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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
Welcome to the grazing
grass podcast, episode 130.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
I recommend holistic management
and ranching for profit, but
I did them in the wrong order.
You're listening to the grazing grass,
podcast, sharing information and stories
of grass-based livestock production
utilizing regenerative practices.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage.
Cal: You're growing more than grass.
You're growing a healthier
ecosystem to help your cattle
thrive in their environment.
You're growing your livelihood by
increasing your carrying capacity
and reducing your operating costs.
You're growing stronger communities
and a legacy to last generations.
The grazing management
decisions you make today.
impact everything from the soil beneath
your feet to the community all around you.
That's why the Noble Research
Institute created their Essentials
of Regenerative Grazing course to
teach ranchers like you easy to follow
techniques to quickly assess your forage
production and infrastructure capacity.
In order to begin
grazing more efficiently.
Together, they can help you grow
not only a healthier operation,
but a legacy that lasts.
Learn more on their website at noble.
org slash grazing.
It's n o b l e dot org
forward slash grazing.
On today's show we have
Stewart styling her.
He lives in Canada.
And we talk about his journey from
a Paul ranch to a bison ranch.
And how the changeover of
his father's ranch to bison.
Drew him in.
And he ended up going back home.
We find out what they're doing
on the ranch, how they're
incorporating Regente practices.
And what's happening there.
It's a really good episode.
It is our first episode.
That includes someone who's raising bison.
So really excited about that.
Thank you, Stewart.
Wonderful episode.
I think you'll enjoy it.
Before we get to Stewart,
10 seconds about my farm.
I think I told you a month or two ago,
we decided not to bell any hay this year.
And we were just purchasing hay.
We have our barns full.
And we got a reasonable price and delivery
was included, which is always great with
which meant I didn't have to go haul hay.
So wonderful.
Uh, we're in great shape.
It's gotten kind of warm.
It's gotten kind of dry here.
But it should be getting better soon.
We did get a half inch
of rain over the weekend.
So.
I'm always excited for
a little bit of rain.
I am planning on broadcasting, some cool
seasons and, and, and having the cows.
I try and stomp it into the ground.
So we're going to try that.
I haven't really done that before, so I'm
going to try that and see how that goes.
Let's do 10 seconds about
the podcast for the podcast.
Let's read a review.
We haven't read a review in a few weeks.
This review comes from Dr.
Callahan.
It says one of the best.
Great show that continues
to get better and better.
Truly appreciate cow's commitment
to expanding the art and
science of grazing ruminants.
Not a wasted episode.
Listen to them all.
Thank you, Dr.
Callahan.
We appreciate that.
Um, His words are much too kind.
Um, We were trying to share stories
and I hope you find value in them.
We have a wonderful story today with
Stewart and let's talk to Stewart.
And let's talk to him.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: Steward
we're excited you're here today.
Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
All right, well, thank you
very much for having me.
It's a, I'm looking forward to it.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: Steward get
started, can you tell us a little bit
about yourself and your operation?
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
Okay, well, I'm Stu Staudinger.
I born and raised in central Alberta on a
purebred, purebred Simmental cattle ranch.
And I graduated high school
in 91, and I'd always wanted
to be a pilot and an engineer.
So I, my mother's English.
I ended up going to the UK.
I studied engineering at university.
As an aeronautical engineer, and I ended
up joining the Royal Air Force while I
was there, so I was sponsored through
my university degree by the British
military, and I joined the Royal Air
Force as a pilot, so I commissioned
in I started officer training in 96,
and got commissioned, earned my wings,
and ended up in in tactical aviation
in battlefield helicopters, so I flew
helicopters through my military career.
So I did that through until 2013
when I moved back to Canada.
I retired as a flight commander
and came back to the, to Canada.
I joined the Canadian Forces
Air Reserve as a reserve pilot
flying part time for three years.
Did that 2014 and then in 2017 I
left that completely and came back
to the ranch full time and and I'll
tell you in another 10 or 12 years
whether that was a good idea or not.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: Yeah.
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
Yeah.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: So when you were
growing up, it was a Simmental ranch.
When you came back, was
the ranch still Simmentals
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751: no.
In in 95, dad, dad had always
been interested in bison.
And and in 95 he got his first group of
bison heifers and fenced off a couple
of pastures to be able to handle bison.
And then bought a few more in
97 six and seven, got a bull.
And then in 98, he'd had a dispersal
sale for his purebred Simmental herd.
And . He was in infl in Fleckvieh
and then, and he was actually very
well recognized in the Simmental,
in the Fleckvieh industry.
We, we still get the odd phone call people
asking him about, one bull or other.
'cause there's still semen
floating around out there.
But anyway he he's had a dispersal
sale in 98 for his cattle and
went a hundred percent bison.
I think the biggest thing is he
liked the bison and he was getting
burnt out from the purebred industry.
All the constant showing shows and
sales and all that kind of stuff.
It's, for a one man band as he was,
it was just it was whatever, 25
years of non stop rat race and and
he just needed to have a change.
So he went into plains bison and
about that time I'd got commissioned
and got my wings and, My first my
first tour as a pilot was actually
on a squadron where I worked 21 days
on, 7 days off in Northern Ireland.
And it was a great place
to be and great experience.
But anyway, with my 7 days off,
I was a single, we call it SUPS,
Single Officers Useless Purchases.
My, my SUPS consisted of airline
tickets to fly across the Atlantic.
So I ended up coming home
15 times in only 3 years.
And I try and time it with things
like weaning and, anything that
we needed to do on the animals.
So I was home for weaning for three years
straight and helping out where I could.
And and I really, as soon as I got
exposed to the bison, even in like 99,
when I was home in the summer, I just
thought, man, I like these animals.
And so that's the, that was the
hook, the thing that kind of
brought me back to the ranch.
Yep.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: So, for me, I
love seeing bison out grazing somewhere.
I always have to stop
and gawk for a while.
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751: Yep.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: But when
I read about bison, they're just a
little bit different than cattle.
What are some things you've
noticed that's different between
cattle and their management?
Oh,
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
are a wild animal, so they, Their
herd response, their natural instinct
response is that natural herd defensive
response that you'd get, in a wild herd.
And they become habituated to us, so,
you drive out there with a tractor
or a pickup that they're used to,
they don't, they just ignore you.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: yeah.
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751: But
but it's funny, I take people out that
want to go and look at the animals and I
say you want to see their herd instinct,
watch this, and I'll stop the truck and
then I'll just step out of the truck and
step two, two steps, two paces away from
the truck and the whole herd just, the
whole herd just lights up and they all
cluster up and back off and now, and you
can just see they're on alert and And
people are like, wow, that's amazing.
They're like, it's almost like they
all react simultaneously there.
it's really interesting.
And you'll get the odd one that's
a little bit more laid back.
They'll just stand there and look at you.
But most of them, they all just,
they go into that natural thing.
It's like, okay, something's changed.
There's a potential threat here.
So they all perk up, they all move
together, they mob up, and then they look
at you and decide whether you're actually
going to cause them trouble or not.
It's pretty cool.
Yeah.
So yeah, so.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: interesting.
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
that, but they're also
much faster than cattle.
And like a big bison bull, he'll
jump a five foot fence without it,
without even touching the wire.
he wants to go somewhere.
So, as long as they've got decent
feed and they're happy where
they are, they don't go anywhere.
But they can outrun a
thoroughbred racehorse.
They're incredibly fast.
Like a bison bull's windpipe
is five inches across.
And that deep chest is full of
lungs, and they stomp like a mule
deer, so they bounce on all four.
And I've had a bison bull, a 2000 pound
bison bull plant his front hooves as
he went past me, and he spun around
180 degrees in the air, hit the ground
in front of me, and then hit the gate
that was right in front of me with his
head, and clanged it like literally
inches from my face, and and then
he just stood up, and then he just
walked away, and my dad was laughing.
He goes, he's just letting
you know who's boss.
But but the speed that he turned just,
I couldn't believe how fast he turned.
And it was literally one, one movement.
He bounced, and he bounced, and
he spun in the air, and he landed
with all four hooves, whomp, and,
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
only like four, five feet away.
Oh, unbelievable.
Yeah, really cool.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: And I
know I've heard that they're that
fast and that agile, but they just
don't look like they're that agile.
Oh
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
they don't look at when they're out there,
and, but it's funny, and the wintertime
for us is the best time to see it.
We, if we get a snowstorm and
fresh snow drifts off the hilltops.
And so there's a snow drift
that's maybe two and a half,
three, four feet deep, whatever.
You usually start with the yearling
heifers, they'll start they'll,
or two year old heifers they'll
all decide to go for a run.
So you have like 15 of them will
go running through a snow drift
and snow goes flying everywhere.
The next thing you know, you'll have
a whole herd of 90 or 100 animals.
charging through the snowdrift, snow's
flying, and they're just kicking their
heels and dancing around and having fun.
Calves, cows, everything, and and
then, and the funny thing is then you
see like a nine year old bull, he's
standing there watching all this, and
then he decides to get involved and
he'll charge through the snowdrift and
kick his heels and everything else.
So, they, they don't deliberately
act as agile when they get older
except when there's, when the whole
herd starts to play, that even
the older bulls will get involved.
It's really neat to see.
It's really neat to see.
Most of the time, you don't notice it.
If you just drive by on the road, you
won't see it as a general rule but if
you're watching them for a while, you'll
see these moments where the whole herd
just decides to play and away they go.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752:
Oh yeah, I imagine so.
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
it's pretty cool.
cal_1_07-19-2024_090752: With the
change from going from Simmentals to
bison, what kind of changes had to
happen on the farm or on the ranch?
squadcaster-ag6c_1_07-19-2024_080751:
Well, initially, well, there's
two, two issues is one, obviously
you got to keep them here.
So a little, three and a half, four foot
cattle fence is not suitable for a bison.
And it's not to say that
they won't stay there.
But if they're pushed for some
reason if a low fence, they'll
just hop over it and off they go.
So dad did quite a bit
of fencing early on.
Around the perimeter for most of
the ranch, we've got page wire.
So we've got a five foot page wire fence.
And and that's, that's a, that's
a decent sort of outer barrier.
And this is, I have to say here,
we've learned a lot since then.
And the whole industry has learned a
lot about handling bison since then.
And then he started
building handling setup.
The biggest thing was our wooden handling
setup and alley to the chute and stuff
like that wasn't up to handling bison.
So dad had got a bunch of
welded steel panels with boxes.
with rolling doors and that kind of stuff.
Started off smaller, modified his he had
one of those half, half moon cattle tubs.
So,
he modified, had that modified
with extra piping built up higher
to give it a bit more height.
Cause I've seen a, I've seen a
two year old heifer with her front
legs over a seven foot fence.
So, they'll, if they're in a
panic they'll jump pretty high.
And so we've got seven and a half
foot panels in our handling system.
And so there was a bunch of that
kind of shift was how do you
adapt what you've got for cattle
to be able to handle a few bison.
And of course initially he bought a
bunch of heifer calves and then he
had a bunch of yearlings to handle.
And then he got a bull when they
were two year olds and so he was
stepping things up as he went.
He can't do it all at once.
But then when he totally got out of bison
he had to, Sorry, out of beef, he had
to he had to put a fair amount of time
and money investment into making sure he
had a setup that could handle the bison.
And we've been, well, we've
been modifying it ever since.
But he went and visited a bunch of
other ranchers that were handling
bison and got their advice on
what worked and what didn't.
And some guys built some.
really elaborate setups based
on what Parks Canada has, which
are probably complete overkill.
But you learn through
experience over time.
And so we've got to the stage
where we know what we need.
And when we built a new loadout system,
whatever it was three years ago or
four years ago, we had a much better
idea of what we were looking for.
And when we got the panels welded
up, we got them welded to the right
shape and size and everything else
to get exactly what we wanted.
And it works really well now.
So.
And so we now got, we get new guys
coming into the industry now that
come and they'll be on a tour,
they'll be going around looking at
people's handling setups because
they, they bought themselves 40 cows.
And it's July and they're looking
off into the fall, Christmas time
and thinking about weaning and they
have no idea how to catch their cows
because they're just out in the pasture.
They've maybe added an electric wire
on the top of the posts on their cattle
fences, which is probably good enough to
hold the bison, but now they've got to
figure out how to catch them and handle
them and wean the calves and whatever.
So you get guys, you get the odd,
young guy or young gal driving around
to a few ranches saying oh how do
you handle them and taking pictures
of the handling setup and finding
out what works and what doesn't so
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: One
thing you'd mentioned earlier
into Plains Bison.
Now just help me with my memory
of it, or I can't even say that.
There's a couple subspecies
of American bison.
There's woods and plains.
Is that correct?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
that's right.
And and actually so the planes are the
ones that, that were out on the Great
Plains and those would have rained,
roamed initially all the way down
through, eastern states, Kansas, and
then further east and even into the
Shenandoah Valley and that kind of stuff.
So they were quite widespread.
The wood bison we're generally in
the boreal forest in the north,
so northern Alberta, Saskatchewan,
Manitoba, all the way up into the Yukon
Alaska, northern British Columbia.
But there were a couple of what they
think were subspecies of those, which
there was a subpopulation that, that
was in the mountains both in Alberta
and then down through Montana and into
Colorado and stuff that, that generally
tended to be a resident herd that lived
in the mountain valleys and threw into
Oregon and other places like that.
Now whether those were actually a
subspecies or not we're not really
sure but there's people who think that
they possibly were slightly different
but they would have been effectively
plains bison but a little, perhaps maybe
slightly adapted to that environment.
And then there's a group of bison that
we call the parkland bison now that are
effectively a blend of plains and woods.
The natural ranges of the two
herds overlapped in the, what we
call the parkland region, which is
effectively skirting the boreal.
So we live in park, we
live in parkland here.
So it's like aspen, aspen forest and
open grasses, in its natural state.
And and there was what they
call the resident parkland herd
back in the, pre settlement.
And and that herd as we've discovered
were a bunch of animals that just from
looking at the way the two different
subspecies act and how the offspring act
with regard to open spaces versus more,
bush country it looks as though the ones
that are crosses are less comfortable
out in the open without having any cover.
Whereas,
Like the wood bison, you expect that.
And so there's a, it's a speculation,
but it's probably a fairly well educated
guess that the resident herd, as they
called them, the parkland resident
herd would have been made up of hybrids
between the two subspecies and the
northern plains herd would move in to the
parkland in the winter and that would go
back out onto the plains in the summer,
but there was a smaller subpopulation
that stayed in the parkland year round.
And those ones were probably ones that
were, 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation offspring
of crosses between wood bulls and plains
cows or vice versa, so anyway So that's
where we are with what we understand
about the two subspecies We've done a
bunch of research on it in Canada the
Canadian bison Association and a couple
other organizations, but led by the CBA
Did a bunch of genomics research on bison
and we developed a new snip test a single
nucleotide polymorphism test You to work
out subspecies differentiation, cattle
integration parentage and stuff like that.
So that test is now up and running.
It's run through Neogen.
It's available for both, both
American and Canadian producers.
And and so we've, in Canada, we've come
up with a a, an idea of where we're
going to go in terms of herd registry
management and how we classify the animals
based on what their genetics looks like.
So that's where we're at,
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh, interesting.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
but we've stuck with pure plain.
So
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: well, I know
in the little bit that I've read and
seen that there's bovine genetics
into bison into a lot of the herds.
Is that correct or am
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535: Yes.
Yes, and no
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: somewhat?
Oh,
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
You'll hear this quite a bit.
We it depends on the testing we
originally tested using the Texas A&
M test while she was run by California
Davis which is A microsatellite test
and by 2017 we had 100 percent pure
herd with showing no cattle integration.
when we came out with the new test
we submitted 130 odd samples into
the original research project.
And then and then we've had our whole
herd tested, ongoing since then.
And we found when we went to the
high, this higher fidelity test
that's got about 10, 000 polymorphisms
determining cattle integration.
We found that we've, that we had, off
of thinking about it, probably around
about, I think, 30 percent showed a
small amount of cattle integration.
But if you look at the percentages, the
amount of integration that's actually in
the bison herd, it's incredibly small.
And there's this thing called
genetic clustering involved, where
you might have an animal that tests
out at, say, 6 percent bovine, and
then its offspring will test pure.
Because that, that 6 percent of genes
are in what they call a genetic cluster.
So the parent will pass on that whole
cluster as a, in one chunk or maybe
two chunks or not at all, depending
on which side of its own genome
gets passed on to the offspring.
And so we've had a bunch of discussions
within our conservation committee
about how this effect works.
And I've got a, one of a friend
of mine who works in Saskatchewan.
He's a genetic.
He's involved in genetics at in Saskatoon.
His family have bison as well, so he's
got bison, plus he's a geneticist ish.
And and we've worked with Neogen.
And so we think that a lot of the genetics
that appear, like Custer, I think Custer
State Park has got the largest, the
highest level of cattle integration
that we know of so far, at the moment.
But that cattle integration is slowly
dropping out of the herd because it's
because of this genetic clustering effect.
And now that we have a tool that we can
manage the genetics I think there's less
of an issue in terms of worrying about
cattle integration because now you can,
let's just say you've got 10 heifers you
want to choose as heifers to hold back.
You can hold back the 10 that have a
lower level of cattle integration and
over a period of generation, not very many
generations you end up with pure animals.
And so it's interesting that
we now have a tool to do that.
So.
The the people panicking about the
number of cattle or bison with cattle
integration, I think is well, I can
understand it going, if you went back to
what people understood of the science 20
years ago, but now I think it's a bit less
of an issue because we have a much better
tool, that's much better toolbox for
dealing with it, and I think over a period
of of the next 20 years or so there'll be
a much larger population of bison, even in
private hands that, that test 100 percent
pure genetically just because guys will
be able to manage the herds that way.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Having
that tool available makes that
management so much easier and better.
I can see the full benefit of
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Oh yeah, definitely.
And so we've, we were
obviously early adopters.
We had our herd tested
using the previous tool.
We were the first fully tested herd in
Canada and and and we've stuck with it.
And so we're still, I'm on the
conservation committee for the
CBA and a registry committee.
So, it's an ongoing project, but but
I think it's a really good sign that
the cattle integration in the herd,
across North America is not as big an
issue as some people may have thought.
and what is there is manageable and
we can generally work away from it.
So, as long as people don't panic and
do something rash in the short term we
should be able to preserve the bison
genome without, without having to
retain the cattle genetics over time.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh yes, yeah.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Yeah.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: And
Steward we're going to talk
more about grazing in a little
So we're going to jump more towards
the end of the process in that
how do you market your bison?
Are they through meat sales?
Are you selling breeding stock?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Well, we do a combination.
Because we got a pure plains herd
and dad came out of the purebred
industry, his instinct was
breeding stock, seed stock herd.
And so we do a bit of that.
So we're selling a few bulls
every year and we sell a bunch
of bread heifers every year.
But that's, there's not, the
industry is not big enough for
that to be the entire piece.
It's a one of the enterprises
we run or two of them the
bread heifers and the bulls.
But when I look at it, I
came back to the ranch and I.
I came out of the military,
I was a military helicopter
pilot, flight commander.
I I was a rancher just by proxy,
showing up and helping out when I could.
But I didn't really understand the
business side of it and and it took
me longer than I'd, than probably
should have to figure that out.
And I actually went away to
business school to figure this out.
But we the industry as a whole is based
around the meat market and predominantly,
probably about 60 percent of the business
well, this pre COVID, it might be less
now, but certainly pre COVID, 60 percent
of the bison industry was food service.
So we're talking hotels, restaurants
bars, that kind of stuff.
And and so we market, the
majority of our animals get mark,
marketed into the meat market.
Our.
Our yearling bulls, so just when
they're one year, we keep back
the ones that are going to be bull
prospects and the rest they get sold
into guys who are going to feed them
out and put them into that market.
The rest of the animals on the ranch
we keep until we market them ourselves.
So our heifers we keep until they're
two years old and they either go into
the breeding herd as bred heifers,
either as replacements or to sell.
Or they go into our feed group.
which get fed out and we market them.
We market most of them locally.
I say some of the meat goes further
away because a couple of the local
marketers market it to Europe and stuff.
But we sell them in smaller groups
to a couple of the local marketers.
And some of it's going out to Quebec.
Some of them, a smaller percentage of
them end up getting shipped south to be
processed in the States for your market.
Of the ones we have, obviously
the vast majority of Canadian
bison end up going south.
But we have a bunch that end up going
to Europe and Quebec just because
of the guys that we're marketing to.
And so they're
processed in Alberta and then
the meat is shipped from here.
And then we also, on the side, we have
a small butcher shop and pantry market
in a town about 50 miles away from here.
My sister manages that, that butcher
shop and it's like a European
style artisan butcher shop and
we do all local sourcing there.
So beef, bison, yak, pork, chicken,
turkey, whatever, a whole bunch of
stuff, eggs, a little bit of dairy.
And and so we, we move a bunch
of our, odds and ends and what
have you through the store.
We market quarters and halves
from our feeder heifers.
We market those through the store.
Some of them are marketed directly
through the store, some of them are
marketed through a partnership with
a grass fed beef marketing group.
they've got customers that want bison as
well, so we so we market, I don't know,
it's not huge numbers, but through the
winter we were probably averaging I'm
guessing two animals a month in quarters
and halves going through that market.
So, so we've got our fingers in a
bunch of pies and sometimes it feels
like there's too many pies and we
need a couple of bigger pies rather
than a whole bunch of small ones.
But anyway that's where
we're at right now.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: With your
bison, are you finishing them with grain?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Yeah.
So we're finishing with
what we call a mixed ration.
We've done a little bit of grass
finishing, but without being able
to manage the grass properly.
I had a bit of a grass finishing disaster
a few years ago, and so I thought,
I'm not going back into that until
I've got the infrastructure for it.
'cause it's a bit of an art form.
And if you can't.
If you can't keep, if you can't keep
them on fresh high bricks grass,
then then you're looking for trouble.
So, what we do is we
feed them a mixed ration.
Bison won't eat as much grain as cattle.
They don't like it.
They're not as healthy on it.
And
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
and so, we feed them, they've got free
choice hay or grass, cause, some of them,
they spend a lot of the time on pasture,
but they've also got access to a feeder.
And And so they got free choice
hay, hay or grass and and
then we feed a pellet blend.
Some of the pellets have been like a
pea and lentil screening pellet, which
we used for quite a few years, which
is a good one, but the prices went
through the roof, so we switched over.
And we're now using a we're using
a mill run pellet right now.
So that'll be mostly wheat.
We've recently used a malt
sprout pellet as well.
And and a couple other blends.
But they're mostly pelleted.
We don't, we're not feeding
any straight barley or straight
corn or anything like that.
It's a pellet blend and it generally
tends to be something like a
screening pellet or a mill run.
And that's where we're at.
And there, just so people have an
idea in terms of grain fed, I've
got a local beef guy who's a pale
a chop by the fence type beef guy.
But he's still feeding
a pretty high ration.
He gets up to between 16 and
22 pounds of grain a day when
he's finishing his steers.
So the, they're eating a lot as
a beef animal and some guys are
up to 26 to 30 pounds a day.
So it's a really high grain ration.
Whereas the bison, even our bigger bison
bulls, when we're finishing them out,
we've got like nine that we're going
to market in the next couple of weeks.
Those guys are still only eating maybe
four and a half pounds a day, maybe five.
So there's a big, there's
a big difference there.
In the consumption of grain or pellets
versus green forage with bison.
And and like we say, we're
just free choice, and that's
generally when they settle out at.
And the heifers, they're a bit smaller,
they might only be eating three
pounds a day when they're finished.
So, most of what they're
eating is green forage.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh, yes.
Very interesting.
Steward it's time, we're going to go ahead
and transition to our overgrazing section.
You'd mentioned there about you tried to
grass finish and you need to do a little
bit more on your grazing management.
Well, paddock grazing and
the infrastructure which
feeds right into that.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Yeah, okay.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: So, to, grazing
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
That's right, yep.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: How are you doing
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Okay, well, when I arrived back
on the ranch, we were doing.
The best term would be,
rotational overgrazing.
So we had one herd was in a
large, in a pasture, or pasture
complex that had five paddocks.
But the problem with that
is that it only had water,
reliable water in three of them.
So in the springtime we could graze
through five paddocks but come, mid
to late June when the water started
drying up, then we were down to three
paddocks and it's quite sandy soil which
doesn't do well under, under heavy,
late continuous or heavy continuous
grazing, which is effective, but what
you're doing, even if you're rotating
just through three paddocks, let's say
you're doing 10 days here, two weeks
there, two weeks there, and then back
again your rest periods aren't long
enough Your exposure times are too long.
So you've, overgrazing is going to happen.
There's nothing you can do about it.
And then our bigger herd we had
originally split into two, but just
because of bull genetics and and those
were on in pat, basically in a pat,
a complex was just two pastures each.
So it was just a two way
rotation for two herds.
And so that's where we were when I got,
when I came back to the ranch in 2017.
And in the meantime though, cause
I was here part time up in for
three or four years before that
we had started looking at more
regenerative stuff and soil health.
So our hay land that was that was
not in particularly good shape.
We, we switched it over to polyculture.
And and made silage bales off of 12
species polyculture, cover crop mix in.
And we've done that on
various parts of the land.
Just making sure we increase
the biodiversity in the stand.
Putting in stuff that's going
to over the long term and then
replacing it with perennials that's
got a much more diverse blend.
So that we've got the.
We've got the biodiversity to
then move on to the next stage.
So we started that in 2016.
So a bit before I came back full time
and then and then but we didn't really
do much about the grazing until I
was back and I tried and figured out
exactly what we were going to do to try
and, deal with the over grazing issue.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: So, how are
you combating, combat, combating?
I cannot talk today.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Yeah, no worries.
Well, I initially I went, I wanted to
learn more about it and I did just a
short seminar at a Bison convention with
Roland Cruz, who's who's out of he's
out of Billings, I think but he's with
HMI, Holistic Management International.
Yeah, and so I Roland was running a
Holistic Management seminar series.
That specialized for bison guys, although
there were lots of beef guys on it as
well, down at Durham Ranch in Wyoming.
And and so in 2018 I went and down,
I went down and did the holistic
bit management stuff with Roland and
those guys down there which was a,
which was good because I'd done a
bunch of reading on regenerative ag
and I started understanding the whole
grass growth cycle overgrazing issue.
Because I'm a science guy.
So I immediately turned around,
my engineering brain went to work.
I had to figure this stuff out.
And so, I went down and did that.
But what it didn't do was give me the, I
would highly recommend holistic management
to anyone who's thinking about it.
Go do that.
But what it didn't teach me was in
sufficient depth or yeah, sufficient
depth, is the business side of it.
Because
matter what you do, you
have to pay the bills.
And and so in 2021, I went to
ranching for profit with RMC.
It was in the middle of COVID, so I
had to fly all the way to Pennsylvania
and I'll go through all the nonsense.
But anyway,
what a disaster.
But anyway so I, it was really good.
I was at Harrisburg,
Pennsylvania, did that.
So I had a really diverse group of
people who had goats and sheep and
potato farmers and, Like I say,
a really diverse group of people.
So it was it was great to,
to learn with and from them.
And and that, that opened my eyes
up to the business side of it.
And I really did the deep dive on it.
And then I realized, nearly had
a heart attack once I ran the
numbers of where we were at.
Cause I was was one of those
things where I couldn't see
how the business model worked.
And when I went through it,
I thought, you know what?
So many farms and ranches are in this
position in North America where people
are in it because their families were
in it and they've got the land but
almost none of them are profitable.
and and so I, I did RMC and then when
I got back from RMC I started working
on the plan and I was a little bit
slower getting going than I maybe should
have been because it was like a, it
was such a culture shock particularly
for my dad who's, looking at this
and thinking all these ideas are a
little bit crazy that I wanted to
jump off a cliff and take him with me.
But I just worked out that
there was no way we were going
to survive if we didn't change.
And and so, I started last
year in earnest on a major
infrastructure development program.
And so that half section I was
mentioning that had five paddocks,
that only three had water, That, that
half section is now divided into 19
paddocks, all of which have water.
And within that 19 paddocks, I have
the option, I, and I don't have the
time to do it right now because I'm
still in the middle of this project
on the home section here, but we've
got the option to be able to further
subdivide using temporary electric.
And so I can, I,
I can get to 38, 40, 50 paddocks.
fairly quickly if I need to now.
I've got the water, I've got the main
fencing infrastructure and the water
infrastructure in to be able to do that.
So, so that's what I'm doing there.
And so that herd from about the beginning
of August last year 10th of August, I
think I managed, I was up and running.
That herd has been we're in adaptive
management and I've actually got to go
and move them today after we talk here.
Into the next paddock.
So, so that's where
we're at with that herd.
The bigger herd here at home
we got into it last fall.
The finding, finding the money to be
able to do this was very tight because
we're, COVID actually hammered us.
It shut down the food service
industry across North America and
completely destroyed our market.
So cash flow went out the window.
So our, we probably lost 300,
000 in revenue over three years
which is really hard to stomach.
Fortunately, I've, fortunately I've got
a small military pension, otherwise I
wouldn't even be here, but, anyway we
we got involved in a government program
which supports investment in regenerative
agriculture, so, polyculture cropping
adaptive grazing, and various other
programs, so you can get some financial
support for infrastructure investment.
And and so I got involved in that and so
as of late, later last year, we started
a, the phase two of our program, which was
to get our home place ranch cross fenced.
And so we're getting towards the latter
stages of that now, so it's not 100
percent there, it's not perfect yet, but
by the end of the year I'll have the home
section will have about 40, the main herd
will be running through about I think
it's 41 or 42 paddocks, all with water.
And the intent isn't to maintain them as
one herd in the longer term because we
are still in the breeding stock business.
But what I will have is I'll have
one herd running through 18 and
the other herd running through
the rest next year probably.
And that way I can take the
bowls of one bloodline in one
set of paddocks and the others.
And then I can temporary, I can use
temporary electric to subdivide further
as the situation demands to further manage
the, the grasses because we've got a
mixture of tame grass and native parkland.
And so, the bison naturally
prefer the native parkland.
So if you put them in a paddock
that's half smooth brome and
half native rough fescue.
They'll go sit on the fescue, and
destroy it, and leave the brome and so,
I've got to start using next year,
I've got to start using temporary
electric to minimize their impact on
the native species and make sure that
they're utilizing the tame species.
And there's just, it's not all of
our paddocks, but there are there's
probably five of those forty two that
have got an issue where I have to put
a bit of effort into managing those
in a little bit more fine detail.
And then of course, with anything
adaptive, over time you discover that
that there are more issues will pop up
you'll start noticing different things
with different plant recoveries etc.
So there's no doubt that my temporary
electric fencing will will continue
to expand over the coming years.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: With
your infrastructure you put in to
make those initial paddocks, what
are you using for your fencing
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Okay I, I designed a system myself.
I looked at the cost of putting in
fencing and, if you're looking at T
posts get, They get fairly expensive.
The cost of wood posts went through the
roof and, I'm dealing with bison, so
I've got to have a reasonable fence.
And I worked out that, I worked out
that I need a top wear about 50,
57, 56, 57 inches, realistically.
That's probably a little bit of
overkill if I'm running electric,
which I am, but but but 48's just a
little bit short, if that makes sense.
So I want to be over 50,
anyway, 52, 54, at least.
And so I got a hold of a bunch of
sucker rod out of the oil industry
just and started cutting posts
and figuring out how do I insulate
a sucker rod, at a price point.
And so I developed a system where
I use two pieces of poly pipe.
I have a about a two inch long
chunk of three quarter poly pipe
and a two inch chunk of one inch
poly with a slit down the side.
Yeah.
and they just go on like
over top of each other.
And then I use an easy twist tie
which is a fencing tie system
used developed for page wire.
Not for page wire, for a chain link.
and the one that fits an inch and three
quarter chain link post works just
fine if I've got a 7 8 sucker rod with
those two bits of plastic around it.
And and so the first, that first section
where we did, I forget, it's about four,
four and a bit kilometers of fence,
we did three wire electrics, so I did
two, two hot wires on the top and then
a ground wire running along the bottom,
all insulated but then I went back as
an alumni to Ranching for Profit again
in February here, and talking to a
couple of the bison guys that are doing
similar stuff and they've, a lot of
them have been experimenting with two
wire fences and so for the fencing we're
doing now we've gone down to two wires.
So I've got one at, one at 56, 57
inches at the top, another one at
about hip height at the bottom,
both hot, and and that's it.
Leave them.
And it works quite well because the deer
will go the does, we've got both muley
and whitetail here, they'll go under
the bottom wire without touching it.
And we get the odd pronghorn, we're not
really in pronghorn country, but we get
the odd one here and there, and they
go under the wire as well, and so, the
wildlife can move the moose will go over
the top, and the deer go underneath,
and it seems to work, so, obviously,
I'll let you know in a couple of years
how well it works, but But so that
so right now that's what we're doing.
And so if I'm doing an alley where
they're gonna be a bit more crowded
I'm still putting the three wire on
but if I'm just doing cross fencing
for Separating paddocks and I'm using a
two wire fence two wire electric Yeah,
and using a steel sucker rod post and
I'm still using wood for the braces.
I Experimented with some sucker rod
braces, but they're just too flexible.
They the You can use steel pipe
if it's bigger, but using a small
1 inch sucker rod is too flexible
if you build a brace out of it.
It just can't hold the tension.
And and I, I figured out how to
stop them pulling out of the ground.
I just weld some barbs on the bottom, some
nails as barbs, so I can get them to not
pull out, but they're still too flexible.
So I, we went back to wood, and so we're
using a standard wood brace at the ends
with steel sucker rod posts in between.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh, very good.
Very good.
For your temporary fences, how
are you doing temporary fences?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
I'm still experimenting.
I've got some of the standard step
in well they call them 48 inch
posts, but they're only 40 inch when
the, with the spike in the ground.
and I've used that and I use it
with yearlings and I'm doing it
in a, I'll be doing it in a, in
another week or so in our yard.
I'll just, I'll graze a few of our our
feeder yearlings and stuff in the yard.
And it seems to work but there's the
step in pigtails that you can buy.
There's a, there's guys building them for
bison and they're a little bit higher and
I can't remember what the top of that is.
I think that's at about 42 inches.
But there's a company down,
a company down in the States, and I'm
gonna try, I'm trying to find a Canadian
supplier who can get them in, that's
building a 60 inch step in post, the
plastic step in with the multi hooks
down the side that 60 inch when you step
it in gives you a 50, the top wire is
at 51 or 52 inches so I'd like to get a
few of those and it's, maybe it's just
for my own psychology, To have that
one wire a little bit higher, but but
two wires on electric seems to work.
we've had guys experimenting with a single
wire, and where they're not crowded it
works, when they've got lots of space,
but if you're trying to graze them a bit
more intently the bison don't seem to,
they'll blow through a single wire fence,
whereas a two wire fence with the top wire
at the right height seems to be, and with,
a decent electric fence seems to work.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: oh very good.
That was, interesting to me.
I was wondering what you would have to
do different up a cattle fence because
so often we just use one strand.
So I thought it had to be different.
So that was interesting to see
how you're doing it differently
for the bison to respect it and
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
like, like right now I'm experimenting
around my watering point.
So I've got a watering point, for example,
that the animals are using right now.
That's got access to four paddocks.
And so while they're in one, they
can come up and it's just, it's
basically just an open box and I've
built like a 60 foot gate across
on the permanent ones with it's a
combination barbed wire and electric.
And I use PVC pipe posts.
Okay.
Because you don't have to
worry about insulating them.
I can just use my twist
ties and tie them on.
But I've been experimenting with
just using temporary around one
of the boxes and it seems to work.
I'm using the standard step in
posts, so the top wire is at say
40 inches, something like that.
And there's enough juice on the wire
and the animals have got enough feed.
It seems they're not pushing it.
So, I don't know whether I could use
that on a longer run across a foal.
a field where, animals are
likely to, run into it in the
dark or something like that.
But around that watering point where
the animals have got a very defined
box that they know where everything
is, it seems to work at the moment.
So watch this space.
It's working right now.
I'm not saying it's going to work
in, I don't know, a day's time,
so we're still experimenting.
Yeah.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Do you
think your bison that you're raising
that's been exposed more to that
temporary fence will respect it more
as adults and maybe not give it?
So you may be working yourself out of
some issues that you would have now.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Yeah, I think so.
In fact, the bison, once they respect
electric probably even more than beef do.
yeah.
And and so I've found if I've got fence
that is new and they don't know what it
is they'll push it, they'll go through it.
But if it's hot, they very quickly learn.
And then they become
habituated to it very quickly.
And they'll avoid it to the, in
their brain, it bites, it's a
predator, and they stay away from it.
They'll go up they'll go up close,
they'll graze up to the bottom of
it, but they don't push it at all.
There's no pressure on it.
And whereas, beef will pressure even
an electric fence if they want to,
some of them will depending on how
much, what sort of energizer you got.
But the bison don't seem to, and
we've actually had, generally what
happens is bison tend to, they learn
their pasture boundary very quickly,
and then even in the dark, if they're
startled, they won't go through a fence.
They know exactly where
they are all the time.
And if they stampede in the dark.
They'll get towards the fence line and
they'll turn left or right, they'll
avoid it, even if they can't see it in
the dark because they know it's there.
The issue we have is if you put new
animals into a paddock, and if you
put them in late in the day and they
haven't had a chance to explore the
boundaries before dark, and then they
get startled by a moose or whatever
during the night, then they can
then end up going through a fence.
So I think that temporary electric The
key is not so much that the animals
understand what it is, but that you
put it in at the time of day where
they have a chance to explore it.
And once,
if you let them in, let's say I'm moving
the animals at say 2 in the afternoon,
let them into a paddock that's got a
temporary electric boundary on it at
2 in the afternoon they've got plenty
of time, they'll go and explore,
they'll do a bit of grazing and then
they'll go explore the whole perimeter.
They'll find it where all the fences
are and then you don't have a problem.
But if I let them in there in the
evening when it's just about to
get dark and they haven't had time
to figure out where everything is,
that's when you have a problem.
So that's what I've discovered so far.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh, interesting.
Yes.
With your bison and you're using your
electric fence, are there some grazing
behaviors that you've identified that's
different than cattle that's interesting?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Well, even before we started
doing this, the grazing behaviors
have always been different.
They mob graze, naturally.
It's very rare to have the herd completely
spread out across a field, like beef,
you can put 100 beef into a 400 acre
pasture and they'll spread out evenly
across it if you give them the chance.
And then if the wind starts blowing,
they'll all drift into wind, bison
on the other hand, you let them out
into a pasture and, you put a herd
of, 90 into a pasture and they'll
all be in two or three acres.
And even if the pasture is 100 acres,
the bison will all still be in a cluster.
They'll spread out a bit.
They're, if they're, they might be
down to only, they might go down
to only 10, 10 animals per acre.
Maybe 10 to 12 is where
they're comfortable at.
As soon as someone comes out there
and disturbs them, they cluster up
to 20 or 30 animals for the acre.
But they don't spread out beyond about 10.
I, I'm thinking maybe 10,
guessing 10 animals for the acre
is where they're comfortable.
Except, once we do, we wean the animals,
I have noticed, if you wean the animals
wean the head calves, and then the cows
are back out in the pasture on their own,
they'll spread out a little bit more when
they haven't got a calf by their side.
And I think that's just
a instinctive thing.
And so you'll occasionally
get them spread out.
The bulls wander off on their own on a
regular basis outside of the breeding
season, so that's, but that's You know,
there'll be four or five of the old
bulls will be off on their own or maybe
six of them Doing their own thing,
but even then they're not spread out.
They'll be in a small cluster
somewhere They're just separate
from the rest of the herd
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh yeah.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
So yeah, so they do mob graze Naturally,
it's not as intense as the guys who
are deliberately mobbing animals
to have high impact on the land But
they do mob graze naturally So they
It's just their natural instinct.
That's how they protect themselves
and they haven't lost that.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Yeah,
and talking about weaning calves
and such, do you or are your cows
calving every year with bison?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Yeah.
Yeah, we
yeah, we Well the last we've had we're
in our fourth year of really severe
drought here right now So we've got
sloughs drying up around here That the
old boys around here haven't seen dry
since 1933 So and there aren't many guys
around left to witness that so So we're,
so that is, that's quite a challenge,
but and it's resulted in a slight, in
a smaller calf crop than we normally
would get but I've had, but I've had we,
we generally are in the 95%, calf crop
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh okay.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
sort of area 90 or just under 90.
The last couple of years because
severe drought, we just didn't get the
breed back that we were looking for.
Just, it's a body condition
issue under drought conditions.
But I hope, aiming for recovering
that with the grazing, if you can
control the grazing and keep decent,
nutrition in front of them through that
critical period as they're going, late
July and the breeding season starts.
If the cows are in good condition
and gaining condition, then then
we should be comfortably in the
mid nineties for breed back.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh, yes.
And you mentioned earlier with
the grass fed, the making sure
your bricks are high enough.
Are you measuring bricks
Your pastures now?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
I'm not, no, I'm just, it's just it's
one of these things, well, I, rather
than measuring bricks, I'm just looking
at, okay, if I'm, if I got a choice of
moving animals in the morning or in the
early afternoon, I'm going to move them
at lunchtime so that they're on to,
they're on to the high bricks grass.
Cause you know, give or take two o'clock
in the afternoon is where you're.
Your plants are at, highest production.
So, that, it's just, it's
more of just a timing thing.
If I'm, if I've got the option, if
I've got the option of moving them
when the grass, when the plants are at
full growth, mid, midday or just after
midday, then that's when I'll move them.
And and then, I'll
figure it out from there.
But right now I'm still, So, neck
deep in infrastructure that that
take a little bit of time to settle
down and figure out the rest.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Well, Steward it is time for us to
move to our famous four questions
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cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Same four
questions we ask of all of our guests.
first question.
What is your favorite grazing
grass related book or resource?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Favourite resource I think my
favourite resource is, goes back
to that I refer back to regularly
is is Savory's original work.
And that, it would be a toss
up between that and Grass
Productivity by André Voisin.
Who's
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: yes,
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
the original guy that had a look
at this stuff back in the fifties.
So, yeah, between those two, for sure.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: very good.
Our second question, what's
your favorite tool for the farm?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
My favorite tool for the farm.
Honestly John Deere gator.
And it wouldn't have to be a John
Deere, but just that, that's been a.
We didn't have one for most of my life.
The dad never had a quad or a
gator or whatever around, but it's
just, it's such a handy little rig.
It's low fuel consumption and
going out, checking fences, fixing
fences, checking the animals.
It's a great, it's a great machine.
So no I glad to have that around.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Oh yes, my
parents have a mule and I actually used it
a day or two ago and normally I never use
But I'd use it every day and I was
thinking, maybe I do need one of these.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, they're handy.
Definitely handy.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Our third
question, what would you tell
someone just getting started?
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
I would say go into it
with your eyes wide open.
I would recommend, I recommend holistic
management and ranching for profit,
but I did them in the wrong order.
I wish
be in a much better position right
now if I'd have done ranching for
profit business school first and then
followed up with holistic management.
Cause effectively ranching
for profit teaches you how to
keep your head above water.
And then holistic management
gives you the technical details to
maximize your grazing management.
But yeah, that's, if someone's
just thinking about getting
into it don't just dive in.
Call up RMC and go, at the very
least, go do ranching for profit.
You'll never regret it.
Even if you decide that it teaches
you not to do something, you'll still
never, you'll still never regret it.
And then go do then once you've done
that and you've figured out what
the direction you want to go in,
then go do a, then go to a holistic
management with either Savory Global
or HMI, either one they're both great.
They're both great organizations.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527:
wonderful advice there.
And lastly Steward where can
others find out more about you?
Oh,
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
or mflbisonranch.
ca One of those redirects to the
other so you'll get to the same page.
And there's some contact details on there.
I don't keep that site as up to date
as I probably should because I'm busy
with a bunch of other stuff right now.
But our contact details are on
there and there's a little bit
of information about our ranch.
And And then we have a store
in Sullivan Lake, Alberta
which is the Ranchgate Market.
It's a separate business, but it's where
we market a bunch of our animals through.
And there's a little website there
my sister maintains and and so if
you're ever in central Alberta, stop
by there for some of the world's best
bacon and some excellent bison jerky.
And and we carry our own
products in that store.
And I've got Savory's book for sale in
that store and Voisin's book and some
of Joel Salatin's books are for sale.
So, you can start your reading
whilst eating some good bison jerky.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527:
there you go, yes.
Well, very good.
Steward we really appreciate you
coming on and sharing with us today.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
No, thanks for having me.
It's been really good.
And and I'm hoping that, I can maybe
get some feedback and learn something
from From this this whole experience.
cal_2_07-19-2024_092527: Hopefully so.
I know our listeners will benefit from it.
So, again, thank you.
squadcaster-ag6c_2_07-19-2024_082535:
All right.
You're welcome.
It's been a pleasure.
Cal: I really hope you
enjoyed today's conversation.
I know I did.
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