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The Factory Floor is hosted by the three co-founders of Conversion Factory, the marketing agency at the forefront of SaaS growth, marketing, and tech trends. Episodes are released on Twitter one day early, @coreyhainesco.
Every other week Corey, Zach, and Nick break down what’s working right now in SaaS marketing, share real-world lessons from the field, and give you the strategies you need to outpace the competition.
You can also find us on YouTube, X, and everywhere you listen to podcasts!
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Let's get to the good stuff because we have a battle to go through just like the Lord of the Rings and the Star Wars.
Welcome to Factory Floor, if you're listening. My name is Nick, okay?
I have my two beautiful lovely co-hosts. One of them is Corey Haynes and the other is Zach Stevens.
We are the founders of Conversion Factory. We help SaaS founders build their marketing engines and today we're going at it.
There's going to be a battle. Copy first websites versus design first websites. I have brought, of course, my copywriter, Corey Haynes and my designer, Zach Stevens.
I am hoping that they argue about this. That is my one goal. I don't think it's going to happen because I think we agree, but I figured we would just start there.
Maybe you guys can argue. But anyway, so that's what we're going to get into.
Gentlemen, anything you want to say in the intro here of the thing before we get into the topic?
I'm doubtful that we're going to argue and the designer.
I know. Maybe you can play devil's advocate just for the fun of it. Or I can argue the side of design first, that'd be fun.
Oh, okay. I actually don't know if I could. I don't think there's enough. I don't think there's enough.
Or we could just tell the truth. I think that's good too.
Yeah, let's do that. So the first thing we want to get into is what is the point of a website?
And obviously we're going to do this through the context of design first versus copy first. But what is the point of a website? Corey, why don't you as the as the marketer kick us off?
Yeah, this is something that it's funny. It was honestly about this topic. I was thinking back to when I was first getting into marketing.
And it feels so easy and nice to be like, oh, let me just take this template of this nicely designed website that somebody already built.
And that I can just like fill in the blanks and easy peasy steps that I have a nice polished finished website after this.
And then I actually tried to do that and I realized that that doesn't work super well.
The end result is almost always bad because you're working within constraints that you're not supposed to be constrained by.
So when we talk about what was the point of a website, right? Like what we want, the end goal is a really good website.
And what does a really good website do? A really good website communicates something that compels someone to buy your thing, right?
That's really all the point is you just need people to click that buy button. There's a lot of like, you know, different variations of what that buy button is.
And there can be secondary call to actions and lots of other tangential goals of a website. But at the end of the day, your website is your digital storefront.
Right. It's like, this is the place that people go to in order to buy from you.
And the biggest like ingredient to making it successful is what the website says, not how it looks.
And so herein lies the problem.
Corey, did you, how many iterations did it take on that first like, oh, let me get this website up the first time.
Take like, okay, I did the first time and it just looked terrible. And the copy was all weird. Like how many times did it take you before you're like, okay, I can actually put this out. I think.
Well, like 100 and then I never got something that was good.
Because the problem is, yeah, the problem is that you end up breaking the design. You end up breaking the template, right?
If you really start to go back to the copy, then you realize that the copy that you want isn't going to fit within the design that you have.
So you're trying to change and tweak the design that you have, which ends up making it look worse.
And then you kind of keep going around around around the circles because now your copy isn't that good and your design isn't that good.
And by like you end up with a site that you're not happy with.
Because just going through that process ends up making both your copy and your design worse.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that the coming out from a designer's perspective, I had tried it for a long time to like the thing that I'm always concerned about is, is this going to be helpful in making that buying decision a lot easier.
And what I noticed as I was communicating with designers and trying to design sites for clients, but then they're not knowing what kind of content they wanted to put on there and how to structure it so that they could communicate everything that was necessary for someone who had never heard about their product to either convert in some capacity like buying it or maybe taking
a sign up for a newsletter, anything that was a point of action that they weren't really get it organized in the content in a selling manner.
And the way that I first heard about this was actually from Donald Miller.
Donald Miller has a book called I think it's marketing made simple.
You see the marketing made simple or business made simple one of the two and he goes through putting his story brand architecture of you need like in order for somebody to understand what you do, they have to understand how it fits into their life.
And it's specifically how it helps them solve a problem.
So then I started taking that framework of problem solution steps to or problem steps necessary to enact a solution proof of the solution is viable.
And those are really the big, the main things.
And then I saw the way that Corey hurt articulated it taking a lot of inspiration from things like those are really janky commercials of like, hey, you don't know how to crack.
You don't know how to crack an egg. Here's an egg cracker for you.
And if you look at those commercials, it's always like specifically with the egg one, you have someone who is violently smashing an egg on a frying pan, obviously over the top and over exaggerated.
But it helps you understand like, yeah, you know, I really do have our time cracking eggs and I have to do that on a daily basis.
So if there is some way that I could fix this, it'd be really fantastic. And that's the point of your website, it's to help them understand.
Their problem articulate why your service or product is a solution to that problem, the steps to the solution.
And then proof of that solutions viability with things like case studies, social proof, and then other tangential information that really just expands upon those core tenants.
And it's the centrifuge of all your marketing efforts now, like if someone's going to make a purchase decision, they're going to go to your website to do that.
Most likely with the exception of people who have like, you know, square or card or point of sale elements, but we work with SAS companies and that isn't going to happen.
I was going to ask because so I came from some real estate somewhat in the background of my career.
And the idea that like your website is your number one marketing asset is, it's definitely true in all the industries that we generally work with and most of our clients, you know, that is the truth.
But in a lot of other industries that's not really the case, will that catch up, is that like just like a time thing where it's like, okay, if you're a realtor, you know, your referrals are your number one marketing asset.
But is it just a matter of time before other industries, everything is like, no, everyone goes to their website to get the thing about the stuff and press the button.
Yeah, I mean, I think so. We see it more and more just with like market share and volume of ecommerce transactions versus, you know, retail in person transactions.
That's why Amazon stock keeps going up. That's why Shopify keeps going up. That's why everybody keeps investing more and more into advertising into their websites and to just marketing in general, right.
Especially online digital marketing. He's in the word online marketing digital marketing. It's just to me, you know, everything I do is pretty much online digital.
So it feels kind of redundant. But to your point, the world is definitely becoming more and more online, more and more digital first.
But as a counterpoint to that too, or not really counterpoint, but as another interesting thought just off of that is that you'd be surprised still how many people who are completely reliant on their website to make sales, don't put any effort or thought into their website whatsoever.
Like it's a terrible afterthought. They will spend one driver of revenue and they're just like whatever it's working.
It's literally the most important thing you can do in order to be successful with your business. And people will spend two or three years just building their product in a basement, you know, putting a lot of time, energy, thought, craftsmanship into their product.
And then they'll be like, hmm, what, you know, $10 WordPress template can I buy? And then let me spend 30 minutes to fill out this copy and replace what they already have in there so that I can get this live and online.
And like that's just not going to cut it. I'm sorry. But it's crazy to me that people think that they can just put so little time and effort into something like their website.
It'd be the equivalent of like, you know, you want to manufacture and sell really high-end luxury bags and you go and buy the equivalent of a lemonade stand to sell them.
Like how are you going to expect people to find you to buy from you, to trust you? It just doesn't look great, right? You're not going to have the right copy, you're not going to have the right design.
And this is that balance of copy and design. It's not just about copy versus design. What we're talking about is copy first versus design first, more of a processing.
You obviously need both of those. But the reason why you start with copy is because the most important thing is the message. It's the words. It's the things that you say.
And we know this from those old commercials that you mentioned where people are selling really crappy products, but they're selling them really well and they're selling a lot of those crappy products because they have really good marketing because they have a really good message because they have really good copy.
And I also seen this online too. It's not just about like old school commercials. And this is where I started to incorporate a lot of these messaging and copywriting frameworks into our processes for SaaS companies.
Because I would see these really old school sales letters online, you know, where it's literally like a giant wall of text. It is a letter. Sometimes these pages would be thousands of words long selling something like, you know, in really sketchy industries or selling really questionable products.
But they're selling like hotcakes, even though the pages themselves, the website looks so incredibly ugly. But the opposite isn't necessarily true. If you have a really, really nice looking well design website, but people don't understand what you sell, it's never going to sell.
Yeah, I think that's the, that's the reason why design first approach fails is people who come at this from a design first perspective, they haven't followed the headwaters appropriately. What, what is it that you are designing, you know, you are designing words and mainly specifically on the website and then accompanying graphics to support those words.
So if you screw the words up, then everything else is going to have a trickle down effect. And this is one of the reasons why I think that you could mention the templates. And when you have those templates, you're trying to retrofit like a new and improved copy into a template that isn't made for it. It's like trying to take a new like a Tesla battery engine and put it into a 1960s pickup track. It's not going to work because it's not made for it.
But if you start with copy, then you have a way better starting point and the headwaters are going to be polluted by a bunch of garbage.
So it's the biggest reason why I see design first failing because they don't start where they need to.
So as a designer, Zach, have you ever come across where you're like, okay, I got this, you know, I got this, you know, I decide this feature page or homepage or whatever it is and you get the copy and you're like, I don't want this isn't going to make, I have an, I have a vision already and it doesn't fit into my vision.
And kind of bothers you, do you have any of that or has that happened much recently?
Well, well, I'm kind of biased now because I mean, I read marketing made simple in, I read it before 2020 because I read it before COVID.
So I was already applying those principles and I have been for the past five years or so.
And since I started conversion factory, I've never had bad copy because all that has come for me.
So I didn't mean bad. I just meant like your vision.
It didn't hit already with the vision that you had lying dormant in your head for the client.
Not really.
Like I, yeah, well, what's your experience been like with like past freelance gigs, right?
Or like someone's like, hey, here's the copy and you're just like, okay, I just got to run with this.
Well, actually, I started writing copy for clients pretty early because I was like, this is so bad.
It would be, it was like they were, they were trying to be Apple, but they didn't have the cloud and the, the knowledge to, to be Apple.
You know, like you, you could only get a, get away with those one, like two word sentence quips that work.
If you have a multi billion dollar brand that has so much material built on top of it that you don't have to inform people about who you are and what you do and why they should trust you.
They just do because they know exactly who you are and because you are the gold standard for your product.
So that's what I had seen before as it is a lot of people trying to take these big brand tactics and then apply that to their copywriting.
But that didn't do a good job of selling something that wasn't commonplace in the market.
Like especially if you're trying to sell a new and innovative product that people don't even fully understand the problem that it solves yet.
Then you run into a lot of problems because no one understands how you fit into their life.
And I think that that was the big, the big issues that it was, it was a very vague language that was the only kind of things that I could design it that would help communicate those were abstract visuals that didn't support and further communicate the importance of this product.
Can I tell you an anecdote about Apple quickly?
Yeah, go ahead.
So it's actually great. I love that you brought up Apple because Apple really is what a lot of people aspire to both on the copy and the design aspect, which is interesting because most time it's one or the other.
And most of the time people mainly care about the design more, you know, they care more about like having a really cool brand and logo and colors and they want things to look really good.
If the substance isn't great, which again, it's another reason why people usually gravitate more towards a design first process by default, which is not great.
But Apple is a great case study in this too because these quippy short little phrases that apples become known for weren't just by accident.
The think different tagline wasn't their original tagline and it sort of became what they were known for and started dictating a lot of their marketing strategy and cooperating strategy because the think different campaign was so successful in helping them build market share because at one point Apple was the challenger.
Everybody had PCs, everybody at Microsoft, everybody was was used to, I mean, not even just Microsoft and PC, but just in general, there was like Apple was not the standard for a PC, right.
And so they needed to figure out a way to attract contrarians and innovators and early adopters and people who were interested in something that wasn't the standard.
So they came with the tagline think different because people who differently would resonate with that message, right.
And then they beat that sort of became the de facto thing. And I think the meaning actually has changed a lot over time because ironically Apple is still the standard now and everybody agrees that Apple is way cooler than Microsoft or any other PC, but we still think different.
It's like, no, you don't. It's just sort of.
Yeah, rolls totally flipped. Yeah, that's the that's the power of design and reading right there is that it will make you think things that aren't true.
Yeah, yes, absolutely, it becomes like a cult. And you just start agreeing with things that you don't even know the meaning of.
What was their original tagline? Do you know?
Oh, I don't know.
I mean, I think they didn't really have one. The closest thing that I could think of is.
Because think different came from the.
The black and white video campaign, the here's the rebels or here's the crazy ones, the outcasts, the rebels, the, you know, where they had all these beautiful shots of Einstein, Picasso, Thomas Edison.
And they were your heart, like, you know, the the rebels who thought differently.
And the only thing that comes close to that as far as their marketing half would have been the 1984 campaign, which was the 1984 will not be 1984.
But this is before this is before like the.
I think this is before taglines were kind of solidified as a non changeable asset, you know, like.
They're kind of just like, this is our think different commercial.
It was like the name of the one.
And I mean, you can think of it.
And that's not even really like their core tagline anymore, because I hardly see it used anywhere.
It's just the most famous one.
The only one that I can think of that.
Hasn't changed for the longest time is McDonald's, which is the I'm loving it.
It's not.
I'm loving it.
Oh, sorry.
Or probably Nike just do it.
But anyway, the point being is also just added on much later, by the way.
How is it, like, a decade wise, where, where does that fit in?
Man, I read two dogs.
So I should know this, but I have a terrible memory.
But I know that there's like a whole chapter where think different.
Or I'm sorry, where just do it is introduced.
And that helps the company's trajectory.
This could be a whole thing.
We should do some more research on taglines.
Yeah.
I don't know when exactly it was, but also just to, to sign my sources here.
The original tagline for Apple was the power to be your best.
And then in 1997, that's when they introduced think different.
And that's been their most successful campaign and use of a tagline since then.
Yeah.
I mean, but by 1997, though, they were pretty, like, they were more than a startup, you know,
they had, they were doing millions and millions of dollars in revenue.
They were not performing very well at that point, because thinks the jobs had just come back.
Right.
And then kind of everything.
But, yeah, Apple was struggling a lot still.
Yeah.
We have deviated quite a bit from the copy first.
That point being that quippy, quippy copy doesn't fit when you are in the context of brands that we are working with,
which is, I have a problem to solve.
How can you help me solve it and educate somebody as to why your solution is beneficial?
So there's one, one analogy in here that Corey had written down, which I find, I find absolutely fascinating and perfect.
Just kiss.
It is a chef's kiss one, especially given the current climate around these films.
Starting with the sign is like making a Marvel movie in the last couple of years where you spend hundreds of millions of dollars in special effects.
But the plot and story is garbage.
So how does, how does a copy first approach a fixed marvel so we can get paid millions of dollars to now write their stories for them?
But then also how does it fix the, why is it better than design first?
Yeah.
I mean, the base ingredient here is the story.
And like you mentioned earlier with building a story brand and all the other examples of like just the way that people understand things,
people communicate through stories.
And stories is stories are a journey from point A to point B. And when you're trying to sell something to somebody,
you're trying to tell them a story about how they can go from their point A to wherever they want to go, wherever their point B is.
And so your landing page and your copy should reflect that journey that you want to help them go through.
You don't take them on that journey. It's not a, you know, you aren't the journey.
You are giving them the magic pill, the magic being the, the bridge, the super power they need exactly the lightsaber, the force sensitivity they need in order to go from point A to point B, right.
And there's always a logical flow to it, right. So I'm not going to talk about all the ingredients because there's a lot of different frameworks and ideas for that.
But the point is that there is a logical flow for how people understand how you can help them get from their point A to point B and wherever they want to go.
And it's all dependent on the copy and the message.
And then the way that you pack a jump that copy and that message is what I would consider to be the design, you know, and the presentation of that information.
But the order of the way that you tell that story matters, how much information is in each one of those components of that story matters.
Just like what we were talking about before with Florida, the rings versus Star Wars, the story matters a ton of there's so many different elements to the story.
In the same way, there's so many different elements to copy that you have to be very meticulous about each one, each of the components within your copywriting.
So that when you do package it up with the design, it's something that has legs and it's going to sell.
I feel like I've been hashtag blessed because I work with you guys who are like on the same page with this, like I can imagine a world where there's a designer who thinks design first design first design first and then the copywriter who thinks this copy first copy first.
But I feel like the it seems like this that design is meant when it comes to building landing pages and websites that the design is it fits so much better at second going second.
Like it feels like, okay, this is not only is it that, you know, they can have fun and make the design beautiful and all this stuff, but they also have these parameters that they're like, hey, you have to stay in these guidelines and these guidelines are the site.
The copy is the site, like the guidelines that they've been written already are there to basically like bumpers to keep you so that you can roll all the way down and hit the pins at the end.
But I am glad that you guys are in agreement.
It would be really bad if you were sorry, exactly.
Well, I think that that's I would say there's two kinds of design that we need to consider it here.
Like there's capital D design, which is just the the creation of anything with intention.
And then there's lowercase D design, which is the practice of making things look aesthetically pleasing and design.
Like if you want to be a real designer like capital D design, you should consider the architecture of a website and what it's supposed to do so that it's function doesn't get altered and ruined by its form and form comes secondary.
That's where I think that the real the real issue is is that people have this idea for like a gorgeous template or a gorgeous hero section.
And when the copy doesn't fit that template the way that they have designed it, then you run into issues, but they're over.
They're missing the point, which is a higher calling of you know of true design and architecture.
I can think of I mean, there is some stuff that comes to mind whether there wasn't necessarily pushback, but maybe it's things were like.
I'm thinking of scenarios where like we've had to include a lot of different material into a hero section and I've suggested things to quarry like hey have we considered you know maybe doing this we can include a testimonial here.
Or you know maybe we have like seven seven to 10 logos that we want to show and instead of having a logo pool you know we'll put those up in the hero instead and we can have them scroll across.
But I'm not like taking away the content because I feel like the message is still important and the trick with design is to work the copy and the content in a way that still feels branded still feels like it has good hierarchy could flow.
There's good rhythm and that the graphics that you're creating alongside the copy are supporting the core message.
But I'm I think that's that is true design is can you work with this copy and be very creative in the way that you display it so that all the information is arranged in a way that helps tell the story and move that person from point A to point B so they're ready to make a purchase decision.
I like that distinction between capital D design and lowercase D design and I think you can make an argument that copy writing is actually capital D design choosing what information should be here and what the order is and creating something with intention right it's.
It's thinking through what do I need to say and how do I need to present this information in order to get a sale right that really is capital D design.
Yeah, I should change my title from well, I shouldn't change my title people were so focused on aesthetic should change their title to like landing page as the tuition instead of instead of designer.
Yeah, if you do want to be a designer, I feel like you need to accept that higher calling, which is capital D design true design and crafting with intention.
So I'm a true designer then as I'm the real designer here.
Well, hey man.
I should do this.
Yeah, we don't need to do this right now.
I'll see you on the last query.
Yeah, they're going to fight over it.
I do want to bring this up because I think that it's a it's a topic that I've seen like on YouTube and we're on LinkedIn where people always say like and I hear this from marketers and I know they're just doing it because.
It's clickbait and the only reason they're writing it is to piss designers off because designers are the most vocal people when they see stuff like this, which is what converts best is ugly.
And I want to impact that because I think that this is.
It's a load of bull.
Because it doesn't have to be ugly.
It's the and you see this all the time, but like they'll intentionally make good content arranged poorly.
But the flip side is that they arrange bad content nicely, but you can still arrange good content in a nice way too.
And there's no reason that what converts best is ugly.
It's not ugly by choice.
I think that what is happening is you have good content that is not arranged appropriately.
And this is one of the big reasons why.
Why I wanted to work with someone like Corey was because it's like I know how to arrange the things that are said well in a good way that still honors design.
It doesn't make me feel like the bastard child of my industry.
But someone who can also appreciate aesthetic and like give me good words to arrange and good supporting content to actually give this thing wings.
Corey, what do you think about that little clip that you know?
I think maybe we can split this out into capital U ugly and lowercase U ugly.
Because when I think of what converts best is ugly, quote unquote, is sometimes what I mean is it wouldn't be your first choice for how you would choose to arrange or display something.
And so you might think like, oh, that's ugly because if I really had my brothers, I would do it differently.
Sometimes you do need to pack up a lot of information in so that it's a little bit more, it's all together.
Or it's a little bit more cluttered or there isn't as much white space as you would choose.
It's just maybe not your first choice.
What was that uppercase? Was that capital U?
Whatever the opposite is lowercase ugly is like this actually looks bad.
And I definitely don't think that things need to or should look bad.
In fact, I really hate when people reference like, oh, you know, Craigslist.com looks super ugly and it makes a billion dollars a year or whatever.
I'm like, cool, that's probably the exception to the rule versus the rule itself.
And if you really are like trying to make something ugly, that just feels so nonsensical to me.
Because I do actually think that making things beautiful design well, you know, aesthetically pleasing actually helps.
I feel like we have some stats somewhere, but like good design, especially nowadays.
And core that's really, really high with trust and with perceived value and quality.
And I think you could especially take this rule brick and it's kind of rule of thumb to the world of like e-commerce and retail products.
Because you'll almost never see a premium tier product that is ugly or presented in an ugly way.
I mean, think about anything luxury or think about anything that people would consider to be like top value or, you know, a premium type of product or service.
And it's almost never ugly. Sure, you can get away with something being ugly.
And maybe sometimes something being a little bit ugly can be like a Zag strategy or just stands out and that can work a little bit.
But I don't think it's like a strategy, you know, and purposely make something ugly is crazy.
And that eventually becomes an idea to be holder, you know, like because for a while, you can look at things like the luxury brands like Blancyaga or Prada or Burberry.
And some of the stuff they create now is like, I don't know if I want to wear that.
You know, that's and but like you said, that's more of a Zag strategy compared to the like is it actually ugly or is it trying to be aesthetically pleasing by not being aesthetically pleasing by being trendy and fattish.
You know, like, and I think that that's one of the one of the things that people get hung up on as well.
It's like, yeah, but ugly, like it's super popular now. It's like that sort of like we should we'll talk about trends versus fads at some other.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's settled.
I think copy first wins, right? I mean, we're all agree.
I think so.
Can I add one more anecdote to that just as another quick story is, you mentioned earlier about like what we were asking Zach about like experiences with, you know, people presenting bad copy them having to design it.
I've had a couple of instances where designers come to me with a really good design that I have to read copy for.
And that's also really difficult.
And the first couple of times, I didn't really think very much of it because I was like, oh, like again, this is easier where this should be easier because now I have something to work within.
It's just a mad live film the blank, right?
But then you end up just overthinking everything and you're making headline shorter in order to fit the design.
And you think, okay, this only a lot for one sentence, but really I want to say two or I need three sentences and only a lot's one or, you know, just the information that you need to display isn't or the layout you need to display the information you want to convey isn't available, which is frustrating.
And one of the last times that this happened, I was very much in the camp of like copy first by this point, but I had in a, in a backlog, a project to redo the homepage.
And me thinking copy first thought, okay, well, I'm just going to write the copy when I get to that and then I'll hand it off to our designer.
Well, the designer saw it in the backlog and he thought, huh, I got some room on my plate. I'll just start designing it right now.
So he started redesign the homepage without me knowing and then came back to me and was like, hey, I have this done.
And I was like, oh, wait, no, so that's not how we're going to do things.
And then it's feelings were hurt because he thought I didn't like the design, but it was more that I didn't, that's not the process that I wanted to go through.
And that it was too hard for me to think through how to make copy that I haven't written yet fit into this new design and layout that he had created.
And so anyways, it became this big, this big issue.
And it was fine. I mean, like we were totally cool by the end of it, but those types of miscommunications were really hard and very counterproductive too.
Because just in my experience, I don't think there's been one time where writing the copy first has led to a lot of back and forth between the design where we're like, this just doesn't work and like this is hard to it.
But it's almost every single time I've tried to do design first and then a copulator that it's like, we got to go back to the drawing board because this isn't going to work and this isn't going to fit.
And we got to redo this and this and this and this.
If you have to just do it together as well, because then you can do things like there's there's a very happy medium here where art and copy sit in the same room and then wireframe out the page together and approach it from a very low fidelity perspective where there's not a ton of over investment and then you're both aligned.
And then you can be far more effective, which we've done a couple times, but like I mean, Corey writes copy so fast that it's like it makes sense to just have him do it.
And then make the words that he writes look beautiful or you can just be me and not write any copy or do any design and you just put it in the webflow, put it in the website.
And then you get all credit.
Yeah, I'm like, I get the big reveal at the end where I push the line button. That's great.
Yeah.
Nick is Nick is the baton at the end.
Yeah, I get to run through the the checkered flag or something something like that.
Okay, well, I think that wraps it up.
I'm glad they were on the same page. It means more more button clicks for the clients and things like that.
So great conversation.
Next week, we will be talking about hunger games versus some other terrible team story. I don't know twilight. Maybe or something.
Beats here, sci fi.
Yeah, there we go.
But yeah, any final words.
I don't think so.
I think we said it.
And copy first.
If anyone else has any questions or comments on this, we're all years.
Smash it.
Like watching your minds.
Yeah.
That's the fact.
So in this to 10 friends or else you'll, you'll go to hell or something.
Yeah.
Okay, sweet.
All right, well, we're signing off and we will see you next time on the factory floor.
Done.
Thank you.