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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
If my wife isn't feeling connected with me, I would say as a younger husband, I would've been a little dismissive of that. Now I trust her perception of connection more than my own. Like I might think we're, we're really connected and doing well, but if she doesn't think that, then I. She's righted.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the Dad Tired podcast. So pumped that you're here with us today. If you're brand new, welcome. We're just a bunch of dudes who are trying to figure out what it looks like for us to find healing in our own life so that we can be the husbands, fathers, and men that God has called us to be.
Two ways that you can get involved. First off, we have a Dad's Tired retreat and in September, and I would love for you to be there. Um, we are filling up on spots for that. Make sure that you grab your spot by going to dad tire.com. And then click the retreat tab. It's an annual retreat. We do once a year by far, the most powerful thing that we do, bunch of like-minded guys.
Um, you can come alone, you can come with a group of guys, friends, church group. It doesn't matter. Um, I promise you, you will enjoy it. It will be massively impactful for you on your journey of becoming the man that God has called you to be. Secondly, so many of you have been really, really gracious in partnering with us.
To donate to the ministry. We are a nonprofit, so all of your donations are really what keep us going. And so I just wanna say thank you for those of you who, who have given so generously. Um, I've talked to many of you guys this week who have given and, um, I'm just so, so grateful. Many of you, um, personally, have dealt with your own stuff.
Like you got your own sin and mess of a life that you have looked straight in the eye and decided to have the courage to deal with. And you want more guys to find that healing. And so that's why you partner with us and donate to the ministry. Many of you guys are like, I want that courage, and I don't have it yet.
And I believe in what God is doing through Dad tired. We have thousands of guys who are part of this ministry, who are genuinely and humbly seeking. This kind of healing so they can be the men God's called them to be. So if you believe in that mission, if this podcast is helpful for you and you want to see it keep going, please help us by going to dads tire.com.
Partner with us there. You can make a donation. All again, all of that is tax deductible for you because we are a nonprofit. Uh, this is one of. The most fun conversations I've had in a very long time, Kyle, and I just hit it off right away. We started talking even before I hit record, and I had to hit record as quickly as I could because, um, we just immediately hit it off and started getting into good stuff.
So I'll jump outta the way and we'll dive straight into this interview with Kyle Iman, I was just talking to Kyle before we hit record and, um, I, I've been trying to tell our guests that are coming on, like just kind of where I've been at in my own healing journey to catch them up. To speed of where we've been at as a dad tire community, really around the focus of, um.
Strong families begin with healed men. And so just trying to kind of tee up our guests to speak to their own healing journey and how guys can find healing. And as I was sharing that with Kyle, he started to share some really insightful things that he's learned along the way. And I was like, dude, hold that thought.
Let me hit record and uh, and so we can have everybody here what you're about to say. 'cause it, it, I could already tell it was gonna be really good. So anyway, let's just jump right in. Dude, I, I told you that I've, I've been out for the last several months doing my own healing journey. I'm 38 years old and you.
You had asked me specifically, like, how old are you? And then you started to share this thought, so pick up where you left off there. Yeah, so I, I was, um, as you shared your story, I couldn't help but reflect on some of that season in my life. But, um, but a, a guy during that time for me, I. Um, talked to me about this principle called that he referred to as the, uh, plus or minus three of 40 principle.
And basically the ages of 37 to 43 are often a window where men who are seeking growth or men who are, you know, practicing, you know, spiritual growth. Uh. Uncover some new things. They, they learn some things about themselves that maybe were hard to see as younger men. They're able to accept some things about their growing up years that maybe were hard to accept.
Mm-hmm. You know, they're able to connect some dots. Oh, this is why I, you know, I'm operating, I think I'm operating out of anger and I'm operating out of sadness. And I, I, it's hard for me to admit that I'm sad or I've, you know, I think I'm operating out of, um. You know, I, I find out that I'm operating more outta fear than, than I thought I was.
But, but there's something about that window where we're able to recognize that a little bit more clearly. And of course, that's generic, 37, 43. Maybe it's, you know, outside of that window. But, but in his research, in his study, he just had identified, the more men he talked to, the more he recognized he would ask them, what I asked you, like, how old are you?
And he, he just began to see this rhythm or this pattern of God. Uh, revealing some new things to men in that window of their lives. I think it, I mean, hearing that it makes sense. Yeah. There's part of me that's just like. I don't know, maybe a little bit embarrassed. That's like, dude, at 38, I should have more of my stuff figured out, you know?
Yeah. And maybe when I'm 68, I'll be like, dude, you were so young at 38. You know, you're still such a baby. No. You know what you'll be thinking at 68 is, man, I'm embarrassed that I don't have more of my stuff figured out. That's true. That's so true. Yeah. I know. 68 year olds. Yeah. Who? Psych I, I felt that way at 38.
I feel that way at 49. You know, that, uh, that God, you know, continues to reveal you, new things to you and grows you in new ways here. Like, ah, I didn't, not, well, I'll tell you what it is for us right now. We, we have, uh, four kids and this is our, you know, this is our first year as an empty nest couple, right?
And, uh. Man, I'm learning all kinds of things about myself as a husband that I thought I had figured out that, uh, get revealed when, when you're, you enter into a new season, uh, uh, you know, for, for example, um. You know, it suddenly became easy to say yes to a lot of different things. 'cause my kids weren't at home.
And, and my wife in my mind was like, oh, of course. You know, she's not, she didn't care. And then, you know, you find out, man, I can quickly keep, I can quickly go back to finding my identity in some things that my kids. Kept me from because, uh, they were, they were at home and I, I was gonna, I was committed to them as a dad.
And, and now it's easy to say yes to things and you start finding your identity and those things in an unhealthy way. And you're like, ah, man, I, I thought, I, I thought I'd figured that out a long time ago. Um, like the work stuff or like. What do you mean? Yeah, yeah. Just work, I would call it production stuff.
Like, um, here's what I, here's what I'm accomplishing, here's what I'm getting done. And, uh, that often is work stuff. But, um, you know, the, the need to find my value in, in what I can point to and what I can produce, uh, rather than in connections, you know, uh, with, with God, with others, uh, is something I thought I had.
You know, figured out and understood. Mm-hmm. But, uh, you know, realizing that there are different seasons where that temptation or that tendency to, um, to find my identity and what I can accomplish, and, and, and, and even, you know, uh, feeling like that what earns God's favor. Some of those dangerous things that you think, oh, I know that, but then you find yourself.
In that pattern, um, unexpectedly So, um, yeah, I, I think one thing you just said there I thought was interesting is you said, finding identity and things that I'm producing or doing versus connections with God and with others. And I think one thing I'm learning in this moment of my life is that connections with people can be a barometer of health.
Yes. For sure. And like, I mean, well of course we would always say that about God, like how's my connection with the Lord? And for sure. Yeah. You know, but it's also connection with others and you. That's such an easy 'cause with the Lord. It can be kind of, sometimes it feels less tangible. Mm-hmm. But one tangible measurement could be, what do my relationships look like in my life?
Like, how healthy are the relationships in my life? And that could be a real clear indicator of where my health is at. And then the question becomes an Okay, I agree with that. How do you, how do you gauge those connections? Like how do you know be? Because one, one of the things that I've had to learn is that I'm not always the most accurate reader of the connections in my life.
So I tend to be, uh. Overly positive as a, as a personality, right? Mm-hmm. So I can look at different relationships, whether that's with my wife, kids or coworkers, friends. And I would, if you asked me, I'd say, oh man, that connection is good. We're we're solid. Everything is fine. And then if, but if you ask them.
They don't necessarily feel that way. And so one of, one of the things that I've, I, I totally agree with you, the connection as a barometer, as a metric for health is, uh, is a, is much more accurate than production. And here's what I can get done, but like, not necessarily always trusting my perception of connection that's of need to hear from others.
Like, Hey, I, if my, if my wife doesn't. If my wife isn't feeling connected with me, you know? Mm-hmm. Then in the, I, I would say as a younger husband, I would've, I would not, I would've been a little dismissive of that. Now, I trust her perception of connection more than my own, like I might think we're, we're really connected and doing well, but if she doesn't think that, then.
She's right. You know, like if only one of us thinks that, then that's not connection. Like we both have to think that way. Uh, that's interesting. But, but yeah, that connection and production. Um, connection. Well think about this spiritually, we tend to think that that production can lead to connection. That if I produce enough, that's what connects me to God.
Um, that somehow what earns connection, and I can carry that over in my relationship with my, with my wife as well. Mm-hmm. Like if I. She should feel connected to me because look at all the things I got done around the house or look at the way I'm providing, or whatever it may be. That connection leads to, or that production leads to connection.
But biblically it's connection that leads to production. You know, Jesus says, I'm the vine, you're the branches. If you remain in me and I remain in you, you'll bear much fruit. But apart from me, you can't do anything. So you stay connected to me and the production will come. But stay. Stay focused on the connection.
That's so good, man. That's really good. And just literally just yesterday, I. My wife was at work and so I cleaned the house. I bought her flowers 'cause she had a rough morning. Yeah. Cooked dinner, cook a nice dinner. She came home, you know, and I, I just was just checking off all the things in my head. Like, golly, she's gonna come home and just, yeah.
Yeah. And just didn't have the reaction that I expected, you know, her to have. And I'm just reminded of what you just said, like it doesn't equal, my production did not automatically equal connection. She still needed like me and time with me and a pursuit of her heart. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just, here's the, I'm reflecting in real time.
Here's the parallel for me where I, one of the, where I learned this or was reminded of this, is like if I go home and the grass needs mowed, I can mow the grass, feel like I produce something, point to my wife or point it out to my wife and say, look, I mow the grass. Or I can go for a walk with my wife and when at the end of the walk I haven't produced anything, nothing I can really point to.
Mm-hmm. But at least for her, not, not, I'm not saying everybody's wired this way, but at least for her, my, I connect with her on the walk, but my mowing the grass doesn't necessarily equate to connection. Right. Yeah. So I would prefer to say I'm gonna mow the grass that way. I am. I. And I would tell myself I'm doing that for connection, but, but she would rather me go for a walk with her.
You, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, but as a man, I'd rather go, I'd rather mow the grass and get it done and, uh, be, have something I can point to. That's true. I mean, I, I feel like that's true for all of our relationship. Like anything with our kids, with our wife, like you said, with God, anything for us as a man that just like give us, give us something.
We can, give us some boxes we can check off to know that we're accomplishing something. Yes. 'cause all those other things are harder to gauge. That's right. Yeah. I, you know, I went on, I can go on a walk with my wife and like, how do I know that we actually connected? Well, I can look at the grass and see that it's shorter and it's got some nice lines in it.
Exactly. Yes. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely feels better. Did you, uh, I was gonna ask you, did you, you were talking about that, I don't remember how he worded it. Like the th the rule of three years, what was it called? Three? Yeah, he called it, uh, plus or minus three of 40. Plus or minus.
So four, you know, three, three years before or after 40 is kinda the window he identified as a time of, of, uh, you know, transformative growth for, for men. Did you have that personally? Uh, yeah. Yeah, I did. Um, or yes, I, I for sure did. Um, we, we have, we have four kids and for me it came when our third child, uh.
What we were doing as parents just wasn't working. And, uh, you know, up until then, I kind of got in way with, um, uh, figuring things out. Like not necessarily needing to ask people for help. Mm-hmm. Uh, not having to be dependent on God in a way that was, um, you know, required humble brokenness. You know, I, I didn't need that, I just didn't recognize my need for it as mm-hmm.
Or it didn't. I mean, if you would've asked me, I would've said I did. But I did. You know, I didn't really, and so, um, and so what happened during that time is I learned, you know, I learned to ask for help from people and, and then I recognized, oh, I have a whole history of things that could have gone, uh, been a lot healthier in my life.
If I would've, if, if in the first couple years of marriage, if I would've. Ask for help, it would've, I wouldn't have taken me seven years of marriage to figure some things out. Yeah. But I didn't ask for help. Right. And, um, and, and I recognized that my, um, inability or my stubbornness or pride, uh. That kept me from asking, asking for help, uh, was not just, had, not just affected me, but it affected, you know, the people around me.
Um, and, and significantly, uh, as a pastor, you know, I was not practicing what I was expecting of others. You know, I, I was holding up this value of, um, hey, if you're struggling, if you're dealing with you, you know, let us pray for you and humble yourself and ask, you know, lean on the people around you. Uh, but I wasn't doing that now.
What I've learned since then is that that's a whole thing. Like there's a, um, who talks about this? John Townsend talks about this, that there are, you know, that the more, like the more you are a source person, the less likely you are to have a source person, meaning that the more, the more likely you are to be in a position where people come to you for help, the less likely you are.
To have someone that you go to for help. Yeah. Which is just an interesting paradox. But if, you know a lot of leaders, pastors, counselors, you know, the, it, it's true. Like you, you can be this for other people, but it, it often does, it often translates into this, uh, these feelings of, oh, because I'm this for others, I can't, I can't have, I can't be this, I, I can't go to somebody else for this in my life.
Mm-hmm. You know, that expectation. So, um. You know, I feel like during that time God kind of broke me of, um, my self-reliance and my, um, you know, refusal to, to ask for help. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. And I know it's always hard to talk about, especially if it involves our kids. I'm, I'm getting, my kids are starting to get in their teenage years, so you're just like really trying to protect their stories and not that's blast them out online, you know, but Yeah.
Yeah. That's, that's difficult. I, you know, and I was thinking through what you just said and like. You know, obviously I, I feel that personally as a guy who's got a, a microphone in front of his mouth. Right. Like, you know, I'm, I'm talking a lot in front of people. Sure. And yet I felt personally, like I did not have a lot of people that I could share honestly, with.
Um, thankfully that's changed significantly. I've got some friends and, and, uh, people who literally know everything about me, no secrets, which is just, it's a very freeing place to live. But even, um, you know, I, I was thinking like. Even if a guy doesn't have a microphone in his face, that still could apply to every dad.
Like, if your kids and your wife are looking to you, can you help us? Are you taking care of us? Are you keeping us safe? Are you providing for us? And like, where does that guy go? You know, like, or he can feel that he's got places where he can go, I'm sure. But he probably feels like I, my only job here is just to stay sane so that my, I'm keeping this family together, right?
So it can be really, really lonely. One of the things that, uh, I think this is true for a lot of men, right? But, um, while the Bible talks about in Galatians, you know, bear one another's burdens, one, one of the things that I was doing was I was thinking, okay, look, if you can help fix my challenge, if you can help fix my struggle or my problem, I'll, I'll share it with you.
I'll talk to you about it. But I'm not just gonna bear my burden with somebody like I, I, I wanted. Like that would've seemed like complaining to me. If I were to, if I were to call you and just say, man, I gotta tell you about some hard things I'm dealing with right now, or some struggles I'm having. Um, I, I would be like, why would I wanna put that on Jared?
Like, why would, why? If unless he can help me, unless he's got, you know. Mm-hmm. Unless he can give me a prescription to something that fix this issue. Mm-hmm. And, and what, one of the things that I've learned in, in the beauty of that scripture and Galatians bearing one another's burdens is that there's something that happens when we, we share a burden with somebody and they don't do anything to fix it.
They don't do anything to help like we are. You know that it makes us, we're, we're healthier. And you know, with your word healing it, you know, we think of confession as just confessing sin for healing, but confessing weakness, confessing struggle, confessing, you know, sadness, confessing, like. It, it is exposing some things to someone else that it, that that burden gets lighter.
It's, it's healing in ways that we, that don't necessarily make sense, but it's how God has wired us. Meaning it doesn't make sense in the fact that, that that person didn't do anything to help me. Right. They just listened or they just, you know, helped, you know, they just helped by listening, but, but they didn't tangibly do anything.
And, uh, and, and, and recognizing like, okay. I need to practice that. Just sharing hard things because it's not good. First of all, I don't, my wife shouldn't have to be the person that carries all that for me. Right. And, uh, that's not fair to her. And, um, that's not, that's not healthy. But, but I need to have some people that I, I share hard things with.
I. And, but I, for me, I had to get over the fact that, that's not complaining, that's not whining. 'cause I've got a thing about men who whine, you know? And, uh, but that's bearing a burden. And, uh, and when you do that for other men, then you'll, you'll find that they do, they allow you to do that for them. You know, they'll, they'll give you something that, that you can help carry.
But that was hard for me to learn. I think that goes back too to like maybe the metrics of healthy relationships. Do I have friendships where I'm just getting stuff off my chest, where I'm getting stuff out of the darkness and into the light where I can do that? And, and I think one way that it can maybe feel like you're not whiny is to literally just use those words like, dude, I just gotta get something off my chest.
Ah, that's good. Like, you don't need to, you don't need to fix it. You know, I'm not whining, I'm not, you know, I'm just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got stuff. I just need a, I need a place to vent for a second. Um, just to get it outta the darkness. Yeah. It always feels smaller than it does in my brain. Yeah, that's well said.
Yeah. That's so good. I, I, right before hopping on here with you, I have a weekly phone call with another pastor that I was on, and that's what we do. Like, we just say, Hey man, here's, here's two or three hard things. I'm, I'm navigating, and he'll tell me, here's two or three things, hard things. He's navigating.
That's it. That's all we do. Yeah. But there's, I mean, we would both say that that's been really important and, and by the way, in doing that. You know, I am not carrying those things with me around the office. Like, yeah. I, like, I can't, I'm not gonna share those things with people you know, that I work with.
'cause oftentimes it's not appropriate and it's not the right place, but, but they still pick up on it and so mm-hmm. You know, that they pick up on that weight that you're carrying. And so having a kind of a, a weekly, I'm just gonna unload this, you don't need to do anything with it. Mm-hmm. Uh, it, you know, that.
That helps me, not just with me, but it helps the way other people can receive me. Yeah. I, I, uh, I've seen so many guys the last few months, I'm in a lot of these meetings where guys are just confessing sin and sharing stuff and, and working on their own healing stuff. And I've seen so many guys literally just, they come into a meeting so burdened and then they start talking about it.
I even, I remember one guy vividly, like, just saying, just talking about this right now is helping me. Like nobody was saying anything back to him. Yeah. Nobody was giving him any advice. You're just like, just saying this out loud is so helpful. Yeah. Um, it really does help a ton. I, I feel like, um, I mean, the reason I wanted to have you on the, the book is, or on the podcast is 'cause of your new book, um, about taking every thought captive.
I feel like this is, we're kind of in those wa we're swimming in those waters right now. Like this is for sure. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you, give you an example of that is when I was talking about the, the pattern of my thinking that says I can't ask people for help. Yeah. Like that was some, that was a thought that had held me captive.
Oh, you can't ask for help. You can't ask for help. Where learning to take that thought captive meant that I needed to look at it. Ask and interrogate it. Like, okay, I'm gonna ask some questions. Where did that thought come from? You know, where am I picking up on? Instead of just saying, Hey, don't think about that.
Like taking the thought captive means doing some interrogation work and, and recognizing, oh, you know what? I grew up in a home and in a family that was a fix-it family for lots of people. And we were the, from the time I was a kid, like that's what we did. We were not the people who need rescued, we were the rescuers and, hmm.
You know that there's, there's plenty of good things that I grew up learning around that, but one of the dangerous things was, um, I can't ask for help. On the other hand, my wife who grew up in a home that, um. That were, there were a lot of, uh, uh, struggles and challenges learned from an early age. Oh, you gotta ask people for help.
Like you, you can't do this on your own. So we, when we faced a challenge, her pattern of thinking was, we need to get some help. My pattern of thinking was, we can't ask people for help. We, I'm the one who supposed to know how to fix this, right? And, um, and, and so taking the thought captive required me to identify.
That, that thinking was a, a neural pathway. Anytime I had a, a problem or challenge or struggle, I would send it down the neural pathway of I can't ask for help. You know, and the only way that was gonna change is if I, you know, the, the term of, uh, I talk about in the book is the cognitive appraisal where you, you, it's the practice of identifying this thought that's been ingrained and, uh, and then.
Uh, re redirecting it, you know, breaking it and, and giving yourself a new way to think about things. But that doesn't happen intentionally. And what a lot of us do is we, we try to change our behaviors around something without understanding. So for me, on, I can't ask for help. I might try to ask somebody for help and I might do it once or twice or whatever, and I might force myself into some behavioral change.
But until I identify the thought pattern, I. That it, it doesn't last, you know, we, it might for a few months or until that certain, you know, uh, crisis is over, but, but it's not lasting change until it, until we change the pattern of our thinking. I just, I literally just met with a guy this within the last week who was telling me he feels like he's a slave to his thoughts.
Like, he just, he's just enslaved to it. He's just constantly talking about those like neural pathways. Like I've been thinking this way since I was a little boy, and I just, he feels enslaved to him. Like, I can't not think about them. Um, you know, and I, I think a lot of guys feel that with whatever areas they're struggling with, which is why I wanted to have you on to talk about this.
Um, but there's some ways, like I was thinking about. When you're in those thought patterns. Um, and, and like you said, I always just picture a path with like, um, like, like when you're a kid, the, the path isn't there. It's just a wild jungle. But one time you took a machete and you started to clear a little bit.
Yeah. And then all of a sudden you, you, that helped. And so you did it again, and then you did it again. That's good. And now you're 30, 40 years old. And that path baby is just smooth. I mean, it's been, it's been sealed and resealed and I mean, you could run down that path without even think about it. It's so clear and it's hard, like you're saying, to move off of that pathway that your brain loves to travel down.
Yeah. But, but I think what you're, one thing you, you just kind of casually said, but I'd love for you to camp there for a second, is you used the word investigate. I've used the word before, like get curious about it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think as Christians we feel like, oh shoot, I had this thought. I'm just gonna shove it down or quickly not think about it as fast as I can.
And I was actually telling this guy at coffee like, instead of trying to shove those thoughts off, right, get curious about it, like inve, like you just said, investigate it. Why is that coming up for you? And, and stop yourself on the path. But can you like camp there a little bit longer? 'cause that's a, I think for a lot of guys are gonna be like, oh dang, I'm supposed to like, actually not just try to shove it under the bed real quick that that's not what taking the thought captive means.
Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's really good. And I, I like your idea of get curious about it because you know you're not entertaining it. Mm-hmm. You're, you're just trying to understand it. You're Yeah. You know that. And, um, and, and so. Like, for example, like let's say you have, um, you're, you feel caught up in this pattern of, of lustful thinking.
Mm-hmm. And you, you're trying to stop that. So you, you tell yourself, ah, you know, don't think that, don't think about that. Don't think about that. Don't think about that. And, and, you know, research would say that's a little bit like, uh, people who go on a diet and they gain weight because now they're constantly thinking about.
Food that they're not supposed to, like, don't think about this food. Right. They're, yeah, they're more aware of, their mind is more in tune with it than, than it was before. But, but recognizing like, okay, where did that, where did that thought originate? Like, and, and maybe, maybe an example of this would be, you know, in the morning when you woke up, you.
Your, your first thought of the day was, I don't know, in Instagram or maybe you're watching, you get on ESPN and you're checking the scores of the game and there's advertisements. The first thought of the day that gets planted in your mind is, is is, uh, some kind of a lustful image That seemed pretty, I actually seemed pretty innocent in the moment.
Mm-hmm. Like, you didn't really think much of it, but what if your first thought of the day. Was, um, was a, a prayer or what if it was a scripture? Like one, one of the things that I found fascinating in my book as I researched it is that what you think about in the morning has more power than what you think about in the afternoon.
Meaning that if I spend 10 or 15 minutes thinking about something in the morning. It, it can, it can set the trajectory for my thoughts during the rest of the day. Whereas if I save, you know, let's take an hour and a half in the evening, it may not have the same power as the 15 minutes in the morning because our brain is more receptive to some things early in the morning, which, you know, biblically there's a lot of emphasis on the morning time and so and so, and, and, and so as you interrogate it, you think, okay.
What, what have my thoughts been today? You know, what have I exposed my mind to today that seemed, you know, irrelevant or you didn't make the connection, but, but what if you took that out of your, you know, diet? What if, what if you're not looking at that to start your day? What if you're not just, you know, driving to work and just listening to me?
You know, what if I like, what would it be different about this moment if you had listened to like. This podcast earlier in the day instead of listening to it right now. Like, does that make sense? Like trying to identify what am I exposing myself to that affects my thoughts, when am I exposing myself to it?
And, and then what would happen if I changed that my, my son, uh, is trying to tell me, get in shape and. And one of the things that he had me do is, uh, you know, just write down my, everything I ate during, you know, the day. And, uh, and one of the things that came out of that exercise for me is if, is if you would've asked me the next day, what did you eat?
There would've been a lot of things. I, I didn't, wouldn't have made the list, but because I had to do it in real time, suddenly I'm counting things that I didn't, I wouldn't, I didn't even remember the. The next day, but in real time, you know, I remember whatever the, you know, the sour patch watermelons or whatever it's, and, uh, and, and so the kind of intentionally taking my thoughts captive and then trying to connect those, those dots to Okay, how, how my exposure here affects my, um, you know, being, feeling enslaved to my thoughts at nighttime.
Mm-hmm. Um. Has more connection than you think it has. Like, I'm sorry to ramble a bit, but let give give you one other example of this. No, it's good. Yeah, it's good. Like let's say that you, let's say you identify that your thoughts, your less full thoughts, you're most vulnerable to them at night. You know, right before we go to bed.
Identifying. Okay, why is that? Why, why was it not really an issue for you in the morning or in the afternoon? Why is it at night that that is, that that pattern of thinking is holding you captive? Um, and, and then preparing for, you know. When the, when the, as the Bible talks about taking every thought captive, it's battle language, you know, recognizing, okay, the battle is being fought at this time of the day and at this place.
So how am I preparing for that battle before I find myself in it? Mm-hmm. And, um. And, and, and then recognizing how my thinking leading up to that time, um, is gonna determine some victory or defeat there. In, in other words, if you wait till you feel enslaved to it to deal with it, eh, I mean, that's a tough one.
But if, if you are, if you're being intentional to take your thoughts captive, leading up to it, and if you have interrogated the thoughts enough to recognize. Or have gotten curious enough to recognize, oh, this is when, and this is why, and this is how. So here's, here's how I'd need to, uh, uh, be prepared. I wanna thank my friends over at the Dwell Bible app for sponsoring today's episode.
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I had learned this trick in when I was in intensive therapy, and it's gonna seem so simple, it's gonna feel cheesy, and so I apologize in advance for all the listeners who are like, really, Jared, this is your best. This is the best you got. But when you, when I start to go down a thought pattern, essentially what they talk about is you are, you're kind of moving into what they call mammalian brain thinking.
You're no longer thinking in frontal lobe. Not logically, how is this thought? How if I progress on these thoughts and these actions, how is this going to affect my life? I've moved out of that logical thinking. I've gone into my mammalian brain, which is just straight instinct. I have, I'm on the path that's been cleared a million times, and so one way there, there are lots of ways that you can try to break yourself out of that mammalian thinking once you recognize you're in it and get yourself back what they say online, like mm-hmm.
Get yourself, you. You've shut off, you've clicked out. Your frontal brain has been turned off. Let's turn it back on so that you can get back into logical thinking. Um, and for us it might be more, you know, this wasn't necessarily a biblical stuff, so you could think like, how do I get back to more biblical thinking, thinking as a disciple, as a follower of Jesus?
So one way, this, again, I apologize in advance for how silly and simple this sounds, but, uh, you can just start to name five things that you see around you. Uh, and I've actually used this, not heard this many times, okay? Um, in the last five months where my brain will want to go down a track. That it is so familiar going down.
It's, you know, lust, anger, whatever it is, whatever track it's, I'm used to running down. Um, and I can tell like immediately like, oh, I've stepped onto this, this path, I've been here before. And immediately I'll, I, I'm gonna be honest, I literally did this this morning. Uh, I will literally just start looking around the room and I'll be like, fan blinds sheets, you know, and I'll just start like naming stuff.
And what it's doing is all you're trying to do is disrupt yourself. From, like, another way of thinking about it is like a water slide. Like you've gone down the water, like you're, you're at full momentum and you're just, you're flying down one way and it's very hard to stop once you're like going down it.
But one way to stop it is just to like, okay, quickly recognize what's around you and what's, and you can do it with like, what do I smell? They have a whole thing like. Five things you see four things, you feel three things. You smell like all this thing, but all of those are tactics to try to get your brain out of.
I love that. Okay. That mammalian thinking. And then once you're out of it, now you can stop and actually be curious. 'cause it's really hard to get curious, like you were saying. Right. You know, at 11 o'clock at night when I've got the device in front of me or whatever the thing, you know, you're on the path.
Yeah. Yeah. Well part of my research for this, you know, was identifying this, um, kind of the window you have, if you think about, you know, taking something captive that you've got, you've got a small window in which you decide if you're gonna do that or not. Like you're, you've got, you know, you've got five or 10 seconds from the time of.
Thought enters your mind to decide what, what you're gonna do with that thought are, are you going to, you know, are you going to get curious about it? Figure it out? Are, are you gonna entertain, attain it? If you're, if let's say it's anger and you feel an offense by to somebody you, you've got, you've got five or 10 seconds to decide.
Mm-hmm. Okay. Is this going to. Am I gonna find some humor in this? Am I going to find the most generous explanation for what this person, or am I going to, uh, just go down the water slide? And, uh, and, and I think that's, you know, and, and so I love your tool because it helps you know what to do in those first five or 10 seconds.
Like if you Yeah, if you recognize, oh, I'm on the slide, and, and you're, you need to, to, um, uh, recenter your, your thinking. You, you know, that's. I mean, that's hard to do, but the, the more quickly you can recognize that and then break it, uh, the more success you'll have. What else did you find when you were researching and writing this book?
'cause I mean, this has been a, a verse that I, I mean, it's essentially right? We, we've heard this verse so many times. If you grew up in the Christian faith. Yeah. And it really, I grew up just thinking like, take the cop the thought captive. Don't let yourself keep thinking about, stop thinking about it. Yeah.
I mean, that's almost as far as I went. You know, like, what else? When you were researching and writing, did you find like, what are some tools or what's ways of thinking about it that we probably aren't thinking about it in the Christian faith? You know, I think, uh, one of the mistakes that we've made in this verse and in this practice, um, as followers of Jesus would be over, uh, estimating our role in this.
So like if you look at that, that verse, you know, um. That we are to be transformed and, and the way we're transformed is through the renewing of our minds. But, but that's still a Holy Spirit, uh, work. Now, our role in that is to take our thoughts captive and, uh, to let our minds be renewed, but recognizing.
Um, that the Holy Spirit is the one who, who brings about that transformation. And so I think the, you know, the spiritual practice of this is really important, that it's not like a lot of us have read books or, or maybe listened to podcasts, that, that would talk about how you, you change your thinking, change your life, right?
But, but the, but the message of the scripture is change your thinking. Jesus changes your life. You, you know, it's not, we are not our own, um, redeemers or sanctifier. Yeah. And so I, I think recognizing that as we do this, the, there's a supernatural, um, promise that takes place that, that. That God, uh, has, well, he does this work in us.
He's also made our brains to work this way. You know, that he, in fact, it's interesting to read about how, you know, for so long the, our thinking seem to be, uh, fixed from childhood. And now we understand that, you know, our brains, uh, our thinking literally changes. Our brains physically. Um, you know, that God has made us to be able to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.
But one of the things that I, uh, practices I learned in this book that was really helpful to me that I kind of stumbled onto was, um. I write, I write about it in a chapter called Say It Out Loud. And, uh, that, that when you, when you speak certain things out loud, it, you're, there's, it activates different parts of your brain.
There's different parts of your brain that receives your spoken out loud thoughts that if you just thought those same things in your mind. So there's, there's, there's, um, there's power in saying what you're thinking out loud and it can work for you or against you. Um. Now what this can sometimes, how this can sometimes be, I don't wanna say misused, but um, is, you know, like positive affirmations, right?
Mm-hmm. Like, oh, I'm just gonna say these things that may or may not be true, but they're positive. And by saying 'em out loud, I am manifesting things and, you know, whatever. Right? But, and, and because we're aware of some of those kinds of, um. Uh, ideas. We might be tempted to underestimate the significance of something, saying something out loud, but I would challenge guys with this idea of, of what would, what about saying things out loud that God says are true.
Like if, if you're, if you are speaking, so the way that I apply this is. If I'm speaking scripture out loud. Mm-hmm. I think there's something that has power in doing that, that if I just read the Bible on my own, not to say that that's not powerful, but if I just sit on my front porch and just read it in my own head, it's not the same as speaking that, that word out loud.
And so, mm-hmm. You know, if you memorize some scriptures that are relevant to thoughts you're trying to take captive, um. And you speak those out loud. I, I imagine it's, this connects to the illustration you've shared right? By looking around and saying things. But when you, you speak that scripture out loud.
It, it breaks that, like it, um, it breaks that stronghold. And so, so I would, one of the things I would challenge guys with is to kind of put together two things I've talked about here, speaking some things out loud and doing it in the morning. Uh, you know, just kind of a simple idea. But if you, if you identify some scriptures that are connected to thoughts that you're trying to, um, take thought, take captive, and you speak those out loud in the morning, you look in the mirror, you speak 'em, you say 'em.
You know, when you're in the shower, when you're driving into work, you speak, speak 'em out loud and, and just try it. And some people would be resistant to that because they'd be like, oh, that just sounds too whatever. Easy. I'm like, okay, well then if it's easy, then just try it. Because I, I do think there is something, uh, built in, and by the way, I should also say that this is reflected in scripture.
You know, um, there is an emphasis in the Old Testament that God gives his people to. Speak things out loud in the morning, like that is a thing. And, um, and so, you know, to, to put that into practice as a, as a, as a tool, uh, I think is a great place to start. And you were saying that the, um, that it's different parts of, like, it hits different parts of your brain, click.
Yeah. So, yes, I, so there's a. There's a study that talks, that shows how, like, um, when you say something out loud, it engages, I have it somewhere in my book, A part of your brain that doesn't get engaged when you're just thinking that thought to yourself so that there's this, uh, there's more, you know, it has more impact when you, and uh, when you say it out loud.
And that's just true. Meaning that like, you know. If you can say things that aren't true out loud and it'll still have that kind of impact, but, right. Um, but speaking God's truth out loud, I think there's, um, extra power in that. Yeah. There's a, I love by the way, when like science and research is just, you know, backing up all the things that we're learning in scripture.
You know, like all the things that, all these principles that, that scripture is teaching us and science is kind of putting research behind it, but there is two, uh. Forgive me guys for like going into all this therapy. Jargon that I learned, you know, but like, one of the things that, that you can do is like you, they have, you tap both sides of your shoulders, you know, like in, in rhythm.
Uh, and what you're doing is you're actually trying to manipulate your thinking to, I'm probably explaining this wrong, for all the therapists that are listening right now, but, uh, but you're essentially trying to reengage your right lane, right, right brain, left brain. Yeah. You're trying to get both, uh, going at the same time.
And, and, uh, I'm sure I butchered that. I apologize for, again, for all my therapists. Listeners. Um, but it kind of sounds like the same thing, like when you're speaking out loud, you're getting it, it is probably moving from one side of your brain to another side of your brain and it's like Yeah. Reengaging your full brain, which is really, really fascinating stuff.
I, I have, um, I put recently on the back of my closet door, um, scriptures, like mm-hmm. Just identity scriptures. 'cause I know that in my brain I can start to go down some wrong thinking when it comes to my identity. Um, and then just identity statements that are based on God's truth and not my own thinking, you know, performance driven stuff and things like that.
Like here's who I am. I'm a son of God in scriptures, that kind of back these things up and, and I've been trying to, I don't do do it as often as I should, but to go into my, I've. I had my, my pastor, who, these guys, our listeners know Caleb, um, he encouraged me to like, make an actual prayer closet, you know, not just metaphorically speaking, but like, so I've turned my closet into like an actual prayer closet.
So I'll go in there and I'll just try to, as much as I remember, to, um, say those things out loud. 'cause I, I don't, I didn't do any of the research that you did for your book, but I have found that to be helpful to get it outta my brain again. And to say it out loud. Yeah, I popped up while you were, uh, talking through that.
I, I, I popped up the, the, uh, the science behind this and, and so when you say it out loud, it, it, uh, the left frontal lobe, uh, is activated, but here's what the, also your auditory cortex, you know, which processes. Um, sound when you hear spoken words, but what's fascinating about it is it, it recognizes the sound of your voice differently than the voice of others.
So your auditor cortex is more engaged when it hears your hears. Your. Own voice speaking as opposed to the voices of others. Interesting. And, uh, so yeah, so there's science behind it and I I love that, you know, I love having a place where you go, I think like your idea of a, a prayer closet, not just a well said, like not just a metaphorical one, which is what most of us think of when we think of a prayer closet.
But having a set space where, you know, you, you think, and you, you, that is a place where your thinking is. Is gonna be super intentional. Mm-hmm. When you are there, what you think about, how you think, what you're giving your mind to. And I just think for, uh, for a lot of us, we, we can go through days, weeks, and, and we don't have anything like that.
Like we, we, anytime we have a dead moment, you know, or maybe scrolling or we're whatever, entertaining ourselves, like we don't, the. Time that we give thoughtfulness has become, you know, pretty rare. And so if we wanna grow in that, a, a great way to do it is exactly what you said. I, for me, it's my front porch.
But if you have a space that's a bit sacred where you just say, okay, when, when I am here I am, uh, my, I'm gonna be really intentional to think about my thoughts and to, um, you know, to to practice, um, you know, practice. Um, some of this intentional thinking. I have a 13-year-old son, and I'm trying to, it's very clunky, but I'm trying to do some kind of an informal, uh, or formal, um, rite of passage stuff with him.
Okay. You know? Yeah. And, uh, one of the things that I'm, I'm planning to teach him as he moves deeper into the teen years is just to be able to sit in silence. I think it'll be like one of the That's so good. The sacred things that was so common a hundred years ago. That'll be lost. Um, 50 years from now, like the ability for our generation, our humanity to just sit in silence and be contemplative, you know?
Yes. It's like, yeah. It'll be so rare and sacred. Yeah. You know? Yeah. So, I, I really want to teach, I want to do that for myself. I want my, my kids to learn how to do that. Like, when do we ever just sit in silence? You know? And just think, no doubt. Yeah. Oh yeah. I read this article. Uh, yeah. This isn't in the book.
I just read an article called The Rise of the Toilet Texters, and it talks about, uh, that the, the growing trend of people who just will not use the restroom without their phone. Right. Yeah. Like they, they're not, they don't even, like, if they need to use the restroom and they don't have their phone on them, they'll look for their phone.
Yep. And, and. Wait to go to the restroom until they can find their phone. So when they're using the restroom, they'll have something to do. Right? Yeah. So it's crazy. Like our, our tendency to, uh, you know, to not have any space to, to think, uh, yeah. Is, yeah, that's, it's control. Use the restroom quietly. You guys just, you know, I actually have a, a new boundary, a new rule in my life where I do not have any screen time and private, um, I've just put that on myself.
Wow. I like that. Yeah. And so the bathroom is one, like I won't have interesting, you know, I won't be alone with my phone. So, uh, there have been times where I've walked into the bathroom to do the thing and I'll, and I'll forget that I have my phone on me. So I'll literally, I'll just open the door and chuck my phone out.
So my kids are just like, what is happening? Dad's going in the bathroom and a phone's flying out. So what's, what, what's inter, I like that a lot. What's interesting to me about that is though the challenge then becomes. You don't want to be on your screen much when you're around other people because then you're on your screen in front of being present with people.
So, you know, have you figured out how to have that balance or has it helped you just not be on your screen much? Um, yeah, I mean, I definitely don't, there's no kind of mindless scrolling in our family. That's a new thing. Like for our kids and any, like, we just, there's no mindless scrolling. So there's times like I'm in my office right now and if I need to get work done, I'll come up here and everyone knows like.
Daddy's getting work. This, this is my office space is actually my bedroom. So anybody could walk in here at any time. But like there's just no mind, there's no private places where anyone in this house can mindlessly scroll. That's good. Anything? So here, and we don't have social media, we don't have news anymore.
Okay. It's just like. Yeah. Yeah. We're not doing it. Yeah. So one of the things I, I've been using as a tool or boundary for me is this app called, uh, clear Space. Mm. And, uh, I really would recommend it. It's it, you put it in front of you and it tracks, you know, so it has this thing where, you know, the camera shows you in it and.
Then it tracks your pushups and squats. And for every pushup or squat you do, it gives you one minute of screen time. Oh, wow. And, uh, and so it's, and it's so helpful because, you know, on one hand you think, well, 10 pushups isn't that much, but, but 10 minutes isn't that much. Right. And if you want, if you, if, if you have to do 10 pushups in order to get 10 minutes, you know, it's, it's hard to do.
And, and so, uh. But it, it goes back to this idea that you shared earlier about, you know, breaking things like, it, it breaks your Yeah. Uh, it, it keeps you from able to being able to be mindless in going down the water slide. So it, you know, you have to stop and like, okay, if I wanted, if I want to, you know, watch this YouTube video, I'm gonna, I gotta, I gotta go do 50 pushups.
And, uh, how does it, how does it block your phone? Uh, so it, if you click on the app, like if I wanted to click on YouTube uhhuh, it takes me, it would, it wouldn't turn on, it would take me to the clear space. Oh, wow. And, uh, and then it would require me to do, you know, to do, and then there's other things you can do.
But for, I, for me, I, I identified pushups and squats, but it's, it's pretty strict about it. Like it watches you and it, like, I tried to trick it by doing, you know, not, not full pushups. That's when you do, that's when you know. Spot didn't, you're trying to fake the thing, putting up a YouTube video of you doing push or someone, someone else doing pushups.
So you can, I tried to fake my squats by just making the phone go up and down and it it, you're in a bad spot, Kyle. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're in a bad spot. You're in dark place. You're in a dark place, man. We'll pray for you after this. Oh, dude, that's really funny. Uh, well, I'm gonna get ClearWay. I gotta, I'm gonna reach out to them right after this and tell 'em you gotta sponsor this episode because doubt we way too big of an endorsement here.
Should. Well, man. Awesome. Thank you for coming on today. This has been a fun conversation. Every thought captive, calm, the mental chaos that keeps you stuck, drains your hope and holds you back. Discover the biblical neurological and emotional keys to transforming destructive patterns of thinking into a renewed mind.
One thought at a time. I love it. I'm real. I was really excited to have you on, and this conversation proved to be just as good as I had hoped it would and expected it to be, man. So thank you and congratulations. Today's the day it comes out. Thanks brother. Yeah, it was great. Uh, excited about it and it's great to visit with you.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate it, man.