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Pastor Matt Brown, Justin Pardee, and Stephanie Keen carefully walk through chapter 16, arguably the most confusing passage in all of Luke. They discuss the importance of Christians being clever in today’s world, whether or not money is evil and how to be strategic with it, divorce and being ready for the afterlife.
Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Something about flight attendants, they they look at you when you request air when you request ginger ale. They just look at you like, oh, of course, you do. Like, it's a great beverage.
Matt Brown:It settles your stomach. Yeah. And I'm trying to write. It's like soda with a purpose.
Justin Pardee:Yo. Mic check one two one two. We in the house. Yeah. Come on.
Justin Pardee:I ain't too proud of beg. I'm Justin Party here on The Debrief.
Stephanie Schaefer:I am Stephanie Keane, your Brown Eye Girl.
Justin Pardee:And we have the man The beat who's pastor who's got it going on, pastor Matt Brown.
Matt Brown:Hi, guys. So glad you're here and listening.
Justin Pardee:Actually I
Matt Brown:guess they're not here, but they're listening.
Justin Pardee:Well, they're listening. Well, they're Yeah. Hearing Exactly. We are thinking of you, the listeners. Do you know why?
Justin Pardee:Because you, the listeners, often think of us and it drives you to that iTunes store where you leave wonderful and encouraging reviews. I got I'm so stoked on these reviews, guys. Listen, this one comes from a Japanese sandalite is how they label themselves.
Matt Brown:Yes. Here's the question I have.
Stephanie Schaefer:They're a Japanese person who goes to sandals?
Justin Pardee:Exactly.
Stephanie Schaefer:Or do you think they like Japanese sandals? I have a lot of questions.
Justin Pardee:Or do they live in Japan?
Matt Brown:Oh, would they're like That's one of the places I wanna go. Wife doesn't wanna go there.
Stephanie Schaefer:I bet you might have something to stay with.
Matt Brown:I know.
Justin Pardee:So our Japanese friend, would you do us a favor? Give us some information about your identity.
Stephanie Schaefer:More about you.
Justin Pardee:Yes. Yes. Identify yourself. Listen, this is so great though. They said, I find that virtually every challenging question that comes up in a corresponding bible chapter is answered here.
Justin Pardee:I think that oftentimes the controversial or challenging issues of the bible are largely ignored but not here. This has been invaluable resource as a leader of a small group. Thanks so much for all you do, guys. Awesome. You're welcome.
Matt Brown:Thank you, our Japanese samurai. We love you.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yes. We're gonna Oh, that's a We new got undercover samurai and then the No. Undercover Eskimo and then sandal samurai. Yeah. Excellent.
Justin Pardee:And then here's one from m shafer. So much radness, it's rad. Another five star review. My husband and I love this podcast more than a teacher loves to say shh. What?
Justin Pardee:It gets better. The honesty and rawness is refreshing and many of the questions have just nagged at me have been answered on the podcast. Justin is kind of like the Nacho Libre of Sandals Church.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yes. No truer statement has been uttered, Emmett Schaefer.
Justin Pardee:Oh, it made me so happy. You glowing. Stephanie is gem truly outrageous. Now, I think that she's a character from the eighties? Oh, I
Stephanie Schaefer:have no idea. I I googled it because I didn't know and I'm really sorry that I didn't get a chance to receive what you're saying, but thank you.
Justin Pardee:We're gonna do some research on this.
Stephanie Schaefer:I think
Justin Pardee:Jem is like a rock star from Right? The movies TV But I was only allowed to watch channel two for the Disney Channel when I was a kid in the eighties. And Passer Matt is a mixture of Han Solo and Obi Wan both Yes. And My
Matt Brown:favorite characters.
Justin Pardee:I think
Stephanie Schaefer:that is the hugest compliment anyone has ever paid Passer Matt.
Justin Pardee:Literally. Passer Matt's face
Matt Brown:just lit up like mine when I saw Tim Chopra. A blaster.
Justin Pardee:Oh, lightsaber and a blaster. Dude.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yes. I work with 12 year old boys sometimes.
Justin Pardee:Exactly.
Stephanie Schaefer:It's beautiful.
Matt Brown:FYI, I was Han Solo. My 12 year when I was 12 at Halloween.
Stephanie Schaefer:I believe that with all of my heart, soul, mind, and strength. Boom. Well, here on the debrief, we are taking your questions about chapters as we're walking through the books of Luke and Acts this year at Sandals Church. So if you want to send in questions about anything you're reading through Luke with us, can send those in at sandals church dot com slash the debrief.
Justin Pardee:So today, we are gonna jump right into Luke chapter 16 and you warned us in the last episode that this chapter was gonna be a doozy, I believe
Matt Brown:that Yeah. The is gonna be the most difficult chapter to navigate probably in the entire Gospel of Luke. So there's gonna be a lot of confusion, there's gonna be a lot of questions. Hopefully, we can answer some of those today. But even as you, you know, if you read a commentary, you're gonna get multiple different views, passionate positions.
Matt Brown:So I'm gonna try to guide you or guide us through what I think is is the safest way to interpret these really difficult, you know, teachings of Jesus in this chapter. But it's by far the most difficult as we look at the shrewd manager, and then the story of the rich man and Lazarus. And then, you know, some some really meaty teaching in between, you know, the two sandwiches of controversy. So the two the two piece loaves of bread of controversy, I guess.
Justin Pardee:Wow. So hold on to your hats and glasses, flip open your bible to Luke chapter 16, and let's dig in.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. I would even say that if you're listening now and you haven't yet read Luke 16, I would stop what you're doing, switch apps, just read through that really quick.
Justin Pardee:Stop what you're doing. I'm about to ruin. We'll keep going.
Stephanie Schaefer:You can also stop, collaborate,
Justin Pardee:and listen if
Stephanie Schaefer:you wanted to.
Matt Brown:So
Justin Pardee:Alright. Are you okay? So let's jump right in. So verse three and eight, it's kicks off. There's really two stories, two parables that Jesus has got going on here.
Justin Pardee:The first one is a shrewd manager, the other one is about this rich guy named Lazarus. Many questions.
Stephanie Schaefer:A rich guy and a guy named Lazarus.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:Not to be confused with one another.
Justin Pardee:Exactly. Okay. So verses three and then starts off like this. The manager thought to himself, now what? My boss has fired me and I don't have the strength to dig ditches and I'm too proud to beg.
Justin Pardee:And then he goes on and he changes a bunch of the bills of the people that work for his boss. In verse eight, the rich man had to admire the dishonest rascal for being so shrewd. And is it true that the children of this world are more shrewd in dealing with the world around them than are the children of light? So a couple questions for you here, man. Shrewd can mean dishonest or mischievous, but it can also mean like sharp and clever.
Justin Pardee:So what is exactly that Jesus is saying here, and what's what's he commending about this guy in the story?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So here here's the problem in the controversy with the passage is Jesus seems to be indicating that he's complimenting this person for being dishonest. And so if you're new to Christianity, nowhere in the Bible is dishonesty approved. So, the Bible says that God loves the truth, we draw near to Him in truth. Paul says we speak the truth in love.
Matt Brown:So, Jesus says I am the truth. This is a real real problem for us as we approach this story. And, you know, if this is your first time encountering this story, you know, I've just seen people get frustrated and just literally, I've had a person leave our small group years ago and actually walk away from our church. She's like, I can't believe Jesus would approve this because this passage is so so difficult to understand. And so there's there's multiple ways of looking at this.
Matt Brown:And so the parable of the dishonest manager, you know, some people interpret that what the guy ultimately does is he cuts his commission when he when he pays everybody back. So what he's doing is he's shorting himself. But I think that's a stretch. And so people try to interpret the passage that way to make Jesus seemingly not complimenting him from being dishonest. And the problem is, he's called the dishonest manager after he chops the debt.
Matt Brown:And it's considerable debt of his master's money. And so
Justin Pardee:It's basically like 50%.
Matt Brown:Yeah. He's ripping off his manager. Excuse me. He's ripping off his master as the manager to save himself. And so here's the principle I think that Jesus is teaching, and there's two things.
Matt Brown:Number one, Jesus is saying, do whatever it takes to take care of your eternity. And I think I think we need to interpret, and that's why it's so important that we not just interpret this story on its own. I don't think that that Luke is merely recounting stories that that Jesus talked in order. Luke is putting these stories together to, you know, multiple teachings and sayings of Jesus in such a way to teach us something. So he's trying to tell us what Jesus said, but he's also trying to tell us what he wants us to know and believe about the gospel story.
Justin Pardee:So to make that really clear, what you're saying is that this first parable and the second parable packed together are helping us understand what an
Matt Brown:Right.
Justin Pardee:And they
Matt Brown:may not have been taught in the same setting.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:So so so we don't know that. So I think that Luke, you know, Jesus may have just completely taught this this all the way through, but there's some stuff that seems to not go, and we'll get to that in the middle of passage. But I think Luke is putting these stories together in such a way to try to tell us something. And so Okay. The first point is this, that this whole story seems to be focused on eternity.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so because we're gonna end with eternity in mind with the story of the rich man Lazarus. And so this story is this shrewd manager, this dishonest manager realizes what's at stake. So he realizes, right? He's not strong enough to support himself by manual labor. He's not humble enough to go beg.
Matt Brown:So he's got to figure out a way to take care of himself for the rest of his life. And so what he does is, he does whatever it takes. And so what Jesus is doing here is, I think Jesus is commending the fact that this guy gets it, look, many eternity's at stake, I've got to do whatever it takes. And so the problem with with that is the approach that he takes is dishonest. But I think what Jesus is trying to say here is look, specifically to those of us who are believers is, you know, we need to understand that people of the world oftentimes were more crafty than we are.
Matt Brown:And so sometimes Christians check their brains at the door. And I see this all the time at Sandals Church. So they'll say, well, we don't need to worry about our finances because God will provide. I don't need to worry about, you know, whether or not I keep my job because God will take care of me. And so we become these fatalists, and we divorce ourselves from any kind of responsibility in the process.
Matt Brown:And and in that way, oftentimes people of faith are morons, and that's just the truth. And that's why a lot of unbelievers look at us and it's like, it's just ridiculous. Know, it's when we say it's in God's hands, yes, it's in God's hands, but God's hands have placed many of the decisions that affect your life in your hands.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so that that's what's so frustrating to me with Christians is they kind of check out and assume that God's just gonna navigate that. And that kind of thinking leads to disaster. So in the old testament, the people of Israel thought we can do whatever we want. God will never allow, you know, Israel to be destroyed. It was destroyed.
Matt Brown:Fast forward a thousand years to the city of Constantinople, now called Istanbul in the country of Turkey. You know, a lot of people don't realize that was the capital of Christianity for fourteen hundred years. It was the new Rome. You know, it was it was the center of of all thought. And people don't realize, you know, when you when you study, you know, the enlightenment period and all those amazing artists and everything, that whole renewal, the renaissance that took place in Italy
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:The reason that happened is because they all had to bail Constantinople. Oh. Because the city was burned, and they all fled to Italy, and there's this resurgence of ideas. But all of that at one time was there, and they thought God would never allow them to be destroyed. And so they just well, it's in God's hands.
Matt Brown:And guess what happened? The Muslims conquered them. I mean, that that's what happened. I mean, literally tore the city down, you know, it was absolutely horrible. And some of those old old Gregorian chants that you hear, you know, the, they're doing is they're mourning the fall of Constantinople, because they can't believe that it happened.
Matt Brown:So Jesus is saying, just because you have faith in me doesn't mean you get to be an idiot. Use your mind, be shrewd, specifically develop a strategy. So Jesus in another section says, be as as shrewd as a snake and as innocent as a dove. Mhmm. So we don't get to compromise our integrity, but we we need to value what we need to value in people who don't know Jesus is they're crafty.
Matt Brown:And as Christians, we have to have strategy. We have to be crafty. We have to figure out a way to do the things that we need to do in a way that both benefits our life and honors God. And so what we're learning here is is, okay, this guy this guy understood, man. He's gonna have to use his brain.
Matt Brown:He's gonna have to develop a strategy to take care of himself. We need to do the same things. For eternity, all of us need to figure out what do I need to do to inherit eternal life? What is the strategy? Here it is.
Matt Brown:Humble yourself, repent of your sins, place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ. And some people can't do that and won't do that, but but we need to do that. So I believe that the manager is dishonest. You know, Jesus, I think is pointing out one area in this guy's life that's right. Remember, a broken clock is right twice a day.
Matt Brown:So he's not saying that everything about this guy's life was right. Everything about this guy's life is awesome. He's not telling us to emulate all of his character. He's simply say stating, sometimes nonbelievers are wiser and more shrewd and crafty than Christians. And so, can't, as Christians, let the world out think us.
Matt Brown:We can't. We have to think, we have to strategize, we we have to be smart. And so, that's the principle there. And then he's gonna get into some teaching specifically about money and choosing, you know, who your master is.
Justin Pardee:Can you talk really quickly about that? Like, when you say we have to make sure that the world is not out thinking us, outsmarting us, whatever. Do you have an example? Or what do you mean by that a little bit more specifically?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So for, you know, for a thousand years, Christians were the smartest. Philosophers. We were the cutting edge, the great thinkers. And ultimately, I mean, a lot of people don't realize this, but universities, anybody who's going to school, that was a Christian's idea.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. You know, idea of university of studying, you know, this all comes from Christian thought and practice. And it is churches, Most of these places, right, started out as seminaries, Harvard, Yale, these amazing schools, Oxford. These were places of study to know and connect with God. And ultimately what happened is Christians quit thinking, and unfortunately the world didn't stop thinking.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so we need to to reengage in these ideas. We need to think in these, you know, ideas. The apostle Paul says that as Christians, we're to take every thought captive. And a lot of times people use that as a way of making Christ, you know, in control of all your thoughts. That's not what Paul means.
Matt Brown:What Paul means is every idea that's out there, every philosophy, we have to make it submit to Christ because ultimately, Christ is the wisdom of God. And so we need to not be intimidated by that. So we have to be strategic as a church. You know, there's a reason that, you know, we're out here in the middle of nowhere with the donkeys and the warehouses, because we don't wanna go into debt. I've seen a lot of churches in our own town get in way over their heads financially, because they didn't think, they didn't strategize, you know, they got stupid, and now they're in trouble.
Matt Brown:And so we've had to do that. Why are we doing multisite? Because it's much more inexpensive way to grow the church, to teach people about Jesus, than can than keep building a bigger and bigger and bigger building, which is what churches have historically done.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:You know, it it requires millions and millions of dollars, whereas a satellite campus requires only, you know, thousands of dollars. So it's far it's a far more frugal way Mhmm. Of accomplishing the mission. And at Sandals, you know, we have to be the smartest. We have to be the sharpest in every decision that we make because we've made bad decisions.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. And you know, I had to look at that as the leader and say, okay, we can't do that again. And so the same thing in your you know, in your house and your family, you have to you have to lead wisely. And so we all have to do that. As a single person, you have to do that.
Matt Brown:As a married person, as the leader of the church, we have to be stewards of what God has called us to do. And, you know, that's important. And so if you look at it from that story, right, the master is firing the steward because he wasn't a good steward. He wasn't managing the resources of the master well.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So it sounds almost like, as you've talked about a little bit with some of the other parables, that you would advise us not to get caught up and hung up on who's the master, who's the Yeah. The who's and who's, but really just stay focused on the principle as we're trying to unpack this story in our groups.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So so here's where you get into danger, is you try to pull out multiple points in the story. Okay. You know, and and that's when you get really really wonky in your theology and your teaching. And so, you know, Jesus is talking to, once again, to rich Pharisees.
Matt Brown:You know, he's talking to people, and and I think he's warning them. And he's saying, look, man, the the right the principle, the master is going to call all of you into account for how you managed his wealth. The Pharisees have not managed God's wealth good. They haven't. Right.
Matt Brown:And so they're going to be fired. They're going to be removed. But Jesus acknowledges, you know, they're not they're not complete idiots. They do have a strategy in mind, and and and they're and they're trying to figure it out. And so as Christians, we need to also, we need to act righteously, we need to act honestly, but we need to act shrewdly.
Matt Brown:We need to be very very careful. So that's why Jesus says be as shrewd as a serpent. I mean, if you think about a snake, a snake is is very very vulnerable. You know, it has one weapon, its mouth. It has to strike, and it has to be very very careful.
Matt Brown:Because it's if it turns into a wrestling match, right, snake's done. So so we we have we have to be very very careful, and then someone's gonna write in and talk about pythons. Well, those weren't there in Jesus' day. Right? They're vipers and they strike.
Matt Brown:So he's not talking about anacondas who wrap us up and
Justin Pardee:Slow down slow down you snake geniuses. Yeah. Speak speak yeah. I was gonna say, my wife also says I have one weapon. It's my mouth.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Okay. So speaking of the the moral of the story here, or like the one point. Jesus in verse nine full on goes, here's the lesson. Use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends.
Justin Pardee:Then when your earthly possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home.
Stephanie Schaefer:So kind of a question out of this. Does this passage imply that having wealth is bad, or that it's more spiritual to have less wealth?
Matt Brown:Right. No. No and no. So this passage means that we are to use we are to be strategic in the way that we use our wealth. Use your wealth to build relationships.
Matt Brown:So two thousand years ago, right, there's no such thing as social security. There's no such thing as financial help. I mean, all of those ideas are modern ideas. When you ran out of your money, were homeless, you were gonna die and starve. And you know, if you're a woman, you could maybe sell yourself as a slave or become a prostitute.
Matt Brown:You know, as an older man like this guy, your options are very very limited. So always be using your money. If you're a business person, you know, don't burn bridges. Don't burn bridges. I see people people that do this all the time.
Matt Brown:You don't burn bridges because you never know when you might have to walk back across that bridge. Mhmm. So always treat people with love and respect, and try to be rich relationally. And that's what I would say about people is, in my own life, you know, I am not a wealthy person. I I'm not rich, but I am rich in relationships.
Matt Brown:I know people, you know, I've been good to people, and people are good to me. And so I can lean on those relationships when I need something, because I'm very very wealthy when it comes to friendships. And Jesus is saying, you've got to do this. Now, ultimately, I think that the last sentence was what did what did he say? He said, be rich.
Justin Pardee:Then when your earthly possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home.
Matt Brown:Right. So, you know, again, so we need to be strategic here about with eternity in mind. We need to use our money in such a way that it reflects our eternal destination. What are we fixating and focusing our money on now? The here and now, you know, becoming the wealthy.
Matt Brown:And and this is what's so sad, right, about people who gain the whole world. Mhmm. You know, the richest person in the world in the end has nothing because you don't get to keep it. And so the Christian principle is, is invest in eternity. Invest in eternity.
Matt Brown:So every time Tammy and I, you know, we write our tithe check to the church, every time we support a missionary, every time I help somebody who's needy or poor, you know, right? God is Jesus promises that he's going to bless that investment a 100 fold. Think about that. A 100% return on everything that I do, and that money is safe and secure, and those things go with me to eternity. My investments in the stock market don't, my investments in in property doesn't, my my the money in my bank account, none of that goes with me.
Matt Brown:But the investments that I've made for all eternity, those things do go with me. And so God doesn't, you know, guarantee a blessing in this life, but he guarantees a blessing in eternal life. So use your wealth, you know, back to the shrewd manager, use your wealth and operate your money with eternity in mind. This guy figured out life is going to change. My position and status has changed.
Matt Brown:I need to invest in such a way that I'm taking care of. As Christians, we need to always remember that. You know, money on this earth won't last forever. We're going to spend, you know, eternity with God, which you can't even measure the the brief amount of time we are here on earth in comparison to that. So live your life with eternity in mind.
Matt Brown:Spend your money with eternity in mind, because that's what lasts. And there's gonna be a lot of people that are very disappointed on the day of judgment, because so much of what they did burned. And Paul talks about that in Corinthians, that only, you know, the gifts of gold and silver, only those things last. But the gifts of straw, hay, and wood, right, they all burned. And so it doesn't last.
Matt Brown:And so spend your money with eternity in mind. And so this guy, right, developed a strategy to figure out how to prepare for the next life. And we as Christians need to prepare for the next life.
Justin Pardee:And this makes me think of the the couple in our church who, know, like recently sold their larger house and it downsized Yeah. Because as over the couple of last years, as God's really grabbed their heart with missions and all those other things, they want to be intentionally investing
Matt Brown:Yeah. I mean, know, it's a family in our church, you know, that that are millionaires, you know, they've made more money than all three of us will ever see in our lifetime. But they've realized, man, that's not what life is about. And so they're downsizing, you know, changing up their ministry. And specifically, you know, many of you are struggling to tithe 10% of your income, these people feel led by God to tithe 90%.
Matt Brown:So to completely reverse it, to live off 10% of their money, and to give 90% of their money to furthering the gospel and seeing people saved all over the world for Jesus. So when you think about that, right, they've they've basically said no to themselves on earth, and they are going to be blessed incredibly in And, you know, and they're they're they're not a poor family. Right? They're Mhmm. They're a very very wealthy family.
Matt Brown:And certainly if you're poor, don't do that, because your first priority as a Christian is not to be a burden to the church. So get a job, take care of yourself. And so this is why, right, we don't we don't all quit our jobs, we don't all, you know, sell all of our possessions and pull it into a group, because then ultimately someone's gonna be needy. Someone has to work. So your first responsibility to take care of yourself so that you can be generous to those in the church who are temporarily in need.
Matt Brown:And so here's the difference between, you know, the church's point of view about poverty and say the US government. The US government's position on helping people perpetuates poverty poverty. In the church, we want to help people temporarily so that they can get out of poverty. Right. And that means they've got to work, that means they've got to be stewards, that means, you know, they've got to deal with addictions.
Matt Brown:They, you know, if you're homeless, you can't have 87 dogs, right? Things like that. We have to help them work through those issues, so that they can come out of poverty, and and we wanna help them do that. Mhmm.
Stephanie Schaefer:So actually moving right into verse 10, I think Jesus kinda keeps talking about this exact point. He says, if you're faithful in little things, you'll be faithful in large ones. But if you are dishonest in little things, you won't be honest with greater responsibilities. So is Jesus making a warning or a promise here? Does God reward his followers financially if they're wise with their money?
Matt Brown:Well, let's go back. So read the first sentence again. Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:If you're faithful in little things, you'll be faithful in large ones.
Matt Brown:Right. So there's the positive side. Now say the negative side. The negative side was what?
Stephanie Schaefer:If you're dishonest in little things, you won't be honest with greater responsibilities. So
Matt Brown:go back to the parable of the dishonest manager. He was dishonest a little bit, right, at the beginning, and the master figures it out. And then what is he? He's incredibly dishonest with big things. And so I think Jesus is simply making an offer observation as you can't outrun your character.
Matt Brown:And so this is what a lot of people think is, is well when I get money, I'll be generous. If you're not generous when you're poor, you won't be generous when you're wealthy. And that's just the reality. And when you look at, you know, wealthy people, they're not they're not all that generous. You know, they're they're just not.
Matt Brown:That's some of the news that's coming out about Donald Trump. You know, his generosity is towards charity is really really lacking. And why is that? Because, and that's, you know, I'm not trying to All the Trump lovers, I'm not trying to slam him, it's just a reality.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:A lot The wealthiest people in our country are not the most generous. It's Yeah. It's the people with a lot less, because it's not an issue of surplus, it's an issue of character. You know, so Tammy and I, when we first got married, we had no money. We started tithing right then and there.
Matt Brown:And those dollars were very very painful. So now the checks that we write to the church are much bigger, but they're it's it's the same principle. So you have to decide, am I going to be faithful to God? Am I going to put God first? And when you make that decision, you're going to be that.
Matt Brown:But you can't lie to yourself. I mean, the vision of church, be real to yourself. You're not going to be more generous when you have more. Because generosity is a character issue. It's not based upon your ability to give, it's based upon what's in your heart.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, I think about when we built these buildings, some of the most generous people in our church, I literally brought me to tears. You know, gave all they had, the parable of the widow, right? She put in all she had, her last 2 pennies. And Jesus says that's the biggest gift of all. So so I would say this though.
Matt Brown:I think what Jesus is saying is, is if you want God to bless you with more, be faithful with a little that you have. So.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So let's look at verse 13. Jesus says, no one can serve two masters, for you will hate one and love the other. You'll be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Matt Brown:Right. And here's the principle, and we need to go back to the shrewd manager, because that's right within the context. And so did did the shrewd manager, did he ever serve his master? No. He served himself.
Matt Brown:And so that's the issue. The issue is not do I serve God or do I serve money? The issue really is this, do I serve God or do I serve myself? Because money is just another another way for saying you. Because right, the possession of money, the desire for money is the is the desire to, you know, gain more things for yourself.
Matt Brown:Totally. Yeah. And so and so that's the battle. And know, the shrewd manager, right, he's dishonest all the way through. He's never about the master.
Matt Brown:And so that's true for you as a believer. You are either focused on money, or you're focused on God. And if you're focused on God, that's good, and if you're focused on money, you're focused on yourself. And so and just please pay attention. I mean, study after study, statistic after statistic is showing how miserable Americans are.
Matt Brown:We're more wealthy than we've ever been. We have more more pleasure than we've ever had. You know, this whole idea, right? You know, politics, everything is terrible, everything's getting worse, it's a lie. It's all a lie.
Matt Brown:Things have never been this good.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:And and in all of human history, things have never been this good. That that's just the reality, and no one wants to hear that, but it's the truth. Mhmm. You know, things have never been, you know, this is the least racist at any time in history. I mean, think things are great, and people are miserable.
Matt Brown:Why? Because we've bought into this lie that money makes you happy, and things make you happy. And the reality is they don't. They make you miserable. And, you know, so many of us as Christians, again, we're buying into the world's, you know, crap that it's gonna make you happy, and it doesn't.
Matt Brown:It makes you miserable. And so these millennials that are coming up are the most miserable generation that's ever been surveyed, and they have everything. Mhmm. Their whole life is about self entertainment. Their whole life is about self gratification.
Matt Brown:You know, their whole life is about self indulgent. And what and guess what? They're miserable. You know, they have the things that previous generations dreamed about.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:Everything's accessible to them, and yet the buzz has worn off and and and they're miserable. So so what was your question specifically?
Stephanie Schaefer:I'm actually gonna switch the question, kinda go back to one for so as we're talking about all this and what to do with wealth, would you say then that it's, you know, more spiritual to try to have less wealth? Or
Matt Brown:Yeah. No. So we don't believe at Sandals Church in a in a in a in a gospel of poverty or a spirit of poverty. God doesn't want you to be poor. And again, why?
Matt Brown:Because if you're poor, you can't help others. So the question is, why do you wanna be wealthy and why do you wanna be rich? What is the purpose? What is driving you to earn wealth? So for example, the couple in our church that wants to give away 90%, the purpose of earning wealth is to do good.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. You know? And so so I think that's admirable, and that's beautiful. And I'm not saying everybody needs to give 90%, but everybody better be given 10%. I mean, don't even talk to me about a spirit of generosity if you can't get to the place where you can tithe.
Matt Brown:I mean, right? You're you're I mean, I I don't wanna be too harsh, but you're lying to yourself and to me if you can't get to the tithe. And and certainly there are, you know, people are in financial positions, and have gotten themselves in in financial trouble. And let me just say this, you know, the number one reason Tammy and I say no to things is because we don't wanna say no to God. So I don't ever wanna put myself in a financial position where I can't give to God.
Matt Brown:That's the number one thing is Tammy and I want to be generous to God, generous to what he's doing, because we love him and care for him. But no, poor people are not more holy than wealthy people, because money is not inherently evil. The love of money is evil. Mhmm. You know?
Matt Brown:So for example, if I win the lottery tomorrow, which would be strange because I didn't buy a lottery ticket, but let's just say hypothetically that happened, I'm not more holy or less holy tomorrow when I win that money. Now, what does that money do to me? What do I do with
Stephanie Schaefer:that money?
Matt Brown:Right. The challenges are different. Right. The challenges have become different. And so for me, I have become my role as a steward is now greater.
Matt Brown:You know, am I am I about building my own wealth, building my own portfolio, or am I about, you know, building God's wealth, his kingdom? You know, what are what are my concerns? And so if my concerns are not, you know, the church, not his mission, not, you know, building a kingdom, then that's a problem. So
Justin Pardee:So listen, if this conversation is stressing you out and that because the topic of money is just a hard one for you, one of the things that's just so great about our our church family is that we have really incredible people who are not just generous with their finances, but with their time. And, with that, we've got really incredible support groups and, you know, even financial counseling available from other folks who have climbed out, some of them under hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and slowly move toward a place of generosity. So listen, if you are wanting to move toward generosity but you just feel like your circumstances are crazy, man, just reach out to us when you're here on the weekends. You can sign up for some of our support groups or classes for financial training and counseling, and we would love to come alongside you there.
Stephanie Schaefer:So now Jesus kind of shifts subjects here with verse sixteen and seventeen and says, until John the Baptist, the law of Moses and the messages of the prophets were your guides. But now the good news of the kingdom of God is preached and everyone is eager to get in. But that doesn't mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God's law to be overturned. So many of us know the 10 commandments, we know that that's part of the law, but what is the law of Moses, and how should we as Christians process that?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So basically, when you when you read the law of Moses here, you know, he's talking about, you know, the Torah, the writings. The
Justin Pardee:Torah is first five books?
Matt Brown:First five books of the Bible. So Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Got it. Then what's considered the writings, so poetry, psalms, you know, Ecclesiastes, Song of Psalms, stuff like that, and then the prophets. So the major prophets, and then the minor prophets.
Matt Brown:So what Jesus is saying is he's not coming to say none of that's null and void. What he's coming to do is interpret that for us specifically, to help us to understand in its meaning, and he's not doing away with it. And so that's what people say, well, I'm not under the law. And so what I would say is, okay, well, of the 10 commandments do you get to not do? And so, you know, Christians, as Christians, we struggle with this.
Matt Brown:And so what I would say is the way, here's the principle. You know, what Jesus is doing is he's saying, let me tell you how to be obedient to everything that Moses said, everything the prophet said. Right? He tells us, love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself. When we do these two things, we are being obedient to everything that the law teaches.
Matt Brown:So when you look at the 10 commandments, right, five are directed towards how we relate to God. Five are directed towards how we relate to other. Jesus says, love God with our heart, soul, mind, strength, love your neighbor as yourself, God and others. And that's what our faith must do is, is it must affect the way that we treat others. And so the accusation here is that Jesus is changing, he's saying something different, and he's not.
Matt Brown:He's fulfilling everything that the old testament said. And so, you know, this is the issue. And and, you know, Luke is probably putting in this in here because the accusation that Christians are facing is that they're rejecting the law of Moses, that they're creating a new religion. And what Luke is telling us, you know, from the words of Jesus is no. You know, Jesus is Jewish.
Matt Brown:All the 12 disciples are Jewish. And initially, all believers were Jewish, but over time, you know, more Gentiles, that is non Jewish people in the world became Christians. And so the question is, is this something new? And it's no, this has always been God's plan. Jesus is not deviating in any way from what the Old Testament speaks about.
Matt Brown:He's just clarifying it for us, and he is helping us to interpret it through him. And so, you know, sometimes in the Old Testament, there are things that are really really harsh, and things that, you know, just don't seem like Jesus. We have to interpret the Old Testament through the person and character of Jesus.
Justin Pardee:So. So hold really quick though. There's there's parts of the Old Testament law that as Christians, we don't necessarily follow anymore. Like, you know, stuff about even tattoos or the types of fish that we can eat or Right. You know, like Women have to go to the desert.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Yeah. That kind of stuff. What what about that?
Matt Brown:No. Ladies still have to go to the desert. No pancake.
Justin Pardee:We don't. Well, we just live in one. Yeah.
Matt Brown:Well, I have three I have three women in in my household and from time to time, I wish that that was still a commandment. So, no. I love my wife and daughters. Appreciate them. No.
Matt Brown:So so here's the issue is, right, this is gonna be settled when we get to Acts 15. Stephanie's scowling at me. I forgive you. Yeah. Thank you.
Matt Brown:Thank you for giving grace. In Acts 15, the question is going to be resolved is what what does a person need to do when they convert to Christianity? Do they have to become Jewish? And so we'll get to that in in Acts 15 when the council meets. James brings together the council, and they're going to decide what must they do.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, they're gonna talk about a couple of things, and we'll get that get to that in Acts 15, and if you you can read that on your own, and and exactly what the council decides. But it's very very limited. I mean, I think it's four or three things.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. We've talked about that a little bit.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So you know, don't eat things, you know, sacrificed to idols. Stay away from sexual immorality. I can't remember what the other the other two are. Moments like strangling.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Don't strangle things, right, animal cruelty. Right. Don't don't be bizarre. So a lot of it has to do with like these bizarre cultic practices.
Matt Brown:Stay away from that stuff because it's just creepy. But it says that that Christians ultimately will learn the principles of the law in the synagogue each week. So the idea was they're going to learn the law of Moses at some time. And so as Christians, you know, this is where we've most the vast majority of Christians have landed. We have to still live out the morality of the Old Testament, but we don't have to live out the specific cultural norms.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, we don't have to become a Jew. You that that is not what God is calling us to do. We don't have to become Jewish. If you're if you are a Jew and you become a Christian, I would encourage you to stay Jewish because I think that's one of the great heartbreaks of of ultimately of Christianity is Jews felt like they, you know, they didn't stay Jews. They became Christian.
Matt Brown:They became Gentiles. And I think that's tragic, and that's a conversation for another That's cool. Time. Because you need to stay Jewish, and you need to stay in your Jewish culture to reach, right, God's people. But for those who are Gentiles, we don't need to become Jewish.
Matt Brown:And and that is very very clear. So
Justin Pardee:Okay. So when I'm looking at some of these laws and rules that are in the Old Testament, I What you're saying is say, is this is this speaking to something morally, or is this speaking to like a cultural kind of issue?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So so, know, yeah. I mean, right, I can't kill people.
Matt Brown:And that's and you see that you see that in the in the New Testament, right? Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. You see you see those principles, and I think the Apostle Paul is is pretty clear when you when we, you know, if if this debrief goes long enough, we get into the epistles, he's gonna show us specifically the things that he focuses on. And again, the big ones are gonna be sexual immorality and worshiping idols. Those are gonna be the big ones.
Matt Brown:And other ones is how we treat each other, you know, being loving and kind to each other, serving each other, how we relate with one another, you know, which can all be summarized in the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, unless of course you're tweaked, then that law becomes difficult to put into practice. Right?
Justin Pardee:So Got it. Okay. So we kind of have this random verse 18 here where Jesus goes, for example, a man who divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery. And anyone who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery. So Jesus is saying, for example, but does he actually mean this?
Justin Pardee:Like, if I
Matt Brown:So was divorced what he's doing So remember remember who his enemies are. His enemies are Jewish lawyers and Jewish Pharisees. So Jewish clergy. Okay. And what they're doing is they're accusing him of violating the law constantly.
Matt Brown:So every time he heals somebody in the Sabbath, right, you're you're breaking the law. You're breaking the law. You can't do these things. And they're trying to point out these areas where, you know, he's wrong. And so he just said, look, man, I'm I'm not changing anything with the law says.
Matt Brown:He ultimately says, you guys don't understand the law. And I think he throws this in their face, because what they would do is they would grant each other the permission to divorce. What he's saying is he's throwing it in their faces. He's saying, you you think you think that I'm soft on the law? He's like, you guys are softer on the law.
Matt Brown:And so he specifically gets into this is that Moses granted the permission for divorce. He says, because of the hardness of your hearts. And so that law is actually in there because they're evil. It's not pointing to something that's righteous. Divorce is evil.
Matt Brown:It's ugly. It's awful. And he's saying, you guys get divorced. And so he's probably speaking in this instance to Jewish Pharisees and Sadducees who had dumped their old wives for new hot young ones. And he's saying, look at you.
Matt Brown:You you think you think you, you know, you you love God's law, you have violated this. And so it's important, you know, here. So in the gospel of Matthew, Matthew softens the teaching of Jesus. He says that, you know, that you can't get divorced except in the in the area of infidelity, which is the we get the word unfaithfulness. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:And so that specifically means sexual unfaithfulness, and it means it can mean other areas of unfaithfulness. It doesn't just have to mean, you know, you cheated. But let me just say this, and if you're divorced, I love you, and I'm praying for you, and you're not excluded from the kingdom of God, you're not kicked out of the church, but we need to all understand this divorce is evil.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:It is. Sometimes it's a necessary evil. Right? Like, you have to get divorced. You're in a you're in a position of abuse.
Matt Brown:You're in a I mean, right? But it's it's you're choosing divorce because it is the lesser of evils. But it is not a good thing. It's an ugly thing, and it's something that we need to deal with. And the Bible says God hates divorce.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:Hebrews says, you know, Hebrews 13 says that God will judge those who defile the marriage bed. Jesus says, what God has joined together, let no man tear apart. This is a serious serious thing. And so this is what I would say is, you know, if you're divorced, there's nothing you can do to fix that. You know, repent of that, ask God to forgive you, and the Bible says that he will.
Matt Brown:Right? He forgives us of our sins. If you are married, do whatever the heck you have to do to try to make it work out. And if you feel like you've exhausted that, and it can't work out, come talk to the church. Come talk to us.
Matt Brown:I I I would in no way ever divorce Tammy under any circumstances unless I had, you know, the other pastor's blessing at this church. I just wouldn't do it because I know that I am prone to selfishness. I'm prone to seeing things from only my perspective, and my sinfulness can skew what I see as righteous, and what I see as good. And so I need to have non involved parties who love me, and who love the Lord to speak into my life. And and the problem is, right, we don't get that at at as the church anymore.
Matt Brown:So like in the Catholic church, they say, you can go get divorced in the courts, but they they don't acknowledge that. You have to go to the church to get your marriage annulled. Because they see they see marriage as something biblical. They see that something it is nothing governmental. And I I think it's unfortunate that we've asked, you know, America to get involved in marriage, because now look what's happened.
Justin Pardee:Right.
Matt Brown:Right? We asked them to, you know, make a statement on what marriage is. We got the government involved. Now the government has changed the definition of marriage, which is problematic. Because the church never should have had the government involved in what it is in the first place.
Matt Brown:Sure. For us as Christians, marriage is a spiritual union. It's a spirit it's a it's a worship service. Where before God, before our church, and our our our family and friends, we are declaring the two are becoming one flesh. And so if you're divorced, you know, don't I hope you don't crash your car while you're listening to this.
Matt Brown:We love you. God loves you.
Justin Pardee:Absolutely.
Matt Brown:But listen, it's evil. We all have evil in our lives. Just because I'm married doesn't mean I'm any less evil than you are. We all have evil in our lives. We all have sin in our lives, and we need to repent of this, and we need to ask for forgiveness.
Matt Brown:And and the good news is first John one nine, he is faithful and just to cleanse us of all, listen to this word, wickedness in our lives, if we confess our sins to him. And so, man, do that. And and and this weekend in church, cry, weep, and praise Jesus because he has his blood has covered your sin. And so, right, feel bad for a minute, and then just feel in love with Jesus because we all need to be forgiven by him. But Jesus is throwing this in the face of his religious accusers, I believe here.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. That makes sense. Mhmm.
Stephanie Schaefer:Alright. So he's gonna move on now and tell the story of the parable or a parable of the rich man and Lazarus, which just real quick, there's a rich man who has everything that he ever wanted, super blessed in his life. There's a poor man named Lazarus laying outside, suffering, sick, hurting, then Jesus tells the story of what happens when they both die. So first of all, is this a parable or is it a real story?
Justin Pardee:Because I know that Parable. Lazarus has a
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Says parable, but then I don't know why you wouldn't
Matt Brown:need So so here's here's why it's confusing. So that certainly, it seems to be a parable. What makes this parable unusual from any other parable in the Bible is Jesus uses a real name.
Justin Pardee:Is this his buddy Lazarus that he raised from the
Matt Brown:No. This is not his buddy Lazarus. So Yeah. So he did he he And we'll talk about why he used the name Lazarus. Well, I'll just throw it out now, so I don't forget.
Matt Brown:But the name Lazarus means blessed by God. So or helped by God,
Stephanie Schaefer:excuse God has helped.
Matt Brown:God has helped is is what it means. And so the name fits up perfectly because ultimately God helps Lazarus in the story. But, you know, Jesus, when he shares story, he uses extremes to make a point. Right? Unless you hate your mother and brother.
Matt Brown:He's trying to he's trying to rattle us so that he can move us. And so in the ancient world, the understanding is those who are rich are blessed by God. They're going to be blessed by God now, they're going to be blessed by God in eternity. And so it it gave rise to this sense of self righteousness. Well, God, I I'm such a good person that God has blessed me.
Matt Brown:And so poor people would feel extremely intimidated because they would say, oh, guy's this guy's loved by God. And then, you know, conversely, the poor person says, oh, I must have done something wrong. God hates me. I'm in judgment. And so what Jesus is doing, he's saying that, look, that's not the way God works.
Matt Brown:God actually loves the poor. And it's not that he doesn't hate the rich, it's just really really difficult for rich people to enter the kingdom of heaven because the truth is rich people don't need God on this earth like poor people need God on this earth. So poor people realize, I mean, they need God every day. They need God for bread every day. Whereas a wealthy person, they can exist on their own without God.
Matt Brown:They can make everything happen. They can do all of those things. They can't save themselves, but they're used to doing everything on their own. And that's why Jesus says it's easier for a camel to enter through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. And when he said that, the disciples were like, oh my gosh, who then can be saved?
Matt Brown:Because the thinking is, if rich people who are good people can't get into heaven, then how am I the lowly fisherman? How am I gonna get into heaven? And so so this is what I would say. This is a parable. Okay.
Matt Brown:I I don't believe that this is a real story. I think it's a parable, and I think it will cause much more ease as we navigate it. You know, thinking of this as a made up story. And what I mean by that is, it's a made up story to prove a very real point. So Jesus does this to prove a real point.
Matt Brown:So what it what what you shouldn't do is say, oh, well, I don't need to be concerned by this story. You should be very concerned. Because this story ultimately could be your story.
Justin Pardee:He's telling the story for a reason.
Matt Brown:Yeah.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So towards the end of well, I guess it's kind of the middle of the story. Verses 22 through 23, Jesus goes, finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead. So is Jesus talking about heaven and hell here?
Matt Brown:Yeah. So let's let's back up. So again, he's going on with the illustration. The rich man is buried, so he's honored in life. The poor man is not buried.
Justin Pardee:Oh, okay.
Matt Brown:So he's right, he's probably left in the field or thrown into a ditch. Probably would have been thrown into Gehenna. Oh, interesting. So Gehenna is the place, it's the local dump of Jerusalem, which is the word that Jesus uses for hell. So right, everyone's gonna know, oh, the the port the sick guy was be picked up by like whoever's job it was to pick up dead people in the city, and they're gonna throw him into Gehenna.
Matt Brown:But what's amazing is that's not what happens in the story, is the one who would have thought was going to go to hell, Gehenna, actually is carried by angels. So he's lifted up. And and the imagery is powerful. Right? His body because they're gonna think his body's not taken care of, his body's not loved, but it's lifted up by angels taking to the very bosom of Abraham.
Matt Brown:And so, you know, this is an unusual illustration, but what I think it is is a contemporary understanding of the fact that, you know, Abraham represents a type of heaven, an example of heaven. And so for us as Christians, this is problematic because we think of Saint Peter as the person who would be sitting in this role,
Justin Pardee:but Yeah. He hanged out at the Purse
Matt Brown:Yeah. Jesus I
Justin Pardee:couldn't have told that story. Sunday newspaper.
Matt Brown:Yeah. He couldn't have told that story, then because they wouldn't have understand that. They they don't Right? The people sitting around him don't understand the role of Peter yet, but they would have Peter understood
Stephanie Schaefer:wouldn't understood the voice
Justin Pardee:of Yeah. He's just a regular dude. Yeah. He's like, I'm getting a cloud to float on someday.
Stephanie Schaefer:Some pearly gates? Alright.
Justin Pardee:And what's a saint?
Matt Brown:So, you know, Abraham is somebody who is exonerated, and someone who is highly highly revered in their culture. And so, he uses this concept of, you know, kind of the great grandfather of our people. You know, he's the original Jew. Oh, Jay. You know, he's being he's being he's being carried into his arms.
Matt Brown:And so it's a picture of so so is it heaven and is it hell? Yes and no. What it is is it is the theological understanding and the teaching of Jesus that when you die, you will go to one of two places. There are two places that you can go. And so whether Jesus specifically means, you know, heaven for eternity and hell for eternity here, think is irrelevant.
Matt Brown:Because you know, he hasn't died on the cross yet. He hasn't paid the penalty for our sins yet. Right? That all changes post resurrection. So this is pre resurrection.
Matt Brown:And so maybe this is a picture of what death looked like before the resurrection of Christ. Remember, Peter says that he ascended into hell and preached to the spirits who were in prison? Preached the gospel. Mhmm. So so what Jesus is saying is he's what he's doing is he's saying there is there is an afterlife.
Matt Brown:A very very real afterlife. When you die, that is not it. So whether you go to heaven or whether you go to hell, you are going to one of two places. Life is not over. And you need to understand that.
Matt Brown:Jesus is teaching that when you die, life is not over.
Justin Pardee:Okay. So, while this rich guy is is in hell or whatever here, he is crying out. In verse 25, Abraham said to him, son, remember that during your lifetime, you had everything you wanted and Lazarus had nothing. So now, he is being here comforted and you are in anguish.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. So does somewhat like, why is the rich man in hell? And does that mean that someone like Lazarus got to go to heaven just because he was poor?
Matt Brown:Yeah. Right. And so so the reality is we don't know. This is a fictitious story that Jesus is teaching. He he doesn't, you know, he doesn't right.
Matt Brown:I mean, he's not teaching everything about theology. I mean, the only reason the the the poor man is going to go to heaven is because of his faith and trust in Jesus Christ, ultimately according to the gospel. Mhmm. He's just trying to flip culture up up on its head and say, you don't know. You think you know what's going to happen because you're wealthy or because you're poor, but what he's saying is, I'm here to mix it all up, and you don't know anything about what the next life is going to look like.
Matt Brown:And so remember, it's the upside down kingdom where the first or last, and the last shall be first. And so it's just this completely different thing, and he's really truly trying to mess with their minds. So I don't know if I answered that specifically enough.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Think so. Okay. So the rest of what's going on here in the story, basically, rich man kind of shouts out and he he's trying to get help. Right?
Justin Pardee:He says, please, father Abraham, send somebody to my father's house for I have five brothers and want him to warn them so they don't end up in this place of torment. And Abraham says, Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read about what they want. The rich man replies, no, father Abraham. But if someone sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.
Justin Pardee:And then to close the chapter, Abraham says, if they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead. This sounds like Jesus is just foreshadowing.
Matt Brown:Yeah. So he goes from storytelling to predicting the future, and so there's a shift here. You know, so this fictitious story ends with something that specifically is going to happen. And so what he's trying to say here is, right, every single human being is marching towards an eternal destiny. And so that's the other thing that we need to understand here is, you know, Jesus' version of hell is that it's eternal and it does not end.
Matt Brown:And so you will live forever with God, or you will live forever apart from God. And so the a the bosom of Abraham, right, and and it almost I mean, so you say the bosom of Abraham, what does that mean? It means closed intimacy. So this this man who is excluded in his whole life, never cared for, never loved, is the closest to God's heart. And the person who experienced all this love and and all this, you know, all the blessings of life, right, he is as far apart.
Matt Brown:And there's this chasm that separates them, this this this impassable chasm. And so if you don't know what a chasm is, it's like the Grand Canyon, it's a there's a great chasm. Yeah. And what it means is there's no way that you can get from one side to the other. Your your your position is your position.
Justin Pardee:The end of Force Awakens.
Stephanie Schaefer:I was gonna say that big earthquake in there.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Kylo Ren and
Matt Brown:Rey. Right. Right. So A Force chasm. And so what what we need to do is and again, this is why we have to share the gospel with our friends.
Matt Brown:This is why we have to share the gospel to ourselves. We have to preach it to ourselves. We have to be very very serious about what we do at church because, you know, we live in a world now here's what's bizarre about about modern life is we seem incapable of punishing anyone for the decisions they make. You know, like I was reading in the paper about a couple years ago. Remember that guy went to that summer camp up in Finland, and he had an a k 47 or whatever.
Matt Brown:Killed like 75 kids. Right? Like murder it was incredible. Murdered all these. He's a Nazi, you know, some crazy Well, found out what happened to him.
Matt Brown:So that that country doesn't have the death penalty. Right? And people are like, oh, he he has a three bedroom apartment in prison with like TV, VCR movies, and all this stuff. And he he's complaining that it's it's inhumane because he's not allowed to have interaction with other human beings. And the reason they don't want him to have interaction is because he's crazy, and he will, you know, preach the gospel, so to speak, of Nazism to the other inmates, and they don't want him interacting with anybody.
Matt Brown:But he is suing in court. Again, and it's just like, why is this guy even alive? I mean, it's just crazy to me that in our world, it's immoral now to punish people for their ridiculous crimes. It blows my mind. And so we have a hard time now with a God who punishes people for their crimes.
Matt Brown:And and and I it just I just don't understand this. And again, so the narrative in this the underlying narrative in this whole thing is make sure that your values are aligned with God's values and not the world's values. So here's here's where the world right now disagrees with God. The world considers it immoral to punish people for their sins.
Justin Pardee:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:I mean, about all the movies now. Right? We don't even have evil characters in movies anymore. There's always a backstory. Yeah.
Matt Brown:They're They're they're misunderstood. You know, they used to just be evil. Right? Nobody cared why the wicked witch of the West was evil. She just was.
Matt Brown:Now there's a backstory And she sings, and she has a Broadway play. Right?
Justin Pardee:Yeah.
Stephanie Schaefer:She's totally misunderstood.
Matt Brown:She was misunderstood. And so, we have to have all of this sympathy now for these people that right? Historically, it's just like, no, you're good, you're bad, and and we move on, and we can deal with that. And now, we can't deal with that, and we we judge God as immoral, because he will hold people accountable for their choices. And so this rich guy, he didn't care at all about Lazarus.
Matt Brown:Lazarus is clearly suffering. Clearly suffering. Part of Yeah. His issue and part of his sickness was nobody cared for him. Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So think about the story of the good Samaritan. Right? The Samaritan finds this guy beat up, you know, heals his wounds, puts oil on his head, and ministers to him. Man, Lazarus sees this guy every day. I mean, the rich guy sees excuse me, sees Lazarus every day.
Matt Brown:He knows exactly who he is. He has a relationship with him, and that's why in the story, he calls out to him and says, man, send Lazarus. Come back to to serve me. He still doesn't get it. He's not repentant.
Matt Brown:He doesn't understand that he blew it. And so he's suffering because of the choices that he made in his life. And so Jesus, here's the gospel of Jesus, you will be held accountable for the choices that you make in life, unless you repent of your sins, and you place your faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and his blood will cover your sins. Otherwise, you're going to stand before God and be held accountable for everything you did. And here's the thing that's scary.
Matt Brown:The selfishness of your heart will be revealed, of my heart will be revealed on the day of judgment. And praise God for Jesus. Because the truth is that the the moral difference between me and this rich man is much slimmer than I would like it to be.
Justin Pardee:Oh, man.
Matt Brown:Because I am about myself, about my kids. You know, people say things like this. Well, if God's so loving, why is there why is there famine? Why why is there starvation? Well, that's not God's issue.
Matt Brown:That's a selfishness issue among human beings.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:We don't share. We don't You know, why do we pay taxes? Because people don't share. Mhmm. Government puts a gun to you and says, right, you're gonna pay these taxes so we can because people don't do it.
Matt Brown:And that's the thing is that's the human heart. Greed is something that's inherent to a sinful heart. And so we just have to be very very careful here. And so here's the meaning of the story. All of Luke 16, there is an afterlife.
Matt Brown:Be ready. Be ready.
Justin Pardee:Okay.
Matt Brown:The shrewd manager is trying to prepare for a change of life. You and I need to prepare for a change of life. And oh, by the way, life is going to be very different. It's going to be upside down. Rich people may be in hell, and poor people may be in heaven.
Matt Brown:So so so you better figure out how to navigate the change from this life to the next life. And so, you know, just like a baby, you know, in a mother's womb, life is very very different in the womb from when the baby comes out outside of the womb. It's it's it's incredibly different. So too will be physical life from eternal life. So Jesus is the only one who knows what the next life looks like.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm.
Matt Brown:So he's telling us, you need to be ready. So again, how do I ensure that I am in the bosom of Abraham, and not in hell? Okay? And not in the place of torment and judgment. The only way that you can guarantee that is by repenting of your sins, and placing your faith and trust in Jesus Christ.
Matt Brown:Now ultimately, every human being will stand before the throne of Jesus, and Jesus can do what he wants. He can do what he wants. He has earned the right to forgive who he forgives and to condemn who he condemns. He has earned that right, and he has authority. The only guarantee I have of my salvation is whoever believes in him, he would give them the right to become children of God.
Matt Brown:And so I know that. I have security in, I know that I've repented, and I know in whom I've trusted. And I've trusted in Jesus. And so I don't have to be afraid of that day. Where John says, right, perfect love casts out all fear.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. I don't have to be afraid of the day of judgment, because the love of Christ will protect me from from His wrath on that day. So so if you're listening to this, and you're in small group, just know we may live in a world that can't judge people. God does not have that problem. He can judge, and he can judge righteously, and he will judge forever.
Matt Brown:Forever. So and that is from Genesis to Revelation. God will hold us accountable for the lives we live. And you may not like it, but it's biblical.
Justin Pardee:You were right last week. Luke chapter 16 was thick. Yes.
Stephanie Schaefer:Yeah. Thick. There's like so much here, and I think we we covered a lot, and I think probably we have inspired a lot more questions.
Matt Brown:Yeah. And if they have more questions, tell them to send them in. And like I said, this is one of those chapters where it's confusing. And and and hopefully, I've provided some clarity for it, but but even scholars disagree. And then some people throw their hands up in the air because they don't know what's happening here.
Matt Brown:I think I've done a pretty good job of trying to explain it, but Yeah. You know, I may If
Stephanie Schaefer:you have questions, if you wanna learn more, if you wanna dive deeper into any part of this, go to sandalschurch.com/thedebrief. Send in your questions. We would love to answer those and keep this conversation going.
Justin Pardee:Absolutely. And before we get going, next week we'll be back, course, Luke chapter 17. Before we leave, pastor Matt, we can't get out of here without your thoughts on a beautiful inspirational quote.
Stephanie Schaefer:Mhmm. This week we've got, if being good isn't working, try being outrageous.
Justin Pardee:Where'd you find that? The internet.
Matt Brown:Yeah. I'm pretty sure that the whoever wrote that's going to hell, so don't do that. Try being outrageous. Being good isn't working, try being outrageous. Outrageous.
Matt Brown:Yeah. Well, the Bible says never grow tired of doing good. Never. Never ever ever. So apparently, two co hosts may be the rich man.
Matt Brown:I don't know.
Justin Pardee:Internet. No. I'm we're not I'm
Stephanie Schaefer:gonna throw Justin on the bus. This is totally his I'm just I'm
Justin Pardee:just to do this. Yeah. So that's why we're bringing it here, man.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. Yeah.
Justin Pardee:I would say if you go tired of beer being good, try chocolate.
Matt Brown:Mhmm. So one more thing, let me say this little quick advertisement. So my buddy David Platt is gonna be Oh, yes. Next Wednesday night. I would love to see you guys
Stephanie Schaefer:It is for tomorrow night.
Justin Pardee:Oh, yes. Exactly.
Matt Brown:Is it free? Yes. It's free. Yeah. So it's free.
Matt Brown:So you can come, and so he's coming on out here, and he wrote Radical, amazing book, amazing guy. He's coming to our church. So don't miss. We were gonna have him speak on the weekend, but that didn't work out. So he's gonna be here on Wednesday night.
Matt Brown:So don't miss. It's your one shot. Get a sitter. I don't think we'll have childcare, so get a sitter. But get here, you don't wanna miss, as he talks about God's heart for the nations.
Matt Brown:And why? Because people are headed for an eternity apart from Christ, and this rich guy story is real. That this this is really some people's story, and how tragic. And we want people's story to be like Lazarus. We want people to be helped by God, and and ultimately to be saved by God.
Matt Brown:So don't miss David Platt tomorrow night here at the main campus on Palmareta. I'd love to see you here.
Justin Pardee:Hey, I I just looked online. It's actually not free. You have to bring chips and guacamole.
Stephanie Schaefer:And just drop them off with a debrief crew.
Justin Pardee:Yeah. Exactly. Anybody with debrief very shrewd. Yeah.