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In Therapy Talk, clinical psychologist and co-founder of It's Complicated, Johanne Schwensen, takes you on a captivating journey through the world of therapy.
In conversation with a diverse array of mental health professionals, the various modalities are demystified, and therapy's intersection with society is explored. Whether you're a therapy-seeker or simply psychologically curious, Therapy Talk offers valuable insights and a fresh perspective on the impact of therapy.
Find your Therapist at: https://www.complicated.life
Music by Kadri Arula
Garima and expat therapy
===
Johanne: [00:00:00] When I asked my clients about their choice in selecting me as their therapist, the most frequent response is their connection to my background, as someone who has experienced many relocations, and understands the challenges of being a foreigner. The shared thread among therapists at It's Complicated is their international and diverse backgrounds. This is the theme of my interview with the wonderful Amsterdam based counseling psychologist, Garima Narwani. Her upbringing and adult life have provided her with a profound and intimate understanding of what it means to be an expat. Welcome to It's Complicated's podcast Therapy Talk. I'm your host Johanne Schwensen
Garima: So I'm a counseling psychologist based here in the Netherlands.
I see a lot of clients with anxiety spectrum
conditions, depression, grief, adjustment issues, with [00:01:00] their
life transitions and also intergenerational
trauma. So I see a lot of clients dealing with those issues. If I were to, in a nutshell,
describe my approach, it involves deeper exploration of
what troubles us and why.
My style is to learn about the root system,to
understand why the surface looks
the way it does,
In a,
if that if I use that
analogy
of just so,
like
what we
see on the surface.
of the leaves and what's happening with the leaves or the trunks, but, but
My approach
looks
at a deeper
exploration of the root system.
But, you know,
What's the environment?
of the soil? What's, what's
Sort of
nurturing,
what's not nurturing what's getting in the way.
Johanne: Right.
Garima: aNd I do so by borrowing tools
and
techniques from, of
course, different therapy modalities,
But the ones that really have a special place in my heart is
rational emotive behavior therapy, narrative therapy, inter [00:02:00] internal family systems therapy.
So I think that's something
that I utilize to
approach the understanding of the root system.
And my work in the last four to five years has
gravitated, towards expats and third culture adults.
Johanne: Is that how long you've lived in tHe Netherlands?
Garima: no,
I've so I, I've moved
around a lot.
So I
think
from 2018
when I started my private
practice, a lot of
Just
my clients seem to be expats or, or third culture adults, you know,
who've Grown up
in countries
different.
to the countries their parents grew up in.
Right. So
it is
just so happened that, you know, a lot of my work started
to see
Johanne: see
Garima: people with
these backgrounds walk in So
Johanne: so
Garima: that's me in a nutshell and my, and my profession.[00:03:00]
Johanne: Amazing. Can you say a bit about what actually are the unique stressors of, of expats since you've come to work as much with, with that group of people as you have?
Garima: Yeah.
I think it would
be helpful to sort of express that.
with
my own sort of background, being an expat myself.
So
Johanne: So
Garima: I've.
literally
lived a life, of just sort of
one
place to the other.
And
even if I've lived in a country,
long enough, I've sort of moved around
in different neighborhoods
as well. So I've just
constantly,
I feel
like I've moved a lot. So I was born and
raised
in Dubai, UAE, for the first
13 years of my life. I was in Dubai.
Johanne: in Dubai
Garima: and
I moved to India
in
eighth grade,
Johanne: grade
Garima: and.
I don't know
if
you know this about India, but India [00:04:00] is such an interesting, the interesting part of India is that there are just so many different
states, but
so if you move from one stage to the other,
everything changes
the language, changes.
the
script, changes the food
traditions,
culture.
The way people dress, everything about it
changes.
So It almost feels like you're in a very
foreign
place
yet familiar. It's
difficult to house that.
This
connection, if that makes sense. It's so different but
Johanne: familiar.
Yeah.
Garima: so.
Johanne: So
Garima: That's,
that's sort of what I was.
growing up with.
I, I did my high school, my undergrads, my
Masters in different
states, which was
challenging
in its own way.
ANd then I moved to South Korea with my husband
for three years.
in a very rural town as
well,
Not
not the shiny soul or Busan
the metro
cities, but[00:05:00]
countryside
Of Korea.
And
that, and that's, that was during
Covid times as well, which kind of extended our stay in Korea So 2019.
Until 2022. I was in Korea before moving to the Netherlands and I'm here
Looking back on it, I now realize like, oh, that,
That's a lot.
of, that's like
this
Cyclical uprooting and
adapting and uprooting and get, you know, getting
adapted.
I think I've
Johanne: realize
Garima: a lot of
the expat issues through my own experience
and
through my
own connection, like connection.
with my own experiences of being an expat and what actually that means because it wasn't until I actually, I. sat down and realized what this means.
I Always thought of myself like this
Johanne: this
Garima: breezy
or easy to adapt.
and
you know,
I'm I'm the bohemian nomadic
lifestyle kind of is appealing [00:06:00] to me and I'm just so easy going.
Johanne: going.
Garima: But it wasn't until I actually took a deeper look
and I
realized that
I,
think I am
just
Johanne: just
Garima: Iept,
admiring and masking.
Johanne: Mm-Hmm.
Garima: it.
it's, it's not.
so
much that I am,
Johanne: am,
Garima: of course, one part is that I,
I'm
adaptable and resourceful,
which of course is, is I guess the byproduct of MO having moved around so much.
But I just thought of that like as a personality trait. Like, oh, this kind of lifestyle,
suits me. But
I.
realized like,
but there's this nagging feeling, there's this,
Something's missing,
something's not adding up or something just doesn't fit quite,
right
enough.
Johanne: Yeah,
Garima: And
it was, it
Johanne: it was
Garima: then
when I really sat down and realized
Johanne: realized that,
Garima: I think I've just,
I'm just good at mirroring and good at masking and good at finding these kind of tactics to fit in. [00:07:00] And I didn't even
Realize I was doing all of that.
Johanne: of that,
Garima: And
I
think
one of
which
kind of
makes it.
Johanne: it
Garima: This
very
The
foundational quality
I guess
of, of an expat life. This,
everything
revolving around belonging and wanting to belong and respond and everything that we do is, is a response to that need, if that makes sense.
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: Right.
Johanne: Right. So
Garima: whatever, however you choose to respond to that need is
it, it becomes
this
Identifying
factor almost.
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: you know, kind of
describing
the expat, expat living
and
this
not being enough.
Not being just right enough. Not
fitting in
right enough.
is also another thing that comes along with it
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: to, to give you
an example.
I
I could never relate to
peers in,
[00:08:00] in, in,
Dubai,
and
I couldn't relate to my cousins
in India growing up
and not having the space but I just feel like, oh, I'm,
I
I get this, or people get me.
Johanne: me.
Garima: I couldn't understand
References Growing up.
with, with my cousins, right? Like what they grew up with, you know, with slangs or what games they grew up playing. I didn't grow up playing those games, so I
just couldn't understand and couldn't relate.
And So in Dubai, like I would, I, I Grew up listening to Hindi music but my friends could not understand that because they were just
Johanne: were just
Garima: Exploring
global Western
US
top
charts,
and you know, UK top
charts kind of music, and I'm, I,
couldn't get pop cultural references
there either. So always feeling
this sense of where do I belong?
Which society do I [00:09:00] subscribe to? It's a part of both these
experiences expat culture
as well
as the third culture
kiD
growing
Johanne: growing up.
Yeah. So
Garima: That was
Johanne: was something
Garima: I
noticed
in
my own experience, which also kind of
shaped my
viewpoint in my work.
Johanne: So with this foundational understanding what type of specific challenges are you on the lookout for in your work with expats
Garima: so, It kind of shows up In,
in a lot of different ways. right? So On the surface
it'll show
up as
Even
social anxiety.
Johanne: Mm-Hmm. .
Garima: Sometimes
it shows up as addictions.
So, so all of these upper top layer right of,
of, how it shows up. shows up sometimes in just sort of dissatisfaction with everything. Nothing Particularly [00:10:00] feeling like it's off, but everything feels off at the same time,
feeling lack
of intimacy, and lack of connections I. With people
around feeling
misunderstood,
feeling like you are just
out of reach.
right?
or or
a misstep. You, You're just not
in the same rhythm
with people around you. shows up sometimes like that.
Johanne: that.
Garima: and you
also tend to see
this
isolation.
that
You see a lot of guilt
as
well
You see
a lot of this homesickness and you, you see a lot of comparisons as well.
Like, oh, but life wasn't, if I,
If I, talk about
expat life and just.
expat life and not third culture phenomena, then it's like
You can see this dissatisfaction,
with [00:11:00] .You know
this,
this
gap between the expectations of how life was supposed to be in this country versus how it is and
this constant
going back and,
forth. But
let's say, but
in India this wasn't the case
But in India,
that wasn't the case.
But in India, this is the food. And India, you can go to a specialist and not really have to go through a GP to have a referral. anD
just constant going back to
Johanne: to
Garima: What
you've known and holding on to those
standards and
wanting
the, for those standards to,
do to
sort of
be
recreated here.
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: It it,
it creates this dissatisfaction that you often see.
with,
With a lot of expats working through this adjustment
period.
and that.
adjustment period is almost this golden period where it can either offer us the
Opportunity
to look
for a new normal.
Johanne: normal
Garima: Or
Johanne: or
Garima: you get sort of trapped in the spiral of [00:12:00] nothing is like
my home country.
Johanne: country
Garima: Right? And, and it's sort
of, we are robbing ourselves off the opportunity to give this new country a
Johanne: a short
Garima: So
that that adjustment period is actually a very
crucial one where we can explore this, where we
can
Johanne: can
Garima: witness these
experiences
that are so,
so,
natural
Johanne: natural
Garima: and that's what partly
is
for
someone to witness
how
valid these
reactions and responses are to this life transition.
Johanne: Yeah,
Garima: right? That it's
not just in your head, you're not
overthinking. This is a real,
thing, so
it makes sense.
You'll be feeling all of this,
it'll make
sense. You'll wake up
with this feeling.
of, I don't know what's wrong, but something's wrong. I don't know why I feel this way, even though I have A good job,
and and a good relationship,
and, but
something is different.
Johanne: Does it also become an opportunity to do work around [00:13:00] clarifying values? Because what, I'm hearing you say is that sometimes it is just a feeling that something really significant is not being met or it's it's not being watered sufficiently.
Garima: Yeah. Yeah. I
think it's a huge opportunity
and I think
that's the kind
of
Johanne: kind
Garima: work that
Johanne: work that
Garima: I, I do, I do. It's with with this group because it's this
Johanne: this
Garima: opportunity to get to know their.
Johanne: know their
Garima: cultural lived experiences, get to know their
spiritual beliefs, get to
know
these beliefs that maybe are
inherited.
you
know
Johanne: it's,
Garima: it's all
these things. It's an opportunity to learn about
their
cultural
identity and how we can,
Johanne: we can,
Garima: I
guess, find this.
harmony like, Okay, this is
where you come from. How do we sort of
preserve
these parts that are [00:14:00] valuable to you in this new place? How do we do that without necessarily disowning in
the
pursuit of fitting
in, if that makes sense.
Johanne: makes sense. Yeah.
Garima: Right.
Because that's what also we see this disowning and
sewing.
down our cultural identities, parts of it to, to
make it easier to fit in.
Johanne: in. You mentioned briefly that you also
do rational emotive behavior therapy. And I was wondering, just because I'm so ignorant within that specific approach, How you would imagine using specific strategies from that modality to address these types of challenges is
Garima: Yeah. Yeah. So
Johanne: So
Garima: if
we, if we talk about.
through the lens of REBT,
Right.
We know
that.
Johanne: know that
Garima: it's not just an event and a behavior, right? It's not just what happened and I'm responding to it, sort of
blindly
or just in isolation of [00:15:00] the event. But it's,
it's
more about how we perceive the event. that sort of shapes the way we respond to it.
right?
So it's the
Perception and the focus on the meanings
we've assigned
to this
experience, What
Johanne: what
Garima: Beliefs are
functioning in the, in the background, what's the context within which we're experiencing this?
right? So
all of that kind of helps us get to know
how we're
approaching this
and why.
And it's less about the events
in, in some cases
and
more about
what
this event means to us.
Johanne: us. Yeah. And
Garima: If
we are able to
understand
that and hold space for that
what this means to them, and of
course
Johanne: of.
Garima: for them to feel Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.
I, mean, If I, if I were to
Johanne: were to,
Garima: if I were
to view this event through that, lens, it makes [00:16:00] sense why I'm
reacting or responding
this way.
Johanne: this way. Mm-Hmm.
Garima: S but
maybe
there's another
story
to this
event and
what could that be?
And the exploration of
Johanne: of
Garima: another
story that does
suit me
more,
that
still
Johanne: still
Garima: makes me feel
like I.
have a
Sense of
Johanne: of
Garima: control or, or
or I can do something about this. It's not the only story.
it's not
the only. lens.
Johanne: That's,
Garima: So
that's where REBD would come
into play, if that makes
Johanne: makes sense. It does. It almost sounds like you're using these frameworks, RABT and the other modalities like maps
that, that you can hold out in a way in front of both you and your client to go on this exploration into the root network of their, of their [00:17:00] challenges, of their issues.
Garima: Yeah.
Johanne: I was also thinking to go maybe one level deeper into the defining traits of the third culture adults coming to your practice. I have some theories that, for instance, they engage in more therapy speak. They have . You know, done more work beforehand
Garima: Yeah. You mean the third culture kids?
Johanne: Yes. you know, maybe as , part of their journey, just, um, trying to always fit in
Garima: I think
what you're also kind of hinting at what I'm hearing from what you're saying is also there's this sense of searching with
Third culture kids
who are now adults, this, is always
constant
Johanne: constant
Garima: yearning or
urge of just searching,
you
know? And I guess in the pursuit of that,
or
in the process of searching,
I,
I, I do believe [00:18:00] some are, some of them are trying to grasp at something that could resonate with.
them because that's what the experience of third culture is. You know, that's what the experience of third culture is. This
Something that,
I can call mind,
something that.
resonates with me, something that makes me feel heard and seen and represented.
So maybe when you're seeing a trend of therapy speak, or therapist speak, in, in maybe this
group, maybe they
are searching for a voice that resonates with them and maybe they are .Let's say, you
know, of course we are all on
social media. at This point,
It's
becomes a huge part of our
Lifestyle
And
depending on which generation you belong to.
if you're Gen ZI mean you've grown up with technology and social media in, in a way,
right? So you are
also, the exposure to these voices
out
there
is
also heightened and maybe
Johanne: maybe [00:19:00]
Garima: we
are seeing
a
growth in the acceptance and sort of
Adopting
these these
terms.
The, you know,
The trend of the therapist
speech, like boundaries and
Healing and attachment styles and
what
kind of disorder
diagnosis do I have and, maybe this
group is also trying to
solve
through their searching this
Johanne: this
Garima: internal
Johanne: internal
Garima: dichotomy, if
that makes sense.
You know, this internal, like
what am I,
who
am I allowed to be? And maybe, Maybe,
Johanne: maybe
Garima: labels and therapists be, can offer us this respite temporarily of
who am I allowed to be?
Or
maybe I'm
Johanne: I'm just
Garima: This, and
maybe I am, you know, because I have a disorganized attachment style. This is who I am, you know,
Johanne: I mean, I was just gonna say, actually, I was just gonna say that . It's so [00:20:00] weird being a psychologist myself and then realizing how um, normalizing and how helpful it can . It, it can feel to read about, a new category and seeing, okay, maybe that actually truly is I.
Something that applies to me
Garima: I think you, what you've just highlighted here is,
Johanne: Is
Garima: so on one hand we are talking about people coming in with therapist
kind of terms, right, that they've heard or adopted,
which
can be
Problematic, but
also on other levels. It's empowering because it's
starting
up conversations that we've needed for a very long time.
Right. It's empowering us with knowledge and Yeah, And that's, that's exactly it. Labels and these terms.
Johanne: terms. [00:21:00]
Garima: I think
the important thing to realize is that this, the labels are not the whole story. They're have they're conversation starter
Right. It.
and it needs to be seen
as
a conversation starter. It's, it's,
the pollute, it's
the,
it's the.
amus bush of like your journey of your personal work, right?
I
mean,
Johanne: think
Garima: it's,
Johanne: it's,
Garima: it's
important to have, of course, these
terms that help
explain
am
I meeting this? Am I,
are these symptoms?
you know, resonating with me? And that's what it is. They, they,
they explain
what it is.
Johanne: they,
Garima: They
don't,
explain why it is,
they don't explain
the uniqueness of
your experience.
with it. Right.
And that's the remaining half of
the conversation
which
needs to
happen. So I
Johanne: I think
Garima: when we talk about the terms,
Johanne: terms,
Garima: I, I welcome these terms
in my
practice
because it kind [00:22:00] of makes me also. be aware that oh, my clients are actually very,
keen on learning.
Right? And
that's something to be nourished
and that's something to be
welcomed.
And,
Johanne: and.
Garima: and sort of with the help Of the,
keenness, you know,
in, in therapy, my focus then would be to Sort
Johanne: Sort of
Garima: encourage
this curiosity,
but
in, in, in getting to know their own mechanisms
More deeply, right? That, okay.
Why
is that
a trigger?
for you and
Why is so? Of course, this explains your lived,
let's say, experience.
but Now we can take,
it from there and, and understand it
further,
Johanne: further.
Garima: how it sort of for you uniquely, right? So,
Johanne: So,
Garima: Yeah. I, I
also see a lot of clients coming,
in very
first consultation, very first session,
diagnosing themselves or, or
or calling someone [00:23:00] else
Let's say narcissistic or calling that, you know, or having
a certain idea of boundaries,
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: right?
And
all
of that's to be welcomed, but also like, okay,
great. Bring me This,
but
let's
actually
explore this. further.
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: Let
it not just
Be a
conversation.
that's reduced to labels, but what they actually mean for us, if that makes sense.
Johanne: Yeah. And narrative therapy, which you also mentioned as one of the modalities that you use and which I've had some training in, is really good at that part, at exploring, what would you call
this thing that culture has termed this and that like . Where does it sit in you? Let's, let's unfold it and,
Let's inspire you to put your own words on that experience.
Garima: yeah,
exactly.[00:24:00]
Johanne: Which I would say, you know, that's like level up in empowering
a person to use labels, not just in a generic and impersonal way
Garima: Yeah.
Let's, let's make that story more texture. Let's,
render them that narrative. Let's, let's add,
like, and that's the thing, right? I mean,
Johanne: I mean,
Garima: stories aren't one dimensional. They, they need to be layered. They are layered, they are multifaceted. So let's just do just that. Let's add more texture. Let's make it more
layered.
Johanne: yeah. The thicker the better.
Garima: The thicker, the better. said nobody about a narrative, but we are
Johanne: How would you guide clients? Through both this process of unlearning, you know, certain labels that might actually not be doing any good or doing them justice, but then also the process of thickening [00:25:00] to stay with that lovely word. Yeah.
Garima: I think
Johanne: I think
Garima: my
curiosity
always takes
me to,
Johanne: me to,
Garima: I.
I mean even with people in general
but also
with clients,
is how they see
something
and
how
and why.
are They
seeing, let's say
Johanne: say,
Garima: things a certain way. So I, I kind
of would like sort of
Johanne: sort of
Garima: understand it
from the point of view of. Their
connection
with this
label,
What,
what sort of
purpose is
that,
serving them
and to understand what's the.
hold for them? What's this need to connect with that particular label? Why have
they maybe,
is
this a defining thing,
Is it, is it an identity
thing? Is it what is it
providing?
Right?
And for
Johanne: for
Garima: to then also explore how they would see the downsides.
of overusing something like this.
Right?
So it's, it's, [00:26:00] all about
this exploration with
them, right? Rather than me
Johanne: me
Garima: guiding them
to a,
certain particular point. I'm sort of, it's like
a walk in the forest. Hey,
do, Should we look at this and you know, how are you,
looking at this? How are you finding this right? And, and what do you
think
about this? Shall
we sit some more on this? And, and, oh, do you wanna keep exploring different things? It's, it's more like a, I'm just
along for the
walk, if that makes sense. So it, it's more me being and staying curious about
Johanne: about
Garima: how are they seeing
and why.
And Seeing if they can themselves, identify
downsides because
they are capable,
You know,
most of
our clients are capable
of
identifying.
downsides identifying problems. Identifying this can be problematic. Right?
And
for
me to give
that[00:27:00]
acknowledgement to
them that they are capable
Johanne: capable
Garima: of,
of, finding out.
Johanne: out
Garima: And,
and steering this in a different direction. I just, I'm asking
the
questions. I'm just merely here for
a conversation.
right?
So.
Johanne: So,
Garima: And a
lot of clients. Have done that.
A lot of clients then start to be like, yeah, I think it's a limiting thing.
Like
if I,
maybe it's keeping me from exploring more if I just stick to this label,
maybe
it's not exactly
defining
what I am
going
through.
Right.
And then we sort of turn that conversation
into if
these.
labels aren't adding Too much.
Johanne: much.
Garima: Maybe
let's just
focus on,
focus on your experience.
of this. You
know how this feels, like, how this looks like to you, how this,
how, how do you react to
it?
right? So labels like,
Johanne: like,
Garima: oh,
my narcissistic mother did this and this and this. or my narcissistic friend did that. And then,
Johanne: then
Garima: [00:28:00] you know,
getting to know
more. Like,
what do you mean
How do
you mean?
What are you really referring to?
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: So not in terms
of
making them Drop
that label
but, but
making them
see
that this is more about the experience
with your
mother,
with your
friend,
and
of course where there is cause of alarm, we address that,
right? Because we have,
we,
I do have clients
who've been in narcissistic relationships and
Recovering
you know,
after that. But
of course
whenever there is a cause of alarm, we address that.
But
Johanne: But
Garima: We also have to then see
is it just an overused term? Is it
actually
happening? So,
which
requires a lot of curiosity in patience that,
Johanne: okay,
Garima: let
me
really see what's happening here. before we deem this
as therapist,
speak, if that makes sense.
Johanne: that makes sense. Yeah. But I also really like [00:29:00] the metaphor of the therapist being someone who is joining the person in, in a walk through the forest it's like a way of revisioning
traditional therapy
as as something going on in a secluded space where the therapist is the expert.
Garima: Hmm.
Johanne: Or just a blank slate
Garima: yeah.
Johanne: it's almost, it's almost like the therapist as a professional friend, you know, like someone who can help you.
Garima: Yeah.
I've always
identified as
a hired
Johanne: I like that better. I, I like that better. That also, that builds on, on the metaphors from the narrative therapy.
You know, this Sherpa can also have a map like a really useful map.
Garima: yeah.[00:30:00]
Yeah.
Johanne: it's, it's maybe more just like takes up less space also than a friend. You know,
Garima: Yeah. Yeah.
Johanne: it is less self-disclosing than a friend.
Garima: Yeah.
Johanne: Yeah.
Garima: Like,
I'm just here to walk with you in this terrain.
Right?
Yeah.
So it's, yeah, I,
I,
think
I've
Johanne: I've
Garima: identified with
that
analogy or the metaphor
For a while now,
then I
realized, hmm, what is
my role
And
it seems like more.
sort of guiding, being
Curious
and but guiding in a, in a way where I'm still waiting for
the cues from, from who I am with.
Johanne: Do you know that the first time I had a session actually my mentor told me that.
I just [00:31:00] had to remember that I was a hound, that I was a hound dog, that, you know, that that was my job just to follow, follow the lead, and to explore and to put my nose down and like sniff out the details and
just, and that I just had to make, make my curiosity, take the lead and do the job.
And.
Garima: Yeah.
Yeah.
Johanne: Yeah.
So, so I, I, I think I'm gonna adopt the Sherpa now.
Garima: please do
Johanne: like reclaim that
Garima: and
I'm gonna adopt the
how. I mean, that sounds really aptt,
Johanne: Thank you so much, Garima, for letting me pick your brain.
Garima: Oh,
it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you for having me, I love having these conversations and I can probably go on and on about what we've just spoken about, so thank you for giving me the [00:32:00] opportunity.
Johanne: Thank you for not only listening. But also for embracing this third season of the podcast. So, well, Downloading and sharing it as much as you have. My aim with this podcast is to provide insight into how the practitioners in our diverse therapy community work and to inspire you to care for yourself and your mental health. I also want to acknowledge that this episode is a week late.
And for that, I apologize. As a therapist and one of the co-founders. So if it's complicated, I conduct climb sessions in addition to recording, editing and managing this podcast and leading the therapist community. Since our team and its complicated consists of just 10, mostly part-time individuals. And our focus is on organic bootstrapped growth. Our product and content had a very human touch. Well, this is meant positively.
It also means there can be delays. Especially [00:33:00] when someone falls ill as happened with me. Anyways, happy holidays to those who celebrate. I hope you have a restful and to the year.