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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Hi, we're Kathleen and Sonia and you're listening to Sisters in Sobriety. Thanks for being here. I'm [00:01:00] Sonia and I'm with my sister in sobriety, actually my sister in law, Kathleen, Kathleen, how are you doing today?
[00:01:06] Kathleen: I am doing great. The sun is shining. It's a happy day. We're talking about mindfulness today. How are you doing?
[00:01:16] Sonia: I'm doing good. Yeah. I love the weather and the spring. And,we hung out on the weekend and I could barely walk because I had gone to the gym and I had run for the first time since I was 29 Don't think I'm going to do it again. It was, I don't know what got into me.
[00:01:33] Sonia: I thought it was like a really good idea. And yeah, it took me like three days to be able to walk properly again. So today we're talking about mindfulness, which I know is a pretty broad topic, but it's one that Kathleen knows a lot about. I'm so excited that we are doing a deep dive into the concept of mindfulness and how it can add So much to the recovery journey. And in our fast paced world where [00:02:00] distractions are present all the time, mindfulness teaches us to slow down and reconnect with ourselves in the present moment.
[00:02:07] Sonia: It's about observing our thoughts, emotions and sensations without judgment, which can be a sign. Especially powerful for those working through recovery and mindfulness helps in recognizing triggers, managing stressors, and cultivating a sense of peace and stability, which are crucial for long term sobriety.
[00:02:27] Kathleen: today we're going to talk about what mindfulness really means, exploring its key principles and how it can dramatically alter our daily experiences. We're going to discuss how mindfulness can be seamlessly integrated into your recovery efforts to enhance emotional regulation, improve focus, and foster a deeper connection with your inner self.
[00:02:49] Sonia: All right, Kathleen. So can you start us off with a broad definition of what we typically refer to as mindfulness?
[00:02:58] Kathleen: I sure can. I [00:03:00] am a big, big fan of. a man named John Kabat Zinn and John Kabat Zinn most famously, brought mindfulness from the east to the west in the late seventies. and while mindfulness and meditation have been around for thousands and thousands of years, he started integrating it into like psychotherapeutic practices.
[00:03:25] Kathleen: So psychotherapy practices. And I remember actually growing up. On my father's bookshelf, he had the book full catastrophe living, which was really about mindfulness and stress management. So John Kabat Zinn has always had a really big influence on me and his definition of mindfulness is my favorite. So I'm going to use that one.
[00:03:44] Kathleen: And his definition is mindfulness is awareness that arises through paying attention on purpose in the present moment, non judgmentally, and then he goes on to say, And then he sometimes adds, in the [00:04:00] service of self understanding and wisdom, but I think we can really hold on to the definition that mindfulness is awareness that is in the present moment, on purpose, non judgmentally.
[00:04:10] Kathleen: What has mindfulness meant to you in your sobriety journey?
[00:04:14] Sonia: Yeah, so I'm one of those people, and I'm sure a lot of people listening, I, cringe a bit when people say mindfulness because I feel like I just don't get it. And I think I automatically think about meditating, which I really struggle with. And if we talked about mindfulness as just techniques for, grounding yourself, I have some of those, but I would love to learn more and to have a more concrete mindfulness practice.
[00:04:43] Sonia: And the idea that you've talked about before of letting thoughts come in and pass like waves is something I really, really want to learn. I think it would really help with my anxiety, which is also a huge trigger for my drinking. Can you [00:05:00] describe what mindfulness is in your words?
[00:05:02] Kathleen: Well, since I can't totally steal John Kabat Zinn's definition, I'm just going to say, for me, mindfulness is being fully present in the here and now. And that's it. Being fully present in the here and now.
[00:05:15] Kathleen: So Kathleen, can you tell us a little bit about when you brought mindfulness into your life?
[00:05:21] Kathleen: Yeah, I mean I think I think I was also like you really intimidated by this like meditation Or mindfulness and I didn't really fully Totally understand what it was. I was like, is it emptying my mind from thoughts? And it's not. Um, but I think that I started integrating a mindfulness practice into my life.
[00:05:48] Kathleen: through yoga first. It was like my gateway. So yoga, depending on what kind of yoga class you're taking can be really like a mindful movement. And I noticed that my mind really [00:06:00] quieted down when I was doing yoga. And that was really important for me because I had undiagnosed ADHD. I thought everyone's mind was as busy as mine, and as distracted and unfocused as mine, but it But, later I've learned that it's not, but yoga was one of the only places I could really still my thoughts, just kind of still and be in the moment and with my breath.
[00:06:23] Kathleen: And so from there, I started practicing more formal meditation techniques. And then when I stopped using drugs, and we've talked about this in past episodes, sort of like a An unintentional rehab that I went to and I went to Mexico and I did my yoga teacher training and I spent hours a day meditating.
[00:06:47] Kathleen: so I started really having a daily practice of meditation. From there. I also did some challenges like I would do. I did a year of meditation. So every single day for a year, I meditated [00:07:00] without a, like there was no, there were no days off. And then I really started looking into how mindfulness, really impacts anxiety, depression, any sort of mood disorder, ADHD.
[00:07:13] Kathleen: I really started doing some research around that. And. I found that meditation was really a barrier for people in terms ofthe seated practice of meditation was really a barrier. Um, because people didn't have the routine, the consistency, they were like, I'm not doing this right. It can be really uncomfortable.
[00:07:33] Kathleen: and so then I started integrating more of a mindfulness approach through my day. So meaning that, I have many mindful moments throughout my day, every day, whether that's drinking my tea, or brushing my teeth, and we're going to get into some of these things a bit later, but I started integrating many times throughout my day, just little by little.
[00:07:59] Sonia: [00:08:00] how does mindfulness physically and mentally affect someone who's recovering from addiction?
[00:08:06] Kathleen: Well, it has a pretty unique way of helping people who are recovering from addiction. So physically, it does lower stress levels, which reduces the body's release of cortisol. And this can regulate blood pressure and heart rate and really create a calming effect. So that's what you might think. Oh, people can be relaxed from my mindfulness.
[00:08:24] Kathleen: But mentally, mindfulness really helps people become more aware of their thoughts and feelings instead of Instantly reacting to cravings or emotional triggers. They can step back, they can observe and make more mindful choices. It's like mindfulness is like having your own personal coach that helps you stay grounded and present.
[00:08:46] Sonia: So in this context, when we talk about mindfulness, are you talking about meditation or are you talking about, okay,
[00:08:53] Kathleen: So meditation is like a form of mindfulness. It's a formal practice of mindfulness. So I do meditate every [00:09:00] day. I meditate for at least 10 minutes a day. Back when, before I had a child, I meditated for at least 20 minutes a day. Actually, your brother and I used to meditate a lot together.
[00:09:11] Sonia: I've heard my brother has a scar on his ankles from meditating so much.
[00:09:19] Kathleen: has, well, I don't know if he does anymore. So we don't know if he still does, but when I met him, he had two calluses on his ankles because he meditates kneeling on his knees and then his feet are crossed behind him and his, so his feet, he had would sit and meditation for so long that he had calluses on his ankles.
[00:09:42] Kathleen: And to be honest, we, we didn't meet through meditating, but our weekly date we, um, we would go to, basically a meditation in Toronto every week for the first, while in our relationship. So yeah.
[00:09:56] Sonia: That's fascinating. And his, this [00:10:00] is kind of weird, his first ex wife has, calluses on her ankles from meditating too.
[00:10:07] Kathleen: I do not have calluses on my ankles, but, but
[00:10:12] Kathleen: I meditate a lot.
[00:10:14] Sonia: Who meditates more?
[00:10:16] Sonia: Which wife meditates more? Yeah.
[00:10:18] Kathleen: I actually meditated for the first wife for a long time.
[00:10:23] Sonia: Oh yeah. You used to do kindness meditations.
[00:10:27] Kathleen: we're going to talk about that. Yeah.
[00:10:29] Sonia: that's so funny. I was just talking to someone who said that they do loving kindness meditations.
[00:10:33] Kathleen: Yeah.
[00:10:35] Sonia: how can mindfulness help people recognize and cope with triggers that lead to substance use? And that's a big one for me. So I would love to know the answer to that.
[00:10:46] Kathleen: So mindfulness is like a tool that helps people tune into their emotions and recognize what's going on internally. So when we're more aware of our emotional landscape, basically, we can [00:11:00] identify triggers before they escalate. And when you have substance use disorder or you are struggling with addiction, triggers will escalate into substance use, for example.
[00:11:12] Kathleen: So if someone feels anxious or lonely, mindfulness can help them acknowledge, okay, I am feeling anxious right now and, or I'm feeling lonely. And the key here is without judgment. So then they can use, then they can choose. So it almost gives this space of, oh, I'm feeling lonely or bored or anxious. And.
[00:11:36] Kathleen: Knowing, okay, that is the emotion, but there doesn't have to be the same action as a result of the emotion, so then you can choose what your action is. It basically, mindfulness sheds a light on those shadowy parts of ourselves, and it makes them less daunting and more manageable.
[00:11:56] Sonia: Okay. so the trigger still exists. You just have a different [00:12:00] response to it.
[00:12:02] Kathleen: So the triggers still exist, but maybe they don't hold as much power. and so we're able to look at them, the triggers, more neutrally. And we don't get necessarily pulled into the thought process around them. let's say the thought is, I'm lonely. So I feel lonely inside. I feel that emptiness.
[00:12:23] Kathleen: If you are not being mindful, it would be like lonely, trigger, and then instantly grab a drink to fill that emptiness. With mindfulness, you would say, Oh, I'm feeling something in my body, I'm feeling a sensation in my stomach, let's say, and then, oh, that's loneliness. Interesting, that's interesting, that I feel loneliness in the moment.
[00:12:47] Kathleen: I'm just gonna breathe into that, so there's no like, oh, I'm, I, no wonder I'm lonely, I'm like, I, I, no one likes me, or la la la, like, you're not going into the thoughts, you're just like, oh, that's interesting. I [00:13:00] feel lonely in this moment. You could, inquire a little bit about it. Hmm. I wonder what brought that on.
[00:13:06] Kathleen: Oh, I haven't actually talked to anyone today. Interesting. Okay. I'm just going to breathe into that and then you're going to choose. What are you going to do? Well, I'm not going to take a drink, so I'm going to go for a walk or call a friend. So it's giving you that choice.
[00:13:20] Sonia: I think that in a sense, I do practice mindfulness
[00:13:25] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:13:26] Sonia: it.
[00:13:27] Kathleen: For sure.
[00:13:28] Sonia: that is really interesting. So it's really about not judging the feelings that come up. That's a big one too, for me, like if I'm lonely, it's, it's a hard one to one admit and then a hard one not to judge. And it's like, well, you're lonely because blah, blah, blah.
[00:13:43] Kathleen: Yeah, it's it's not just the non judging. It's being aware of the emotion. So sometimes people won't even be aware of the emotion. They'll feel something in their body. And usually, if we get really curious about it, we'll feel it in our body first, but they'll feel something and the trigger could be [00:14:00] so quick that they just reached for the drink.
[00:14:02] Kathleen: So mindfulness is slowing that all down. Mm hmm.
[00:14:06] Sonia: That brings me to my next point, which is about mindfulness, helping to manage cravings and those, that impulse. And we know we've talked about impulsivity before, in individuals, like recovering from addiction.
[00:14:19] Kathleen: Yeah, and so mindfulness can help with those impulses. It's, it's basically you observe cravings as an impulses as temporary experiences rather than something that needs to be acted on immediately. And this is one. I've talked about the waves before. I'll talk about it now. But basically, if we look at.
[00:14:38] Kathleen: Look at cravings or urges like waves or or even like any negative emotion potentially. If we look at them at way as waves, we are, we want to anchor ourselves to weather the storm, knowing that the storm isn't going to last forever. The waves aren't going to last forever. Still water will come [00:15:00] again. So when we ground ourselves and we're aware, okay, I'm having a moment of of loneliness right now, or I'm really anxious right now and we get present with, with the moment now.
[00:15:14] Kathleen: So whether that's through our body or our senses, knowing what's right in the moment and breathing, those urges will pass. So the waves, that storm will pass and still water will come again. We just have to wait for it to pass. Unfortunately, We live in a society now where any moment of boredom, we just lift up our phones or we reach for something to just quell that uncomfortable feeling.
[00:15:41] Kathleen: But if we're able to sit with it just for a few moments, it could be like, I timed myself once I had really, um, I had some issues with binge eating for quite some time and I use mindfulness to really get through my binge eating disorder. And I remember. Timing my urges thinking that they were gonna [00:16:00] last for you know hours the last of five minutes five.
[00:16:04] Sonia: Yeah, I know. I, it feels like it's going to be forever.
[00:16:07] Kathleen: Mm hmm
[00:16:08] Sonia: but it's true. I always tell people like most. Cravings last about 20 minutes max,
[00:16:14] Kathleen: hmm. Oh for sure 20 minutes max 100 percent I think
[00:16:18] Sonia: Are there any particular stages of recovery where mindfulness is especially beneficial? Because I know for me, early sobriety was like, very typical, like white knuckling, and I don't think there's a ton of mindfulness in white knuckling sobriety.
[00:16:38] Kathleen: No, there isn't. that's resistance, right? So mindfulness is really not about resistance. It's there's like a feeling of acceptance, um, of letting the waves pass through. Right? but mindfulness is really beneficial at all stages of the recovery, but I actually think it's especially helpful during the early stages with, When cravings and withdrawal symptoms can be really intense.[00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Kathleen: So during that time, it really helps for people to stay focused on the present moment and reduce the impact of stressful thoughts about the past or future. I think when you think about it, this is a major oversimplification, but when we think about, when we were worrying about the future, that's anxiety.
[00:17:18] Kathleen: And when we're stuck in the past, that's anxiety. that's very much an oversimplification, but, but I'm trying to use that point that when we're in the moment, that's all we have. And so there isn't anything to worry about when we're in the present moment. And there isn't anything to be sad about if we're in the present moment.
[00:17:33] Kathleen: So I think that. As recovery progresses, mindfulness can continue to be useful in dealing with ongoing challenges and, managing emotional balance, emotional reactivity. It's kind of like a Swiss army knife that adapts to different phases of recovery.
[00:17:50] Sonia: Yeah, I can for sure see that.
[00:17:51] Sonia: I think that's one of the hardest concepts for me was when you just said, there's nothing to be upset about if you're in the present moment. That [00:18:00] is a really hard thing for me I think if I could learn that, that would be a huge development for me in
[00:18:07] Kathleen: I think it's more than there's nothing to be upset about in the present moment. It's just allowing. So, it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to have your experience. It doesn't mean that you're not allowed to have your feeling. But you just allow it to be. And you don't get sucked into the narrative around it.
[00:18:25] Kathleen: So, you can be in the present moment and have a stomach ache, right? Like, that doesn't make the stomach ache go away, but you can breathe into it, you can be curious about it, and sort of accept it. You're not resigned to it, you're not like, oh well, my life is shit because I have a stomach ache. You're just like, oh, I feel sensation in my stomach.
[00:18:49] Kathleen: You're just right in the moment
[00:18:50] Sonia: okay, I think this definitely leads me to a question about, anxiety and depression, and I have both. And how does
[00:18:58] Kathleen: Mm hmm.
[00:18:59] Sonia: [00:19:00] impact the emotional and psychological aspects of recovery?
[00:19:05] Kathleen: Well, mindfulness has been shown, by lots and lots of research to reduce symptoms of anxiety and depression, which are often co occurring issues with addiction. by focusing on the present moment, mindfulness helps people detach from their nugget of thought patterns and self critical thinking.
[00:19:26] Kathleen: So those are both really common in anxiety and depression. It's like giving your brain. A break from constant loop of worrying or negative self talk. And this can improve your emotional wellbeing, and really help on your mental health journey during recovery.
[00:19:43] Sonia: Yeah, and so my next question is something I always ask about, which is integrating different approaches. And so can mindfulness be integrated with other forms of therapy and treatment? And what does that look like in practice?
[00:19:58] Kathleen: So [00:20:00] absolutely, sometimes mindfulness is a key component of certain forms of therapy. So for example, I practice a lot of acceptance and commitment therapy with clients and that mindfulness is a key component of that therapy itself. Also dialectical behavior therapy, which has been used for many, many different things was originally created for borderline personality disorder, but that's, that's.
[00:20:24] Kathleen: there's mindfulness is a significant component of that. There's also a mindfulness based cognitive behavior therapy. So that is using mindfulness techniques with CBT and it can look like in practice, it can look like into incorporating mindfulness exercises in therapy sessions or daily routines. Um, for example, I often will start.
[00:20:47] Kathleen: therapy sessions with a mindful breathing exercise, or I'll use mindfulness techniques to help my clients stay grounded while they're talking about difficult topics. I also use [00:21:00] mindfulness when I'm working with couples. Because it You know, reactivity when we're in relationship and we're reacting, we're having emotional responses.
[00:21:09] Kathleen: We need to really have a baseline of mindfulness, and, and it's, I call it relational mindfulness when we're in relationship to be able to manage our reactions to other people. I think it really enhances other, other treatments by really promoting self awareness and emotional regulation.
[00:21:29] Sonia: So it's interesting. I think so. What I And I think you've seen me do it. It's like I pause a lot before I react, sometimes too long, you know, sometimes it's like one minute, sometimes it's a whole day. but is that a type of mindfulness? is that me being mindful? Is creating space between The feeling and the reaction.
[00:21:50] Kathleen: When you pause what's happening in your mind, like, what are you doing?
[00:21:54] Sonia: when I pause, I am like actively trying to ground myself. Like I think, okay, let's, [00:22:00] who are you? Who are you? I really like things like, what are your values? what are things that are important to you? Why are you reacting this way? and typically I pause when I'm having a reaction that I don't, that I think will have consequences that I don't want.
[00:22:15] Sonia: And I'll pause and say like, why am I doing that?
[00:22:19] Kathleen: That is mindfulness. I would say, I would say that to make it even deeper, it's like the, it's the pause and saying, what's happening in me right now.
[00:22:31] Kathleen: So, it's like, oh, I'm feeling anxious. I'm feeling, so there's that, that extra step there to be, is to be okay in the present moment.
[00:22:43] Kathleen: So, you're basically looking at, okay, what's happening with my body right now am I being triggered? Yes. What's my emotion? And then, then what you're doing is you're getting curious about it. Okay, why is this coming up right now? And then your [00:23:00] response is, okay, what is my response that's aligned with my values?
[00:23:04] Kathleen: So I'm making it a bit more complicated than it needs to be. I think you're almost there. It's really though, what are you doing in the present moment?Oh, I'm feeling anxious. And I, we had a previous episode recently. We talked about drama, right? Like protecting your peace. And I remember when I was recently at your, your house and I said to you.
[00:23:27] Kathleen: Tune in with what does your body feel like? What is your body feeling in this moment? So knowing you can, get signals about like, am I going to be reacting here? am I having a trigger? And usually it comes in the body first. And you had said to me, Oh yeah, like I feel anxious in my body right away.
[00:23:46] Kathleen: Like I feel it here. And, and so that's being in the present moment.
[00:23:51] Sonia: Okay. I think that, that's still, it comes back to this present moment, idea for me that I need to work on. How did you start to integrate [00:24:00] mindfulness with sobriety support?
[00:24:02] Kathleen: Well, I, I basically integrate mindfulness with all support. So I personally felt the impact of mindfulness in a life like in my life. It was basically transformative. I, I don't know if I could have managed. for so many years with ADHD without a mindfulness practice So I didn't know I had ADHD and the only way I felt like I could move through the world was having these practices I just didn't know that that was really helping me.
[00:24:33] Kathleen: I also participated in mindfulness based cognitive therapy group A couple of years ago for anxiety and depression. And then I went back to school to become a therapist. And I really dug into the research on the positive impact. So I really, I participated in a mindfulness based cognitive therapy group for anxiety and depression, and then I went back to school to become a therapist, and I really dug into the research [00:25:00] on the positive impact that mindfulness can have in a person's life.
[00:25:04] Kathleen: so I came to use mindfulness with sobriety support because of personal experience and then because of the overwhelming positive research that mindfulness has, to help cope with many different challenges in life, including sobriety, including alcoholism, including, anxiety and depression.
[00:25:25] Sonia: That's interesting the idea of like the research. So are there any studies that highlight the benefits of mindfulness in addiction and recovery?
[00:25:34] Kathleen: Yeah, there are many, many, many studies that highlight it. I mean, there's too many to, to go into.
[00:25:42] Kathleen: so we'll link to, um, some research in the show notes. I, I found, a really good article that is, more of like a summary of a lot of different research out there. It's like a meta analysis of research about how, treatment approaches for addiction. I would say [00:26:00] where the research.
[00:26:01] Kathleen: Maybe fall short a little bit is that there's no, well, not that I've seen. So I'm not going to say no, but really, really long term studies yet. So we're not, we're talking like there's no like 50 year studies on the impact of mindfulness, but, there is really, really positive research for the treatment, the use of mindfulness, in treatment approaches for addiction, not always a standalone, but in combination with other things too.
[00:26:30] Sonia: I think there is a huge amount of anecdotal evidence.
[00:26:33] Kathleen: Oh, there's a lot. There's a lot out there. I wrote one too many papers on it in grad school. So, there's a lot, a lot of research out there for sure.
[00:26:42] Sonia: Thank you for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we'll see you next week when we'll continue our deep dive into mindfulness [00:27:00]