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You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp: Hi Allison, how are you?
Allison Davis: Hi, Becky. I'm good. How are you? Good.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm great. Thank you for doing this. I'm so excited about it. Anyone who has ever spent time with me in a virtual call, a virtual setting, in a mastermind, in a networking call, anything else has probably heard your name by now because I'm out there constantly talking about what you do because I'm just, I love the way you show up in the world. So I am so excited for us to talk about sales done differently. And before we get into that, I do want to know about your relationship with feminism.
Allison Davis: Well, as a listener of your podcast, I knew this question was coming and I actually want to thank you for asking it. It's something that I'd like to think about more, honestly. There's a lot of things I'd like to think about more and have time in our days and in our lives. My relationship with feminism has always been, this is the best I could come up with, is that my relationship with feminism is always something I've been constantly regarding. It has felt...In my younger years, in high school and in college, I was so full of myself and big visions and dreams and I was so righteous and I felt like I knew how things should be done. And the feminism that was around me, I didn't have a lot of respect for. The feeling has changed slightly in my old age. I was watching women a generation or two older than me working their way through institutions that didn't want anything to do with feminism. And they were doing their best. And for me, it was not nearly radical enough. And so I was the, you know, pounding my fist on the desk and trying, nah, it's not good enough, you know, and that was my sort of brand of feminism then. And then as I got older, a little wiser, started talking less and listening more, realized that I was perpetuating that feeling for others, you know, with, of course, with the idea of intersectionality and saying, rightfully so, there are a lot of feminists out there pounding their fist on the desk because of what I'm perpetuating. And so it's sort of been this thing that I just keep regarding and keep trying to peel the layers back and intersectionality as a whole and also my own as a queer person, a femme identifying person, a fat person. It's just this never ending thing that I'm trying to remember to regard with some thoughtfulness and curiosity and conviction more days than I don't.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that answer and I think it's important for us. This actually makes me think in the future. I should ask, what is your relationship with feminism today? Because it is, you're right, it's every day. It changes, doesn't it? As we learn more, as we grow, as we have fewer fucks to give, all of that.
Allison Davis: As I continue my journey as a white privileged human, you know, I try to remember how I felt when I was feeling not seen, not heard, not respected. There was, I was actually telling my partner this morning a story. I went to a small Catholic college and I could tell you a million stories about some BS that was going on. But there's this one in particular, if I may, which was at some point during my tenure there, they decided that they were going to put a women's center on campus. Now, when, this is the 90s, know, early 2000s when you think women's center, I'm thinking liberal, we got condoms everywhere. We have got information about, know, safe sex, dental dams. was like, take care of your body, planned parenthood, like all the things that I was living for. But that's not what that women's center was going to be. There was going to be none of that, like stated, unequivocal, none of that, no LGBTQ plus, nothing. And I had a college radio show at the time called Bitchin Radio, a feminist radio program. we just, me and my radio partner, we just started saying, call it what it is. It's a Catholic Women's Center. no tea, no shade. Do not though, for the 17 year old who I was looking for my fit. By the way, how are we letting 17 year olds decide where they go to I needed some clearly needed some guidance.
Becky Mollenkamp: I was a 17 year old who thought she knew enough to like meet her forever partner and get married not long ago. Please, we do not know anything, but we think we know everything at 17.
Allison Davis: Hey, we think we know. Yeah, I mean, I suppose if anybody had tried to tell me, maybe I wouldn't have. Yeah, that's fair. Long story short, we just we were just saying call it a Catholic Women's Center because we don't want those 17 year old young humans who we don't want them to get the wrong idea that this is a place that they can come for information about their bodies, about their health, you know, and be supported. And a few weeks after our crusade began, a professor I had never met before who was the feminist on campus, she had written books, was waiting outside my classroom when I left a course or a class. And she kind of got me, I remember being pinned against the wall. I was, I have a very dramatic young person, but not really. She did kind of corner me though. And she said, are you Alison Davis? I said, I am. And she said, she implored me to stop saying call it a Catholic women's center. And we all know, we all know where this is going. It's because her, generation or brand or whatever of feminism was we have to small change. Don't make too much noise. Get in. Be polite. Infiltrate from the inside out. And that wasn't good enough for me. And I suppose what my feminism now today is instead of just like continuing to tell that story self -righteously is to be curious about who's looking at my brand of everything, of feminism, of queerness, of, you know, how I show up in the world, my brand of sales, and who's shaking their fist at me, rightfully so. And how can I see how I am now cornering people in hallways after class and doing a similar thing that I don't want to become.
Becky Mollenkamp: I like where that ended because I thought you were gonna say, but now I understand her and I have I'm in her shoes, which is great because I was like, man, the older I get, I think I had I went a similar journey like overly righteous at that young age as we all are such idealists. Then I went through this period of like, no, maybe change really needs to be small. And we got that whole journey of fighting from within and like incremental. Maybe this is the way to do it. I started to kind of believe those things. And for me, it's now the older I get and the fewer fucks I have to give. Thank God menopause, you I love you. I am just like of that place of I can't believe I ever did went down that path. And now I am as not righteous, but as is as invested in radical change as possible.
Allison Davis: That's right. I was lucky in that time also to, you my small Catholic college was right down the road from a larger university. That thankfully had a few other things going on and I remember hearing Les Feinberg speak and saying, know Listen for the queer movement trans movement. It's always been You know the buttoned -up professional white privileged folks who are at then I'm paraphrasing but you know at the negotiating table for us and and and to be however old I was 19 or 20 or something and to hear Les Feinberg say but you got to remember you are only as strong as the people on your picket lines and look at who those people are and hear what they're saying, hear how loudly they're saying it. so, yeah, I'm right with you.
Becky Mollenkamp: I actually feel like that's a really nice segue into sales because I know that you have said that sales were taught have always been or have historically been taught by white men as has almost everything. Right. And as you're saying in that same way of like it's this historic who has been holding the keys and who has been the one teaching us and telling us how to show up. And with sales, it's no different. And what has that meant for how sales is anti -feminist, how it goes against the way you have shown up in the world. I know there's probably a lot there, so maybe we can just start to peel back the onion a little.
Allison Davis: Yeah, it's a big question. You know, sometimes because I think because of who I'm privileged enough to surround myself with that I can I can kind of forget about maybe how it is still being perpetuated. I think there's a story I get to tell myself in my own privilege that it's getting better all around me all the time. And just this morning, I opened up YouTube and got served an ad that was a white sales bro on a whiteboard who had written a bad follow -up to follow up on a proposal or whatever, and then his alternative. There's not enough time in this entire hour that we're going to get to spend together to talk about the pillars of white supremacy and the absolute BS that this guy was still spewing right on a YouTube. So how does it manifest? Well, there are a million ways and I think that we'll keep uncovering it during our conversation, but I'll start with this manufactured versus organic and true. So the stale, pale, male sales playbook is, didn't, I don't know. I wish I could credit whoever said that to me first. I don't know. Stale, pale, male sales playbook is manufactured urgency. It's exploiting pain points and fear and pushing and, the urgency and the perfectionism and the written word and the, it's all of those things. And it is all push.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that, stale pale male.
Allison Davis: My customers are subject matter experts who sell mostly into larger organizations, nonprofits or big companies, startups, whatever. You don't have to manufacture anything. There's enough problems and pain and challenges to go around. Like if we can just do the shift away from manufactured, agitating, exploitative BS and do a shift over to what is true for you right now. You don't have to manufacture anything. There is organic pain. There are organic challenges that need attention and organic urgency is the biggest thing I wanted to say. And my God, you're going to have to be like time out. Please allow me to speak on my own podcast.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, no, no, no, I love it. It brings me right to something else I want to talk about because I was perusing your blog to do a little research. Before this interview, I always like to look what people have done.
Allison Davis: I may have been on YouTube watching your thing, which is why it's hilarious that I got served that ad. I was like, what in God's green earth makes me, what would make you think I would want to watch this guy? You know, I don't know. It's a miss. It's a miss.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, that makes me sad that that ad would come up on my right. It does seem like quite the waste of money that they would be average. Anyway, very big mess. But you had a blog post about making your buyer feel safe. And in that blog post, I you know, I'm here for safety as much as we can help to create safety or at least safer spaces in all in all places. But one thing I noticed was that it talks about sales psychology and the tall pale male, stale pale male. Yeah, you're right. Sorry, I couldn't remember the first word, stale pale male, which obviously I love the rhyming. So the stale pale male, I think what I'm hearing you get at and what I have, most of us have felt over the time is they have had the same information that you have had about sales psychology and they are using it in a way that is to manipulate people into performing the way they want, which by the way, we also know that stale, pale males have been doing this in all sorts of places, not just in sales, right? But so how do you go about using sales psychology and avoiding, because I think that's the thing that comes up for people. We have all felt manipulated. We have all felt used. We have felt these false sense of urgency. We feel all of this stuff. And I think that's what makes it so uncomfortable for so many of us then to approach sales, because we think as soon as somebody starts talking to me about sales psychology, think I don't want to manipulate people like you feel like it's like you're telling me now I got to use these tools to trick people. So how do you start to like make those differences for yourself? Because it's tough.
Allison Davis: I think using a real life example of a salesperson, I had the unfortunate occasion to run into. then sharing how we might be able to do something differently. So I, at some point, it's a long story, but I'll just say I ended up on a sales call with arguably one ofour world's largest, most well -known coaches. And he's a guy.
Becky Mollenkamp: And folks, I think we can read between the lines.
Allison Davis: How I ended up on that call is another story. But here's how that call went. First, you have to fill out an application and I'm filling it into the best of my ability and it says, what are the three things you want to work on? And I know that the first two had to do with my business and growing my business. And the third one had to do with my health and my weight. It's like my overall health, moving my body more, things like that I feel so sad for even the person I was like seven years ago doing this. I'm like, girl, come on. But I was actually just doing a little bit of research. I wanted to know what they were doing, but it ended up like really being a traumatizing experience. So I fill this thing out. There's some appointment checker we get on the call. It is the very definition of the sales guy you don't want to meet. And here's what he did. I had very legitimate business goals that I had put in that form and then that one about my body. And which one do you think he went to first and spent the entire time on? The one where there's just shame, more apt to be pouring out of my entire body, right? And he stayed there. He asked how much I weighed. He went through his entire NLP, by the way, I'm probably gonna I'm gonna get hate mail, but neuro linguistic programming used by these big coaches and other places to teach sales is disgusting. He did his whole thing, I could see him do it. I'm like, all right, all right. And when I said and he presented the coaching package. And when I said, I'm going to need 24 hours to think about it. He said, Well, then you're not serious. And I, you know, and I maybe had a couple choice words for him. And that call ended when he said, well, I hope you don't wait too long, because I'd rather try to help you before your partner, he didn't say partner, he said husband, of course, is leaning over you in a hospital bed while you die of a heart attack.
Becky Mollenkamp: That is traumatizing. And I'm sorry you went through it.
Allison Davis: It's thank you. It's it was awful.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I suspect most listeners also can, like, bet it immediately pulls in something for so many of us that even if it's not that story, it's something like it. And unfortunately, I know we're not talking specifically about health and wellness, but the medical industry is notorious for these same shaming techniques. So I think most of us can relate in so many ways.
Allison Davis: 100%, absolutely. Now, not that I want to help this guy or think about this guy much more for my entire life, right? But let's think about how you can work with a buyer's psychology and not be manipulative. Maybe it's not, mean, everything is about psychology a little bit because if it's about human interaction and what container you are setting up and what your goal and objective is, mean, this is all about psychology a little bit. And I'm not a psychologist and I haven't studied this a lot, but let's look at what he could have done instead. He could have said, you put these three things on this list. Right? You know, because you're a coach, Becky. This is so much about this is coaching, which is letting the other person lead. Let the other person tell you what's important. You don't have to put it in flashing lights or make that. Ask me to prioritize and hey, man, if you want to get curious. Hey, I noticed there was this third thing and we're almost out of time and I noticed you haven't brought it up. I'm curious if there's anything about that you want to share or is there anything interesting that we could derive from you not talking about that. I'm okay with those things. I'm being invited to consider my own behavior. And but I'm going to pause because I need my my people who are listening to me to check me. But does that am I are you picking up what I'm putting down about the difference between that? We can still work with it as a piece of what's going on with you psychologically. But I'm not pushing. I don't think I'm inviting you to hold it up to the light if it's something you put out there in the first place.
Becky Mollenkamp: I just think in so many things, to me, a lot of what feminism boils down to, think a feminist approach to many things is consent. And that is the piece I think can be so missing in so much of the traditional approaches to sales, to marketing, to all of the things is that consent piece, which it's the invitation, right? It is the people -centered approach. It's the them -centered, not you -centered approach inside of a relationship.
Allison Davis: Yeah. And I think it's also it really is about also think about the business model too, right? There's, there's no there. I try to, I try to remind myself that there are no bad business models. There are just bad practitioners of models. I have made some choices in my business that are right for me, which is I'm not a high volume, low touch gal. Because the more my business model, again, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but the more my business model swings in that direction, the more tactics and pillars of white supremacy I feel that I would need to lean into in order to make that business engine go. And that example that I just brought to the table of that horrible guy, that's the worst possible case scenario of that business model. So I think it is also when you sit and you consider where I'm starting a business and how do I want it to grow or I'm at an inflection point and how do I want to grow. For me, one of the biggest questions that always comes up is what will that mean I've got to do? How will that change how I need to be, how much time I spend with people? And if it gives me too slim a margin there, I'm not doing it. Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and that person who shall not be named is worth half a billion dollars. I think more. And I think that that's clear that his mission is very different. So if your mission is to grow that multi, multi, like if you're shooting for billions, I don't know why you'd be listening to this anyway. There's just nothing feminist about that to begin with. So we know that that's a bad actor, but the problem is so many of us get roped into it. And we buy into it because I want to reframe that because again, that's even putting it back on me. Like I made this choice. It's really not a choice. We are indoctrinated. It is put upon us from birth that that is what we're supposed to all want. And the unpacking of that process is very hard. So it sounds like you've had this feminist streak, this activist side of you for a long time. And yet you were still very much a part of the same conditioning we all were the same world. I am sure that when you went out and started to do sales as you were doing it. I would imagine you probably also believed a lot of this stuff, so tell me how you unpacked that for yourself. Like what was the turning point for you to say? Wait a minute, this doesn't work. It doesn't feel good and I don't want to keep perpetuating it.
Allison Davis: I first have to say that I was very lucky in my career. I sold advertising media, large event sponsorships for almost 20 years. And I wish I could say I did this with total purpose, but I didn't. I think I followed my gut, but I always worked almost exclusively for independently owned media. Even when I was with National Geographic, that department was still part of the nonprofit before they sold to Fox. So it was always independently owned media. Toward the end, I would leave just as they announced a sale to a bigger conglomerate or whatever. And especially my first job. The best, I'm so grateful for it. I worked at a newspaper that is still thriving to this day in Burlington, Vermont, owned by two women. And they were figuring sales out. And you know, sure, we would go to conferences and we'd hear that stale, pale male, you know, kind of stuff get, but we really were figuring out what worked for us as a small company in a very specific community, which is Vermont in the United States of America. and I, so I, I think I was really fortunate to have two women be my mentors in that, and that we were all figuring it out together. And I think when human beings get together to figure out what works, they actually do look at what the other humans around them need and want and what makes sense for them, and we build it from there. So that was my foundation. Now, as I got into my career, I worked with a lot of great people. I worked with a lot of great women. And I want to say, I'm not trying to like, yes, I like people like me, but I'm not trying to blow smoke up anybody's butt. They were all really fair, wonderful humans by and large, but it's the model. And it's just what got passed down and passed down and passed down. Now I've lost your question. How did I disavow myself with any of that or get away from it? You know, the truth is I didn't for a long time. I mean, when you're an employee as a salesperson and as a woman and who has varying identities, you talk about consent as a buyer. What about consent as an employer or an employee rather? You know, I was given a list of all these big companies and I was told you got to go sell to them. I would walk in and if I got treated poorly, disgustingly, didn't matter. I still have to sell to that company. I think it was really about how do I feel when I'm being asked to do this? What works and what doesn't work? And it really hasn't been until recent years, Becky, when I've met my communities and humans like you and really deeply listening where I can put names to things and to say, that's why they didn't feel good. And that's why that's never gonna work for the engineer who's trying to sell engineering, you know, consultant work, or the DEIB consultant who leapt out of corporate because this was not going to be working and is trying to make work a better place. you know, those types of tactics and the high pressure and the urgency and the if they say this, then you say that and there's no other script possible is not gonna work for them. And so I think I always kind of, mean, not to be self congratulatory, I'm sure I did terrible things, but it's like I always kind of did it my way. And now as when I'm older and wiser, I feel like I'm able to put words and context to things and to be able to say, well, that's why that felt really uncomfortable and I didn't like it.
Becky Mollenkamp: It sounds like I think for a lot of us, it's a running away from what doesn't feel good for a long time before you start running towards what does, because you don't we don't know what the what it could be yet. We just know this ain't it. And so we're running from that. And then eventually, I feel like you start to notice the other people who are running in the same direction and you start to help each other and learn from each other. And then we're like, OK, this is where we could this is what it could be. And when you start to get to that, it's here's what it could be place. That feels really nice, doesn't it? Like it feels good to no longer just be like, I know it's not that, but I don't know what it is to finally start saying, I know what it is. So let's talk about what it is. Your business or a DBA is sales done differently. That's the tagline on your website. That's what people talk about. What does it mean to you in a as Cliff's notesy version of it as you can get? What does that mean to do sales differently? Sales done differently.
Allison Davis: Thanks for asking. It does mean to throw out the playbooks that don't work for you. And so it could as easily be called sales done individually. You know, it really is. I only work with subject matter experts. Some nice people say, can you come in and help my sales team? And if that sales team is traditional salespeople, they've been doing this for their career. My answer is no, I'd love to grab a beer with them. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about what works and what doesn't work, which is just generally what happens when we are in a room of salespeople skeptical when somebody wants to teach us something new and I understand that. But sales done differently means really that there is not one way and subject matter experts who take a huge leap and risk, especially if they are under recognized human beings, to start a business. Most businesses fail. I mean, we've got to take a big old leap to do this. And when they try to follow somebody else's playbook, it fails miserably. Will their businesses work? Typically, yes, because when people leave their careers and start their own consultancies or agencies, they usually do so because they're really good at what they do. They've got good ideas and they have a network that will support them in the short term. They're not gonna just fall right off of a cliff. They're not going to. They're gonna survive for some time. But if they are trying to play by somebody else's playbook, I think we're getting into your territory, Becky. You tell me if I got it right. It's the energetics of that that are gonna crush your soul. And we can't have that because we need them to be out here in the marketplace being themselves and doing things differently. It's what's not sustainable.
Becky Mollenkamp: It's what's not sustainable. And I see you talking about sustainable sales too, right? Exactly. You can do it for a while, but masking, because that's masking. And masking is an exhaustive behavior, and we can't do it over the long term. Sometimes it's even a solution we need for safety, right? Psychological safety, physical safety to get us through a moment, but we can't do it permanently. No one can.
Allison Davis: And so all of all of Yes. let's get into that. I mean, it's like, you know, there's, there's, you know, do I want my sales to be led by feminism and like, and some of these things that you like, yes, but really, you want to know what my secret is, is that I am obsessed with efficiency for busy subject matter expert business owners who are trying to also have a life somehow in here The the other playbooks have them running around doing about a thousand things a day They don't need to do and so like I'm really driving toward efficiency so that there is what more choice in your life in the work you choose to do and I get, man, I'm in three different directions. I swear to God, I'm gonna, the balls are in the air, Becky, I'm gonna catch them. The first thing I'll say is that 2024 has been a hard year for service -based businesses. I mean, I think I can say that now confidently, like across the board. And what is the, the customers I have coming with me now and starting with me now, the thing that breaks my heart the most is them feeling like they've had to say yes to things that didn't feel aligned to save the business. And it's because they've been running around using somebody else's playbook for too long, throwing too much spaghetti, when really it's quality over quantity when it comes to lead generation, know, amount of activity you need to do. You know, it's these things, it's quite dialed in that we get to do that give us that renewable resource of doing the work that we wanna do over and over in the world. And at the very heart of that, you said what a sale is done differently. It is without the platitudes and all of the things that come along with it. It really is about centering the client, which we hear all the time, but it's not centering the client and then manipulating the crap out of them or centering the client, but then like shoving them into our own process and like sink or swim client. It really is about regarding the people or the organization sitting in front of you and getting really curious, not manufacturing the urgency, not then fear mongering, but saying what is actually going on with you understanding the questions it's really about. mean, Becky, it's your skill set, the questions that you ask, the curiosity that you have applying that, being really curious about these people, the organization, and then helping them gain some clarity about what that means. Where are they today, their current state? Are you clear on what that means for you and where you wanna go? And giving them some authority by to make a right decision to go forward because you're coming to the table with a lens of expertise and if you get their consent to share some of that expertise and to help them make a good decision whether it's to work with you or not to work with you everybody moves forward feeling really good and an integrity of that conversation. There are so many elements of that in the stale pale male playbook. They're there. That's what gets really confusing about it. But it's doubling down on the humanity of it and the true listening of whether or not this is the problem they want to solve at this time and if you are the best fit for that. then however that shakes out, being really good with that outcome.
Becky Mollenkamp: This is actually where I'm going to say it's not all just about the sales, that traditional sales playbook and the psychology of it and all the bad things. Some of it is also, feel like, and now I'm starting to speak from personal experience, but I think a lot of the clients you probably work with are similar as service based people who also probably have our values aligned with you and with me and who want to help people individually, right? Because they are not trying to sell, they're also not quantity kind of people, they're quality kind of people. So they want to do, they're probably also offering their clients a lot of very individual, you know, custom kind of services. And very often people think what they want is that one, two, three step solution, right? Just tell me what to do. Tell me you can do it in three steps. This is what I need. And they're receiving that from those traditional people coming in saying, all right, here's your problem. Here's how I'm going to solve it. Here's the three easy steps. And it can feel difficult to compete with that when you're showing up in this different way. And that's where I think it can also get tempting to kind of try and instead of listening, asking questions, getting the consent to sort of come in and bulldoze in that same way and try to cram your solution into some sort of three step solution because it's not just because you're being told by the you like the the stale pale male folks that you should do that, but also because clients have been learning that same approach and are almost demanding it. So all of this is say like, how do you deal with that when it's like it's not it's also tempting yourself to feel like I'm going to lose the sale if I don't because that's what they think they need. And that may be really big, but.
Allison Davis: Ooh, my gosh. I mean, if I could, if we could solve this and sort of package it up in a one, two, three step, then we would be really.
Becky Mollenkamp: There we go, let's just do that. The solution is a one through three step solution.
Allison Davis: So meta. I know, my God. Well, here's, listen, I'm not sure I have the exact answer, but I think, here's what I'll say. Herein lies the rub. that the, okay, well, pause, time out. You wanna know my biggest soap box is people giving advice or saying what is so without calling out who they're actually talking about or the business model they're talking about, right? I work with folks who sell premium consulting and services into bigger companies, right? And so they, hey, if you wanna have a million dollar business, God bless. And if you need a million dollar business and the thing you sell is on average priced at $100 ,000, you only need 10 clients, right? So what my clients have in common is that they don't need a high volume of business typically. But what it also means, which is what you're getting at, I believe, Becky, is that they're helping to solve really complex problems. And so if we're going to have what I am suggesting we have, which is a really rigorous, honest, holding up to the light conversation, even with our largest Fortune 500 clients, it is in direct opposition of what we are taught you need to do in selling and honestly probably what a lot of us business owners no matter what model you've seen no works which you tell me if I'm getting you right Becky is that you're saying we got to kind of keep the sales simple even though we're fixing complex problems and how the heck do we do that?
Becky Mollenkamp: Yes, and when we have clients who are very accustomed to people showing up that way. And so they kind of go into that sales conversation expecting it. Right, right, right. So when you're trying to challenge those norms with clients who are used to those norms, it feels like there could be a bit of a challenge there.
Allison Davis: Whatever your problem is, step one, step two, step three is going to fix it for you. Easy done and dusted. 30 minutes. Make a decision. Yes or no. You in, you out. Yeah, well, okay, there is. And I'm gonna say, yes, that playbook is gross. And so those of us who are trying to do it differently, sales done differently or disrupt in any way, that puts us at risk potentially, right? So we need those people, especially the people who actually are aligned with what you and I are saying to stop doing the stale, pale male playbook, because it's hurting the rest of us who are trying to do it differently, right? So we really need you to stop. And we need you to help us sort of disrupt and change because the issue is that buyers now expect that this is the right way to sell. So that's how they want you to show up. They don't know that I talk about this all the time. Are you showing up as a vendor or are you showing up as a strategic partner in your sales process? Now again, this is for folks selling complex services. Not everybody needs to show up as a big thinking strategic partner if you're trying to sell a $5 widget. That's a waste of your time. Know thyself and know thy business model. But it's a real problem when buyers, my customers all the time, a lot of my customers sell services into people and culture, departments and divisions of corporations, large nonprofits. And they encounter the same thing all the time. A buyer who thinks they're going to get on a call and download my customer for 30 minutes, here's all the problems, here's what we need to fix. I've been taught and trained that I just need to come and dictate to you the problem we have, the solution we need and you're gonna then take everything I said in 30 minutes, you're gonna do free labor for me for two hours, two days, or two weeks to put together a proposal, and you're gonna send it back to me transactionally. I'm gonna pitch up against a bunch of other people I don't know, and I'm gonna try to make the best decision, and because I don't know any of you, I'm probably gonna make it on price alone. This is not good. So, Becky, what's the answer? I don't know, because two things are true at once. For them to want to choose us and come to the light, we need to show up without a one, two, three solution. We have to get our hands dirty. We have to understand what is true for them. We don't need to agitate, we don't need to manufacture, but we do need to help them determine if they do not yet know. Well, what is the consequence of just staying where you are? What's the consequence of doing the status quo? Is it really that bad? it's bad? Okay, well, maybe we're moving toward a healthy decision for you to make some changes. We need that, but if our buyer has learned all these bad habits from the old sales playbook, then they're coming just expecting 30 minutes and you're gonna go put together a proposal and we're bing bang boom done. So we actually have to shift their perception too. Last thing I'll say. Finish my original thought. I didn't say that I also strongly identify as an ADHD -er, so God bless.
Becky Mollenkamp: I think so, I and I think most people listening probably too. So like, I feel like I'm attracting people who are like me. Right, yeah.
Allison Davis: So the two things are true at once and this what this is what makes sales and especially in 2024 really really hard. Two things are true. Your buyers if you're a subject matter expert really need you and they need the best of you in that sales process. And also, they need to feel safe to buy. And a lot of humans equate safety with simplicity. So they have complex problems that need to be solved. We need to get our hands dirty in that complexity to see if A, we can actually really solve them. We don't want to sell people something that they don't need or wouldn't be a good fit for us. We need to get in the complexity. And also what's true is our most ideal buyers, our dream clients, the people my clients really want to work with do sometimes equate the simplicity or transactional vibe of a sales process to safety. And that's a real problem.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and this is not probably the answer, but because you want the sale. There is also this part of me that feels like sometimes what I have experienced with my work as a coach and trying to do things a little differently is sometimes it does mean I miss out on the sale. And eventually they come back because that transactional experience ends up feeling transactional. It doesn't work. It didn't actually address what they needed because they were being put into a one, two, three step solution that doesn't work for them. Obviously, that's not reassuring when you're like, need sales now. But I do feel like we can't let one of the... Because I think sometimes people who try to do things differently also sometimes feel like I tried it, it didn't work. So I guess I just have to do this thing that doesn't feel good. And I do think this takes longer. Like I think this sales kind of process may take longer. It may not get you the quick wins, but I think it does get you the kind of relationships that then pay off in the long run. Is that your ex? I mean, you're giving me a thumbs up, so feel like I'm on track.
Allison Davis: 100%. You know, there is just, you know, I think at least the business owners I run with, we are intentionally trying to stave off this sense of urgency that we, at least in my crew, we all seem to run with, right? This is the white culture we live in you know, saying urgency, urgency and more and bigger and more. Right. So I don't really have a problem with that. I'm okay. I'm okay with not bigger and more, but like the urgency still sticks with me. and, and so this, and what's true is exactly what you're saying, Becky, is that to build again in this business model of premium consulting and services selling B2B is that it does take time. There's like the slow food movement. Let's do the slow sales movement. Like it is right. Even if those people, if you love something, let it go, it'll come back. And when they come back, they will come back with all their peers. They will be your best mouthpieces. They will be your best referral partners and things like that. The thing that I spend, if a group of my clients were here, I think they would agree. I spend the majority of my time and work with clients to help them understand one thing, that they're sending proposals too soon If I teach one thing, it is to slow it down. And that can often be very confronting for a lot of reasons. mean, from, I don't know how you were raised, but I was raised to be very polite and to please people. And so that's, I'm trying to undo that all the time. And so if somebody says, got 30 minutes, I'm gonna download you and then you send me a written proposal back, I'm gonna be like, yes, ma 'am. And like, and do that dutiful thing. I'm a dutiful order taker, but that is being a vendor. And so to come forward and slow this process down and actually give value to the client while I'm sitting here understanding and really trying to help them assess if this is the right investment to make at the right time, I might have to get a little uncomfortable myself. And so I am asking my customers to really slow things down and get more of this information ahead of sending a proposal to your earlier point where you said, hey, and if I do things my way, and they might go with that competitor that had the one, two, three solution. It is a -okay to say, you know what? That's okay. That just means I need some more volume in my pipeline because the people who see me, who see the light, they're gonna come to me. Those other people are gonna go do something else for a year and then they're gonna come back to me. That is perfectly acceptable. It does put more work on your plate though, Becky, because then you gotta fill your pipeline. What I want, if you were my client and this was the scenario, what I would be urging you to do and trying to find a way to help you operationalize is to ask a few more questions before you let that proposal go. I'm curious, how many folks are you talking to as a potential partner in solving this challenge? And what are you seeing from them if you don't mind me asking? What kinds of things are you hearing? How will you make this decision? Based on what criteria will you choose between me and this other agency or human? I'm really curious about that, about what makes up your decision making. And something I learned from the two women that own the newspaper that I started with is, because I remember the first time I said it, I think I nearly, you said I could swear on this podcast, I think I nearly shit a brick because I really was really like, this seems polite and I was really chow my 25 year old self was really challenged was to say hey when after you have your meeting with this other agency would you would you consider I'm trying to remember how exactly I said it my little my little phone and my little cubicle was could we put another 20 or 30 minutes on on the calendar because there's so many choices out there and I'll sleep better at night if if I know that you're choosing between apples and apples and not apples and oranges. And I got a great gift the first time I ever said that. The person said, that is so nice. Yeah, I would love that support. Thank you. And when my customers now start to pepper in more of these questions and specifically ask for more time or another call on the calendar, to help them further clarify their options and to make a good decision and to really make sure that a scope of work is really what it needs to be so that they can do internally what they need to do with it or whatever it is. I've never not once in serving hundreds of business owners at this point had anyone come back and say, they laughed me out of the room. They shamed me for asking for more time. They said, what are you nuts? Never, never. People are grateful for you to disrupt because they can feel that this process doesn't serve them. The quick, quick 30 minute download, you send me a proposal, one, two, three solution. It doesn't work. They can feel it. And so if you have an opportunity, even if you have to step into a little bravery to slow things down, to offer more time in service of them in your sales process, do it. I think you'll be really excited about the results of doing that.
Becky Mollenkamp: Let's talk about bravery because as you're talking about some of that in that 25 version of you who's scared to say the thing, I remember a brief time in my life when I was doing sales and I had to do cold calling, which it's what I know not at all effective, but I remember the fear involved in that. And I think I would love to know from your experience with the kinds of folks you're working with, what percentage of you had to kind of plot it out on a chart of what holds them back from sales success is I don't know how, what I'm supposed to say, how I approach all of this, and how much of it is I'm scared shitless to do that thing, to say that thing, to show up that way. Like how much of it is mindset versus tactics?
Allison Davis: It's so much mindset, I think, you know, because, you know, I think to a certain point, it's tactics, right? If they're reading books or listening to stale, pale mail, this and that, they know those tactics don't feel right. So they'll avoid them. But but even when I'm showing up and sharing tactics that do feel more aligned, I know it's mindset because it still can take, you know, some time to get into a groove and what I have found by and large, and I know that these are the people I attract, they're my people, what holds them back most of the time is an abundance of empathy and compassion for the buyer, often because they have been in the buyer's shoes. Not always, but my folks who run HR consultancies, they were top HR people. So they have been in these shoes. And so they are really worried about putting more time on their calendar, more work on their plate, the perception of more work. They're really sensitive to that. They want these humans to feel like I'm here to take work off your plate, which is true, but they will do a better job of that and more quickly get onto the work of doing that, taking stuff off their plate if they slow it down now. So it really is that perception of asking for more, centering myself instead of centering you that holds them back from asking for what is best for everybody. Does that make sense? Asking for more time, you know, it's like they're hesitant to do it. But when they say, hey, I have found that I can serve you better, more efficiently, if we meet one more time, are you up for that? Again, almost always a yes.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that you brought up empathy and that empathy slash people pleasing because I think these things get lumped together for us, especially as women or yeah. But also, I guess where my head had gone, this may show a little more of my own personal fears is the rejection, the abandonment. Like that's my core wounding. I think for some other people, it might be something. So that fear that you mentioned of like, what are they going to like? I asked this, are they going to laugh in my face? Even though
Allison Davis: Yep. It's a nice way of saying, yeah, exactly.
Becky Mollenkamp: Evidence may point to the opposite. There's this feeling of like, how can I? And then I also imagine you have to help people learn to practice being quiet, leaving empty space, because we want to rush in to solve, you know? So there's just so much inside of that. So just wondered, I assumed that a lot of this was probably also mindset.
Allison Davis: Well, this is why I'm so glad that so many of my clients work with you. mean, because we really are a good duo. mean, you know, I think I would hope that my clients would say, you've helped me with my mindset, but but I'm very happy to stay in my own lane and understand where my zone really is. It's to have that compassion for the mindset stuff. But but also knowing that there are people like you who are better suited to do that deeper work. Sales is tactical and energetic in every minute of every day that you're doing. I mean, it just is.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, I'm sure there's more we can talk about there, but I also want to be mindful of time because I wanted to ask you because you talked about the pipeline and I have a feeling so I'm going back to this because I'm sure people listening were like, why didn't she say, yeah, that's my problem. I need a bigger pipeline, especially in this year, I think has probably helped a lot of people see that like my pipeline wasn't big enough and it was okay when more people were saying yes, because it was still able to function. But now I'm realizing when fewer people are saying yes, I've got to have more people I'm talking to. And that building up a bigger pipeline feels can be very challenging for folks. And there's a lot of traditional ways that we're told to do it that don't feel good. I know like when I talk to people about your work, I and this may not be how you phrase it, but I say your work is like relationship based sales because that's what it feels like to me. I see you saying yes, so OK, good. I'm glad I'm not saying it wrong. OK, good. And so I think it looks different than just saying, get a white paper and download it from our website. And that's how we're going to get you on our email list. then we're going to write. I can see you roll your eyes. So yes. So when you talk about building up sales pipeline, I really would love to talk about your roundtables. This is where I send people all the time. So if you've ever had a conversation with me, you probably already heard me tell you about Alison's monthly roundtable.
Allison Davis: Beautiful.
Becky Mollenkamp: It is such a wonderful model, I think, but I would love to hear from your side of it, because I'm only seeing it from the user side. I want to know if it actually works for you. I'm guessing it does because you continue to do it. But you're giving. It is an hour of giving. You don't I mean, there's barely a pitch. Sometimes you kind of like remind people, hey, I'm here. But right. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, if we might be a good fit, like here's how you can hold me. But it's really just truly an hour of you showing up, educating, coaching, asking questions, delivering information that's interesting or timely or whatever. How did you start with that model and why does it work or does it work or how does it work for the pipeline piece?
Allison Davis: So here's what I'll say. And I, if I could shout this from every rooftop, know, beware of any business advice, unless the person is telling you how it works for your model a one -to -many, a one -to -one model, a content, I'm a content creator -based model versus I am a high -touch service provider model, I've got a course. If there's so much advice is bad because it doesn't fit your business model, so I really want to get that out there, and anytime you are considering hiring a consultant, a coach of any kind, ask them. How does your work differ or work or not work for various business models? And just look at, watch their face. And the next, anyway, don't get me started. That's a whole other show about people giving advice on other people's business models. know. So let's talk about filling the pipeline. So filling the pipeline, here's the thing. Remember, my customers, right? The business model is low volume, premium pricing.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know and there's so many things we could talk about. We're not going to get to half of what I want to talk about today, but yeah, let's talk about this.
Allison Davis: These are, you know, folks who are used to solving complex problems in their organizations and used to buying solutions for that in some manner. They don't need a lot of customers. Some need 10 new customers a year or less. And so when we wake up on that fateful morning, when our network seems to have dried up, it's 2024. There are fewer organic inbound leads coming your way, less referrals. People are taking longer to make a decision. They're scrutinizing budget. They're kicking the can down the road. They're acting out of their own best interest. We're in a lot of trouble. And all of a sudden, a lot of business owners in 2024 had to look in the mirror and say, I have to go proactively develop a lead today. And that's a whole, I do not, and that's a horrible realization. I've just been doing that since I was 22 years old. So it's, you know, it's just experience with old wizened experience at this point that it's like, you know, I'm okay with that. That's a really hard place to be. it causes panic. And what do we do when we panic? We ask everybody we know, or we Google in the middle of the night, we doom scroll, we try to figure it out. And all of the advice out there says something similar, which is, you gotta post more on LinkedIn. For $3 ,000, I'm gonna sell you your LinkedIn strategy. I'm gonna look at your, you know, I'm gonna look, whatever, look at your profile and fix it up and whatever. For $10 ,000, I'm gonna cold call every HR leader from here to Timbuktu and you're gonna have nine leads a week coming into your inbox. Now that is some predatory sales BS, right? Because for my customers, not saying anybody else's customers, for my customers, that doesn't work. High volume outreach doesn't work. Why? Because they're selling to VP level and above and how do those people make decisions? They got a big complex problem to solve. Do you think they're going to their LinkedIn and answering a cold outreach email even if it says, we have Becky in common. Isn't Becky great? How are you? You wanna have a call about my sales program? Like absolutely freaking not. That's not how high level decision makers are making decisions. So the first thing is know what tactics are gonna work. So for my customers, it is not cold calling. It is not endlessly posting to LinkedIn. It is not that. It is relationships. And that can be frustrating because it's like, well, I'm already out here doing the relationship thing. I get my nerve up and I ask people for referrals. I try to speak at conferences or I go shake a million hands at conferences. Becky and I might share a referral every now and again. I'm doing it. It's not enough. But the problem is usually two things. Number one, you're doing too much activity, you're not really focused on the small number of relationships and opportunities that already exist in your network to go meet your most ideal customers. So first of all, you gotta dial that in. We're trying to create a renewable resource of lead channels here. And once you go and meet a lead, the second thing that's missing is an invite. I'm not the first person to say this. I think I read a book by Michael Port years ago or something that was like his, one of his strategies was always have an invite because if Becky, if I met you at a conference and I thought you could be a customer of mine, I've got, I think three choices. One, if I don't wanna be a pushy salesperson. I could just exchange business cards with you or get on LinkedIn and then just hope that you're gonna have the audacity to reach out and be like, I'd like to know more about your work. I'm gonna completely give up all of my, and I don't wanna say power, because that's not what I mean. Opportunity there to help you and guide you.
Becky Mollenkamp: But how many of us sit with yourself and be honest? Because ding, ding, ding, that's what a lot of us do. That's the choice a lot of us pick. We build it and hope they come.
Allison Davis: Another thing, you know, I said the mindset piece about I don't wanna put work on someone's plate. have one of my customers very close to my heart said, I'm just so worried that if I even give off the perception that I need business that I will look not successful and therefore they won't want to do business with me. I'm like, well, there's a catch 22 that we will never get yourself out of. we've got to, how do we, that should have sent her directly to you. I don't know what I was thinking. Like that's a serious mindset issue. So our number one choice is do kind of do nothing. Just be cool. Be cool, be cool. Be a lighthouse. Let all the boats come into you. You know, wow, that's going to take, I got to meet a lot of Becky's if I think that's how I'm going to fill a pipeline, right? So there's just more work and more work on my plate. That's burnout city. Bad. The second option is to invite them to have a sales conversation, which is gross. Unless someone has said, my god, Allison, where have you been all my life? You're exactly who I've been looking for. Listen, if they're giving you very clear buying signals, be like, well, I love to hear that. I don't want to be presumptuous, but do you want to take out our calendars and just find a time to actually talk shop? Do that. But if they're not given those buying signals, the minute you try to step into, would you like to talk about my services? You're gonna feel out of alignment, they're not gonna like it, and it's gonna go nowhere. The third option is the one that I like, which is to have an invite. And that is my sales roundtable. So in that moment, maybe I can see something behind your eyes that says, Alison Davis might be able to help my business, but you're not there yet. And I am not a gross salesperson. So I'm going to say, well, hey, you know, sounds like you got some sales things going on. I convene a group of amazing business owners once a month for a sales round table. You can bring your questions or you can just come listen like a podcast and, come check it out. I think, you know, hopefully the information will help you, but I know you're going to like the other people there.
Allison Davis: And so then they can come and they can come month after month until they qualify themselves. It's also a huge time saver for me. Now, the other thing I have to say is that I'm a bit lucky, right? I sell to small business owners. We gather. We know the importance of peer connection and from learning from people that we feel aligned with my customers are sometimes selling to VPs of five to $50 billion corporations. Guess who's not coming to a lunch and learn, folks? So what do their invites look like? You're gonna meet these people out in the world powerfully. We gotta invite them to something and then sell them. Meet, invite, sell. Those invites look different. Those invites can look like a highly curated small dinner of six peers who are working at their level, same things keep them up at night, et cetera, et can look like a market research 30 -30. May I ask you questions for 30 minutes? I'm gonna stick around for another 30. You can borrow my brain on any topic that's keeping you up at night. There's a whole slew of things. It can be an invite to be on a panel at a big conference. That person might really appreciate that. That's the invite. But we need time to deepen relationship and even more importantly, if possible, help our potential clients start to apply some of our ethos, some of our beliefs to their own problems and opportunities. They need a little time. If somebody puts a call on my calendar and they've not seen me speak somewhere, they've not come to a sales roundtable, and I'm getting on a sales call with them, I am like slow down city.
Allison Davis: This person doesn't know me at all. And if I try to rush and they haven't met me powerfully and they haven't come to an invite and I send them a proposal too soon, I know I will be ghosted. And unfortunately about once a year I have to prove that to myself again and again just to make sure it's still true. Because I'm not perfect.
Becky Mollenkamp: I imagine a lot of us have. Yeah, but there's another thing that I think so many of us can relate to, of like, why did that? What went wrong there? And it's probably because of that, of like, they booked the call. I assume they want to buy. So if it didn't happen now, I guess it's not going to happen instead of it being like, how do we slow this down? How do we get to know each other? There were so many things you said on there that they haven't met me powerfully. That was so good. Love that. To think about, you meeting people powerfully? What does that look like? What does that mean for you? The other piece about you're being, you're doing a lot of activity. How I think so many of us can relate to doing a lot of activity. But have we slowed down to ask ourselves what's actually working? It makes me think of the Pareto's principle 80 -20 rule that like 80 % of our efforts are only bringing in 20 % and like, or, you know, and the other way around. like, where's your, yeah, where's the 20 % of your efforts that actually bring in the 80 %? Why are we not focusing more there? And then the last thing was the people qualifying themselves. That is so important. And that is what is that longer game. Like I think and what I tell my clients all the time and I'm sure you are too, this is a longer play. There's just no way around it. This is not the quick stuff. This is a longer game, but it's gonna feel better and the results are going to probably be much more powerful, more aligned, more perfect fit kind of client. And you're gonna be able to do it over the long term. So thank you.
Allison Davis: I have to say this. I know I can feel we're trying to wrap up, but I have to say this. And this is where my deep beliefs and convictions about what sales gets to be, gets to feel like for everybody involved really butts heads with some of that stale, pale male crap I'm trying to let go of. Because what I want to say, what I or like, organically wanted to just shout from the rooftops when you said all that about how it's gonna take time. What I wanted to say is, so don't wait to start doing it differently. But then we're like, wait, am I urgency? I'm like, bye bye now today, because you're gonna be in pain tomorrow if you don't start now. So, I don't have the answer to that, my friends, but like, you know, but that, think the job is looking at what am I saying, why am I saying it? And I'm saying it because I know the truth, that there are subject matter experts out there who are wrestling with all of this, especially how do I fill my pipeline? How do I sustain this business? And there is organic urgency there because anything that sounds too good to be true 100 % absolutely is if you are selling services B to B. Do not believe the hype. And it is true that the sooner you start, the better you all feel be.
Becky Mollenkamp: I know, well, I hear you, but there's also, I think there's urgency that's false urgency and there's real urgency in this, you know, like I think about a farmer with a garden and he could be like, I'm flush with vegetables right now. Everything's blooming. Why would I bother to plant seeds? Right. But the truth is, he knows the urgency is those are things, those seeds have got to get in the ground because otherwise.
Allison Davis: There's the urgency.
Becky Mollenkamp: I won't have any vegetables in three months. So I better, and we can't stop when we're flush planting seeds. That has to be happening all the time. And that is something I see happen. I'm sure you do too. It gets busy. We feel like we don't have time. We let off the gas on sales and marketing. And then we wonder why six months later we have everything's come to a standstill.
Allison Davis: It's that roller coaster. It's the roller coaster. Yeah, yeah. I want my clients to find the handful of things that they commit to each year that bring in the exact number of new leads they need. It is possible to figure that out. It takes some innovation. It takes some bravery. But you can figure all of that out and then have an invite. And so if you're always doing that handful of things and you're always having an invite of some kind, that is how the garden just every season, the right crops come up. I mean, that's how it happens.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I think that's a great point because you talked about the activity. You can't be planting seeds all the time if you're also doing this and that, right? Like if you're also trying to like build the, be a builder and you're also trying to be, I'm so bad, I can't even think of trades, but like, but yeah, so if you're always trying to all the other things.
Allison Davis: Yeah, no, but here's what well, here's what I want to say too. So if one's if one's vision is to grow a company, you know, if that is the vision does not have to be the vision. Don't get me started on businesses that lead with seven figures or like whatever. know you can't even though I was just on a panel about that. we do get to a point where we have to pick and choose, right? So if we do have a growth vision where I'm so happy that a number of my clients have you is that we have to keep. We have to keep deciding what kind of business we want to have. So when you do, when you are successful with lead generation and sales, you then have big decisions to make. Is it time to get out of delivery so that I can double down on the growth if that's what I want to do? What do want this business to feel like? And I'm so happy to have partners like you for my customers who need to make those really big choices. Because as a I have to give credit even when I said meet people powerfully I'm like Michelle Warner is someone that I just think is the one of the most brilliant business strategists and She talks she talks about meeting people powerfully that is directly from her and the other thing she says all the time that I share with my clients is sequence over strategy don't hire me to help you with sales if you don't know where you wanna go. I won't let you, first of all, send you to Becky first, but you know what I mean? So thank you, Becky, for the work that you do with business owners to help them keep choosing what kind of business they wanna have so that when they do make investments in strategists like me, we can really help them drive their vision and where they want to go because that's where the juice is for all of us and that's why I'm here doing this work because we need them so badly.
Becky Mollenkamp: Sorry, I was muted. How long will I be podcasting? No, no, no, no. I don't know how long I have to podcast before I learn how to unmute myself. I appreciate you saying that because I think very often we, especially when we're in, you talked about those panic moments or we feel the panic moment coming. We start to think, I just need somebody to tell me how to solve this problem. And we rush to hiring the strategist for sales or marketing or messaging or whatever the thing is without knowing because we're setting you up for failure when you don't know what the goal is. Where are we headed? If you have no compass, no direction, you can't point you if you don't know where you're going, you can't point them there. And so I understand that sensation. It feels like I don't want to invest in a coach. What are they even going to do for me? Like, I just want somebody's going to tell me what to do. And then we're going to go do that thing. And they can tell me the exact ROI and all. But it's important work to be thinking about. What is this all for? Because if I don't know what it's all for, then what's the point? So we need to wrap up. We could talk all day. But we are going to have a bonus conversation. That's why I want to make sure we have enough time for that, because I want to talk about referrals. You are amazing with referrals. We've hinted and talked a little bit about referrals in here. So make sure you go subscribe to Feminist Founders Newsletter if you haven't already. The bonus conversation this week will be about referrals and building out your referral networking. Let's finish this with having you tell me about a book that you love maybe around sales, it also doesn't have to be that might be helpful for people.
Allison Davis: That is such a great question. People ask me what sales book I should read and I really have a hard time with that. First of all, I want to say something. I'm not a big reader. I'm just not. 100%. No, but I want to, I feel like I have a book for you. But I do want to say that like, I think it's important to say that. You know, just my neurodivergence and my executive function skills and things, you know, so it's hard. But I brought it. Jill Conrath's Snap selling. You can see I've got many things tabbed in here. There is no perfect business book. There's no perfect sales book. There's I don't agree with everything in here. Jill Conrath, I think she sold printers, which I just think is hilarious. Right. It's like it's so close to Dunder Mifflin and like paper selling anyway. But it's she's she's really got a lot of great things to say. So many subject matter experts who are selling think that it's gonna be the best presentation, the best one, two, three that's gonna win the contract. By the way, that's not always the case, actually. know, really smart, savvy buyers know when they're getting a one, two, three. And they don't want that. There are plenty of buyers that I need to give more credit to. And so what Jill Conrath, think, gets really right, that really cuts to the heart of what a lot of new business owners or subject matter experts five or 10 years in even are getting wrong is that she says sales collateral has no place in sales conversations, no presenting, it is a conversation. She really nails that part. And she says that when we are talking about ourselves, that it needs to be an experience for our customer. And she's right. And that is what I help my clients to engineer. What is the experience you want to give your buyer? So Snap Selling by Jill Conrath, I think is if I had to choose a sales book for you, that's what it would be. And you meeting everybody.
Becky Mollenkamp: And then an organization that's doing good work in the world that you support or want to highlight.
Allison Davis: First thought best thought here. I just emailed animal kind in Hudson, New York. I'm in the Hudson Valley. In addition to you know, showing up for humanity. I also have a thing for animals. so animal kind is a cat rescue. You know, thousands of animals are put to death every day in this country. And yet we still buy designer cats and dogs and things like that. And so animal kind in Hudson, New York, if you want to support a small scrappy, they will never turn you away. They will always pick up the phone and help an animal. That's my local charity that we support.
Becky Mollenkamp: I also have a soft spot for animals. was telling you my dog was in my lap for an hour before we got on the front. So I get it. And I will make a donation to Animal Kind and ask others to do the same, to say thank you for you generously giving up your time. And everyone, make sure you go subscribe because we're going to have that bonus conversation about referrals in just a minute, which we'll get this week for the newsletter subscribers. So thank you, Allison.
Allison Davis: Thank you. Thank you so much, Becky. What a pleasure.