019 | Negroni vs. Old Fashioned type of cities: how trending cocktails change between cities and can be used as target occasions | with Krista Schubert from Overproof (Miami, FL, USA)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this single episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Krista Schubert from Overproof, an AI-powered market intelligence platform & field execution software for the beverage alcohol industry. She has extensive industry experience and brings incredible insights and data to our chat.

If you are interested in using OverProof, you can do it ⁠here⁠ and get $250 discount.

Main topics discussed:

From 0 to 1 bottle

• The importance of the Target Occasion

• How occasions change by City and State

• How to choose the correct city to start building your brand

From 1 bottle to 1 case

• Brand Owners' vs. Distributors' approaches to city strategies

• Analyzing cocktail menus to decide where to focus on

• Avoid brands vs. following brands: different strategies

From 1 case to 1 pallet

• Big brands vs. Small brands approaches

• How to move from one City / State to the next

• How Independent Bottle Shops can complement your On-trade strategy

About the Host: ⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Maffeo⁠⁠⁠ 

About the Guest: Krista Schubert

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Krista Schubert

Head of Sales | Overproof

What is MAFFEO DRINKS: Industry & Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Hi and welcome to the Mafair
Drinks Podcast.

I'm Chris Mafair, founder of
Mafair Drinks, where we provide

the nonsense approach to
building drinks brands from the

bottom up.
I will be your host and in each

episode I will interview a
drinks builder from the drinks

and hospitality ecosystem.
In episode 19, I had the

pleasure of interviewing Krista
Schubert from Overproof and a I

powered market intelligence
platform and field execution

software for the beverage Alco
industry.

She has extensive industry
experience and she brings

incredible insights and data to
our chat.

Hi, Krista, how you doing?
Hi, Krista.

I'm doing good.
How are you?

Good.
Good, good.

All good in Miami.
All great.

Thanks so much for having me on
today.

Absolutely, absolutely.
It will be a very interesting

conversation because you bring a
different kind of perspective

compared to the usual guests to
the show with brand owners or

bartenders and you've got a lot
of data to prove what you are

and to back up what you're
saying.

Definitely, yeah.
I'm super excited to be here and

to give you a fresh perspective,
some new insights from the data

world.
Nice.

So let's start with one of the
things that I always talk about.

It's talking about building
demand.

So the old thing about being
able to build the demand before

you can capture it because I
mean you're working with brands,

with drinks brands specifically.
And one of the issues that I

feel that many states people
have is that they basically end

up in front of people that don't
want to buy and like they've

never heard about that brand
before.

So there's there's a bit of a
struggle with you know when do

you build the man and when is
the right time to go into the

trade and and actually showing
your face, right.

So what's your experience on
that?

Yeah.
So I think there's a couple

different ways that you can go
about building your brand.

One of them is obviously getting
in front of the consumer when

you first launched, I recently
went to a great launch party for

a zoning Coastal Lemon Spritz
brand.

They did a lemon themed party
that fit the brand very well,

obviously Lemon Spirits and they
did it at a waterfront bar and

they invited not only people in
the industry, but they also

invited consumers as well.
So there was a good mix of

people there and got the name
out there.

They did a whole social media
thing, asked everybody to post

using the hashtag.
So you know, they were able to

generate that buzz around the
brand lodge.

So that's one way to go about
it, host an event.

Another way is to go into the
spirit specific festivals.

So they have them all over the
country, for example, Miami

Whiskey Mash or New York Rum
Festival or the DC Tequila Agave

Festival getting into those and
they're not only consumer

facing, but the Rum Lab hosts
then they also have trade days

too.
So you'll be able to get both in

front of the consumer and in
front of potential accounts.

So that's a good way to go about
launching your brands and

generate brand awareness now
getting into the on premise.

You want to make sure that you
are educating the bar backs, the

bar owners, the bartenders,
beverage directors about your

brand, right?
So hosting a specific event at

an on premise location and
inviting bartenders in the area

is a good way to do that too.
So for example, there is a vodka

brand that I recently saw post
on social media where they're

doing a bartender happy hour at
a steakhouse and they're doing a

little competition and whoever
wins the competition gets a

bartending kit to take home.
So that's a good way to kind of

get your name out there in terms
of on premise too.

This is very interesting what
you're saying from a kind of

like trade or consumer fair kind
of perspective to launch events

and these kind of things, but
then also like going into the on

trade, right.
So from previous experience of

working with brands, how do they
actually select the venues where

they want to sell?
You know, do they just go out

there kind of like randomly or
do you feel they actually do

their homework before before
entering your city?

So it really depends on the
brand and I've seen both cases

happen where there are some
brand reps that will kind of go

out there Willy nilly and not
really have a strategy.

And they'll just go into the
accounts where they have

friends, right.
And they're not really selecting

them based on a strategy per se.
They're just going into where

they know people and it might
not be the best fit for the

product that they're trying to
sell.

Now there are some brand
ambassadors and sales reps out

there that do their research and
they.

Our the web and they do online
desk research before they go out

to try to find some good
accounts that would fit their

brands.
The people that come to us to

use overproof, they're able to
create target accounts that's

with our software and that's
obviously the easier way to go

about it because it saves you a
lot of time.

It's based on our database and
artificial intelligence.

So that will save you tons of
time doing desk research.

Nice.
You know the brands you work

with, obviously they want to do
their homework because otherwise

they wouldn't get in touch with
you in the 1st place now.

But how do they usually select
you know, like do they go by, I

don't know, like outlet,
typology, I'll talk a lot about

segmentation for example.
And you know, on trade

segmentation and there's
different ways of segmenting

outlets in my opinion.
Like, you know, you can take the

more kind of like traditional
way where you go like pubs, bar,

steakhouse, burger joint,
Italian restaurant, Chinese

restaurant, whatever, and then
you name it.

Or you can actually go by by
target or more like by target

occasion.
No.

So, you know, an Italian, not
all Italian restaurants are the

same.
You know, some places have a bar

with a terrorist that you can
never, I don't know, an

appetitivo.
Some others are more like kind

of like this white and red
checker, the tablecloth with the

grandma cooking in the kitchen.
Right.

So do they have different takes
or how do they do that?

Yeah.
So they might be interested in

going like to use the Italian
restaurant for an example,

right?
The strategy, let's say I have a

gin brand, right?
And I'm trying to get into

Italian restaurants that have
Negronis on the menu.

So I might want to go into all
the Italian restaurants in the

area where I know they serve
spirits because a lot of Italian

restaurants only sell, you know,
wine and beer, right.

So I'm going to create my
strategy based on the Italian

restaurants that sell spirits.
Now that's gonna require me to

do a lot of account visits to
Italian restaurants, and some

people will go about it that
way, like going into the field

doing their account visits.
Or you can, you know, create an

account set using a technology
where you know exactly where to

go before, you know, going into
a bunch of Italian restaurants.

So do you see it, let's say like
a two kind of tier, you know,

like that the first level that
you know some brands stop at is

okay.
Italian restaurant is already

enough because I'm not going to
stay houses, so I've already

streamlined my selection, so to
say.

And then there's another level
when they actually go for, OK,

I've got a vermouth brand, so I
want to go where Negroni is

sold.
Yeah.

And they might even go a step
further to see what other brands

are on that menu, right.
So they might be going into

accounts and analyzing the menu
themselves to see Okay.

My competitor, for example,
might be Hendricks.

I'm going to see if there are
any Hendricks, Jen, mentions on

this menu before I speak with
the like beverage director, for

example, Right.
I want to see if there are any

other modifiers on this menu
that go well with my spirit to

know if it would be a good fit,
right.

So there are different ways that
they would go about.

Analyzing the menu to figure out
if that restaurant or that bar,

that steakhouse, whatever it is
would be a good fit for their

brands.
And actually like there is a

tendency you know some bars are
are actually happy to to mention

brands on the menu.
You know they may use it or to

elevate the experience of the
guests is like I'm not I'm

actually mentioning which Gene,
which vermouth, which bitter is

actually going to the Negroni to
that example.

But then some others don't, you
know, they they rather say Gene

Negroni sweet vermouth or
whatever red vermouth.

What's your experience on that?
Can you say something about who

does or who doesn't?
Is it like a premium nest,

mainstream kind of level of
things depending on which is

which, or does it vary?
Yeah.

It definitely varies depending
on like what kind of product

you're trying to sell and like
what kind of accounts you're

trying to get into.
And not only would you be

looking at the menu, but you
also want to take a look at

their back bar too, to see what
they have on the back bar and

also what are they serving in
the well, Like that's also

important to take into account.
And even if they don't have a

brand specifically mentioned on
the menu, maybe they have

branding on the bar, so maybe
they have bar mats or branded

bar tools for a specific brand.
So that can also give you an

idea.
Idea of who their like main

supplier is and that will give
you a good pulse and what's

what's happening in that
account.

I love, I love that.
I love that that's what that's

one of my actually let's say I
don't want to go to like one of

my favorite pastime but it's
almost is But when I enter a bar

and I try to check the back bar
and try to figure out who are

they working with.
You know, do they work with a

specific wholesaler or do you
work with actually like a

leading company?
You know, do they have a wall of

a certain brand?
And then you see, OK, what's the

next one and then what's the
other one?

And then sometimes, like, you
know, you almost get there and

then it's like I think it's
Bacardi.

And then, you know, you, you
start seeing brands that don't

make any sense for Bacardi.
And then it's actually, you

know, it could be whatever brown
Foreman.

And then it's like actually it's
not brown for.

And then you start to figure
out, but it's interesting

because then you can ask
educated questions to the

bartender.
No.

To understand, OK, how do you
make your selection?

It looks like you're working
with these guys, what you do and

how how you go about it, right?
Correct.

And not to like toot our own
horn or anything, but the beauty

of like the overproof app is
that you would be able to take a

photo of the menu and get a real
time menu analysis done for you

on the phone that will show you
who the top suppliers are on

that menu.
The beverage program breakdown

in terms of cocktails, single
spirits modifiers and of course

all the brands that are
mentioned on that menu broken

down by percentage.
So you actually get all of.

That data right there, When you
walk into that account, you just

take a photo of the menu and you
can also take note of any

branding that you see on the
back bar too.

Wow okay.
So this is like me at 100%.

Basically we took your brain and
we put it into our software.

I love that.
I love that.

And how does this work?
I saw some articles from

Overproof on LinkedIn some time
ago and I was very interested in

getting your view on how city
strategies differ from each

other, right?
Because you may pick different

routes.
And I remember when we had our

meeting like a year ago, I can't
remember now, You could pick

some brands and fight against it
or escape from it, right.

And what is the most common
thing that that the brands do in

your experience?
Do they go and say like, I want

to be where Hendricks is or is
like I don't want to be where

Hendricks is?
I've seen a toss up honestly

it's it's a bit of both.
So some of our brands that we

work with are more competitive
than others and some of the

smaller brands might want to go
into accounts where there's not

a huge competitor already there
because they're trying to go

away from like the bigger fish
in the pond.

So it really depends on the
brand.

It goes down to that level and
you mentioned how things.

Might vary across different
cities.

I think a good example of that
would be the California market.

So I'll just take LA versus San
Francisco as an example.

And the top three cocktails on
those menus are very different.

So in San Francisco, I'm gonna
pull up the data right here and

mention.
The top three for the San

Francisco market, we have the
Margarita which is leading, then

the Martini and then the
Negroni.

But then in the LA market you
have the Margarita leading

followed by the Old Fashioned
and the Martini.

So the Negroni is not even
popular in Los Angeles where as

it is the second most popular in
San Francisco.

Now in the LA market, Negroni
isn't even in the top 10.

So that kind of gives you an
idea of how different it is

based on city, even though
they're in the same state.

That's crazy.
I would never think that I would

assume that there is some, you
know, there's more consistency

at city level, right?
There is more consistency in

other states.
So for example, in the Florida

market, Miami and the overall
Florida market are pretty

similar.
However, California is very

different and depending on, you
know, Northern versus Southern

California and it really comes
down to the different cultures

and the different traditions,
the different types of people

that are living in those areas.
You know that's true.

That's right.
And this is one of the things

that it's always fascinating for
me because I'm, I'm a big

history lover.
Like my, my listeners know that

and I like to always take one
category and and take the

historical aspects of it now
because there's always a

traditional occasion and a more
modern take on the occasion now.

So I always use the example like
it's a Hila brand starts in a

Mexican kind of like heritage
environments or Mexican

restaurants.
Like it's it starts originally

from there like in like an
Italian Amato or an Italian

aperitivo would be a typical
Italian kind of occasion,

consumption occasion.
And then they get elevated and

they become like a Fifth Avenue
or San Francisco, kind of like

Bay Area drink on a terrace on a
skyscraper, right.

But I feel that very often
brands kind of like neglect that

historical aspect because they
don't want to get too tied to

certain traditional occasion,
they want to premium eyes and

they say okay.
If I go back to the origins of

the brand, I may be much more
mainstream because obviously, I

mean if I go to an Italian
restaurant, for example, Amaro

in if you take Italy, I mean
sometimes they even put the

bottle on the on the table and
you know it's on the House kind

of thing.
So you don't want to be

perceived like that and you
won't automatically go into the

fancy cocktail thing.
But then, like listening to you,

you see how it's interconnected
and intermined into the culture

of each city, that you may go
for a certain cocktail or may

not go.
Correct.

And I think it is very important
to adapt to the local taste,

even if you wanna do it subtly.
Maybe there's a new cocktail

that you can create that
considers the local taste and

the local tradition, the local
culture, but you know, make A

twist on it that still honors
the tradition of your own brand

and maybe the premiumness of
your brand, for example.

Nice, nice, that's that's a
great point.

And how do you see the brands
you work with?

What take do they take on this?
So for example, if I say my

strategy, my target occasion is
being in the Negaroni all across

the country and then I come to
you and I speak to you and then

all of a sudden you give me this
data, then in La Negaroni is not

a thing.
What do brands do usually like

do they take the Okay, like I'm
going to be the first brand

pushing Negron in LA or do they
actually say no, let's scrap it,

you know, let's, let's focus on
San Francisco.

LA is a waste of time.
Yeah.

So it depends on the mindset of
the brand owner.

The ones that have like a more
bold take or a more bold

approach on things, they will go
for that method of going into a

different type of cocktail or
even a different market.

But if they want to stick with
the Negroni, we might recommend,

hey, like Negronis are more
popular in in the San Francisco

market.
So maybe you should spend your

efforts in that market as
opposed to another one where

there is no popular Negronis,
right, so.

It depends on the brand owner
and really what their approach

is.
And how do you say, I don't know

if you have that data at hand,
but how does it different

between if you take for example,
New York versus LA and San

Francisco, is New York in your
experience more similar to LA or

more similar to San Francisco,
totally different?

It's a third kind of like.
Way I personally.

Have not compared New York to
San Francisco, so I don't know.

I would be able to like look up
that data in our market analysis

dashboard and share it with you
after.

Off the top of my head, I don't
know.

That's nice.
We can leave it as an additional

LinkedIn.
When we'll post the episode,

we'll leave a little bit of it
easier for our listeners because

that's it's always fascinating
for me how you know, like what

is what's now like in terms of
occasions.

And because at some point like
it does it happen to you that

it's even like at kind of like
neighborhood level it changes

like I don't know, Brooklyn
versus Manhattan or.

Yes.
So yeah, even within the five, I

think it's 5 boroughs in New
York, there is differences in

the cocktails.
And like with the overproof

database, not only do you see
like the main cocktail family,

you can even see like, the
cocktail variations.

So for example, within like the
Martini family, you might have

an espresso martini, you might
have a porn star martini, a

dirty martini, right.
There's all kinds of different

variations that you can see
where the differences lie

between the different cities,
the different regions.

That's crazy.
The level of data that you can,

that you can find.
And I mean, I'm a big fan of,

you know, the term like niching
down and really like going into

detail because especially like
on craft brands, but also I mean

on big brands now they all fight
each other.

And there is such a
proliferation of brands all

across the world that you have
to be known for something

because otherwise you cannot be
a jackable trade because it's

just going to be another gene
brand, another tequila brand.

So you have to differentiate on
taste, liquid profile

proposition, pricing so on.
And I think this thing that I'm

hearing from you, it's a great
way to actually segment it and

really go, OK, this is the best
whatever vodka for espresso

martini, you know to that
extreme enable the conversation

kind of thing.
And it doesn't mean that you

cannot sell it other outside the
espresso martini, but you have

something to talk about.
It's like a foot in the door

conversation and correct.
Do you feel that they do that

brands go in that level of depth
or they stop much earlier?

Yes, and I'm gonna give you the
perfect example.

So the brand that I was speaking
with this morning, actually,

they have this Earl Grey vodka,
absolutely delicious and it goes

well in espresso martinis.
Ironically, right.

That's like their target
cocktail for, for that

particular vodka product, right.
And so they are going into

accounts that have espresso
martinis and they're interested

in speaking with them and
regarding putting their their

vodka, their Earl Grey vodka
into the espresso martinis and

that just happens to work really
well for that one product.

So they went in today to an
account.

They had them make an espresso
martini with it and they

absolutely loved it.
So like and you can get down in

the overproof software to that
level, to the espresso martini

level and also to the zip code
level.

So if you wanna create like an
account set of places, venues

that have espresso martinis in a
certain neighborhood, you can do

that.
Wow that's crazy.

And I'm I'm also big geography
fan since I was a child that was

going around with the Atlas and
around the flat, you know like

drawing maps and stuff like
that.

So I would go crazy on overproof
I think.

And how do you see who is
actually the user of overproof?

More like is it more big brands,
more brands or or add them more

like brands or actual
distributors.

Is it the brand that want to
drive the conversation with the

distributor?
Or is it the distributor that

actually want to have to ease
their life and really know where

to send their sales team and
focus?

Right.
So right now, the brand owners

are using Overproof and they're
using that to create their

strategy on where to go and
obviously where to send their

distributor reps if that's who
they're working with.

Some of them have their own
independent reps that they're

using the Overproof app in the
field.

Now we have gotten interest from
distributors recently, so we're

starting having those
conversations with the

distributors.
But as of now, we're primarily

working with the brand owners.
In your experience, how do

brands go from from one bottle
to 1 case.

So I'm basically lining up the
pathway of a brand in the

market, like from from 0 to the
first bottle, from the first

bottle to the first case and
then from the first case, the

first pallet kind of thing like
just to line up the journey,

right.
And how do you see brands are

actually going from one bottle
to 1 case in a bar?

Yeah, that's a great question.
So I would say the main driver

is relationships and making sure
that your brand ambassadors,

your brand reps are out there
building relationships with

those accounts and not just
focusing on that first case

being sold.
You wanna continue that your?

Making sure that you're going
back into that account, even

going and buying their cocktail,
having a drink with the bar

manager for example, and doing
things like bartender sampling

staff training is making sure
that the whole staff knows about

your product and has been
trained on how to sell your

product.
So really having that engagement

and going back into the accounts
to make sure that cases continue

to be sold.
Now a great feature that we have

in our app that helps you keep
track of this.

You can pull in your sales data
to make sure that you have your

like last reported sales date,
right.

But then in the overproof app,
if you have a certain account

that has gone unsold for a
specific amount of time, so

let's say 30 days, it hasn't
been sold into.

Then you are notified in the
app, the account turns red, and

you'll know that you have to go
back for your account visit to

make sure that they're
continuing to order your product

and to get another commitment
from them so you're able to keep

tabs on all of that.
So really it's a matter of

building relationships and
making sure that you're staying

on top of hosting activities
with the team, like staff

trainings, samplings and going
back for your account visits.

That's a great way because it's
the connection between the human

aspects and the human network
connection relationships and the

system, right.
Because because many people like

I've been with a lot of
salespeople that are great at

relationship, but they are
totally disconnected.

If you can enable those kind of
people that have great at

relationship with the system
then that becomes the ultimate

weapon because that's that's
really like how you made it

there, let's say the ultimate
selling machine that's when

extreme.
Correct.

Yeah.
Our, our goal, really sorry to

interrupt you, but our goal is
just to empower, empower the

reps, empower the brand
ambassadors.

So that way they are able to
schedule their own activities

for themselves and have a record
keeping of all the tasks that

they need to do in order to
complete that activity

successfully.
So they don't forget to do

things and just to make sure
that they are continuing the

relationship with that account,
right.

That's another great point
because sometimes the CRM system

or tools in general like that
perceived as a control mechanism

rather than an enablement.
If it really works and it's

really had customer centric in
the experience, then people

really say okay actually this is
making my life easier.

It's not enough mean setup and
how do you see like in brands

are let's say like there is a
tendency for brands to try to

own a place.
Obviously it goes with different

legal aspects on where it's
possible to do that.

But it's more like their wish is
to say I want this bar to work

with me, you know, work with the
full portfolio and they try to

block the competition
considering like we are within

the legit situation.
Do you see a trend in which is

like bars want to be much more
independent?

Or actually ultimately when you
analyze data from bars you

actually see that they mainly
work with certain players only?

No, we've kind of seen both and
it really depends on the

account.
So we have obviously a lot of

bigger suppliers in our database
that have brands and a ton of

menu mentions with those brands.
But then we also have really

small brands that we see in like
independent accounts or even

sometimes the smaller brands
might be in like a regional

chain for example, right?
And they have lots of menu

mentions too.
So to take over like one

account, obviously it's going to
take a lot of time invested by

you, by your reps.
I don't think it's impossible

right now.
Obviously, there's more

saturation in the market, so
you're kind of gonna have to be

sharing it with other brands,
right.

So it's a little bit harder
nowadays than it used to be.

And then of course, I mean it
differs from state to state and

from country to country.
But when working with big

companies, there is always this
Holy Grail that, you know, I, I

call it the Magic Trionna, the
the, the back bar, beverage

menu, cocktail menu kind of
thing.

And everybody are bringing their
teams to work on that.

You know, like I want you to be
in the back bar visible, I want

you to be in the menu, I want
you to be one of the cocktails,

it must be with our brands and
so on, which becomes a bit of a

kind of like a 0 sum game now
because every company actually

work with that, so it basically
creates a new starting point

rather than an enablement
sometimes.

What What do you think?
In your experience?

Is the actual thing that moves
bottles better from reading the

data or people tell you?
How does it really work in your

experience?
Where do consumer get

inspiration?
Is it the back bar?

Is it the menu?
What drives it?

Yeah, so definitely.
It's a lot easier to get your

beverage, your product in the
back bar or on the beverage

menu.
But really, what it comes down

to, if you're trying to really
showcase your brand's

versatility and your brand's
creativity, you're definitely

gonna wanna get on that cocktail
menu that is super important to

influencing.
The consumer's mind because they

see that your brand is in a
specific cocktail that sounds

very unique and they wanna try
that and that's gonna influence

maybe their decision to purchase
your product then in a retail

location in a grocery store,
liquor store in the future.

So it's definitely important for
that brand awareness, generating

that awareness in your
consumer's mind for sure.

Wow.
Do you see brands focusing more

like on bean serve meat or in
cocktails?

Because usually like from my
experience, I mean mainly when

you are in the beverage menu you
are more of a meat kind of

serve, while then of course you
found the cocktail, I mean

you're you're served in
cocktails and and there is a

tendency depends on the market,
on different markets that I work

with.
If you take Czech Republic as an

example, in Prague there's no
such thing as a gin and tonic.

With a brand very often there is
like a list of gin and then

there is a list of tonics and
then basically you need to

combine the two prices.
So the you know just in a few

places that are really pushing
the gin and tonic.

For example you would find gin
and tonic and with XYZ brand.

But so they almost treated as a
whiskey almost like if you would

buy neat but then who who's
buying a neat gin?

No one so.
So sometimes like I I feel like

you know, the beverage menu is
mainly for more like meat kind

of products and the cocktail
menu of course.

And do you see the strategy the
brands that you work with have?

Are there more onto one of the
two or do they try to be both,

or how do they work usually?
Yeah, that's really dependent on

the type of product and their
strategy.

So for example, you know, a lot
of whiskeys might prefer to be

on the beverage menu because
they prefer to be sift meat.

However, there are some that are
really good in certain types of

cocktails and you know, this
applies even to rum too.

Rum can either be, you know, sip
meat or in cocktails.

And I was just speaking with the
rum brand the other day, where

his strategy was a mixture of
both because his rum has a blood

orange and Madagascar vanilla
notes.

So he goes really well in an Old
Fashioned.

So Old Fashioned is part of his
cocktail strategy.

I think he even mentioned
Manhattan is part of his

cocktail strategy.
But he also said he's interested

in getting on beverage menus cuz
he wants people to be able to

enjoy it neat as well.
So it depends really on the type

of product and their preference
of how they wanna sell it.

And how do you see is it more of
a relationship kind of game or

what are the tools to actually
get listed on the cocktail menu?

Because usually I would assume
you know the average bar has

got, I don't know 10 cocktails
on the menu.

I mean I would say not more than
than that's a list.

So it's quite a challenge.
I mean the beverage menu is

usually bigger and you know I
use, I usually use the 5030 ten

like numbers now 50 on the back
bar, 30 on the beverage menu, 10

on the cocktail menu.
So how how do you see brands

ultimately get on the, you know,
the last monster, which is the

cocktail menu?
Like I want the video game.

Right.
So a good way to do that is when

you go in to sell your product,
have them make a specific

cocktail with your product and
have them taste it.

And if they realize how
incredible it is with your

spirit in it or whatever product
you're selling, that's a good

way for them to think about, OK,
maybe I can add this.

Cocktail to my menu in the
future cuz it tasted amazing.

Another way to go about it is
host some staff trainings where

you're teaching the staff at
that bar, that restaurant about

different cocktails that go
really well with your product.

So it's a matter of educating
the account on how you want your

product to be served and then
hopefully if they realize how

good it is then they will
organically add it onto the

menu.
Wow that's a nice way of putting

it.
If we take another channel which

is the off trade channel, now
like I'm a I'm a big fan of the

on trade and building brands
bottom up from the on trade

points of view.
But in especially in some of the

states in the US the the you
know the independent retail like

you know wine shops, bottle
shops, they play quite an

important role, right.
So it's I mean I remember for

example like New York versus
Miami, you know in New York it's

much more of an independent.
So they I like to see them

almost as an extension of the
bar, the way of working.

It's almost on trade because
they are independence.

There is an owner that probably
is is there at the at the shop

that there is like some
storytelling happening, you know

it's not just like a supermarket
aisle.

And So what is your take like
first of all, do people do a lot

of off trade as well in the you
know brand owners or or what's

your take on that?
Yeah, definitely.

Off trade is super important and
a lot of people tend to start

with on premise and then work
their way into off premise, but

still equally as important.
And it's very crucial to get

data from your off premise
sampling events too, to

understand really who your
target demographic is, because

that's a great way to find out
who it is, right?

If you're doing a sampling event
in a liquor store or any kind of

retail store, you would be able
to identify who is sampling your

product in terms of their gender
appearance.

Against their age range and then
get feedback from them in terms

of are they liking your product,
are they disliking it?

Are they more neutral?
And then of course ultimately do

they end up purchasing your
product.

And this would allow you to not
only identify your target

consumer, but also understand
your ideal location too, because

maybe there's a specific type of
off trade location that works

well for your brand.
Maybe it is convenience stores,

maybe it is liquor stores, maybe
it's grocery stores.

And once you get all that data
aggregated, and by the way,

you're able to do all of this
within the overproof tastings,

portal and Tastings app as well,
basically automates the whole

process for you.
But once you're able to get an

aggregate view of all of that
data, then you can start making

smarter decisions about which
type of off premise locations to

put your product in.
And also you know, who your

demographic is, who your target
consumer is.

Wow, that's very interesting.
There's something that come into

play there.
It's almost like a neighborhood

kind of level.
You know, I remember like

working with with some brands in
the US when we analyzed the data

together that there was a
specific neighborhood in in New

York where the brand was
resonating.

And sometimes, you know,
sometimes it's kind of like

driven by the fact that most of
the people in the team live

around there or hang around
there and so on so that you can

see, you know, more rotation,
you know, their friends hang

around there.
But what I like is, is to really

take on a city neighborhood by
neighborhoods because otherwise

you're just like playing like a
drop in drops in the ocean now.

And you have got a bar in Upper
East Side and then a bar in West

Village and a bar in Saw.
And basically, you know, like

people are not going to travel
to find your brand.

But what you're saying is that
the off trade can play a role, a

complementary role because then
you may be 5 bars in Soho and

then you could be in 10 liquor
stores in Soho.

Again because you assume that
especially neighborhoods where

you actually live and go out,
you know, not all neighborhoods

at the same, I mean like there
are some neighborhoods, they are

more like, I don't know,
financial district or whatever,

you know that people don't live
there.

But if you take that example,
then it would be great to to

actually compliment that because
then it's like okay.

I actually go out and you know,
I drink this brand when I go out

to a restaurant, but actually
this week I'm not going to going

out.
So I I buy a bottle and then I

just make a drink at home.
Yeah, and I can give you a

personal example of that.
I've been one of those consumers

where I have seen a cocktail on
a cocktail menu, ordered it, and

this was years ago, I believe it
was 4 Roses Bourbon in that

cocktail and I loved it.
And so I decided to recreate it

at home.
And of course I went out to the

liquor store and I bought a
bottle of Four Roses Bourbon and

I made that cocktail.
I recreated it at home because I

liked it so much when I had it
in an on premise account.

And I think a lot of people are
starting to do that now, more so

after COVID, because a lot of
people have realized that it's a

little bit cheaper, more cost
effective to make your own

cocktails at home.
And a lot of people took up that

hobby during the pandemic.
So we're seeing a lot more of

that within the recent years,
absolutely.

I mean that's a great example
and I'm a big fan of building a

trade event or a launch event or
consumer events kind of thing

because very often I feel brands
do an event and they haven't

built distribution yet.
So they may do an event in a

whatever like a fancy rooftop,
but they're not listed in that

place now.
So imagine you and I go there

and then we like the drink and
it's like okay next Saturday

let's go there like for a drink
because we love that brand and

we asked for the brand and the
brand doesn't, doesn't exist

there because it's not actually
listed.

So you create, you know, if you
do it in a nice way, then you

actually make sure that, you
know, imagine that if you, if

you went to buy the Four Roses
bottle and you didn't find it

all around the block, then it
would be like okay, you know,

lost chance.
You know, like maybe I would

remember in three months time
when I'm in another part of the

city and I bump into that
bottle.

But you know, like that way was
a great example in in saying,

OK, actually there is a cocktail
there and then I make sure that

that I'm kind of like navigating
the own trade outlet.

And that actually could be a
thinking about it could be a

nice selling story to the to the
bottle shop owner because it's

like this brand is in five
cocktail menus all around your

shop.
You know, there's a lot of

people that live here, target
all those people that actually

drink it and want to have it its
own, and that you've nailed the

selling story in a very nice and
compelling kind of way.

Yeah, exactly.
That's exactly what I'm trying

to say.
And the same thing could work

too.
If you're just launching your

product and you don't even have
a distributor yet, you might be

able to do that same tactic with
the on premise accounts, right?

So you can go into like 10 on
premise accounts and be like,

hey, here's my product and you
get interest from them, okay.

Then you go to your distributor
or potential distributor and be

like, hey.
Actually have 10 accounts that

want my product already and then
that's how you can get a foot in

with a distributor for the first
time if you're just launching.

Absolutely, because otherwise
there's no chance that the

distributor's gonna pick up the
phone and listen to you.

And this is like the old thing
about the building bottom up

kind of approach that obviously
you will go to a distributor to

ship out the product.
But in reality the brand is

actually built bottom up.
Because if you don't create the

demand before, you know, it's a
totally different story to go

there and say hey, there's 20
people that are actually

interested.
They cannot get it yet because

of you know like legality, but
you know like or or maybe you

know, I'm just going with
another distributor, whatever I

want to change distributor and
so on.

But you go there with the
package of clients that maybe

they don't have or they have
with a lower margin kind of

product.
So it's a totally different

situation.
And also what's interesting what

you were saying that sometimes
as a brand owner you don't know

exactly who your target consumer
is and there's nothing wrong

with that.
But then you can do in a bottom

up way, you can do some
experiments and go to 5 bars,

heavy tested, because a lot of
people may get lost into this

target occasion and target
cocktail discussion now and say

hang on, I have no clue, you
know what I can do with my

vodka.
Like, I don't know if it's

espresso martini or if it's like
a shot or whatever.

You know, I have no idea if it's
a vodka and soda.

So how do I know now?
And, you know, just like, let

bartenders taste the brand, play
around, as you said, with it on

a cocktail and then you will see
what works best.

And then all of a sudden you
will become the whatever

espresso martini kind of brand.
Not because you made it up in an

advertising agency, but you know
because you know 5 or 10

bartenders actually showed you
that by doing that the brand is

actually rotating.
So there's there is this circle

in which you have to go at the
beginning because you have to do

something out of your comfort
zone in developing the brands

without having a clue.
And or maybe you can say, I'm

pretty sure that this brand goes
well with this and this and this

and then you try to roll it out
and basically doesn't stick.

And then they say actually we
don't use it in this cocktail.

We use in this cocktail or.
As you said, it's not actually a

sipping thing.
We prefer it in cocktails.

I'm very pro, not dictating what
the brand should be used for.

What's your experience on that?
When brands go there with their

own drinking strategy, as it
happened, that they've actually

changed their targets to you.
That the brand has changed their

target based on what the yeah,
the brand has changed.

That would go like we are the
typical Negroni brand and then

all of a sudden they just
switched into whatever other

cocktail and you know, and then
they said we actually realized

that was not the right thing to
do.

Yeah, yeah.
And a lot of brand owners are

receptive to that feedback.
Obviously the ones that are are

savvy enough to know that this
is a possible way to create a

new demand because look my my
spirit is this versatile where

it not only does it work in the
cocktail that I suggested, but

now I'd also, I've realized,
works in the one that the

bartender has suggested as well.
So it really shows your spirits

versatility in that sense,
right.

And I think a lot of brand
owners are open and receptive to

changing their strategy based on
something that a bar owner or a

bartender might suggest, right?
And how do you see the

difference between working with
big and small brands?

Do they have a different
approach to this topic or it's

more like personal?
It's more like the type of

person you work with?
Yeah.

So there's a big difference
between the bigger brands and

the smaller brands.
The bigger brands come to us

with more interest in receiving
data on a macro level like

across like the United States
market for example, to know how

their cocktails are currently
performing in terms of like menu

mentions and on premise
accounts.

So they kind of want to know how
they're doing currently.

Whereas like these smaller
brands come to us with more a

need for strategic accounts that
creation, right.

So they're not exactly sure
where to put their product, so.

They come to us for those target
account sets because they're not

sure.
And then the medium sized

brands, there's also like a
middle ground too, where they

are coming to us for the purpose
of being able to kind of get a

pulse on what's happening with
their reps out in the field

because.
They just don't have a system

for tracking anything or for
reporting or goal setting.

So they the ones that have
multiple reps on the field, you

know they might have 1015 reps,
they kind of need like a CRM

type of system to keep track of
things and for sales reporting

purposes, right.
So it does vary depending on the

size of the brand, Okay, Okay
and for the known US listeners

like this, of course they know
it in theory that then they

don't realize exactly how that
works in the in Europe or other

parts of the world.
But I mean distributors are

playing a huge role because a
brand is basically going into a

mark, into an outlet only
through a through a distributor.

And that distributor is
basically the exclusive

distributor for that particular
brand, which is very different

for example, in Europe.
Because when you when you take a

wholesaler in say Prague as an
example, you know, I may sell

brands with three, 4-5 different
wholesalers and they all sell to

the same outlets.
So that outlets can actually say

I want to buy your gin through
these guys because this is where

I also buy the wine or the beer
or whatever, No.

So it creates a lot of
competition within that.

While in the USI mean like the
distributor plays a bigger role

in terms of being the face of
the brand because that's the

only one who can approach that.
But who owns the relationship

with the account?
I mean legally of course is the

distributor, but is there like a
like a double kind of like

interaction there is the sales
Rep from the from the

distributor and then the brand
ambassador or do brands leave it

more on just okay distributors,
you do the game, it's your role

like I'm just being in the
headquarter kind of thing.

What's your experience on this
topic?

Yeah.
And for smaller brands, I've

seen it be where they don't have
their own reps yet and they're

solely relying on.
Distributor reps to do sales for

their brand.
Obviously this can sometimes

hurt the brand in the long term
because the distributor is

working with lots of brands and
they might not prioritize your

small brand, especially the
bigger distributors.

And I was just talking to a
woman based in California, where

she was working with a large
distributor for about a year.

And they weren't getting
anything sold because the

distributor reps were focused on
selling the larger products in

their portfolio, right.
So their brand wasn't given any

attention.
But then when they switched over

to a very small distributor,
they started to see sales

because the distributor reps
were paying more attention to

their brand, right.
So it depends on which

distributor you're working with.
Obviously it depends on the size

of your brand.
Based on how you go about that,

now if you have your own reps
and you're going into the field

with your own reps, then you can
actually, you know, use

something like the Overproof app
to send commitments straight to

your distributor reps from your
phone.

So as soon as you get that
commitment, you can send it to

your distributor Rep and then
they place that order and then

that order obviously would get
fulfilled hopefully.

So it works in tandem.
If you have your own sales reps,

you'd be able to work with the
distributor reps through your

sales reps as well.
Nice, nice.

And it makes a totally different
approach because I mean,

ultimately you want to be
emotionally, strategically,

financially relevant to to the
distributor and to the bar.

And and sometimes for, you know,
for a big player, you're not

either of of those because
you're just like a small player

and you know, they may take you
on for whatever reason like

through relationships or
whatever that is, but then

there's no throughput
whatsoever.

So sometimes like it's also
about managing expectation of

the pace at which a brand is
built, you know, and I always

say, you know, be careful what
you wish for kind of thing

because also like sometimes like
you may even not be able to

fulfill that order because you
know, like if you go with the

two big distributor, you're
basically signed a deal with the

devil.
It's so big that basically you

go bust because just from cash
flow perspective, you cannot

produce as much as you can sell,
which is, you know, a nice

product with a nice problem to
have if you've got cash, you

know, you can grow fast.
But sometimes, like people don't

realize that.
They say, oh, I got a great

deal.
You know, like we can scale all

across California, but do you
want that now?

Are you sure about it?
And you know I've seen many

brands having serious, serious
problems and then it becomes

like a situation where you
cannot fulfill the orders and

and and and so on.
And so the very last question,

the US is of course like state
by state kind of game, but do

they go actually city by city or
do they say okay, I'm going to

launch in Florida and you know
I'm going to launch everywhere

like you know Miami and Tampa
and and whatever like you know

like do they go flat across the
the states or do they try to go

bit by bit?
Yeah.

So we'll have a lot of brands
come to us and say Okay, I'm

launching in Florida, but they
usually have at least three

cities within the state that
they're trying to target.

So for example, in Florida they
would say Okay, I want to target

Orlando, Tampa and Miami or Fort
Lauderdale, the Keys and

Jacksonville.
You know whatever it is, they'll

usually have at least two or
three cities that they are

trying to hone in on.
I wouldn't say a lot of our.

France come to us trying to
blanket a whole state all at

once.
Okay, do you see they go, they

really go and take on the
monster, you know, like they go

and let's let's take Miami or do
they actually have this, you

know, this example that you made
like this like more of an

underdog city that where they
will find less competition and

so on.
Because of course, I mean you

want to win in Miami if you're
launching in in Florida, let's

be honest, but you may not have
the resources to do that.

So how what's your experience on
on that one?

This is also going to be based
on what kind of product you're

selling.
So for example, we've worked

with the rum brand in the past
where they do really well in

like coastal like fishermen type
of towns, right, just based on

the nature of their rum and
their branding and how they've

positioned themselves in the
market.

So their strategy was like the
keys, their strategy was like

Naples, Tampa, like those areas
where there is more like

coastal, like fishermen.
And types of towns.

So really it depends on what
kind of product you're trying to

sell and catering to the
demographic in certain cities,

that's super interesting.
It's crazy when you deep dive

into a specific geographical
area or specific brand how

things change in a in a totally
different way and you're going

to make the most out of it.
So fantastic.

So thanks, thanks a lot for your
knowledge and wisdom.

Like I think there's a, there's
a lot of stuff that I also want

to really listen to it to really
take notes about what you said

and I want to give you some
space to you know to tell our

listeners where they can find
you.

You know you first firstly you
as a person and then obviously

no over proof and how to reach
out to you.

Yeah, definitely.
So for myself, you can find me

on LinkedIn, my profile is my
name, Krista Schubert Schubert

and my e-mail is
[e-mail].

And if you want to learn more
about overproof, you can just go

to overproof.com and you'll find
everything you need to know.

Fantastic.
So thanks a lot for your time,

Krista, and have a nice rest of
the day.

Thanks, Chris.
It was a pleasure speaking with

you.
Take care.

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