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Claudia Christian is an actress, author, and leading advocate for evidence-based approaches to alcohol use disorder. She’s best known for her roles on Babylon 5, NYPD Blue, and 24, as well as for her widely viewed TEDx talk on alcohol recovery, which has been watched by millions of people worldwide.
In this conversation, Claudia shares why being told to “just quit drinking” never worked for her, despite years of trying. We talk about cravings, relapse cycles, and why willpower alone often isn’t enough to change drinking habits. Claudia explains how naltrexone helped quiet the mental and physical noise around alcohol, and what most people misunderstand about medication, side effects, and consistency.We also go beyond the biology.
Claudia reflects on trauma, learned coping patterns, and why the deeper work matters once cravings begin to fade. This episode is about expanding options, reducing harm, and offering a more realistic and compassionate way to change your relationship with alcohol.
CONNECT WITH SUNNYSIDE:
In this conversation, Claudia shares why being told to “just quit drinking” never worked for her, despite years of trying. We talk about cravings, relapse cycles, and why willpower alone often isn’t enough to change drinking habits. Claudia explains how naltrexone helped quiet the mental and physical noise around alcohol, and what most people misunderstand about medication, side effects, and consistency.We also go beyond the biology.
Claudia reflects on trauma, learned coping patterns, and why the deeper work matters once cravings begin to fade. This episode is about expanding options, reducing harm, and offering a more realistic and compassionate way to change your relationship with alcohol.
CONNECT WITH SUNNYSIDE:
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We now offer Sunnyside Med, a new program that provides access to compounded naltrexone, a medication that can reduce alcohol cravings at the brain level, offering a more clinical pathway for people who need it. Sunnyside Med is a complete, holistic approach to help you drink less or quit, including coaching, community, habit change, education, and more to help you create longterm change while the medication does its work.
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Journey to the Sunnyside is a top 1% podcast, reaching over 500,000 listeners every week. It’s your guide to exploring mindful living with alcohol—whether you're cutting back, moderating, or thinking about quitting.
While Sunnyside helps you reduce your drinking, this podcast goes further, diving into topics like mindful drinking, sober curiosity, moderation, and full sobriety. Through real stories, expert insights, and science-backed strategies, we help you find what actually works for your journey.
Hosted by Mike Hardenbrook, a #1 best-selling author and neuroscience enthusiast, the show is dedicated to helping people transform their relationship with alcohol—without shame, judgment, or rigid rules.
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Our guest today is Claudia Christian, an actress, author, and leading advocate for evidence based approaches to alcohol use disorder. She's best known for her roles on Babylon five, NYPD Blue, 24, and one of my all time favorites, Quantum Leap. Her TEDx talk on alcohol recovery has been watched by millions of people worldwide, including myself many years back. In this conversation, Claudia shares why being told just quit drinking never really worked for her despite years of trying. We talk about cravings, relapse cycles, and why willpower alone often isn't enough to change drinking habits.
Speaker 1:Claudia explains why naltrexone helped quiet the mental and physical noise around alcohol and what most people misunderstand about medication, side effects, and consistency. We also go way beyond biology. Claudia reflects on trauma, learned coping patterns, and why the deeper work matters once cravings begin to fade. This episode is about expanding options, reducing harm, and offering more realistic and compassionate ways to change your relationship with alcohol. Hey, Claudia.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming on today.
Speaker 2:My pleasure.
Speaker 1:Let's just jump in with a little bit of an introduction. Can you tell us who you are and what led you to start helping people change their drinking? I know it's a whopper right there.
Speaker 2:No. That's okay. I'm Claudia Christian, and I had struggled with alcohol use disorder myself for many years. Tried everything, rehab and and talk therapy and AA, all everything that was available. I just kept relapsing due to cravings, both physical and mental, and the insidiousness of a compulsive disorder of the brain, which causes you to believe that you don't have a problem if you have eight months of sobriety under your belt.
Speaker 2:So you have a drink. And that leads to the snowballs. So after years and years of frustration, I stumbled upon targeted use of naltrexone in 2009, and it was so unbelievably impactful in a positive way in my life that I just wanted to scream it from the rooftops. I could not imagine not advocating this method after discovering it. So by 2010, I believe I was already informally coaching people.
Speaker 2:I was reaching out globally. People had my cell phone number. I was working on writing a book and creating a nonprofit organization to help people. And, of course, I made a documentary a couple years later. So I really dove in headfirst because I realized that there was such a gap in the recovery community, the recovery business model that just didn't exist where we we had these opiate antagonists and we weren't utilizing them in any way, shape, or form.
Speaker 2:And it was it was deadly, and it was malpractice in my opinion. I mean, in the beginning of my journey, I was refused naltrexone by three doctors. And and for me, that that constituted malpractice. I mean, I I I that is a lifesaving medication that is nonaddictive. It's nobody's ever overdosed on it.
Speaker 2:No one's ever died from it. It's absurd that they're not prescribing these as the first line of defense and harm reduction and also for people who want to remain abstinent. So that was the impetus behind me devoting fifteen, sixteen years of my life to helping other people and advocating for this this treatment was just anger. I think anger at the recovery community, anger at doctors for being lazy, for not researching these these medications, for not using these medications more often. I mean, by the time a patient comes into your office and says, I have a problem, you should be on high alert because it takes so much for an individual to admit that and for them to come in and be vulnerable and then have you say, oh, just go to an AA meeting.
Speaker 2:What a lazy response. Or, you know, just use a 12 step community or just quit drinking. I mean, that is just that is barbaric. I'm sorry. And and it's up to the medical professionals to educate themselves as to what is available.
Speaker 2:There are multiple medications used off label for alcohol use disorder, substance use disorders that work for people. So try things. I mean, this is one of the leading causes of death in this country. So get your act together, medical professionals. Learn about these life saving medications.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean, so I love all that, and your life's work is meaningful. I mean, it saves lives. And, you know, you say mad about, you know, the doctors not being able to prescribe it or being informed. What about what about the what about the viewpoint that's now coming to light in, like, why we're having conversations now isn't it's not just like drink less and it's not just like go to AA that there's other options and there's actually a way out that doesn't require an all or nothing abstinence forever sort of model.
Speaker 2:Yes. I mean, that you you know, I I was having people in their teens reach out to me. How am I gonna tell an 18 year old that you can never touch alcohol again for the rest of your life? It's it's it's ridiculous. And and with society societal pressures on individuals to drink and the constant burial of information like the global burden studies that came out that said, you know, ethanol is toxic to a human being.
Speaker 2:They keep burying all these studies and all this information because the alcohol lobbying companies are so powerful. The alcohol companies are so powerful, and they're targeting individuals. So how realistically is a young person going to traverse through life without touching alcohol? And if they have that genetic predisposition and they engage in the behavior and they develop alcohol use disorder very young, why not give them an opportunity to be able to be safe? You know, this is the thing is do you want your son or daughter to be in a situation where they could be raped if they're if they're, you know, if they're under the influence?
Speaker 2:No. So why not give them a medication so they can control their drinking? Because they're going to drink. Most kids are. Most 20 year olds are.
Speaker 2:It's very, very rare that I find the unicorn that's quit drinking in their twenties and never touched it again. I mean, that's that's that's very, very unusual. So in order for safety I mean, I wanted to get this on college campuses. For safety, it's your safety pill. It's like putting a condom on when you go out to a party.
Speaker 2:Take a Naltrexone. That's what I call it, the condom for for drinking. You know? It's like if you wanna go and you know that there's gonna be risky behavior, then take take a Naltrexone.
Speaker 1:Mean, you're definitely not gonna be hanging off, like, the balcony if you take a Naltrexone and then go out. So
Speaker 2:I see what you're You're not gonna try to fly off of a building or or get yourself in a position with, you know, eight or 10 people of the opposite sex that are surrounding you. I mean, you know, that's the real you know, sexual abuse during, while people are under the influence is is rampant. And and that's something that I that will scar an individual for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 1:I don't wanna go off topic, but it is something that you said there that brings me back to my my youth, actually. So I got, like, a minor in possession. They made me go to, like, key meetings. I had to go to a set number, and, you know, I probably did drink too much at that time. I was already obviously you know, you don't know all my history, but, of course, I have my I have my own struggle that lasted longer than I'd like to admit, and it didn't really develop until adulthood, but it back in at 18, I did all those AE meetings, and, yeah, AE will ruin your drinking at that age, and I didn't want to really drink, but at the same time, I was like, I'm 18.
Speaker 1:I'm about to go into college. I wanna join a fraternity. Like, am I really gonna not drink, like, during this period? Right? And having no no other option in my point of vision was either don't drink or just go all in and be youthful and figure it out later.
Speaker 1:You know? And so, like, you saying these things brings up a conversation that I didn't I don't think even existed at that time.
Speaker 2:Well, the sad thing is is that these medications, the opioid antagonists, did exist, and they were, you know, even approved by the FDA in the in the late nineties. I mean, it's absurd that we're not using them more and that we haven't used them more for the past thirty years. You know? Think about that. And and, I mean, the fact that I went in 2009 and requested it from multiple medical professionals and was denied because they thought they were They that I was asking for an opiate.
Speaker 2:I mean, come on. How obtuse is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It it's an opiate blocker. I mean, it it really is it really shows you that that, you know, even though substance use disorders are rampant, that that, you know, people have to get their act together. They have to educate themselves. But these these options have been available. They just you know, the the the society believes that it's one thing or the other, that there's no such thing as harm reduction.
Speaker 2:Harm reduction is a label that is fairly new to most individuals. When you tell an an alcoholic to drink, they totally counterintuitive. They don't understand it, and they won't take the time to actually educate themselves. My documentary, one little pill, was designed exactly for that, to educate people about the science behind pharmacological extinction using an opiate antagonist. So if somebody spent fifty five minutes watching that that film, they could educate themselves.
Speaker 2:Or if they read one of the multiple books that are out, they could educate themselves. But people people are lazy inherently, and and they they just believe that if you you know, once you touch it because the 12 step stigma that's attached to it, if you touch it, you're off to the racetracks again. And and that's been the common belief system for a hun a hund over a 100 years. But to me, you know, and once again, I'm not dissing AA. It works for some people.
Speaker 2:But to read from a 100 year old book from a a man, you know, who who spearheaded this movement in The United States Of America who died begging for whiskey and who was trying LSD for his own alcohol use disorder and and mega dosing niacin. I mean, Bill w would have loved naltrexone. That's the thing is we we now have an option that's science based, and he was somebody who believed in science. So for AA not to support people taking medications in order to either control, reduce, or stop drinking alcohol to me is BS. I mean, you're standing in the situation where you have millions of people devoted to these daily meetings, and you have the opportunity as a as a group to say, you're welcome if you take medications to reduce cravings.
Speaker 2:But they don't. And that to me is another thing. It's like, what power you potentially have to change the world instead of me, you know, one actor screaming for the past sixteen years. You know? I mean, they have the opportunity to actually educate people and to and to make a a a huge shift in in the recovery of of millions of people worldwide.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I think you said it there. Education is key, and I also think that that's part of the broader conversation that we're having today and that naltrexone and medication isn't reserved for what we stereotypically think of as somebody with AUD or alcoholism or whatever label you wanna throw on it and which leads me into something really interesting to comment on that you have talked about in your TED talk, which is clarifying a little bit around, like, what AUD is. It it isn't always a daily drinker, all day drinker. There's so many other ways to define that, which, by the way, I want to say this to you.
Speaker 1:You I watched your video when it first came out, and I was making a lot of changes at that time. And, actually, you inspired me to try naltrexone nine years ago or somewhere
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:Right about that time.
Speaker 2:Lovely.
Speaker 1:And it did work for me, but I didn't have the education on how to take it, how to use it, how long, or any of those things. And it only works if you take it. So Yeah. You know, I sort of, like, I I was doing good, and then I wasn't doing good, which is part of the AUD definition that you're talking about, this ups and downs. Eventually, I found my way out, but it but I definitely could've it could've been so much easier.
Speaker 1:I see now looking back had I had a little bit more of direction. And, also, I mean, I gotta blame myself for a little bit of not follow through on things, but I I saw I saw and felt the power of that, but I also just wanna say how impactful your TED Talk was because that was an early narrative. Like, I don't think I saw any other ones about that, at least to the impact that you comment commented on on that video.
Speaker 2:That was 2,016, and I'm I'm pleased about a few things in that talk, and I'm displeased with myself for other things. I was really all about, oh, this is biological. This is biological, which is so ironic, of course, because I had relapsed on TSM. Why did I relapse on TSM? Because I didn't do the inner work of recovery.
Speaker 2:And and that is something that that I was eschewing out of you know, I hate this word because it's so stigmatized, and it's used in rehab facilities all the time. Denial. I hate it. But but I was denying that a human being had experienced trauma, and I had not dealt with that trauma. I thought I was just stronger than that.
Speaker 2:You know? My mom lived through World War two. My dad lived through military school at the age of five and abusive, you know, this and this. And so I should be able to put up with a rape and a sibling dying. I mean, what the heck?
Speaker 2:That's nothing. You know? It's like these things that you tell yourself, this story that you tell yourself, chin up. You know? Have a cup of tea.
Speaker 2:You know? Just get on with it. That is not the way we're built as humans. And that comfort seeking mechanism, first time you identify alcohol as a comfort. And and that is something that your brain now identifies that as that will make it better.
Speaker 2:That glass of wine will make things better, and it's very difficult to unlearn that. What the medication does is it helps you reduce and stop the cravings, the physical and mental cravings, and that is a godsend because then you can figure out the why. Why did I rely on alcohol? You can even trace it back to the first time you were bullied, and you went and got a beer, and you felt better. First time you went to a party, and you had a Jack and Daniels, and suddenly you were the life of the party, and you felt comfortable in your own skin.
Speaker 2:You know? First time a boy or girl broke up with you, and you had a six pack of beer with your friends, and you felt better. You know? All of that that those those memories and responses that you learned, that is a learned behavior. I equate alcohol with comfort or with a solution, with a reward at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:All of those things you learned, and you can unlearn them. And the medication helps you, but the medication is a tool. And in my TEDx talk, I neglected to really focus on what I've learned since then in my own behavior, my own recovery, and in the multiple people that I've coached throughout the years is that everybody who drinks or uses a substance to excess has pain. And it's up to me to find that pain and to understand that pain and to help that person acknowledge that pain and to move away from the pain by by by really looking at it and understanding it and understanding every single person who was involved with that pain. And and that is called deep reflection.
Speaker 2:And when people talk about doing the work, they make it sound so daunting. I found it probably the most beautiful part of recovery. It wasn't the popping of the pill and waiting the hour. That that was a great tool, But it was sitting in my own self and thinking, was I drowning myself in red wine? Why, Claudia?
Speaker 2:That's not you. You're happy. Why what what caused you to seek oblivion and to quiet those thoughts? And what were those thoughts? That that is recovery.
Speaker 2:That is recovering from life, recovering from these traumatic events. And I think if you do that in conjunction with a medication that stops the cravings so you're not constantly go, I gotta have a drink. I gotta have a drink. I mean, I used to sit in AA meetings thinking, oh my god. Okay.
Speaker 2:After I leave here, I could get a drink. I gotta drink. Drink. Drink. Drink.
Speaker 2:You know? It was this constant chatter in my head. So how am I supposed to pay attention? It was just annoying. Everything was annoying because I had cravings.
Speaker 2:So once those cravings quieted, I could focus on on on the real recovery. And and I think that's the beautiful part of it, and I wish that would have been in that talk. But the good thing about that talk and the 5,000,000 plus people who saw it is they now learned those words. Naltrexone, opiate blocker, opiate antagonist, the targeted use of it, pharmacological extinction, alcohol use disorder. And as you said, alcohol use disorder can range from anybody who's simply uncomfortable with the amount they're drinking to a full blown physically dependent individual.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more on everything you said there, but I'm also gonna play a little bit of devil's advocate to the update as a marketer, as an Internet guy, and I still think that you delivered it perfectly as the lead in to grab people's attention to know that there's probably something that's biological and and thinking in a way that they never have than to reach out and get the help that they need because they see a new path and get informed on the ladder. So I personally, I think you still delivered it, like, on the money. Hey.
Speaker 2:Hey. Listen. I'm so grateful to the London Business School for giving me that opportunity and making me keynote speaker because, boy, that that talk really has saved a lot of lives. And I and I'm so grateful for them for allowing me the space to discuss this thing that at the time was pretty weird for people, very counterintuitive. You know?
Speaker 2:I'm telling people out there, take a pill, wait an hour, and drink alcohol. But now look at the difference between then and now where you have all these telemedicine companies cropping up and and and, you know, companies treating thousands and thousands of people with targeted use of naltrexone and nalmefene. So it's it's we've made a huge leap. We have a tremendous amount to go. We have a a lot of work to do, and it's hard.
Speaker 2:You know? I I stepped down from my 501C3 in January because we couldn't afford to pay me my stipend. You know? And legally, as a CEO founder, you you you you kinda have to step away from the role if you're not being paid. So it it's it's a little heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:You know, donations just disappeared. I always laugh and say people would rather support baby turtles than alcoholics. You know? And and yeah. And it's but it's true.
Speaker 2:You know, they'd rather give their money to a cat and dog foundation than actual human beings who are struggling and just need this generic inexpensive medication. And they need support. You know? That's one thing that we really, really want to provide is people with low cost support, which we're doing now, and and training people and just getting getting a really solid sense of community as well, which I I love seeing all these Sinclair Method communities that are cropping up now, groups of people meeting every week. It's just it it's it has grown a lot.
Speaker 2:It just it needs it needs a a bigger name than me behind it, and that's been always my dream is that I could get one of these big a listers to use it. You know? Ben Affleck in his ninth round of rehab. Come on, Ben. Naltrexone.
Speaker 2:Get out there and talk about it. You know?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that the the, you know, the narrative is, like I mentioned earlier, is really broadening and that people are seeing that this is not reserved for for, like, the deepest, darkest, most difficult scenarios, that this is for people that are struggling, that don't need to struggle the way they have. They don't need to keep making the same mistakes because there are different things. Like, when your biology is fighting you, it's hard to do to address all the things that your why that you talked about because you're so stuck in your head on these other things battling that. You can't move on to the next thing at times.
Speaker 2:Yep. Yeah. It's it was really difficult even for me to to pay attention in therapy because I was craving all the time. I I was either thinking that I can't drink or when can I drink? I'm not allowed to drink.
Speaker 2:You know? It was so alcohol took up space in my head even when I was abstinent, which I think is one of the reasons why people, you know, go to AA meetings for forty years is because the those cravings aren't gone. I mean, it it is miraculous how much time and space I have, you know, since being on the Sinclair method and also since quitting drinking altogether. It's it's just you it's a completely different world. You realize what that compulsive disorder does.
Speaker 2:It's comparable to bulimia, anorexia, or OCD. You know? As a kid, when I I was a counter, I had obsessive compulsive disorder for a few years in my childhood where I had to count everything. And that's very much like alcohol use disorder. It's just always in your head.
Speaker 2:You can't walk in a room and not count the windows and the this and the that. So you're always your head is always filled with something. Well, you just replace that with cravings for somebody suffering from a food, you know, disorder. Like, you know, all they think of is food all day. Alcohol, all you think of is drinking all day long.
Speaker 2:OCD, you think of washing your hands all day long. I mean, it's those are those are disorders of the brain that are debilitating because you have no space to do anything else other than count your calories or think about when you're gonna throw up your food
Speaker 1:or
Speaker 2:you know, it's it's it's overwhelming. And I feel deep, deep compassion and empathy for people who are suffering because I've suffered from not one, not two, but three of those things. And they they it was and there there is such a profound sense of relief when that noise is gone, and you can just breathe and be yourself and do your work and create and be free. So I I I'm still as passionate regardless of whether I'm spearheading my nonprofit. I'm as passionate as ever because I know there are so many people out there still struggling.
Speaker 2:And so I I want them to live a good life. I want them to get rid of the noise in their head and to and to, you know, have deep meaningful relationships and to to be happy within themselves.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Everyone deserves that. Everybody deserves a chance to recover.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And like you said, it's difficult for a lot of I don't remember what the analogy was. People would rather donate or give something than than gain compassion to somebody with AUD because
Speaker 2:More money.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because it's so hard. People just it's so hard for some people to understand it unless you've been in it. And, like, the shortest answer I usually give to people that are like, I don't get it. I was just like, look.
Speaker 1:Those people are in pain. They're not drinking because they're having fun. They're drinking because they're in pain right now, and it's causing pain, and it's a cycle that they can't step out of. And
Speaker 2:Actually, beyond that, it's more than just pain. It's it's a compulse it's a compulsion. It's a nonlogical compulsion. How do you explain how an individual gambles away their home in Vegas or puts up their Yeah. Real estate or their car.
Speaker 2:How do you explain how a woman will sell her baby for a hit of heroin? That's not logical. That is completely illogical. It goes against everything that a human being is born with and what human beings stand for. And that means there's something profoundly wrong with that individual.
Speaker 2:It's not a logical thing. I didn't sit there and say, you know what? I'm gonna ruin my life. Drink some more wine. That sounds like a damn good idea.
Speaker 2:Or I didn't sit there as a kid and say, you know, when I grow up, I really wanna have an alcohol use disorder. It sounds like a bull. I'm gonna spend all my money on booze and hide out in my house and sleep all day. Whoo. That sounds great.
Speaker 2:You know? I mean
Speaker 1:Right?
Speaker 2:It's not logical, and people make it seem like it's a choice. You know? Well, just stop drinking. Well, that's helpful. So why don't you stop breathing air?
Speaker 1:I didn't think of that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just stop breathing. Just see how long that lasts or stop eating. And let's see how long you last for that because that is what a compulsive disorder of the brain is. It's it's it's it's guiding you.
Speaker 2:You can see yourself outside your body going into the liquor store again, and you're thinking, what am I doing? But that the addiction becomes bigger than you. That's what you know, I keep telling people. I tell my clients, that lizard, that that bastard in your brain, which is addiction, wants you to be naked with a paper bag and a bottle in that paper bag lying in a gutter somewhere. That's that's all it wants from you.
Speaker 2:It just wants you destitute and alone because then it has you. And and if you think about that every time you take a drink, you know, this thing wants to own you. It wants you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It wants to be your lover, your best friend, everything. It that's kinda creepy. You know? Kind of insidious. I look at it now, you know, not to sound like a crazy version, but I look at now as I'm like, that's the work of the devil.
Speaker 2:You know? When people make that this this cheap, horrible, you know, rat rotgut, you know, alcohol that they sell to the masses. You know? They're
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:There's only one reason that it's like it's to suppress what's beautiful about human beings.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's it's so true. Right? So true. Especially oh, that gives me chills just thinking about what
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, takes
Speaker 1:I I like. But yeah.
Speaker 2:Just think. It takes away everything that it it takes away your sparkle, your creativity, your love of yourself, takes away your power, takes away your ability to cognitive thinking, critical thinking, takes away your confidence, takes away your looks, takes away your life, your health,
Speaker 1:relationships. I say it steals my magic.
Speaker 2:Steals your yeah. I call it the sparkle. So I can tell when somebody yeah.
Speaker 1:Magic magic for me is either spiritual or insights or personality or, like, a bill just all the best parts of me, I guess, is why I call it that. So I I
Speaker 2:I does. Percent. And it blurs you. You know? It blurs an individual.
Speaker 2:Suddenly, they even their face becomes blurred. You know? It's it's a it's a hard thing, and I don't you know? I I wish that there was more community in the world because I think the reason why people drink alone in their houses is is they're either lonely or bored, and that's that's a lack of community.
Speaker 1:Well, talk to me a little bit about this the Sinclair method that you work with because there's a couple different ways to use naltrexone. So I'd love to get, you know, how you've used it, how you've talked about it, and then what you know about, you know, maybe daily adherence is out there as well. So I'd love to just for anybody listening that doesn't know the Sinclair method to understand that and and just as a whole on how to take naltrexone.
Speaker 2:So I think that naltrexone has two really great uses, and that is to reduce and stop the cravings, both mental and mental and physical, and also to maintain abstinence for people who still have cravings even after going, getting sober, getting the daily use, I would tell people that if they're still struggling with cravings and their goal is to not drink any alcohol at all and they've managed to get sober, and now they just want something to keep them sober, you can take Naltrexone daily. But what I would what I would advise, and they should talk to their medical professional, is to not take it as prescribed first thing in the morning. Because if you take it first thing in the morning first of all, most people don't crave alcohol first thing in the morning. They usually crave later in the day. They're used to drinking in the evening.
Speaker 2:And you wanna get your workout in, and you wanna get your your physical activity and your coffee and all that stuff. So I would take it later in the day if I was a daily naltrexone taker. I would I would take it in the late afternoon so it wouldn't affect my sleep, but also because it would then help me get through the evenings, which is, you know, traditionally when a person would drink alcohol. So that's the the adjustment that I would make from what the norm is. Most doctors say, here.
Speaker 2:Take this every morning. And to me, it's like, why would you take it in the morning when you're blocking those things? You're you're blocking the endorphins from your workout and your morning and your your day at work and your interaction with human beings and all that. So once again, that that's the daily. And that should help reduce or stop cravings for alcohol.
Speaker 2:That works for people. I know that it's worked for individuals. I know people who've been on it for many years. The only thing that I worry about with those individuals is that they don't have the opportunity to do a washout of this opiate blocker in their system and then really, you know, get their dopamine system functioning at its optimal level. But I think it's it it that's you know, staying on it is better than drinking heavily.
Speaker 2:So if it's working for you to take it daily, that's fantastic. Targeted use of naltrexone, naltrexone, otherwise known as the Sinclair method named after doctor John David Sinclair, who discovered, he was studying a a breed of rats that were bred specifically to be alcoholic rats. And he was using opiate antagonists on these rats and noticed that it decreased their desire to drink, and they would start pushing the levers for food or water instead of alcohol. So this is how pharmacological extinction. It's also how the alcohol deprivation effect was discovered.
Speaker 2:What he discovered and what we now know is that a lot of people when they do dry January or they go to rehab and they're in this honeymoon period of sobriety, what happens is they then go through what's known now as the alcohol deprivation effect where the brain wants nothing but ethanol ethanol. And so when the person gets that taste of alcohol again, they're off to the racetracks worse than how they were drinking before rehab or before ten years of AA or, you know, so or before the detox. They are actually drinking heavier. And that's what happens to a lot of people. They relapse, and they end up drinking heavier than they did before.
Speaker 2:That's the alcohol deprivation effect. So Sinclair discovered these you know, the the the alcohol deprivation effect, and he discovered targeted use of an opiate antagonist. And what that means is one would target the behavior that they wish to decrease or stop. In this case, it's alcohol. So this also works, by the way, for gambling.
Speaker 2:If people who have a gambling issue, they can look into targeted use of naltrexone or nalmefene for that as well. But we're talking about alcohol. So you would target the alcohol. What that means is you would, you know, go through your day, and a craving would come up. And you'd have to ask yourself, is this a craving or a trigger?
Speaker 2:You know, did somebody make me angry? Is this an emotional response, or is it really a physical craving or a mental craving? In other words, is it not going away? Once you determine, yes. I'm absolutely craving because this thought just keeps coming around about having a nice cold beer, then you would take the tablet, and you would wait an hour.
Speaker 2:And you would take that tablet preferably with food. It's really important. Not just because of potential side effects, but because it just metabolizes better with food. And, also, because the habit of drinking on an empty stomach is really bad for your organs, and it's also a clear sign to me that the person is just looking to get high. They're not having a nice glass of wine with a meal.
Speaker 2:They're looking to get buzz. So those are not great behaviors. Those are behaviors we want to stop. So you would wait the hour, and then you would drink mindfully. So you've taken the naltrexone with food.
Speaker 2:You've now set an alarm, and an hour has gone by. And at that point, at the hour, you ask yourself, do I really want or need a drink and why? And you say, well, because I took the pill. No. That's not a reason.
Speaker 2:So you say, well, okay. I'm with friends, and I I took the tablet specifically so I could socialize with my friends, and I'm gonna drink a glass of wine mindfully. What does mindfully mean? Mindfully means that you don't leave the bottle on the table and just keep reporting while you're chatting with your friends. Keep topping up, topping up.
Speaker 2:So to the point where you can't even tell yourself how many how many drinks you had. So all of these steps are part of of reducing your drinking mindfully. But, honestly, if a person just is able to take the tablet and wait the hour, they're they're doing at least something good. And that's a good step toward reducing or stopping drinking. The the the more complete version of the Sinclair method is what I discussed about asking yourself why and being mindful and telling the local bartender, you know what?
Speaker 2:Don't pour me a double. Just give me my you know, a a regular glass of wine. Don't give me extra. You know, telling your host, let me finish this glass before I refill it, please. It's it's it's being mindful.
Speaker 2:Having a nonalcoholic beverage between alcoholic beverages, all of that mindfulness adds up to a better experience. But what Sinclair offered up, and and I knew the man myself, is he said, just take a tablet and wait an hour. He never talked about mind mindfulness or coaching or any of these things. But we've found throughout I have found throughout my experience is that people get they get lazy and they get complacent, and they're not fastidious about compliance. There's only one rule, and that is take the tablet and wait an hour.
Speaker 2:You'd be surprised how many people cock it up. It's like, well, I waited a half an hour. That's not the rule. Or, oh, I I took it with my first drink. No.
Speaker 2:That's not the rule. There's one rule. You take fifty milligrams. You wait an hour. You drink alcohol.
Speaker 2:So, you know, it it is quite remarkable that this is so dead easy, but so many people screw it up. By the way, I'm not being judgy. I screwed up too. You know? I I relapsed on on the the Sinclair method because I didn't do all the work that I now talk about doing for a complete recovery.
Speaker 2:These these medications, once again, are a tool. They're a tool, and they're enormously helpful, but you have to have support. You have to keep a drink log. You know, you've you've gotta or at least a diary or something to be present and mindful in your own recovery.
Speaker 1:It's definitely a tool that's useful. I certainly see as you're talking where I fell off in using it in a few different ways. Like, number one, definitely wasn't drinking mindfully. I was just drinking like normal and seeing what happened, which by default, I just drank less because I I just didn't do the same effect. But I would definitely I remember having it and being like, Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't really feel much. I wonder if I can still get a buzz if I have another one here.
Speaker 2:You tried to drink through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Just to see what would happen. And it definitely took away that want to keep drinking, so it it was successful in that way. But then I do remember take in mind I had like, I was just so didn't I was doing trying anything and everything, right, and and not not the right way.
Speaker 1:So I also remember picking and choosing. Oh, tonight's Friday. I won't do it tonight, but I'll do it, you know, Monday, Wednesday, and, you know, Thursday or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That definitely doesn't work. That definitely doesn't work. Yeah. You have to it the golden rule is every single time you drink.
Speaker 2:And if you continue to drink alcohol, then you will take naltrexone for the rest of your life. You know, that that's just the rule. It this is not a three month treatment. It's a lifetime commitment. Much like, you know, a diabetic.
Speaker 2:If they if they want to have a slice of birthday cake, they're gonna have to check their blood sugar levels and and shoot up or, you know, increase their insulin. I mean, that's just they have to in order to tab this, you're gonna have to do this. You know? It's people with high cholesterol take their tablets. People with heart conditions take their tablets.
Speaker 2:So this is a medical condition that you're treating with a medication. And and that this is the slippery slope of and the insidiousness, really, of a substance use disorder because it will play with your mind and tell you that you don't need it or, oh, you wanna go have fun on holiday, so don't take your tablets with you. I mean, I have people who are like they're on it for four years, and then they're like, oh, I forgot take my meds to Italy with me. And I had a spectacular relapse. And I'm like, well, they kinda knew that was coming.
Speaker 2:I mean, so you know? So you have to think what is the lesson there? What what part of your recovery are you desperately in need of right now? And that might be just self reflection. Because if if you're if you're sort of deliberately yourself up for a disaster, then you you something is screaming inside.
Speaker 2:Something needs to be addressed. And maybe it's your relationship. Maybe it's your workplace. Whatever it is, you're not healthy. This is not healthy behavior.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of moving parts to recovery, and people should understand that relapse and trying multiple things are part of recovery. There's very few people who are one and done. You know? Oh, I went to rehab, and I never drank again. I've never met anybody like that.
Speaker 2:And I've been doing this since 2009. You know?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, we can we can even take it a couple steps back and not even at the level where somebody needs or feels like they need recovery. And they're they're doing moderation, but they say, oh, I was gonna do, like, the thirty days that you know, how often do you hear people say, I didn't make it to thirty days? Just at all levels when it comes to alcohol, it's very hard to stick. There there's there's just so many different levels and nuances and relationships and reasons why Yeah. Why we wanna drink and why we wanna change.
Speaker 1:I mean, there are just so many things to the equation that makes it very hard to predict and also to stick to it.
Speaker 2:But, you know, we we put our effort into we are inherently a bit of a lazy society. You know? It's much easier to just take Ozempic than it is to change to food and exercise. You know? Whereas, you know, people want these magic quick fixes, and here we are handing them a magic quick fix, and they won't even do that.
Speaker 2:So it's you know, there there are other elements involved. It's not it's not just that they're lazy. It's or or that they're not, you know, compliant. It's it's that the the the addict, that little thing in your head does whisper to you, don't take the pill. You don't need the pill.
Speaker 2:Don't take it. Just have a beer without the pill. Don't doesn't beer taste better without the pill? You know? I mean, even people people who've been on it for years with zero side effects suddenly say to me, oh, well, you know, it was making me not sleep well.
Speaker 2:I'm like, hang on a second. You've been on it for years. Your sleep was great. Have you ever thought that maybe it's menopause? You know, may maybe your hormones have shifted, and that's why you're not sleeping, or maybe you're going through something stressful.
Speaker 2:Don't blame naltrexone. Naltrexone was working great for you. Let's let's dissect this. Let's be a forensic, you know, detective in your life here because I don't want you to give up on this. You know, it's it's interesting, but people will try to self sabotage a lot.
Speaker 2:But I don't think it's deliberately them. I think it's that that that lizard, you know, rearing its ugly head saying, oh, I wanna get back in there. What can I do? It just sabotage this person's recovery. Yep.
Speaker 2:It's really crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, I I said mine there as an example what not to do now that I'm looking back. So Yep. That's okay. I I'm pretty open about all the mistakes I've made along the way.
Speaker 1:I'm happy where I am now, and so it's easier to look back and point those out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Holy gosh. I made I made so many mistakes, but, you know, that's just part part of the process. And the good news is that I can use that as lived experience when I'm dealing with somebody who's trying to, you know, pull the wool over my eyes. I'm like, no.
Speaker 2:Been there. Worn the T shirt, pal. I've seen this movie before. You're not gonna pass that out on me. I'm very blunt to my client.
Speaker 2:Very blunt because I've I've done I've done everything incorrectly and correctly. So I know I you know, it's I've lived it. Yep. So it's it's more helpful to just be dead honest.
Speaker 1:Couldn't agree more for sure. Well, okay. I wanna ask this. Is there a myth or misconception around naltrexone that you wish would disappear?
Speaker 2:Yes. I I wish the, you know, the NALovers and all of that. You know? There's a lot of chatter online about these extreme side effects, and and the truth of the matter is the side effects dissipate within a week or two. And quite often when people reduce their drinking, what they're experiencing is withdrawal from alcohol.
Speaker 2:The bad sleep, the the sweatiness, the discomfort, the agitation, the bad mood, that's quite often a withdrawal from alcohol. You've been drinking every single night. Quite. And yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Quite aligned to Yeah. They blame the Naltrexone for a lot of things, or they'll say, oh, you know, I'm I'm I I I just feel blue. Well, you know, once again, it is a it is an opiate antagonist, but on the other hand, alcohol is a depressant. So if we're eliminating the alcohol, which is a depressant, and you're having alcohol free days and Naltrexone free days, and you find yourself depressed, you can't blame the the Naltrexone at that point. You know?
Speaker 2:You have to address your life, and maybe that's the reason why you were drinking is to cloud over those feelings of depression and just to to avoid really that thinking of what's wrong in my life or what can I do to change my life? You know, the the I used to sort of resent all these pithy little things like, you know, the the the expressions in the addiction world. Some of them actually work like the Halt B. Are you hungry, angry, lonely, tired, or bored? You know, I always ask people that, and and and that's something that's used in 12 step programs or whatever.
Speaker 2:But it works because if you really ask yourself, am I hungry, angry, lonely, tired, or bored? Or I would also say dehydrated because people tend to drink when they're thirsty. And if all of those things check off and and you're not any of those things, then then you ask yourself again then, why do I wanna drink? And maybe it's a genuine craving. And in that case, naltrexone can be your friend, your ally.
Speaker 2:You know? But but you have to to be there has to be that process of elimination. We have to determine. We can't we've gotta stop being mindless instead of scrolling through Instagram. You know, let's be mindful about saying, no.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna read 20 pages of a book instead. I'm gonna go for a walk instead. That's a mindful act mindfulness. That's an act of mindfulness is to change our behavior. Instead of mindlessly eating cookies, I'm gonna, you know, allow myself one cookie and eat it in a different room, you know, not away from the cookie bag.
Speaker 2:You know, that's an act of mindfulness if you're trying to lose weight. I'm gonna mindfully go for a walk right now. So I think that all of that adds up to to, you know, a much healthier recovery. And but those those the things that I don't like that are being bandied around are these, you know, blaming Naltrexone for the the woes in in in a person's life when in reality, in all of the years that I've been doing this, I've really only met two people. Two people who could not tolerate naltrexone physically.
Speaker 2:They were puking and puking and nauseous and nauseous, and they tried. And they they it just did not agree with them. That's two people out of thousands. So so, you know, it it it's so and I people are so they're they're very afraid. Like, woah.
Speaker 2:I've read the thing about the liver. I'm like, if you're so afraid about damaging your liver, why are you drinking a half bottle of vodka every night or three bottles of wine?
Speaker 1:That's that's the one that cracks me up is a little bit is, like, we'll go out and don't think twice about what we're gonna have to drink that night, but then read every single thing on the Internet
Speaker 2:Inside of it.
Speaker 1:Something that FDA approved and Benal and Millell studied. It's just it's funny because it just it doesn't make any sense. You know?
Speaker 2:No. It makes no sense.
Speaker 1:I research, of course, but, like, also
Speaker 2:Doctor. Eskopa told
Speaker 1:me that over that other fact of what you're doing.
Speaker 2:Over the counter pain medications are more harmful to your liver.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Aleve, you know, Tylenol, all of that stuff. I mean, so if you're if you're popping those like they're Tic Tacs, but you won't take your naltrexone, then there's another there's an underlying reason why you're not.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, I wanna ask you because you made a documentary called one little pill. What motivated you to make it, and what stood out the most while filming?
Speaker 2:What motivated me to make one little pill is were the loved ones of people who wanted to try this method because a lot of people just did not understand it. So I thought if I make a documentary showing real people on it and doctors talking about it and then interview doctor Sinclair and doctor Eskapa and doctor Didi in India who uses it, you know, maybe people who whose loved one wants to try this method will say, ah, okay. This is legit. I was I was making that movie to legitimize this this evidence based, you know, science based treatment. That was the impetus and to explain the science behind it.
Speaker 2:It you know, show the the model of the brain and the medication on you know, and the endorphins coming out. So I really wanted to just spell it out in black and white. I would say one of the most surprising things about that making that movie were two things. There was a woman who ran remained anonymous in the film whose family just would not support her even trying this method. And that that that saddened me because I she had to do it privately and which you know, one of the most insidious behaviors of a substance use disorder is hiding that substance, hiding the alcohol.
Speaker 2:So to con because it elicits an actual positive. It's like an exciting behavior. It's like having an affair. You know? So when you hide the alcohol in the garage or in your pantry, it's actually it's it's creating this endorphin rush that we don't want to have.
Speaker 2:You know? We we don't wanna have that behavior linked to something enjoyable.
Speaker 1:I used to hearing it in from my childhood, look back, and be like, why am I doing this as an adult? It's like, let me see what I can get away with.
Speaker 2:It's what I can get away with. It's the same thing why cocaine was exciting when people weren't doing it in bathrooms and, you know, in closets and stuff because it was illicit. You're hiding it. You know, kissing somebody in an elevator is exciting. You know, we can the door is open because you could get caught.
Speaker 2:You know? That all of that behavior is very, very addicting. So it was sad for me that she had to hide it and that she had zero support. The second thing that was shocking to me was when going back to the rehab facility that I attended base Bayside in in Northern California and having them, you know, basically say, well, yeah, we've heard of it, but, you know, we would never prescribe something like that. It was just so obtuse.
Speaker 2:It was like, seriously? All these people that that you're you're putting through this system, they get out and they relapse and they come back. Do you think that a revolving door a revolving door model of business is healthy or or even should be legal? If your business model is that you know your business doesn't work, so people will come back and try it again and again and again and again, that's like saying, okay. I'm gonna go to a heart surgeon, but, normally, one has to go to him eight times and have surgery eight times before he gets it right.
Speaker 2:What the would you go to that heart surgery? You know? No.
Speaker 1:Crazy.
Speaker 2:So this is their business model is the revolving door. You know? Lindsay Lohan goes in nine times. That's not funny. That's irresponsible treatment.
Speaker 2:That is that is that is malpractice. That's a treatment that isn't working. That's a treatment model that doesn't work if you have to go nine times and you're still not better. That that that to me was shocking was that this woman is sitting there just sort of admitting that your treatment model sucks and that you're unwilling to learn or change at all.
Speaker 1:You're unwilling to you?
Speaker 2:Or It was shocking
Speaker 1:to me. I thought make you angry?
Speaker 2:I was I was angry at the $30,000 I I threw out the window. I was angry at their at their stubbornness and their digging their feet in. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that, you know, it's my way or the highway. I got better by going to AA meetings, and I still have to go every day. So you're gonna do the same thing.
Speaker 2:You know? I remember I did Larry King, and and this actress, Meredith Baxter, she said to me, you know, she was so condescending. Had I just been able to take one pill and get better, I still wouldn't have done it because I've got so much out of AA. And I was like, look, lady. You may like your AA buddies.
Speaker 2:I found it boring, repetitive. I found the people pathetic in my groups that I was going to. All they wanted to talk about was their drinking, and they were living in the past, and they identified as alcoholic. I wanted to get over that. If I had cancer, I wouldn't identify as a cancer survivor.
Speaker 2:I would just say, you know what? Yeah. I had cancer. It's gone. It's same thing with alcohol.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, I had a problem, and now it's gone, and I can live my life. My life is not gonna be dedicated to worshiping at the altar of alcoholism. I'm sorry. You know, that was something that I dabbled in, and it was awful, and it almost killed me. And I don't wanna think about it much less talk about it every day of my life and go, I'm an alcoholic.
Speaker 2:I mean, come on, man. You know, that's your
Speaker 1:I've got sparklers and fireworks going off and celebration because I love every I mean, to each his own, but, oh my god, I am right there with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But it was so condescending, and it was like, okay. You know what? That's great for you that you've spent forty years hanging out with a group of people smoking cigarettes and eating your donuts and talking about your alcoholism all day long, but that's not everybody's bag. So just be open minded enough that next time you go to a meeting and you notice somebody's relapsed or they've disappeared and come back looking all hang doggy, maybe you could say to them, have you ever thought about taking a medication for your cravings so you don't continue to relapse?
Speaker 2:That's all I'm asking. Just spread the love. I'm not asking you not to go to AA or not use your 12 step or go to rehab. I'm just asking you to learn about options and share that information. Because guess what?
Speaker 2:The current paradigm is not working. Just as many people are dying every year as they were ten years ago, twenty years ago, thirty years ago. If not, more people are dying now. So it ain't working.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Feeling is not working. So all I'm asking people is to have an open mind and to talk about it even if you don't believe in it. Go to your Thanksgiving or your Christmas dinner and say, hey, uncle Bob. I noticed you're drinking a lot. Have you ever heard of Naltrexone?
Speaker 2:There. You might have saved his life. Yes. That's all.
Speaker 1:Nobody needs to be right. Just give options that work for that person. That's all
Speaker 2:it needs I to don't care. I always say this. I don't care if you ride a unicycle and take grapefruit to get better. Just get better.
Speaker 1:That'd be dirty. I
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Drink grapefruit juice and ride a unicycle. That's how you got sober. Fantastic. One less drunk person on the road. Yay.
Speaker 1:Alright. I I wanna I wanna conclude with this this question. So after everything we just said, looking ahead ten years, what's the best possible future you hope to see in alcohol care?
Speaker 2:Best possible future in alcohol care would be a new generation of doctors or a current generation of doctors that are educated. And medical professionals, RNs, anybody who is able to prescribe to be educated that there are other options out there, that there are off label uses of medication and also on label uses of medication that can help people recover. They can help them stop drinking or reduce drinking. In a perfect world in ten years from now, a lot of people, even kids, would say, hey. Do you have an Naltrexone on you?
Speaker 2:You know? I just think it it my dream would be that it's just more well known that some big movie star comes out and says, hey. I used targeted use of Naltrexone. Look at me now. I just won the Academy Award.
Speaker 2:You know? I mean, that that would be my dream is that it's just it's known, it's accepted, and it's prescribed. That's that's that would be my dream is that this and over the counter. That would really be my dream is that it's over the counter, like smoking cessation and, you
Speaker 1:know, other other Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dan destigmatized, which I guess is accepted.
Speaker 2:Destigmatized is is the more we talk about it, the more we discuss our substance use disorders, our eating disorders, our mental health, all of these things just become more acceptable and easier to deal with and easier to treat if we're just open about it. If you look at a a smart, successful person and they say, oh, yeah. I I was a heroin addict, but I did this and this to get over it. You know? You're like, wow.
Speaker 2:Or this person you admire says that they had a substance use disorder or an eating disorder, you know, and they got over it. It gives you role models. It gives you hope. And we are all, you know, part of this human condition, and we just need to love and support each other. And we need to talk about our issues so that somebody else might might see that TED Talk or that podcast or that great you know, listen to something and say, oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Maybe I can seek help too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe maybe it's time for me to find a solution for my own problem.
Speaker 1:Well, Claudia, this has been amazing. I wanna give you a second to talk about anything that you have coming up or that you're excited about or that anybody listening should can find you or, you know, anything. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. Well, I've got a kid's book out called the mother tree that just came out. That's on Amazon. Very true. A lot of books, including Journeys, which is a wonderful collection of of stories of people on the Sinclair method.
Speaker 2:Journeys is available also on Amazon. Of course, my first book about it was called Babylon Confidential. That's still still in print, and that's still available. It's about my own journey and my Hollywood career as well. I've written a lot of books.
Speaker 2:So oh, and we rebranded. So my nonprofit is now called Options Save Lives. So people can find tsmoptions.org, Options save lives, or they can just Google Claudia Christian nonprofit or what whatever. Also, One Little Pill is available on YouTube for free. So it's less than an hour long, and people can watch that.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of resources out there. We have tons of resources. There's groups. There's you know, I guess my message would be to anybody is don't be afraid to change your life now. It's worth it.
Speaker 2:Worth the effort.
Speaker 1:Perfectly said. Claudia, thanks so much. Anybody listening, if you haven't, go check out our TED talk as well. That's a great one. And thanks so much again.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.