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Zero Click Marketing is a marketing strategy podcast about content marketing, audience research, and how brands grow when clicks matter less. Hosted by Amanda Natividad, Chief Evangelist at SparkToro, the show explores how marketers reach audiences, build influence, and earn attention in a zero-click internet. New to the show? Start with Episode 2: What Zero Click Marketing Actually Is.
[00:00:00] Talia Wolf: I would argue that a B2B purchase is actually more emotional than a B2C when you're buying software or you're buying anything for a business, there's so much risk. like you're worried about losing your job or making a joke of yourself, and there's just, there's a lot higher risk than there is when you're just buying something for yourself or your significant other.
[00:00:22] I'm Amanda Natividad and welcome to Zero Click Marketing.
[00:00:30] Amanda Natividad: Talia Wolf is a conversion optimization expert and founder of GetUplift, the optimization agency that brands like Amplitude, Bitly, and Strata turn to when they wanna drive more sales, leads, conversions with a meaningful customer-first methodology. She is also the author of Emotional Targeting: When Hearts Boost Sales Own the Market, this beautiful book.
[00:00:55] I really loved it because it was just genuinely enjoyable to read. [00:01:00] Like, I mean, a lot of business books are very good, but I really like that this had personal stories. It had case studies, and it was just very digestible and very, like, I can easily pick this up for a chapter and then put it down, and then pick it back up, and then...
[00:01:16] It's also not very long, but I really love this book, and thank you for writing it.
[00:01:20] Talia Wolf: Thank you. I, um, listened to April Dunford's, uh, recommendation, which was write a book someone could read on a flight. So I did. I was like, "I want it to be short and to the point." So thank you for
[00:01:34] Amanda Natividad: I love that advice of hers, too.
[00:01:36] so in your book Emotional Targeting, a lot of this covers, like, how to do marketing, right? Like, how to, how to do marketing that is compelling. And this was something that we talked about when I was on your show, that I was kind of having this light bulb moment of how similar and also different, so really just complementary, emotional targeting and zero-click marketing [00:02:00] are.
[00:02:00] And so what I'll say to our readers... Our readers. Our listeners here. So both emotional targeting and zero-click marketing reject the idea that marketing is just traffic, clicks, and conversions. So do you see these two as two versions of the same larger shift? I'm curious how you're thinking about emotional targeting in, like, today's changing marketing landscape.
[00:02:24] Talia Wolf: I think emotional targeting is more important than ever. And the idea behind emotional targeting is that the only way to actually get the business results that you need, be it leads or conversions or sales, whatever, um, is to make it about your customer's emotions. So understanding the real why behind the purchase, why they buy, why they come to you, their pains, their challenges, and solving it for them.
[00:02:52] And when you do that, you get... You know, you help your customers, and then you get the conversions that you want. And I [00:03:00] think that zero-click marketing is, is so exciting to me because finally people are catching up. So what I mean by that is zero-click marketing is this incredible playbook that sh- literally shows you, like, there is, you know, n- no attribution.
[00:03:21] It's gonna be really hard to measure things, and the only way to actually get the results that you want is to focus on your customer, to make it about them. And you talk a lot about, like, creating content everywhere and reaching your customers where they are, um, and actually knowing that you need to l- you need to live in borrowed land and your own, to use your words.
[00:03:48] And I think it's so complementary because if you listen to Zero Click Marketing and you follow that playbook, the way to implement it is with emotional targeting. So when you're on these platforms, when you're on Instagram, on [00:04:00] LinkedIn, on Reddit, when you are on podcasts or blogs or, I don't know, YouTube channels, you then use emotional targeting in order to connect with your audience and convert them.
[00:04:13] So I, I just find it like it is like the perfect kind of fit, if that makes
[00:04:17] Amanda Natividad: Yeah. It really is, yeah, because this is very much like, or even just if you're thinking about like how do I be more customer led or customer driven, emotional targeting is like, well, this is how you write it. This is how you design it. So maybe on that note, could you walk us through a couple of examples of like how you improved a client's copy or messaging or, you know, whatever the campaign was or whatever the program was, and how you made it like optimally emotionally targeted?
[00:04:47] Talia Wolf: Yeah. So the way it works is the process... Our framework is kind of divided into three steps. So the first step is research, and during that part we [00:05:00] want to uncover why, the real why, the real reason people buy. And we work with a lot of B2B companies, so those are usually the most interesting, uh, case studies, I would say.
[00:05:11] We also do like e-com, and we work with higher education, and we work with moving companies and HVAC, so a lot of different companies. But all those, I think, naturally sound emotional. So I love to talk about B2B companies because usually when I talk about emotional targeting, everyone's like, everyone's like, "Yes, of course.
[00:05:29] Like if I'm buying a watch, it's emotional, but if I'm buying accounting software, that's not." I would argue that a B2B purchase is actually more emotional than a B2C because when you're buying software or you're buying anything for a business, there's so much risk. like you're worried about losing your job or making a joke of yourself, and there's just, there's a lot higher risk than there is when you're just buying something for yourself or your significant other.
[00:05:59] Amanda Natividad: That's [00:06:00] true. Or in the case of like accounting software, right? Like maybe for the accountant at th- at that company, that software cost is the budget for the year. So it's also like they don't wanna screw that up. If th- they make the wrong purchase, not only is it their job on the line, it's also affects the whole department.
[00:06:18] Like that's a big deal.
[00:06:20] Talia Wolf: Imagine you were tasked with finding... switching to a new email marketing platform. So you've been using X, and now your job is to go and actually, switch that up 'cause it's no good. Now you have to start choosing this email marketing platform. But there's so many things that are involved in this decision because what if you choose a marketing, email marketing platform that no one likes, no one can use, everyone hates?
[00:06:47] What if when you do the transition, all the email addresses get deleted in a freak accident? Or, like, all your data is deleted? There's so many things, you're like, "What if people hate me [00:07:00] for making this choice?" and by the way, it works to the other side, right? Like, there's also, uh, when people buy products, we talk...
[00:07:07] I talk a lot about social image and self-image in the book too. So self-image is how do I wanna feel about myself, and social image is how do I want other people to feel and think about me. So when I'm buying something for, like, as a B2B purchase, I'm also like, I'm hoping that people will feel that I am the go-to person, that I'm an expert on this, that they can trust me.
[00:07:29] maybe I'll get a raise. So it works, it works to both ends. But there's a lot of risk. And so the first step that we need to identify is, is really do the research. The research helps us uncover the real why because most brands focus on pricing, features, technology. This is why people buy it, because we have AI, because we're an all-in-one platform for blah, blah, blah.
[00:07:53] so we do a lot of research, and then after that, we use our research to audit the website. [00:08:00] And most companies when they think about auditing a website, they think about doing like a heuristic analysis or looking at like best practices and GA4 and kind of going through the motions of like, okay, do I have two calls to action, um, and stuff like that.
[00:08:17] What we do is we audit the website from the customer's lens and we ask ourselves questions like, this about the customer? Are you using stories that resonate? Is, does the social proof actually dismantle their concerns? Are you showing the value they really care about? Are you using the words that they connect with and resonate with?
[00:08:37] So when w- now that we're actually empowered and we have all these insights, we can finally understand what's not working because for most companies, they're pouring everything they can into their marketing and they just don't get why it's not clicking and why it's not working. Like you know you have a great product, but why can't anyone else see it?
[00:08:56] So when you do research first and then you [00:09:00] audit your website, it's so much easier to see why people aren't converting, what's not resonating strategically. And that's the, the missing piece. And then after that we start AB testing. So we'll run AB tests, um, on messaging, entire pages, entire funnels, email marketing, um, to do that.
[00:09:19] In the first step when we, when we do the research, are you referring to customer research and-- or what, what kind of research are you referring to?
[00:09:27] Yes. So we do a lot of different research. It's mostly qualitative research, uh, meaning we're doing social listening, which means being a fly on the wall on Reddit. So combing through conversations on Reddit, LinkedIn, Facebook groups, Quora, Discord, YouTube threads where people are kind of commenting. Um, so we are scouring the web for conversations about the ind- our client's industry, the c- our client's product, the competitors, to understand the [00:10:00] sentiment.
[00:10:00] And then we're also doing things like review mining, so re- basically mining thousands of reviews. Uh, we are doing interviews, customer surveys. We're doing a competitor analysis. So we're looking at everything to really try and get into the emotions of customers and understand from the people who should be buying from you, what are they saying?
[00:10:24] What are they worried about? What's keeping them up at night? Uh, why do they choose your competitor over you? And so on. So that's kind of the research we're doing. Plus, of course, quantitative, but the, the quantitative data analysis is more about what needs optimizing, 'cause quantitative tells you the what, okay?
[00:10:41] It's the product page, it's the homepage, it's their email marketing. Qualitative tells you why things aren't working and not connecting.
[00:10:48] Amanda Natividad: Cool. That is super comprehensive. Thanks. So we're at-- So we do, we focus on that research, then we audit the website, and then we get into AB testing.
[00:10:57] Talia Wolf: Yes. Um, [00:11:00] examples. So, when we worked with a, project management solution, one of the things that we no- noticed for Teamwork.com is that they specifically target client-facing teams. So o- obviously everyone knows, like, the project management, uh, industry is saturated. There are many PM tools.
[00:11:22] You've got Asana, you've got Monday, you've got ClickUp, you've got Trello, you've got- So many options. and essentially teamwork.com, is a wonderful product, and you can use it just as well as you could use ClickUp or monday.com, for example. But if you are a client-facing team, meaning you're an agency, a creative team, you work with clients, teamwork.com was actually built for teams like yours.
[00:11:52] And then when we understood this, we started doing the research. Okay, are we actually speaking the language of client-facing [00:12:00] teams or not? and we started optimizing everything for them, so their homepage, their comparison pages, even the menu on the website, the entire navigation of the website was changed.
[00:12:12] Uh, for example, from our research, we understood that when people are trialing a PM tool, they're also usually trialing two other products at the same time. So instead of sending people to the web to look for Monday versus ClickUp, ClickUp versus Basecamp, Teamwork versus ClickUp, we essentially went out, wrote, uh, very comprehensive comparison pages that helped people really see the difference.
[00:12:41] Like, if you are doing all this work, Wrike or ClickUp are great for you, but if you wanna get clarity on one, two, three, and four, you have to use Teamwork. And what we did is we created this ve- these very long comparison pages, and then we added them in the menu, and we said, "Compare [00:13:00] us." So when you actually go to teamwork.com's website today, it literally says, "Compare us," because we know you're comparing, so why, why send them to an LLM?
[00:13:09] Why send them to Google to do it? Actually create the content for them. And by creating, uh, one of these pages generated 54% more free trials for teamwork.com, uh, from organic. Just that. And it was, it was so cool because the original comparison page basically just said, "Why is, um, teamwork.com better than Wrike?"
[00:13:33] And it's just like, "Here's a list of features." But we actually went in and said, "Look, here's what you're trying to get done as an agency owner. Here's what you care about, as a, a project manager. All of this stuff exists in teamwork.com." So we went into the value of stuff, and we explained the pricing and why it looks more expensive, but it isn't actually.
[00:13:53] So we actually created a 5,000-word comparison page, and it increased conversions by 54%. So i- [00:14:00] th- that's that's the example of, like, emotional targeting isn't really about just, like, fluffy headlines and like, "Oh, feel better as an agency leader," but it's- Very specific to understanding what the concerns are, what's keeping up an agency manager, like a CEO or a founder, up at night, not understanding profitability, not knowing if Patty's doing her work, knowing if you can take on a client or can't.
[00:14:25] When you know these things, you can create very specific content for them that solves a very specific problem for them that then increases conversions.
[00:14:34] Amanda Natividad: Oh my gosh, this is incredible. I'm, I'm actually... I pulled up the website while you were talking, because I had to see it for myself too. Um, and so, I mean, technically they call it Why Teamwork, but all of it's there. Yeah, but all of it's there. All those pages are there. I'm looking at the versusmonday.com one.
[00:14:51] It's super thorough. It has the checklist of like, here are the features we have versus what Monday has. It's exactly what you said it is. It's [00:15:00] incredible. And I really want to like pick apart everything I love about this, because first it's, you found out, like this is what customers or the audience, whatever, prospects, th- this is what they're doing.
[00:15:12] They are already comparing these tools, so why not give them the best possible comparison tool and own the traffic for it? You know? Like, it's sort of funny because we talk about like zero clicks, no clicks, don't be dependent on the click, and I still... I mean, yes, but also if you have something that is so good and so worth it and so comprehensive as a genuinely useful tool for your prospects, then you should own the traffic.
[00:15:41] Like, it should live on your website. Like, that's where it should go. I mean, and then sure you can, if you want to, I don't know, figure out a way to kind of distill some of this stuff into bite-sized pieces of content for social, sure, but that's a whole separate thing.
[00:15:56] Talia Wolf: Yes.
[00:15:57] Amanda Natividad: I love this. And then the other thing I want to say that [00:16:00] is great is you talk about how this is a really emotional decision, and then you unpacked what are the things that make it emotional, right?
[00:16:08] It's somebody worried about the business problems that keep them up at night, right? It's, "Am I gonna make the right choice? Am I gonna spend the budget wisely?" Whereas the sort of pejorative view of emotional, of being emotional, right, is like, "Oh, you're just worried," or, "You're just stressed out."
[00:16:25] But it's like, okay, you are worried, but why? What is the reason? And in this example, you fully unpacked it. Here are all the reasons that someone is anxious about this purchase, and you made it something that is useful and that people also have a reason to keep coming back to. Maybe when their contract is about to be up for renewal, they'll go back to this page and go like, "Yep, I'm gonna stick with Teamwork."
[00:16:48] Or, yeah.
[00:16:50] Talia Wolf: And also, I would say that We were very good at saying like, "If, if you don't need this, then absolutely choose the competitor." And I think that's really important in saying like, "We're very good at [00:17:00] doing this." And you can also, like you mentioned the comparison table, like the features. If you'll notice, we're not just saying, "Okay, there's board view, there's a Gantt view, there's a calendar view."
[00:17:09] We're explaining on the left-hand side, and this is probably now two years ago, uh, we're explaining what the value is of a board view or a reporting or profitability report, what that value is for an agency owner. Not just we have a profitability report, but like this means that you can now do X, Y, and Z.
[00:17:32] You will no longer worry if you can take on this or not. And I think what you just said is, is the key, right? Because a lot of companies, whether B2C or B2B say, "Save time." But what does save time actually mean for this particular person? For example, during COVID, we worked with an incredible platform called Wizer.
[00:17:56] And Wizer, basically has these very smart worksheets, [00:18:00] and it was used by teachers. So any teacher can go online and create an interactive worksheet for their students. And the original content was like, "Create beautiful work- uh, worksheets for your student- that your students would love." Fantastic. But when we did our research, we were like, look, these are overworked teachers who are trying to do things online for the first time in their lives as teachers, and they are missing out.
[00:18:27] Like, the biggest thing that kept coming is like they are missing out on their family. And we literally wrote, this isn't the exact copy because I can't remember now, but it was more like, "Win back time. Get to dinner with your family." Like literally the stuff that people were saying to us that they could win back their own specific time.
[00:18:46] And that's the, that's the, the specifics that you can only get when you talk to your customers. That's the specifics that you can only get when you really understand what saving time or saving money [00:19:00] means to your particular customer.
[00:19:02] Amanda Natividad: That is so good. And it's so tr- I mean, if you want to use the messaging of save time, it's okay, who is saving the time? What are, like who is that person, right? Well, what is their function in the company? What is their function in real life? Like, where do they save the time? What do they get back with that time?
[00:19:21] Like what are, what, what are those things? Like really go through that customer journey and figure out what that is so that you can market to them in a way that genuinely resonates. That's like blending in with the pain points they already have been expressing like to their colleagues and whatnot. I love that
[00:19:37] Talia Wolf: I wanted to add, which is few weeks ago we were talking to our client and they, they're in the B2B enterprise and they don't wanna show pricing?
[00:19:45] cause no one in their industry shows pricing.
[00:19:47] Like, no one in B2B enterprise shows pricing. So, uh, Claire on my team said to them, like, "We need a pricing page. We need to, uh, show the pricing, we need to talk [00:20:00] about it, and we need to be transparent about it." And they're like, "No one on the executive team's gonna allow this." And basically what she did, she did a share screen.
[00:20:08] She went into ChatGPT and she wrote, "What is this company's pricing and their competitors?" And up comes, you know, a table showing all the competitors, including our client, and their pricing. It's not even correct. And what she was saying is so smart. It's like you can no longer hide information. It's everywhere.
[00:20:30] So you can either own that narrative and talk about it and say, "Yes, we are more expensive," or, "We're not, but here's why we cost the way we cost. Here's what it would look like. Here's why you should get on a call with us to get a specific personalized quote." Or you can let someone else do it for you and tell the wrong story.
[00:20:48] So it kind of connects to me with, like, the comparison thing. Like, we know people are comparing, so just give it to them instead of them going somewhere else to do it.
[00:20:57] Amanda Natividad: Absolutely. you know, I've be- I've kind of been [00:21:00] beating this drum for a minute now of like, if you don't own the narrative of yourself, somebody else will.
[00:21:07] Talia Wolf: Yes.
[00:21:08] Amanda Natividad: You know? Like, that's just how it is. And especially more and more as, as more people are using tools like ChatGPT, for better or for worse, right?
[00:21:17] I mean, there's an argument you can make where it's good for users or for customers because now it's in their control of like how they want to seek out information, how they get the information. Cool. Good for, good for consumers, right? But at the same time, w- we, we as the ones who are selling to them, it's like, I mean, if you're ethical like we are, it's you want them to find the correct information, right?
[00:21:40] You want it to be accurate. You want it to help them make the decision that they need. Hopefully, you are the correct decision. But yeah. There's another thread I want to pull here that goes back to, um, what you were saying about the comparison pages and all the comparison content, and it's like something I want to get ahead of to any, any [00:22:00] person listening right now is like, yeah, but what th- what if, what if this?
[00:22:03] And it's, there are people listening who are probably thinking, "Yeah, but I want them to become my customer," right? Like, I want to make sure that these comparison pages or this comparison content, nudges people in the direction of my product, which makes sense However, the thing I want to say, and I want to hear what you have to say too, is like the thing I want to add to that is, yeah, you do want to make sure you are putting your best foot forward.
[00:22:31] Of course, obviously, who doesn't? However, if somebo- if a, if a prospect has different needs than you serve, then you don't want them as a customer.
[00:22:42] Talia Wolf: Yeah.
[00:22:46] Amanda Natividad: you know, just, yeah, certain features that you don't have because you serve a different segment, you don't want the wrong person.
[00:22:54] Because you don't want the person coming in, giving you money, regretting it, and then being pissed off that they bought your tool for [00:23:00] the for- foreseeable future, for the month or for the year, and they realize, "Oh, I want my money back, and this was terrible." Like, you don't want someone to feel that way. Or if they do, you want to, I think, you want to be able to rectify that quickly.
[00:23:14] but yeah, I'm curious, like, when... I'm sure you get that pushback all the time from executives you work with who are like, "Yeah, yeah, but, but, but we gotta be first."
[00:23:21] Talia Wolf: so here's the thing, like, there, there's two parts to the pushback. One is I don't want to create comparison pages because I don't want to get competitors in people's minds. And the second one is, how do I create a comparison page that convinces people to choose me? And I think it's, it's more of the same.
[00:23:37] So if you look at yourself and your competitors, and I'm sorry to say this, most companies, unless you are a unicorn, have the same features and the same technology and the same integrations and more or less the same pricing. And even if it's not the same right now, at some point someone will come in and create something that is similar or better.
[00:23:58] So if you are [00:24:00] constantly competing on the feature level, you have a problem. And to that I say, once someone has seen your features and your pricing and your integrations, and they're like, "Okay, yes, this is in my, this is in my pricing bracket. This fits what I need, and there's two other companies that I'm considering," what convinces them to give you a try versus someone else?
[00:24:25] And that's the emotional resonance. That's where emotional targeting comes in because if you don't actually appeal to your customers' emotions and you don't show them in your messaging that you understand their particular pain, you know what they've tried before and why it hasn't worked, you know what's keeping them up at night, if you don't show all of that, you're just kind of leaving them hanging to search for it somewhere else.
[00:24:51] So the way for you to create high-converting comparison pages is to make it about them, is to go the extra mile and say, [00:25:00] "Here's why I built a tool that's better than anything else out there." So they're gonna compare anyway, and at the end of the day, your role is to create a comparison page or any page, honestly, that when people arrive on it, they're like, "This company understands me, sees my pain, and knows exactly, and has built something that's for me.
[00:25:24] And I think that's, that's the difference. Because if you're just basing it on features and pricing, then of course you don't want to create a comparison page because you've got nothing to talk about.
[00:25:34] Amanda Natividad: what were some of the other KPIs you were looking at as you were building out these pages and as you implemented them?
[00:25:41] Talia Wolf: So for this test, we were looking at organic traffic specifically, and we were looking at a very specific type of audience. So we're, we were trying to reach a certain, uh, type of audience, uh, whether if it's agencies or creative teams or client-facing [00:26:00] teams. so we were measuring it.
[00:26:01] Obviously, free trials was the biggest one, but we were also measuring what plans they signed up to. and that was the really cool thing because you basically, the A/B test shows you, okay, it won in free trials, but 30 days later, you can also see who upgraded and what plans they chose. So we were also looking at if they took monthly, uh, memberships, uh, subscriptions, or if they signed for a year, and then which plan they took.
[00:26:30] And most of them took the second tier, which was much better 'cause we increased it from like, uh, the most basic tier to the middle tier, and yearly subscriptions. So we were measuring those kind of things, not because, not only because of revenue, but we wanted to check if it resonated better. So even if signups for free trials would not have gone up and they would've stayed the same, if we would've seen the same increase as we did [00:27:00] with people subscribing for paid, and going for the higher tier, we would still have chosen to go with that comparison page because that's what we ca- we cared about most.
[00:27:10] Um, so we want to actually increase retention, and we want to increase L- LTV and so on. So those were the things that we were looking at. And of course, like engagement, time on page, rabbit holes, like where people were also going to, what other pages they were looking at, which is why we ended up adding that to the menu Because we realized that these were very good pages where people would go on them and then they'd go to the platform page and then they'd go to other ones.
[00:27:37] So it was a, good piece of content that would keep people there and sign them up to their email list too. They increased it, they cre- increased their email list by like 90%, I think. It was, it was an insane number, but that wasn't our main metric, so it wasn't something we reported on.
[00:27:51] Amanda Natividad: Cool. That's really, that's really thorough. Like, that's, that tells me, like, you were looking along the way to see, like, yeah, like if people are actually engaging with the [00:28:00] content, they're staying on the page, what else they're looking at. Like, so they're thinking about, like, what are the other questions that they had in mind, which is like, why did they go to that next page that they did?
[00:28:10] And then it's also getting at, like, are we reaching the right customer, right? Which plan are they signing up for? Which... Yeah, all that stuff. That's cool. So here's my quibble with A/B testing. My personal quibble with it is This obviously doesn't apply to everybody, right?
[00:28:28] This applies to really small teams or small websites, whatever. the problem with AB testing that I have, that some people have is it takes a while, depending on how much traffic you get, it takes a while to get to kind of critical mass where you can make a reasonable decision based on like what is statistically significant.
[00:28:48] Like, okay, now we know based on this many people who came to this page what happened, and sometimes, and not always, right? Sometimes what you're, what you're AB testing is, well, that thing is [00:29:00] objectively a better user experience, so why are we testing that thing? Or it's even just like, look, we're a tiny team and we don't really have the, the resources or the time to even just spend more on, like do some paid spend to get more traffic so that we can move faster or learn faster.
[00:29:19] one, why am I wrong about that feeling? And then two, it's also how might someone measure success in the shorter term, even if it's just like f- a few leading indicators?
[00:29:33] Talia Wolf: You're not wrong. Um, sorry. Amanda is never wrong. You can use that as a promo. Amanda Natividad, never wrong. Um, I am one of these CRO specialists who does not think that A/B testing is everything. I think that conversion optimization is about much more than A/B testing, and I would say that if you're a small team, [00:30:00] investing in A/B testing isn't always the right way to go.
[00:30:03] first of all, the most important thing, best practices are best practices. So if you're just getting started, yes, align your website to the best user experience possible. You do not need to test that. People need to be able to click on buttons, go through pages, understand where they're going, clarity, consistency, white space, all that good stuff.
[00:30:22] Don't test it. Just like switch over to it. That's, that's just what you do. Like that is part of optimization. Optimization isn't just A/B testing. so that's number one. And number two is if you don't have... So let's say your website is like, it's more or less good. You've done everything you think that you can in terms of usability, and when you look at your website, you're just not sure why it's not converting.
[00:30:45] There's no, there's no visible bug or anything where you're like, "Oh, people can't click on this," or, "This isn't obvious." So what we like to do for smaller teams that don't have traffic is actually start testing things in email or in [00:31:00] ads. So you can start running, uh, actual tests via email to see what content people resonate with most.
[00:31:09] For example, you can send out an email with two different subject lines, one that's more specific to the pain that they're experiencing right now, and one that's more around the solution or how they are going to feel at the end, and see what people resonate with more. Is it the solution or is it the pain?
[00:31:25] Um, you can actually start testing ad creative around different pains that you're thinking that actually, uh, keep people up at night. And you can also start posting on social media and writing blog posts and creating content and see what resonates most. And when those things resonate more, then you can actually apply them to the website.
[00:31:47] So it's a cheaper, quicker way rather than launching an A/B test. Because just to be clear, if you have less than 300 conversions a month of the same conversion, there's... don't waste your time on A/B testing because you [00:32:00] can't reach statistical significance in a short amount of time. And an A/B test shouldn't run...
[00:32:06] It, it usually runs between two to four weeks, depending on what you're measuring. This is like very generic right now what I'm saying. But if you have less than 300 conversions, invest in optimization that's before and after. Yes, you can do before and after testing. yes, you can also test stuff that isn't on the website and see what resonates and then apply it to the website.
[00:32:27] So I agree with you, Amanda. I don't think A/B testing is the, solution to everything.
[00:32:32] Amanda Natividad: Okay. I love that though. I love that you have a lot of different kinds of advice for different budgets and timeframes, and that's super helpful. Okay, we can wrap up. I have my two wrap-up questions. First one is, what is the best next step for people to learn more from you? And then two, it's how can people hire you?
[00:32:51] Talia Wolf: Hmm. the next best step to learn from me is probably follow me on LinkedIn, or go to my website [00:33:00] getuplift.co, and that is where you can get a ton of free content and blog posts and guides. And also we have a free email course where we teach emotional targeting over five days, so you can sign up for that.
[00:33:14] you can also hire me, and my team at getuplift.co, same website. you can hire us as an agency to do it for you. So you can either do it yourself or you can hire us to do it. And, um, yeah, you can get my book at taliawolf.com. That's another thing.
[00:33:28] Amanda Natividad: Yes. Get the book, "Emotional Targeting." Ideally get it from Talia's website, taliawolf.com. And thank you for joining us. This was so much fun.
[00:33:39] Talia Wolf: Thank you for having
[00:33:40] Amanda Natividad: All right, friends.
[00:33:41] Amanda Natividad: Thank you for listening or watching Zero Click Marketing. We'll see you next week.