,

you know,

or the

James Webb

Space

Telescope,

they'll

put it

on a space

telescope,

hoist it up

by a

balloon

Antarctica,

and then

fly it

around to

do it.

Space

mission.

So these

are million

dollar

balloons

and

they make

phenomenal

balloons.

They've

moved down

market

as well.

They make

a lot

of balloons

that

kind of

are

competitors

to ours

that are

very high

performing,

maneuverable.

Another

company

called

urban Sky

has been

doing

great work

building

maneuverable

balloons

to do

image

collection

and

gathering.

Again.

They make

great

systems

overseas.

There's

companies,

I think

there's a

company

called

Kelly

out of,

I want to

say, one

of the

Scandinavian

countries

that's

building a

kind of

a rigid

airship

that is

supposed to

be high

altitude

and

maneuverable.

the whole

lighter

than air

space

is getting

a lot

reinvestment,

and there's

a lot of

good

technology

going in.

You're

still

bounded by

and we're

pushing up

against

the edges

of, of

just,

you know,

basic

material

science.

And,

and

you still

have it's

still

buoyancy.

Right.

It's

you have to

to lift

amount of weight.

You have

to displace

that same

amount

of air.

And

the atmosphere

is still

the

same density

it was 100

years ago.

So,

you know,

if you want

maneuverability,

you need

power.

If you need

power,

you need

energy

density.

So that

requires

weight,

which means

you need to

displace

more.

So you need

bigger

vehicles.

these are

all trade

offs that

happen

in the space.

Whether,

you know,

if you're

building a

rigid

airship,

you know

there's

a lot

investment

in rigid

airships

right now.

But rigid

airships

are great

until they

get on the ground

because

they're

heavy.

They need a

big place

be stored

because

they don't

do well

thunderstorms.

everything

is a

trade off.

And

something

that

functions

really well

at a high

altitude

generally

doesn't

do so

well in the

thick,

dense,

violent

lower

atmosphere

air.

So,

you know,

high aspect

ratio

gliders

tend to get

beaten up

pretty hard

when they

come back

down to the

terrestrial

environment.

So there's

a whole

range

different

balloon

technologies.

The ones we

produce are

first

and

foremost,

we solve

for cost

and we want

simplicity.

our balloons

are riding

with

the wind.

So we

if we want

to be over

a certain

point,

we pick a good

launch

point to

ride

the winds

to get over

that point.

Other

balloon

systems

like Urban

Skies

Aerostar,

they can maneuver

to a

certain

degree,

right?

So they can

steer

around

and get

above

a certain

point

and maybe

even

kind of

do somewhat

of a

position

hold.

But again,

that's

all

dependent

upon the winds.

And because

they're

using

ballasting

and other

technologies,

they have

still ride

a wind current.

if you want

to go from

east

to west,

there has

to be

somewhere

a win,

you know, a

windstream

that's

moving in

that

direction.

Otherwise

they're not

going

to fight

against

the wind.

Do you have

any

thoughts

about the

Chinese

balloon

escapades?

Oh, man.

Yeah.

I mean,

there's

totally

spying

on us.

But let

me just

ask this.

I guess

what you

understand

about that

scenario,

does that

update your

thinking?

Oh, it's

capable

with

balloons

right now

or is that

fit your

understanding

of.

I mean,

it was

validating

for us.

We had

several

people

we were talking

to that

called us

back

afterwards.

And we're

like, wait,

we need to have

another

conversation

because

this is an

actual

threat.

We're like,

yes,

this is a

threat.

Like for

all

the reasons

I told you,

you know,

several

weeks ago,

several

months ago,

I told you

why

this is a

great technology

and now

you're

finally

seeing it.

You know,

it's always

good.

And you're,

you know,

another

nation,

competitor

nation.

Validate

your

technology

for you.

Yeah.

And I mean,

the reason,

you know,

I obviously

I don't

have any

privy

information

to this,

but

you don't

want to

go shoot

that thing

down with

your top

of the line

missile

and top of

the line

aircraft.

There's

a reason

they

shut it

down with

the heat

seeker.

Because,

you know,

who knows

what's

what.

It's

collecting.

Probably

doing some

collecting,

and

you don't

want to

put your

F-22 radar

into a

target

targeting

mode.

it can just

sit there

and sniff

the proof

of that.

Yeah,

exactly.

It's a

honeypot,

right?

I mean.

Yeah,

it's a

honeypot.

Exactly.

And so

balloons

aren't

going away.

And I

would be

shocked

if you don't

of them

and war

going ahead

because

warfare

is moving

back

towards

quantity.

You know,

it always

vacillates.

Technology

causes

disruption

throughout

the history

of warfare.

That

gives you

advantage,

usually

some type

targeting

precision

advantage,

whether

it's,

you know,

the ability

to strike

effectively

and not

waste a lot

munitions.

And then

there's a

countermeasure

developed,

and

then you

just

go back

and forth

and back

and forth

and back

and forth.

Right?

So,

you know,

back in

Vietnam,

they said,

oh,

the gun,

don't need

guns

anymore

airplanes

because

we've got

missiles.

Well,

now that

we can

defeat

missiles

with a host

different

technologies,

we'll

put the gun

back on

the F-35.

You know,

balloons

were

thought

to be done,

but

balloons

are

coming back

because now

nothing can

reach up

and

touch them.

So you're

constantly

going back

and forth.

And when

you see,

you know,

the use

of drones,

you

see that

quantity.

And again,

this is

another

borrowed

quote

quantity

a quality

into its own.

And so when

you can

overwhelm

adversary

with cheap

munitions,

you

don't have

to.

Those

things

don't have

to be

the perfect

munition.

They don't

have to

maneuver.

My balloons

don't need

maneuver.

Because

if I can

put up

ten

balloons

for every

one

maneuverable

balloon

at the

same cost,

like,

why bother?

Because now

I can cause

ten

targeting

problems

for an

adversary

rather than

one problem

that can

that could

be solved.

And so

I think

that's

when you're

looking at,

you know,

safety

in the

aerospace

environment,

we're

going to

flooding,

you know,

both the

air

laterals

but also

higher

altitudes

with more

and more

aircraft.

And we saw

you know,

this is

the reason

why

RVM, RVM

was

brought in

about

the

produced

vertical

separation

minima

for

our craft

between

those

29,000ft

and

41,000ft,

because

there's so

many more

people

who want

to travel,

there's

aircraft,

which means

we built

in less

clearance

between

each

aircraft.

And we're

going to

see that.

As you

know, urban

mobility

starts

to grow

as drone

delivery

starts

to grow.

The air

laterals.

So that

area will

just

call it

below

2000ft,

or let's

say 5000ft.

That's

going to be

incredibly

congested.

And the

technology

to detect

deconfliction

and to

prevent

problems in

that

airspace

from

manifesting

is,

I think,

the next

big

challenge

aerospace.

Both of us,

you know,

collaborative

players

as well

as on

collaborative

players.

Yeah.

So,

you know,

this brings

us back

to the balloon.

how do you

detect

balloons?

Well,

we can't

build

nationwide

balloon

detection

system

because

that costs

a lot of money.

how do we use

what

we have now

to deduct

balloons.

How

do we use

what

resources

we have

now to

find

these things.

And that's

I think,

one of the

big

challenges

that

the DoD

is looking

at from

a home

defense

point

of view,

and really

any nation

should be

looking

at from

a home

protection.

But

that kind

technology

is going to

naturally

evolve into

solving

some of

these

consumer

demand

issues,

like, hey,

I want to be

I live in

rural

Kansas,

and I want

to get to

Kansas City

International

for

my flight.

I should be

able to get

picked up

at my

farmstead,

you know,

in an urban

air

mobility

helicopter,

and just be

going right

to the

airport

in two

hours.

Well.

I think

that future

as well

on its way.

Well,

I think

we've

established

your your

bona fides

with

aviation

and

operations

and

balloons.

Aviation

careers

can end

up in

strange

places,

right from

just the

balloons.

Some guy

who's

building

balloons

in Austin,

Texas.

would have

called you

crazy.

But,

you know,

now,

perhaps

the reason,

you know,

we're here

today.

Let's

perhaps

discuss

your

interaction

with

the UAP

conversation.

And

there's a

few

different

angles

here, but

I'd love to

kind of

hear

how this

this came

your radar

and what

that looked

like over

time.

Yeah.

So back

I think

it was 2011

time frame

this

post-deployment.

We're out

in the

whiskey

area of

whiskey 72.

As you're

familiar

with.

The area's.

Off the

coast

of Virginia

Beach.

Yeah.

And my

Wizo and I

were flying

around

whiskey

one Alpha.

So they'll

whisk.

The warning

areas

are all

carved up

into

basically

little

boxes.

Right.

And you

schedule

those boxes

and

reserve

them for

whatever

training

event.

Right.

if you and

I were

going out

to do

a flight,

we would reserve

whiskey

two Alpha

and that

would be

our little

playground

where

as long as

we're

inside

this area,

no one's

going to be

in there.

We can be

femme

each other

without

having

to worry

about

not hitting

anyone

else.

But there's

one area

whiskey,

one alpha

that's

kind of

playground.

Anyone can

go in there

at any

time for

any reason.

And so if

you have

to do

functional

check

flight on

your plane,

you just go

to a

whiskey

one alpha.

If you need

to go

burn flight

time,

you go

to one

alpha.

So we're

in one

alpha

one day

and we pick

someone up

on our radar

and we

had the APG

70 nines.

So we

picked

someone up

on the

radar

and we're

like, oh,

who's

the asshole

that's in

our area?

That didn't

notify us

that

they were

in the area?

Because

usually

when you go

in, you

say, hey,

99,

which is

code

word for

hey

everyone,

listen up.

I have

an announcement

that's

important

for

everybody.

Nicole two.

One's work

in southern

corner one

Alpha.

anyone else

out here?

And then

everyone

would

respond

back with

where they are

so that you

could

ensure

deconfliction.

It's like,

oh, someone

checked in

and didn't

respond

back,

we called them

the radio.

response.

We're like,

the

hell is this?

So we go

up,

try to fly

by it,

and we see

the track

file come

by the window

and

we're like,

did you see

anything?

He was

like, no,

I don't

see

anything.

So I

put the

hell.

Turn

around.

Check out

a few

miles, turn

back around

and pick it

up on

radar

again.

We're like,

wow,

what the hell

is this

thing?

we fly up

and we

by again.

don't see

anything.

We're like,

son

of a bitch.

I'm going

to see

this thing.

Yeah, it's

weird,

right?

Because,

like,

you trust

these tools

and

I've told

people this

before,

this

is such a

good point.

I've been

in that

same

scenario

where

I'm like,

I need

to go

fly up and

see

this thing,

and then

I can't.

But you're

you're

getting

right up

to it,

using

the tools

that you

trust

your life

with

every day.

And it's a

very

unsettling

feeling

when

all of a

sudden

you're

like,

is it

my eyes

feeling?

You know,

what

could this

be?

But sorry.

Please

continue.

Yeah.

We didn't

have a pod.

I want to say

we had

the helmet

the joint

helmet,

but I

can't

remember

if we

did have

the joint

helmet.

I want to say

we did.

So we

pitched

back around

a third

time.

Slow down,

really

slow,

and

we go by

and we

finally

pick

something up

that's like

refrigerator,

a mini,

like a

character

type size

and

silvery.

And it

goes.

It goes

zooming by.

We're like,

oh,

this is

just mylar

balloon.

That was

just were

like, oh,

I guess

it was just

a mylar.

It looked

weird.

How was it

behaving?

It just

I mean,

it was

always in

that

corner.

So,

you know,

a little

bit offset

from knots,

which is

the entry

point.

It was

just,

you know,

a couple

miles

what,

east of

knots

and a

couple

of miles

north.

So it's 45

degrees off

from knots

and like

a zero, 4

or 5.

Appear

to be

drifting

or.

That was the same

spot.

stationary

do you

recall

the winds?

I mean,

I know

it's weird.

Ask a pilot

if they

recall

the wind

from

a flight

however

many years

ago.

But you

might

because.

Well, it's

seasonally

it was,

you know,

at that

altitude in

the 20s,

you're

going to

be dealing

with 50

plus.

Yeah,

that's

exactly

as I say,

at least 50

knots.

Yeah.

And so

we just

we came by

and we saw

something

that was

about

the size of

a keg

crater.

It was silvery.

And

it was also

like a

spherical

type thing.

We didn't know

what

it was.

And

we just

were just

like, oh,

it was just

a balloon.

And we

stopped for

just

a flash

as it just

went by.

And we

immediately

were just

like, oh,

you know,

there's

a giant.

The largest

city in

Virginia

is right

here.

There's

people.

It's

probably a

party

balloon.

Someone

popped up

in the air

and had

drifted out

and out.

Have you

seen a

balloon

before?

No, I mean

side for my

own

balloons,

but never

on.

You know,

I've seen,

like,

a floating

balloon.

Like when

you're down

low.

I think

once, once,

maybe

twice.

It's like

a couple

of those.

A grouping.

Of party

balloons.

Are you

solid in

balloon?

Broke

through it,

broke

his tether

and flew

through our

Fallon

event.

Oh, really?

One of

those?

Yeah.

I forget.

What the

big. Yeah.

Yeah,

the big

blimp

one's.

The big

blimp ones.

Yeah,

that wasn't

a loon.

That was a

t t runs.

Those

the ones

that

are down

in the Key

West and

they were

Afghanistan

as well.

Yeah.

I just

was like,

oh, it's

a balloon.

And we just

wrote it

off.

And then

I just

memory

hold it

and didn't

think

anything

of it.

Right.

Because

at the time

you'd

be crazy

to say

like it

was a UFO

or you had

no reason

to like.

Yeah, it's

limited

information.

Yeah.

And you're

like, okay,

I just

spent like,

I just

spent three

attempts,

15 minutes

to try

to find

this thing,

and it's

a party

balloon

hippie

shit.

Like,

I don't

want to

go see it.

don't need

to see it

again.

So we just

kind of,

like, wrote

it often,

think about it.

And then

fast

forward to

two or so

years ago,

maybe three

years ago,

my brother

in law,

Jordan

Flowers,

who is now

the

executive

director of

the UAP

Disclosure

Foundation,

I think

they just

rebranded

to.

He's always

asking me

questions

or plots

perspective.

Show me

a video

and be

like, hey,

break this

video down

be a critic

and

tell me why

this is

not a UFO.

And so I'll

always be

this,

you know,

I'll be a

good

skeptic

and say,

this is why

I think

this is

bullshit.

And so

he's like,

hey,

I want you

to connect

to this

guy.

I won't

say

his name,

but

he was a

big UFO

guy, a huge

name in

the space.

I just don't know

if he

wants me

to let

people

know.

I was

talking

to him.

He was like,

hey, I'll

talk to you.

give him a call.

And he was

asking me

about this

UFO

encounter

down in

that were

these two.

F-22 saw

this

Tic-Tac

shape thing

between

them.

And so

I was

kind of

offering

my opinion

of it. Why?

You know,

I thought

it was,

you know,

valid,

you know,

encounter,

blah, blah,

blah, blah.

We were talking

about it.

And then he

goes, well,

have you

ever had

an encounter

with you?

You finally

asked

for all

that's

on it.

And now

keep in

mind, like,

I've been

in the

balloon

space

and I

have

balloons,

and I

thought

that that

one

encounter

pop

back into

my mind,

encounter

real time

the call,

I was

like, well,

this

one time

we saw

something

that we

thought

was a

mylar

balloon.

But

now that

I know

about

balloons,

that was not

a balloon

no chance

that was

a balloon

didn't

behave like

a balloon.

It was a floating

a balloon.

It was a

moving

balloon.

It was a shape,

a balloon.

And so

I was like,

yeah,

actually

I did.

And then I

reached out

to my back

seater.

I was like,

hey, man,

do you

remember

that thing

we saw

on the

whiskey?

He's like,

yeah, like,

dude,

you think

that

may have

been a UFO?

And he's

like,

yeah, man.

Like I'm

pretty sure

it was.

And so we,

we kind

of like

both like

reminisced

about it

over

a phone

call and,

and I

was like,

yeah,

I think

that

may have

actually

been one

because

it didn't.

It was

it was

definitely

not a

balloon.

It's

definitely

something

we were

seeing

on radar

something

we saw

with

our own

eyes.

It was

moving

fast.

And now

like,

there's

no doubt

in.

My mind

moving

fast.

Or the

third time

we saw

the third time

when we

picked it

up, when we

actually

got eyes on

and it

just moved

by the

aircraft

so fast,

I was

like, oh,

we're

moving fast

as an

airplane.

So it's

just.

Well,

that's

interesting

though.

Yeah, it's

hard to

tell.

And but

it's

interesting

that

it wasn't

visible

the times

when it was

stationary

and then

it was

when it's

physical.

I don't know

if that's

important,

but

I'm just

going to

point out

that

seems to be

the pattern.

And maybe

yeah, maybe

it was

visible

that way.

You know,

there were

highly

reflective

and

stationary

it'd be

very hard

to see

up there.

Right?

Well,

I mean,

like,

maybe

we just

maybe

my intercept

geometry

was off

and I was

flying

over it,

and so

I couldn't

see below

the airplane

or maybe

it was

coming on

and just

like, no,

I'm just

dip down

real quick

and get

out of

the way

of this.

This is.

Very

common,

though,

that people

are having

a hard time

seeing it,

you know,

from my

conversations

and

whatnot.

Yeah.

Well, okay.

Well,

thanks for

sharing

that.

It's,

you know,

when people

are having

this

conversation.

Right.

And it's

it would

never enter

your mind.

It's easy

to just

pigeonhole

and throw

it away,

even

under the,

even under

like the

best

circumstances,

because

you're

actually

out there

to do

something.

So usually

you don't

have the

agency

to just

go around

and

investigate

random

objects,

especially

if there's

not nothing

being done.

But maybe

just like

a light

Notam right

to say

use caution

because now

it's like,

well,

why

did you decide

that

this was

important

enough

to go

look at,

you know,

if were

there to be

accident,

right.

So actually

kind of

decentralizing

you,

I would

think,

you know,

it now

creates

that

kind of risk

if there's

a rule

about it

now. Right.

But you

know, what

I've been

trying to

advocate

for here

with some

success

is that

if pilots

yourself

or others

that are

flying now

understood

the larger

trend,

that there

were

numerous

objects

in those

areas

at the time,

then

you would

have been

much less

likely

to just

ignore

that

information

right off

a balloon.

If you understood

that larger

trend,

there was

collection

system

in place,

there are

indications

from folks

that are

still

flying that

that's,

you know,

that we're

moving in

that

direction.

But I

think,

you know,

there's

still some

obstacles

overcome.

But,

you know,

that's

those are

the

opportunities,

I think,

that

we're

missing

learn

more about

this,

right,

because

of just

those

reasons.

And people

always

ask me

why pilots

don't

report

more.

And it's

really just

often

probably

for similar

reasons

like that,

or at least

it used to

be,

although

I think

that's

changed.

You know,

you're

outside of

your

experience.

You said

you

pigeonholed it,

but between

when

you had

that event

and,

you know,

when

you had

those

conversations

with your

brother

in law

a few years

ago.

Do you

track

any of what

was

happening

in the

public

with,

say,

the 2017

year times

article,

the

hearings

in 2023,

maybe

before

or after

your

conversations

with

Jordan?

Were there

any

conversations

that are

ready

about this

or it's

just off

your radar

until then?

Well,

I'd

followed

obviously

the

disclosures,

right?

The TikTok,

the gimbal

video,

all the work

you did

and

disclosing.

And I mean,

early on

when Jordan

was in

that space,

he's like,

hey,

do you know

Ryan

Graves?

And

he was

one of

students.

He went

and went to

my air

wing

after I

left.

But,

you know,

I don't know

him

personally,

aside from

the fact

that like.

During the

same writer

room at.

Some point,

in the same

writing

room at

some point,

but like,

I don't

know him

to get

people

who know

him,

I can

tell you

what people

say

about him,

but

I don't know

who he is.

We can hold

those

comments

for you.

Well,

there's

always

going to be

haters,

right?

So like,

there's

going to

be people

who are

going to

shit on me

for talking

about this

and be

like, oh,

you really?

You had

a UFO

experience?

Like,

who gives

a shit?

Like,

I don't know

for certain

UFO

experience,

but I'm

pretty sure

it was.

And it

speaks to

kind of

the culture

of the site

guys.

You know,

that time

when you

started

giving

that

permission

structure

to say

like, hey,

there's

a lot of

things

out here

that people

are seeing

with their

eyes,

their

sensors,

like there

there are

things

that are

operating

in Moas.

We should

look at it

not only

from like,

what the hell

is that?

But also

like,

don't want

to hit

these things

either

because

that could

cause

a problem

and that

gives

people

the

permission

structure

to start

saying

like, oh,

I saw this.

And then

when

someone

says, I saw

someone

else goes,

okay, well,

if I see

one of

those now,

I can

say it.

And,

you know,

back when

we were

when,

when we had

our little,

like,

flyby,

you know,

we knew

there

were a

lot of things

at the

time.

We knew

that APG

79 had

problems

with ghost

track

files.

It's

like if

you see

something

that's,

you know,

28,000ft on

the dot,

you're

like, well,

I don't know

if this

UFO's got

a barometer

setting

to be right

28,000ft.

It's pretty

interesting

that

they're

following

our rules,

but like

it's

probably a

ghost

track file.

So you

learn

especially

with Abd

79,

you're like

try to

learn like

what was

something

real or

versus

a ghost

track file

or just

straight

trans or

whatever

off board.

And so

you just

kind of

because

you're

trained,

you know,

in air

to air

combat

to like

grab

a piece

information.

Is this

relevant?

Note

boom out

like pilots

are

designed

to be,

you know,

ADHD

machines

that

can look

at a bunch

different

stuff,

process

information

and just

filter

information

out, take

information

in.

So writing

something

off, just

culturally

at the time

was just

normal.

Right.

And then

but I think

now that

the space

has been

breached

and

people can

talk

about it,

you're able

to give

people

permission

to say

like, yeah,

I saw that.

And you

know,

people

are

looked at

as being

crazy,

right?

Some of

the people

in my

generation

of pilots

might still

kind of

be like,

oh,

some of

these guys

are crazy.

They're,

you know,

lunatics,

but

that doesn't

matter

because

we're not

flying

hornets

anymore,

most of

us aren't.

But the

younger

generation

now,

those guys

at least

are more

comfortable

to talk

about

this stuff.

Which means

that

slowly,

we'll

probably

get more

information

that can

point to

something

that is

actually

valuable

figure out

what is

causing these,

where are they

coming

from?

Who's

controlling

them?

You know

what?

Why

are they

here?

Why are in this

space?

And I heard

someone

say

something

important

the other

day.

You know,

when

you look

at what

we did

to go

pick up

that pilot,

those

pilots

in, in

Iran,

all the

resources

to go

pick

them up

keep them

alive.

Why would we be

testing our

own

technology

and arrange

and not

telling

other

people?

You know,

I've

been out

to the,

you know,

the knitter

ranges

like they

don't

fuck around

with safety

over there.

No one.

We were

just doing

flight

testing

in the

National

training

complex.

Lose a

unique

asset,

right?

Like.

Yeah,

you don't

want

to lose

a unique

asset

because it

hits an 18

and

you don't

want to

have some

to tell

some wife

and kid

that

their dads gone

because

they were

testing

something

in a range

and didn't

clear it

with

anybody.

Like, it's

just it's

it's

like that

concept

doesn't

hold wait

for me

when people

are like,

oh, it's

a military

just

testing its

own

technology

without telling

the pilots.

Like,

that's

stupid.

One of the

easiest

ones to

dismiss.

Yeah,

it is

really dumb.

And there's

procedures

in place.

If they did

have to

tell

something

and we had

to be

exposed

to it,

purposely

accidentally,

right.

There's,

as you're

aware,

process of

procedures

if there's

accidental

spillage

and things

of that

nature,

which is

exactly

what

that would

be, right?

Anyone

who's

operated

around

black

programs

at all

knows that,

like,

you don't

just stop

being safe

when you go

into a

black

program.

People

that

go into

those

programs

are

experienced,

talented

aviators

and all

the other

support

personnel.

They go

along

with that.

They don't

just stop

becoming

safe,

talented

aviators

and safe,

talented

professionals

when they

cross into

that black

program.

Like those

procedures,

those

techniques

policies,

the

airspace

deconfliction

like that

all carries

with that.

I would

suggest

it's even

important

because if

you do

any of

those

things

wrong, it's

going to

bring

attention

to your

program.

your program,

and you're

going

to lose

an asset

that is

probably

one

of a kind.

And then

ultimately

maybe

even

shut down

the whole thing,

right,

just

because

it's been

revealed.

the think

that

we've

been just

testing

stuff

against

ourselves

over

international

waters

for almost

a decade

now,

obviously,

it's hard

to reason

that that

would

be true.

Yeah.

And why

test it

with

someone

who's not

paying

attention?

Because if

you're

testing,

you need

to get data

from

the test.

You want

the other person

be in on it

so they can

give you

the data

that

they want.

Anyone

who's done

a test

program,

those

like, it's

a cooperative

effort,

like, hey,

there's

engineers

who say,

these are

the

parameters

I need.

The test

pilot

builds a

flight

profile

that goes out

and tries

to get

the

engineers

the data

that they

need.

everyone's

on board

with it.

They design

the flight

around

that.

It doesn't

make sense

to to

just go

willy

nilly testing.

And if it's

another

if it's

adversary

nation,

like,

why would you

go to

park it.

For the

same logic,

right?

Same logic,

expose a

critical

technology

where it's

extremely

easy to

potentially

recovered

by your

adversary,

who then

exploit

that

technology

or minimize

the

advantage

of gave

you.

Russia

and China

have vast

swaths of

unpopulated

land

they can go

test over.

And they do

why

would they

do it off

the

coast of

Virginia

Beach?

It just

doesn't

make any

sense.

Everything

points

to like

this is

not

something

that anyone

who thinks

like a

human

and reasons

like a

human,

especially

reasons

like an

adversary

a military

person

would would

think to

do.

Have you

heard of

any other,

you know,

just even

if they're

anecdotal

stories

from

squadron

mates

or others

that have

seen things

and

I don't know

if you were

had any

crossover

with the

he was

the one

in my right

class.

I don't know

if you'd

call him.

He's

the one

that

ejected off

the front

end. Yeah.

He jumped

out with

the guy

who was

a former

blue Angel.

Yes. He.

And then

he went

back to

the blues

after that.

I think

it was.

Right off

the water,

I think.

Yeah.

Punched

out.

I think

it was a

name, I

must say.

I think

it was.

There

he is.

Yeah.

I forget

his call

sign

though.

What was it?

But his

seat.

He's a

public.

It's fine

because.

He skipped

off

the water

from what

I hear.

Because

when.

They were

very well.

Yeah,

they got

ferry

lucky.

That was a

week after.

I left.

Yeah.

Did

they suck

like the

rubber from

the cat?

It was.

Yeah,

it was fun.

Just in

from some

component

of the cat.

Like one of

the covered

something.

Off the

left

engine.

And then

they turned

left and

had

adverse.

Your

departure.

Yeah.

Yeah,

that was

rough

stuff.

Had his

own

experience

at test

pilot

school.

Really?

Within

about 50ft

of his

cockpit

coming

up to

his

cockpit,

hanging out

about 50ft

and

basically

locking in

that

position

as he were.

That's

wild.

Shooting

off

the open

will

get him on

here soon.

Yeah.

When he

comes

down, let's

go get

beers.

Yes, I

look

forward to

that.

It's

not a lot.

There's

only two of

us down

here.

I know it's

a great place

to be

you're at

a team

pilot

or really

anyone.

So I.

I'm loving

Austin.

Not this

Austin by

the town.

You're

pretty cool

to do this.

Thanks, I.

Appreciate

it.

I can't

imagine

the pain.

It must

be to

have

the name

Austin

in this town.

But

we don't

have to

go into

every

datasource.

What awful.

Wait, what

do you

think?

You know,

kind of

wrap it up

here.

You know,

there's

a lot

going on.

You know,

we've just

had these.

This

Department

of War

release of

information.

Some people

are saying.

Many people

are saying

it's the

beginning

of perhaps

disclosure

process.

And that's

what I

hear as

well, that,

you know,

we're

expecting

different

charges

information.

Perhaps if

what is

said

is true,

that they

might get

increasingly

compelling.

And that's

based off

commentary

from

Congress,

people

who

apparently

have seen

the larger

trove

and are

even making

pretty

aggressive

statements

about

invoking

certain

privileges

they have

congresspeople

in order

to release

that

information.

the president

doesn't,

it sounds

like,

you know,

feels like

things

are

earnestly

heating up

right now.

Asa,

I think,

is living

already in

that future

in a lot

of ways.

Americans

say Faro

space

because,

you know,

it's

not about

ultimately

joining

the

conversation

to debate

any one

photo.

But,

you know,

how do we

deal

with the

the operational

implications

of this

reality

that

we've been

talking

about?

How do we

properly

educate

and inform

pilots of

these

events

in a

timely manner,

so that

they can

incorporate

that

into their

situational

awareness?

How do we

highlight

hot areas

or areas

where

there's

consistent

sightings,

so that

we can

ensure

the proper

communications

are in

place?

What are the

proper

communications?

What are the procedures

and

how are

they

educated

across

pilots?

You know,

that's

a lot of

the work

we're doing.

But I'm

curious,

you know,

just

broadly

speaking,

I mean,

where

do you think

this all

goes?

You know,

from from

where

we are

today?

I think

the biggest

challenge

with

the

disclosure

is that

humans

are not

very good

being out

of control

and having

uncertainty.

Right.

If and then

the

American

public,

you know,

we're used

to this.

I want it

now.

Give it to me

now.

You know,

I voted for

this

person.

They promise

this and

I want it

right now.

If they're

not

doing it

right now,

like I'm

angry.

And

if you find out

that

there's,

you know,

if we

reveal

that

there's

extraterrestrial

life and

non-human

intelligence,

what are we going

to do about it?

What do you want

me to do

about it?

Right.

Like,

these

things

are so much

advanced

than us.

Like,

people are

going

to have

to get

comfortable

with

the fact

that

there's

nothing

we can do

about it.

And that's

a scary

thing,

I think,

for most

people.

Right.

Seeding

somebody?

Yeah.

Seeing

control,

especially

when you

demand

certainty,

when people

demand

certainty

and kind

of like

an immature

way. Right.

Like modern

life is

generally

giving

people

what they

want,

the comforts

they want,

the

entertainment

that they

want.

People

are just

becoming

used

to that.

And

they're not

used to

the fact

that, like,

there's

a lot

of things

that are

out of

your control.

I think

when

this is

revealed,

I mean,

it's

already

I mean,

we already know

that

these things

exist.

But I think

when people

know that

there's

someone

else,

something else

that's

driving

them,

that's

going to be

tough pill

to swallow,

and they're

going to

make

demands

that most

politicians

can't meet.

And I think

that's a

hard

message

to tell

people,

right.

Like,

what do you do

if you're the president

and

you say,

all right,

there are

we have

recovered

beings of,

you know,

extraterrestrial

origin.

There

is life

among us.

We have communicated

with some

of these.

Here's,

you know,

before we

even talk

about what

the things

that

they've

communicated,

or at least

the rumors,

how do you

deliver

that

message

and expect

people

not to

demand

something

that is

completely

unreasonable?

And that's

a party

political

agnostic,

no matter

who the,

you know,

the best

person in

the office,

whoever

you think

the best

president

is,

probably

is going to

fumble that

or mess

that up.

It's not

going to

be perfect.

Yeah,

it's it's

fundamentally

probably

the most

consequential

piece

information

to the

human

experience

as a

species

that

for our

entire

existence,

have been

the only

thing in

the

universe.

And

then now

we are

confirmed

that

we are not.

And not

only are

we not

the only

thing in

the universe,

we are not

the top

of the food

pyramid.

It's easy

to say

like, hey,

we found

life on

other

planet.

It's like

a bacteria.

It's a

little like

looks

like a

Chihuahua

or.

200,000

light years

away.

It's

100,000

light

years away.

And it's

Chihuahua.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

Yeah.

That's

neat.

That's

safe.

But it's

like, no,

they're

actually

in our oceans,

or they're

flying

around

their way

smarter than us.

And if you

touch them,

you'll die.

That's

a different

that's a

different

realization.

Yeah.

It's a

different

type of

Copernican

realization

I suppose.

Right.

Yeah.

Like is

the human

psyche

ready

for that?

Like,

are you going

to have

these,

you know,

the people

that commit

suicide

when the comets

come, like

there's

every

decade

there's

some sect,

you know,

there's

some cult

that goes

and offs

itself

because of

some comet

something.

And

you know

what's

going to be

the

reaction

to people

on the

spiritual

level, on a

political

level,

on a social

unrest

level,

or people

are going

to be like,

well,

fuck it,

nothing

matters.

Let me

just go

riot or,

you know.

Well,

you know,

I think,

I think

the

majority

of us are

too lazy

because

it's,

you know,

it's easy

to riot

when

there's

something

to riot

against.

But

this might

be a little

more harder

for people

to kind of

grasp

what to be

angry

about.

I think

there will

be so many

general

anxiety,

but

it'll be

interesting

to see.

But at

the end

of the day,

people

always like

to say,

you know,

people are,

you know,

just going

to go back

to doing

the things.

But

the food on

the plate,

you know,

that's

within,

you know,

their

ability

to grasp

and truly

understand

it in

action.

But I think

we're in

a position

where,

you know,

instead of

the

speculation

for decades

about

whether,

you know,

what what

that

might be like.

I think,

you know,

we'll just

have to

kind of

sit tight

for

the next

few months

or a

couple of years

and see how

things

unfold.

Yeah,

I think

the real

revelation

is when

people

start

talking

about,

you know,

oh, it's

one thing

to say, oh,

recovered

a craft

or body

dead, dead

aliens.

Like,

okay, cool.

Well,

what about,

you know,

you've

heard

the rumors

of people

who've

actually

talked to

the aliens,

like, well,

are

you going

to.

Are you

going to

tell me

what

you guys

talked

about?

Like,

what

did you

talk about?

What's

so important

that

you've hid

from us?

You know,

as people

have

become more

acclimated

to into

the fact

that there

are objects

that are

operating

her spaces,

you know,

I'll

leave it

to perhaps

people

better

qualified

to really

delve into

what that

really

means,

you know,

from

all these

different

angles,

you know,

philosophically

and for

religion

and

everything

else,

it will

likely

affect

many

things.

But,

you know,

as a pilot,

you know,

what does

this

look like?

What can we

learn from

these things?

Where does

this

conversation

go in

that

regard?

As as

more people

become

interested

understanding

this,

instead

of it

being

a somewhat

constrained

effort

with

the fact

that this

has been

such a

stigmatized

topic

for so

long.

When

this disclosure

does

come out,

I think

one of

the

opportunities

we have as

Americans

is how

do we

take the

leadership

all right,

we know

that these

things are

flying

around.

How

do we work

with other

nations,

even

adversarial

nations,

to make

sure that

skies

are safer,

that

we can see

these

things?

You know,

what

have we

recovered?

Have we done

test to

see if

there

you know,

how does

radar

reflect

against them?

How do we detect

these things?

How

do we track them?

we do have

a sighting,

how can we

put that

into the

aerospace system

so that

controllers

can see

that

there's

something

in the air

over here

that is

unidentified,

even

if it's

not radar

reflective,

how do we

cooperate

across

agencies to

make sure

that,

you know,

people

are aware

that these

things

are out

there?

Yeah,

we can't

control them,

but

at least

we know to

avoid them.

Then when

we do that,

we also get

information

about

perhaps

where

they're

operating

that can

lead us

to intent

potentially,

capability

understanding.

Or least

we know

where to

put more

sensors.

Right.

If we know

that

there's

a lot

sightings,

let's

say off

the coast

Virginia,

well, maybe

we put

some,

you know,

some Sam

radar

down there,

some

surface to

air radar

that's

going to

be looking

particular

points of

the sky

where

people keep

seeing

these.

And let's

start

building

a data

set on

where

we're

seeing

this stuff.

Like what

can

we learn

from how to

detect them

to make

this, to

scale

this out,

not only

within

Conus but

beyond

our borders?

How can we

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