Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Office Talk UK is a fortnightly podcast hosted by Dave Sharp, and a great excuse for him to have conversations with leading UK architects about their approach to business, marketing, communications and brand strategy.
Office Talk has been shortlisted for the 2023 ArchiTeam Awards for Innovation & Contribution to Architecture, and the 2022 Archiboo Awards for Best Podcast.
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp dot com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at office dave sharp. Joining me on the show today is Jim Stevenson, an architectural photographer and filmmaker known for capturing the many ways people interact with architecture. In this episode, Jim and I discussed why photographing people enjoying buildings rather than just empty spaces can help to better explain the story and concept of the project, but also serves as a visual testimonial to the success of the building.
Dave Sharp:We looked at how architectural filmmaking has grown and evolved over the years and why architects are increasingly seeing the value in having the story of their projects told in film in addition to still photography. We spoke about the different ways film can help architects to reach new audiences from extending the potential media reach of a project to producing different cuts of the main film that can be tailored to speak about different subjects to different audiences. And finally, we looked at the questions Jim likes to ask architects to help them tease out the most interesting stories and ideas in their projects, and how we can better prepare for situations where we need to speak about our work on camera. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jim Stevenson. Jim, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Jim Stephenson:Thank you for having us. Good to see you again.
Dave Sharp:Thank you. I should say coming back on the podcast. You're actually, a return guest to Office Talk. I'm just now under a different nation or a different area, but it's the same vibe. We're we're here again.
Jim Stephenson:Exactly. I'm happy to be back. And, also, we got an in real life conversation recently in
Dave Sharp:Scotland. Edinburgh. Bizarre. It was really cool. It was so weird to see that come to life.
Dave Sharp:I've known you for a long time, then just all of a sudden we're, like, having a beer together in a place. This is unreal. We've been on the podcast before. We've been through your background before, but Yeah. It's always interesting, I think, just to talk a little bit about how you got into architectural photography and filmmaking, what your journey was to to kind of get there.
Jim Stephenson:How did I get into it? Well, I always I just wanted to design buildings when I was younger. My dad was a civil engineer or still is a civil engineer. And, so I was surrounded by, you know, drawings and buildings and and how things work. And but I just, I wanted to be an architect.
Jim Stephenson:My dad had a bit of a disdain for architects because he was an engineer. He used to talk about how they just turn up on-site in their fancy cars and the wrong shoes, because they're not wearing their sight boots and they don't get it. So I guess, like, going into architecture was my was a minor act of rebellion for me, as as rebellious as that can possibly be. But I also, I wasn't particularly academic, so I went to you know, I did my did my a levels, didn't get it right, didn't get enough grades. So I ended up doing architectural technology instead, which was kind of a more sort of vocational version.
Jim Stephenson:I didn't go to art school. I went to, Brighton Uni and studied architectural technology, which I actually really enjoyed. It was kind of the link between architects and and engineering. And I then I went on to work in practice. I mean, in truth, I've been working on the design and construction of buildings since I was, like, 15, and I've been working on building sites as well.
Jim Stephenson:So by the time I got to uni, I was all pretty well equipped, graduated, got straight into practice, and and was just happily getting on with it, and just thought, this is this is it. I'm gonna this is gonna be my career. I actually did my dissertation on building with straw bales. So I I think I thought I was gonna end up designing buildings made out of straw bales, and then, the recession hit in 2008 or 2009, and and I got made redundant pretty abruptly and had to find something else to do. The only other thing I could do was work on building sites or I'd worked in, like, shops as a un like, clothes shops when I was at when I was at uni.
Jim Stephenson:All all the shops were shut because there were recession, and then all the building sites had stopped. But I had done a few bit of photography. I worked for a practice in America, and my boss there was really into photography. And he sort of said to me it really stuck with me. He said to me, like, if you can spend this much time designing a building, the least you can do is learn how to take one good photo of it.
Jim Stephenson:But I I wasn't doing loads of pictures, but I was I was I was sort of handy with a camera, and this was like pre smartphones, you know, so being handy with a camera was was relatively rare. You'd have, like, one of your mates in a group of mates who was quite good at photography, and and I was that one. And I just had to throw myself into it. I mean, it was like in the early stages, it was just necessity. I assumed I'd do it for a few months until I could get a job back in practice again, and then it all took off.
Jim Stephenson:And and now we're that's like, what, 15 years ago, and I'm still here, still still working for me.
Dave Sharp:And was that just tapping into your network of kind of peers and young practices and people at the same age when you were suddenly going, oh, I need to photography to make a living here. I've gotta go get some work. Was it people that you knew in the in the industry initially?
Jim Stephenson:Yeah. But not so much architects. Initially, it was like, it was a lot of suppliers and developers, housing associations because the practice I was working for the last project I worked on the design of was a social housing project. So the housing, what do you call them? The housing association that were building that.
Jim Stephenson:My they were one of my early sort of proper clients. I was just like, they'd they'd say to me, oh, can you come and photograph the caretaker? Because we wanna do, like, a press release on what our staff do all day. So I'd be photographing, like, the groundsman going around sweeping leaves, and then the next week, I'd be photographing a resident, you know, in their home. So it was kind of like it was sort of around architecture.
Jim Stephenson:I you know, a I one of my early clients was a glass, manufacturer. So there's a lot of that sort of stuff. And then sort of slowly started to pick up more architectural work. I mean, I did weddings, you know
Dave Sharp:Yeah. 3
Jim Stephenson:or 4 weddings to start off with, which I would never go back to, because I'm not suited to that. But, yeah. And then but what happened is, like, in that recession, a lot of people my age, because I was, like, you know, mid to late twenties then, a lot of people my age were getting made redundant as well and couldn't find work and who had studied architecture, so they were setting up on their own. So about 5 years later, when all the practices that they had set up on their own were kinda coming into fruition and becoming profitable, sustainable businesses. We were the same age and we've been through the same thing and we'd come up, you know, our businesses were the same age as well.
Jim Stephenson:So that was, like, a real great point. There was a point where I suddenly realized I was working for all of these young, exciting practices in the UK. And, and that's been lovely because I still I'm still working with loads of them and and, you know, we've grown up together.
Dave Sharp:All of that sort of stuff that you were doing, you know, shooting the groundsman and working with the glass supplier and all of that sort of stuff, I feel like that probably brought a certain flavor to your work at that point, I'm guessing. Like, do you feel like there was things that you were doing then that you sort of took into the architecture work that you were doing?
Jim Stephenson:A 100%. A 100%, Dave. Yeah. Even the even the weddings, you know, my my work is so, I mean, in an ideal world, my work is focused on on people using buildings. And I I photograph weddings like when I photograph weddings, I photograph them like like I was an architectural photographer and photographing groundsman and stuff.
Jim Stephenson:All my verticals of my building were all still neatly lined up even if it was the background, and and I was photographing, you know, a a caretaker. So, yeah, definitely definitely, it was an because I had no photographic education to speak of, no formal education. That was definitely learning on job, you know, setting up I didn't even realize that you were supposed to, in inverted commas, photograph architecture without any people in, because I didn't get the chance to learn that.
Dave Sharp:You didn't start with that bad habit, I suppose.
Jim Stephenson:I'm not I'm not I'm not calling anyone out.
Dave Sharp:Well, I'm curious about how you sort of see because, obviously, like, as experienced person in the industry, you get a lot of, like, fledgling photographers, architectural photographers starting up and then kinda coming to you go, Jim, tell me, like, what do I do? You know, that kind of thing. And I guess, like, in their case, I guess if, their situation might be a little bit different, I'm guessing, and they're maybe coming at it with certain seeing certain images or styles of photography that they maybe see on Instagram or see on publications or whatever. And then maybe, like, I I feel like naturally they'd they'd almost start off trying to emulate a certain style, and maybe it is kind of, like, quite empty or quite whatever, you know, or or whatever. Do you sort of notice any trends in terms of new photographers, like, how they are kinda starting out?
Dave Sharp:Because it's certainly unlikely to be the the scenario you're starting with, I guess, but maybe not.
Jim Stephenson:It's a real mix. Like, you know, in the last couple of years, there's definitely been a rise in in people who studied architecture, but have decided, actually, it probably isn't for them. And they've been contacting me saying, particularly with film, like, they Yeah. They've done a film module, you know, in in in the course of their degree, and they really loved it. I think that's a great thing about an architectural education.
Jim Stephenson:It's actually really broad, and you can do loads with it. You don't have to do the full, you know, qualification route. There's other things other routes you can go down to. I'd say though, like well, first of all, I'd say, trying to emulate someone when you start off is a great idea. Like, finding someone's work that you like, and and it's a great way to learn.
Jim Stephenson:I mean, you you don't wanna be ripping them off, but it's a really you know, if you're learning to play guitar, you know, you you pick a song that you love and you learn that song. So I think it's a really good way to learn. Yeah. There's some styles coming through there, isn't there? Like, you know, when I was first starting out, it was overwhelmingly empty buildings, blue skies, sunshine, some beautiful images created like that.
Jim Stephenson:And then, obviously, Ewan Ewan Barn came along with his with his sort of more documentary style, which really appealed to me. That was what I was really fascinated by, and it sort of spoke to, you know, people like Tony Ray Jones and and people like that who in the seventies eighties or seventies were doing, similar work. Now you get this you you get the a lot more people in architecture photography, but then you get something that's gone way the other way. You get this sort of, like, empty, like, empty rooms, not just no people, but no furniture and very sort of desaturated, these these very sort of serene, calm, austere images, which, you know, is not to my taste, but, like, they're, like, still really strong images. So I just I think the I think the the mistake that I'm going off topic a bit here, but I think the mistake to make is to try, if you're a photographer, is to try and cement your style too early.
Jim Stephenson:Like, you just have to find it. Like, you just do do all of the styles until you start to feel comfortable with it. But, yeah, it's interesting what, you know, seeing what other images are out there and and trying to find a balance between spending too long looking at them, and influencing your work, whilst also trying to know what's going on in the world.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. At Office Dave Sharp, we take a longer term approach to strategy, marketing, and brand definition. Working exclusively with established local and global architecture practices, we apply our structured and in-depth process to develop thoughtful brand strategies and a considered 12 month marketing plan for those looking to reflect on the direction of their business. By placing a stronger focus on highly crafted marketing and communications and elevating the quality of your brand elements, including messaging, visuals, media, and more, we're able to provide you with research driven methodologies that are backed by measurable outcomes. This style of thinking and working doesn't just consider your practice's impact and purpose beyond tomorrow.
Dave Sharp:It provides a thoughtful approach for your marketing that focuses on quality, not quantity. So for more information or to book a consultation, simply visit office davechab.com. Just quickly on the sort of the barbell of, like, people versus kind of post apocalyptic austerity images, which I love. You know, we talk about the podcast, and I think other episodes in this season raise the debate around, do we pair things back and strip things out? And the argument made around that, and it's a good one.
Dave Sharp:It's pretty convincing one, I think, is about maybe it makes it clearer to see the architectural idea. Maybe that becomes more legible when you kind of remove all the other bits. So debate that. No. You don't have to debate that.
Dave Sharp:But but then there's the the sort of the more people oriented approach, which is certainly, I think, like, god, it's really tough. I think architects are faced with this decision, like, quite often of kind of going, you know, what what what's gonna sort of show the work in the best way possible? What's
Jim Stephenson:gonna do it?
Dave Sharp:And I think sometimes these days, they almost feel a little bit faced by that choice, because they can see they're attracted to both styles and different types of photographers that are in those different sort of genres. I don't know. It's a tricky one.
Jim Stephenson:I mean, in an ideal world, I've done this before. You know, I've worked on projects before, where the ideal world is that you get it shot twice by 2 different photographers. So I've worked on projects before. I've been very fortunate to work projects before. They're Alain Binet's photograph.
Jim Stephenson:And her work is, like, is is beautiful. Very rarely people. It's all about light and shadow and texture and and all of these factors. Like, stunning work, totally different to mine. Mine's like people and color and mess.
Jim Stephenson:Her work is largely black and white a lot of the time. And they brought me in specifically because my style is completely different to to a lens. No. There's no sort of, there's no kind of conflict there. They're just completely different.
Jim Stephenson:So in an ideal world, I guess you'd have it done twice. That sort of purity of the idea thing, I think, is a sort of is, just I don't know. Like, it's a wider discussion about architecture. I think if the purity of the idea is better shown without people, then maybe, like I don't know. Maybe that maybe you should reconsider.
Jim Stephenson:Are you a sculptor or are you an architect? Like, the the the purity of the idea should be enhanced by the presence of people. It shouldn't be, in my opinion. So that's why I love photographing with even if I'm doing it's tricky depending on the type of project. Like, if you're doing a private house, sometimes the homeowners might be private.
Jim Stephenson:They might not wanna be in the pictures. It's weird putting someone else in the picture, like asking the architect to hang out. So you kind of I I get it with private houses. It's tricky. Even in that situation, though, I try to leave, like, a bit of mess around, like some kids' drawings on the fridge or, like, I you know, some I get them to make lunch and just not tidy up after themselves so that there's some stuff around that shows that people live there.
Jim Stephenson:But, yeah, it the purity of an architectural idea oh, god. If people if if you're if the purity of your idea is being ruined by people, then check yourself. You can leave that in, but, god, I'm gonna lose clients. And every time I get onto this subject, I think, oh, jeez. I'm gonna lose some people here.
Jim Stephenson:But I do I really yeah. I sort of yeah. Maybe my, vocabulary doesn't extend enough to be able to express that any better or any more subtly, but that is kind of the core of what I think about that.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. I guess, like, as you're saying, it's a broader conversation about architecture, right, and your philosophy about the role of architecture, And it's not just being this, like, purely sculptural and aesthetic thing about, like, how does material and structure and space can light work, but, like, it's, you know, it's it's more about more about the story of the way that, you know, people are experiencing that space or who that client is. Totally.
Jim Stephenson:And and the other thing is is you can have both of those in in one thing. They're not they're not mutually exclusive. So you can have images that that show people in the space or or signs of life in the space, but also show the beautiful textures of the materials or how the light falls on a plaster wall or how the movement of space transitions from one room to the next. You can do all of that and still have signs of life. All that you know, that's certainly what I try to do in in the in the, stills and and video that we do anyway.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Absolutely. In terms of people in buildings, I mean, that's obviously something that you're talking your book a little bit here, Jim, because you did recently just put together an an exhibition on, the architect has left the building focusing on films about the way people use spaces. So it's kind of, it's kind of like an issue that you like to champion a fair bit, wouldn't you say?
Jim Stephenson:Yeah. Yeah. It's increasingly, as I've got been doing this longer and longer, it's become more important to me. And it's so, yeah, I do sort of feel a bit sometimes, like, I get a bit soapboxy about it, but I I it is something that I'm really passionate about. It is is showing buildings in use, and I just think it's important.
Jim Stephenson:Like, I I I don't I I genuinely don't think there's any better way in a photograph to show the success of a building than to show happy people being happy in that building or using it in in some interesting way. And I and I always think, I don't know, man. I I really sometimes I think that the absence of people is is really telling. And, you know, I just watched a film about this genuinely I just watched a film about this tower block in LA. I think it's in LA.
Jim Stephenson:I can't remember the architect's name, but it's god, it's awful. I don't really honestly don't mind you putting that out there. It's it's sort of this tower block that he's wrapped in these concrete staircases.
Dave Sharp:I
Jim Stephenson:was looking at it thinking, I I don't like it. It's not to my style. What what but whatever. Like, I don't own the right to like everything I see. So fine.
Jim Stephenson:Like, I'm interested in it. I'm gonna it is an interesting, you know, reaction to what presumably there was a problem there that needed fixing. But then they went inside, and it's just these empty office floor plates. And in my head, that just screams this building hasn't worked. Like, I know that building was finished a couple of years ago or 18 months ago, I think.
Jim Stephenson:So if the floor place is empty, something's gone wrong. And, and, and, and some of that's the economy. Some of that's the way that we work. Some of that's we don't need big office buildings like we used to 10 years ago. But also, like, maybe something's gone wrong with the architecture.
Jim Stephenson:And I I do feel a bit like that when I see buildings that are supposed to be full, documented, completely empty. And, again, with private houses, that's different. Like, there's so many reasons to to photograph a house private that are really legitimate, and and I don't get that feeling when I see photographs of a house where there's no people. I just think, you know, there's good reasons for that. But for, like, a public building, like, an office building that shows off about how it meets the street and it's got this, like, you know, really sort of, permeable street level elements to it, and then you see no people there.
Jim Stephenson:I think, you know, what's going on? And and the same with, you know, with you could say the same about community centers. But, yeah, I just think people are really, really important, and and it goes back to, like, you know, seeing people use a space. There's no better way to to celebrate a building. And and 90 9% of the buildings that I photograph, should be celebrated because they're they're brilliant buildings by great architects.
Dave Sharp:I've tried my hand at a bit of architecture photography in my day, and I have done many cringey things of walking through my shots from one side to the other and, like, all sorts of things. And it's just these, like, cliche kind of awkward setups of of people and but there's somehow, like, in terms of your method that I think it concentrates on these people that, like, don't seem to know that they're being watched, and waiting until they're doing something, like, you know, kind of funny or kind of peculiar or idiosyncratic, and they're just doing their thing. And then you're like, that's it. That's capturing that, like, little moment of something there. And, obviously, again, there's this difference between residential projects and then sort of public projects and things like that.
Dave Sharp:But what's your sort of process for, like, finding that sense of, like, authenticity in the way that people can, like, be in your photographs? Because I feel like if you just try and put people in going, okay. You go stand over there. You go stand there. You go chop some carrots on that side of the table.
Dave Sharp:It just kind of it just doesn't feel very, very real.
Jim Stephenson:Well, first of all, I should say everybody thank you for the kind words, but everybody in my pictures knows that I'm there taking pictures.
Dave Sharp:Yes.
Jim Stephenson:And that's really important. Like, we we don't we're not sneaking around. Everyone knows that there's a camera and knows that I'm there. If it's a public building, I just I just make myself really visible, but also I spend enough time there so that I'm part of the furniture. So say I'm photographing a museum, and somebody's in the pictures in the photographs, they've probably seen me 5 or 6 times already that day on their visit there because I'm around.
Jim Stephenson:I'm usually wearing a Hi Viz vest. I've got a camera on a tripod. And the first time they've seen me, they might, like, even subconsciously sort of straighten up a little bit and and and, you know, everyone well, quite often, it's not even subconscious. Quite often, you see people sort of doing their hair and, you know, and and just making sure they look their best. But normally, by 3rd or 4th, I'm just part of the furniture, and they've sort of forgotten a little bit.
Jim Stephenson:And and that's when you get the best work. Sometimes you you you photograph in a space and a home, for instance, even a home. You say you're photographing the kitchen and there's nobody in the kitchen because they're you know, it's 2 in the afternoon and they're working from home. But rather than say, could you just come in here and could you stand here? Or you sit there, you sit on that bench, and you look up and you smile at that person and, like, you're having a really great conversation.
Jim Stephenson:Rather than doing that, I'll just say that just make a cup of tea. Do something you'd normally do in here and ignore me, and just spend 15 minutes doing it. And the first three minutes, they sort of quite often if it's 2 people, they've sort of forgotten how to have a conversation that that is a bit sort of awkward. But after that, once they go in, it's just remarkable how quickly they've ignored me and how quickly they've forgotten that I'm there, even in a small space. And then I can work around them, and I can that's when I get those images that that feel much more natural.
Jim Stephenson:And and you can expand that bigger and bigger and bigger. So, you know, in a in a large space, like an office building, for instance, if there's, like, a breakout space in an office building, I'll just say to, like if if there's nobody there and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and no one's turned up, I'll just say to somebody, can can you just bring 10 people over and hang out? Just have a break for 15 minutes and ignore me. And I don't I never sort of say, you've got to sit there, you've got to sit there, you've got to sit there, and and everybody smile. It's and that's how you sort of get the more natural thing.
Jim Stephenson:I also think there's a there's a thing, like, you mentioned people doing something a bit sort of idiosyncratic or a bit a bit odd. I I just think that's a really great way to make sure your images don't look posed by having them do something that maybe isn't what you'd expect to happen in that space. So quite often, photographing the Maxi in Rome by Zaha Hadid. And, you know, you had all of the architecture students, mainly architecture students, visiting that building, looking at the architecture and looking up and sketching it. That's what you expect to happen there, and that's great.
Jim Stephenson:And I did that. But also there was a kids party going on, and there was a little boy dressed as the Incredible Hulk who was running around photobombing everybody's selfies they were taking. So I I focused on that, and and it was something unexpected. And you don't pose that because who's I'm not asking someone to dress up like the Incredible Hulk. So it's obviously not a posed picture.
Jim Stephenson:So I think there's those moments of of sort of, quirkiness. I hate that word. Please don't ever call my images quirky, but that moment of, like, little bits that you wouldn't expect. That's how you make your images.
Dave Sharp:It gives spaces or helps to add a bit of character to Yeah. To the images, maybe.
Jim Stephenson:And it's a bit of humor as well. I mean, I take I take my work incredibly seriously, but I take the fun of my work very I'm very serious about fun in my work. And sometimes that's having fun making the work, but also that's like having a bit of humor in the in the images. You know? Not that my images are hilarious, but there's a bit of, you know, some of them have got a bit of humor in
Dave Sharp:them. In terms of the Hulk kid running around. Right? Like, there's nothing in the design of the building that is, like, specifically considering the needs of the Hulk kid, you know, or, like, is kind of contemplating that potential use of the space. So it's not like it's anything that's particular necessarily to the building itself or the design intention, But perhaps it's more just about like, I don't know, I kind of get this feeling that it's like if images have certain surprising, joyful, pleasurable elements to them, does it just change the way that, like, the public we kind of engage with architecture that maybe we look at it a bit more closely, we pay more attention to it, or we enjoy looking at it more.
Dave Sharp:Like, I know it's that you enjoy having taking that fun seriously in your work, but thinking about, like, I I feel like that part of making images more engaging and successful as well. It's not about the individual building as much. It's just it's adding that extra element of people watching, I suppose.
Jim Stephenson:Exactly. That's that's the best word for it. It's people watching. My my job is is is wonderful. I I get to spend a day, 2 days, 3 days at a building, people watching, and the only responsibility I have is to press the button on the camera at the right time.
Jim Stephenson:Otherwise, I'm just people watching the whole time, and that's brilliant. And and although, like, with the Hulk kid, at the Maxi, no doubt, Zara Hadid never drew a little Hulk kid in any of her drawings or any of the visualizations. No doubt. They never considered it. But what they did consider was having a plaza or piazza, sorry, in front of the building that was large enough to accommodate different types of uses.
Jim Stephenson:So the whole kid was there because there was a kid's birthday party happening in that piazza. So, actually, it it is a sign of really great public architecture working well because there's a a local family or a local group of parents felt so comfortable about that building that they just rocked up and had a picnic and a and a kid's party there. And that and that's that's a sign of a really good building if people in the community take ownership of it. So although the whole kid was funny and it was it was it was kind of a nice bit of humor in the picture, it does tell a wider story of the success of of that part of that building. There are other parts of the building that are different, but that part of the building is successful because and that and that's how we show it.
Dave Sharp:That's interesting. You've touched on that a couple of times, that idea of a photo can be a damning evidence of how unsuccessful a building is, or it could be the opposite of, like, look how successful it is. We didn't set up whole kid. We didn't plant him in the scene. He's there because he's genuinely having a kid's birthday party.
Dave Sharp:That's how safe and comfortable and beautiful this place is. That that's the sort of activity somebody wants a whole group of people want to come and do there. I really thought about that idea of the people in photos being like, they're almost like little testimonials, each one of them walking around going, this building's awesome.
Jim Stephenson:I hadn't thought of it that way, but, yeah, like, that's a really nice way of thinking about it. Every person in all of my pictures is a testimonial to to that building, or is a little personal review of that building. And I in an ideal sense, because I get I'm lucky to photograph a lot of really good architecture. There are positive testimonial to that building. That's a really nice way of putting it, Dave.
Jim Stephenson:I might put that on my website. I'm having I'm having that.
Dave Sharp:Welcome to it. I'm interested in sort of segueing into film because we've been talking kind of about capturing these still moments. The same thing applies in film, the way that you approach film. But I guess, first, I'm kind of interested in, like, as time goes on, I'm thinking back to the last time we spoke in 2020 or 2021 or something like that. The relationship between still photography and film is, like, kind of ever changing in the industry in terms of how it's used and its, like, role and relevance.
Dave Sharp:Sort of wonder, like, what's the what's the current state of the union of the role that you see film kind of playing at the moment? Where are you finding that it's kind of turning up? Has that changed? Is it is it sort of similar to what it was doing a few years ago and and the role it was playing? Or yeah.
Dave Sharp:What's what what's your kind of thoughts on where it's at?
Jim Stephenson:I think it's become a bit more refined. I mean, this more broadly than my own work, I mean, in the industry. You know, video work's become a bit more refined over the last couple of years. I mean, when it first sort of started to break through, you'd see a lot of these, sort of, cinistills. You see these things, like, cinistills where basically the camera didn't move, and you just saw it was a photograph, but you saw people moving in and out of it, and there'd be no sound.
Jim Stephenson:And then people start to learn how to include sound and and and movement, and and so they became sort of a bit more refined. Once we'd sort of all learned how to do these things, storytelling became the central part rather than the sort of technique of actually doing it and the and the equipment that was required. Once we'd all got used to that side of it. It it became about storytelling. So I think, increasingly, films have been playing an important a more important role in in telling the story of of a building or a space or an idea or a practice.
Jim Stephenson:But I don't I don't see the 2 of them, stills and and video, in any kind of competition. I think that it's the same as, you don't see writing and and and still photographs in competition. They're they're they're they're there to complement one another. So it's very rare that I if I'm doing a film shoot that I that I I'm only shooting video. Like, I will be doing photographs as well because they have different purposes.
Jim Stephenson:But, yeah, I think it's nice now that film sort of got out of its infancy where it was really in the architectural industry, just like moving photos. And now it's it's become a a real storytelling device, which, you know, other industries have been doing for decades. So, yeah, it's becoming more and more significant, more and more common. I can't imagine starting out now and and not doing video. I think you have to at least have a working knowledge of of the basics of it.
Dave Sharp:It still seems like a special treat for special occasions from the architecture standpoint. So it's only very, very unique situations where film kind of comes into play. We do see practices that are starting to, I guess, adopt a bit more of a mindset of it becomes part of the routine with every project that is deserving of photography. It's also deserving of a film. Like, there's a story there.
Dave Sharp:We're trying to capture that. We don't wanna lose that. Those are beautiful situations where it can start to become part of the routine.
Jim Stephenson:Yeah. I think if you can build it in I mean, purely pragmatically, it is more expensive to make a film because there's more editing involved. And there's more work involved, particularly if you're doing interviews. So it is more expensive. So I I appreciate, like, you can't always budget for, like, a a storytelling, a narrative film in every instance.
Jim Stephenson:I think it's worthwhile, even at the very least, just getting a few of these cine stills, because they they end up being really handy. Like, most of the shoots that I do, people normally ask for, like, can you just get, like, 3 or 4 moving images just so we've got something for the backdrop of the website or something like that. So and in some projects, you know, that might just be somebody making a cup of tea in the kitchen. I did a project last week though in Sunderland that's a car park that's got a kinetic, light, sculpture on the side of it. So video was completely essential there because, you know, the lights move and it creates this sort of ocean like scene.
Jim Stephenson:So sometimes it's like it's incredibly essential. But even for projects where it might not seem so important, it can be such useful content, and it's not I don't love that word, but it can be such useful for content and really versatile stuff as well.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. I think it'll get to the point where it is thought of as essential. I guess, like, cost is kind of still a bit of the barrier, isn't it? Your work is often quite a mix of combining still photo shoots and then also doing video for the client. But quite often, you know, you're going back to a project because you've been commissioned by, you know, an awards program or something like that where you didn't shoot the original still set of images, but you're visiting to sort of retrospectively sort of take in a project.
Dave Sharp:Is that kind of more of what you do?
Jim Stephenson:Yeah. With film like, a lot of the films I'm commissioned, like, fresh out, like, you know, we finished this building. Can you go and do it? But, actually, a lot of them are are revisits where they've had it photographed already, and they just that but they just wanna add a film to it because now we have the technology to do that more. It's more accessible, basically.
Jim Stephenson:And, actually, that's really nice because for me, the pressure's off. Like, the photographs have been done, and they're lovely. And most of the time, they're lovely, beautiful photographs. So I'm not having to worry too much about coverage. I don't have to cover the entire building.
Jim Stephenson:And and and that's the important thing with film is, you know, where where if you commission a photography, you might be saying, like, I want each room done here. But in a film, you don't need each room. Like, if I'm telling the story of a house, it's very rare that I need to create video footage of a bathroom.
Dave Sharp:Unless you look at the YouTube comments, then they're all like, where's the bathroom? I wanna know I wanna know where the garage is located.
Jim Stephenson:Like I said right at the start, the story is the memorable bit.
Dave Sharp:Exactly.
Jim Stephenson:The visuals the the the building's beautiful, but the story about the building, the story about why it's beautiful is the memorable bit. So you don't need to show, like, every tap, every bit of joinery, as beautiful as it might be. Yeah. If there's already been pictures done, if I'm coming in after. Plus also coming in after is great because normally, like, the building's been used for a bit, and and that works so much better in film.
Jim Stephenson:If the building's been inhabited for a little while, it's it's much easier to to make a film about it that way.
Dave Sharp:That's a really nice idea because, I mean, the challenge we face with decisions in marketing strategies with practices about in the year ahead, what do we shoot? You know, what do we do? It's always gonna be about new projects, new photos. That's where the bulk of, you know, our investment is gonna go. But we sometimes have these questions about, but what about that old project that we did, you know, that well, no.
Dave Sharp:We did 10 years ago or, like, whatever. What do we do with that? Do we write something about it? Do we go and maybe do some more photos like an anniversary sort of set of images? What can we do with those photos?
Dave Sharp:Will they work? Will they be effective? And it just when it's thought about through, like, photography, the answer we usually get to is it's like, oh, it's just it's just hard to see that that's really gonna kind of be worth the work. Like, what are we gonna get out of those images? The media aren't gonna take them, all that sort of stuff.
Dave Sharp:But I think going back and making a film story that's like post occupancy, that's something being lived in. That seems to make a lot of sense to me as how you would address revisiting older work because it's something you're creating something completely new, and it's all story, like, related as you're saying.
Jim Stephenson:I think it's it's so valuable. And I've got a really great example of it, actually. Like, this the earlier this year or late summer for RCKA Architects, I went to a community center that they finished a long time ago. Like, this is an old project for them, but a really significant project for them. And they've had it photographed, lovely images.
Jim Stephenson:Can't remember who did them, but they're really nice images, really solid images. But they got in touch with me and just said, look, we we wanna go back and do a film. It's actually because there was some awards about, the AT Awards about, you know, going back to buildings, buildings that have stood the test of time. And they wanted to they wanted a film to go in along with their submission, which is a really good idea because it really appeals to judges and juries. So we but we went in, and this was sort of slightly unexpected even for the architect.
Jim Stephenson:We sat down with the architect, one of the people that works there. And one of the original, well, he was a kid then when they were building the youth center in this part of South London. And he was part of this sort of youth movement that were raising money to have a youth center built in their community. And now he's a youth worker himself. He's an he's grown up.
Jim Stephenson:He's a youth worker. And we interviewed the 3 of them, the the the guy that works there who's been there for ages ages, the architect, and and and this lad who's who's, you know, now a grown man and and a youth worker. I mean, if if the 3 of them together sat on a bench, and the energy in that interview was beautiful. Like, it was it was absolutely fantastic watching the 3 of them talk about it, watching them talk about how the we didn't talk about materials. We didn't talk about form.
Jim Stephenson:We didn't talk about structure. We just talked about how that project changed every single one of them. And the architect was talking about how much he'd learned from it, and the and and, you know, the youth worker was talking about how, you know, how much he got out of seeing the young people, advocate for themselves. And and then the young lad was talking about how, like, it changed the path of his life that he worked on this. And it was such an enthusiastic, wonderful thing.
Jim Stephenson:And the architect got to spend a day there watching the building being used all day, which you don't because of, you know, the amount the hard work that you have to do in an architect practice, you don't often get to hang out in your own buildings for a day after it's been finished. And so that that revisit holds so much value. And and to make a film about it, it's actually quite emotional. Like, I got a message from one of the partners at the practice, messaged me on Instagram and just said a couple of people cried when they watched it. Like, I mean, that's like, that's lovely, ain't it?
Jim Stephenson:Plus, it's gonna go out. It's gonna get press. It was really useful in the awards. They won an award. They, it's they they can now use it for the press.
Jim Stephenson:Now the awards process is over. So it's a whole no a whole load of, or a whole new run at getting pressed for a project that's already been out there already.
Dave Sharp:You mentioned the press there briefly. Just checking in on sort of how you sort of see them sort of promoting and using film these days. Give me, like, the best case scenario of I, like, produce a film as a practice, and then what's the most amazing wonderful thing that can happen to it as far as the press goes? And then give me, like, the most likely kind of average scenario. I'm just interested in what the range of sort of possibilities that you've seen happen.
Jim Stephenson:One of the good things about film that that may that maybe photos doesn't have have the same extent is its versatility. So you can do so much. If if I spend a day filming a project, whether it be a, know, in a house extension or, you know, a huge landmark art gallery, you can do so much with it. So the sort of, like, the successful thing, like, the is most successful would be you get press for it. So you get the video allows you to get, online press if you've already had printed press.
Jim Stephenson:So if you've already given the exclusive to wallpaper, but they can't they're a printed magazine. I know they have a website, but if they ran it in print, you can still give the film to Dazeen and say to Dazeen, no one else has had this. So you've got 2 exclusives. So you're keeping 2 press outlets really happy because they've got first looks. So that's great.
Jim Stephenson:Then you do separate cuts. So you do the cut. You do a main film that's 5 minutes long, but then you do a couple of 60 second cuts, and you give them to, like, stir or somebody like that, like another media outlet that runs a lot of digital. And you say, look. No one else has had these short versions.
Jim Stephenson:We've done a series of 3 short versions. Each of them are about a different subject of the building. You can have these, and they go out. And then you do a separate cut for the client that so, say, you've done a film about a swimming pool, they go out there a swimming pool in a university, they go out and they give it to university press. So it gives a whole different genre of press because you change the narrative.
Jim Stephenson:You you you edit the interviews differently, so it's more focused on a certain subject. We did a film once where the lighting designer wanted a separate press, separate cut of the film from the architect, and that went the the separate cut actually went way further in terms of press. So you can get loads and loads. You can do different cuts. You can cut stills from it.
Jim Stephenson:You can then you go to film festivals, and you say, look. We've got this film about a swimming pool, and we've got we've had films this year shown in film festivals in Mexico, in the US, all over Europe, in Sydney. We've had they've been spread all over the place. Then the awards season comes around, and you've got a film to show a jury rather than just a presentation. And we have had this year, particularly, we've had such a great response to our to our architects who have used our films in front of juries.
Jim Stephenson:It just seems to really hit at the moment. So we've we've had jury members contact us separately and say, look, I was sat on the jury of this, and we saw your film. I just wanna say what how great it was. So that that's really lovely to hear. So you've got, like, that's the top that's the best case scenario.
Jim Stephenson:You're you're using it for all of these different purposes. Plus do a film night at your studio and invite some clients around and say, hey. We just had a film with this really important project. Do you wanna come round And you turn it into a networking thing. An in person thing.
Jim Stephenson:And then you do the 15 second cuts that you put on your Instagram stories, and people end up sharing them. So you get this extra kick. So, actually, with film, you end up getting, like, 4 or 5 different opportunities to kick press. Whereas with photographs, you really just get, like, 1 or 2 a lot of the time. The average case scenario is you make the film, is does Zine run it or someone really great who runs digital No.
Dave Sharp:That's not the case. Yeah. Yeah.
Jim Stephenson:That's brilliant. I mean, it's fantastic. Like, the viewership for films is far bigger than the viewership for photos, so that's great. And then you've got your we make a little trailer for you so you can kick it out on your press. We do you a few little edits of you know, an edit that might just be about the green wall that you installed in this house or the edit that might be about the artwork.
Jim Stephenson:And but that's more like you pushing it out yourself on your own channels. So that's kind of average at the very least. You're, you know, you're still getting additional press to what you'd get with the photos.
Dave Sharp:Sort of an interesting trend I feel like I've picked up on. Like, you mentioned design would be interested in or architects journal might be interested in it in terms of taking the video because they've got this format where I don't know if this maybe I'd love your thoughts on this, but I get a feeling that in terms of, like, monetization of their business models, I get the sense that the architecture media is starting to discover the fact that they can actually make quite a lot of money on YouTube and other video centric places by putting up video content. And I I'm starting to pick up this trend where publications are going, we're maybe not interested in print, but can we do a video? Because they're, you know, they're really when given a project, because they're going, this would do really, really well and get, like, you know, quarter of a 1000000 views or the modern house YouTube. Like, these are mass they're becoming these massive platforms where they're almost, like, becoming larger than the more traditional publication, which is, you know, I mean, we love them, but they are pretty niche and pretty, like, limited circulation around a lot of these traditional style sort of, you know, formats.
Dave Sharp:And then this video format seems to be opening up, like, massive audiences, like, unbelievable audiences.
Jim Stephenson:It's crazy. Like, I mean, having said everything I've just said about video and all that, there is still nothing like getting a magazine arriving a post that's got your picture on a cover. Like, we
Dave Sharp:We love we love magazines. That's a given. That's a given. We're not
Jim Stephenson:It's so beautiful. But, yeah, you're right. Like, the I mean, we get we get media outlets contacting us specifically saying, do you have any new video? Because we're looking for video content. We need a video
Dave Sharp:a week. Like, that's what the demand is. There's, like, an insatiable amount of demand for, like, architecture or film
Jim Stephenson:out there. To to the extent that, you know, the AJ commission that me commissioned me to make films. Dazeen have got their own film unit, and they commission, other filmmakers as well. And it's becoming increasingly common that, that video is is now like an integral part of of a media outlet's, business plan. And and that helped that's great for architects because it means we can give them stuff that they want to have already.
Jim Stephenson:And you're right. Like, there is the sort of thing that they can monetize it on YouTube, which is sort of an interesting, sort of newer thing that's happening. But, yeah, like, we got, it's it opens up to a completely different audience. Like, the the modern house audience is massive. Like, there's there's I've done 2 films for them, and the view counts are insane.
Jim Stephenson:Like, absolutely huge. And and the engagements and the comments and all of that. But we did a film like a while back about the, the anti pavilion project in Hackney where they build these pavilions, once a year. Some like influencer, tech influencer, YouTuber, who's got this massive, like, millions of followers contacted us because he wanted to use some of our footage in a larger film that he was making. And it went crazy.
Jim Stephenson:Like, I had to turn off the notifications on my YouTube because it was like, new follower, new follower, new follower. Ding ding ding ding ding. So the the once you've got once you've got a bit of video out there, the the the audience just it's kinda potentially just expand exponentially.
Dave Sharp:There's such huge audiences for video. It's actually, yeah, quite crazy. I feel like film is getting introduced to practices. The idea of making video and spending money on that is becoming more established as a concept. But I actually sort of wonder if it'll jump straight to the point where there's so much demand for projects to be filmed that it would almost jump to the point where publications start covering that cost more regularly, and they don't expect, like okay.
Dave Sharp:In the Australian market, for example, which I don't wanna talk about too much because you it's the UK series. We gotta we gotta keep it UK centric over here. But in the Australian market, you know, the local project, which is a YouTube channel that I think a lot of people internationally have, like, picked up on, which is really good. They had initially started from a place of architect pays. You know, it was, we'll make a video and then we'll put it on put it on the platform.
Dave Sharp:Then they were like, oh, this is because there was very little audience and it was like, well, somebody's got to pay for it. It costs $20 or whatever, £10,000 to make this film. Somebody has to cover that cost. It's not gonna be the publication. Then as the audience grew, they started to realize, well, sponsors, products, suppliers, those those people can cover the cost because there's now an audience to advertise to.
Dave Sharp:But then it got to the point where the audience grew bigger and bigger to the point where the real value is the views. It's it's the it's just the being seen on YouTube. And then it became a point of, like, the publication just wanted to pay for it, keep the advertisers out, keep the products out. Let's not put any barriers in the way of good architects getting their work filmed. Let's just cover that cost, and then we'll make more money on the video plays.
Dave Sharp:And it's sort of I I wonder if we get almost to this, like, throwback to an era where publications paid for the photographer to go out to the project. I'm setting this up because that would be my dream that that gets us to where we wanna get to where all good architecture is filmed and, ultimately, YouTube pays for it.
Jim Stephenson:I mean, that would be amazing. I mean, I should just say, please leave this bit in. I should just say, it's not like the the money you were quoted. It's not gonna cost you $10 to get a film made with me.
Dave Sharp:Yes. No. No. I'm talking Australian prizes here.
Jim Stephenson:Don't scare anybody off. Yeah. I mean, that that would be the ideal, wouldn't it? I mean, you know, I think when I first started off doing stuff for the AJ, they sort of had a fee that they could pay me that was an editorial fee, which was a certain amount. And it wasn't it wasn't, amazing fees, but it was I we had long discussions and we really we had a really great relationship working together.
Jim Stephenson:So I trusted them that that was that was as much as they could. But every now and again, they'd get, like, a lighting designer to sponsor the film because their product was in it. And then we'd get, like, a proper budget. And it didn't change the amount of work that I put in. It just meant that I got paid more, and and the AJ didn't have to pay anything, which is lovely.
Jim Stephenson:But it did mean that we were having to feature the lighting more than we necessarily would.
Dave Sharp:Kind of spoils the film festival ish vibes to suddenly be like, now let's talk about lumens.
Jim Stephenson:Yeah. Yeah. And and the blighting was beautiful in this project, but, you there is an element of journalistic integrity at play. So I think all journalists ideally, would be commissioning everything themselves so that they get to control the message. It's not controlled by, you know, a supplier or the architect or something like that, and they get to actually, you know, review the buildings how they want to.
Jim Stephenson:And we've had that a few times. The developer magazine have been really great about that in the past, commissioning us for films that are more kind of, reviews of buildings. I I'm sure press outlets would prefer that as well. So they they get their sort of their journalistic integrities intact. The architects get a film out of it.
Jim Stephenson:I mean, they're only featuring the building in the first place because it's a good building. So in all likelihood, it's not gonna be like a sort of crushing review. And everyone gets paid, and everyone no one's out of pocket. So that would be a lovely situation, Dave. Like, let's let that'll be my Christmas wish.
Dave Sharp:Make that happen. Absolutely. I think one of the tricky things with distributing film at the moment is I still just get the feeling like we haven't quite figured out how to really make it work on Instagram yet. It is, but it's I don't think anywhere near, like, the way still is killing it on Instagram. Like, I think they're worlds apart in terms of level of, like, performance and engagement as nice as it is to, like, put in a sort of a mix of sort of Sydney stills and that sort of thing.
Dave Sharp:And and maybe, like, you know, small clips out of films. I do sometimes find that they sort of struggle, but then again, like I see reels and TikTok just absolutely dominating and taking over the world. So I know that it's there's a connection there. There's just something that we need to there's a key to unlock here, but I don't There
Jim Stephenson:there is a key, and I I think it's just down to audience. You know, like, I if I make, like, a quite a lot of my films are quite sort of slow, calm, reflective films. If you post, like, a 5 minute film in its entirety on Instagram, and you haven't even rotated it, so it appears tiny. It's, you know, it's a letterboxed film. You're really not gonna get any engagement.
Jim Stephenson:There is you can post that full film. You have to spin it so it fills the phone when you look at it. But the only re the only way it really works is if you augment that with posts that were specifically built for Instagram. This nice 4 minute film really sort of peaceful, lots of different voices in it, you know, reflective. But we've made a separate 62nd version of it that is exclusively for Instagram.
Dave Sharp:Is it portrait?
Jim Stephenson:It's portrait. It's quicker.
Dave Sharp:There we go.
Jim Stephenson:It's not we're not throwing, you know, throwing our souls out. It's not like fast paced, like, quick smash cuts, but it's quicker. And it has a bit of music in it, and it and it it's built to it's built to keep people watching to the end, and it will work better. So it's really audiences. Like, if you're putting something on TikTok or you're putting something on Reels, don't just stick up the native film.
Jim Stephenson:Like, that's that's for design or that's for the your website or that or, you know, for somewhere or YouTube where someone's gonna sit for 4 minutes. The the viewing numbers on the the if you watch the stats on Instagram about how long people watch videos for, it's rarely I mean, 60 seconds is pushing it, to be honest. So do shortcuts for that. And those shortcuts, you know, it's the old link in bio for the full film. You know, you do that.
Jim Stephenson:So it's it there's a place for it. It works really well, TikTok, Instagram, but you just have to acknowledge that you're gonna have to put a different version out on those platforms.
Dave Sharp:And it's a different creative direction as well. I've noticed even some platforms like, again, I mentioned local project, but I was kinda watching how they approach this problem. And I think initially, it was a lot of trying to take the film and just sort of transplant it over to reels or over to TikTok, and it did didn't really work that well. But then, eventually, what they actually started doing was, like, filming these separate iPhone filmed walk throughs of the house that sort of is a more extreme version of what you're talking about, but that suddenly unlocked it for them. It was like that was then suddenly really love on reels and did really well, and then that led people to the proper film, you know, which is a completely different vibe.
Dave Sharp:If we're having a nice, like, 6 minute film and we we wanna indulge in 30 seconds of just sort of quiet beautifulness at the beginning. Right? Like, we wanna do our thing and sort of set the scene and set the mood and everything, but it's like 30 seconds is a lifetime on Instagram, isn't it? We can't have, you know, little drops going into the pond with a piano track for, like, 30 for 35 seconds on Instagram. Like, we've lost 95% of the audience at that point.
Dave Sharp:So
Jim Stephenson:But, again, that goes back to the versatility. The versatility of a video is is you can cut it in different ways. So from, you know, from a day and a half filming, it's totally it's not a stretch to do those different versions. It's just a bit more editing, but it's worth it. Like, the the, you know, the outcome is is definitely worth it.
Dave Sharp:Just in terms of the interviews themselves and the storytelling, I can relate to the challenges of interviewing. It's not easy to interview and to do these sorts of things. So I know I know, Jim, you have to go through it when you're sitting architects down and sort of getting them to talk about their work. It's a very, very hard thing to do. But I guess, like, listeners who might be potentially finding themselves sat in front of your camera or somebody's camera at some point, they have to actually go into one of these interviews and come across, like, brilliant and relatable and, you know, interesting.
Dave Sharp:It's pretty challenging, isn't it? I guess, like, do you have some general kind of guidelines that you go through with guests in terms of how should they approach it? What should they be thinking about?
Jim Stephenson:I mean, the absolute biggest one is just do not write a script. It's I've never ever I've done over 300 films where we've interviewed architects, and never once has a script helped ever, ever, ever. So the point where if an architect has a script and starts reading from it, I'll say to them, can I just see that? And then I'll just take it off them and put it away and just we'll start the interview again. If you're an actor and you're trained and you, you know, you've been to RADA, you can do a script to make it sound natural.
Jim Stephenson:If you know I've never met anybody who who can do that. It just sounds really static. It sounds really fake. Yeah. Don't write a script.
Jim Stephenson:The second is, remember that, like, if I'm making a 3 minute film, I'm gonna interview you for like 20 minutes, half an hour on average. And my job you're paying me, so my job involves a responsibility to you to make you look good, or at the very least, not make you look bad. So don't worry about stumbling over your words. Don't worry about saying the wrong thing. Like, because I'm not interested.
Jim Stephenson:I'm not trying to it's not a gotcha thing. I'm not a journalist who's trying to, like, you know, uncover some scandal. I'm just talking to you about your building. Don't I know it's so difficult is to to do this, but try not to get too uptight about it. Like, it's it it should just be a flowing conversation, and then my job is to edit it, which the more flowing the conversation is, the more difficult it is to edit, but the much more natural it sounds.
Jim Stephenson:So don't worry too much about stumbling over your words. Don't try and correct yourself mid sentence. Just keep going, and trust that, you know, me and my editor are gonna be able to work it out afterwards. I I think, generally speaking, when we do interviews, the first 5 minutes are usually hardly ever usable because that's work the first 5 minutes, you're working the nerves out and and you're relaxing a little bit. And, you know, you get that thing where you and I have talked about this before where some architects sort of, you know, change adjust their posture and and become different people when they're when once you press record and they become much more serious people.
Jim Stephenson:And architecture is serious, but, you know, just try and be as natural as possible. That's how you're gonna be relatable. Don't worry about umming and r, and don't worry about stumbling your words. Don't worry about redoing stuff. And also, this is something that we've realized more recently is if you don't have an answer to a question, just say.
Jim Stephenson:It's much better if you really can't think of something, and I've asked you a question that, you know, you're struggling with, just say, actually, I don't think I've got an answer for it. Because if you try and answer it, it's not gonna work out. Like, you're gonna go around the houses 10 times, and so we'll just move on and we'll just ask the next one. But I I think that's the biggest thing. Quite often, it works quite well if somebody else from your practice is in the room with you, even if they're not on the camera, and we just make it more of a relaxed atmosphere.
Jim Stephenson:And allow time for it as well, because it it the more nervous you are, everyone in that interview, I I you know what? There's, like, 2 or 3 architects who I've worked with regularly who don't get nervous in front of the camera. They're really good at it, and they just they can route through it. But everybody else gets a bit nervous in front of the camera, and that's totally natural. Partly, it's my job to try and make you feel relaxed, but also just allow time because the more nervous you are, the longer it'll take.
Jim Stephenson:But it's not a problem. If it takes 2 hours, that's fine. It's never taken 2 hours, but if it did, it'd be totally fine with you know, we can edit it down. It's yeah. Don't over prepare.
Jim Stephenson:Have a few bullet points, and that's it. Don't write a script, and don't feel like you have to change to be in we're interviewing you because you know because you're the expert in this building. So don't feel like you gotta change anything.
Dave Sharp:You do wanna kind of go into these things somewhat spontaneously. And I guess also taking a step back in terms of thinking about how you develop an idea for the story that will be told in a film. Can that be something that's sort of preconceived and thought about and planned and sort of workshops internally to practice and then or is it something that it's like, we're there, we capture stuff, we're flying the wall, we talk for a long time, we have a chat, and then we see what happens, and then it all starts to click once we get into the edit or something. You know? Like
Jim Stephenson:It's a bit of both. So, like, we we always go in so ahead of say we're making a film for a practice, we'll have a meeting with them normally over Zoom or ideally in person, and we'll talk about the building, and we'll talk about if it's a film about a building, we'll talk about the building, and we'll talk about, like, the key stories behind it, what the messages they wanna get across are. And then I'll go away and write up a story outline that's normally based on a 3 act structure, which is the traditional story outline. And it will try and cover the key points, but also maintain a flow so it feels natural. And I'll send it back to them, and we'll do a back and forth.
Jim Stephenson:They'll say, yeah, but, actually, could we include something about this, or could we take this out? And the the story structure's not long. It's like 3 paragraphs long, but we'll just go back and forth until everyone's happy with it. So when we come to film, we've got a plan in place, and that plan covers what we're gonna ask in the interview, and it covers the kind types of shots that we require for the film as well. So we go in with a plan, but we go in knowing that that plan could change at any minute.
Jim Stephenson:We might get there, and it could be there could be a little boy dressed as the Incredible Hulk running around that changes the story completely, you know. But that's sort of the the best way to do it. Everyone feels like they can prepare a little bit. We feel like we're gonna cover all the the subject matter, but we try not to make it too prescriptive so that nobody sort of feels like they're trapped, you know, and they've got to say exactly what I need them to say at any given moment. And then also, like, this is a little secret, but quite often, I'll throw in some surprise questions, you know, and they're normally the ones we get the best answers from just to kind of, if I feel like the interview needs livening up a little bit or that we're sticking a bit too much on message, we you know, we'll we'll play around a little bit and and, yeah, it should be fun.
Jim Stephenson:I know it's nerve racking sitting in front of a camera, but we we really should just be fun. It should just be a laugh because you know, that's how we're gonna get the best the best work.
Dave Sharp:Do you always have an interview? Is there always a kind of a conversation and a voice over and a spoken narrative almost universally through your work? Because the thought that's popping into my mind is, like, the architects that I know that say, you know, like, the work really needs to speak for itself. I'm not a big I'm not I just don't feel comfortable speaking for the work. And like, totally, I'm with that in a lot of cases.
Dave Sharp:Like, I'm not against that at all. You know, there's a good point to be made on that. But what we're asking people to do is really speak for their work. Right? And that's what there's sort of some fundamental level of discomfort for some architects around that or a lot of them on some level.
Dave Sharp:So, like, maybe you speak to, like, why that's, I guess, like, essential. Right? Like, what why that's such a vital component? Also, is it something that is, like, universal on every sort of film generally? You'd always kind of recommend probably best to speak about your work on this project.
Jim Stephenson:Not necessarily, to be honest. We, we have a policy, with our studio is that we never try to convince anybody to be in a photograph, and we never try to convince anybody to do an interview. If they're unsure about it, we just say, that's cool. Like, don't worry about it. Somebody else will do it.
Jim Stephenson:It we'll cover it with somebody else. So we we never try and persuade people to do something they're not comfortable with. Quite often, what we're finding, more in the last year or so, which has been really interesting is maybe the architect doesn't want to be in it. Totally cool. They don't want to be there.
Jim Stephenson:So maybe they'll suggest somebody else from the practice who can do it, or maybe we'll interview like an end user, like the client or something instead. We've just done a film, this film that we did last week in Sunderland. We didn't interview anybody from the, design team. Actually, what we did was we had 1 person on a microphone stopping passersby and asking them what they felt about the building that they were looking at, And we're gonna cut the film from that. So it's these really informal, like, Vox pops kind of things that we're gonna do a compilation of and make the film out of that.
Jim Stephenson:So, you know, it doesn't I think it's great if the architect's comfortable with it and they can talk about their own work. That's brilliant. And in many ways, that's the best circumstance. But it doesn't have to be. You could you can always find someone else to talk about it.
Jim Stephenson:And if you can get some end users talking about how much they enjoy it, then that's a great testament to your to your building.
Dave Sharp:Similar to what you're sort of, what we're touching on earlier in terms of the photography with the public being in buildings and sort of speaking to the success of them or being evidence to that. This this idea of, like, the video or the photography brings a certain, like, I don't know, like, showcases the success of the work, which I guess is obvious because that's the objective of the whole thing. It's why we wanna make these videos. Right? I think that that actually makes a lot of sense that they don't necessarily need to appear in it.
Dave Sharp:And I think oftentimes when it comes down to it and you ask an architect to explain their work, oftentimes I feel like that that is quite a struggle to put it into words. It's not something that you necessarily need to think a lot about, through the process. And and sometimes the stuff that comes out is just like, you know, not up.
Jim Stephenson:What the thing that we run into most often is, if you've been designing a building for 5 years, you know it inside out. You know every element of it. And it's really difficult to talk about that succinctly without talking about every element of it. And quite often, if the building's quite recently finished, it's all a bit fresh and a bit raw to you as well because it's a slog getting the building finished. So sometimes we interview people and they're they're trying to tell us every single thing about this building.
Jim Stephenson:And we're like, it's wonderful that the wall ties that you used in the masonry are from, you know, recycled beach plastic. That's wonderful, but it's not gonna go in the film. We're not gonna include that. So, like, part of our job in the prep is is is to refine those stories and to to hone them down so that actually when the architect if it is the architect, when they are talking about the building, they're talking about it concisely and in a in a, you know, in a really sort of accessible way without too many acronyms, without too many technical talk so that it can have a a a big audience, is tricky. I I really enjoy the interview process.
Jim Stephenson:I'm aware that most people don't enjoy being interviewed though. So I I enjoy interviewing people. But, again, like, actually, like, honestly, 9 times out of 10, people end the interview and they were like, oh, that was fun. You know, in a surprised voice because they were expecting it to be really Like
Dave Sharp:a like a bungee jump in a way, you know. You go like, at first I said
Jim Stephenson:to him,
Dave Sharp:but I actually loved it. Yeah. That's always the reaction after interviews, it's like, oh that was great and I really hadn't really thought about any of those things before. You know, that sort of thing. So it's actually kind of a Yeah.
Dave Sharp:It's a useful thinking exercise as well-being being interviewed.
Jim Stephenson:I think it's a brilliant exercise that that we should be in the habit of doing anyway is is to talk about our work in in a sort of conversational way because you learn so much. We all know that as well. It's just you never get the chance to stop and do it. So treat it as an opportunity to to reflect on the on the on the process of making a building.
Dave Sharp:You mentioned the technical stuff where they get into the nitty gritty about sort of the masonry or whatever. That's a bit of a a common sort of pitfall that you notice. Are there any other sort of topics that you feel that architects, if they're being interview subjects, in films will tend to gravitate towards that? You you sit there listening and kind of go, oh, it's just just feels like a little bit cliche to be hearing this for the 1,000th time. Kinda wondering, are there similar things that come up in interviews where you're like, oh, come on, man.
Dave Sharp:That's boring. We've heard that.
Jim Stephenson:I tell you what, it's never boring. Like, for me, anyway, it's never boring. Boring is is contextual to who the audience is. Right? So that's that's one of the early discussions we have with the architect is like, who is your audience for this?
Jim Stephenson:If your audience is, you're making a film for the BRIC Awards, then we'll talk about bricks. But if your audience is like the general public, we're not gonna spend that long talking about bricks. We're gonna talk about something different. So it's about audience, I guess, and the and you you try and fit the film into the context of that. Yeah.
Jim Stephenson:That means you you always get the same sort of stuff come up. Like, you know, architecture architecture is prevalent with buzzwords and stuff, and everyone's everyone's guilty of repeating some of them. So, you know, we get that a little bit. But the good thing about again, the good thing about video is you haven't written an essay that's just been published online. We can edit it out.
Jim Stephenson:We can change it. We can edit. So I try not to in the course of an interview, I try not to say, let's not talk about her because it like, everyone talks about that. I just let them talk about it, then I just don't put it in the finished film. The only thing is, like, you know, we we're getting it less and less and less, but there was a period where everyone was saying before COVID or during lockdown.
Jim Stephenson:And I started to say, look. Let's not talk about lockdown. Let, like, you know, we're gonna talk about, you know, something else. But actually, I I try not to be too sort of intrusive when people are when I'm interviewing people. I just try and let them.
Jim Stephenson:Because sometimes, actually, it's a mental process. They just need to get certain things out of their system before we can get onto the good stuff. You know? So, like, just give them I just give them the space to do that. I've never ever done an interview that we haven't used.
Jim Stephenson:Like, we've always found something in every even with the most, like, painfully nervous people who can who as soon as you turn the camera on, they can barely get a word out. We've always managed to get something that sounds really good out of it. Because, again, like, we need, like, seconds from it. There's always something in every interview we've done.
Dave Sharp:I am keen to kind of know, like, what is getting you excited at the moment in architectural film and photography. Thinking about, like, architectural photography and film's potential to kind of raise the bar in the architecture world, like, make architecture better, make it more awesome. Yeah. Raise everyone up and kind of set set a higher standard. And I just like the power of that, and I'm kind of interested in your thoughts on that as well.
Dave Sharp:So
Jim Stephenson:first of all, what's getting me excited about it? I mean, architectural filmmaking in particular is is in relative infancy. We have been making films about architecture since Le Corbusier, you know, like, since the thirties in the films that he was making. So and the Eames were doing it, and, you know, it's been happening. But really, in a more sort of broad sense, an architect in terms of how accessible it is, it's in its in its infancy.
Jim Stephenson:When you look at something like fast the fashion industry, they've been using film for decades, decades decades, really, really well. And now they've kind of progressed into this there's a lot more, experimental techniques being used, and they're borrowing more from they borrow more from cinema and things like that. So what I'm really interested in is I'm learning a lot more about, broader filming outside of the architecture industry and how we can apply elements of that into architectural filmmaking. And I'm really enjoying that. And I'm actually in this period of of reflection right now where I've got a bit of downtime.
Jim Stephenson:I'm really getting excited about getting back into it and using a few new techniques, and and, I think that's really, really exciting. And and interviewing the users of buildings as well in a more sort of a documentary way and less of a kind of, commercial film way. It is super exciting. So I just think filmmaking's I I I love it. Like, it's a really steep learning curve, and I'm absolutely loving it.
Jim Stephenson:I'm always a little reluctant to I'm very aware that my profession, traditionally, particularly photography side of it, is, kind of lots of the time, it's one person on their own doing everything. And it sort of lends itself a bit like architecture sometimes to the sort of myth of the lone genius, you know, who can solve everything through through their artistic endeavor. And I'm always really reluctant to join in in that or to have any part of that because I because I think it's rubbish. So I don't know about I don't wanna get too much into the sort of, you know, architectural imagery raising the bar, but you you have to sort of hope it is. I mean, I I hope that, my I hope that my images, whether they be still images or moving images, I hope that, first of all, they provide a little trailer for what it's like to be there in that building, and it might encourage people to go and see it or to learn more about the architects or something like that.
Jim Stephenson:So that's the sort of hope is that, and actually, you know, outside of our little architecture bubble, architects don't have a stereotype of an architect isn't particularly complimentary. So, actually, what with the film in particular, where the architects get a voice and they get to talk, what I really hope that it I hope it raises the bar. I hope we get better buildings from them. But, actually, what I really hope is it shows to the general public. The architects are people who just really, really, really care about something, and they really wanna do good things.
Jim Stephenson:And they're not like in their ivory towers dropping glass tower blocks, you know, on top of people's houses, you know, they're they're really they care about these things, and and a lot of thought and love goes into a building. And and I hope that, you know, in a tiny little way, our film can can help express that a little bit.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jim.
Jim Stephenson:Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure, Dave. Love seeing you.
Dave Sharp:We'll have you back in a few more years. Thanks, mate. That was my conversation with Jim Stevenson. If you'd like to learn more about his work, you can visit clickclickjim.com or follow him on Instagram at clickclickjimorstephensonand_cuts. OfficeTalk is supported by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture.
Dave Sharp:Our practice works collaboratively with clients across the UK. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp dot com. Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much, and I'll see you next time.