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The Pressure Lab is a first-of-its-kind mental fitness podcast built specifically for competitive and youth soccer players navigating the real emotional demands of the game.
This weekly podcast from HEADFIRST, a Philadelphia Union Foundation initiative, is hosted by Keith Wilford who gets into the realities of being a young athlete today. Featuring conversations with pro athletes, coaches, mental health professionals, and youth development experts, each episode is an honest conversations about pressure, identity, confidence, failure, burnout, belonging, and the emotional weight competition can put on you.
No highlight reels. No empty hype. Just real stories, real insight, and practical tools for players and the people around them.
If you’ve ever felt the game get bigger than the field, The Pressure Lab was made for you.
About HeadFirst: HEADFIRST is a mental fitness initiative of the Philadelphia Union Foundation designed to equip young athletes with the tools, language, and mindset to perform under pressure and grow through everything sport puts them through. HEADFIRST is proudly sponsored by Independence Blue Cross and Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine. More information at www.myHEADFIRST.org
About the Philadelphia Union Foundation The Philadelphia Union Foundation is a 501(c)3 nonprofit, dedicated to creating opportunity, building community, and developing the next generation of athletes and leaders through soccer and education-based programming in Chester, Pennsylvania and the surrounding region. More information at www.philadelphiaunionfoundation.org
About Our Host: Keith Wilford is a Mental Health and Wellness Educator at YSC Academy and founder of The Wilford Movement. A Widener University All-American and MA in Counseling Education, Keith has spent his career at the intersection of sport, education, and youth development. He is a national leader in student development and has coached and counseled student athletes at some of the most competitive academic and athletic programs in the country.
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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) One of the biggest things that gets underestimated is how nutrition can play
with your ability to like modulate your emotions in high stress environments.
If you're going into a game or a second half underfed, you know, that's really
going to be a detriment to your ability to control your emotions or your
decision making.
Step into the Pressure Lab, brought to you by Head First, the Philadelphia
Union Foundation's mental health initiative.
Here, we believe mental fitness is as important as physical fitness.
You train your body every day.
This is where you train your mind.
The pressure, the doubt, the setbacks, they're all part of the game.
But what you do with it, that's the skill.
Welcome back to the Pressure Lab.
When we think about mental fitness, we usually think about feeding our brains.
But what about feeding our bodies?
Today's guest is not our typical athlete.
She's someone who helps athletes perform at their best behind the scenes.
Today, I'm sitting down with Marissa Gabb, the head of nutrition for the
Philadelphia Union.
Together, we will explore the connection between nutrition and mental
performance, and how our diets improve our mood, focus, confidence, and ability
to perform under the pressure.
So I'm so happy to have Marissa join this podcast.
Thank you for having me.
Excited to be here.
Yeah.
So before every podcast, we always sort of tag in with this idea of sort of
where we are and where we want to go with the conversation.
Obviously, we know each other from our work together between the school and the
academy.
So I'm just sort of thankful to be sort of in this space for a little bit of
time that we have.
And I'm so thankful to hear your opinions and your thoughts.
Thank you.
Thanks for listening.
Yeah.
So as I tag in, I give you permission to do the same.
Yeah, no, definitely grateful for the opportunity to kind of speak with someone
about things that I'm very passionate about.
Definitely work in more of like an isolated space.
So I'm always grateful for our time together.
And I'm sure this will be just another one of those.
So I guess like first, let's just jump into it.
I think people are, I think, always curious about what goes on behind the
scenes.
You know, we see the product on the field, but obviously, there's so much work
that goes into that.
Just curious about your day to day.
Yes, day to day is really all over the place, depending on what day of the week
it is, how close we are to a game, what the recovery status of the team looks
like.
So there's things that happen every single day.
We always have, you know, a fueling station, offerings like that.
But there's a lot of interactions that happen behind the scenes.
Everything we do is very informal, I would say.
So like, we don't have a lot of one on one sit down with players.
But you know, if somebody's doing rehab on the floor, I might be sitting down
there next to them kind of going over maybe like a cramping episode they had in
the game or just low energy, low mood.
So there's a lot of that that goes on throughout the day.
You know, I come up with a schedule and a plan for myself and the people that
work with me.
And then it usually goes out the window because something kind of arises.
But that makes the job really enjoyable.
It's definitely a relationship first type of job.
If I don't have the rapport with guys, I'm not going to know what's going on
with them.
And so that's been really rewarding to kind of watch that develop pretty
naturally over the last few years.
And I would say, as far as compliance and buy in, it's the best it's ever been
this year.
So that's been really, really special to see.
Obviously, everybody shows up a little bit differently.
I mean, when you're, you know, these, these athletes are coming from all over.
So they all have different relationships with nutrition and their
understanding.
How do you create sort of individualistic approach for every single athlete, if
they need it?
Yeah, definitely.
I like to start with a, like a pretty basic questionnaire, right out the get go
the beginning of the year, just to kind of get a feel for more what guys like,
I think just talking about food versus, you know, getting more into the
education side is the best way to learn about them.
And you can kind of get insight from that.
And then you can really redirect and have very personalized approaches based
off of that.
So for example, if we've got a guy who has more of like a long term injury, so
we're dealing with a lot of things, not only are we focusing on whatever the
protocol is for healing, but we're also dealing with more of the mindset side
of things, like their body is going to change a little bit.
There's a lot of attachment that comes with that, especially in male athletes,
I think soccer, it's very prevalent.
So trying to kind of keep those two things moving forward, you really have to
have a lot of small touches throughout a week.
And then, you know, we do a lot of nerdy fun stuff too.
We do hydration testing every week, we do body composition testing, labs, sweat
testing, and all these things, I think are kind of fun for the guys, not labs,
that's like a very dramatic day.
You know, you would think I'm asking them to like, you know, give a liver or
something, but they have a lot of interest in more of like the sports science
side of nutrition of what we're able to do.
And those kind of like sleek things, I think also give more buy-in.
So it's been kind of cool to get more of like the holistic side of things, and
then bring the sports science side and try to have them converge.
We've had more success with like more individual approaches over the last like
two years, it's been more feasible, more guys are interested in it.
Mm-hmm.
And do you find that there's a direct connection to what they're eating and as
it correlates to sort of their mood and performance and all the other things
that we expect them to be on that day?
Definitely, yeah.
If you think about how we all kind of approach nutrition, whether it's
conscious or subconscious, there's always some sort of like underlying emotion,
whether it's enjoyment from what you're eating, whether it's you're eating
something in response to how you're feeling, or a feeling you're trying to
avoid, or if like your response to stress is not eating, all of these things
are still applied to these athletes.
And now you're trying to navigate more of like the psychological side of
nutrition while also trying to promote more of like a performance-based, that's
what everybody's looking for is like their performance, we need them on the
field, we talk about this a lot.
But it's very evident to me when someone is struggling, and I can tell pretty
quickly based off of their energy and just how they're approaching meals.
I'm curious what friction you have run into when an athlete just feels like
what they've done in the past works.
Yeah, yes, definitely a lot of fixed mindsets for sure.
In some of those cases, I'm not going to name names, but we've had over the
years kind of chipping away at some of those things.
Whether it's just the inevitability of getting older and your body changing,
and you can't do the same things you've always done and have the same response,
you have to be more attuned with your body for recovery as you get older.
Or, you know, injuries are an awful thing to experience.
But sometimes you see the biggest turnarounds when somebody has nothing to
focus on except their recovery, and then they start to see the positive impact
it can make.
But we do have a lot of bias that comes in.
There's a ton of belief in doing something the exact same way for years.
I think soccer is very much like any other sport with that.
So it happens for sure.
Yeah.
I mean, when you work with these athletes, is there a story or a situation
where you have seen someone really evolve with their fitness journey, as it
affects their performance, sort of mental well-being and all the things that
are sort of feeding into the whole person?
Yeah.
You know, I can think of like a few players who, you know, maybe they become
complacent with where they are.
And they think like, this is the level that I'm going to be at.
Either it's the team, whether it's knowing they're going to be more of like, on
the bench as a substitute, and then they have an opportunity to step up.
And they start to notice, you know, the small things that they can do to make
that frequency reach, or maybe they've been called up to the national team, and
they get to see what it's like with all these other players from all over the
world, you know, the best in the nation, what their habits are like, and then
they start to develop an interest.
We've had a couple guys, I would say, who have gone to quite a few national
camps and come back complete 180.
And, you know, whether they want to admit it or not, they've definitely made
some changes.
You know, I can think of a few, like just in the last few years, who've really
made a lot of progress and their maturity has improved a lot too.
I think that's a big one.
It's like once you get over the, you know, 21 to 22 hurdle, suddenly you, you
know, start to pay attention to this and you're not going to Wawa quite as much
as you were before for, you know, quesadillas or nonsense like that.
It's interesting you say that, like, you know, from age to age.
If there's anything that someone can take away from this conversation, you
know, what are the sort of transitional nutritional building blocks that, you
know, from the 14 year old all the way to the 22, 23 year old pro pathway or
sort of that elite athlete, some of the things that they should be thinking
about as they enter the academy world, or even just this idea of wanting to be
a more elite athlete, like some of the things that they should be thinking
about along the way.
Yeah, that's a great question.
We're definitely working on that more at the academy, like establishing almost
like a curriculum with them, but not like in a super dry way, like kind of more
hands-on where they have to make their own type of snack, make, you've been
there for the smoothie competitions.
So, you know, those, we did an education with like the U14s last year, and I
was shocked with their, they were so impressive with their knowledge.
And I definitely think probably their parents have more to do with that than
anything else, but the conversations are happening at that age.
I think they start really excited about it.
They hit like that 16 age and they're like a little too cool for some of this
stuff.
But we've had like a really good, I would say baseline understanding of like
carbohydrates.
Let's just start there.
Like if we can get anything out of this conversation with those guys, it's the
importance of fueling yourselves like periodically throughout the day.
So we start there.
Then with the second team, we start to add in more of like the sports specific
type stuff.
We talk more supplements, gets a little more personalized.
We do hydration testing at that age.
And then once you get to the first team level, it's, you almost have to like
start back over again.
So it's, there's a lot of basic understanding or there's understanding.
I think protein, like everybody's got that down.
We don't need to talk about protein anymore.
We need to talk about carbs.
We need to talk about fiber.
Those two I think are just continue to be overlooked.
And so we kind of like started to layer it from that early age and build.
But it's, you know, it's hands-on having them experience something has I found
to be like the most like beneficial way for one lesson, one sentence to stick
in their minds.
And then to see that like play out over time.
I know that you didn't really talk about it too much, but you know, from our
work together over this past year I would, I would not be lifting it up if I
didn't throw a shout out for like, just, I think even just their overall mood
and seeing what they could make.
And yes, it was through competition.
But I think there's something about being connected and seeing what you were
making and how it actually has an effect on your overall wellbeing.
You know, so much of, even when I was playing, I think I just ate food solely
for fuel as opposed to really enjoying the preparation part of it and being
connected to what it is I was making.
Can you, and it could just be your own perspective from your own experience or
things that you've seen make the connection between food, nutrition, and mental
health.
Yeah, that's a big one.
Wow.
So to kind of like give you just like a little personal anecdote as far as like
kind of how I got into this in general was when I was 23, my brother, who was
older than me, passed away.
And at the time I was an Olympic weightlifter.
I was training for the national international levels, had like big dreams of
making, you know, trying to be in the Olympic rotation that didn't happen, but
the dream was there and this all happened at the same time.
And it really just kind of derailed everything mentally, you know, for years,
it takes a really long time to kind of get back on your feet from that.
And I would, you know, you just don't take care of yourself in the same ways
when you're going through like those stages of grief.
So I really had to kind of relearn how to take care of myself and fuel myself.
One is an athlete still having goals and trying to continue with, you know,
whether it be a distraction or something that brought me joy at a time that was
really painful.
And then that slowly became, I'm in now in a weight class sport.
So how am I balancing managing grief, trying to compete, maintaining a weight
class?
So I had a lot of really bad recommendations from people.
I'm sure you can imagine.
I know anybody that's done wrestling or any weight class sports has probably
done something not recommended and dangerous.
And so I really had to self-educate because I was finding there weren't a lot
of resources.
And that kind of led down this path of, you know, going to school for nutrition
and then eventually kind of ending up here.
And, you know, some of those things happen amongst, you know, we've had, you
know, some really tough challenges for a lot of our athletes at all levels,
both academy up through the first team.
And it's kind of like, you know, I don't want to baby them or coddle them, but
I do think that like paying attention to their mental wellbeing and always have
some sort of offering or kind of a conversation, making sure they are taking
care of themselves, especially, you know, we've had a challenging start to this
first season, right?
So how are different guys handling that, processing that?
And in what ways are they managing their stress?
There are always going to be some who, you know, aren't really eating, aren't
really sleeping.
Yes, it's soccer, but it means it's their world right now, right?
Maybe they're away from their families.
So the nutrition side from like the psychosocial is so important.
So like, are they going out to eat with their teammates or with friends that
they've made?
Are they eating in the actual dining facility and taking part in those team
meals?
And then you get down to like the actual nutrition science side of things.
You know, if you're not eating, you know, that's going to directly impact any,
your entire stress system as well.
So it's like this, you know, circulatory system that continues.
So somebody needs to be there to kind of interject and be like, are you okay?
Are you taking care of yourself today?
Um, so it's, I think, uh, a conversation that not everybody wants to have all
the time either.
So I have to, you know, kind of assess the mental state of somebody, but that
has been really, for me, like personally, very rewarding to be able to be that
person for them and, or at least to try to be, um, and then, you know, I can
have all the science and, you know, biochemistry understanding in my brain, but
like, if I can't relate to an athlete, you know, all that information goes to
waste.
This podcast is powered by Head First, a program of the Philadelphia Union
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I appreciate you, the story that you shared and sort of your own experience.
I don't think it's ever easy to talk about.
Um, but I think it's, what's allowed you to show up as, as who you are today.
And I think that that's where a lot of your strength and your power come from,
um, independent of being able to, you know, squat clean and, and do all of
these Olympic movements.
You know, so much of, of athletics is this person is responsible for this role.
So you are the head of nutrition.
Um, and you know, somebody is a head of performance or, and I, I wonder from a
coaching perspective, a parent perspective, a teammate perspective, what are
some of the things that these individuals can do to support the work that
you're doing?
Because it's one thing to, to be the person that's in it.
Um, so when the gummy bears aren't there, they're going to say, okay, well,
Marissa, where are the gummy bears, but how, how can others support your work?
Like, how can people sit there and say, as a parent, like, what shouldn't they
be doing?
Um, as a coach, what shouldn't they be saying?
How can we model it?
Like all those things.
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, you really can kind of get a good idea based off of the body language.
Um, especially when they're younger.
Um, I think, you know, there's the athletes are, can be really hard on
themselves when they have a bad day, bad game, bad training session, um, and
really internalize that.
Um, and that's where I don't want to be preachy.
I don't want to be like you, well, you didn't do this, this, this at training
today.
Um, you know, maybe that comes when we start to notice a little bit of a
pattern.
Um, so I think, you know, being open and asking kind of questions, even if like
they're at the young age where they really don't want to be asked questions.
Um, eventually the right person will ask and they will be willing to open up
about some things.
Um, same things with, like, you know, with our older guys, um, some of them are
fortunate to have great partners, um, who, you know, support them at home or
helping prep like the best food.
So having a relationship with them, me being able to communicate that stuff.
Um, we had athletes in the past who were trying to make some nutrition related
goals.
And, you know, if I didn't have a good relationship with their wives, then
like, that would be a lot harder to accomplish.
Um, so it's, it's understanding like the, you know, maybe not necessarily
projecting what you think the athlete needs and kind of asking and seeing what
they think they need and kind of leading from there.
Um, cause most of the times they're being so often they're being demanded of
something, be it performance, be it working through pain or discomfort.
Um, and it's nice to not be pushy in that way.
Um, I think like one of the best things I was told, um, from our sports
scientists that used to be here a few years ago, Walter was, you know, we're
always asking the players for something.
And like, when is the time where maybe we're giving them something?
And that is always like a grounding statement to kind of come back to when you
feel like you're just, you know, just grinding day after day with those types
of situations.
Yeah.
I mean, I have noticed that when like maybe an athlete is injured or they're
not, maybe they're not getting rostered or maybe it's just not working out
that, um, it seems like you do a really good job at allowing nutrition to be
something that they could be really good at, um, that they could try, that they
could get a better understanding.
Um, I mean, I'm, you know, people have different passions and different
interests and I'm, I'm curious what, what is an easy thing for any athlete to
do to just get started?
You know, we talk a lot on this podcast about pressure and, and, and dealing
with that and doubt and confidence.
Like what's one thing from a nutrition standpoint that that athlete can just
start to do on their own?
Yeah.
I mean, I think one thing is, uh, like asking questions, honestly.
Um, that's, you know, I think the guys who maybe have had struggles or had
reoccurring issues, like whether it's of their own volition or a parent or
somebody kind of pushes them towards me, you know, eventually they ask for help
and that's the biggest thing.
Like that's what we're here for.
I also don't want to be kind of interjecting all the time if it's not wanted or
warranted.
Um, but self-awareness I think is the biggest thing.
Um, you know, any age, you know, we, we need it more with the first team guys.
The, the Academy guys are starting to develop it a little bit more.
They may have self-awareness in a performance way, but maybe they're not tuned
in with like what it feels like to have low energy in a high humidity
environment.
Like there's things that can be done to make it more comfortable, to make you
feel more successful.
Um, I think one of the biggest things that gets underestimated is how nutrition
can play with your ability to like modulate your emotions in high environments.
If you're going into a game or a second half underfed, you know, that's really
going to be a detriment to your ability to control your emotions or your
decision-making.
And my biggest challenge I would say over the last couple of years is when we
have a struggled, struggle-filled first half, what are we doing at halftime?
Did Kobe Bryant, I don't want to like try to bring in, you know, one of the
goats of all time, but like, you know, you think of like all these amazing
athletes who, yes, have, you know, talent, but also have worked incredibly hard
to be where they are.
Do they change their habits, their behaviors when things are not going well?
That is when you really need to be on top of things.
Not when things are going perfectly, you're like are motivated by the success.
You have to be motivated also by your own struggles.
And I think that that is something that self-awareness brings a tune to.
And the younger age groups are definitely getting better at it, but we
definitely need to keep pushing that along a little bit.
Yeah.
I think earlier in our conversation, you had talked about the sort of body
imaging that gets connected to nutrition.
I mean, I have seen athletes really benefit from feeding their body, but some
of the things I always say is, well, Keith, I don't want to get too big, or,
you know, I like looking the way that I look.
And as these young people are growing into who they're going to be, what is
your best advice or guidance in sort of managing sort of body image as young
athletes are growing and as athletes who are older trying to understand how to
see themselves?
It's really challenging.
And I think one of the biggest you can kind of take away is that your body,
just like anything else in life in general, is not going to isolate itself to
one time period and be that way forever.
It's going to undulate.
It's going to change, you know, how you look and feel when you're 16 versus 25
versus 45.
There's always going to be a moment where you have to come to terms with your
body, but also kind of taking pride in it.
And I think that that approach is a little bit healthier for some of these
guys.
We're not in an aesthetic sport, but soccer is, there's lots of bias as far as
like what a soccer body looks like, you know, the amount of conversations and
data I have with other dietitians all over the world, as far as body comp
testing, what we do with that information, who gets to see that information.
And it happens at young ages too.
So we don't do body composition testing on our academy guys solely for the
purpose of like, they are, they're growing and developing.
Like there should be no opinion about what their body looks.
If they're not performing well, if they look like maybe, or not look, if
they're performing as if they're not fit, then that's something that can be
addressed with a fitness coach.
But I'm not coming in trying to manage the body fat percent of a 17 year old.
I think it's, they need to really kind of embrace where they're at in the work
that they're putting in.
And maybe there's behaviors that can help them a little bit to feel better, to
move better, but none of it's coming from a looks standpoint on my end.
That doesn't mean it's not something that maybe they're internalizing a little
bit or comparing.
But that's just a conversation that has to be continued for the duration of
their careers and past it, I think.
And how do we shape that message with those that are also in their lives?
Parents, coaches.
Yes.
All the people that have influence.
Yes.
Oh man.
A statement I can say, I've said multiple times to different staff members over
the years, not just here, but elsewhere, is that like your ideas and
conceptions of a soccer player, of an athlete, of what you used to be like,
that's the biggest thing, is when you have a lot of vets that are in the
building, it should never be projected on the athlete in front of you.
It's a completely different person, completely different scenario, a different
time.
Everything is different.
So that usually, one, offends some people, but then also kind of, I hope,
forces them to kind of look at the conversations they're having.
Parents too.
Like I think one of the most reoccurring things that I'll see is like parents
that are really obsessed with clean eating in their own lives and then pass
that down to their child, which obviously we want all the kids to eat a whole
food diet and all of that.
But they're also children and they're also training for two to three hours a
day on top of school.
So I say it a little kinder to the parents, but it's the same thing.
It's like, I'm happy to talk to you and whatever you're navigating as well, but
what we're doing with the child needs to be specifically for their needs.
And I think when it comes back to that, usually things get back on track.
But it's an ever going conversation for sure with all levels of staff, all
levels of parents and guardians.
And it gets spicy sometimes.
I can imagine.
I mean, being the parent, I definitely have caught myself at times in that same
messaging.
And I don't think it's, and even for anybody that's listening, I think it's
with not good intentions.
I think that, but sometimes we don't always remember that the things that we
say really do matter to these young people.
And obviously when we're leading them, they take everything that we say,
sometimes literally, but also it can affect them in a pretty big way.
So complete pivot.
I don't think you started in soccer.
You were in football too, right?
I did.
Yes.
One of my, I worked with the LA Chargers when I was a dietetic intern.
So I was there for kind of like their preseason camp going into the beginning
of their season.
Very different world.
Yeah.
Very high energy, intense, a lot of positivity.
Very different though.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
As I sort of close this conversation, I am curious if there's one takeaway or
something that you want this listener to be able to walk away with, whether or
not it's just your own perspective, doing this work and lifting your work up,
what's one thing that you would want that person to take away?
I guess the first, I'm going to do like a two pointer if I can.
The first point is that the kind of information overload of our modern age,
there's always something that's being elevated as like the most important thing
to focus on.
Like we joked about proteins, kind of it, you can find it in literally
everything right now, like injected into sweet potatoes, who knows?
Like it's everywhere.
But this, like anything, it's like the core things remain the core things.
The research hasn't changed in most of those things.
It's the most consistent research.
I think a lot of times people are focusing on the wrong things with the little
impact versus what can make the biggest impact is more like long-term
adjustments.
It doesn't happen overnight.
These athletes that made 180s in their diets, that took a year and a half.