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Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, and most importantly, find joy.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free
Ride Free, where we talk to people who
have lived self-actualized lives on
their own terms, and find out how they
got there, what they do, how we can
get there, what we can learn from them.
How to live our best lives, find
our own definition of success,
and most importantly, find joy.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling
author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning
Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs
and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Welcome back to Live Free Ride Free.
It's all about self actualization.
And we've got somebody pretty
self actualized Kansas Caridine.
Should I say Caridine or Caridine?
Kansas Carradine: It's actually Caridine.
Rupert Isaacson: Caridine.
Good job I asked.
Those of you like me who are
5, 000 years old or so remember
growing up with the series Kung Fu.
At least you especially
do if you're a Brit.
And and I think also if you're
American and what sort of cult that
was and David Carradine, who was the
obviously the star of that coming
out of a, of a, of an acting family.
Well, his daughter Kansas has taken
a self actualized journey, which I
think is unusual particularly for
coming out of a background like that.
And I think it's one
we can all learn from.
I think it's one that.
We can all get some mentorship from I
know I certainly can so I'm not gonna
preamble too much I'm just gonna say that
I I first met Kansas About four or 500
years ago, I think it was in the early
2009 or 10, we were both at a place in
Northern California where there was a
sort of equine assisted thing going on.
And we had a brief conversation in
which I picked up a fallen deer antler,
which I still have in this house.
So every time I see that fallen deer
antler, I'm like, Kansas caridina.
Yes, I remember.
And always had this sort of feeling
that we would end up talking more.
And then.
Through the, his eminence, Warwick
Schiller we met again in San Antonio
last year at the last summit and in a
raucous bar in the hotel, managed to
work out the intention to chat further.
So here we are.
So Kansas, thank you very,
very much for making the time.
I know the listeners have
a big treat in store.
Can you tell us in brief who you are?
Kansas Carradine: Oh, I think
that question for anybody is
so interesting because who we
are exists in so many different
domains, so many different levels.
I'm a mother 1st and foremost
to be 2 beautiful daughters.
I have been largely identified
in the question industry and
when people ask, what do you do?
I just get to say, I ride horses.
I have been blessed to be able
to, have horses be threaded
and woven throughout my life.
When I was 11 years old, I decided
to leave home, the home that you
referenced to was really in Hollywood,
like in the thick of it, and everything
that you could imagine that is
associated with 1980s Hollywood, and
I moved out when I was in grade six.
And followed my nose into the horse
world deeply, and then lived in a really
authentic California horse ranch that was
steeped in kind of cow horse tradition.
And the family that cared for
that particular organization
became my foster family.
So I often refer to them as my cowboy
family or my foster family because I
stayed there until I was 18 years old.
That's the Riata
Rupert Isaacson: Ranch, correct?
Kansas Carradine: Correct.
Yeah, we had a ranch.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about that.
And you say grade six.
For those of us who are, who are
Brits and Europeans and can't think
in those terms, how old was that?
Kansas Carradine: I was 11.
Okay.
11 years old.
Yeah.
And when I made the negotiation and
I did, I really negotiated and I
said, I'm going to go move into this
horse ranch and I'm going to leave.
And I had, this is 1 of those
blessings that comes and we have
different experience in life
that we could say are traumatic.
And instead of that post traumatic stress,
it was really a post traumatic growth.
That gave me the independence to
move along and say, Oh yeah, I can go
move here and I can make that choice.
And I moved in with a different family.
I had already bounced around quite a bit.
Rupert Isaacson: What made you think?
Oh my gosh, aged 11.
Absolutely gut feeling.
I can trust this family.
I can, I can make that sort of
a effectively self actualized
decision at that age.
What, what was going on with you
that you felt you not only had that
confidence, but also that discernment.
Kansas Carradine: Certainly.
I mean, I think again, there's
so many answers to that.
There is definitely a lot of intuition.
And the intuition without thinking,
without questioning, without insecurity
and self doubt that comes with
kind of, as we get older, we attach
stories and we get a little bit more
in our mind and we, and we hesitate.
But intuitively I had gone there
for horse for a two week horse camp.
And initially I had just fallen in
love with the lifestyle with The horses
with living and breathing and living
on a ranch that is attractive enough
to, to, to grab any 11 year old girl.
I think who has a passion for horses.
And so to wake up and we had probably 40
head of horses on the ranch at the time,
you know, over a dozen different trick
riding horses and just kind of a legacy.
It was totally a dream world.
The, I showed up in my
britches and hat and helmet.
And the first thing that we did
is put on swimsuits and ride the
horses bareback through the river.
And then spend all night in tennis shoes,
practicing to stand up on horses or run
beside them and really feel that blend.
And so anyway, it was
all extremely alluring.
But the decision to move in with them
is that they had created what I would
say, a field of safety and security
that was a reliable energetic imprint
that I was attracted to that stability.
And truly what I was seeking at that
time was just grounding and stability
and it was so wholesome and to have
foster parents who are basically a
generation older, so they were really
still connected to, we could say the
old ways there was something in my
soul that really felt drawn to that.
And so I was following again,
something that's really beyond the
mind, just this intuitive impulse.
It's
Rupert Isaacson: not every girl,
though, who would have grown up
in, as you say, 1980s Hollywood
with all the sort of excess that
one associates with that, who would
necessarily have been able to tap into.
Her intuition to that degree, even
after, you know, a two week magical
camp I guess what I'm fishing for
is a lot of people say I wish I was
more in touch with my intuition.
And obviously we know that children
generally are, and then it's sort
of, you know, we told that we need to
separate from it as we get older, but it.
It doesn't sound like 1980s Hollywood
was necessarily fantastic training ground
for trusting one's intuition, or was it?
And were your family actually
A family that despite all the
Hollywoodness actually taught you how
to foster intuition to some degree
or did it come from somewhere else?
What do you think?
Kansas Carradine: I honestly think
it came from somewhere else and
something that had been cultivated
deep perhaps beyond different beyond
this birth without a doubt because
there was not a lot of interaction.
I think growing up with.
Artists who have a different assigning
to heart and meaning that being in
the field is definitely something.
So there was always music around
and there's always the desire
to, to follow your heart in terms
of being assigned with artistry.
There was a certain amount of Eastern
influences as well as, you know, my
father was involved in some projects that
worked with indigenous people and Native
American church and things like that.
I didn't know that.
Okay.
Yeah, so that was around the AIM, the
original, like, American Indian movement
that was taking place in the 70s as well.
But there was not a lot, you know,
the pendulum swings both ways in
generations, and so I think my parents
generation was extremely conservative
and very controlling, and therefore
they were very liberal to me, and so
there was not a lot of, of, of teaching.
Mentorship, it was just kind of, all
right, we'll let you grow like a wild a
seed in, in a field and just let you be.
And, and perhaps that in and of itself
allowed me to tap into my intuitive
impulses because I didn't have a lot
of restrictions that being said, I
was seeking more form and boundaries,
which is what I actually appreciated
about having a German foster father.
Okay, we had a very organized, you
know, clean running ship at the,
at the stables that appealed to
me on many different dimensions.
And then at the same time,
I would say that, you know.
Also, when you're around somewhat
of a chaotic environment, then you
start to rely a little bit more on
the awareness and perceptions of
safety and be more present to it.
And so, since that was switched on to
me at a very early age I think that made
me aware of environments that where I
felt safe and secure or environments
that I wanted to move away from.
And so, hence that Riding stable this it
was truly a sanctuary and it had again
the resonance of security and stability
that I was attracted and drawn to
Rupert Isaacson: do you have siblings
and did they display the same degree
of precocious intuition or is it
Kansas Carradine: just you?
I was raised pretty much as an only child,
so my siblings were quite a bit older and
raised in different homes, so we didn't
spend that much time together at all.
And they're artists as well, and we
have wonderful time together because
we're quite iconoclast or magnet.
We're not your average
conservative type of people at all.
My sister and my brother both are,
we're, we're all pretty eclectic but not
because we were under the same household.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so you, now you
said that the couple that were running
the Riata Ranch at that time, that the
the male half of the couple was German.
What was a German doing being
running a trick riding ranch
in California at that time?
What was their story?
Kansas Carradine: How did that?
It's an amazing story and if I ever meet a
screenwriter one day that can help me put
it out it's just fabulous, but You know,
he was actually from North Dakota and was
raised on Will James Storytelling books.
So the old Westerns always wanted to be
a cowboy and at 12 years old ended up
hopping on a train Thinking that he was
going straight to Arizona, which is where
Western life, and he ended up in Hollywood
as the stable boy for Will Rogers, who
was the biggest movie star at the time.
And, you know, slept in the, in the
mangers of the horses and end up becoming
you know, a rider and some of the sale
yards, because he was a really good rider.
Very good horseman because German
father would hook teams together and
for plowing fields and things like
that and brought that tradition.
In a very that lineage
was really established.
So when he brought it to Hollywood, he
was actually doubling Jennifer Jones
and do a little the sun as well as
Elizabeth Taylor in national velvet.
And then he always wanted to be a
cowboy, so he quit the Hollywood
thing himself and ended up in this
small town about 3 hours north.
And he was a calf roper, but he had a
car accident that quit his rodeo career.
And because he couldn't, find
a way to basically pay the
bills for his young family.
Somebody said, well, why don't you
teach a couple lessons to my kids?
And that four students in the first
year grew into a hundred students.
And there was a thriving, it was
just destiny created this crisis.
And he became a mentor to over,
over, I want to say over 3000
students between the 50s, 60s, 70s.
And then I joined at the end of the 80s.
And where did the
Rupert Isaacson: trick
riding come from with this?
Kansas Carradine: He was always
introducing lots of multidisciplinary
masters to come in and teach the kids.
So there was a lot of rain, cow,
horse, and then, you know, rodeo.
And then somebody came who knew some
trick writing, you know, they did
Rosenbach writing and Roman writing.
And then the trick writing team
became a demonstration team.
And in the late seventies, it just
got a lot of attention until there
was a pivot and that became the
exclusive offering in the eighties.
And then.
Currently today, that team
still exists in a different
incarnation, but it's still going.
What's the name of the team now?
It's still the Riata Ranch Cowboy Girls.
Yeah, trick riding and trick roping.
There's a famous old Hollywood cowboy
named Monty Montana who brought
ropes into the program And so then
we started doing the trick roping
and really I always explain it's
it's such an ancient art There's not
many people who have ever seen trick
riding before much less know about it.
And so it's wonderful that it's that's
one place where it can kind of be
nourished and And then it helped me
later on, since being involved with
Cavalia, find my path really into the
circus world and the performing arts,
this kind of vaudevillian entertainment.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
So, so talk us through you, you
find yourself at the on this
two week horse camp, you're
introduced to this wonderful world.
You're ready.
Horses are already clearly in your blood.
And you then make this decision
to Basically move in and sort
of be a daughter and, you
know, become a trip rider.
You are 11 when this happens.
You then go out and become a
performer, a public performer,
sort of full time performer.
At what
Kansas Carradine: age?
Well, I mean, I was doing the
highest level shows at 12, 13.
So it started early.
And then maintained, I mean, we had
done everything from, you know, Super
Bowl, halftimes and 49er games to World
Equestrian Games and Aquitana and all
of those Cheval Passion, which is in
Avignon, France, with a young Lorenzo,
Lorenzo was there and Fred and Magalie who
ended up hiring me with Cavalia were also
there performing at the, at that event.
So, yeah, it started early, which is
which is a blessing in and of itself.
I mean, I had a significant amount
of burnout early on because I'd
already done so many things and had
been pushed to a very high level.
And at the same time, I also didn't
have the same type of striving.
Like, I need to prove this.
I really want to be able to get to this
next level because it was It had already
been attained, you know, quite early on.
So my I guess my natural magnetism to
still be in work with horses without
was with a true love and a true desire.
It was not because I expected it to
bring me some sort of other means.
And this is also the gift of
growing up, you know, around
celebrity and fame is because I
saw really the impermanence of it.
And it was never something
that I had to strive for.
I was just really following what.
What what felt nourishing on a soul
level, you know, the desire to be
with horses and find that unity and
have that relationship, which was
much more the reason that's the rub.
Rupert Isaacson: So you, but you
talk about burnout and you're
talking about burnout very young.
How old were you in this
first of perhaps more than one
burnout and what burned you out?
Kansas Carradine: Yeah, so, there
was definitely a significant amount
of pressure and inflexibility.
So, all the 7 years through school
and through secondary school, there
was no option to do other things.
I had some other passions and interests,
and to be fair, I should say I was allowed
to do you know, kind of mock trial debate
certain plays and things like that.
But I wanted to focus And get really
deep into musical theater and focus
a lot more on singing and voice.
And that was not allowed
because my commitments with
the writing team or so big.
So that was kind of the 1st teenage
angst that I think I experienced.
And then by the time I was
18, I really pulled back.
And had to find my own way and I
didn't want to be introduced as
David Carradine's daughter anymore.
I did not want to be wearing just,
you know, the red, white and blue
because I'd been doing that for so
long and kind of this Americana role.
And so.
I actually ended up handling a love for
the mountains and spending a lot of time
up in Alpine environments and more, you
know, Yosemite and the Sierra's here
where we live living up in ski areas
and following that passion and still
doing some shows from time to time.
And then it wasn't until I came back into
Los Angeles and started going more into
the stunt world, actually coming back
into horses full time, but I was burnt
out to the point that horses were, that
had become just a job and there was not so
much like the joy and the love behind it.
And when I was cast for Cavalia,
I had already auditioned and was
hired before I'd ever seen the show.
And the first time that I saw the show, I
was just weeping and weeping and weeping
because it was so beautiful and I couldn't
believe that I was a part of something
that really was much more in alignment
with my core values than being in rodeo.
So I've never gone back.
I appreciate my rodeo roots.
I appreciate everything that it taught me.
And I love a lot of things
about Western culture.
But I haven't done a rodeo
since, since I was 18.
Rupert Isaacson: What year
were you hired at Cavalia?
2004.
Kansas Carradine: So it's been 20
years,
Rupert Isaacson: right?
So, and I think, I think
that was the show that I saw.
I saw it in Dallas that year and I
remember also being absolutely gobsmacked
because, you know, I'd seen beautiful
equestrian spectacles before and so on.
So they're always, they're always amazing.
But there, I remember that there was
a quality to that particular show.
And I also remember, I, We, in
our preamble, where it said that
I also, like you, lived in Quebec.
We'll get there later.
And I remember I was around in
Quebec when Cirque du Soleil
first began, and I remember going
to a few of the early shows.
And when it was still something
very, very new and being blown away.
And then when that connection came
with horses thinking, Oh my gosh,
this is, this is that absolute nexus
of art and passion and excellence.
So it's, it's, it's interesting to me.
What.
What do you think was the, because
that, that show had a particular, I
didn't see any further Cavalia shows.
I think I almost didn't want
to because I, I felt that if it
wasn't quite that magical again,
it would disappoint me, you know?
And, and, and so I wanted to remain
with an, and I remember watching
Frederick Pignon Magali doing.
Taking liberty to a whole other
thing that none of us had seen
before and the trick riding being
astonishing and mixed with humor and
storytelling and just, just great.
What do you think was going on
that you ended up in the right
place at the right time there?
Because, you know, I, I know lots
of people who've been in trick
riding teams, good trick riding
teams and that sort of thing.
And they're all very accomplished,
but this was something else.
This was something special.
It almost felt like there was
something almost a bit occult
or supernatural at work there.
What took us through your experience?
Kansas Carradine: Yeah, I mean, I always
feel like there was, it was a ceremony.
And at the time I had already been
attracted to Being engaged in sacred
relationship and being engaged
in really meaningful ceremony
and indigenous ceremonies and was
really wanting to align myself with
things that had more of an impact in
ways that work on the non physical
domain, but have really an energetic.
Ripple effect, if that makes sense.
So at the time I was living in Los Angeles
and when I became hired for Cavalia
and saw that I was again attracted to
the resonance and this is something
we'll get to heart math at some point,
but I started to notice when we're
attracted to energy where it's like
there's a magnetism there that draws
us in and there's a shared resonance.
So we're really attracted to
frequency and the frequency that
Fred and Magalie would choose.
So, yeah.
Authentically experienced on your
own, there was a way that they had
this respect with horses that at
the time was not widely broadcast.
It's not that it didn't exist.
And I think I heard you speaking
about you know, those who are living
a self actualized life that not
not necessarily are celebrities.
You know, everybody is there undiscovered.
There's some of the greatest
work has said that before.
There's some of the
greatest horse trainers.
We don't know they're in, they're
in doing their amazing stuff.
Yeah, exactly.
But this was an opportunity
that it was widely broadcast.
And since I was already, you know,
a stage performer and a question
artist for so many years, I
recognized that right along as right.
Quickly as being exceptional and
unique and special, and if you gather
2000 people under that big top every
night, which we would tease, it
can make its own weather as it is.
Like, there's something about the geometry
of that particular big top everywhere.
We went, you know, that we have
would have the craziest storms.
You know, Quebec City had a hurricane,
which it never should have had.
Sedona or Sedona or Scott still was
flooding, so there was something about
the ceremony of 2000 people coming in
to witness love between interspecies.
In this case, it was equine and human.
And the storytelling behind it was really.
Touching in with that, which is ancient.
So there was something about the tracking
internally that you feel on a soul level.
There was no words and the
storytelling was very subtle.
So it allowed you to go into this dream,
like, almost shamanic kind of state.
And it was the first time that people
were truly witnessing compassion.
On stage at a large scale, because what
people would remark about, we didn't
really have language for it then,
but we were watching Fred Pignon and
Magalie be compassionate to the horses
when they made quote unquote mistakes,
because it was really feeling and flowing
with instead of following a hard line
of, okay, this is how you execute.
And this is the definition of success.
So all of a sudden we stumbled upon it.
This, it was like opening Pandora's
box or opening Alice in Wonderland's
you know, falling down the rabbit hole
into a world that was really trying to
strive for the ideals of compassion and
right relationship before they were even
becoming common in our, in our language.
Well, you, I mean,
Rupert Isaacson: you talk about ceremony
and feeling a sense of that, were
you thinking in those terms at that?
age.
And if so, where did you get that from?
Because you by then were, as you
say, a very choreographed performer.
And okay, yes, your, your parents
have been a bit around the American
Indian movement and Native American
church and so on, but you've
broken away from that environment.
So, so where out of this highly
choreographed Sort of, as
you say, Americana type, red,
white, and blue type show.
Where were you getting these ideas
about ceremony and compassion?
Kansas Carradine: I mean, I honestly
think a lot of it has to do with the
privilege of being raised in California.
And Southern California is
a pretty progressive place.
And so coming back home I
decided It was a very specific,
pivotal moment, to be honest.
I moved back to Los Angeles in
2001, right after September 11th.
And somebody said, hey, I can
get you a job serving tables.
You just moved to L.
A.
at a really fancy.
She, she rest sushi restaurant
on sunset Boulevard and it
would have been an easy thing.
So I showed up in line.
Excuse me.
And there was all of these.
Professionals and people who not likely
with families and whatnot with attached
cases and suits and they were all trying
to get a line because everything, you
know, there's been all these massive
layoffs and we were in a huge recession
now and I took 1, look at that line.
And I was like, I don't need to do this.
I don't need this job that bad.
And I ended up working for
a crystal lady for like, 300
dollars a week in Santa Monica.
And she was an energetic
healer medium and.
We worked with crystals and
that was the first time.
Rupert Isaacson: I
Kansas Carradine: was genuinely already
seek a spiritual seeker, you know,
hungry and ravenous for everything
that I could read about spirituality.
About, you know, at the time it was
really anything that kind of new
age and really it's ancient wisdom.
It's, it's the occult,
it's esoteric wisdom.
And so ravenous and, and all of
that kind of feeding that desire I
was looking at I can't remember the
name of it, but it was like a mind,
body, spirit magazine that was quite
popular and there was an advertisement
in it and that's what I answered.
And, you know, when you go to an
interview and they ask you for your
birth date with the time so that
they can do your astrology in order
to get the job, it was that kind
of a thing, you know, 20 years ago.
And at the same time, I had also
can't really remember how those
contacts I just was setting out
the intention that I wanted to
work again in native communities.
And so I was involved in different long
dances with women's circles as well
as with the, the Shumash nation here
in Southern California, which is part
of, you know, my roots and I guess I'm
missing a really big piece, which yeah.
Even though I haven't done any
DNA testing, I was told my whole
life, my grandmother was from
the reservation in Oklahoma.
And so my mother's grandmother
is Native American.
We don't know which reservation is
a lot of reservations in Oklahoma.
We don't know any of those stories.
We just know that she came from
Oklahoma, ended up in Texas, and
then married my great grandfather
and ended up in Southern California.
And this was something that was
hidden from our history because
my mother's maternal side of the
family was embarrassed by it.
And so, you know, there's something
called Mongolian spots, which
is an imprint that happens.
It's like Appaloosa imprint on
like a birthmark that I have.
And so I was always told that,
but there was really no support.
It is it's around like, the sacrum.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
On your bum.
Basically a little when you're a baby,
and then they kind of, you know, fade out.
So I had always been connected to that.
Internally, not because there was a
lot of external influence and so I was
seeking out to be a part of ceremony
and had started doing, you know, sweat
lodges and I ended up going to South
Dakota and spending time with, those that
are actually outside of the reservation,
because they haven't signed the treaty
in Lakota homes, is different than,
you know, being on Pine Ridge, but had
always wanted to give back in any sort
of way, as well as learn to be more
in alignment with the natural world.
Was that
Rupert Isaacson: happening, was that
happening during the same time that you
were riding with the Riata Ranch, or
was this in that, in the interim period?
Kansas Carradine: Correct.
It was during that interim period.
So you went, you went actively
out looking for this stuff?
Right before I came to Kivalya.
Right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Now, for the point that I will laugh about
this because, you know, there's certain
ways that you're supposed to follow.
You know, trying to get work, for example,
in Los Angeles, you're supposed to stay
in town and follow the momentum and I
would maybe get a little breadcrumb and
that would kind of sustain me for a while.
And then I would leave town and then
I would go to North Dakota and go
spend time with native people or,
you know, end up out and in You know,
my manager couldn't get a hold of me
because I was checked out and hiking
up in, in, in the wilderness somewhere.
So I was not a very good actor.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Well, but hold on where we,
where we left you was, in
Santa Monica at a crystal shop.
And now suddenly you've got a manager
and you're doing some Hollywood jobs.
So what happened there?
You, you decided
Kansas Carradine: actually.
Yeah.
I mean, it all just kind of unfolded.
I had moved down there to spend some
time because there was a certain amount
of encouragement to be a part of the
family business and the family legacy.
And so I was, you know, taking
acting classes and was going out
on some auditions and my dad would
tease, you know, cause I would.
He's like, wow, you're
about in a thousand.
Everything you go out
on, you've been booking.
But my, my heart wasn't in it.
And so I was always trying to, was
Rupert Isaacson: this straight up
acting or was this also riding?
Kansas Carradine: So it
ended up taking both sides.
So yes, there was some straight up
acting and that was always kind of
like the desire for You know, the
family encouragement, but I, when I was
visiting with a A livestock contractor,
he had worked with my grandfather.
He had worked with my dad and
all my uncles and he said,
oh, you went to be at a ranch.
You sure can ride.
I've got some work for you.
And so my 1st job we're actually,
you know, for the screen actor skill.
We're doing stunt work.
I did both and then there's always,
they're always to have that judgment
of like, well, you can't do both.
You can either do the stunt
world or you can do be really
focused on being a serious actor.
So again, those were like the, you're,
you're in an artistic artistic environment
and already you have these constructs
that society wants to put on you.
You can't do it this way in that way.
And I care for such labels.
Rupert Isaacson: Quick rewind.
You'd said that one of the reasons that
you burned out was that you, there were
some other things you wanted to explore,
including singing in musical theatre.
Well that's acting.
And there you are in Hollywood.
So, had you lost the
desire for that by then?
Kansas Carradine: Yeah, because I realized
That I mean, I enjoyed performing and
I enjoyed being on the live stage,
which is why when Cavalia came along,
it was really easy to join the circus,
basically it's a little bit of a different
texture as opposed to being on set.
And so, you know, and then
there was a time when after I
had been on the show for some.
For a while, for a few years or something.
My dad gave me, you know, when I
teased one of those left handed
comments of, you know, what you're
doing is actually kind of cool.
Like, Josh thinks, you
know, after all these years.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Parental encouragement
is an interesting thing.
We've all got fun stories that way.
I wanted to ask you though you, you were
reaching out also at this interim time
before Kivala, I want to get back to
Kivala in a minute, but you said you were
going up to North Dakota, spending time
with Lakota, going to spend time with the
Chumash, who for those listeners who don't
know, the Native American world, that's
the, that's the tribe that is sort of
the most prevalent in the California that
we think of as California, that sort of
strip that goes up from Los Angeles North.
I think that was really interesting.
But what a lot of listeners might
not know particularly listeners from
the UK and so forth, is that that's
not an easy world to penetrate.
I've spent various bits of my life in and
around bits of Native America as well.
And it's, it's not, it's, you know,
it's not necessarily a very inclusive
world because of, you know, the
history and the trauma and so on.
And particularly The Lakota
and particularly the Chumash.
I just happened to know that.
How did you, what was different
for you that you could penetrate
those worlds so easily?
Because it's not
Kansas Carradine: easy.
It's true.
I think what's coming to my mind first
and foremost is the value that My mentors
from Riata Ranch being more traditional
and teaching the value of silence and
teaching the value of respect to elders
and teaching the value of humility
and deep listening and that sense of
cultivated presence all of those things
that I showed up with There's like an
energetic key signature that allows
again, it's about establishing safety.
Do we trust this person?
Can their mind be quiet
to receive information?
And so the aspects of, of, of humility and
respect I find were certainly part of the
portals and really remaining authentic.
I mean, I used to always say I prefer
to be around the horses in, in Hollywood
because you can't Be fake around horses.
You have to be authentic.
And there's obviously a lot of
smoke and mirrors that take place
with regards to the Westerns and
Hollywood and things like that.
An actor will show up and
be like, yeah, I can ride.
And very quickly, it will be
discovered that that was a lie.
But by and large.
The horses were teaching me about
being authentic and carrying
that authenticity with me.
It's, it's something that
you can, you know, there's a,
there's a, it's a palpable,
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, for sure.
And I think within what you were doing
with that level of trip riding, I grew
up in Leicestershire, partly in the UK,
which is the heavy, heavy fox hunting.
It's team chasing, steeple chasing,
point to point, cross country riding,
whether, you know, the fences are bananas
and you can't see on the other side
of them and you just get, everyone's
getting mangled around you all the
time and you have to trust your life
to the horse and you, you, you can't.
As you say, sharp and authentically,
and I think all the people I know
who, who trick write like that.
It's, it's the same that, that the
trust it's insane, but the, the entry
I'm, I'm hopping on this, the entry
into the Native American world that
must have come through relationships.
These things usually come
through human relationships.
Was there a particular mentor or
set of mentors who helped you go in?
And could you just talk a little
bit about those relationships?
Kansas Carradine: Certainly.
And I will say one of the things that I
was always present to is I think early
on I decided I really didn't want my
my name to be At the forefront of an
introduction, because I didn't want it
to color people's experience and I didn't
want it to give me access that I wouldn't
have earned authentically on my own.
And so I would, you know, have this
name Kansas and I would often just,
you know, this is Kansas and I
would know people for years before
they ever even knew my last name.
Yeah.
And it's, it's been very useful at times.
And I think my, my genuine
introduction into the you know,
Schumach community, there's a
particular elder named choice slow.
Who's still with us, and I was
honored to have his instruction.
As well as there was a woman nearby as
well named red branch and then another
from that tribe named my wall and they
knew of my connection with horses.
They knew of, I think my sincerity
to seek and understand and
just to listen and to learn.
And so, spending time with understanding
the listening and, and connection to
the, the birds, those that fly, those
that crawl, the four legged, the two
legged, and the inter species relations.
It was the first time that I understood
that there's really, I mean, there's
many worlds existing side by side, but
that there are certain Members of the
community, for example, that wouldn't get
in cars, because that type of movement is,
it disturbs your perception of movement
when you can have more stillness you
know, choice low would mention oftentimes
that there's 3 beyonds, beyond, beyond,
beyond, and that when we think that
we're going to this getting behind the
meaning behind something, there's still
many more layers even to that yet.
So, I always, I think with all my
teachers, I always want to move
in just like I did when I was 11.
There was something inside that when I
see mastery or recognize that type of
information, there's that willingness
to really sit at the feet of the master.
And recently, I was thinking that watching
Kung Fu, there's this discipleship, guru
disciple relationship that is depicted.
And I thought, wow, that was
imprinted on me at such a young age.
And it's something that I really,
I really love apprenticeship.
I think there's a real healthy
human experience within that.
That's just something
that I've been coded for.
So I really like to work with
math masters and really surrender
my own idea of, of superiority.
Like, I don't know what I don't know, so
please there's been many opportunities
where I could share something, but if I'm
sharing, then I'm not able to receive.
So go ahead.
Rupert Isaacson: So you,
you, you mentioned a master
a mentor, Choi Slow, right?
Choi Slow?
Have I said it correctly?
How did you, how'd you meet him?
And yeah, because it's, again, it's,
you don't just waltz up and down Venice
beach running into Chumash elders.
So what was the process?
Kansas Carradine: So, he was living up
in a a small camp, I would say, up behind
Ojai, and I was introduced to him by
Maewu, who's also Chumash, and it was at
a time when I had decided I didn't want
to be assigned to traditional holidays,
so this was actually the time when
Americans are having Thanksgiving and I
decided that I would rather be involved in
something that was, you know, meaningful.
And I was invited to go up and
spend time at this camp and.
Choice low was staying there had been
there for, I believe, many, you know,
weeks and months, even though the
reservation is several miles away.
It was distance.
And they were, there was some
efforts to be able to create
another kind of community outside.
If, you know, within indigenous
communities, there's.
This is a minus is to 2 functions
happening in the reservation.
Right?
And so, oftentimes there's, there's a
necessity to have kind of a satellite
location and this other place.
Just the region was really
connected to the land and it's
very close to where I'm born.
And so, we were, there
was no other intention.
Other than really just sitting and being
in presence and specifically the medicine,
like understanding the, the animal
medicine and the different clans is what I
was really I guess, being educated about.
So it was talking a lot
about the nature of each.
We would call it like a totem
animal and how they send
messages to each of the clans.
And at the time Troy Slough was
very connected to, to the birds.
And now that I'm talking about it,
I'm remembering there was discussion
about like the Phoenix birds and
my daughter's name is Phoenix.
And I never really made the
connection until now that we're
talking that he spoke a lot about.
Phoenix's and he spoke a lot about the
regenerative nature of a lot of these
birds and their spirits that humans
don't always see exactly what they're
contributing to in the spirit world.
But it's interesting now that I, I share
that with you that my daughter her name.
I really feel like I
didn't choose the name.
It just came through like, Oh,
her soul's name is Phoenix.
And so, you know, my mentorship was
really brief, but the time with Choi he,
it ended up coming full circle because
he actually performed, I would say
the last rites at my father's funeral.
And so he came with some other members
from the Chumash nation and they were
there for the last moments when we
were putting the earth onto my father's
Rupert Isaacson: grave.
Did your father know them?
Kansas Carradine: No, okay.
No, he never was introduced.
I would have liked to but
it just didn't happen.
But I asked them to if they would
do me the honor to be there.
And many people came up
afterward and said, thank you.
That is what we needed foreclosure.
That is what we really felt was
the, the most meaningful moment
of that particular ceremony.
Rupert Isaacson: Is that that
area, the Ojai area is that
where you sort of grew up?
Kansas Carradine: No, I grew up in
really the Santa Monica mountains.
So just a bit more south.
Okay.
So yeah, I was born in Santa Monica
and then, you know, around Hollywood.
And
Rupert Isaacson: the reason I'm
asking is again, not every listener.
Is coming out of the American context or,
you know, knows that geography, but again,
so for those listeners who, who don't know
that there's a strip of coastal hills that
goes up the sort of California coastal
hills and they, they, they go from more
or less just a bit north of Los Angeles.
Up to behind San Francisco, and
it's a particular landscape.
I lived, you know, so being a bit
nomadic, I lived for a while in
where Berkeley and Oakland meet, and
so I fell in love with those hills.
There is a magic to that landscape
of these rounded, grassy, high hills,
almost small mountains in some cases,
which are green in one season and
Golden brown in another season with
these evergreen oak trees that snake
up and then it's it up the valleys
and it's it's something rather unique.
But it goes on for sort of
hundreds of miles of this strip.
And so I just want listeners to picture.
In their mind that that is
when you mentioned oh, hi.
Oh, hi is probably one of
the most beautiful bits of an
already sort of universally
beautiful landscape in this way.
Did you just before we go to
Cavalia and and your performance
there and what came after that?
Can you describe as a child of those hills
and then, as you say, first growing up
in the sort of Santa Monica disconnected
from the nature while still surrounded.
Because everything that surrounds
Los Angeles is very beautiful.
And then connecting.
Can you just describe But people
who might be driving their car in
New Zealand or Manchester or New
York or wherever, or Zimbabwe, you
know, who are listening to this.
Just, can you, can you describe
any moments where you really were
brought into the occult connection
with an already occult landscape?
And just, just, just, just put us there.
Talk us through that.
A lot of people have never
had these experiences.
Kansas Carradine: Certainly, certainly.
I mean, I was just speaking with a
naturalist when I was down in Patagonia
about and asking and inquiring,
you know, what was your imprint of.
Being in one with nature, being
really immersed in nature as a child,
because obviously, you know, those
people that are still protecting
endemic species and things like that.
It's, it's so far beyond what
I believe I'm, I'm doing.
But 1 of the things that stands really
clear is, my parents were living
on the beach when I was very small.
And so I spent a lot of
time in and on the ocean.
And the beauty of having a very free
childhood is that there was no sense of
urgency or a schedule, but everything in
terms of time, I was just able to spend
hours and hours in the sand and hours
you know, looking at starfish and the
little sand crabs that I would Pick up and
let them run through my fingers and the
Pacific Ocean here is a little bit colder.
But to me, and with the, the hot
summers that we have in Southern
California, Southern California
really has a desert landscape.
It's very much like Mexico.
So many introduced species for the
landscaping, but as you described, the
oaks are truly the signature of the
oaks and the sycamore trees, which have
these beautiful kind of white marbled.
Trunks and these very
wide 5 pointed leaves.
And so I remember as a child really
being activated and fixated by the
earth by the fennel, which would grow
wild by the trunks of the trees and
the bark of the oaks and the sycamores.
And then there was there is,
there's a lot of sandstone here.
And as you mentioned, kind of steep
hills and cliffs, and there's a
lot of fossils in there as well
as quartz and things like that.
And I went to somewhat of an
alternative kindergarten here in,
in, in LA, and we would cross this
little creek and it's really a desert.
So it's hardly much, much water down here.
So a little bit of a stream of
water was just it was like Eden.
And it was something that anybody
else would look at and not even take a
second glance, but for a little child
growing up in the desert, this little
stream of water was just so magical.
And I would cross this little stream
and I would go to the side and I would
actually play with the quartz crystals
and things like this, and really having
the time to just be absorbed deeply.
I just feel like.
The, the wind, we're famous
for the Santa Ana winds.
My name Kansas actually means
child of the south wind.
So there's something about the
wind in my in my blueprint.
It, it, for me, it's invigorating.
It feels the ones that
come from the warm south.
It's a very feminine wind.
And then you hear the, the wind
moving through the trees and.
It was, it was as though nature was still
really breathing very deeply through
all of my cells even though I went to
regular public school, I trusted nature
and trusted horses and had a very deep
relationship with them, even before I
trusted humans, I would say, and now when
I come back to California, because it's,
it It is so deeply encoded in myself.
I, I still pay homage to these sandstone.
There's these huge rock formations, you
know, like Eagle Rock is one of them.
There's Chumash painted cave, cave.
The Chumash people were actually
a matriarchal society because
the life here was so abundant.
There was enough food.
There was enough you know, both from the
seafood that, That came from the ocean.
It was a a temperate climate.
So there wasn't the same type of
warring society that we're familiar with
the association with Plains Indians,
the matriarchal society out here in
the Chumash was very, very balanced.
And it was through working with them
that I also was able to learn more of
the storytelling out in a place called
Point Conception, which is the far.
Farthest western point of California.
And I had spent some time out there
and then learned that that was the
place that where they believe the
souls would leave Turtle Island,
that that was the jumping off point.
And so, you know, my husband
is a geologist and he'll always
tell me the science behind stone.
And to me, it kind of demystifies thing.
It's like you, when you said
that you didn't want to watch
Cavalia again, because it might
take away that initial imprint.
And for me as well, I
prefer the creation stories.
And when I was in the Lakota Nation,
I learned some of the star stories
about, you know, the Pleiades, seven
sisters, one Six sisters, one whose
back was turned, and it was only years
later that it was realized that they've
known these stories for centuries,
but with modern instrumentation, we
can see that there is a dark star
there in the Pleiades constellation.
So all of that, to me, you know, the
preservation of our creation stories,
and as you travel around and read
them all, you see the similarities
that to me is what it is to be human.
Rupert Isaacson: We're about
to go into Cavalia, but there
you are with the Chumash.
And they're introducing you
to bird medicine in details.
Can you give us a moment, a story an
experience of being shown that medicine?
Can you share something with us?
Kansas Carradine: Yeah, I mean, what's
coming to mind is my personal struggle
at that time is I really felt like I
wanted to contribute more and I didn't
know how, and I just wanted to contribute
and be a servant to Mother Earth.
And my life seems so superficial
and meaningless at the time.
So those present knew that that
was part of my heart's inquiry.
And in just sitting and sharing I
think there was tobacco, but there
was nothing else in terms of, you
know, plant medicine being offered.
We would, I was taught how to
properly harvest sage with respect
to not hurting the plant and.
To pick very quickly and make sure
that we do it at the right time
of day and having that respect and
honoring for the plant kingdom.
And as we sat down and we would burn
sage and sitting in a very simple
kind of, you know, shed with a lot of.
Wings of birds around and
talons of different birds.
And I was taught how
to groom the feathers.
So I was given an eagle feather and
the care that you bring all of the part
of the plumage back into alignment,
even now, anytime I find a feather,
I'll always spend time, you know,
grooming it because the feather itself
is an instrument for medicine to
be able to clear the etheric field.
And in this inquiry that I had, we
had stayed up most of the night,
and then I was taken outside
and shown, here is your answer.
My answer was really,
how can I be of service?
And the sky had exploded, and this is
just behind Ojai, but the sky had exploded
into a sunrise that was so deep and pink
and orange that it was, in my opinion,
the pointing of, The, you are always on
the path, you can never be off the path,
and to just surrender this idea of a
particular right way of being of service,
just to continue to show up and allow
yourself to be open and flow with that.
That's the language that
I'm giving it to it now.
But so much of our teachings and
so much of that is experiential.
It's really beyond language.
And then very soon after is when I had
the audition to go to Cavalia and even
though it seemed like I was chasing
after a dangling carrot, there was
something about being a part of that
company, that cast that really felt
like it was on point and in alignment
with a service oriented mission.
And although it was hard to let go of my.
Connection to land and the, some of the
alliances and relationships that I had
made, I ended up dropping everything
and never looking back and just putting
myself fully into that next transition.
It was like, everything was
being prepared to step me into
that next transition that was.
definitely more public and it was
more, there was more rigor involved
because I had a schedule and we had to
show up six days a week and completely
give over your entire life to that.
Whereas before I was, I was very
I was very, very free for those
few years right before I became.
Contractually involved.
Rupert Isaacson: How did the,
how did the audition happen for
Kansas Carradine: Cavalia?
I was contacted by my colleague from Riata
Ranch, and she said that she didn't have
anybody else who was of age, and I was
already over 18, so I could audition.
Was I interested?
And Because the Riata Ranch is famous
for having truck riders, right?
When Fred and Magalie were in
town, one of the first riders that
they had had actually got injured.
She broke her leg.
They needed another girl.
So they started asking around and if, you
know, if you ask anybody in California
where to find a truck rider, everybody's
going to point you to Riata Ranch.
And so I actually went up to Berkeley
if you spent time in the Bay Area.
The set was the Cavalia
tent was set up there.
I got, we brought a saddle.
I was introduced to a horse.
I did a back bend, which is for those
who don't know, it's a full bridge on a
horse running at full speed that I didn't
know, which was nothing to me at the time.
And I look back and I
think that's kind of funny.
And then some Cossack drags where
you hang upside down and some
vaults and things like this.
And I met Fred and Magalie Delgado, Fred
Pignon and Magalie Delgado, and we Joked
a bit because I had spent that time in
Avignon as well for Cheval Passion that
we thought, oh, we had seen each other.
We'd been performing in the same show.
But then I went home and I didn't
hear anything for a long time.
And it was the longest two weeks
of my life because I was still soul
searching and still seeking meaning.
And then when I got the call to join,
it was it just started this waterfall
effect of momentum that everything
snowballed and my life took a trajectory
that, that everything else has
been really governed by since then.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, okay.
So for those, for those, again,
for those listeners who don't
know what Cavalia is, was.
And, but who have seen perhaps equestrian
spectacles, equestrian spectaculars.
I live in Germany.
We have one that travels every year
called it's now called Cavaluna.
It used to be called Apache.
It's fantastic.
I know, I know the people who.
put together some of the classical teams.
It's wonderful.
I hate to say it.
It's not quite as wonderful
as that first Cavalia show.
There was some magic there.
I want to ask you about that,
that you said that there was
an element of ceremony to it.
You said that also that you felt
there was an element of service.
That wasn't, I have to
say, apparent to me.
When I saw the show, I just saw
something that was Art in its purest
form, so it was, that was very moving.
So was the element of service
just the bringing of joy,
which that show definitely got?
Or was there, are you, was there
some other element of service
Kansas Carradine: there?
My way of defining service is also
that when we are willing to give
that much of ourselves for other.
So that's bringing joy without a doubt.
But also when we look at the horses, you
know, some later on in life, when I met
Ariana and you and I both met in that
kind of equine, therapeutic context,
I questioned bringing horses into any
stall environment or any structured
environment and then through my own self
inquiry and meditations and whatnot,
I realized that they are performing a
tremendous act of service in allowing
themselves to be in that ceremony.
Going into urban environments and
giving those people from cities, just a
little bit of a picture of what it was
like, or what it can be like, again,
at the highest octave of experience
of right relationship between horse
and man or interspecies relationship.
So there could be an idea of,
like, I don't want to be involved
in this because X, Y, Z, so you
really have to be willing to.
Surrender.
Okay.
I'm going to give my entire life because
there's nothing else when you show up at
eight in the morning and you finish near
to midnight every night, six days a week.
And you're definitely not there for the
money and you're not there for even the
glamour because it's really part of a
company, which is different than it's
like when you go to a Cirque du Soleil
show, can you name anybody who was in it?
Hmm.
It's a different experience.
You're there for the sake of the whole
and it was wonderful to be around
you know, Fred and I felt so blessed
obviously to be in that environment.
So I, I know that I was getting a
lot out of it, but when I look back
on it, you know, I, I always was
trying to make sure that I could
find ways that it was of service.
So the other piece that came in.
Okay.
And I'm a bit, I was a bit naughty,
like you talked about me being naughty
earlier on I was giving away tickets
oftentimes to my friends, like my Lakota
friends, and to anybody who works with
different nonprofits and things like
that, because we often had empty seats,
and they, our ticket sales would be low.
And so I was always trying to find
ways to share that joy with others
who wouldn't be able to pay for it
because it was an exclusive event.
It's very much assigned with elitism,
as is the entire equestrian world.
And so, part of my little way
of contributing was making sure
that, you know, Choi and some of
the Shumash friends were able to
come as well as Lakota friends.
And then around the world, because
I was with that company for so long.
There was a lot of nonprofits that
I was able to, to get into see that.
And basically these are people who have
given their whole life to a humanitarian
causes and they don't have enough
money to buy four tickets to bring
their, their kids to come and see that.
And so this was a way that I
was just an instrument to help
facilitate such an experience.
Rupert Isaacson: I think that was
I've only met Frederic Pinal and
Magali Delgado a couple of times.
I'm hoping to have them on
the show actually, because
I met them at Ana last year.
And I've gotta give them a
ring and hope to get them on.
And what I, what I think I recognize
immediately, I, I also met them
backstage at that show that I
described, and I was immediately struck.
Obviously one was struck by them on stage.
What was so interesting is you,
you're prepared for people to be
assholes, you know, and I also like
you grew up all through university.
I financed myself by riding on film sets.
So I did that, you know, the endless
waiting around, but for great money,
you know, and Then you do something for
five seconds on a horse and then you
know, you can sort of pay off your rent.
It's wonderful but you know, you you you
are as a you're basically an extra and
so you're your lowest of the low on that
very hierarchical food chain that you
have in the movie industries It's it's for
those people who haven't experienced it.
It is, you know, people aren't very
nice to each other Basically, there's
the you know, the power structures are
fairly military really but I And of
course, you know, with the horse world
and the arrogance and snobbery that
goes with it and I'm sorry, but I spent
a lot of time in France and the French
can be awful with this particularly
the ones who ride really, really well.
And as can the Germans, as can the Brits,
as can the Americans, as can all of us.
Right.
And I think all of us who've.
Achieved a certain level of equestrian
mastery in one field or another have
gone through an asshole phase and I think
those of us that don't admit it are lying.
Because it's a painful memory and I
think something has to bring it because
the problem with horses, I think, is
they give you power when you're on a
horse or with a horse, you are bigger,
faster, stronger, more beautiful.
All of these things, and you
can easily forget that this
power is just being lent to you.
And that you're really just, you're just
a monkey, you know, and as soon as you're
off that horse, you go back to monkeydom.
But you know, and all the mythology
around horses is obviously about
freedom, dream, empowerment, and so on.
And so it's, we know what power does
to humans, and it's impossible not to
get seduced by that to some degree.
But what brings you out
on the other side of it?
And I think.
That was immediately apparent to me
when I met Frédéric Pignon and, and
and Magali was that they had somehow
managed to achieve this mastery
without turning into arseholes.
And that when you, when you met them they
just engaged with you in this very, very
sweet and authentic and rather humble way.
And I remember thinking, how did
you get There at that stage of my
life, because I think at that stage
of my life, I wasn't quite there.
I was right at the beginning of my
adventure with autism, just coming out
of my adventure with human rights, my
first adventure with human rights, and I
was still struggling with these things.
So it, it, what do you think was the
special quality that those two brought?
Well, where does it come from?
Do you think it's just innate in them?
Or have they did that?
Is there some experience that they
went through that I don't know about?
Or, you know, because you must have gone
for the audition and gone, Oh my gosh,
these people are like, unlike anyone else.
Who seems to be out there at
that end of the equestrian world.
What's going on with this?
What do you think it was?
Kansas Carradine: Certainly, I mean,
I think the whole feel and the vibe
of it was just so much more like
I said, compassionate in general.
And back then, Fred was very much ahead of
his, you know, I can't really pinpoint it.
I don't know enough
about Fred's background.
I know that his
exploration, you'll find it.
If you have them as a guest on the
show, but I know more about his
exploration into Liberty was truly
living amongst and observing how the
horses interacted with each other.
And so when he is on stage, even
though he's the trainer, he's really
another stallion with his stallions,
and he just embodies that in his play.
And the vibe that we had around
the company is everybody truly
felt privileged to be there.
Everybody was so specialized in
their own section sector of mastery.
There was definitely a huge amount
of ego and insecurities that would
come up because everybody wants to
retain their, their, their position
and at the same time, nobody
was there to compete with Fred.
Nobody was there to compete with Magalie.
Nobody was there to compete with
those people who were, you know,
at the high level of their.
Acrobatics or their Roman writing or their
bareback writing because they had hired
all specialists in their own mastery.
There wasn't a lot of.
Competition in the normal sense, because
we all did something so different
and it arose a little bit in certain
group ensembles and numbers like that.
But ultimately, we were all respected
because we were, we had been in
the industry and in the performance
world for a really long time.
And so Fred and Magalie gave that respect.
And of course, we had it in.
10 fold for them, and they
respected the horses in such a way.
And I think that that created,
they respected the stable hands and
who the grooms were going to be.
They really took consideration to make
sure that the people that they hired to be
around the horses were also of a certain.
We could say compassionate nature.
They had a certain character about them.
That was desirable.
And so when there's that much
attention to detail to really create
the entire staff and environment,
it really makes a difference.
And it's true.
That particular 1st show was
quite unique in that sense.
You know, there was a lot of other that
ideals were still, I would say, at the
top of future creative collaborative
efforts, but the same attention to detail
was lacking when that captain of the
ship mastery was, was no longer there.
And it made sense.
I mean, they spent a good seven years on
tour and then wanted to go back to France.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
So how long did you spend
with CarVal in the end?
Kansas Carradine: I mean, it, I
started in 2004 and I was in China
in 2020 putting a show together
that was supposed to open there.
So I was with the company off and on for
many years in many different incarnations,
whether as I was hired originally as
an artist and then I had a contract
buying and training the truck riding
and Roman riding horses for the show.
And then I would.
Come in and out kind of as a backup.
So somebody got injured and then they
call me in and I would be a replacement.
And then I would help adopt horses.
I was involved with shipping
horses overseas from a California
operation, but by and large, the,
the, the, it spanned 15 years.
And then my husband is
a creator with the show.
So when I was, for example, on
extended maternity leaves and taking
care of children and homeschooling,
and that was where I put all of my
energy, I was still there on the tour.
And my husband was there six days a week
curating the artistic vision, basically.
So we were very intrinsically connected.
And
Rupert Isaacson: your kids, I presume,
grew up with that as a background.
Kansas Carradine: They did.
And the first time that I left tour was
because they weren't learning how to ride.
And I was like, my kids don't know how
to ride and here I am on this horse show.
And to be, you know, the
horses, they put so much effort.
They didn't need to pack
around kids all the time.
I didn't want to ask that of them.
And we had a lot of hot horses that
were too much for, you know, a three
year old, a five year old to get on.
So I, that.
Helped steer me to a
different incarnation.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you feel that the,
because I never saw Cavalli again after
that do you feel that that same sense
of compassion and service remained?
Or do you think it was
at a high point at that?
Particular watershed that I saw what, what
described that's a 15 year trajectory.
It's a long time to keep something
like that going in a certain way
because lots of personalities coming
in and out, you know, different
incarnations, different human.
So, so just, yeah.
Kansas Carradine: I think it
was definitely at a high point.
It was just a magical
moment in history also.
And then there was the attempt to
try and recreate it, but bigger
and bigger is not always better.
It still had the ideals.
And I think everybody who was able to be
a part of that vision felt truly honored.
Because we had high principles and it's
a human effort to navigate toward a, a
North star, or just like when you put in
your course and chart a course at sea,
it's not in a straight line, but you're
guiding toward that, that intention toward
that goal toward that higher vision.
And so we all did our best.
In the face of adversity, but there
was magic in the very beginning, and
Fred and Magalie were a part of it.
They were they are wonderful individuals.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, and there
must have been a certain amount of
that magic keeping going where you
wouldn't have stayed with it, I presume.
Or your husband.
Who I'd also like to have on the show,
because he's a very interesting chap.
If he's, if he's, if he's willing.
So, okay.
I want to move ahead a little bit
now to another chapter in your life.
So you then begin to work more
in the equine assisted field.
And this is right about the
time that you and I cross paths.
You run into someone
called Arianna Strozzi.
Strozzi, I don't know how she
pronounces her Italian American.
Kansas Carradine: She's now,
yeah, she's now Mizuchi.
Okay.
Or Mizuki, yeah.
So Arizana Mizuki.
Rupert Isaacson: Mizuki.
I want you to tell us about that.
And then from there into heart math.
Heart math is something that I
feel everyone should know about in
horseboy method, for example, when
we are doing what we call sensory
work, which just came from the way
my son used to lay on the horses.
And it was clear that his really
agitated behaviors would just go
when he did that, when he was body
to body on the horse like that.
And then much, much later after we'd
done it with a bazillion other people and
seen the same result, we talk to people
at heart math and realize, Oh, I see.
That was what was going on
with the residents of fields.
But I don't want to, I think you
should talk about this because, you
know, a lot more about it than I do.
So There's something you
talked about service, and I
read a little question here.
Is self actualization
possible without service?
And I think that it sounds like you
might have Reached again, another
watershed moment where your life then,
perhaps through your own children,
I don't know, gets taken in this
way towards a much more obviously
service oriented, um, with autism.
Talk to
Kansas Carradine: us about that.
Sure, the conversation about
service is one way to describe it.
And then the other act is,
I would say selflessness.
And so when I had children, this for
the first time really reoriented my
entire world externally to these other
beings, as opposed to internally and
just focusing on myself, my own needs.
So for the first time, what parenting
brought me is the opportunity
to know what it was like to at
moments really be truly selfless.
Because it's very rare to find
in society of it, I would say.
And these moments where you
really forget your sense of self.
So there's two aspects of it.
It's one is not being selfish or
the absence of conceit, we could
say, but there's also a sense where
your beingness or your your limited
perception of personality dissolve and
you're just thinking of being involved.
In an act and an action that's
caring for, for other, and
it can be caring for horses.
It can be caring for land.
It can be caring for just the energetic
resonance of the planet, which is
what we do a lot in heart math.
But really, that to me is a
flow exchanging going outward.
And.
I, I, I find that in my personal human
journey, there has been one layer
of it or one avenue that has become
more established or perhaps like I'm
looking at it as like the limbs of
a tree and one branch comes off and
then it becomes really strong and
that bow can support a lot more fruit.
And then there's another branch that also
becomes strong and then that bow can also
in turn support fruit that nourishes.
And so there's these different branches
of selflessness or branches of service
that I never thought that I would
be able to, that have continued.
It's like, I'm now doing performances
sometimes, but they're always for
nonprofits to really generate interest,
to raise funds and do fundraising
for other charity organizations.
And when I was able to shift
this very strongly established
pattern of wanting to receive
something from doing a performance.
Like I want to meet my
metric of excellence.
Then I would shift that into how can
I give, how can I, I want people to
feel joy and to feel enthusiasm or
feel youthfulness or feel inspiration
from watching this as opposed to
I want to tick my boxes so that I
get appreciation and validation.
So when that.
Could shift and that took a long
time again, being a child performer.
I wasn't hip to that in my twenties.
I wasn't trying to transform it then.
I didn't understand it the same way
that now it's really conscious effort
so that even before weeks, months
before I start to do a show, I'm
already starting to make sure that
the, the outflow of energy is really
caring for whatever audience that is.
It's going to show up.
And then.
My work in the nonprofit sector,
actually, it's an interesting
segue came from my association with
HeartMath, which I learned Thank you.
About over 20 years ago, before
I joined Cavalia in my spiritual
seeking, I was actually at a spiritual
teachers gathering her satsangs.
Her name is Gangaji, and she was
a disciple of an Indian mystic
known as Papaji, who was a direct
disciple of Ramana Maharshi.
And so that's that.
that lineage.
And that's that meeting, that
fated meeting of self inquiry,
which I'll never forget is where
I first learned about HeartMath.
And it was just kind of being
in the vortex of transformation.
You know, this is when I was still
doing this work with the Shumash
and right before I joined Cavalia.
Go ahead.
Rupert Isaacson: I've just got a question.
A lot of people, listeners will
not know what HeartMath is.
Please tell us what is HeartMath?
Kansas Carradine: So, let's see.
HeartMath itself is the name of a, of
an organization that has done a huge
amount of research and the, the crux
of it really started to prove that
our emotions affect our physiology.
So, it began to study the Heart rate
variability, which is really the beat
to beat changes that are emitted from
our heart, which is an electrical organ.
And those subtle fluctuations,
depending on whether we're experiencing
a renewing emotion, such as
appreciation, care, or compassion.
And then what that looks like when
we're experiencing a depleting emotion
or a feeling that is discordant,
such as frustration or anger.
And through the research, the Institute
of HeartMath has been able to really
prove, and we can see now with spectral
analysis, when we are in a flow state,
when we are in a state of love and feeling
good, really in the zone, that actually
creates an organization of our physiology.
And the term that's been
used now is called coherence.
So when we have that.
That coherence, that aligned state.
It's when we have optimal functioning.
It's when there is an organization.
I, I equate it to a 72 piece orchestra.
It's the conductor that really maintains
the harmony and can modulate with those
Allegro moments where you increase your
speed or your timing or your rhythm, as
well as those moments that are appropriate
and dynamic to be able to come into.
Quiet state.
So this is a symbolism for really
a healthy nervous system that
can both increase and be alert
and respond to the needs at hand
and then be able to downregulate.
And when there's no threat, no perceived
threat, and when things are calm, your
nervous system can go into a state of
rest and digest or really that expanded
state of, of, of awareness itself.
So, the research that has come out of
the Institute of HeartMath has been often
referenced by equine therapy programs,
as well as other, we could say kind of
quantum healing modalities throughout the
world, because it's starting to prove.
What intuitively we already knew is that
there's an energetic, there's a quantum
field that we're all connected to.
We're all broadcasting and we're
all receiving at the same time.
So then when we can start to turn the
dial manually and really have a manual
transmission on our own nervous system,
we can start to decide how we are showing
up in the world, really how we are,
what we want to resonate, what frequency
we really want to be aligned with.
And that's through the
discovery of the last.
Two decades what I've been more focused
on and now I see it as the foundational
practice and horsemanship because once
we can attune ourselves, then we can.
Really clear out any of the debris that
might be in the way of communication.
And so to have that clear dialogue
is what helps eliminate confusion.
And then we, we have those experiences
of harmony, both with our human
to human relationships, as well as
our human to animal relationships.
And the inquiry You know, heart math
was very much a part of my life,
already had been for five years before
I started going into the equine therapy.
So when I looked at the horse
as healer modalities, because it
is another shamanic experience.
I saw the, how heart math was so
complimentary, but I didn't really
know how to merge at the time.
I didn't really know
how to give it language.
And I realized now that it's kind of
been one of the ways to really prove
with science, what's going on when
we get in the energetic field with
the heart, excuse me, with the horse.
So your heart and my heart are both
producing a field that's measurable
at least three to five feet.
Secretariat's heart was.
21 pounds, so the field that
is created and generated by
the horses is so much greater.
And when we step into that, we can
have what's called an entrainment.
And there's that co regulation
and that synchronization together
and that's the beauty of.
Being able to know now why we
had so intimately been connected
with horse medicine is really
what it is, why it's working.
And I don't really care why,
but it is kind of fun to be
able to give language to it now.
I would trust it anyway.
But
Rupert Isaacson: it's good
to be able to explain it.
Because, yeah, when one's working
with programs and I go through,
you know, before we started working
with neuroscientists and who started
looking at what we were doing with
horseboy method and movement method
you know, we were always getting
those questions are basically people
coming along and say, well, tell me
why this doesn't suck then you write.
Well, you know, it's really good for you.
But then as soon as the neuroscientists
started back, I said, like, well, you
know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And that sort of ended that one.
Nicely that why doesn't
it suck conversation?
You could get onto more interesting
conversations So I think that's you
know, one of the great benefits of
heart math just for again for listeners
heart math is not an equestrian thing
But a lot of equestrian people end up
attracted to it because when you're
talking about the electromagnetic
fields of arts, we all know that we
feel really good around those great
big hearts that are pumping in horses.
Why wouldn't we?
But it's, it goes further than
that towards other electromagnetic.
Resonances like trees, like
other people, like just about
everything else on the planet,
that's putting out energy, which is
Kansas Carradine: everything.
Exactly.
The outreach of the institute
has gone to encompass all of that
as well, because in the study.
When we look at coherence and how
we affect each other there's a lot
of, there's another, our branch of
the Institute of HeartMath called
the Global Coherence Initiative.
And now it's really studying our
impact as a collective, as well as
the impact of trees and on nature and
what meditators can do in different
clusters when we're sending care to
a specific situation and how that is
reflected in the Earth's harmonics.
There's just not enough I would
say data or instrumentation yet.
We're just starting to gather all
of it to really show and prove,
yes, your energy makes a difference.
And yes, the collective energy can
also have an, have a huge impact.
And so this is a really empowering
aspect because I think a lot of
people, and I certainly have felt
this many times, we feel helpless.
Whether it's in the environmental
care or whether it's working with
humanitation issues time and time
again, and part of this is like.
The really gathering of stories that
your impact your heart, your coherent
resonance is an act of service.
So able to maintain coherence
is an act of service.
Go ahead.
So
Rupert Isaacson: people are interested.
Presumably then you're saying heart
math is a place that you can go,
whether physically or probably
online these days and get trained.
What did they train you in?
What do they train people in?
Do you come out of it with a
hot math level one practitioner,
level five practitioner?
What, what, what does it look like?
What did you do?
What do people generally do?
And then how did that take you into the
equine assisted sort of horses medicine,
equestrian therapy, equine therapy?
Kansas Carradine: Whoa.
So there's a couple of
different questions in there.
I'll answer the latter first.
So what drew me is synchronicities
as with everything.
There's breadcrumbs in life.
And a dear friend of mine had said,
you should check out this person
who's doing equine therapy work.
You might find it interesting.
And little did I know that Arianna
Strozzi would become like family.
There was just a soul
family connection there.
As I mentioned earlier, I moved in and did
the apprenticeship for, for some time now.
I had already been working with heart
math and learning about it as my own
personal tool for self development and
to deal with depression and anxiety.
So, as a younger person, I had
more symptoms of depression.
So
Rupert Isaacson: you moved in you moved in
with Arianna Strozzi You felt her as you
you started an apprenticeship with her.
What apprenticeship did you start?
Kansas Carradine: I did so really
studying always being drawn to the horse
medicine and because I had already been
introduced to Native American wisdom
and understanding there's plant medicine
and there's The rock people and there's
the medicine from each and every animal
and from the feathers themselves.
So this exploration, this deep dive,
we could say into the equine therapy
world for me was really assigning
meaning to that, which I had already.
Dedicated so much of my life to,
I wanted to find what really is in
the relationship with the equine.
And I went through, you know, a deep soul
inquiry of, can we ever ride horses again?
Is that truly right relationship?
Should they be installed at all?
I had a very difficult.
Judgment about that for some time
and then the way that I rectified it.
Rupert Isaacson: What, what, what,
what, at what point did that happen?
Because was it just having
horses in stores for seven years
going around doing the show?
Because the horses seemed in Cavale
to be actually full of well being.
So, what, what, what is it, what, what?
Kansas Carradine: So because I had
been exposed to horses almost always
being in a work environment or being
in a stable environment, I had not
been around them as much when they
were free and able to live in a herd
and specifically as a family herd.
And that's something
that Ariana showed me.
And once I saw it, I was,
it was so compelling.
It was so powerful to see these natural
family herds and to see them all living
on very steep terrain, which we would.
Be worried and be an overcare of our short
horses, you know, so that created such a.
A strong catalyst within me
that I thought, Oh, that's, it
was like throwing out the baby
with the bathwater at the time.
That's where my naivete was is saying,
how could I put any horse in stalls?
Look at what they really
belong to be free.
And, and at the same time, I had a
vision to create a show that was.
Really extrovert and explicit
about its ceremonial aspects where
the herd would be brought in.
It would be outside.
It would depict more of a Native
American environment with with horses.
So, because I had that as my, as my apex
of the experience of being with horses, I.
Had the pendulum swinging this this other
way and then through inquiry and through
understanding and through really deep
journaling and inquiry with the horses.
I saw their tremendous active
devotion and service to be.
People will say, well, the
horses don't have a choice.
And I believe that on a soul level,
each soul is really being brought into,
relationship with each other, whether
it's interspecies that they do certainly
come into that incarnation, that
embodiment and they go into the cities
and they awaken the hearts of humanity.
It's really no, nothing less than that.
And so I would agree to learn more about.
Yeah, to learn more about the magic.
That's why I was drawn to the equine
therapy work, but I was insecure at
the time and didn't feel like I knew
enough or had enough life experience to
really carry and facilitate on my own
and make that the forefront of my offer.
Ariana to me was such a shaman, you know,
how can you just take a certification for
a couple of weeks and then think that you
are going to have that same magic really.
So I never, I didn't.
Right away, start to make that my, my
offer and I went back into the performance
world, which I knew how, and then I was
still using HeartMath always as my own
really tool for therapy and understanding
how to regulate my own emotional landscape
and I became certified in HeartMath for,
to be a private coach back in 2011 and at
the time that was the way that you would
offer it was really one on one and I also
didn't do anything with it at that time.
So even though my life externally seemed
like I was, it was glamorous and I was
confident and I can hang and be brave
upside down on horses, I was still.
Insecure and not confident
to be what one might term as.
A spiritual guide or a coach for others.
It took me another 15 years really to
get enough life experience and to have
other shifts taking PLA in place in my
psyche that I could be rooted enough to
really be able to hold space for others.
And that was just part of like
ma the making of wine or just
the, the curating of ripeness.
Yeah.
Maturation.
to change about the maturation.
Exactly.
And so now since COVID, I was again,
really forced into a pivot and I became
a HeartMath certified trainer, which
basically means that you can teach tools,
the techniques, and a lot of it has to
start with a foundational practice that
is breathwork and really understanding
that when we Actively set the intention
to co create with our heart and to
breathe into the heart and chest area.
Then that right away begins to activate
the neurons that exist within our hearts.
And there's a facilitation that
begins to create again that
synchronization, that coherence.
And then there's other
tools that build upon that.
And it's really focusing on how to start
to perceive our own somatic Perceptions or
our somatic feelings as well as being able
to consciously direct our frequency and
being aware of how what we are, how we are
broadcasting, what we are broadcasting.
And then with that, with that
awareness, we, we discuss about
how to make modulations or how
to make attunements and shifts,
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
You talked about, you just said something
there, you said neurons in your heart.
I think a lot of listeners may be
aware, but perhaps some are not.
Just as a context for that your
gut, your heart and your brain
are all composed of neurons.
It used to be thought that the neurons
were just all the preserve of the brain.
It's not true at all.
And it's just, I just wanted to chuck that
in there because if someone's listening
to something like this for the first time.
What?
Hold on.
Neurons in the heart?
Yes, indeed.
Heart, brain.
So you could argue it's all one brain
or it's three brains or whatever, but
that's why gut feelings, that's why heart
feelings, that's why These things are, you
know, as valid as the intellect, if not
more so, and the intellect without them
is limited because it's not the full thing
happening that the neurons can offer.
Again, also for people that I
should have, I should have also
said Ariana Storzi, now Mizuki, it's
that's the Sky Horse Academy, right?
Why, what, and I hope to, I'd love
to get her on the show actually,
what, what is it about that because,
because, you know, there's been a
ton of equine assisted offerings.
There still are.
It's a good thing.
You know, there ought to be, but what
was it about that particular one?
Absolutely.
Kansas Carradine: I, these questions
that you ask, ultimately, I go a
lot of intuition and synchronicity.
So, you know, it's being in the right
place at the right time, doing the right
thing with the right people for the right
reasons, a lot of rights and alignments.
And I didn't know until I got in
there, it was just a feeling, right?
I wrote a letter to Ariana.
She invited me in as soon
as we saw each other.
So I was.
As I mentioned a little bit earlier,
a dear friend of mine, he was actually
interested in her partner's book,
where he was teaching Aikido to
military and when he was looking at
this person, Richard Strozzi Heckler.
He learned about Arianna and how she had
a horse ranch with self development and
he said, Oh, you should check it out.
And so when I started to explore, and
this is back in 2008, and I'd already
had my first daughter and I just left
the Cavalia tour for the first time,
did have a break back in California
after being all around the world.
And then I went out there and when
we met, it was like, Oh, she, what
the way she describes it as, Oh,
we'll be in the foxhole together.
You know, we have probably many
births together and there was just,
it was family and it still is.
And we're very dear to each other.
And I ended up moving in with my family.
They're living on the ranch for
several years and helping to co
facilitate the programs and really
just spending time, you know, deep.
And I always say at
the feet of the master.
And to answer your question, what makes
equine guided education is that model.
There's so many different acronyms
and Arianna was at the forefront of
a lot of the, the name building and
all the certification programs that
were being developed at the time.
And she always said, I hope there's a day
when there's an equine guided educator or
an equine assisted facilitator, whatever.
Acronyms you want to use on every
corner, just like you can always
find a chiropractor and acupuncturist
that it will really serve the needs
and I just feel really fortunate to
have seen that arc as we were all
in the beginning of it together.
So the difference that I would
say, or the uniqueness is Ariana,
it's not exclusive to horses.
It really is opening up to the
entire natural world and observation.
You will have messages from the wind
and from The rabbit that comes through
and the way that the sun passes,
that's all part of the equine guided
experience, the integration of equine
therapy, really understanding that
that's just the entry point into being in
relationship with the whole natural world.
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yeah.
The horses bring us into nature for sure.
What are you doing with sky
horse currently and heart math?
Where is this led you now?
As we speak.
You also mentioned that you
do do some performances.
What kind of performances
are you doing now?
And how's all that integrated?
Kansas Carradine: Sure, I still
perform my lasso, which I can
bring my ropes anywhere, and, you
know, there's actually a name in
the Divine Mothers where she who's
holding the rope of love in her hand.
So the rope of love is the Divine Mother's
way of really connecting all of us.
You know, it's really in spiral
movements that the lasso moves around.
So I still perform lasso with my
children and it'll, I can be hired.
Oftentimes I'm only giving
it to charity organizations.
So as part of a fundraiser, that's
kind of been the thing that's
happened over the last few years.
And then I haven't had horses because
I travel so much and because I really
have devoted a lot of my life to the
spiritual journey and means that.
I'm always riding for other people
or riding with other people, and
it's a great opportunity because
I ride so many different horses.
So I don't have my own trick riding
horses that I perform on, but last summer
I made, I don't know, three or four
Roman, Roman riding teams at different.
Barns and different stable stables
and different causes, and really the
bulk of my work has now become the
EGE philosophy that's been threaded
throughout everything that I do.
So that's equine guided education,
working with skyhorse as a,
as a, an instructor basically.
And I do private coaching as well as
group retreats with integrating the
HeartMath and horsemanship and the
equine guided education philosophy.
What I find.
Lately is a lot of people who want to
have a better connection with their
horses are carrying some sort of residual
trauma or residual guilt or shame that
get it's an impediment to connection.
And so 1 of the 1st things we do
is I will guide people into their
hearts and through some basic breath,
working practices breath, work
practices that will help to open up.
A compassionate space.
And that compassionate frequency
will allow for any sort of emotional
residual energy to be spun off or to
be let go of, and just really create
that sacred container, that safe space.
And then the interactions with the, with
their horses can really take a new form.
They can expand beyond, because there's
not those old patterns or stories that
might be still holding back into the past.
And that really helps, whether it's
working on groundwork, or wanting
to do something with liberty, or
doing mounted exercises, either in
dressage, or in you know, reigning
cowhorse, whatever the desire is.
It doesn't matter, but first rooting in
what is the frequency that is desired.
And then the discipline or then
the technique can be applied
after the attunement has happened
in the vibrational realm.
Rupert Isaacson: So.
If somebody wants to, are you, for
example, I'm looking at you over Zoom,
and I know you're in California currently,
are you at Skyhorse Ranch now, where
are you, and if somebody wants to come
and do these things with you, where do
they, you go into where they are, or
they come to a place where you are, how
Kansas Carradine: does it work?
Yeah.
I go to, to where I'm invited.
So I still have been living
this, you know, circus
cowgirl, gypsy life lifestyle.
And so I travel quite a bit.
I mean, I did, we haven't talked about
that at all, but I did just come back
from the Patagonia where I spent the last
month connecting with the gaucho horses.
And so that is, has been its own
other amazing shamanic experience.
But I will be at Skyhorse this
summer doing programs with Ariana.
There's a few clinics that'll be
throughout California and then a base out
of Canada, but really wherever there's
an invitation and honestly, it's, it's
much more of following the energy.
And that's also a principle of equine
guided education that in Ariana's
apprenticeship, it was like, where is
there energy and where's there's not.
And when there's a flow, and right now
there's been a huge amount of energy,
just bringing me back to my homeland,
back to California, where I've been
distanced from for quite some time.
So I've been coming back and connecting
with the land here and really finding
myself in all kinds of wonderful little
neighborhoods and stables and these.
pods, if you will, these circles of
connection, circles of compassion,
and to continue to just facilitate
so that we can let go of the judgment
that we have that gets in the way and
be compassionate for our own journey.
You know, the horses are so
infinitely compassionate.
We make mistakes.
We're going to be clumsy.
We're going to do things
without proper timing.
And oftentimes just acknowledging
that and allowing people to really
rest in that compassionate latitude,
that's a huge healing in and of itself.
And so my greatest joy is to
help facilitate those moments.
Rupert Isaacson: So, Patagonia and India.
Kansas Carradine: So
Rupert Isaacson: last year, you
know, we all know, right, that we're
at war, unfortunately, I'm sitting
here in Germany, we're at war,
and it's war is in Europe again.
And it really is.
I'm sitting, oh, just 200 meters from
where there's, I don't know, quite
a bunch of Ukrainian families and,
you know, we know what's going on.
And you found yourself in India
doing something rather extraordinary
at this historic moment last year.
Please talk to us about that.
What did you do?
And why, how did you end up
Kansas Carradine: there?
So part of the service oriented outreach
of HeartMath and specifically with a
group called the Heart Ambassadors that
I've been involved with for over a decade
is outreach internationally, both for
helping improve the status of women, as
well as working to teach emotional self
regulation to children, street children,
and Also teaching sustainable agriculture.
So there's a lot of different
avenues and all of those.
Aspects, all of those projects really
came together for an opportunity to
discuss and to give back for the G20
that took place in India last year.
So I went along as the delegate for
the FIERA Foundation and for Heart
Ambassadors, we presented along with
my daughter, which was amazing because
it was actually her inclination that.
That we went, I thought that she was
going to be going with a different
chaperone and we couldn't find one.
And so I ended up going along with her.
So the first summit that we attended was
integrated holistic health and teaching
about heart math principles and how
that can actually remove bias that is
so present because a lot of the data
that we have is also very gender biased.
At the same time, being able to have
integrated holistic health to be able to
merge both Western and, you know, Arya
Vedic and other holistic principles is
part of where the conversations were
being steered in that particular summit.
Then we also were participating
in the gender equality summit and.
Creating policy declaration and across
the board, whether it was digital
technology and security, whether it was
education or the net zero targets where
we attended the programs that were in
Sikkim, which is the northern part of
India, close to the border of Nepal,
Bhutan and China, Tibet, every single
sector said that mental health was at the
top of their list of concern and One of
the things that we were advocating for
was the acknowledgement for emotional
self regulation, both at the highest
levels in government organizations, as
well as the being at the foundation for
education in schools and employment.
So.
It was such a gift to see how we can, a
lot of people have judgment about the G20
itself and saying that it could be, it's,
it can be deemed as very ineffective.
But what happens there is that you
meet other NGOs, all the other CSOs,
the civil service organizations
that gather together who are doing
incredible work, their grassroots
organizations, connecting with them.
Created such a renewed sense of optimism
when you walk away and you see all of
these projects that are happening on the
front lines that in and of itself creates
a resonance because the optimism feeling
that we optimistic feeling that we have
that generates momentum and so the ripple
effect that is we're still feeling that.
From that incredible six weeks that
we ended up spending, I was supposed
to be there for two weeks and we ended
up staying for six and traveling from
the southern tip of Kerala, we were in
Delhi, Bhuvaneshwar, as well as Sikkim
for all of the different G20 conferences.
Rupert Isaacson: And in that time,
is there a time when you then
stand in front of Biden, Mosey,
Rishi Sunak and say, listen chaps.
I'm going to tell you about this hot math
thing, or is it more diffused than that?
How, what's the structure of it?
Kansas Carradine: Well, the process
is there's a very long bureaucratic
process of creating policy declaration
because just to give you an idea,
when the G20 took the civil, the
CSO civil service organizations as
part of the C20 branch of the G20.
And so.
That took place in Indonesia in 2022.
They had, I think, over 500
NGOs that came together for it.
And that was inclusive of all
of the different working groups.
This year, just for the integrated
holistic health in India,
they had over 800 and there's
14 different working groups.
So it's a massive amount of
input and data and contributions
and opinions that everybody is
trying to collect and assemble.
And my, extreme deep bow of
respect goes to the organizers
who were able to process.
They didn't use it.
Use AI to do this, but to really go
and listen to the concerns to the
suggestions to the policy declarations
to each and every individual who
was there gathered at the table for
the separate working working groups.
So we would gather and have
forum, and each person might
get just a minute to speak.
And then we would be crafting policy
declarations, and then it would be
whittled down to another, say, 350 words.
And then white papers could be
added, so supported research papers
could be added as an addendum.
But ultimately, there was a whole policy
declaration packet that G20 leaders
in September, after months of delegate
input, and then editing processes.
And what did,
Rupert Isaacson: what did those leaders
do with those policy declarations
that you guys provided them?
Did they use them as toilet paper?
Did they roll joints with them?
Did they actually read them?
What did they do with them?
Kansas Carradine: Well, like I
said, The end result, I think
humans, we can get quite fixated on.
You have to make a policy.
You have to make a change right now.
We want to see this
implemented immediately.
And to me, the gathering of
the group is really something
to highlight and focus upon.
They were given the policy packet
recommendations, and then there was
certain targets that they will implement.
And so, for example, by 2025, it
was, we could say, mandated that.
Emotional self regulation, emotional
self regulation tools will be taught
through all government agencies as
well as schools in the G20 countries.
Right?
So that's 1 example.
The the.
For example, the disability
working group was bracketed
underneath the gender equality.
It was kind of sandwiched in there.
And 1 of the changes that we were a
part of is that needs to be its own
separate working group and delegation.
And so that was another win that came
out of the 2023 conferences and each time
that everybody gathers, there's small.
Incremental steps toward really what we
all want to see, but the conversations
that happen around it and the connections
that are made, because ultimately it's
the people on the ground that implement.
So, whether or not it comes from the heads
of state, the people on the ground say,
oh, this is what's working in my country.
Oh, this is a great program.
Let's emulate.
Okay, let's network on this.
And then we start to really see that grow.
And that movement creates, I would
say a larger waterfall of change than
anything coming from the top down.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
And would you say that then the,
the policy recommendations that
are made, is it also way to sub
telegraphing to those leaders?
And of course the apparatus is around
those leaders, which are, as you say,
longer there than any elected official,
you know, the state department will
be the state department, no matter who
is in who the president is currently.
British Civil Service will be the
British Civil Service, no matter who
happens to be Prime Minister right now.
Is it, is it signaling to those
policy makers, listen, this is
where the zeitgeist is right now.
This is where people want to go.
So if you don't go this way, you're
sort of going against history.
If you go this way, you're going with the
constituency, and it's evolving this way.
So we recommend that you.
Do these things.
Is it sort of like
Kansas Carradine: that?
Certainly.
I mean, I think like, like I said,
with the fact that mental health came
up at the top of the list for so many.
This was an indisputable concern
that really needed to be addressed.
And so it has more gravity
associated with that.
Rupert Isaacson: That's brilliant.
Okay.
What was the name of the foundation again?
I know I'm playing devil's
advocate, but I think people need
Kansas Carradine: to hear this.
Sure.
It's the Fiera Foundation,
F Y E R A Foundation.
F Y E R A.
And the Fiera Foundation has also been
involved with the United Nations for quite
some time and speaks on the Who are they?
Commission for the Status of Women.
And why are you involved in them?
And it's started, it's a non profit that
began by my mentor through HeartMath.
And it started out She was
working, her name is Sheva Kaur.
And Sheva Is another person that you
could have on the show is is amazing.
She was working in Nicaragua during
the war and she was so impacted
by her experience there that she
wanted to be able to give back and
started at 1st, a nonprofit that was.
Just feeding and clothing and
bringing education to rural,
mostly rural street children.
And then that expanded to also creating
some sustainable agriculture programs
as well as teaching heart math.
And then that organization grew to being
able to also have programs in Zimbabwe.
Bringing clean water.
There's been teaching emotional
self-regulation to refugees in different
war torn situations, as well as working on
negotiations between Israel and Palestine.
There's an outreach that is in California
helping those who've been dealing with
disaster from fires and, and things like
that, and being displaced from climate.
Emergencies and teaching
heart math as well.
So.
If it makes sense to really bring
in the actual tools of heart
math, then that can come in.
But ultimately, we we've also learned
that just having basic needs, then you
can start to share and teach tools.
So, if the need at the time is really
just providing basic sustenance or
basic education or basic supplies so
that they can go to school, then that's
the means the needs that are met.
So there's many different, projects
that the fear foundation has been
involved in for quite some time.
Rupert Isaacson: And the fear foundation
was actually originally sending your
daughter and you were going along with
Shafira and then of course got involved.
Why
Kansas Carradine: was it
sending your daughter?
She as a youth delegate.
Okay.
How old
Rupert Isaacson: is your daughter?
How old was
Kansas Carradine: she then?
She's 18.
She's 18.
She was 17.
Yeah.
So we ended up going, going together.
I haven't traveling so much at the time.
I thought, Oh, I can't, I had
just gotten back into the country,
been gone for seven months.
And I thought, I can't leave
for India in two weeks.
But I did, and I went for, for six.
So that's part of just really following
my heart and, and being able and
willing to be of service in that way.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: So now I happen to know
that you and my great friend, Warwick
Schiller, have been down more recently
in Patagonia and you've been doing a
very fun and rather crazy adventure down
there that people call the Gaucho Derby.
Why?
It's, I know it's like a 500 mile ride
through Patagonia, which of course anyone
would want to do just for its own sake,
because it's an awesome thing to do.
Is it just.
A wealthy, horsey person's fun month.
And there's nothing wrong with that,
or is it something else as well?
What was going on with that?
Why, why were you going down
there and doing that thing?
And tell us about it.
What is
Kansas Carradine: the Gaucho Derby?
Certainly.
So the Gaucho Derby itself,
it's a 500 kilometer track.
When we were there, they decided
to explain to us all the, the truth
behind it is it's not a horse race.
It is a survivalist,
orienteering, mountaineering race.
On horses, self navigated
so there is no real trail.
You have GPS points that
you follow along the way.
There's 19 of those until
you get to the finish line.
It's supposed to be 500 kilometers,
however, work and I tracked 687.
So that's about 425 miles and
you have 10 days to complete it.
The, the leaders came in, I believe
at eight days, we came in at
nine and then the rest came in at
Rupert Isaacson: 10.
Are you like hundreds of riders strung
out over the same landscape or do you?
You all start at different
times in little teams.
How's it go?
Well,
Kansas Carradine: we all start off
this start line at the same time.
There's not hundreds of
writers from what I understand.
There's a couple hundred applicants,
but there's only about 40 writers.
I think we had 38 from several different
countries and everybody converges and
has three days of orientation that
include intense medical briefings.
And yeah, Yeah.
Understanding how to work the GPS, as
well as being able to pack all of your
equipment on your horses securely.
That was definitely tested, especially
within the 1st week or 1st few days of
riding is invariably saddle would turn.
Horses would go off and
gear would go everywhere.
So arriving early to get all of that.
Dialed in, it was really useful.
So the reason that I did it, Rupert, is
Warwick had actually invited me or told
me about it and said, Hey, would you be
interested in doing this about a year
ago when I ran into him at Aquitana?
And I thought immediately I said, no,
I don't need to put myself in that
either ego trip or kind of this race
that just seems like an adventure thing.
And I don't want to put myself
in a situation where I could
compromise my horse's welfare.
That to me was a big red flag.
Then a year passed.
I like many of us have been modulating
and I think in huge hinge points and
there's just tremendous amount of growth
taking place on the planet right now.
And when I spoke with Warwick
about it again, I thought,
gosh, what an interesting, I
learned more about the Derby.
I learned more about Stevie Della Hunt,
who was his coach, who's been down there
and she's one of the event organizers.
And I thought, and was really
captivated by the horses.
So, he said that somebody dropped out
last minute and if I was interested,
I could contact this other person.
Basically most people.
Plan for a year or more and I had
about 6 weeks to get everything
together and I had to get really
clear about why I was doing it.
And number 1 was by far to
connect with those horses.
I had heard amazing things about them
and how they have really retained their
spirit and their connection to their
authentic self and their authentic
capabilities of full Full embodiment
of the equine is just next level.
How, how those horses are so agile and
so adept at carrying humans on their
back across treacherous landscapes.
And at the same time, I also
wanted to go there to connect
with the land and to really.
I was able to get a first hand
experience about the Patagonia region.
It was the only country that I had our
continent that I hadn't really been on and
I know that the Patagonia has sensitive,
delicate, specialized landscape that I
was interested in learning more about it
and seeing what I could do to give back.
I was shocked at how many people
did not know that the Patagonia
region was in South America.
That I encountered so always wanting
to bring that back for education,
both to some of the clients and
nonprofits that I work with.
I still work with at risk youth and
different inner city context and then to
be able to share the wisdom that I felt.
Those were the two reasons that I wanted
to go there, and my experience was
exceeded my expectations in all ways.
I was able to connect with those horses
and feel, again, I talked about it
at the beginning of our discussion,
when one has safety, the resonance
of safety, when that is present,
then you can be of service to others.
And so because I felt really safe and
secure on my horses, I was able to help.
Whether it was just holding another
person's horse, because they needed
to reset their saddle or whether
it was giving extra food, because
somebody's resupply bag hadn't shown
up and just offering kind words and
guidance and support and compassion,
because everybody was tested out there.
It was really challenging
the weather, the.
Just being on demand all the time.
You're setting up your own tent.
You're riding about 10 to 12 hours a day.
You have to draw the number out
of hat for the horse that you get
and then go in and catch them.
And none of that is easy.
It went really well for me,
and I'm grateful for that.
I had a.
Fantastic experience and just
adored every 1 of my horses and
would have brought them back home.
And I also met my growth edge, which is,
in the beginning, I had also imagined
that we might be able to flow along
closer to the front of the pack and right
at the beginning work and I had decided
that we would stay with each other.
And on day 2, he actually
cut a horse out of a fence.
And so that created a little bit of a
delay as we were going into a vet check.
So we were held back and then he cut
another horse out of a fence that got.
All 4 legs stuck into some
wires and I was teasing.
Oh, I'm just going to hang around with
work while he helps rescue horses.
But he had a horse that came up lame.
And so we went all the way back and there
was a certain amount of disappointment
that I had to unpack because it sure
would have been fun to be up there
with some of our other friends.
But as.
The universe would create
a perfect situation.
We had no idea that we actually were
all going to meet because it was, you
know, 1 step forward, 2 steps back.
You never know how it was going to happen
and how people were going to reconvene.
But.
There was, there was definitely an
elasticity to, you know, who the
leaders were and, and what the metric
of success would be and could be.
And as soon, I felt really blessed
that on day 2, I had to shed that
metric of success immediately.
And so then it allowed me to just
really be open and available.
The entire experience because success
for me was being able to be present,
being able to have that security and
that connection with the horses and
to stay safe and complete it while
feeling good and and in that sense,
it was extremely successful and I
adored all of those horses and it was.
Right, good fun as well.
Rupert Isaacson: I won't tell
anyone about the fun bit.
What's the element of service that you
think you're gonna now you've had your
eyes open to this part of the world?
I know that there are, I happen to know,
because I'm involved in the conservation
world, so I happen to know that there
are large scale, large, large scale
conservation measures going on down there.
Through, you know, the company
Patagonia, the clothing company, and
all sorts of private philanthropists.
But.
What, what, you know, what,
what element of service do you
feel is your next chapter now?
It's clearly you've been drawn down there.
What, what's, what's next for you?
Are you going to do something down there?
Something
Kansas Carradine: interesting?
Well, I would like to continue to educate.
And so I would really be attracted
to bringing groups down there so
that they can see firsthand and
learn and understand the vastness.
It's really the undeveloped aspect of it.
And so there's a pristine
quality to the land and that
when we are truly removed from.
Both wifi signals, as well as cities
and roads and infrastructures, because
those roads themselves disrupt migratory
patterns, as you know, very well.
There's less development civilization.
So one can experience a lot of
stillness that is quite rare.
I find in other aspects or
in other places in society.
So there's something to be said for
just Being able to drop in deeply and
then at the same time, there's actual
opportunities for outreach that right now.
I was able to meet somebody who
is aligned with that particular
Patagonia conservations where
they're giving back land.
So they're buying massive amounts
of land and then giving it back
and creating national park systems.
And I saw some of the land that.
Is still being contested, still
estancias, and there's private
ownerships in between parks, for
example, that they want to conserve.
And there's different endemic species
that basically just need funding
to be able to research properly.
For example, there's the hooded
grid, which is a water bird that.
I think it was 40 years ago, they
had 5000 and now the numbers are
down to like 400 mating pairs.
And part of it is because of a loss
of habitat, not just because of less
snow, which those lagoons create
a specific environment, but also
the introduction introduction of
invasive species, the American mink.
That really does a number on the
population, but being able to
bring awareness to that and say,
oh, there's things that we can do.
We just need to be able
to get more research.
We need to have a little bit more
support down here so that we can, make
an impact, it can happen right now.
Right now, a time is of the essence.
And then there was also another endemic
species a type of chinchilla that has been
hunted both for its fur and for its meat.
And those are also protective in those
conservation lands, which you know,
Douglas and Chris Thompson were very.
A Tompkins, excuse me, we're
very instrumental in creating
that particular sanctuary.
So, I have always said, I just want to
align myself to really be an instrument.
And if that is just to be able to create
a pathway of information to start to
come back and then be able to show people
firsthand how they can make an impact.
It's about education and creating
educational opportunities.
I had discussions with somebody who
was actually the, secretary of the
environment for the Santa Cruz state
and already has a lot of ideas to
educate the local community, but just
needs some help with, like, developing
apps and being able to create a kind
of the technology to support around it.
So, I'm interested in collaborating
with some of my friends that are in tech
to see if we can do that to help him.
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.
So you're going to be doing
more stuff down there.
Kansas Carradine: I'd like to
absolutely sounds like I just
got back like a couple weeks ago.
So, I mean, I think I
came back eight days ago.
So this is very recent.
Rupert Isaacson: And you're also doing
stuff that's much more close to home.
For example, you know, you sent
me a link, which I'd seen of you
doing work with the Compton Cowboys.
Those again, listeners that
don't know what that is.
That's an in city Los Angeles.
We all, you know.
Straight out of Compton, et cetera,
rap, but with that comes, of
course, inner city unpleasantnesses.
And they have a long standing equestrian
project there called the Compton Cowboys.
I know you've been involved with them.
That's quite recent.
Can you tell us a little bit
about that and that sort of work?
Kansas Carradine: Sure,
yeah, it's a friend of mine.
Actually, she has headed up
the show jumping arm of it.
And so for the last 15 years, the
children who's really put their time
into the program and show a high
level of commitment actually get it
and the opportunity to compete in.
Hunter jumper and show jumping at a very
high level because of the endowment and
the donations that have been given because
ultimately, as, as, you know, it's a very
difficult for it to penetrate, even if
you're a middle class and right now to
be able to give that it's an opportunity
to not only create more diversity in it,
but I think anybody can attest there's.
There's a huge amount of self
mastery that one can learn also when
being in partnership with a horse
in that powerful and over fences
and in a competitive environment.
So what I've been able to do is spend
some time with both the beginners down in
Compton that are just learning the basics,
just balance and handling and horsemanship
and horse care, as well as those that
are in the, the youth show jumping team
to help them understand about what.
Their energy brings into the interaction
with the horse and to start to perceive
again, a wider view a bigger picture, if
you will, or a bird's eye view of how we
relate to these species and how we can.
Honor and respect and treat all of
our interactions with them as sacred.
This is really what, what I do every time
I, I interact with anybody in regards
to horses is just help them remind and
cultivate visceral experiences that
they can remember to bring more sacred
sacredness into their interactions.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting
that that's where we started.
I mean, when you were talking about, you
know, Cavalia would show up in the cities.
And I remember, yeah, in Dallas where,
where you guys were performing, it was.
Very much in the city.
And we used to do, and bringing
that magic we used to do that a lot
in the early days with Horseboy.
We would go and set up in
city parks in Austin, Texas.
And we'd just show up with the horses
in a trailer, show up by a playground,
and the kids would just go, and
we'd just start working with them.
Because it was, it was, you know,
just the riding down the street, just.
I remember that when I was a little
boy in London, just the appearance of a
horse and you know, reality of change.
So this thing about the shifting of
reality is sort of where I want to, I
could, I could go on for another hour,
but I know you're tired and I would
like to have you back on because there's
actually a lot more I'd like to ask you.
But you're, you're, you're
clearly somebody who has lived.
consecutive and parallel lives.
And one of the questions which I often
get and which I often hear posed to people
like that is, how do you find the time?
And one of the, you said something in our
preamble before we hit the record button.
So I just want to have you
speak to this a little bit.
And I loved what you said,
it's in a quote, so this is
a quote from Kansas Caroline.
It's, time itself is up for inquiry.
Tell us, tell us what you mean by that.
Kansas Carradine: Well, I, we, you and
I both have spent a fair bit of time,
Rupert, in Indigenous communities.
And anyone who has will notice
that the Western concept of time
is very fixed and inflexible.
In a way, and it creates
this sense of pressure.
It's also something that I speak to
a lot when we're working with horses.
Anytime you start to put this idea of,
Oh, I want to get faster, whether it's
in calf roping or whether I need to get
done because I have a dentist appointment.
Those are both ways that.
Time synthetically dilutes
really the experience or kind
of corrodes the experience of
relationship and being present.
It's toxic time, almost, yeah.
It creates it, yeah, it's like there's
a pervasive toxicity that comes into it
and when you spend time with time, with
native people and in, on the reservations
and with indigenous communities,
you start to realize that time is.
When it feels right, as opposed to
because of a number on a digital clock
or the, when a hand moves to a particular
position and there's a beauty to that
because with it comes relaxation and with
that relaxation, there's an openness.
We think of it as, like, there's a
breath that decontracts and when we
have that true presence, awareness,
relaxation, it can create an open
up to other possibilities and.
I find that my relationship with
time was different because being an
artist, you don't have to clock in,
clock out in the same way and working
with horses, I didn't have to follow a
fixed instructor program where I said,
okay, I've got a 30 minute lesson.
Okay.
I've got another 30 minute lesson.
And it wasn't as fixed.
If I was working with a horse and
everything was accomplished in 15 minutes,
then we would allow that to settle.
And if it took two hours,
then that was okay, too.
So being able to have that freedom
is definitely something that comes
of privilege, but it allows for a
different communication to unfold.
And that elegant unfolding also is present
in our lives when we can slow down.
And my children, I would say, and being a
homeschooling parent, and being with them,
Child time or horse time and nature time.
It all just allowed a little
bit more of an expanded space.
I chose deliberately not to engage in a
lot of social media for the last 15 years.
I'd say I chose to then because only
recently in the last two months since
the Gaucho Derby, I have entered on to
it a little bit, but that freed up a
lot of time because I was never posting.
I was never scrolling on those
type of things and my children,
for example, didn't have phones,
like my older daughter is now 18.
She didn't have a phone at all until
she was 16 and at the time it seemed so
So bizarre, people just really didn't
understand it, but it allowed us to
really drop in deeply with each other and
be present with each other more often.
And I think that that has
Contributed to finding more space
for that, which is meaningful.
And now, when I notice that rushed
energy coming in immediately, I'll have
the reflex to try and create that decom
track, trying to create that expansion.
We shared about this at the beginning
of the call, but there's a friend
of mine who works in indigenous
communities in Thailand and the
government was trying to schedule a
tourist a tourist calendar that would
allow them to proceed to observe these
cultural events that were taking place.
And so they asked the
elders when they would.
When they could put it on the calendar,
basically, to which they replied,
well, there is no calendar for it.
It's not by the moon.
It's just when it's time.
It's just when it feels right.
And to, I mean, just imagine
that for a moment, what would
it be like to go through life?
And decide to bring a teaching forward,
for example, when it feels right,
not because the clock has ticked or
because this is the next thing in
the order of a very linear process.
It would create a whole
different experience.
And so, the more that we can find
opportunities for going by feel, As
opposed to just going by, you know,
the intellect, the logic, or this
time construct, it gives us at least
a little bit of a balance because,
yes, we do need organization in life.
It's not about, I mentioned
earlier this term, throwing the
baby out with the bathwater.
It's about finding the blend, the both
and, but the, The inquiry of how can I
have a different relationship with time?
How can I recognize and befriend that
idea of going with feel as opposed to the
metric of measurement that is is relative?
Would you
Rupert Isaacson: say, would you,
is it fair to say that what you're
effectively, one of the things you're
effectively saying is in order to
Create more time to do more things.
You don't need to speed up.
You need to slow down.
Kansas Carradine: I like that That's gonna
be the quote for our call Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And that's such a beautiful,
this is a beautiful statement
for horses because we have this.
Opposing idea that we need to rush
in and save something, you know,
when things get big and there's
an accident and whatnot, we think
we need to rush around and fix it.
And it's opposite.
If you feel that need to rush in,
really take that extra pause and come
back and come to a place where we're
responding as opposed to reacting.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Past, present and future all
together at the same time.
You know, this.
I, I, I, well, in my own
equestrian endeavour.
More and more I don't like to, I try
not to use the word working my horse
anymore, you know, I've got to go
work on my flying change, I've got to
go work, it's like, I'm not working,
I'm playing, I'm playing, and this
horse is generously, you know, playing
with me, could be doing other things.
And as you say, connecting me to nature
because I'm there I am on my horse, so
I might be doing some dressage thing or
something, but then I'm also looking up
at the birds and I'm also noticing how the
clouds go across the sky and I'm thinking
about the weather system that's coming in.
And I'd be doing that if I was
walking on the land as well.
I like to be on the horse,
so I'm more likely to be on
the land if I'm on the horse.
And it, then I'm going to notice
and notice and notice and notice
and notice where the mice have gone
because they leave their trails in the,
in the sand by the arena and so on.
Then you're thinking mouse,
then you're thinking, you know,
insect, then you're thinking.
And it was, it was lovely the other
day we were quote unquote, working on.
Something or other contact, I think, in
a workshop, and I noticed that several
of the people's attention had strayed
as I was trying to explain something,
and I looked, I said, what are you,
what are you looking at down there?
They just found a very
early season bumblebee.
Who was out, who'd come out
of hibernation a bit early,
and they'd called her Barbara.
And they were trying to, they
were trying to make sure that
Barbara didn't get too cold.
And I was like, this is absolutely
what we should be doing right now.
Absolutely.
You know, and you could see the
horses going, yeah, absolutely.
You should go do that.
We'll still be here.
Go attend to that bee.
And then suddenly there was all this
metaphor for what is contact, what is
contact, contact is contact with the
planet, contact is, you know, and but, you
know, in my, in a previous incarnation,
I might have gone, Oh, my gosh, these
people are paying me to be here.
I've got to deliver this,
you know, contact thing.
And.
Now it's much more, well, gosh, no,
this is what's happening right here.
The horses have led us here.
This is a wonderful thing.
But really we're just playing.
I feel that playfulness, you know, that
all the time that I've spent living with
hunting and gathering cultures, which
is sort of the blueprint of humanity.
It's a supremely playful.
way of existing that they
don't talk about work.
You know, we thought it
must be so hard to survive.
Yes.
If they've been kicked off their land.
Yes.
If their resources have
been depleted, sure.
But if, if, if humans are in areas where
the resources are abundant, which is
of course, the entire planet, really,
it's just that, you know, lack of,
you know, scarcity has been created.
The original affluent cultures,
you know, there is this time
that we often associate with.
material wealth, because material wealth
can buy one time, but then, of course,
one has to go look after that wealth.
And I suppose you could say
a hunter gatherer has to also
conserve their environment, but
that, and that's very joyful work.
Is it work?
Is it even work?
Why are we, you know, so we do,
are we really born to work or
are we born to play and explore?
Be in relationship.
And that's about it.
And I think you're what you said
is time itself is up for inquiry.
Sort of brought those
things into focus for me.
So I'm really grateful you said that.
Kansas Carradine: Yeah, it's it's
the ongoing aspects and the layers.
I think of perception as well.
Continue to unfold and as the veils go
back and you know, there's different
learnings that we'll have maybe had
20 years ago and then they come back
and they teach you all over again.
So, in that sense, time is, is
truly here always and really making
a commitment to staying as present
as we can to not be stuck in those
thoughts of future anticipation or
reactivity from past imprinting.
It requires a certain amount of
awareness and, and in a way discipline
because there's these well worn grooves
of, well, this is what I always do,
or this is where I need to go down.
This is where my thoughts naturally flow.
And then to have that.
Awareness and really stop
that before it starts again.
We can go back to the horse interactions
where people eventually over time begin
to notice what happens before the change
the signals of communication, whether
it's if you're on the ground and you're.
just getting ready to find out if you
have permission or consent to be able to
catch a horse, just before there's the
acceptance or the actual big movement,
there might be a breath or there might be
a change in the tension around the eye and
starting to recognize all that, and then
we could argue that the imperceptible,
that's just relying off of visual imagery.
There's other things that are less
measurable and More of the subtle as
opposed to the gross that are around
us all the time and that can only
happen when we're really truly present.
Rupert Isaacson: What comes through what
you're talking about, everything that
you've described, and I've been writing
down, you know, apprenticeship, mentoring
moving in with sitting at the feet of the
master, allowing oneself to be mentored.
This is a.
Difficult thing, you know, for a
lot of us service, what seems to be
synthesized out of those words is joy.
And it seems to me that, you know,
we talk about self actualization, you
know, in this show, just that, that was
the theme, but really, what is that?
But joy, what is that?
But a joyful life, and it seems that
that is what you have been involved
with really from the get go and that.
Whatever, you know, dark nights of
the soul, you might have gone through
from one incarnation to another
incarnation that seemed, you know,
the bringing of joy, going back to
Kabbalah, going back to that thing you,
you, you were bringing a palpable joy.
Into those communities and it seems that
you have kept right on going with that.
Mm
Kansas Carradine: hmm.
Well, like you mentioned,
there's an evolution with it.
I would definitely say, and I mean,
I could do the Derby with joy.
I had so much joy.
It was, it was almost People were
teasing me because I would just be
laughing my way through all of this.
And, and It's because I met so many
parts of myself that were fractured
and disharmonious and all of it really
had to do with either pleasing other
or being worried about approval.
The insecurity that comes with self
judgment and self criticism, which
is why the thing that I find I can
really help and be of service to teach
is to help let go of our judgments of
ourselves and to be more compassionate
to our fellow earth travelers.
Rupert Isaacson: The travel aspect there,
you know, that's I was just flapping
my hands for the listeners that can't
see and I did a little clappy thing.
So I got excited what you were saying
that the reason I got excited was,
you know, as you were describing your
journey across Patagonia, of course, what
that sounds to me like is pilgrimage.
And I am more and more of the conviction
that, because we are hunter gatherer
people, we're not necessarily nomads
in that, hunter gatherers are more
circular nomads, they tend to, as you
know, occupy different hunting and
gathering camps in a sort of a circular,
seasonal round rather than a, you
know, we just sort of wander aimlessly
at will, that people misunderstand
I think what nomadism is, but.
Nonetheless, it's deeply rooted in us to
move over the land in deep relationship
with it and It sounds like very much
that's what you did down there and that
I think it's very hard to be a joyful
human if you're not doing that and you
don't have to go as far as Patagonia.
You don't have to do the Mongolia
thing that I did or whatever.
You don't have to do that at all.
It can be very much in the backyard.
You can, you can go up in Santa
Monica mountains right now.
You can go walk along the beach.
You could do, you could go to your local,
you know, if you're sitting in England.
You can go walk the Ridgeway, the ancient
chalk track going across the, the Connect
Stonehenge and all of these other things.
You can, you, you know, you can
drive there and take a train
there and walk up there and walk
it for half an hour, you know?
Mm-hmm.
The connection with the ancestors
that, that, that the, the earth
is the bones of our ancestors.
It's the dust of, it's the actually died
there and they actually composed of them.
And of course any indigenous person would
say, well, yeah, of course we divorced
ourselves from that in our culture.
So I think.
You know, when I was groping for
what's the value of going into
something like the, the, the Derby?
Well, of course, you, you pilgrimage,
you pilgrimage to another area,
one of the last intact ecosystems,
wild areas of the planet that could
sure use our attention and help.
And by pilgrimaging there,
you'll go into service to it.
Kansas Carradine: So, yeah,
I want to say one thing too.
I'm so glad that you brought that forward
that when I was down there, it also gave
me a huge appreciation for what is in
my homeland from my particular place
where I was set down on this planet.
This is Turtle Island here.
I'm currently in an area that is
unceded land of the Paiute and Washoe
people, and every time I began my
online courses or in person clinics
we give a land acknowledgement.
So the connection to where you are
right now on the planet is Everything
you don't have to go outside of
yourself or outside of your own city.
And part of the beauty of when I was
traveling for work in all of these
different in urban areas is it helped
me find the connection to nature in a
city car park in the busyness of, you
know, the bus transit and all of that, we
don't have to only be in national parks.
It's a wonderful thing when we have
the opportunity, cause it gives us.
different expanded idea of divinity,
but those same trunks that when I was a
little girl were that were so captivating.
Those are present in many different
urban environments as well.
Yeah.
How are
Rupert Isaacson: the pigeons flying?
How are the raccoons?
Flipping across your view
at night as you drive.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Kansas Carradine: How a dandelion
can push through the concrete and has
no recollection of being oppressed.
It just reaches the sun.
Rupert Isaacson: It's just.
And if it does get
oppressed, it doesn't care.
It comes up again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Kansas has been brilliant.
Look, I think we should draw it to a close
here, but I, if you would, I would like
you to come back on, 'cause there's quite
a few things more I'd like to ask you
around your work for people to find you.
What are the resources if people
want to study with you, if people
want to do things, can you reel
off the websites and emails
Kansas Carradine: please?
Certainly, yes.
So circus cowgirl.com has the
best way to contact me, then
circus and then cowgirl Circus.
cowgirl.
com.
And there's also a Circus Cowgirl
Facebook page now, which is
my sojourn into social media.
And I'm always available for one to one
on one communication because for me,
what I believe is that the interaction,
like you and I are having the live
interaction is, you know, it's like a
lot of the courses that I do, I don't
like to record them because I feel like
it can be taken flippantly or we can.
listen to the recording without the same
amount of attention that we do in presence
than when we are live interaction.
So being able to have that reach out,
ask me a question, ask me anything, I
really like to be available for both
private one on one coaching or coming out
in person and doing an in person clinic.
Rupert Isaacson: And that, you can
be people, if they want to learn more
about heart math, if they want to learn
more about the again, give it the name.
Fiera Foundation.
Kansas Carradine: One more time.
The Fiera Foundation.
F Y E R A.
Fiera.
Fiera Foundation.
Absolutely.
Please spell it again.
F Y E R A.
ERA Fiera
Rupert Isaacson: Fiera Foundation.
Kansas Carradine: And if they
want, and it's fiera.org.
Dot
Rupert Isaacson: org.
Fiera do org.
F-Y-E-R-A, HeartMath Institute.
People want to know more about that.
Where do they go?
Kansas Carradine: That's also
heartmath.com or heartmath.org.
There's tons of resources, peer reviewed
research articles free educational
material, as well as the more.
embodied courses for certification
that are all available through there.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yes.
And then obviously Skyhorse Academy for
Kansas Carradine: Arianna.
Mentorship with Arianna Mazzucchi.
Yes, absolutely.
Skyhorse
Rupert Isaacson: Academy.
Skyhorse Academy.
And then if people want to email you
and set something up with you, they
can, they can just, there's an email on.
circuscowgirl.
com.
Kansas Carradine: Yes, you can
contact me through the website.
That's the easiest way.
Or you can also just send me an
email at info at circuscowgirl.
Rupert Isaacson: com.
info at circuscowgirl.
com.
Kansas Carradine: Yes.
Thank you so much, Robert.
It's been over a decade.
This, this conversation has
been percolating in the field.
Rupert Isaacson: No kidding.
I mean, when I first met you there,
there was no Horseboy Method.
I was just, I just published the book
and Made the film about being in Mongolia
with my son and I didn't know that it
was going to take off in this way and
that we were going to create an equine.
Yeah, I, I, I knew that I wanted to
give back and I knew that I was going
to create a place where I could offer
other families and kids the same
chance for the magic that my son had.
Found but I didn't know it would do what
it did and I remember with you I could
tell at the time that you were also in
a slightly liminal place I think you
were you were at that you had you'd
recently left Cavalia and you were Looking
towards where you were going to go next.
It's Extraordinary now to meet
you say well, you've been up
to some busy shit, haven't you?
And it's joyful shit
Kansas Carradine: It is a lot of joy.
Yeah, letting go of our shit and looking
at our shit and shoveling shit, they're
all wonderful ways to cultivate more joy.
That's true.
A few
Rupert Isaacson: diapers
along the way, yep.
Kansas Carradine: Oh, plenty of those.
Lots of, especially for, yeah,
cloth nappies in my world.
Well, yes,
Rupert Isaacson: that's hardcore.
That's a podcast in and of itself.
All right.
Well, listen, thank you again.
If it's all right with you, I'll
be in touch about going further
into some of these themes.
And I don't know if you know, we
also have another, another podcast
called Equine Assisted World.
So perhaps you could come on that
and talk much more in depth about
the actual therapies and equine
assistive work that you're doing and
others that we should be aware of.
I'll be in touch about that shortly,
probably as soon as I click end.
Kansas Carradine: Okay.
Yeah, no problem.
And thank you for all the service that
you're doing and sharing these ideas and
disseminating information and holding
the resonance that you do for the field.
It's wonderful.
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.
It's a, it's a conversation I think
we all have benefited from and
want other people to benefit from.
So, you know, it keeps it live.
All right, then I'm going to
hit this dreaded red button.
Is there anything before I hit
the dreaded red button that you?
Feel that we didn't say
that you'd like to say.
Kansas Carradine: Oh, I'm so
grateful for the time that we've
had and I know that we'll find many
more things to discuss next time.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm grateful too.
Gratitude is actually what I'd
like to talk about on the next one.
So awesome.
All right.
Thank you for joining us.
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