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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Julie: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, conversations about leadership, culture, wellbeing, and how we create schools where people can truly thrive. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Joanna Povall. Joanna has over 30 years of leadership experience in schools in the uk, France, and UAE.
[00:00:18] Alongside working as a principal, Joanna supports school improvement around the world as a lead improvement partner for [00:00:25] the Council of British International Schools, awarded the TESS International School Principal of the Year 24 25. Joanna is also author of Kind Leadership, which was released by Crown House in Spring 2026.
[00:00:38] The Chase Framework content in the book has been shortlisted for the tes International School Staff Wellbeing Initiative of 2025. It was great to chat to Joanna about her book amongst other things. [00:00:50] Her book is a great read for anyone in a leadership position in school, whether that's a leader of the school, a soon to be leader of the school, or actually leaders in the classroom too.
[00:01:01] In this episode, we discuss what is meant by leading with kindness, misconceptions around kindness, as well as exploring the chase frameworks that Joanna has created. We also discuss the importance of deep [00:01:15] thinking, even when it's mistaken for doing nothing. And Belinda Carlisle enjoy.
[00:01:26] Hi Joanna. Thank you so much for joining us today. How are you?
[00:01:30] Joanna: I'm very good, thanks. It's a pleasure to be here, Julie. Thank you.
[00:01:32] Julie: So Joanna, you are actually in Abu Dhabi and so I think I started our conversation a few minutes ago by wishing [00:01:40] you a good morning. I assume it's not good morning anymore for you.
[00:01:42] Joanna: It's called to pass two in the afternoon.
[00:01:46] Julie: And what's the weather like there today, Joanna? Just to make us all feel a bit jealous.
[00:01:50] Joanna: It's about, you might not be jealous. It's about 50 degrees. And if I tell you one of my kids came in this morning, I actually took a photograph. He's wearing a puffer jacket, zipped up to the hilt, and I said to him, are you cold?
[00:02:02] And he said, yes. And at that point it was about [00:02:05] 46.
[00:02:05] Julie: Wow. Okay. That's incredible. Okay. A far cry from your Durham days, Joanna. Because Joanna and I literally just, obviously I knew Joanna was out in um, Abu Dhabi and this is the first time we've actually spoken, uh, to each other. And we both heard each other's accents and thought, oh well there's some northerners.
[00:02:26] And quickly learned that, you know, we lived [00:02:30] and have relatives probably within a, I don't know, a 15 square mile radius.
[00:02:35] Joanna: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Scary. It's a very small world.
[00:02:39] Julie: It's another northern episode everyone. This always seems to happen, but this is a good thing. So thank you. Joanna. You are currently principal of the Wheels International School in Abu Dhabi and your book Kind Leadership was [00:02:55] published by Crown House.
[00:02:55] Just came out recently and I know's, been a sellout on Amazon, hasn't it?
[00:03:00] Joanna: It has. Oh my goodness. Yeah, I'm getting complaints from Australia and America 'cause people can't get it 'cause it's sold out.
[00:03:06] Julie: Incredible. That's incredible. I wonder, Joanna, if we could kind of take you back to the beginning. I know on the very first page of the book you say something like that you never set out to be a leader and [00:03:20] you would not believe how many accidental leaders that I speak to.
[00:03:23] But can you tell us a bit just about your journey and how you found yourself leading schools and writing about leadership?
[00:03:29] Joanna: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say from day one, I was an accidental leader. So I think I got conned by the school that I went to. So I, my first job was in a school in Manchester and when I went for the interviews, they were saying, um, I'm a religious studies teacher.
[00:03:42] And I turned up for the interview, 22 years [00:03:45] old, still doing my PGCE. And they said to me, um, you are in the religious studies department, religious studies and PSEs in the same department. Here's the leader of PSHE. And I was like, oh, really? Nice to meet you. Thank you very much. Got the job. Turned upon the first day and they went, oh yeah.
[00:03:58] By the way, this is my fault for not doing my homework properly. This is a message for people. Do your homework when you apply to a school. I turned up and the head of PSHE said, we're a department of two [00:04:10] and you are the only specialist in religious studies. We've got a history teacher in English teacher.
[00:04:15] A maths teacher, the head of your, the deputy head all teach re You need to come up with a schema work because we haven't got one. You need to do all of the lesson plans, do all the photocopies for them. They'll turn up the morning, give them the photocopies, give them the lesson plan and they'll deliver it.
[00:04:30] And I did that for two years. And at the end of it I remember thinking, you know, when [00:04:35] you don't know any different, so I just thought, hold on a minute. And then I started hearing from people, what do you mean you are doing all the schemes of work and all of the lesson planning and teaching all of the GCSE and, and you're not, you are doing everything.
[00:04:46] You might as well be a head of department. And at the time we had a, a young daughter and I thought, do you know what I, I think I could do this. I'm doing it anyway. I'm not getting paid for it. And, and I'm not, I haven't got the title or anything, but I'm actually doing it all day, [00:05:00] every day. And because we had a little one, we decided we'd move back up to the northeast to be closer to my family.
[00:05:05] Applied for a deputy head of department job and got that, and again, didn't do my homework properly or, or wasn't told the whole truth in the interview. Uh, really sadly, the lady who was head of department, her husband was terminally ill. So I started as the deputy head of department and within quite a short space of time, they said [00:05:25] she's going off on compassionate leave for however many weeks.
[00:05:28] It was surprise, you are now head of department. So again, ended up in, in a bigger leadership role and from there I became, um, a deputy head of house there. Then I thought. I'm getting a bit tired now of not getting the kudos of having the actual title and the money for it. So I applied for a school in Durham and I got a senior teacher role there, and I stayed there for [00:05:50] five years.
[00:05:50] Really enjoyed working there. Then the whole family, we'd had another one by then. So we had two daughters. Whole family moved to France and we were there for 15 years. I was deputy head for school there. And then six years ago we moved to the UAE and we are here now in Abu Dhabi. Long way from Durham.
[00:06:08] Julie: Yeah. Long way from Durham, via Manchester, via France, and now in Abu Dhabi. That's fantastic. [00:06:15] And yeah, you know, the, those leadership journeys, I think becoming a leader rather than setting out to be a leader. There's something to be said to that, that learning through experience as well, isn't there? So before we talk about the book and before we kind of get into what kindness is it and kind of, um, this sort of framework, if you like, that, that you've created, I think it'll be fair to say, because again, in that [00:06:40] kind of opening chapter, you talk about that you didn't set out to be a leader and you didn't set out to kind of be a kind leader or lead with kindness.
[00:06:50] You didn't actually used to be a big fan of kindness, I don't think, reading kind of that opening chapter. And in your book you said that you can see it now as one of the most important leadership qualities. Was there any [00:07:05] defining moment where you felt like that? Or was this just kind of cumulative knowing about kindness?
[00:07:13] Joanna: I think it was cumulative knowing, and, and I always say to people, I'm not a naturally kind person. I'm very demanding. I'm a massive perfectionist. I've got a real problem. I'm a huge workaholic. People with those character traits don't tend to be very kind, because I've got a quite demanding expectations.
[00:07:29] And I [00:07:30] think over time, learning more about the humans, behind the people who are working in a team, everybody's got things going on. And I think it was, I, I'm quite, you know, I can do it and I can do it now. And I think the defining moment for me, where it really made sense was a lady who I worked with, who's actually from Newcastle, who I worked with in France.
[00:07:49] We used, I used to say we would sit together and I would be going, right, we need to do this and we can do it by the end of the week. And she'd say, no, we [00:07:55] can't do it by the end of the week. We need to give people two weeks notice to make sure they understand what they need to do. You need to explain it properly.
[00:08:01] You need to explain why. And I was going, yeah, I can do that in two minutes, and they can have it done by tomorrow. And she'd be like, no. And I was like, no, no, you can. And she used to say to me, oh, Joanna, you can, but not everybody's like you. And that phrase is in my head all of the time because I'll just [00:08:20] immediately go, it reminds me to be kind because my gut reaction is, come on, you could do it now, or you could stay at work till six o'clock.
[00:08:26] No, they've got the kids that need to pick up from school. Not everybody's like you. And I think that really was a kind of scales falling from my eyes moment, hearing that phrase really brought it home to me that you have to think about people.
[00:08:40] Julie: Yeah. And I think it's that kind of, I suppose that compassionate isn't it, [00:08:45] is recognising that what's difficult for other people isn't necessary.
[00:08:49] It doesn't match your own experience. And being able to see that, and I suppose that's where that kindness comes in, isn't it? So I suppose really helpful that in that circumstance you did have that, that colleague.
[00:09:01] Joanna: Very much so.
[00:09:02] Julie: Yeah. He was able just to reflect it back to you and just say, yeah, but not everybody works like you.
[00:09:08] Not everybody does it like you, and that doesn't make [00:09:10] them less than it makes them different. So kind of put that into the mix. So your book kind, leadership, leading Skills with empathy, honesty, and Impact. Why this book? Why now? Why do you think it's needed in education?
[00:09:23] Joanna: Oh, I really think it's needed in education at the moment.
[00:09:27] And I think we spend a lot of time in schools thinking about the kids, and rightly so, the kids are at the centre of everything. For me, you know, I really am. It sounds a bit glib to [00:09:35] say, but I really am a student centred person. Everything that I do is for the good of the students. But I think in that we've forgotten how to treat the adults in schools, and I think.
[00:09:46] We've got a lot of pressures in education. It's, it's a tough job. You know, we've got rising student needs in schools, and this is the same around the world. It doesn't matter if you're in the UAE, if you are anywhere in the world. In the uk we've got a recruitment and retention crisis in [00:10:00] teaching increased scrutiny from bodies, from governments.
[00:10:03] We've got, you know, staff are emotionally exhausted. We've got a lot of things going on. And in that our leaders are also stretched beyond capacity sometimes. And I think sometimes when you're in that situation, the gut reaction of the leader is, you know, they've got all of these pressures, they kind of default to be in controlling or aggressive, or there's a sense of urgency and [00:10:25] fear.
[00:10:25] And it's not because they're being unkind it, it's because the pressure's just relentless. And what I thought was, stop, you know, just take a step back. Let's look at what's going on and let's be kind.
[00:10:37] Julie: Yeah. And you know, it goes back to, and it's certainly sort of our perspective, it's still human is the best resource for our children and young people are our teachers, our adults, and making sure that [00:10:50] A, that they're looked after, but b, that leaders are, and that leaders recognise how, you know, when they are possibly stuck in that high level stress with all those demands and pressures, then that might translate as, as you say, unkind or controlling or demanding.
[00:11:05] But it's usually coming from a good place as well, isn't it? It's a reaction.
[00:11:10] Joanna: It is, definitely. And I, and I think I've put in the book quite early on, [00:11:15] there's nothing revolutionary in there. We all know it, but for me it's not about knowing it. It's so you are actually doing it. You know, look in the mirror, reflect honestly and genuinely look at the reflection questions.
[00:11:27] I know, you know, that communication's important, but have you thought about how you're doing it? And I think that for me is the important thing with the book.
[00:11:34] Julie: Yeah, I really like those reflection questions. 'cause I feel like that's what they did, didn't they? They kind of [00:11:40] give a bit of feeling and it's very, it's a very honest, very authentic, you are very honest in it, which again, I feel like makes it really readable and really relatable.
[00:11:50] Um, but those reflection questions, you know, allow people to then do that as well, don't they? So, again, I still wanna purchase over here and come to that when we're talking about kind leadership then, and we're talking about [00:12:05] kindness in the book. You sort of kind of give some sort of definitions around it.
[00:12:08] Then you also talk about some of the biggest misconceptions. Can we just talk about them just for for a moment?
[00:12:16] Joanna: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I've got a massive list. We could do a whole session on this.
[00:12:19] Julie: Give us your list.
[00:12:20] Joanna: Well, it started off with, believe it or not, Al Capone. So Al Capone's quotes don't mistake. My kindness for weakness was in my head [00:12:30] when I was thinking about kind leadership.
[00:12:32] And I think that's the biggest misconception. And I think for me what that is, is people mistake being nice for being kind. And it's not the same. So if you are being nice, you people pleasing, you know, you wanna keep the status quo, you don't want to upset people, that's not kind. Sometimes you need to tell people what's actually going on, you know?
[00:12:53] And I think, so mistaking [00:12:55] kindness for weakness is definitely the number one thing for me. And again, people think it's gonna cause burnout. You know, if you're being nice all the time and, and, you know, you can't do that. You can't be kind all the time you can because people, again, are, are mistaken being kind for being nice.
[00:13:10] The other one, I, I did the, uh, cobis, uh, annual conference last year and it fascinated me because I, I actually presented the Chase framework there for the first [00:13:20] time. And before the session, they've got this little app that you can ask questions for. And there were two questions that really struck an nerve with me.
[00:13:26] One was, how can you be kind and hold people to account? Absolutely you can. And the next one was that this one may be doubly angry. Is it not just a woman? No it's not. Some of the most unkind people I have worked with have been of the female gender and some of the kindest [00:13:45] have been male. So it's absolutely not that.
[00:13:47] And then just the old faithfuls, that won't work for me, that won't work in my school. You know, it's not worth being kind if people don't reciprocate there. There are so many misconceptions that it just blows my mind.
[00:14:01] Julie: Yeah, and I think they're a good starting point, aren't they? If somebody's kind of wanting to access the book, but kind of thinking it's, maybe it's not for them.
[00:14:08] Turn to that page. I can't remember what [00:14:10] page it is, and kind of read through them first. And yeah. That's interesting about the female trait, isn't it? That, that people think it's a, a kind of soft skill in a 'cause female, like when you do the research around females, we know that females have more of a capacity to, instead of fight or flight to tend and befriend.
[00:14:30] So we know that, but, but that isn't kind of a bad, you know, it, [00:14:35] it's not a fixed trait, is it? That, that everybody's gonna definitely not go down that route. So that's really interesting. Um, and that was the one about, um, it being reciprocated.
[00:14:45] Joanna: Yeah. All the time. You know, I was really kind to that person and they didn't, they didn't appreciate it.
[00:14:51] They didn't say thank you. If you're expecting a thank you in leadership, it's not gonna come. You know, you'll be a long time waiting for it. So I think it, and or if you think you're gonna be liked in leadership, [00:15:00] it, it's not gonna happen. So it's getting that outta your mind that you're not there to be liked and, and just be kind.
[00:15:07] Julie: Yeah. It's like when you let somebody out in the traffic, isn't it? And they'd all wave back like getting angry about it and you know, it's like, just do it because it's the right thing to do as opposed to
[00:15:18] Joanna: Exactly.
[00:15:18] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. Or as I tell my daughters, you know, just empty the dishwasher 'cause it's the right thing to do.
[00:15:23] Nobody's gonna give you a [00:15:25] round of applause for the rest of your life. Every time you empty the dishwasher or say thank you.
[00:15:29] Joanna: Integrity. And I'm gonna tell you a story about that as well. A friend of mine told me that she was in her car with her husband. Her husband let somebody out. He wasn't concentrating on the person.
[00:15:41] He let out let them out. And he went, well, that's charming. Didn't even say thank you. She turned to him. She went, he did. He raised his hand to say [00:15:50] thank you and you didn't see. So again, sometimes when you were expecting a thank you, maybe there was a thank you and you didn't see.
[00:15:57] Julie: Absolutely. Okay. So let's talk about the Chase framework.
[00:16:01] So the Chase framework, um, shortlisted for the ta, international School stuff, wellbeing Initiative. It's obviously something that you've developed, that you speak about and, and kind of forms up the central [00:16:15] part of the book really. And the way that I see it, it's not like a a tick list. It's not a kind of, right, am I doing all these?
[00:16:22] It's more just like, yes, framework feels like the right phrase, maybe you have something different for it. And what I really liked about this is it's just really is accessible. It's like, I don't know, the five ways to wellbeing. It's like when we've got something that's neatly packaged, it makes it much easier to do and [00:16:40] easier to hold in our minds.
[00:16:41] And I think that's what this does. So really what I'd like you to do, if that's all right, is to just kind of walk us through each element and, and talk about what it means and what that looks like. So if we start with communication, then you've mentioned it already. We all know communication is, is kind of important.
[00:16:58] What does kind communication look like? Just talk to me about that element.
[00:17:03] Joanna: I think obviously, you know, [00:17:05] we know clear, consistent. It's not just about the words that you say, it's about how you listen. It's about what your face looks like when you're talking to people. It's about the place, you know, that it's, it's all of these things.
[00:17:17] I keep saying to people, can you stop grabbing me in the corridor? 'cause it's not the right place to hold a meeting. You know, so the communication's bigger than just the words that you're saying, but for me it's predictable, transparent, [00:17:30] tell people the why. Calm, steady, managing change as well through communication.
[00:17:36] People don't like change, especially teachers. And when you do need to change something, people need to know the why. And I think for me, that's what's really important. Being clear, being consistent, managing people's expectations with your communication.
[00:17:50] Julie: Yeah, I mean there's lots in that, isn't there? And I think that change piece is, [00:17:55] you know, recognising that any change feels like threat.
[00:17:58] That that changes a good thing or a bad thing. And certainly I've spoken to lots of leaders going through things like mergers, going through kind of schools joining, cultures joining, and really the, the heart of it is communication, isn't it? Communicating the why, keeping people in so they're not in that kind of threat state and that sort of survival mode.
[00:18:19] But I [00:18:20] like a few more things about what you said there. It's your face and the, your place. I feel like that's got a nice little ring about it, hasn't it? Yeah. Grabbing people in the corridor or doing that thing where literally, and I've, I've had this happen to me a lot when I was kind of a senior manager and I'm sure it happens much more when you're kind of at the top of the tree.
[00:18:37] You literally have got your foot out the car, in the car park.
[00:18:40] Joanna: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Definitely you can't even get out of the car or, or I'm [00:18:45] trying to get in the car. 'cause I've got a meeting and I've literally had people following me and I'm going, no, I need to go. I've got a meeting with the whole government, you know, I'm gonna be late.
[00:18:51] Oh, it's just two minutes. And I'm like, I haven't got two minutes. I'm already late. And the other thing as well is I have a DHD and I forget. So for me, if somebody grabs me in the corridor, I can have an entire conversation and go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And people say to me, you know, this is, when I think about what we were talking about earlier, people say to me, you're so [00:19:10] efficient.
[00:19:10] And I'm going, no, I'm not. I'm not efficient. When I was talking about kindness and knowing how bad I am, I know how bad I am. If somebody sends me an email, I will respond immediately. Because if I don't, I forget. So people are like, oh, you're so efficient. But if I have a conversation the corridor, I'll go, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:19:27] And then I carry on walking, somebody else stops me. And I've forgotten what you've said.
[00:19:31] Julie: Yeah. And I think that's that part of that communication, isn't it? [00:19:35] Communicate how you operate as a leader.
[00:19:37] Joanna: Absolutely.
[00:19:38] Julie: And you kind of just explaining that to me in a nutshell, in 30 seconds, if I then worked with you, that changes our relationship and dynamic already because I already understand it.
[00:19:48] And, and that's where you can kind of then reduce kind of conflicts, misunderstandings, and all of that sort of stuff. And as I was just thinking of what you were saying, you know, you're running into it. Somebody, the other place [00:20:00] that I've had it happen and seen it happen is when you just nip into the loom.
[00:20:03] Joanna: Yes. All the time. All the time. Yeah. You stand there washing your hands and somebody says, can I just talk to you? And I'm like, yeah,
[00:20:12] Julie: let's get better. And I think like what you're saying there, you know, I, I'm not sure who this book is written for me and it's book, it's written for leaders, but it's not really, is it?
[00:20:21] Joanna: Somebody said to me the other day, and it was really interesting, I was in [00:20:25] London and doing this conference and there was a lady who's lovely, who was the technical support lady, and she came to me afterwards and she said, do you know what? You've got something really special here, but it's not just for schools.
[00:20:37] She said, you could write it for industry, you could write it for business. And then she said, and this, this, I thought, oh, this is a good one. Relationships. She said, you could take the chase framework into marriage, guidance, [00:20:50] counselling, communication, all. And I was went, oh my goodness. She's right. A hundred
[00:20:54] Julie: percent.
[00:20:55] It's generic. It is a generic framework. No, I love that. That's really insightful, isn't it?
[00:21:02] Joanna: Yeah. I thought it was great. It's, I only know about school. Someone just wrote about school, don't know about anything else.
[00:21:08] Julie: Sell it, sell it on, let everybody else buy it off you. But yeah, that communication, I think, and that and sort of where my perspective [00:21:15] was like, we all need to get better at that.
[00:21:18] Like let's, everybody in the organisation, if anybody's listening, they're not a leader. Let's all make it a pledge not to stop other colleagues or our leaders when they're on their way to a meeting, when they're just nip into the loo and let's schedule Im proper time where you can have a chat. And that's that place.
[00:21:34] Because I think when you stop people in the court and feel like I'm labouring the point, nobody, it's just tickles me. But like when you [00:21:40] stop people in the corridor, like their face isn't always gonna go into the right shape.
[00:21:44] Joanna: No, exactly. And, and I think another important thing about, um, about kindness is setting boundaries as well for yourself to say exactly what you've just said.
[00:21:53] There's nothing wrong with saying, do you know what? Can you not talk to me in the corridor Please. You know, can we make this a boundary that we're not, you know, I know some people like the word non-negotiable, but I call it a boundary actually. It's not the [00:22:05] right place to stop me because I'm usually running to get somewhere.
[00:22:07] So just think about that carefully.
[00:22:10] Julie: Yeah, let's get all, get better at that. Love that. Okay, h Honesty. Why is honesty so important?
[00:22:17] Joanna: Honesty is important. And you'll have seen in the book, I used to be terrible and it was Belinda Carl Elu put me, right? So I was the queen, the queen. She in Sunland tonight, I was [00:22:30] messaging her this afternoon.
[00:22:31] Um, so she's opening for take that tonight in Sunland. Um, she's been to Linda's farm and she loves it. But for me, I said to her, we we're very close friends and we used to go out every Friday and a particular lady used to come up and she would say to me. Oh, do you fancy your coffee tomorrow? And I go, oh, I'm so sorry.
[00:22:51] I can't do tomorrow. I've got to go to the doctors in the morning [00:22:55] and she'd go, oh, can we do another time? And I go, oh, I don't know when I'm free at the minute. I'll see you another time. Thank you very much. She's Give me a ring and she'd move away. Then the next time we'd see you, she'd be like, are you free on Sunday for lunch?
[00:23:05] Do you fancy coming around? And I'd go, oh, I can't do Sunday. I've got something already. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And one day she turned to me, 'cause we know each other well enough to do this. And she went, why'd you do that? And I said, what? She said, you are lying. And I went, no, no, no. I'm not lying. It's little white [00:23:20] lies I'm getting.
[00:23:20] And she said, no, no, no, you're telling a lie. And she said, just say no thank you. Full stop. You don't need to say why. You don't need to say, I don't really wanna see you. You just say no thank you. Or I'm too tired. I'm not in the mood. Can't do this weekend. I just need to chill out. Tell the truth. And she said, because the problem is I'm watching you lie.
[00:23:40] I know you haven't got something on on Saturday. I know you haven't got something on on Sunday. I am [00:23:45] watching you lie. And you are losing credibility with me. Because when I ring you and say, can I please meet you tomorrow night? And you go, oh sorry, I can't do tomorrow night. I'm gonna think you're lying.
[00:23:56] And it really struck me that I was doing it all the time. I thought I was being nice, but I wasn't being kind. I was trying to let people down gently by telling little white lies. And it's not acceptable. And I think. You [00:24:10] don't have to be cruel to be kind. You don't have to be really blunt. You could be honest with compassion and give truthful humane feedback.
[00:24:18] Make sure you're honest early enough as well. 'cause I think one of the mistakes we make with honesty and communication is letting things drag on too long. And just by modelling how you would want people to have integrity as well. It's important.
[00:24:30] Julie: Yeah. Sorry, I got, did get a bit lost with the Belinda Carlisle and the Linda fan [00:24:35] and the, uh, take that there.
[00:24:36] Um, it was Belinda Carlisle, your friend.
[00:24:39] Joanna: Yeah, yeah. I've known her for, oh my goodness, 21 years. She's my daughter's godmother.
[00:24:43] Julie: I just had to read, I had to read that 'cause I thought, did I miss a step out there? And you were at, no. Okay. Belinda Carlisle is your friend. What a great story. Okay. But yes, that kind of in, in authenticity I suppose.
[00:24:57] And as, and it undermines other [00:25:00] relationships if people witness it. I think that's really interesting because if people were witnessing that, then actually you get to be seen as, you know, untrustworthy, I suppose. And
[00:25:10] Joanna: Absolutely. And trust's important in teams, especially in schools. So if you're seen all the time to be sort of backpedalling and, and little white lies, it's really not good.
[00:25:20] Julie: Yeah, no, it's not good as well. And I think it's okay. And I think it comes back to what you said about [00:25:25] boundaries maybe is in the communication. You know, I think maybe it's even not just always coming up with excuses, just saying, I don't know. I need some time to decompress here. That's at the end of, um, I'm with the governors, I'm with the policy.
[00:25:39] That's not gonna work. You know, can we therefore, or whatever that looks like, we're not very good at doing that, are we?
[00:25:45] Joanna: No, I think it's being self-aware as well. And I, I, I sometimes with my team, [00:25:50] they're used to me now sometimes when I can feel my heckles rising or I'm feeling a bit, you know, overwhelmed with something, I'll just go, can I sleep on it?
[00:25:59] And my team is so used to it now, I just said, you know what, can we just stop? I need to sleep on this. And then the next morning I'm probably in a better frame of mind and I can come in and we can have a proper professional dialogue because I'm not feeling this isn't the right time to deal with this.
[00:26:14] But [00:26:15] again, that's being honest enough for people to say, I'm not actually in the right frame of mind to deal with this at the minute. Can we come back to it tomorrow? And there's nothing wrong in doing that. You don't have to make a decision instantly,
[00:26:25] Julie: but that's gorgeous modelling what permission you're giving to other people in doing that.
[00:26:29] You know, permission for other people to not have the answers instantly.
[00:26:32] Joanna: Absolutely.
[00:26:33] Julie: I think that's gorgeous in just saying it's okay to pause and like take a bit of time to reflect and, and come back to [00:26:40] it. Um, so again, that's that kind of building of psychological safety isn't it, builds and of trust of which honesty is at the, the heart.
[00:26:47] Okay. Accountability is the next one. So accountability kind is not necessarily words we put together. Um, tell me about accountability. How can we do that whilst remaining kind?
[00:26:58] Joanna: I think it's about showing people respect professionally. And I think accountability is the kind thing to do. And if you're [00:27:05] not holding people accountable, it leads to a feeling of unfairness.
[00:27:09] And I dunno if it's the A DHD in me, but I can't cope with cultures where things are not fair. And it builds resentment when people can see. So if you see that every single day, your colleague coming to work 10 minutes late, if they're not held accountable and nothing's done about it, why are you coming to work on time?
[00:27:26] And I think for me, the kind thing to do is to [00:27:30] hold people to account and I think consistently. Boundaries. Again, keeping it consistently is really important for everybody and addressing behaviour that would harm the school, harm the team, and just modelling responsibility for yourself. because you have to hold yourself accountable as well.
[00:27:45] And, and be honest when you've made mistakes, there's nothing wrong with doing that. And I think for me, it's possibly one of the most important things in school is accountability. You know, we hold the [00:27:55] kids to account, you didn't do your homework, are you in registration? You came to school late. We have to do the same for ourselves and for the adults in school as well, because we need people to have professional respect for each other.
[00:28:06] Julie: Yeah. I think, didn't you tell the story in the book where you kind of almost gave everybody a whole school attention?
[00:28:12] Joanna: Oh yeah. Uh, every single chapter, I, I called it the epic fail and honestly, yeah. And, and it was because some, some [00:28:20] people, I mean, we tell people not to do this with the kids, don't give a blanket, you know, if somebody in your class is naughty, don't keep the whole class in it.
[00:28:26] Break. I did that so, you know, I was gonna let everybody go home early and we'd have this big thing about, you know, it's the end of term. People are busy with their reports, let's let everybody go home early and not have a staff meeting on Wednesday and go, surprise, you can go home. And then I was like, right, these people are being late today.
[00:28:44] But again, that [00:28:45] was me misunderstanding because people have been complaining about other colleagues being late. So I went, well, nobody's going home early, but totally wrong thing to do. So I, I am human too. Like I said, I've put an epic fail in everyone and that's just one of the millions of stories of things where I've done something stupid.
[00:29:04] But yeah,
[00:29:04] Julie: I love the epic fails. I wanna come to them in a minute because I think, you know, that, that, that [00:29:10] kind of feeds into this honesty and communication, I think, and that accountability, like by adding these epic fields in there, right. Self-esteem. Then, I don't think it was in this chapter that you talk about your experience with the art teacher, but in my head I was thinking about like people self-esteem, a leader's self-esteem and you know, what we can inadvertently do to children, which happened to you with your [00:29:35] artistic prowess and, and a teacher's comment.
[00:29:37] Talk to me about self-esteem and that, that element of chase,
[00:29:41] Joanna: I think self-esteem in your self as a leader. It. Pit leaders who are insecure and don't have a very healthy self-esteem can make mistakes because of insecurity. But we're also responsible, you were saying about the kids. I'll say it again.
[00:29:56] Quite often in schools, we do a lot of things for the children that we [00:30:00] forget to do with the adults. And the example I always use as staff meetings. So if I walked in to do a lesson observation and watched a teacher talk at the class for 60 minutes, that would be the most horrendous lesson observation in the universe.
[00:30:12] But we do it to our teachers every Monday night or every Wednesday night where we sit and talk at them for an hour. And I think for me, this is another thing. We, we work a lot on the wellbeing and the self-esteem of our children, but we also need to [00:30:25] do that for ourselves and for our staff. And I think it helps you to regulate your emotions, avoiding defensiveness and making stable decisions that aren't fear-based again.
[00:30:36] And, and I think if we can keep people's self-esteem high, I think it helps general happiness in the workplace as well. I, I think it helps people's wellbeing to have a healthy self-esteem. '
[00:30:46] Julie: cause if people are feeling good and they're thriving and they feel like they're doing [00:30:50] a, you know, a good job, they've got self-belief and that's who we wanna teach our children, isn't it?
[00:30:55] Joanna: Absolutely. You would hope so
[00:30:57] Julie: isn't we? Don't, we don't want people questioning themselves. Like we want people kind of, um, and, and so yes, it's good for them as, as individuals, as adults. It's good for the whole culture and the community, isn't it? If people just feel good about what they're doing and that isn't misplaced [00:31:15] either.
[00:31:15] That's kind of in that context of authenticity, honesty, being able to say when people are struggling, but, but generally feeling good about what they do and how they do it and, and kind of everybody kind of supporting and building that. Okay. Our last one was ego. And I, I found that really interesting and, and almost like if we, thinking about self-esteem maybe is ego kind of can become part of self-esteem.
[00:31:39] Um, [00:31:40] and but ego, isn't it a bad thing necessarily, is it, but it's, it's problematic if it's left unchecked. So tell us more about that balance.
[00:31:47] Joanna: I'll, I'll tell you, ego was the one I started with first. That was the first idea. Yeah, that was the first one that came into my head. And I'll tell you, if I ever did a PhD, I'm gonna have to excuse myself.
[00:31:59] I am a principal, I'm a head teacher of the school, but my PhD is entitled The Ego of the Head Teacher. [00:32:05] Um, because I think it's something that, exactly what you said, there's nothing wrong with having a healthy ego 'cause that helps you to make difficult decisions because again, it, it leads into self as a high self-esteem.
[00:32:15] But it really is a silent saboteur in leadership. And I've seen so many times people listening more than they speak, people taking credit for the people's work, uh, making decisions that are important for themselves and not necessarily for the [00:32:30] school. One of the biggest things I see, particularly in international schools, when people start in a job.
[00:32:37] They fire the whole leadership team and bring their own people in. And you know, it's like, here are my yes men, you know, they just surround themselves with people who never tell them that they're wrong and their ego gets absolutely outta control. And, and that's dangerous. My husband calls it McGarvey syndrome.
[00:32:53] So he, he always looks at [00:32:55] Robert Mcy and that, you know, how he started and then he surrounded himself with all of these people. And, and it's hard in leadership because if you haven't got healthy self-esteem and you haven't got healthy accountability and honesty and communication with your staff, you haven't got good professional dialogue and you're not getting that feedback that helps you to grow and your ego gets outta control.
[00:33:15] And then it becomes to a point where people can't do that anymore because your ego's [00:33:20] so big that you won't listen to feedback.
[00:33:22] Julie: Yeah. Uh, so much in what you say there. And I think, um, I think that can be an easy trap to fall into as well, can't it? Because there is that responsibility to be the leader and be the decision maker and make, you can see how that feeds into ego and can conflict.
[00:33:39] And then it goes back to that self-awareness. Doesn't it being self-aware enough to recognise when [00:33:45] you've maybe stepped over that threshold and it's become less about everyone and more about
[00:33:51] Joanna: the
[00:33:51] Julie: self.
[00:33:52] Joanna: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And, and, and again, I see it quite often, uh, that I, I can tell you a story about when I was working in a particular school and I'd done some work for somebody and he literally had given me no feedback and the people who were coming into the school to look at this massive amount of [00:34:10] work that I'd done hours and hours and hours of work o over days.
[00:34:14] And I stood, I could see them walking up the driveway of the school and I said, was it all right? And he went, oh, I haven't even looked at it. And he said, but uh, if it's not, I'll blame you. If it's good, I'll say I did it. Um, yeah. And, and so when I look at ego, I'm going, okay, you know, this is in a nutshell.[00:34:35]
[00:34:35] Julie: Yeah. I can just see out the corner of my eye. Sorry, I've just spied that You have Chase on a poster there.
[00:34:41] Joanna: I do. It's all around the school. Yeah.
[00:34:43] Julie: Is there a hope, do you hope that kind of, obviously we want people to read the book and buy the book and, and there's loads more to it, but do you, do you kind of foresee this framework as being something that belongs on a poster on the wall?
[00:34:56] Joanna: I want it to be lived.
[00:34:57] Julie: I know we want it to be lived. I know we want it [00:35:00] to, but it's that part of that.
[00:35:02] Joanna: It really is. And I've already, it kind of, well, upsets me. That's too strong a word. People contact me and they say, you know, would you be happy to talk to my, our school? And I'm like, yeah, absolutely, I will.
[00:35:13] How much do you charge? And I'm going, nothing. Like, I'll, I'll talk to your school for free. So I went and spent, uh, some time in a school in Dubai. And that's been lovely because they keep in touch and say, you know, we, every [00:35:25] meeting we sit down with Chase and we go, you know, have we, have we communicated this well to our staff?
[00:35:30] We're being honest. Do we hold people accountable? Oh, well that's really lovely. And then another colleague from Muscat said in their meetings, now they say, hold on a minute, are we being kind? And I think for me that's just, that's what I want. I just want to make a little difference in the world. And if people want to take the framework and [00:35:50] use it again, I've uh, met with some people from Winchester, from a school there online and I was saying, you know, all about the Chase framework.
[00:35:57] They're like, oh, great. So I think for me, I just want to make a difference in the world and just remind people that being kind is a good thing to be in leadership and nothing to be frightened of.
[00:36:07] Julie: Yeah. Love it. We need t-shirts, Joanna. Okay. Can we just go [00:36:15] back to the epic fills and, and as you said, they're included all the way through and they, they add that authenticity.
[00:36:22] Is there one particular failure that taught you most about leadership?
[00:36:25] Joanna: Oh, God. There's too many. Every day there's something else that I do wrong. I make mistakes all the time. I think I'll tell you the one that's in the book, which is about somebody asking if they could please, uh, their husband had [00:36:40] booked some tickets and could they have time off?
[00:36:43] And this was a big mistake, and this is my fault entirely. I stupidly believed that there was such a thing as secrets in the staff room. There aren't. And I said, you can. I will sanction that, but you can't tell anybody. That person then went out, told their friend, don't tell anybody, but Joanna's just said that I can go.
[00:37:04] And [00:37:05] then by the time it was the end of the day, it got around the entire staff. They weren't angry with her. They were angry with me. And, and I think that taught me a lot, that you need to be always honest and upfront and again, have boundaries. You know, I had a choice to say, no, you can't go, sorry, it's your husband's fault for messing up, for buying a ticket for something midweek.
[00:37:25] Or I had the choice to say, yes you can. But if I said, yes, you can, then everybody [00:37:30] has to have the right to go.
[00:37:31] Julie: Yes.
[00:37:32] Joanna: Because you have to be fair. So I think that for me was probably the biggest learning experience.
[00:37:37] Julie: Yeah. She wasn't gonna see Belinda Carlisle, was she?
[00:37:40] Joanna: No.
[00:37:43] Julie: We'll make an exception for Belinda Carlisle, uh, funds. But yeah, no, and again, you, you know, like, and that inherently feels like it's a kind thing to do. What you did for her was lovely and, you know, but, [00:37:55] but as you say, goes back to that fairness and that respect and, um, you know, accountability. It kind of doesn't fit in with all of that, does it?
[00:38:05] And honesty.
[00:38:06] Joanna: Exactly. Yeah. And if you ask somebody to keep a secret, yeah. You're not being honest, are you, you, you're not prepared to stand up and hold yourself accountable. So I did the wrong thing.
[00:38:16] Julie: Yeah. And that's why I think giving this framework about what we [00:38:20] mean by kindness or what it means in this context opens it up, doesn't it?
[00:38:25] Beyond being nice or opens it, you know, it, it, it's kindness, but you know, it's like a lot of things, isn't it? Like the construct sitting underneath the words or the variables is really important. And that's kind of what you've done as you've pulled out kindness as a construct and you've kind of given it some legs and a framework and words that makes [00:38:45] it really, really easy to work within.
[00:38:47] So I'm delighted to hear that people are coming to it in meetings using it, um, as a discussion framework and like yourself has it on a poster that there's kind of all round the room.
[00:38:58] Joanna: I've used it with parents. I had a dad shouting at me so that he was angry about something. And I actually pointed to the poster behind me and I said, I can appreciate that you're being honest and that you're holding me accountable, [00:39:10] but could you manage your communication please?
[00:39:11] 'cause I'm not happy that you're shouting at me. And he went, oh yeah, sorry. So I even used it with parents,
[00:39:17] Julie: do you know? And, and time and time again, I work with so many schools, so many multi academy trusts, and we, we talk about the things that feed into staff wellness, and we know the parents and the, the way that parents speak to staff.
[00:39:29] And actually one of the biggest questions is always, but how do we, how do we communicate that to parents? How [00:39:35] do we tell them what it is? Because as soon as you've said that, I'm thinking, well, actually having a really simplistic definition of this is what we do. So yes, please be honest. We need to hear, but let's do all the other things as well.
[00:39:49] Make it less eye, less eager, make it more kind of like check, tick check and communication. I like that. I think that works really well. See, it does go beyond the [00:40:00] leader and it feeds into marriage guidance counselling as well. That's brilliant. You touch on self-care towards the end of the book and, you know, we're, we are kind of big fans around talking about that, but equally, I mean, when we talk about wellbeing, wellbeing is.
[00:40:18] The culture needs to support the conditions to thrive, doesn't it? Which really is what you are talking about in your book here, [00:40:25] how to be a leader that creates the conditions that allow staff to be well and thrive in is basically what it is. But then you also talk about a little bit about individual self-care towards the end and how important that is.
[00:40:36] As leaders, we know the role is demanding. What does that look like to you both inside and outside of work?
[00:40:43] Joanna: I'm useless, and I'll tell you the story to do with that chapter is I'd actually done, I've been [00:40:50] working on the book for ages and. I got it to a point where I was ready to sort of submit it and I gave it to my husband and he, he read it over a weekend and I said to him, what do you think?
[00:41:01] Then he said, uh, yeah, yeah, it's good, but you've missed a bit. And I said, what do you mean you've missed a bit? And he said, you missed out bit about being kind to yourself. So in the original draught, that chapter wasn't even there. And he said, I knew that you [00:41:15] would not put that in because I'm terrible. I I'm probably the worst person in the world at looking after myself.
[00:41:19] And it's something that I really need to focus on because that's something I find difficult. '
[00:41:24] Julie: cause Kristen Neff, who is you kind of, you maybe heard of her. She's your big, your big woman who talks about compassion and kindness. And she basically says that no conversation around compassion and kindness cannot include yourself.
[00:41:38] So your husband would bob on whether he [00:41:40] was channelling n or not. You know, like where is that, is there anything that you do? What's your go to on a daily basis? What sort of thing might you do just to kind of restore yourself,
[00:41:51] Joanna: uh, to switch off? 'cause sometimes I just need time to think. And I, I was talking to somebody the other day and it made me laugh because I said, my husband's a classroom teacher and he comes home and he's got piles of marking and loads of planning to do, and he's working in the evening.
[00:42:03] Sometimes I'm sitting there and he's [00:42:05] going, look at you, the head teacher of a school. Just sit in there and here I am working. And I said to him, I'm thinking, I haven't had time to sit and think all day, and I've got this problem and I need to work it out. And I just need to think. It's not that I'm not working, I just need that time to think.
[00:42:25] So sometimes I just sit there staring into space. That's my time. But I do love [00:42:30] a, a good crime fiction, murdering people. And that's my switch off that, that's my happy space is watching a Netflix True Crime documentary.
[00:42:41] Julie: I'm glad you wanted that. You added in and watching there.
[00:42:45] Joanna: Yeah, I haven't, I haven't tried it in real life.
[00:42:47] Don't worry.
[00:42:48] Julie: Okay. So you decompress by watching a good old crime.
[00:42:52] Joanna: Oh, I do. [00:42:55]
[00:42:55] Julie: The rest of us got the sea. We listen to the waves, but yeah, no crime through. But I suppose that's that ultimate kind of taking you out of a situation, isn't it? And distracting.
[00:43:05] Joanna: Absolutely. That's what it does. And, and there's a starter, middle and an end, so I know who did it in the end.
[00:43:09] So, and, and I need that closure at the end that, that makes my brain happy.
[00:43:14] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. But going back to what you said, Joanna, and, and that kind of, you know, when, when your husband [00:43:20] criticises you that you just sat there and loved that. Um, not doing but actually kind of thinking, but that work of deep focus as a leader is kind of the big work, but it's often the invisible work and there isn't time built into it.
[00:43:35] And I think we've got to get better, but certainly at leadership level, but in there at all levels, at like seeing, actually having some time. To thing [00:43:45] is part of my job.
[00:43:46] Joanna: Yeah. And, and again, the boundaries, you know, sometimes I'll be in my office and I'll just put a sandwich in my mouth and somebody walks, can I just speak to you?
[00:43:53] And I'm just like, do I look like in my head I'm thinking, do I look like I can torture you at the minute I'm trying to grab a bite of a sandwich, so I'll put the sandwich down and they're going, no, carry on. And I can't sit and eat while you're coming in and talking about something. And then they finish and somebody says, oh, there's somebody here to see you.
[00:44:08] And then the [00:44:10] sandwich sits there all day with one bite out of it.
[00:44:11] Julie: Yeah. And we have got to get better at that. We've gotta get better as people, but giving people that permission. I think if, if you, you, you essentially, you know, your role is there to decision make and, and problem solve and be accountable ultimately.
[00:44:27] You need that time and space to do that in a world where we've just become perpetually distracted and you [00:44:35] know, it is really, really important. Joanna, I really want people to buy the book. Read the book practise. Um, chase, I also want people to connect with you on LinkedIn. You've started doing that.
[00:44:45] Joanna: Oh yeah.
[00:44:45] That'd be lovely.
[00:44:46] Julie: Yeah. You started doing the little nominate someone at Start of the week, haven't you?
[00:44:50] Joanna: Yeah, kind leader with It's been lovely. Like people from all around the world have been messaging me, not even necessarily people in education and just saying, I've worked with this person. They're a really [00:45:00] kind leader who had just written a couple of sentences about what they're like.
[00:45:03] And I just think it's nice and it just makes people's day.
[00:45:06] Julie: It does. And it's nice to read it. It's nice when that pops up. So yeah, everybody connect with you on, on LinkedIn and, and nominate. You. Kindly nominate yourself if you're listening in thinking, yes I am. All of these things. Um, 'cause that's absolutely gorgeous, Joanna.
[00:45:19] We always ask for some words of wisdom from our guests just to finish with and, [00:45:25] and feels like a very fitting question. If you were to offer a suggestion of one kind thing that people could go with and do for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:45:34] Joanna: I think give yourself time to look in the mirror at the end of the day and just for one day sit there and think about all of the decisions that you made during the day and just check whether or not they were kind.
[00:45:48] So just think about at the end of a [00:45:50] school day, sit down, think about how many decisions you'd have to make. Where you kind and just reflect on it
[00:45:57] Julie: because there's always chance to, to do different, isn't there? And I think, again, that's testimony to the way that you tell the story in the back of the way the narrative comes through.
[00:46:06] And I, I think that's what makes this not more credible, but has a, a great credibility. Because if we go back to where we started, you start by acknowledging [00:46:15] that you didn't actually think kindness was a strength and that wasn't your starting point. So for somebody who's almost grown into kindness and now sees it as a central kind of tenant in leadership, I think that's what gives this book that credibility.
[00:46:31] So, yeah. Thank you for that, Joanna. Thank you very much. Um, I feel like I need to finish with Smith's lyric. Um, and uh, the [00:46:40] Smith's song about it takes strength to be gentle and kind, and I think that's, um, is absolutely what you are saying in the page. So your book, so thank you. Make, continue to sell out on Amazon.
[00:46:52] There we get the books and the um, and the mugs and all of the chase paraphernalia to go with it as a little bit of a size hustle. Thank you, Joanna.
[00:47:01] Joanna: Oh, thanks Julie. It's been lovely to meet [00:47:05] you.