For 2026, Don’t do more - Do better (w/ Koen Stam from Personio)

Most teams think the answer to growth is simple. Add more. More markets, more products, more layers, more plays. The layer cake approach.

It almost never works.

It adds complexity, drains focus, and breaks what was already working.

In this episode, Toni Holbein and Personio's Koen Stam talk about a better path. Instead of piling on new initiatives, fix the foundation. Improve the things that already drive revenue. Tighten ICP. Narrow focus. Sell better. Enable buyers. Strengthen the ecosystem around you. Document the process so the business does not depend on a few heroes.

Do less. Execute better.

This episode is brought to you by ZoomInfo, the Go-To-Market Intelligence Platform. ZoomInfo gives you high-quality B2B data and sales intelligence on in-market buyers across companies of all sizes, powered by AI-driven automation with integrated outreach tools to help your GTM teams build pipeline and close deals faster.

Check them out at zoominfo.com/revenue-formula

Want to work with us? Learn more: revformula.io

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (04:37) - Addressing the Great Pipeline Starvation
• (07:22) - Challenges of the Layered Approach
• (14:58) - Understanding Revenue Sources
• (19:19) - Data-Driven Decision Making
• (24:36) - The Parking Lot Exercise
• (27:43) - Vanity in Expansion
• (30:28) - Understanding Y our ICP
• (31:43) - Building a Target List
• (34:23) - Enabling Buyers
• (38:51) - Leveraging Ecosystems
• (43:55) - Process Over People
• (48:35) - Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up

Creators and Guests

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

Guest

Koen Stam

Go-To-Market Enthusiast & Leader | Community Builder @Pavilion | Head of Benelux @Personio

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

TRF - Dont do more, do better
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[00:00:00]

Introduction
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Toni: Hey everyone, this is Toni Holbein. You are listening to the Revenue Formula. In today's episode, we're talking to Koen Stam again from Personio, and we are focusing on your terrible 2026 plans. Instead of adding more layers to your go-to market, we're talking about that you need to make what you've already built better.

And now enjoy the show.

Koen: How are you going to nail next year? And then typically what you hear is like, Hey, let's go off market. Let's add a new product. We are very good in our own country. Let's add that new country people have the tendency to always think about. New initiative and new programs,

Toni: people continuously underestimate the additional complexity that comes from executing well on those multiple layers that you kind of, you know, smear on top and smear on top and smear on top

Koen: right, but the moment you're going to pull resources.

From what I would call your current or your core functioning, go-to market [00:01:00] programs, motions initiatives. If you pull them away and you put 'em on the new bet, something will happen with your current, like your revenue bucket, which you, which actually is very predictable. So maybe you put all your efforts in that new play, but then your, your core layer where you, where which is actually really predictable because that has shown, um, starts to, to get sha a little bit shaky.

Toni: We have here today with our Koen again. Again, Koen from wonderful Amsterdam, uh, curly today. Calling from the office right from, from, from the shop,

Koen: from a rainy gray. Amsterdam. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. There you go.

Toni: Koen. So, um, before we jumped on this call, uh, you just told me that you came out of a planning session with, was it, was it six different leaders and you're going through all the different details and tweaking all the different things you have to love your, and you said you were extremely excited about it.

Tell me more about that before we jump in.

Koen: I mean, every leader, especially when we are right now, like in Q4, you want to focus on getting your year done right? Like, and it's always this balance being short and long [00:02:00] term. And I think. It is so important to still spend significant of time understanding where you can land for next year and really making sure for the different teams and how you're cross collaborative working, that the plan is in place and the plan is attainable.

Because I think that's like a really, really important element where so many companies have gone wrong the last couple of years. But again, I don't have to tell you, like also I've been like a revenue leader in so many companies that balancing between, hey, we need to kneel the the, the current Q4 when it comes to your close one.

You still want to build a decent pipeline because Q1, I mean it also, you also need to start a year on the, in, in the right pace and then planning for the entire next year. I mean, that balance on itself, that's, uh, it asks a lot from leaders, but I think as well, like from, uh, and again, like for myself, uh, as uh, a more senior leader, but I think as well from the first line leaders and, and, and, uh, one thing which I really liked, and I know how you did it in the past, but like, I think there's always this question to what extent.[00:03:00]

Top down and bottom up. But I think what we did this year, our sales, where I really, actually really like that model, even though it cost myself also a lot of time like. Really involving like this bottom up. So our first line leaders, our second line leader, our third line leaders, and then like our top leaders, like from a CO perspective, um, Sean do from, from, uh, director of Rev, senior director of revenue up to like the CEO in this case, and CFO.

But like everyone is involved in a planning, everyone can have a say. So eventually you already become part of this plan. I think that's, it's really time consuming a lot. Therefore also I just came outta a meeting on a Friday in the afternoon, and I typically say Friday afternoon, she should not like, have these kind of like meetings when it comes to deep into numbers on, on the Friday afternoon.

Just like the same like hiring for new interviews. If I would do an interview, I would never do that on a Friday afternoon because you're typically cooked. But again, it's so important. So yeah. Uh, it was an interesting exercise.

Toni: I think it's really difficult to balance this out, honestly, because it's so easy to start the next year on the back foot and just be behind the whole [00:04:00] year.

Um, if you don't already prepare, like that's terrible. But also, um, I've, I've seen this myself, like not only frontline, but also myself. It's like, um, you know what, 99% of my focus on landing Q4. It's, it's really difficult to squeeze all the rest into the 1%, right? Yeah. Um, yeah. But since we are on the, on the topic of looking into the future and planning, we're not gonna talk about planning here today, by the way.

No. Everyone that's still with us that, you know, has a, like, nope. Not, not Toni and planning today. Um, we're actually not gonna talk about that, but I think what's really interesting and we want to talk about is, um, how to tackle.

Addressing the Great Pipeline Starvation
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Toni: I think what we're all seeing, um, you know, sometimes I refer to it as the, um, you know, the great pipeline starvation.

Some people call it the GTM slowdown. You know, everyone is finding their own little buzzword around this, right? And, and you can see it in a negative way and it's like, ooh, everything is more difficult. Or you can see it in a positive way and it's like, Hey, let's be better in the future. Let's push, let's, let's push harder, [00:05:00] let's drive faster.

Let's kind of get this thing done. And really kind of how to achieve that and, and kind of think about this for next year. That's actually what we wanted to talk about today. Today. Cool.

Koen: Which is also very important because you can plan, but if you don't know what you need to enable or do better, do more or need to initiate, then we also never get towards our growth issue as a company.

So, no, and that's also I think, a very important one. I just getting back towards our conversation of Q4. Yes. You are so much focused on the balance of, okay. How are we, um, going to end Q4. Mm. But Q4 will be over and, and on the first or the 2nd of January, when we start over again, we are at zero again. So we need to have our plans in place and for all of our companies who have growth ambitions, and we still have growth ambitions because the number one driver is still top line growth.

Mm-hmm. We need to understand where are we going to put the focus? What are we going to do new, what are we going to do better? Maybe what we're going to stop? And then you really talk about the go-to market programs, the initiatives. [00:06:00]

Toni: So let's jump into that. And this is obviously disconnected from Personio, right?

So there's not, not a chat about what you guys are doing at Persona. I think we're talking a little bit more generalistic about the whole thing. Um, you know, what is it, what is it that you're hearing and seeing kind of what is the standard reply when someone says like, Ooh, next year we need to grow more.

Um, what is every, what is everyone currently saying? What's the, you know, quote unquote old playbook of Yeah. Uh, of everyone.

Koen: I think it's always logical for any of us, whether it's yourself or if you ask me the same this question or I ask anyone in the room also, um, um, other go-to market leaders, how are you going to nail next year?

And then typically what you hear is like. Hey, let's go off market. Let's add a new product. Let's maybe consider we are very good in our own country. Let's add that new country. Or let's add this extra piece of, um, a we need more pipeline. Let's just, and we are quite good on the inbounds. Let's start with [00:07:00] outbounds.

Like there are all these kind of motions, um, or go to market initiatives, which are, and I always say net new edit. In terms of programs, I think that's the normal response. If you ask, what will we do next? People have the tendency to always think about new initiative and new programs. Yes. And it's I think, a really logical,

Challenges of the Layered Approach
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Toni: and, and I think this, I mean, I call this the layered approach.

I've been subject to this myself. Um, we were going through, you know, selling the company and then people wanted to see how we're gonna hit a certain, you know, revenue goal. Mm-hmm. And the easiest way to explain to them is by giving them that layered approach. Right. So, hey, we have this channel working right now, it's gonna produce so much.

Instead of having really difficult conversation with them, you know, it doesn't matter if it's in a sales, you know, you selling the company or you're selling your plan to the CEO. It doesn't matter which scenario you pick, but it somewhat always seems [00:08:00] so more logical and simple. To say, um, or to argue a case by saying, we're gonna do another layer and another layer and another layer, and then we have a layer cake and that layer cake, it's gonna be bigger and bigger.

Right? I think this is where this is coming from. I think kind of, if you go through each layer by itself, it feels very comfy to kind of assume like, oh, we can probably get another million from here. Uh, we can probably get another couple of million from here. Right.

Koen: I think it comes down Toni there as well, like.

Towards this exercise which we're doing, Hey, we already have 10 mil. If we do another product, another market, extra SDR, hey, that has CAPA capacity, that has coverage, okay, we can add another, uh, 1 million there. We can, ah, this actually chimes up from 10 and we can be end of year at 15 million by adding those layers.

And of course, in a theoretical model on itself, if everything works. As intended in your spreadsheet with all respect there. But that's, I mean, and I've been there and done [00:09:00] that, right? It's like I've done this multiple times, always thinking like, hey, adding those layers and those, add that revenue components there.

You have to plan

Toni: and maybe, you know, for people that, you know, watched this on YouTube, we can plug the, um, the show that we did with you and Hannu, I think a month or so ago. We did also talk about. It gives you kind of the, the complexity that's creeping up and the complexity is really the, um, the weight that's pulling you back, the friction that's coming, that you are in, in your planning motion.

You're kind of. Happily and conveniently unaware of, right? You kind of know like, oof, you know, this enterprise thing is probably gonna be difficult. I kind of theoretically know long sales cycle and so we need the soc two thing. I mean, maybe some product features, but hey, we can all get this done. We can all get, this is no problem.

We, we can put a million for this in. Right? And, and then obviously when reality hits and you actually need to execute this, you realize how much more difficult this actually was than, than what you kind of planned before. Right? I really think, [00:10:00] um, people continuously underestimate the additional complexity that comes from executing well.

Not just executing, but executing well that produces outcomes on those multiple layers that you kind of, you know, smear on top and smear on top and smear on top. Right. Would you agree? Is, is that, is that the main thing? Do you see another thing that people are kind of turning a blind eye to that that is basically kind of ruining this whole layer cake idea?

Koen: Yeah. Yeah. Because, and do you think you can add those layers? But indeed, in order to get that piece of additional revenue, which you put in your spreadsheet, you need to execute that additional layer Well. I think as well, like what we tend to forget is actually two components. Cost and people first cost like investment.

Do we actually have the budget? Um, in order to facilitate that, that, that, that extra move, whether this is a big marketing campaign, hiring this extra SDR going up marketing, just put your bets on. A new AE [00:11:00] will be proven, uh, with a big logo company to sell, uh, enterprise. And you're going to start with that person.

Um, I'm adding new products and you need like all those, those, those costs, um, uh, involved to get there. Do we have those budgets? Right? That's like one thing. Then a second thing is, wait, who is going to do this? The moment and then you can have like a layer cake. But the moment you're going to pull resources from what I would call your current or your core functioning, go-to market programs, motions initiatives.

If you pull them away and you put 'em on the new bet, something will happen with your current, like your revenue bucket, which you, which actually is very predictable. So actually you pull that person out or persons and it all of a sudden. Becomes a little more shaky. So maybe you put all your efforts in that new play, but then your, your core layer where you, where which is actually really predictable because that has shown, um, starts to, to get shaky, a little bit shaky.

Toni: I, I like that. [00:12:00] I like that. Basically saying like, Hey, you, um, you're taking that portion for granted, so to speak, right? It's like, sure, yeah. That revenue's gonna come in. Um. We don't need our quote unquote best brains on that. We're gonna put them on the next thing. But actually it doesn't work like that.

Right. Kind of even to get to this predictable outcome, you still need all the brain power that he had attributed, you know, previously. Right. And I think I, I think at the end of the day, I, I don't think we will change the, you know, hearts and minds of CEOs and CROs and kind of say like you, oh, you know what?

We actually need to kind of do this differently. I think what we can achieve here today is for folks to, um. At least give it, you know, a second thought, like after they, they're kind of locked in on this enterprise thing. Kind of give it a second thought whether or not that is the right next move. Right.

But let's move on to the, okay. So that, that's kind of the old way of doing this. Just adding more stuff. Um, what, what is the solution here from your perspective? Because you still need to grow more. I mean, you, you, you're a senior [00:13:00] sales person. Um, they're not gonna go like, oh, you know what, Kon That's right.

Just do what you did last year. Stay flat and, and, and we'll be happy. I, I, I don't think that's the answer. Right? Growth is still the paradigm that needs to be executed. So, um, how do you think about it? How, how do you think you can get growth these days? Um, and maybe not doing the layer cake ex, um, you know, exercise?

Koen: Yeah, I mean, uh, ideally do both, right? Like, uh, yeah. I mean, if you really wanna grow, and, and again, it all depends on the maturity states of the company we are in. It all, uh, um, uh, depends on how many people eventually working, how many capital you can deploy. Like there are so many, um, elements which actually decide like what you can do.

But I think it's quite common that especially, um, uh, the majority of companies are sub 20 or sub 10, or maybe even sub 5 million a r. They don't have the money, they don't have the people. Um, and, and therefore I think you need to dare to make choices. And I think the number one thing, whether you are a [00:14:00] GTM operator, a leader or a founder.

It is so easy to think about net new initiatives, new, do more, do more, do more. But again, to the point of do we have the monies to invest and do we have the people to invest without jeopardizing something which works? I mean, that's of course on, on itself a very, uh, uh, interesting, a very important, uh, occasion and conversation you need to have.

And, and so, um, hey, look at. What may be on your side, what is, what is currently already there, what potentially can work better. And I think that's, that's, that's, um, how typically a lot of founders and GTM operators logically don't think they think in, Hey, you need to do more. People directly think I need to add this plus one new logo more.

But if you have revenue.

Understanding Revenue Sources
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Koen: I think it's important [00:15:00] always to first understand where does the revenue come from, and then, and then you always get to, to the Paretta rule, like the 80 20, like, uh, 80% of your revenue come from 20% of your customers. Who is that 20%? Do we truly understand that 20%? Same for all your market campaigns.

We actually know that majority of pipeline, 80% of your pipeline comes for 20% of your, of your, um, of your, uh, marketing programs, which are those pro these programs that actually convert. What are the programs that don't convert? Maybe we can put that one down a slightly when it comes to investments and people.

And why not put like a little more oil on the fire of that program or the type of customer which we know converts better. And I think that on itself is not like a very, uh, new way of thinking, but in a way of we need to grow. The first lever is always on the new business side and new logo side, I think.

And I'm also curious to your view there. [00:16:00] That's not the only way where we should look at for net new growth

Toni: before we get back to the conversation, a quick break. Most teams I talk to that are trying to scale strategy is not the problem. It's almost always execution. They've got dashboards telling them what happened, but nothing that actually drives what to do next.

That's why I've been watching what ZoomInfo is doing lately. They've completely rebuilt themselves. It's not just a contact data anymore. It's a full go-to market intelligence platform that sees buyer signals and launches the motion automatically. Strategy turns into action and growth becomes predictable.

Check it out at Zoom info.com/revenue-formula. So while you were talking about it like this, right, I was also reflecting on, um, hey, there is a parallel to building products here too, right? And neither of us nor you, nor I are product leaders or [00:17:00] product builders necessarily. Kind of, yes, we have some experience in this, but I think that's not what people are listening.

Um, but I do think there's a little bit of this, um, the truth from building products. It's like while adding more features doesn't make your product better. Um, there's, you know, adding another slice on top that maybe unlocks one weirdo use case or weirdo audience might not actually make you a better business, better company.

And you know what? The same thing is probably true for, for your go-to market engine, right? Kind of. There are some of those physics, some of those rules that translate over. Um, and instead of trying to build yet another, you know, module and feature into your product, you know. Basically kind of transferring this over to your go-to market engine, instead of doing that just nail really well what you're already good at.

Right. And I think, you know, while, while this might make theoretical sense for a bunch of people, like, oh yeah, yeah, cool, let's do that. You know, let me go back to my rev ops and CRO and be like, Hey, we should just keep, you know, doing more what, what's already [00:18:00] working. Like, like let's define a little bit what that actually means.

What, what, how, how can people find out what's working, what's not working? Kind of what, what is a good rule of thumb kind of, you know, with, without people buying all kinds of analytics tools and hiring 5G TM engineers or whatever, like how can people figure out and sense out where there is an opportunity to double down or triple down in the, in the existing go-to market, um, that they're currently running.

Koen: Now, I know that you and me, I could really think in the same way because, uh, you used to have a beautiful tool for, uh, making that breakdown. And again, I think when founders revenue leaders start to think, Hey, next year we need to grow 10, 20, 30, 45, 50, or 100%, we need to grow two x, they come up with.

Anecdotal ideas, how we can grow the business. And again, then it comes to like, oh, let's add a new program, man. [00:19:00] Everything needs to be back with data. And then I hear, uh, young founders or revenue who say, yeah, but we are, it's the 2 million a RR uh, we don't have this data. If you have no data, it's gonna be really damn difficult to make the right decisions.

And of course you can always make some assumptions, but eventually everything is back backward data.

Data-Driven Decision Making
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Koen: If you have like 1 million of a RR that built 1 million a RR comes from. A type of ICP comes from a type of channel, comes from a type of geography, uh, purchase, a type of your product, uh, offering. So we need to understand all those elements and that just, just basic go to market understanding.

And of course that comes down towards, hey, what is my entire customer journey? I mean, to that extent, it's always very easy to, uh, to go to the, um, add to the, um, to the story from Yuko, from winning my design when it comes to the revenue factory and the production lines. Hey, what do we actually have? And you can break it down in all different kind of ways.

You can break it down in your products, your [00:20:00] offering, if you have an offer for, for a person in HR and a payroll product, or as a person. I just make the example for myself because of course, I'm also now in planning. Hey, I have the UKI, I have the Benelux and I've paid, that's more on the geo, uh, uh, geographically, uh, layer.

Or, hey, I have an SMB play and a mid market play, and these are all product lights. And, and, and one thing, what what I, myself, regardless of the, the stage of the company is always doing and always will be doing, is show me actually at least ideally the last seven or eight quarters, because then I have two years of data.

And I'm just trying to understand, and you can do this in Excel. It's not like, again, in any company, I, I, I, I come, I mean, I think I've showed you, uh, once my, uh, my lovely excels how I do that myself. I want to understand actually where in the funnel, what works. And, and you can, you can go as deep as possible, but eventually from an MQL or an accept opportunity towards close one, towards renewal, just the entire customer journey.[00:21:00]

Um, understand what works and what doesn't work. And, and again, getting back towards the example which we did late, uh, earlier, is like, what works? Hey, how can we potentially generate some additional investments, which we can put there? 'cause where something works, there's definitely stuff which doesn't work and that you can stop and you, you actually shift that type of budget towards, uh, um, um, the, the elements or your product line, your factory line, what works.

And it sounds maybe a little bit like abstract, but again, it comes down to do you actually understand where your new business revenue comes from? I find it even more important if you are a few years around and most of the companies, they are a few years around, how does customer, the customers that renew and grow, how are we truly understanding what is that type of customer on an eh, on really not only, oh, that is that type of Indus industry because that on itself is not an ideal [00:22:00] customer profile on ICP, but we truly need to understand what is the, the type of customer who actually.

It keeps renewing and keeps growing with us because that's an idle customer. And if we reverse engineer that customer, I mean, I think that we already have like a big answer on where we potentially of not adding this extra layer on top, but hey, this actually works. And which channels actually convert this type of customer who renews, um, uh, already for several years.

Maybe we can do a slightly more there. And I think that's a really simple exercise, but nobody truly takes the time to make a visible in simply an Excel sheet.

Toni: I think there's a, there's a data exercise. I think there's a, um, uh, there's a visibility exercise on all of that stuff. I also do think that for many of those decisions, um, that just isn't, you know, either enough or any data at all.

Um, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think that's true for, [00:23:00] um. Let's just say even, even you're like an established business, 10, 20, 30 million maybe you are operating in the enterprise space. Mm-hmm. There's just, there's just not that super much data there. Right. If you have a long delay between what you do and what you get.

Yeah. Yeah. And people struggle little bit more with that, right? Mm-hmm. And I think then the other piece is also, um, I think, and this is more from my experience as, as, as having been a founder for three to four years is, um. Um, it does all start with the ICP, like, like at the end of the day it starts with the ideal customer profile and, you know, and I think, you know, one, one good way that I would recommend people to, to try and figure this out is obviously look at your current customer base and try and figure out, based on a couple of criteria, who is, um, like your best customer.

Um. Then figure out how to get more of those. It is, it's, it's super, it's really stupid. Very. But, but basically that's what it is. Right? Um, and then think about, well, and this is where [00:24:00] some of the, the, the problems kind of potentially, theoretically come in. Like if you figure out that your one specific, you know, best kind of customer, um, is best reached through outbound, for example.

But currently outbound stats are shit. Um, that could still give you an indication that you maybe should be tripling down or outbound, like just as an example, probably, probably the outbounding to your ICP. Probably your number's gonna be great already, but you know, it could be sometimes misleading only to rely on the data.

Right. So having a little bit of a, of a, of a wider net in terms of thinking about it with and without data, I think super important. Right? And then the other thing is.

The Parking Lot Exercise
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Toni: Um, and I think that's super healthy for people to just, to just, you know, you know, think about is, um, think about it as a, as the parking lot exercise.

So what's the parking lot? Exercise? The parking lot exercise is. You have, uh, you know, everyone is in your company. Um, and then from the, you know, one day to the [00:25:00] next, you fire everyone. Everyone is standing outside in the parking lot. Um, and then you figure out and try and decide. Whom you wanna hire back.

Right? Um, it is, and doing this, not in a sense of adding more, but you know, if you do this exercise and to a degree, you have to do it in a forced ranked fashion. Right. Because you can't say, I'm gonna hire those five people, you know, back at the same time, or those five tactics back at the same, you will be like, oh no, this is probably like a must have tactic.

Right? And I think if you force yourself to do this kind of exercise. Um, you will probably realize and figure out with and without data, there will be some gut in there, I'm sure, uh, to figure out kind of what are the core pieces and then honestly try and figure out how you can triple down on those, on those core pieces.

And how would you do that? Well, it might be, um, that you do that with, um, with funds. Of the people that are still standing out there in the parking lot that they don't need anymore. Right. And that could be closing down markets, it could be, you know, [00:26:00] shutting off different ICPs. It could be, Hey, you know what, Hey, we have really this use case where we're competing in a market where, um, where there's clearly a winner and we are just, we are just competing there to bother them.

Um, instead we could just stop that and focus on what we are really good at.

Koen: I think, um, and I think your, uh, your example there is, right? Like, and if I put it in perspective, um, in, in one of my previous companies, um, I think. We grew quite quickly in Europe because there we saw like, hey, we were very, I mean this was this Belgium company.

We were selling like a CRM platform, um, specifically for agencies. So, uh, uh, um, 'cause those companies and agencies, um, and we were very successful in Belgium. We were moderately successful in the Netherlands and then we really started to scale quite quickly. Germany, France, Italy, Spain, because we like, Hey, we can solve this specifically in those small countries in Europe.

Let's then expand towards those other countries. Um, but yeah, again, to the point of like. Additional investments, additional, uh, [00:27:00] people go into like those markets. We quite quickly learned that it's not that easy to scale in all those, um, in all those European, uh, countries simultaneously with the right focus. And eventually also, yeah, I mean, uh, from a unit economics perspective, making it all profitable or at least like significant when it comes to top line growth. And if you don't think like, Hey, but wait, what if. These kind of investments you can allocate towards your core markets and put to that extent, more oil on the fire.

Wouldn't debts make us eventually, not only in the short term, but also in the long term? Um, a higher, um, uh, growth in revenue overall.

Vanity in Expansion
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Koen: And, and, and, and I think the logical tendency of founders of revenue leaders is we want to be proud. We want to mention that we are in so many comp, uh, so many countries with so many people.

And I think that's a bit like of the, the, the old 2022 of 22. 2020 playbook [00:28:00] or maybe 2022, but like not the 2026 playbook. You don't have to do that. And I think one anecdote I was, um, with actually their main investor, I think one half year ago, I went here in Amda. I'm not far away from where I'm now currently sitting.

I went for lunch with one of the partners of the investment fund. And he also said like, Hey, actually when we look back on the journey, our tendency was always. We want to grow and it was just a fe, right, a venture capital. Then we need to deploy capital so they can quickly expand in Europe. But eventually they learned because they sold the company, is by focusing and doing less, but better.

We actually see that our multiple return for the company, for the founder, for the investors was way better and way more predictable. And also way more fun, I think eventually just to execute. Yeah. Then like having this spread everywhere, very thin and again, and that that's, that's next towards ICP. I think you [00:29:00] need to dare, as a founder, as a revenue leader, just to say no to certain areas.

That doesn't say you need to pull back or you need to pull out, but you need to make, you need to dare to make decisions on where are we going to focus and where are we not going to focus. And that's also for myself, three years ago when I came here in Persona and the Benelux, Hey, you can do the ledge in Belgium.

Even though they're small boats, small countries, we said we are going to kneel the, the Dutch market first, and we can do s and b mid-market. We are going to do s and b first. And if that's, if that's really proven, let's then move on. Because then I think we can keep it stable and we can add this extra layer on the cake, but I think that's like the way we really need to think, especially 2026.

Toni: So I totally agree with that. Um, I think there's some vanity in trying to add more stuff faster. And there's also some vanity in like saying I'm an, you know, we, we are selling to the enterprise. We have Coca-Cola with gm, with, you know, Ford, whatever. I'm not sure if Ford is on the list anymore, but, uh, um, you know, there, there's some vanity in this, right?

Besides doing the [00:30:00] very abstract old resource allocation game of less year more there. Um, you recently had a, uh, a presentation somewhere in Amsterdam where basically we're talking about five things, like five, um, specific tactics I wanna call it. Right? That's, that's a little bit detached from the typical, you know, money allocation, you know, business, but more like, Hey, let's, you know, what are we actually doing on the, on the fing ground here?

Um, let's jump into those actually. What, what is the first one you, you executed?

Understanding Y our ICP
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Koen: Now again, I come back to, I think what, what we said, like, uh, you need to really understand your ICP and an ICP needs to really well defined because eventually that comes with cross collaborative working is if you understand your ICP, we also as a founder of a revenue leader, cross-functional way to align this is the customer and, and.

Product onwards because we are still like, we are a product company from a product onwards towards how we are building brands, how we are bring building, top of funnel, how we are building eventually a quality pipeline, how we are converting [00:31:00] pipeline, how we are implementing, how we are, um, adopting and eventually renewing this customer.

We really need to understand how we can solve for that specific ICP and just by really focusing and aligning, I think that there you will see that you will have a massive impact and again. That exercise on itself. A lot of companies say that they do ICP, but yes, they did it once, one and a half year ago, or they, they haven't done it really more than Yeah.

But, uh, I'm selling towards companies between 10 and 10,000 people in entire of Europe. Like, no, it really need to be specifically defined. I think that's like really number one key to define. Um, yeah, that's, that's for me, number one. And kind of jumping on this actually,

Toni: um, like a very practical.

Building a Target List
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Toni: Tip and you know, advice for people here is if you're selling in B2B, like the main difference between B2B and B2C is in B2B, you can literally have a list of all the people that you wanna sell to.

Like you can create a list and B2C, forget about that, that's not gonna work. But in B2B, that works, right? So, and [00:32:00] if you can create that list, build that fricking list, and then actually make sure that both your sales team and your market team team is, is operating on the same list. You know, that is very easy on terms like the SDRs reaching out to those people, and ads are being targeted at those people and lookalikes and however you can define them.

But whenever, uh, marketing is putting out, for example, content or doing some event, it's like, you know, with that piece of content, whom on the list. Do we believe we can activate based on that? Right. And, and you know what, that, you know, will be hard to prove and will hard to follow up and measure and all of that stuff.

But that needs to be the still the, the starting thought, the starting thought of the marketing team to achieve that. Right. And frankly. Beyond go to market, the same for product. Like those are the people we are building this for, not for these other people that we are kind of maybe seeing sometimes on the pro it's those folks.

Right? Um, so, and that's, I feel where this whole ICP tightening becomes, becomes more tangible for people, [00:33:00] right?

Koen: Yeah. No, and 100%. And again, and, and to the point, because eventually I also really liked to make, make things very technical because you can need, like you said, you can focus on your ICP, you can focus on like which markets are you going at or not, and really focus, but eventually.

If you really want to get towards your growth for next year, all comes down towards pure execution. I think that's also what you were referring to. Like and, and, and also there, when it comes to execution, I mean typically I see that we as founders and revenues make it way too complex when it comes to how do we improve win rates or pipeline or what have you, and it eventually, it always comes down towards pure fundamentals of trading.

And, and again, like, uh, just to get a bit practical on, on, on those elements, which I also presented like, uh, two weeks ago, I think, uh, one of those key things is why we need to remember, even though you have ICP defined and you start targeting that person and that person starts to talk to yourself, we also need to [00:34:00] imagine that that person most.

Nine out 10 times have never bought software before, have never bought your specific, uh, solution before, or have never, um, bought any kind of purchase within that company. Because typically also the, the tenuring companies are radically short. So, and, and if they don't have any of the knowledge, it's also us as sellers.

Enabling Buyers
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Koen: We really need to enable those buyers. And, and like one of those tactics where I'm a really big fan of. And that I call this, oh, it is called asig selling, right? Like it's really how can we make sure to enable the, the buyers, which we are buying to, that eventually they can. If they really believe that you are the right solution, that they can sell this internally themselves.

Because we always think when it comes to selling, that we are selling no, we are enabling. And eventually it is the, the, the, the person, eventually a fan or a champion who actually needs to do the selling. Most likely [00:35:00] when you are not in a room internally in that company, but they don't have this experience.

And again, if it really comes towards, um, execution, we think, oh, I have a call and I have, uh, maybe I send an email or I have otherwise the demo. Or other life calls where I can make all the, uh, all, all the difference. But if we know that 85 to 90% of the entire buying decision has happened without a life call or life a meeting where you show your beautiful product.

So there are different ways where we really need to think about how we are. Influencing the buyer, how we are enabling the buyer. And that to me is like, um, uh, I'm a really big fan of async communication and async tactics. And just to explain for anyone thing, like, Hey, it sounds very fancy, but the moment you and me are not in like a live call, um, or, uh, or speaking on the phone.

But sending an email, having called it over LinkedIn, over email, or maybe sending a video, like all those in-between [00:36:00] moments, these are actually very crucial in order. To have better execution. And I think when I speak to a lot of founders and leaders and also sellers, they're actually very poor in those execution moments.

And there typically you really, and especially nowadays with digital sales rooms, I mean, I, I, I'm quite vocal on these kind of things. And for me, it's not the vendor, it's not the tooling. It is eventually, how do we make sure that we actually educate buyers in their buying cycle? Yes, you can do it on the website, but at the moment they click on a demo.

They actually are involved with yourself within a solution engineer. It depends on the, uh, on the complexity of your product, but so many people. All those people are sending all kind of pieces of information towards the buyer who gets overwhelmed because they also have four or five competitors. And so I think that's like one key tactic where people really can focus on, if you ask me for next year to do better execution, and I'm, I'm, I'm actually amazed that there are not that many who are so much focused on better execution [00:37:00] in all the contact moments, which you can have at a buyer.

Toni: So I love that. Right. And, and again, right, this is not specific. Tool that needs to be bought and implemented. I think it's really just, you know, thinking hard about what, what happens in the 98% of the times that I'm not sitting with the buyer. Um, and, and really the buy, you know, the selling and the sales cycle actually happens, right?

Kind of obsessing over that. So when, when, when we were selling social media management software, we were selling that to the, the lowest person in the organization. 'cause social media management, like, you know, sometimes intern right outta school, they could never buy any of that stuff. So what did we do?

We kind of gave them a. You know, sell this to your boss package. Right? Because they always had to sell it to their boss. Right? And they don't know how

Koen: to sell, so you need to enable them.

Toni: And, and they also don't know how to buy, by the way, but like, that is, that is kind of the main thing, right? You kind of really need to actually help them and obsess over that and well, what's gonna happen?

Sure. Some. Some uplift here and there, [00:38:00] but you know what? You're probably gonna close a couple of more deals, you know, because of that, which basically, you know, goes right into this. Don't, don't do more, just do better. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you say, what would you say is another example? I'm not sure if you're gonna get through the whole list here today.

No. That's another example. And it's fine

Koen: because there are so many things, but they are closer towards us than we sometimes thinking. And again, on the angle of influencing the senior buyers. You and me as sellers, we think that we can really influence a senior buyer to buy our product, but let's be honest.

They, they, they smell out, they, uh, I think Josh Brown always called this, this commission breath. They, they are your seller. You just wanna sell your products. Like, and let's be honest, yeah, that's the case because people can count on selling as much as possible. So that's the behavior which is right, quite logical.

But if you want to do so, it's still fine.

Leveraging Ecosystems
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Koen: But you need to understand that there is an entire, and I call this, especially if you go, if you go to new markets, but also in your home markets, the [00:39:00] ecosystem surrounding you. Customers, partners, and everyone who's already very close towards the buyer. And it can be like a former, uh, user of your product who's now employed at the company.

It can be a, uh, consultancy, implementation partner, strategic partner, or a friend who works at a partner firm, but the, you know, they are already a vendor towards your ideal customer. They can give you insights, Intel, they can give you introductions, what have you. And so this entire ecosystem of partners, and for me, what I found very important because eventually it's not only the people who are close towards the buyer, eventually, I think it's also very important that you build a strong brand.

If you, if you know your ICP and your ICP is not the entire of the Netherlands for me. No, it's really specifically, um, within, for instance, the Netherlands. If I mean. In an industry, a really dedicated ICP and at ICP, they gather online, offline, at certain platforms, at certain [00:40:00] occasions, and you need to understand, okay, there also, again, with your partners, building that trust layer, that credibility layer if you are, and again, I always say like skill the unscalable, but if you do that very well, you learn a lot because you have a lot of conversation with the market.

So you get a lot of insight, which you can put in you your marketing content. But on the other end, if. I work with you and I have an I customer profile, and, and it's, it's, and, and, and you can help me voice a very positive message about Kon and persona. Who do you think they will trust? Especially when they hear that from more people in their industry?

So that ecosystem influence, I think that on itself is a very important play just to, um, uh, eventually convert better in your markets, both from a new business. And existing business perspective.

Toni: From my perspective, and there are a couple of different kind of views here and perspectives and, and, and reasons why people believe this works.

Um, but from my perspective right now, one of the main drivers here is actually trust, which you kind of mentioned [00:41:00] there previously. And this is not only about. Um, you know, not the person with a commission pressure is saying something positive, but someone who is actually using it, who doesn't have anything to win by saying this is good.

Like, that is more trust, you know, by default. But the other main crucial thing here is, and this is maybe a little bit different for larger, more established players like person, no. Um. There, there's just a, an avalanche of tools right now, and I can, I can tell you bias are confused. They're absolutely confused, right?

Kind of. We talked about AI and, and go to market and AI everywhere and like, is it, is it AI native, is it SaaS? And whatever bias are so fundamentally confused. And what will happen in most cases is they will default back to you know whom they trust. Like, I think, I think that's what's gonna happen.

They're not gonna sit there and try and do research. You know, I, I tried to do research actually kind of, you know, used, you know, open AI and kind of did that [00:42:00] stuff and I had it, you know, find me things. And you know what, then, you know, I scrolled around on LinkedIn and found a much better solution. Um, and kind of that I, me, yes.

You know, artificial super intelligence is almost there. It does all the research, figures everything out, gives me all the information, but then it also doesn't, um, and then I'm like thinking, you know what? I can't even trust this thing now. You know, can't even, you know, maybe I should have never even thought about trusting it, but the, this, you know, trying to navigate that, it's impossible apparently for ai.

It's definitely impossible for you. So what will, what will people do in this whole ecosystem now? Uh, to your point, I think that will default back to, you know. Taking, you know, being okay with not necessarily buying the absolute best perfect solution, top shelf, whatever, but, you know, going with a one where they trust the people behind it.

Um, and, and, um, and I think the only way for this to come out, or you can talk about the founder led LinkedIn stuff, I think there's, there's truth to that, but the other real thing. Is kind of [00:43:00] to, to participate actually not build, but, but participate in the ecosystem where people can, you know, have a chance to, to get to know you, get to trust you.

Koen: No, and it's just 1% the case. Uh, and, and, and, and, and I think, uh, people really misunderstand that like the digital marketing place there are fantastic. But if you really want to understand your specific buyers, if you want to gain trust, if you really want to understand how you can help them, and again, not only from a new business perspective, also still from an existing business perspective, your current customers are a true source of information where you can win your next customer.

And that's also really a misunderstood play from a lot of founders and revenue leaders.

Toni: So let's jump, so we have like three more that we wanted to tick off. Yeah. And we're probably not gonna get to this, so, um. Let's, let's do the one that I think is most enticing, and you tell me the story about this.

What is behind the process over people? PC o, Koen. Tell us, tell us more about that.

Process Over People
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Koen: Our process over people is eventually a lot of companies and, [00:44:00] and a founder, if you are one, two mill or five of five mill, is you as a founder, most likely are still, already, uh, in, of, uh, part of the new sales place. Like you, you actually, it's up to you that you still closes those big deals, but if I need to depend.

As a founder or myself, that's very risky. If I need to depend and I'm like five or sub 10 million on one or two really good superstars, which I have in my, in my organization, it's very risky if that person is not long on air for whatever reason, and let's be honest, the tenure is not that long in overall SaaS businesses or AI native businesses all the same, I think is, so you need to start documenting.

You need to understand that a process. A process is like, hey, getting back towards what is all this type of, uh, what is this? ICP, which we've seen, we've closed, uh, over and over again, reverse engineer how we found that customer, how we converted that customer, how we [00:45:00] implemented and adopted that customer.

This part of the process is over the entire customer journey. Nowadays, they are easier than ever to document. Put into a process because eventually I would, I would really argue for, for anyone, any kind of customer conversation you have of, um, from tomorrow, record those conversations. Of course, you need to have intent of content from, uh, of consent, from the, from, uh, the customer, but all this information, how you've helped them.

You can put into your LLM, you can, you can ask if it can document that part of the process. And if you have a new hire or whatever, you can actually explain how good, uh, what good looks like towards Kevin Dorsey's, uh, focus. And I think these elements. Of documenting processes, and I know nobody likes it.

No revenue leader, no founder. But nowadays with ai, it's so important to have all this information. You don't need to build all those playbooks, but if you record everything and you have all this [00:46:00] data, which you put into your LLM. Your entire company from marketing, from s sales, from customer success can benefit eventually from, from, from these kind of elements.

And that's like one part of, of, of process over people. Another thing for me, process over people is, uh, getting maybe back slightly towards like asing selling and that's for me, cross functional collaboration. So one of the key things when we want to go up market in this company, but also my previous company, is really making sure the entire, um, customer facing team marketing.

SDR ae, solution engineer, partner manager, implementation manager, account manager, customer success, maybe even up to support. We need to understand this. ICP, that's one thing, but also collectively, we are working together towards acquiring the right type of customer in a, let's, let's call it, uh, a BM. We call it internally, a BS, because eventually we wanna sell.

It's not only marketing, it's really a collective, but like how. What is this process of really focusing on this, right? A and b [00:47:00] accounts, which we know convert the best. And I want eventually in my, in my mid-funnel deal cycle or end funnel deal cycle, before the customer initially signs that my customer success can jump on a call and, or sends an email and explain, Hey, via customer, I know you are considering, uh, um, this and this, uh, uh, solution.

I just want to make sure the moment you sign up. This is the journey you will go through. This is actually how I've helped similar companies like yourself being very successful in the adoption and finding initial impact. And, and if the CSM helps cross-functional on the pre-sale side or when it comes to handover that they, uh, as E or the AE really helps landing that customer towards the implementation that's cross-functional.

Process on itself. That is really how you execute better. And again, this, these are the boring tactics, but I can tell you the last, the last three years in, in, in the Benelux, how we grew quite significant in the Benelux is just [00:48:00] because of those reasons. Asing selling, cross-functional collaboration. Really, uh, in, in one process, both on the new business side, as in the existing business side, and then to the point the ecosystem with events, community and partners.

They're a very boring place. They're not per se, super scalable, but they really will help. They have helped us the last couple of years and they will also be my focus place for next year if you execute them well, if you document them well, they are becoming scalable, but definitely they become impactful in your, in your organization to grow your revenue.

Toni: Yeah, absolutely. Um. You know what?

Final Thoughts and Wrap-Up
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Toni: Let's wrap it here. Cool. I think this was great episode. We kind of talked about what everyone immediately does when they're thinking about next year and when they need to add more stuff, they immediately jump to, let's just, you know, add more, more, more, more. Let's build the layer cake and so forth.

I think that, you know, yes there's some capital efficiency reasons. There are a couple of, you know, complexity reasons, all kinds of reasons why that maybe is a bad idea. So [00:49:00] instead just try and figure out what actually works and try and triple quadruple that instead. Right. And how does that happen? Sure, it might happen with additional resource allocation.

Nice. Cool. Very much A CFO play. Do that. But also. Go down to the tactics and the operational layer here. Um, figure out, um, how you can help in the sales process. Figure out how in, in this case, you guys have identified, there's something on the asing side that we need to take care of, you know, for, for, for people listening, this might be slightly different.

There might be something else as are working out and kind of, you know, triple down on that potentially. Right? I love the ecosystem play. I think the ecosystem play also works extremely well with UICP, right? HR people, folks. I don't wanna say that that's unique to them, but it fits totally. Right. No, but that's, this is how

Koen: you look at it.

What fits your specific IP Where are they gathering, what are they, what are they looking for?

Toni: And, and the thing is, right, kind of the, you know, one of the things that works is at least selling to, you know, C-level or enterprise folks, like intimate small events, kind of, you know, throw a dinner, have like a 10, [00:50:00] 15 people thing, right?

Kind of work on those things. Um, and then the last piece process of a people. And, and there, you know, if I have one advice just to share right now, it's really, um, sometimes people think, oh sure, we should totally do that. And then think like, well, where should we start? And it's like, hmm, there's nothing really sticks out.

Let's just keep going. Well, the, the places where you will see, you know, it happen is you onboard someone new and then you basically, that new person will kind of reveal, uh, where your process sucks. Uh, yeah, 1%. Uh, you know, it's, that, that's what it is. It's a little bit, again, going back to the, to the, um, product, um, comparison.

If you onboard a new user, they will basically show you where the process breaks, right? And kind of if, if you have a new fresh ice on your process. That is a good moment to try and suss out where is there friction and where, where do we need to use the send paper and kind of, you know, make this make this a bit smoother.

Right. Kind of think about it like this. Koen, thank you so much for today. Um, my pleasure. [00:51:00] You becoming a regular on the show, you're kind of becoming a revenue. Formula contributor. I wanna call you maybe, maybe you need to put this on LinkedIn now. I don't know. Sharing is scary. I think that that's also

Koen: one thing, just by sharing what works for other revenue leaders.

I think that's also a key play community against just to learn. You don't have to reinvent. You can really learn from others and. And you need to know what you can and what you can't apply. Like my tactics can maybe work in some industries and others not like, but you need to understand what can work for yourself.

And I think that that will really help you for next year on driving that additional one ten five, 10 million of a RR, which you need to find as a founder or revenue leader. So happy to help. That's it.

Toni: Koen. Thank you so much. Thank you everyone else for listening and see you next week. Cheers.