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A weekly interview podcast hosted by Melissa Hague features Courageous Coaches who explore the grit and bones of what it takes to be truly courageous. Whether you're a coach, consultant, or a leader, join us each week to explore what it really takes to be transformational in your coaching practice, your business, and your life.
Melissa Hague (00:01.39)
Welcome everyone to the Courageous Coaching podcast. I might just correct that Julie, because that's not great, it? get quite a lot of the podcast, correct? Right, okay. Welcome everybody to the Courageous Coaching podcast. Thank you so much for being here and listening in. Today I'm joined by Julie Luscombe and I'm really looking forward to this conversation. As always, I've got no idea where it's going to go, but I'm super curious. So Julie, thank you so much.
for coming on the podcast, for being here and joining us today. So as we always do, let's start by you telling us a little bit about yourself.
Julie Luscombe (00:30.885)
You're welcome.
Julie Luscombe (00:42.267)
Well, to start with, I'm speaking to you from Jersey in the Channel Islands, which is, I'm born and bred here and this is where I work as a coach. But I've had three different careers that I would say have led me to where I am now. And they all have a sort of relevance to actually becoming a coach. So I trained as a mental health nurse actually in the NHS in England. I left to go and do that. I did that for about 20.
years and then I transitioned into public health where I worked on mental health strategy and suicide prevention work and health inequalities and then ended up qualifying as a teacher and a senior lecturer again in the mental health field. And the reason that that's all relevant is because all of those three professions, all of which I've been lucky enough to love, had involved people, supporting people to reach their potential.
in some way. So I've always had that sort of coach leaning in terms of asking questions to support people to find to find their own answers. And it came to the pandemic, where I was actually working as a head of education up at a local hospice. And the world of work changed as it did for many, many people. My job very much changed and turned into something completely different. And it was one of those times where I think a lot of us just reassessed
our priorities and what we wanted to do. And I used all my holiday money and holiday time in the pandemic because no one was doing going anywhere anyway, to actually retrain as a professional coach with one of the ICF accredited courses. Loved it. Absolutely loved it. But thought it would be a retirement plan. Thought that's what I'll do, you know, when I when I've stopped work, but I loved it so much. And it was at the time of the pandemic. was like, why don't I just
have a go, I could actually try this and set up by myself. So that's what I did. But I'm putting a psychological safety net in place and not that much of a financial safety net. But I just thought, if this doesn't work, I'm a nurse. I'm going to be able to pay the bills in some way. But four and a half years on from that decision, I'm still here and I'm loving it.
Melissa Hague (02:53.922)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (03:02.51)
Okay, so four and a half years in and the plan B hasn't been required at all. mean that that in itself is to be celebrated, right, to have made very bold, very courageous decision. And I'm really struck by the kind of parallel between your career, which has clearly been very focused on
Julie Luscombe (03:12.184)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (03:27.758)
mental health and wellbeing in a number of different roles. And now you've moved into that kind of coaching space and you've recognised the similarities between how you were working, the type of working you were doing in the mental health space. And like you said, I think you said coach-like, right? It felt coach-like. So I'm wondering, because I don't think you'll be alone in the whole kind of, I was in the pandemic, I wonder what, oh, I could...
Julie Luscombe (03:46.607)
Yeah, yeah.
Julie Luscombe (03:53.829)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (03:56.376)
train as a coach, but that where was what happened in the gap? how did knowing how did you know about coaching? How did you know that was something that you even wanted to train in?
Julie Luscombe (04:08.261)
There we do well being as I was head of education, we bought in a local coach quite often to do some coaching skills with our leaders. And it just felt such a natural fit. And also during the pandemic, there were these amazing free courses going on and we had a session from one of the UK coach Tracy Forsyth.
who is his, she works in the media, in the media area, but she did a session for us locally. And some of the questions that she asked us online, actually, it was like a vision exercise. was, you know, imagine yourself in five years time, et cetera, et cetera. And I wrote on that bit of paper, I would, I will be training as a coach at that point. And I'm like, I don't even know where that came from, but that was definitely in my head.
And then as our reticular activating system does to us, I kept noticing courses for coaches appearing because my brain had suddenly realized that this was something to focus on. This is something interesting. And did a lot of research and, and ended up finding one that really worked for me. But interestingly, where I started isn't actually where I ended up because I had this vision when I started, but I wanted to support everybody to thrive at work, their best self at work.
Melissa Hague (05:03.639)
rest.
Melissa Hague (05:25.88)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (05:26.683)
Nobody was thriving. We were just coming out of the pandemic. And because I was known in the healthcare world, many of my early clients were nurses, social workers, healthcare professionals, and they most certainly were not thriving at that point. And it was becoming much more of a obvious to me that it was what people were approaching me for was not about thinking about their future at that stage. It was about how do I get through?
Melissa Hague (05:34.54)
Mm-hmm.
Julie Luscombe (05:55.899)
the here and now, was that real overload and feeling overextended and overwhelmed. And I did resist that a little bit in my head at first. I was like, I want to leave the dark side. I want to go into the brightness of flourishing. But in the end, I was like, no, this is this is what people are needing at the moment. And this is something I can support. But because
Even though I was a mental health nurse, I still felt I had a responsibility to understand a little bit more about the burnout world. So I did do an extra qualification last year in exit certification and have, and since then it was the, I'm now a certified coach with the balance ology Institute and Jane Morris, because I just wanted that extra information behind me, credibility for myself, but also for my clients, that this is an area that it's okay to talk about.
there is a way through this and it's not a depressing area to work in at all. It's actually wonderful to see people move through a period of overwhelm and overload and come out the other side.
Melissa Hague (07:03.31)
I think that's so interesting, there's lots in there, Julie, that's piqued my curiosity. But I'm thinking about this piece around, we often talk about coaching being future-focused, right? And often in a way of, we do it because we want to distinguish between coaching and therapy often, so we talk about it as future-focused, future goals, moving forward. And then there's this kind of question around,
Julie Luscombe (07:17.563)
Mmm.
Julie Luscombe (07:24.037)
Really?
Melissa Hague (07:33.174)
moving forward, maybe, right? But what about the here and now? Right, what am I in right now? And I always remember early on in my coach training, somebody quoted, shared a quote with me, and annoyingly, I can't remember who the quote was now, but maybe I'll look it up and put it in the show notes. But it's that, you know, clients are always already in the middle of something.
Julie Luscombe (07:37.018)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (07:58.67)
Right here and now they are in the middle of something. if we're outcome, future focus, what's the goal? What are we moving towards in the future? We can lose that kind of, what are they in the middle of right now?
Julie Luscombe (08:09.168)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (08:14.031)
Sometimes you just need to support someone to settle their nervous system down so that they can think clearly about what next. And interestingly, that is what happens. Even some of the most overwhelmed people within two or three conversations have settled their nervous system down enough with maybe some pragmatic tools and strategies that then they can start to think, okay, what next? What do I want to happen? Where do I want to be? But they can't have that clarity of thought when they're in the middle of that overwhelm.
Melissa Hague (08:42.926)
Yeah, because that slows our decision making. It fills our brain with lots of noise and critical voices and all of that stuff, which makes it very difficult for us to see beyond being in the middle of something right here and right now. Yeah. Okay. And I'm also really curious about this sense that you had as a coach, journey, I guess, that you made from
Julie Luscombe (08:53.775)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (09:00.537)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (09:11.882)
I want to help people flourish and thrive and realize their potential, which I think nearly all, I can't say all coaches, but nearly all the coaches I've spoken to either on the podcast or through my work would all say that, right? I want to help people. I mean, I say, I want to help people unlock their potential and want them and you know, and, and it's true, right? Absolutely. Isn't that a great, it's a very admirable thing to want to happen.
Julie Luscombe (09:22.789)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (09:26.799)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Melissa Hague (09:38.476)
And then, but there's also this piece you said around, hang on, don't, I'm not sure I want to work with this slightly darker, maybe heavier, not quite so joyful stuff, right? I want to be about the flourishing. So how did you, how did you settle that for yourself? Because you said that you have, you, you know, so I'm wondering, what was that process that you went through?
Julie Luscombe (09:48.676)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (09:52.655)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (09:59.568)
Yes.
Julie Luscombe (10:03.981)
It was through the first few clients, I would say, when it became very obvious. I mean, everyone's different. everyone's, I will see people off, hopefully I get to see people in the early stages of they've spotted they might be on the road to burnout. And that's a much, that's an easier process to take someone through because they haven't completely lost that clarity of thought.
Melissa Hague (10:26.392)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (10:27.151)
But I was noticing with my clients that it doesn't take more than a few conversations for them to settle and to start thinking about what they could do. And what I am seeing, particularly in people that have been through the process before, and I'm talking burnout rather than coaching process, is a sense of real post-traumatic growth and a sense of excitement about this doesn't have to be like this. I do actually have some control over this situation. I do have some choices I can make.
Melissa Hague (10:43.341)
Hmm.
Julie Luscombe (10:56.283)
and I can make some different decisions. sometimes it's about being at peace, it's falling back in love with the job that you loved in the first place. That happens more often than not. With others, it's being at peace with the decision to do something different. But one of my favorite joyful moments, who was one of the people who was the most overwhelmed when I first started, she, and I did not see this one coming. She had lots of ideas about, eventually had lots of ideas about what she could do to make her life a little bit more balanced.
Melissa Hague (11:10.958)
you
Melissa Hague (11:26.104)
Mmm.
Julie Luscombe (11:26.575)
She only ended up taking a sabbatical from a job that she loved and she's now back in it. But she took, her and her husband took her kids out and they went traveling around the world for six months. I did not see that one coming. Absolutely did not see that coming. We hadn't even discussed that, anything like that in the coaching sessions, but about month after we finished our conversations, that's what she decided to do. And she's now back in her job that she absolutely loves and has just got a completely different mindset around that.
So I don't, I no longer feel of it, feel it as a dark place to work because I just see that that's a big shift, but often I see little shifts, little shifts. And people are often saying to me, if I bump into Jersey being Jersey, see most of my work is face to face. So I bump into people a lot of the time and it's all, and I'm known as the circle of control lady. I'm still using my circle of control. I keep coming back to that. And you're like, if that's all anyone ever takes, I'm happy with that.
Melissa Hague (12:12.878)
Right. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love that. I'm not Julie. I'm the circle of control. How brilliant How brilliant is that? So okay, so let's let's just talk about burnout for a minute because I think there's something really a couple of things.
Julie Luscombe (12:25.475)
because that's so powerful.
Julie Luscombe (12:30.395)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (12:41.794)
very interesting because you said, there's the, there are stages of burnout. I mean, I'm, I'm very, my knowledge of this is very limited. So I'm, really curious to learn myself here. Right. But I think my understanding is, there are stages of burnout that I think, I mean, probably different people say different things, but I think I've heard 12 stages of burnout or something. And the earlier we can spot it and make change, you know, the more likely we are to not hit that kind of full debilitating really burnout. Right.
Julie Luscombe (13:08.9)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (13:11.35)
And so I'm wondering, obviously you're working with your clients around those kinds of topics and working through burnout. But what do you see in the kind of coaching profession for us as coaches maybe around burnout for coaches ourselves?
Julie Luscombe (13:30.651)
Well, yeah, that's really interesting because I've been looking at research around this lately because I was delivering a session for one of the ICF chapters on exactly this topic. And there is a gap in the research around burnout for coaches. But if you class this as a helping profession, then there is plenty, plenty of it. And if you couple that with often coaches are self-employed coaches, that adds a different element to it because there's a lot of burnout in solopreneurs as well.
Melissa Hague (13:51.575)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (14:00.878)
you
Julie Luscombe (14:01.177)
So it's about, it's two things. I think when you're a solopreneur, you've got that work ethic, because you've got to pay the bills. So you've got to work out what you're going to say yes and no to and keep the lights on as it were. So there's all that setting up and the keeping the business going that we will put pressure on ourselves to keep going. But there's also the act of coaching in itself, no matter how professional we are in terms of boundaries.
Melissa Hague (14:14.2)
Mmm.
Julie Luscombe (14:27.105)
and accessing supervision, this work still packs an emotional punch. And so, for example, when I decided to specialize particularly in burnout, I actually reduced my client load because I'm hearing a lot of dark stuff sometimes, who want of a better word, because people are in really difficult situations often. And as a responsibility to myself and to my clients, I had to think about, how many of these conversations
Melissa Hague (14:42.766)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (14:56.097)
is how can I show up for my last client of the day in the same way that I show up for my first client, which I'm sure we all think about. So I had to think about that because it's an emotional impact on us. It's a business impact on us, but also it's the same with any client. It's our own stuff in our heads in terms of whether we're somebody that has a sense of over responsibility, if we're perfectionists.
If we feel like if we don't something, nothing's going to get done. If we've got rescue attendancies. So we've got all the same stuff going psychologically that can contribute to burnout as any of my clients do. So it's really about that, that self-awareness. It's about self-awareness of how much of what our own psychological drivers are and how they impact on us. It's about not overloading our client diary. Cause we don't all just see clients. Most of us, would say, have probably got a bit of a portfolio.
Melissa Hague (15:35.992)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (15:54.04)
Absolutely.
Julie Luscombe (15:54.171)
I mean, now the majority of my work is clients, but I've got about 20 % of that is training delivery as well. So it's a real responsibility to think I need to show up in the best possible place for all of those aspects. So I need to plot that carefully, but also I need to put in stuff for myself. So as coaches and as self-employed people, our self-care, our, at what restores us can sometimes be the first to go, but I'm quite
Melissa Hague (16:02.168)
Mmm.
Julie Luscombe (16:24.101)
quite strict with myself because I need to practice what I coach. I'm out there talking about burnout. I can't then be running around like a headless chicken, not organizing myself well. But one of the biggest changes that I did and I talked to people about all the time is I know what works for me in terms of restoration for my mental health, physical health, what keeps me on an even keel. I plot that in the diary first every week. I look at what the week is going to look like.
Melissa Hague (16:27.49)
Haha, yeah.
Julie Luscombe (16:52.291)
And then, and it'll be different every week. And then, okay, what do I need to be the best I can be this week? And I plot it in, whether it's a yoga session, whether it's a walk, whether it's time with family and friends, that is not gonna get canceled. Because the red flags for me is when I start canceling stuff, to do a bit more work, that is a complete red flag for me to like, okay, okay, what's going on here? Put it back in.
Melissa Hague (17:09.111)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (17:13.582)
you
Melissa Hague (17:19.002)
gosh, that is, it really resonates. Because I'm, Julie, I just, I'm really conscious of this idea that when we're employed, right, maybe as a coach, but or in our employed life, before we became, you know, independent coaches, there was a lot, there's a lot in us, I believe that, you know, can lead to that overwhelm that stress, eventually that burnout.
Julie Luscombe (17:39.397)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (17:47.003)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (17:48.93)
But there's also a lot in the system often around us, right? The organization, the people we work with, the structures, know, all of that stuff, the culture we're working in. And one of the things I notice now it's just me, you know, I am the organization, is that...
Julie Luscombe (17:54.607)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (18:05.848)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (18:09.902)
I've lost the, I'm going to call it a comfort blanket. I've lost the comfort blanket of saying, oh, well, you know, that's my, if my boss hadn't done that, but I don't want to let them, you know, I don't want to, they won't like it if I don't do that, or that's not what's expected of me in this system or in this, and very rarely did I look inward at what I might be doing.
Julie Luscombe (18:28.762)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (18:36.612)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (18:37.128)
right? Or how I might be playing a part in that, I guess. Now, there's just me. And it's kind of like that realization of there's no one else now, or nothing else now, that I can kind of blame, or push the blame away from myself and onto others, right? So there's more of that looking inward at the things that
Julie Luscombe (18:47.312)
Yep.
Julie Luscombe (18:55.918)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (18:59.886)
you know, we need to do very practical things like you were saying, you know, around diary management and how many clients can we manage a day and, all of those very practical things and running the business. And then also really recognizing the, you know, the weight of the work that we do, the different mindsets we need to be in for different types of work. If most of us, as you say, I've got portfolios of work, but they require different skills, maybe different mindsets.
Julie Luscombe (19:20.431)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (19:25.858)
So we're switching, we're changing up, we're checking in on what are we transmitting to the client? there's this immediately for me without really being deliberate. Well, I am deliberate about it now, but to begin with, was like, hang on. This is really, I've got to look inward because there's only me. There's only me. And if I have a really stressful, busy week or, you know, or things, things are getting on top of me. It's only me who can make the change, right? Only me whose response was, so.
Julie Luscombe (19:40.345)
Yeah. Yes.
Julie Luscombe (19:52.143)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (19:54.774)
So this, you know, looking inward is hard or hard, not gonna say harder, but hard because you can't off, well, I can't blame anyone else. Well, if I'm not blaming anyone, I'll that.
Julie Luscombe (20:05.487)
No, you're absolutely right. That came up in some recent research by Nick Petrie. I don't know whether you've come across him. He's a leadership researcher and he's just spent two or three years specifically looking at burnout across sectors. And he found some commonalities in those that in high pressure roles that burnt out and some of them were self-employed, but also some commonalities in those that didn't, which was really interesting.
But one thing he did notice on those that burnt out is that when they had been through the burnout experience, and initially there was a lot of blame, and sometimes quite rightly so, on the circumstances of the organization that they work with, unrealistic workloads, pressures, et cetera, all of them had been able to identify once they got a bit more clarity of thought back, that there was something they did to contribute to that situation. Whether it was not setting boundaries, which was saying yes constantly, which was their own...
Melissa Hague (20:40.513)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (20:45.614)
Mmm.
Julie Luscombe (21:00.259)
I've been near burnout twice. The first time it was because an organization was very much putting unrealistic pressures and expectations on us. The second time, it was all me. It was all me because the organization I was working with did not put that much pressure on me. And I remember one manager saying to me, two different things actually, one manager said to me, you do realize you don't have to do the whole job description in the first six months.
And I remember looking at them and going, yes, I do. You know, just because that's always the way I've worked, just on, on, on. And another manager called me a machine. He's like, Luscombe, you're a machine. I took that as a compliment. It wasn't a compliment, but I was a real productivity ninja. And I was just like, do, do, do, deliver, deliver, deliver. So my, my work ethic contributed to that. And when I first went into my coaching world,
Melissa Hague (21:37.89)
Right.
Julie Luscombe (21:54.681)
I have to admit, I have to be really honest here, Melissa, for the first six to nine months, I recreated that corporate busyness. And I sort of almost had that corporate hangover. I was like, and then I just reached this realization, like, what have I, I forgot to give myself any annual leave for the first nine months. And I'm just like, what am I doing? The whole point of doing this was to, you know, have a bit more autonomy, flexibility, and I've just recreated that whole thing. So that was the point where I really started.
Melissa Hague (22:11.374)
Right.
Julie Luscombe (22:24.089)
being so intentional about everything I was doing back to the values. Why am I doing what I'm doing? Why, what am I saying yes to? What am I saying no to? And starting putting in the stuff that was going to keep me well and bring me joy as well. And I've managed to maintain that. It's a, it's a work in progress. It is for all of us because it's a bottomless workload and we've all got strong work ethics if we're doing it ourselves. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (22:42.06)
Yes, absolutely.
Melissa Hague (22:46.368)
Yes, exactly. I think, I think the thing I noticed the most, you know, being having my own business and it just being me is and I think I most coaches, I'm sure yourself, Julia's well, you recognize that, you know, it does ebb and flow, right? There are periods of what feels like very, very busy, sometimes good busy, I call good busy and sometimes not so good busy, you know, and then there are moments of I've got nothing.
Julie Luscombe (23:07.503)
Yes. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (23:15.058)
on and hang on I need to look at the pipeline because now I'm getting a little bit nervous about what might be coming. I mean I've learnt and similar to you I would suspect that you know that from a trough there is always a peak it you know it and so therefore I've learnt to I've learnt to write yeah a little bit I try and make sure the peaks aren't too high so too much busyness and that the troughs aren't too low so there's there's a bit slightly smaller but they're still there but I think
Julie Luscombe (23:17.817)
Hmm.
Julie Luscombe (23:26.991)
Yes.
to write the wave. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (23:38.18)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (23:43.035)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (23:45.354)
what I noticed the most is that when you love what you do, and if you've chosen to go self-employed and set up your own business, sincerely hope everyone who's listening, sincerely hope that you love what you do. Otherwise, you know, that's kind of the driver, right? We love what we do, we want more of that work. We're in a, as you called it earlier on, right, we're in a helping profession. Generally, I know I do, we love people, we want to help people, you know, we're curious about people.
Julie Luscombe (23:58.202)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (24:01.87)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (24:14.794)
all of that good stuff. And so there's that real, that drive to do more of that work, because why wouldn't I? Because I love it. I love it, you know. And that is, sometimes become an excuse for doing more than we should as well, right? And then of course, when we, when we, know for me, if I hit a trough, I've got to manage my, gosh, I'm failing, or I'm not doing this good enough, or you know, all of the inner critic stuff.
Julie Luscombe (24:23.129)
Yes.
Julie Luscombe (24:30.191)
Yes.
Julie Luscombe (24:41.135)
Yeah. I'm sorry.
Melissa Hague (24:44.376)
But what I also have to find ways to do in those low moments, not low, in those quiet periods, is to find ways to take care of myself. Well, this is a great opportunity. I can take the day out with my parents. I'm off on Friday afternoon to take my parents to the cinema in the middle of the day. my goodness. Yeah. it's, how do I use this? I've got a little bit more time.
Julie Luscombe (24:55.801)
Yes. Yes.
Julie Luscombe (25:05.369)
Yeah, it is. It's a real reframe, isn't it? Yeah.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (25:12.686)
quiet this week, there's not a lot of work on. Okay, I could either do a load of business development work and panic and try and get more work in my pipeline, or I could take care of myself right now. So yeah, it's a it's a real learning curve that I think when you become self employed. And I have to at this point, bring it back to courage, right? Because I think everything you've talked about so far, when it comes to that idea of
Julie Luscombe (25:21.381)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (25:38.274)
you know, recognizing when we're in the early stages of burnout, you know, recognizing and owning our part and, you know, and making changes and being intentional, as you said, that lovely word, being intentional about, you know, how we spend our time. All of these things require courage, right? They require us to be courageous and often they are, or they also come with lots of vulnerability and, and, you know, fear and...
shame, maybe anxiety, maybe, know, scarcity, comparison, all of those things show up in those courageous moments, right. And so I'm wondering for you, Julie, what does courageous coaching look like for you in your work as a coach?
Julie Luscombe (26:15.472)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (26:23.675)
Yeah. Well, having listened to quite a few of your episodes before, I know I've got a lot in common, so I won't repeat in terms of that courage of setting up in the first place and the courage to market yourselves, et cetera. But for me, the bit before the actual coaching bit that sticks in my mind for courage is actually, I hear a lot of people saying the courage to say no to certain things that don't fit. But for me, sometimes it's been the courage to say yes.
because that imposter syndrome will kick in for me because my comfort zone was health and social care staff. But it no longer is in terms of I've got people from across sectors approaching me now and from senior executive level. And my first instinct when that started to happen was like, you know, surely you don't mean me, et cetera. But so I've had to have the courage to say yes.
Melissa Hague (27:10.83)
You
Julie Luscombe (27:18.469)
to people to get out of my own way with that thinking, well, surely you're looking for somebody who calls themselves an executive coach, that means, because that's not how I was describing myself. But if somebody is wanting to talk about burnout or avoiding burnout, then I'm possibly the right person for them. So I've said, instead of putting myself off before I've even met them for an initial conversation.
Melissa Hague (27:28.974)
Mmm.
Julie Luscombe (27:43.139)
I have got into the habit of saying yes, and I've noticed the more I've done that, the less I am worried about it. So those little steps of courage have been quite important. But then it's when you're in the coaching relationship, I mean, I work with courageous clients all the time, because to actually pick up the phone or to email me and say, I think I need some support with this is massively courageous, because no one speaks about it. Everyone thinks they should be coping.
Melissa Hague (27:51.714)
Mm.
Julie Luscombe (28:10.179)
around stress and burnout and it's quite hard to admit. Sometimes I get people approaching me who don't use that word, who just say, I'd quite like to think about what my next direction is. And I'm thinking, no, I might not be the right person, but let's have a chat. And within that first conversation, it's no, I'm burnt out. just can't, I couldn't actually bring myself to say that, to say that word. so my courage has been about leaning into that space because I did avoid it for quite a while.
Melissa Hague (28:21.762)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (28:27.394)
to use the word.
Julie Luscombe (28:36.761)
and just to be there for whatever the client needs at the time. Because when I first trained as a coach, I wanted to do pure coaching and I wanted to just, and then I started panicking and thinking, well, who's gonna pay me just to listen to them? And all those sort of self doubts came in. And then I just had to put that aside and go, look, just trust what you've learned, trust the process. And so all those little things were acts of courage as I worked my way.
through this maze, what does this look like for me and what did my clients need from me? So the courage has come from trusting the process and then meeting the client where they're at, whatever that needs. And also, if it's not me that somebody needs, I'm very, very happy to make other suggestions if required, because we're not always right for some people.
Melissa Hague (29:24.974)
No, no, and they're not always right for us either. And I think that comes back to the what do we say yes to and what do we say no to, right. And I think I spent probably, I can't put maybe at least the first two years of being in business of trying to work out what I wanted to say yes to and wanted to say no to.
Julie Luscombe (29:31.45)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (29:36.666)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (29:50.555)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (29:52.982)
and then saying yes and no to those things. So there was a journey. For me, I think, you I often hear people early on in their business saying, you know, I'm saying yes to everything, I need to say no. I'm like, do you though? When you say you're saying yes to everything, you know, I often find that what's behind what's driving that for a lot of people is curiosity, like, I wonder if I could and hmm, I could try that, that could be interesting, right? Because
Julie Luscombe (29:55.183)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (30:22.57)
I know for me, when I started, didn't, I kind of knew vaguely the kind of business I wanted, right? But I didn't know the specifics yet. So I spent quite a bit of time trying to work that out, right? What is it that I want to say yes to? And then I'd do a piece of work, or I'd work with a particular client. And I think, I don't know, that's not lighting me up. That's no, it was okay. And they paid their bill and yay, but you know, so
Julie Luscombe (30:43.995)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (30:48.067)
Yes, yes, I know what you mean.
Melissa Hague (30:51.054)
I had to learn that I didn't just know it, I had to learn that was one of those beautiful things that you learn by doing right? What the yes to and what we say no to. And you said such an important thing, Julie is that I think I talk a lot about the fact that courage is contagious, right? So if we are asking or expecting even our clients to be courageous and vulnerable with us, then we need to be courageous and vulnerable.
Julie Luscombe (30:52.474)
Yeah
Julie Luscombe (30:57.019)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (31:16.922)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (31:19.692)
to write that it and almost quite often we need to be the ones who go first as well right to sort of to embody that and to let them know it's okay and this is this is what it's okay to do this to be this to try this in this space that we have together. The thing you just said was really interesting to me because actually for the for our clients before they've even sometimes met us for the first time.
Julie Luscombe (31:24.355)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (31:46.028)
just the very fact that they've picked up the phone or written an email was an act of courage and vulnerability for them. Because ultimately what they're doing is they're reaching out for help, right? They're asking for help. Sometimes blatantly, and sometimes it's simmering under the surface, isn't it? You I'd like to try coaching. I'd like to see if it can help me, right? It's simmering under the surface, but it's still asking for help, And that is courageous and vulnerable. So...
Julie Luscombe (31:48.442)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (31:52.826)
Yes.
Julie Luscombe (31:56.443)
there.
Julie Luscombe (32:00.421)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (32:07.193)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (32:13.246)
just reminded me right that it's not just about in relationship with our clients that that interplay of courage and vulnerability in the relationship and for each of and for each of us. But also they they actually have already made the first move because they picked up the phone or wrote an email or whatever right.
Julie Luscombe (32:26.661)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (32:30.095)
They have, and that's where I found the thing that I avoided near the beginning was the LinkedIn stuff, but I embrace it now and I love it because that has been one of the biggest factors in people finding me. And I'm sure other coaches listening to this will probably have found the same because I write about burnout a lot. I write about the experience of it, as in the types of problems that people are experiencing during in it. And the people that I meet have been watching those posts.
for a while before they pick up the phone. Because it's it's not, I'm not a nice to have. I'm not like, it's not, you don't necessarily want to need me for at all, which I'm a bit like the dentist maybe, I don't know in terms of that, but people will recognise themselves. I think that's the most important, to support their courage in coming forward. I need them to know that they're not on their own in feeling like this. So I often post about that.
common dilemmas or thoughts that people are having when they feel they're nearing burnout or feeling stressed and overwhelmed. And even if those people will never like the posts, because that's almost like outing yourself as feeling like that, is they will often say to me, that was me, you were writing about me at that point. So it's just like those gentle nudges to courage along the way. Because even if it's not me, they find.
Melissa Hague (33:39.96)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (33:51.739)
Recognising themselves and knowing they're not alone, they may find some other form of support because I'll often signpost resources and that. I don't really care where they get the support from but if someone's feeling like that, I want them to know where to go so that that doesn't have to get worse.
Melissa Hague (34:06.914)
Yeah, yeah, that they can ask for help, right? Whether that's downloading a resource or having a conversation, right? It's still reaching out, it's still getting that help and support that they need. And, and see, I again, I have to come to the LinkedIn thing, because I think this is super interesting. And I think because I know, you know, many people who are listening will be, you know, maybe earlier on in their business journey than the new and IR, but they also may be at the same point and not
Julie Luscombe (34:10.094)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yes.
Melissa Hague (34:34.126)
really haven't yet embraced social media or LinkedIn or whatever. And look, you don't have to embrace it. I'm not, I'm not a marketing girl. I'm just going to put a caveat here, right? This is not a marketing podcast. I'm not here to tell you to niche or not niche or no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I'm really interested in this thing you just said about LinkedIn because I'm also a lover of LinkedIn. It's actually the only social media platform I use for business really.
Julie Luscombe (34:49.637)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (34:57.957)
Me too, yeah.
Melissa Hague (35:00.462)
And I love it. do love it. And that's where my people hang out. And that's the thing you have to work out, right? Where do my people hang out? That's the thing, right? But you said such an interesting thing because the trouble that we have with all the challenge we have with social media and particularly around kind of comparison and scarcity is that, oh, look at that person's post. It's got 9,472 likes and it's got
Julie Luscombe (35:04.345)
Yes. Yes, absolutely.
Melissa Hague (35:31.33)
500 comments, gosh, I haven't got any of that on mine. You know, I've got 200, you know, impressions and or whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? And we get into that. my posts obviously aren't as good or, know, I don't know. I need to be more like them and all of that. But the reality is, and this is true for many, many coaches is certainly for yourself. And actually it's true for me as well. I'm talking a lot about things like shame.
Julie Luscombe (35:34.757)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (35:43.705)
Yes.
Julie Luscombe (35:47.525)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (36:00.498)
vulnerability. It's like who wants to like a post that's talking about shame, right? No one wants to admit that they're... No one is going to like that post, right? Or comment on it, let alone blinking comment on it because that's very vulnerable. But people are watching and they are reading, right? And they're... and is you quite right. Hopefully it's helping. So it's so important, isn't it, to do...
Julie Luscombe (36:05.115)
Yes. Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (36:17.413)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (36:28.6)
just, I think on LinkedIn, or any social media, but on LinkedIn, particularly for me, there's something about being honest and talking about what the struggles are and trusting that it's getting out there because the strategy and analytics don't always tell the truth, do they?
Julie Luscombe (36:43.077)
Yeah.
No, they don't. And that's not why we're in the business either. It is about to get messages across to people and to encourage people to get support for whatever the issue, whether, know, burnout's one. But I had to, that was an act of courage myself was to actually get over myself and just get posting on LinkedIn. Because when I first started, I used to literally, I used to be mortified, mortified at putting my stuff out there. And I often would have my hand over my eyes like that as I press send, because I'm just like, my God, this is just.
I don't like this at all, but now I love it. I actually don't care what the likes are because I feel like I'm having a chat. I'm having an online chat and someone described it to me and I really liked it once. Think of LinkedIn as a giant conference that you're just sharing breakout information in there. And I just thought, I like that. I can cope with that. I'm just sharing information if it's helpful to someone brilliant. But I've made some fantastic connections with other coaches. I found you on there, Melissa.
Melissa Hague (37:23.459)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (37:35.072)
nice
Melissa Hague (37:40.494)
Absolutely.
Melissa Hague (37:44.428)
Yes!
Julie Luscombe (37:45.239)
know, LinkedIn works for connections, for getting sources of support. So I'm not a marketer either, but all I can say is it's made a big impact on my business and my network.
Melissa Hague (37:56.285)
Yeah, the connections, the network, you getting your voice out there, your messaging, which is weird. You know, the stuff you're talking about is really important stuff for everyone, whether they fit into, you know, particular niches or whatever, it's important for everyone. so getting that out there, you know, putting it out there, but in an honest and open way, that's the power of LinkedIn for me. And you can spot the ones that are trying to, you know, sell something.
Julie Luscombe (37:58.224)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (38:06.96)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (38:16.42)
It is. Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (38:21.901)
Yeah. Yeah. No.
Melissa Hague (38:22.382)
a mile off, right? And there's nothing wrong with selling on LinkedIn. Hang on, want to caveat. I'm feeling the need to caveat lots of what I'm saying because I don't want anyone to think I'm a LinkedIn expert at all. It just happens to be, you know, it just happens to be my favorite platform. Okay, so let me circle, let me come away from LinkedIn for a moment. Just pique my interest then because I think I talk to a lot of new coaches setting up their own businesses and a lot of their fear is, you know, around
Julie Luscombe (38:32.987)
There's way.
Julie Luscombe (38:43.419)
Thanks
Melissa Hague (38:51.746)
visibility and putting themselves out there and, you know, and that's quite terrifying. And like you say, I think it was for me, it was for you when we, think it is for everyone, isn't it? When they start, but you know, the more you do it, the more confidence you get that you sort of realize, you know, the world didn't end. you know, it's going to be all wrong. Exactly. Exactly. and so I guess what I'm curious about, Julie, because you've talked, you know, you're four, I think you said four and a half years in.
Julie Luscombe (38:58.543)
Yeah. Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (39:06.725)
Yeah, people will scroll on by if they're not interested.
Melissa Hague (39:21.208)
to the business. And I love the fact at the beginning that you said I went on coach training, you know, it's kind of my retirement plan. Because I totally hear that because I'm like, I do a lot of coach development, you know, people doing that kind of first I do ILM deliver ILM programs and that a lot of them are kind of in their kind of 40s some even you know, into 50 starting to think about what do I do when I retire from this job?
Julie Luscombe (39:29.54)
Yes.
Melissa Hague (39:49.038)
I hear that so much. I think I might become a coach. But you're, oh, I might do this in retirement. You were like, no, I think I found my thing. I'm doing it. And you are doing it. You're four and a half years in and have built a successful business, right? And a successful way of living for you. Not just the business, right? But a successful way of living for you. what does in at the stage that you're at now, what does
Julie Luscombe (40:10.127)
Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (40:19.374)
kind of stepping into your courage, leaning into your courage. What does that look like for you now at this stage in your business?
Julie Luscombe (40:24.964)
Yeah.
Now it's, that's really interesting because I've been reflecting on this recently, but now I think it's about increasing visibility, not about me and my business, but about the issue that I work with in terms of burnout, because you mentioned the word shame early on and shame loves solitude and loves to thrive by itself. Whereas I think I'm leaning into using my own stories more.
without oversharing, but just as examples of situations, of ways through, but also getting other people to talk about their story. So, and now I deliver training around burnout as well. And that most powerful aspects of it are always when people in the room start to recognize themselves on some of the infographics or pictures I might be sharing and open up.
Melissa Hague (41:19.915)
Mm.
Julie Luscombe (41:22.123)
not in massive, massively in depth ways, but just will start to acknowledge that actually this is what it's been like for me. And the ripple that that sends around the room of that domino effect that you get, well actually, yes, I recognize that, et cetera, et cetera. You can almost see a collective sigh of relief with people and the shoulders coming down when they realize they're not the only one. So I think it's two things. It's leaning into being open about my stuff that happened.
and when I was employed by others, but also it's opening that space for other people, safe spaces, as safe as you can make them. I don't think you can ever say anything's a safe space. We try our best to create that, to share their own stories as well. So I think it's about leaning into it is taking, I'm happy with the business side of it. I'm happy with how things are going. Now it's about how can I make this the most impactful space it can be in a one-to-one or training situation as I can.
Melissa Hague (42:03.758)
Absolutely.
Melissa Hague (42:21.09)
Yeah. So interesting, because isn't it as soon as we say as coaches, and we all do this, Julie, just as you just did, right? Sharing more of myself, but of course, in an appropriate way, right? Not, I don't, we all explain ourselves when we say that, right? Because we, think many, many coaches are carrying around and I know it's still a little voice for me. We're carrying around that rule.
Julie Luscombe (42:34.292)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (42:49.262)
And we have made it a rule, is that it's not about us, it's about them. Right. And so you're so right that ultimately, if we want to create connection and create safety, know, safe environment, as you say, where people feel connected to us as a human being, and therefore they feel safer, not completely safe maybe, but safer to share what's happened or is happening for them.
Julie Luscombe (42:51.129)
Yeah, it's not about us.
Julie Luscombe (43:12.731)
Hmm.
Melissa Hague (43:19.18)
you know, we have to show up as ourselves and therefore, yes, there will be elements of me too, or, you know, I get it, I've been there or whatever, right? Now, yes, I agree, we're not oversharing, right? Well, let me tell you, hang on a minute, stop talking about it, let me tell you all about my thing, but I think gonna really help you, you know, no, no, no. But absolutely, I think this thing about sharing,
Julie Luscombe (43:23.077)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (43:29.114)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (43:35.969)
One.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (43:47.244)
something of ourselves sharing our stories and giving that it's almost like that connection spark, you know, it creates that, that real firing of that connection. And it how we have to link it to self compassion as well, right? Because what you're talking about is that sense of common humanity. I'm not alone.
Julie Luscombe (43:56.314)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (44:08.079)
Yeah, humanity's the exact word there. It's about people pick me because they, Jersey is a smaller community, so it's different. So people do know who I am. They pick me because they connect with me, because they connect with what I'm writing. They connect with stuff I've said. They don't want someone, if someone wants somebody that's completely objective, they will find that person. They will find that person. But,
Melissa Hague (44:17.24)
Of
Melissa Hague (44:33.804)
Yeah, for sure.
Julie Luscombe (44:37.155)
the people that find me tell me they pick me because they think I get it. The situation and often some of that has to do with my nurse background because people make assumptions about nurses as well, you know, which is fine, which is fine. But it is, the humanity for me is the thing that has to be present in my sessions for it to spark joy in me as well as be beneficial for the client.
Melissa Hague (44:46.552)
Yes, course.
Melissa Hague (44:57.24)
Yes. Yes.
Yeah, yeah. And look, that's a super important point as well, because we often talk about, you know, connecting with our client and, and, you know, I talk about, you know, showing up courageously and as human and vulnerability, so that, know, so that our client can connect with us, we can create that connection. But we have to remember the connection is two way. So I have to connect with the client. And if I don't, I can't do my best work. If I'm not connected to them.
Julie Luscombe (45:24.397)
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (45:30.87)
as a fellow human being, then I can't do my best work. And so, and I would be doing them a disservice because I'm not showing up as my best self either when I'm not in that connection. So I think that whole messaging around it's not about us, it's about them creates this separation, creates almost kind of like for me, it's created this sort of minimizing of the role.
or the importance of me being in that room with that. Yeah, it minimizes me. And that's not helpful coaching, I don't think at all. Well, it's super interesting, Julie, because I think, know, you're where we started with this kind of, I love that sort of journey you've been on from, I want to help people to flourish and...
Julie Luscombe (46:03.097)
that human interaction. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Melissa Hague (46:23.244)
burnout, that doesn't feel very flourishy, you know. But now you're, you know, you've really reframed that and actually can see that the importance of being in that space, you know, and how now through to this idea of storytelling and really leaning into your story and sharing something of yourself, whatever that might look like with your clients is kind of moving forward is moving your your practice, how you're practicing as a coach forward.
Julie Luscombe (46:24.091)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (46:51.663)
Yeah, yeah.
Melissa Hague (46:54.274)
So Julie, I'm sort of wondering as we kind of bring the conversation to a close and many, coaches will be listening. I hope. I said that very confidently. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's hope many, are listening to this podcast. And so what, from your perspective, what's the one thing that you would like every person
Julie Luscombe (47:05.019)
We're just talking to ourselves, Melissa.
Melissa Hague (47:23.136)
every coach listening to know about courage.
Julie Luscombe (47:29.367)
I think the thing that sticks in my mind most is about courage looks different for everyone and at different stages of our lives. And sometimes it's about taking a massive leap when it's something you feel and know is right. But sometimes that courage is just in those small steps we take every day. So I think it's about taking courage at our own pace and doing what we expect of ourselves in terms of courage and not necessarily what others expect.
Melissa Hague (47:58.478)
Yeah, yeah, yes. What does courage look like for you? In your life in your business with your clients? What does it look like for you at this time? Yeah, in this moment? What does it look like? And yeah, I'm a big supporter of this courage or we're talking about ordinary everyday courage. This is not I mean, it can be the big stuff, the huge stuff, of course. Actually, it's those small everyday moments where we have that choice to make I can
Julie Luscombe (48:03.279)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (48:08.013)
at this time. Yeah.
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (48:18.009)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (48:27.45)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (48:27.916)
this moment, I can choose courage or I can choose comfort. What's my choice going to be? Yeah. Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I've loved this conversation. It's really interesting to see that sort of that journey that that process almost that you've or be an organic process, but that process that you've been through as you've kind of developed and I kind of
Julie Luscombe (48:31.002)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (48:37.859)
You're welcome. Me too.
Julie Luscombe (48:49.082)
Mm.
Melissa Hague (48:53.912)
The other thing I noticed as well is that when you were talking at the beginning, I was kind of thinking to myself, you almost found coaching by accident. I'm not sure that's quite the right term, but you know, that kind of like, this coaching, there's a coach, there's training, I could go and do that, I might do that in retirement. and I actually, think I could do this. It feels like it was a happy accident. What I love is how intentional you are now.
Julie Luscombe (49:05.999)
Yeah, no.
Julie Luscombe (49:12.154)
Yeah.
Yes.
Julie Luscombe (49:19.952)
Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (49:23.418)
Yeah.
Melissa Hague (49:23.734)
about what do I want this to be for me? What do want this to look like? Who do I want to help? How do I want to help them? There's a real intentionality in how you're going about, you know, doing the work that you love versus that sort of almost accidental happy act. How interesting, really interesting. So thank you so much for sharing your story up until this point.
Julie Luscombe (49:28.955)
Mm-hmm.
Julie Luscombe (49:38.957)
Yes, you're right. Yeah.
Julie Luscombe (49:47.023)
You're welcome, Melissa. I've really enjoyed the conversation, so thank you.
Melissa Hague (49:50.744)
Pleasure. Thank you so much, Julie. You take good care of yourself.
Julie Luscombe (49:53.775)
You too.