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What if true leadership isn’t about pushing harder or overriding your limits, but about listening more deeply to your body and your wisdom?In this conversation, Barb sits down with Julie Chazotte, transformational coach and co-founder of Simple SHIFT, to explore what it really means to embody leadership. Julie shares her own journey from overwhelm and pressure to discovering the transformative role of the nervous system, somatic awareness, and embodied presence.Together they dive into the hidden costs of ignoring our limits, how to recognize the signals of the body, and why befriending our humanity is the key to accessing greater clarity, resilience, and creativity. Julie offers real-life examples of working with leaders navigating overwhelm, people-pleasing, and high-pressure environments, and shows how honoring our inner cues can shift everything from the quality of our decisions to the depth of our relationships.If you’ve ever felt stuck in your head, caught in self-doubt, or disconnected from your own clarity, this episode will give you a new way to see, and a new way to lead.Thank you for listening to the episode! Follow Barb for new episodes of The Innerverse of Business and Life podcast every Thursday.SHOW NOTES* [00:00] - Introduction to Embodied Leadership* [02:07] - Julie Chazotte's Journey and Transformation* [07:17] - Understanding Limits and Overwhelm* [10:25] - The Role of the Nervous System in Leadership* [17:56] - Practical Applications for Leaders* [20:59] - Navigating Stress and Pressure* [26:46] - The Importance of Trusting Inner Wisdom* [31:25] - Embracing Change and Uncertainty* [37:11] - The Call to Step into Leadership* [44:34] - Closing Thoughts and ReflectionsSHOW LINKS* Visit Julie's website (https://www.julieannechazotte.com/).Interested in learning more about the podcast? Visit Barb's website (https://barbarapatterson.com/embodied-leadership-julie-chazotte-on-limits-wisdom-the-nervous-system/).
What if true leadership isn’t about pushing harder or overriding your limits, but about listening more deeply to your body and your wisdom?
In this conversation, Barb sits down with Julie Chazotte, transformational coach and co-founder of Simple SHIFT, to explore what it really means to embody leadership.
Julie shares her own journey from overwhelm and pressure to discovering the transformative role of the nervous system, somatic awareness, and embodied presence.
Together they dive into the hidden costs of ignoring our limits, how to recognize the signals of the body, and why befriending our humanity is the key to accessing greater clarity, resilience, and creativity. Julie offers real-life examples of working with leaders navigating overwhelm, people-pleasing, and high-pressure environments, and shows how honoring our inner cues can shift everything from the quality of our decisions to the depth of our relationships.
If you’ve ever felt stuck in your head, caught in self-doubt, or disconnected from your own clarity, this episode will give you a new way to see, and a new way to lead.
Thank you for listening to the episode! Follow Barb for new episodes of The Innerverse of Business and Life podcast every Thursday.
Interested in learning more about the podcast? Visit Barb's website.
This podcast is a space to explore the profound connection between our inner world and our work in the world. We dive deep into the heart of what it means to live and work from a felt knowing of our essential selves – aligned, alive, and fully expressed. We’ll play at the intersection of business, spirituality, consciousness, and growth.
Through intimate conversations with thought leaders, change-makers, authors, and humans just like you and me, you’ll hear real stories of transformation and the internal shifts, “aha” moments, and wake-up calls that have helped them to access new dimensions of creativity, higher levels of intelligence, unlock dormant potentials and experience greater joy and fulfillment.
00:00:02:13 - 00:00:31:06
Unknown
Hi, it's Barb. Welcome back to the universe of business and life. Today I'm joined by friend and colleague Julie Shahzad. Julie is a transformational coach for businesses and leaders and changemakers, and the co-founder of Simple Shift. Julie's work blends spirituality, psychology and the nervous system wisdom, and she shares how embodied leadership isn't about transcending humanity. It's about inhabiting it.
00:00:31:08 - 00:01:02:21
Unknown
In our conversation today, she shares her own journey from overwhelm and pressure into discovering the wisdom of the body. She shares how to hear the signals of the nervous system. We talk about limits, people pleasing, and what happens when we start to truly listen and trust. This is a rich conversation, but also, Julie throws in some really helpful, practical ways in which we can support our own ability to listen and lean into what she's showing us.
00:01:02:23 - 00:01:05:17
Unknown
So without further ado, here's Julie.
00:01:16:23 - 00:01:38:00
Unknown
Hi, Julie. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Hey, thanks for having me, Barb. I'm so excited to do this with you. Me too. You know, for anyone that's been listening for a long time, we did a podcast episode a number of years ago when it was the real business, real lives. And I love that conversation. No surprise, because I love you.
00:01:38:00 - 00:02:09:16
Unknown
And and but I wanted to invite you back because we've been connected over these number of years and have these amazing kind of catch up conversations every once in a while. And, you know, often find that the work we're doing internally is aligned. And so it's been really nice and insightful for me to hear your journey. And so because I know you work with leaders, you work with founders, and you've been doing this a long time.
00:02:09:16 - 00:02:33:11
Unknown
I think that what you have to share and how you see it can be really valuable for folks listening. I want to just go right to, you know, the point at which you started this. I know that so much of what you do is help people see beyond the condition line. And that's not just in business, that's in family and community and the world.
00:02:33:12 - 00:03:03:03
Unknown
And yet, I also know you've shared with me kind of that journey where it what it went from an over focus on almost the mental base of it or an over focus on the past and the history and the psychology to where all of a sudden, somehow in the last few years, maybe a little longer, you've started to add this element around the nervous system in the body.
00:03:03:03 - 00:03:31:16
Unknown
And via that, you've seen some really amazing transformations in your work as well as yourself. So as always with everyone on these conversations, we're interested in you. So I would love if you would just share that journey with us a little bit. Whatever feels present for you, but share your own personal story around that. I mean, I'm like, I've always loved this conversation, so I don't even know if I've shared this part with you, but I studied sociology in college.
00:03:31:16 - 00:03:56:07
Unknown
Did I ever tell you that? Yes, yes. And the main reason I did was because I could see conditioning, but I didn't understand what it was. And I wanted to understand why some cultures had this conditioning. And I had moved from new Jersey to Arizona, and it was like a culture shock. It's like, what is happening? So I studied sociology to kind of better understand why I could be really direct in new Jersey and come off as rude in Phoenix, basically.
00:03:56:08 - 00:04:14:21
Unknown
And it showed me a lot. And then I studied education. I work with students, and, you know, you have to learn a lot about conditioning to work with students in a Broadway. And then I was like, you know, I thought I needed to climb the ladder, honestly. So I like made it to the height of that career and my nervous system.
00:04:14:21 - 00:04:31:23
Unknown
I didn't know it was my nervous system at the time. I thought it was me, like Julie was fried, so I would have to, like go to a school in another state that I had just met and give feedback to, like the teacher that was struggling the most in front of the principal that I just met like ten minutes before.
00:04:32:01 - 00:05:01:12
Unknown
And I like, you know, was good at it. But the second guessing and the nerves and the perfectionism that I still had running was so loud. And so I actually chose to set back because it was really like impacting how I felt. And that's when I went to USM and studied spiritual psychology. And then moved into the principles and then into somatic work and nervous system and I think my M.O. has always been like, how can I look at the same thing from a lot of different angles that resonate?
00:05:01:17 - 00:05:32:19
Unknown
And when I got to the nervous system in the somatic level, I'm like, they're all saying the same thing. They're just seeing it very differently. And they all add to each other. It's almost like you can see the prism more clearly. And at that point, what started happening was I started to be able to listen to the cues of my body and to be able to work with them and discern what they were even telling me, and to heal things that needed to be healed that might have been taking me out of the game or slowing me down, or just an example of that.
00:05:32:19 - 00:05:53:03
Unknown
Like, yeah, that played out for you. Because if I just want to, you know, kind of make sure I'm tracking with you that, you know, and not just gloss over that, that part of you that was out there really advancing. And in that career, there was it came with a lot of stress and self-doubt and a lot of who am I?
00:05:53:04 - 00:06:13:13
Unknown
Yes. Pressure. So it looked like the job was the issue, right, which we all can relate to. Raise our hands. You know, like I was the issue. Yes. You know what? I'm so glad you said that. Because when you said that a moment ago, I was like, I so relate. Yes, I look like the constant, you know, work in progress.
00:06:13:13 - 00:06:34:13
Unknown
I can totally relate to that. Yeah. So then as you went on to study all these different areas and you talked about it looking like they're all saying the same thing, I want to hear a little bit more about that before you get into the personal sort of. Yeah. What do you mean by so I'll give you one example.
00:06:34:13 - 00:06:57:06
Unknown
And then I looking that through each lens. Okay. Perfect. Great. So USM is spiritual psychology. So it was like you have a true nature and you also have a psychology. And let's say they would do something like healing of memories. So they would help you go back in time. And let's just keep it simple. Do something that would help heal that memory so that it wasn't feeling the same way that it once felt to you.
00:06:57:06 - 00:07:18:20
Unknown
And it was really powerful. But there was also something missing in it for me personally. So then when I got to the principal's, it was like memories made of thought. It's not even who I am. At USM, I was still so identified with the memory. It was like I had to change the memory change from it or do something.
00:07:18:20 - 00:07:40:09
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And then the principles really, really, really. I mean, I stayed really invested heavily and I still listen to it quite often. Like I was invested in that for almost seven years because I really was like, I'm seeing something that I haven't really deeply seen before, which was like tweezing apart my identity from my experience. Yeah, yeah.
00:07:40:10 - 00:07:59:09
Unknown
And then I felt stuck again. I felt really stuck again. I was like, why am I stuck? It's just, because you know, when I do, I am. Yeah, right. But why why is it still playing out or why is it still taking me out of the game? You know, why do I need to recover from this thought so often?
00:07:59:09 - 00:08:25:10
Unknown
Or why do I bump up against it so much or whatever the case was? You know? So then as I started studying the nervous system and somatic work more deeply, I was like, I mean, honestly, this is real talk. Barb. Yeah. I was like, I'm disassociated. Yeah, yeah, I had no idea. And then somatic work just helped me to experience even just that, like to literally welcome the feeling of being disassociated.
00:08:25:10 - 00:08:43:13
Unknown
And I was because I was so scared of that word. And for some people, they really need someone to help hold them through that. And but for me, it was just more like, oh, this is what it is. It's not even that big of a deal. And so it's like I befriended my body instead of being disconnected from it.
00:08:43:13 - 00:09:02:03
Unknown
And then all of a sudden I was getting way more wisdom, way more information, because I was literally listening to the cues that were coming through and being able to receive what they were trying to tell me. And then that was like where I started realizing, like, most of humanity doesn't know they have limits would be my guess.
00:09:02:03 - 00:09:22:05
Unknown
Like, I would, that they have limits. What do you mean by that? Like, so I work with leaders. So it's like I'm like a lot of times, okay. Before I worked with leaders, I would watch my brother and sister who were really high up executives, and I'm the youngest. So I was always like, you know, what are they doing?
00:09:22:07 - 00:09:42:14
Unknown
And they were always pushing past. I didn't know to call them limits, but they're always pushing through. There was never something they couldn't do or they they always showed up, like even when they were sick or, you know, they I don't know, they just were always showing up in ways where I was pulling back. And so that just always stood out to me.
00:09:42:14 - 00:10:01:05
Unknown
And then when I started working with leaders, I saw the same thing. Oh, they're burned out because they don't they're not even aware of their inner limits. Like what's an actual yes for them and what's a no for them. And I saw a lot of conditioning being played out through that. Like, you have to go to work even if you're sick or whatever the conditioning is, you know.
00:10:01:05 - 00:10:31:15
Unknown
So it just put me in touch with like really common sense, which is what the principles had given me originally too, was like, oh, we have common sense, but if we're not listening to our body, we don't even really get to get the gist of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's it's amazing because when people can see the role that thought has and how they perceive the world, and that often, as you said, we're just over identifying with the thinking we're having in a moment.
00:10:31:15 - 00:11:03:21
Unknown
And when we're able to loosen that relationship, we naturally just get access to fresh thinking, new perspective, all that kind of. But that relationship between what's happening internally in our inner landscape and how we're moving in the world, right? How we're actually behaving is something I think often gets missed because there's so much out there about behavior modification and getting in a good state of mind and grit, and you can override.
00:11:03:21 - 00:11:31:13
Unknown
And it's true, we can, we can. And listen, there's times I'm grateful for my grit. And yet also it often leads to, like you said, a disassociation or like we have access to this whole other source of wisdom and insight and knowledge, and we're just cut off from it because, you know, it just looks like it's a mental game only, or it's a psychological game only or spiritual.
00:11:31:13 - 00:11:50:17
Unknown
Getting in touch with our spiritual nature is only about feeling good, rather than seeing it as this whole system. And that's where I think I hear and what you're saying, where the body comes in and the nervous system comes in. Yeah, I mean, that was the point at which I felt stuck, I would say was, well, what do I do with the uncomfortable feelings?
00:11:50:17 - 00:12:13:08
Unknown
What are they even there for? And then as I started to listen to them, I just got a lot more information that I had lost access to, you know. But. And can you share an example of that, something you're comfortable sharing? Yeah. Of course. I mean, I'm fairly transparent. So this is my most recent one. Okay. Good. So sadly I just recently unexpectedly lost a friend and a mentor.
00:12:13:08 - 00:12:32:20
Unknown
And it was very unexpected. And we are doing a business venture with this person. And he's a close friend, so he's had many roles. He's also my son's godfather. Like it's just he's very close to our heart and it was a really we were like celebrating his birthday one day and then he was pretty much gone the next day.
00:12:32:20 - 00:12:55:19
Unknown
So when I came home and the reality of that was hitting me was really overwhelm. And what I noticed was I was I'm gonna, like, describe it as best I can. I was going into my mind almost like a knight putting on armor like to just here's what we do, you know, kind of like, let's just armor up and go.
00:12:55:21 - 00:13:14:10
Unknown
But I was like, I don't know, something feels really something feels off. Like I could just tell something felt off. So I literally just dropped into my body and felt overwhelmed. And when I felt it, I was like, oh, I can actually just be there for myself right now. There's nothing that I need to, like, go get in charge of, you know what I mean?
00:13:14:12 - 00:13:39:19
Unknown
And so it softened me, and it opened up space for me to hear wisdom that was going to come in over days and weeks. Not minutes, if that makes any sense. Yeah. And so in the past, let's say if I thought, okay, I could see that this is spot or I'm, I'm destabilized and it's me thinking, I don't know that I would have known had a drop to truly drop out of it, if that makes any sense.
00:13:39:19 - 00:14:05:02
Unknown
I probably would have stayed numb to something and maybe gotten moments of reprieve, but I don't know that I would have been able to, like, let my body receive what it needed to receive, which was to soften and to grieve and to create space and to, like I said, the the most important one was seeing all this. This information is going to unfold over weeks and months and years.
00:14:05:02 - 00:14:31:06
Unknown
It's not going to unfold. I'm not gonna have all the answers by tomorrow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. And I'm sorry to hear about your loss as well. Thank you. Yeah. And, you know, I think grief is one of those places where, you almost can't help. You know, I know we do, but, like, it just comes in waves, and it's such an unpredictable one.
00:14:31:08 - 00:15:00:18
Unknown
And I love what you're saying about just allowing ourselves to be present to it. And often in that presence, there's a richness, there's connection. There's just an honesty in that honesty. Everybody's relaxed. So I think it's such a poignant example of just allowing ourselves to be present to it. And, you know, people will often say, oh, I can't go there because I'll never get out of it.
00:15:00:18 - 00:15:25:19
Unknown
You know, I think we have this sort of fear. But to your point, it's like, what if that thought is just a protective mechanism? You know, and that conditioned like you said, we're conditioned to as soon as there's any uncomfortableness where conditioned to go to our minds and problem solve, work it out, talk ourselves out of it, figure out the source, you know, whatever it might be.
00:15:25:19 - 00:15:57:13
Unknown
And recently I was leading a retreat. And one of the, participants, what, you know, was saying we were talking about this in a way of can you allow more of a direct experience of life? And that includes a feeling for experience of life. So and what you often find is like allowing the sensation and the more feeling full, it's it's like you just experience these the richness of the way you're not like undone all day long.
00:15:57:16 - 00:16:29:17
Unknown
It's not like if you feel emotion you can't do anything else. But there's something really beautiful and connected in that direction. And I said, like, the truth is, is when I feel myself getting uncomfortable, like I was talking about a tax situation and I literally like was like, okay, I can be with this. Like, it's okay. And an email, I mean, a letter came in the mail and it was like I literally had to tell myself, like, my first thing I wanted to do is just put it on the counter and not look at it.
00:16:29:19 - 00:16:51:01
Unknown
And believe me, I've done that, you know? Hence part of the problem, you know, not opening my mail, but every part of me was like in a light or I'm in the middle of something. But because I had started to see that pattern of avoidance or dodging, you know what feels uncomfortable? I was like, okay, no, no, no, you can open the letter.
00:16:51:01 - 00:17:13:05
Unknown
Like literally telling myself, I can handle it. I can handle whatever this letter says and just to sit with it. But it's such a good example of, like you said, like you, we can get really stuck in a pattern of avoidance or overthinking or thinking about life versus being engaged in it. And I didn't realize so much of that pattern.
00:17:13:05 - 00:17:36:02
Unknown
What was at the bottom of it was, avoidance and a fear of just having that feeling, that feeling, that uncomfortableness. Yeah. And that was what was so striking to me in this example, too, with overwhelm was like, it wasn't just grief, right? It was a lot of information to receive at once. All of a sudden, this person who I was doing something with was gone.
00:17:36:04 - 00:17:54:21
Unknown
So that was no longer a path. It was a lot of information that was coming in at once, you know what I mean? Like what happens next and what does that even mean? And do we continue and like all that stuff. Right. What really. And there was grief. So that's so true. There was grief. I'm pretty good with grief for whatever reason.
00:17:54:23 - 00:18:26:00
Unknown
What I wasn't good with was overwhelm. And the overwhelm was what I thought was so fascinating to me was when I when I just allowed myself to experience it directly. To your point, I saw what I was doing and I had a new choice, and I had never seen that choice before. And the other thing that I want to just like be very passionate about, because I did have for for anyone else who's had some level of trauma in their background, I would say I had a fairly significant amount in my younger years.
00:18:26:00 - 00:18:46:22
Unknown
And what this has given me is like to know that I'm resourced always in ways I had no idea I was resourced. So this overwhelm when I was younger felt like it was it was going to undo me, you know, because I was a child and it was, you know, what do you do with this level of overwhelm?
00:18:47:00 - 00:19:04:15
Unknown
But when it stays unconscious like that, you don't really get to revisit it and make new choices about it. You know what I mean? Unless you come present to it again. So that's where I felt like, oh, we get way more access to wisdom when we can get present to what's happening in the body, you know? Yeah, yeah.
00:19:04:15 - 00:19:27:21
Unknown
That's amazing. And so how has how does that transfer like, I'm thinking of, you know, people wondering right now. Well, how do you have this conversation with the executive or. Yeah. What is this. How do you know people can't in the middle of work day sit and get present? I, you know, I'm just wondering, yeah, what people might be thinking.
00:19:27:21 - 00:19:46:06
Unknown
So how would you respond to that? So I really thought about my work. I feel like I work with people who want to create change, you know, people who have a vision of a healthy world. I think we can create a healthier world, honestly like that. But we do have to go beyond our habits and patterns and conditioning.
00:19:46:08 - 00:20:06:22
Unknown
So I picked three leaders that I currently work with that are all in different industries. And what I really thought was so interesting about this is the patterns they're up against are quite universal. They're not that different, even though they're in different industries, even though they're different kinds of leaders, even though they have different gifts and skill sets.
00:20:07:00 - 00:20:28:20
Unknown
I would say there's a lot of the same learning curve in each area. Right? And so the first one that I'm thinking of really wants to create a product that can, you know, be healthier for the earth and be good for the consumer. But what I noticed in working with this person was they were hitting overwhelm quite frequently and that really high levels.
00:20:28:20 - 00:20:53:02
Unknown
And so when of course, during the day when you're like making decisions and in meetings and you're not going to like practice the skill of going into your body. But in our conversations, we can practice doing different things and, and kind of feeling into and even just receiving some basic education about it, you know, so that all of a sudden we reorient to the fact that overwhelms not actually a problem.
00:20:53:04 - 00:21:15:02
Unknown
It doesn't mean anything about us. It's not something wrong with us or our functioning. Right? Like it's actually just a signal that has information in it. And so we just worked on just being present with it and starting to listen to what it was communicating. And it became super clear that this person has limits, but they were ignoring them and they weren't communicating them.
00:21:15:04 - 00:21:39:16
Unknown
And so as they became more vulnerable about feeling that and communicating that as needed, then the conversations they were having went to like a much higher quality and people were able to be more transparent back, which I find allows for people to make clearer agreements with each other. It's like if we're scared to share what our limits are or our vulnerabilities, you can't even really have a clear conversation.
00:21:39:16 - 00:22:08:22
Unknown
You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So his overwhelm has gone down significantly, honestly, just from practicing that and a few other things associated with that. But I would say that's kind of like the heart of what changed for this person. Yeah. So let's say that, somebody is experiencing overwhelm or a lot of stress or pressure, you know, and, and those reasons for it are valid, right?
00:22:08:22 - 00:22:39:23
Unknown
Like, you know, they have a lot going on or circumstances at home are stressful. What would you what guidance would you give them on how they might be able to help themselves? I mean, it, as you know, the end is always slightly different depending on like the current makeup that the person is up against, you know. But I definitely do a lot of, like education around the nervous system so that people understand that they're getting signals that they could listen to.
00:22:40:01 - 00:23:07:12
Unknown
And then once people start to understand that they're way more willing to listen and to get present and to pay attention to them. And then some of those signals I'm trying to think of, well, the next person I'm thinking of, there was no space in her calendar. I mean, none. Yeah. None. I'm trying to think of what the signal was, but really quickly we realized it was people pleasing like that.
00:23:07:12 - 00:23:28:20
Unknown
She was ignoring her yeses and nos. It was always a yes. And it was a quick yes. And when we started talking about that, the signal we use is when you say that. Yes. How do you feel in your body? And then she dropped in and she felt it and she explained it. And I said, does it feel pure and clear or does it feel insecure?
00:23:28:22 - 00:23:48:06
Unknown
And she was like, oh, it feels really insecure, super reactive and very fast. And I was like, great, that's your signal that there's something there that's from past conditioning or from a pattern or from people pleasing. And so then we really worked on her being able to tell the difference between those two signals, like this one's the insecure one, this one is the clear one.
00:23:48:08 - 00:24:11:10
Unknown
And so then now she's been like almost ruthless about like like making sure that yes is a yes. And then paying attention to her limits because that's also mixed in there, you know. So she was able to advocate for resources and things that she actually needed, that she wasn't advocating to previously because she thought everything was her responsibility.
00:24:11:12 - 00:24:38:15
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Now you're bringing up when you say her limits. And then you mentioned limits. And the other example to do you mean like the limits of time limits of capacity? Are you talking about something else? The way it looks to me currently is like our body has limits. Our body's going to say I'm fatigued. Yeah. Clearly you have.
00:24:38:17 - 00:24:57:19
Unknown
Yeah. You need a nap. Or our body's going to say like, no, no, I don't want to take on that client. But if we have conditioning that's like or even a survival thing going on that we need to bring in more revenue or whatever it is, we're going to totally ignore that signal in that limit, and we will not get the wisdom of it.
00:24:57:21 - 00:25:18:03
Unknown
So part of what happened for her is she started listening into that. She started to really tell the difference between clients that actually made sense in her portfolio and clients that did not make sense in her portfolio and would be better serviced elsewhere. Yeah, yeah, it's for the highest good of everybody. Yeah, like sometimes the know is in service to everyone, right?
00:25:18:04 - 00:25:49:16
Unknown
It really is. For the most part it is. It just is. But her doing that means she can't do that for them. You know what I mean. Yeah yeah yeah, yeah I think, you know, I was thinking of this one leader who they were, they had developed this app and it was, you know, at a period of really high growth, which was really good news and exciting, and it meant resources weren't hadn't quite caught up.
00:25:49:18 - 00:26:36:04
Unknown
And so everyone was doing a lot more than really is possible to do really well. But he had this hesitation to taking stuff off his plate to share it, because he just felt like, oh man, nobody has capacity. And nobody, you know, and it's just gonna. But what was interesting was when he started to really question in a healthy way, all his ideas like, rather than just take them at face value, but to really question it and see the difference between sort of that inner nudge of something needs to be done here versus, you know, just the mind spinning on overdrive, trying to figure it all out.
00:26:36:06 - 00:27:20:03
Unknown
He was able to kind of get some to your point, get some more clarity and think of a particular person that he was worried had way too much stuff. But again, being willing to trust the clarity coming through in a deeper way, not just his mind's revved up thinking, conditioned thinking. He was able to have a conversation with that person who was thrilled because it was an opportunity to step into a new arena and do something so it's a simple example, I think, of how we don't realize how much that revved up, sort of high and intense internal pressure overwhelm, you know, constricts our thinking.
00:27:20:03 - 00:27:51:06
Unknown
And then we're in these patterned thoughts, taking them at face value one offs. So in that case, what I hear too is and I see this a lot, I see them myself. I see it in others. There's a lot of assumption made. Yeah. Yeah a lot of assumption made until like until I if, if my instinct and my clarity and my knowing point me in the direction of having a conversation, we're going to be able to have a transparent conversation where that person gets to actually say their experience.
00:27:51:06 - 00:28:13:07
Unknown
They get to say their yeses in those. I don't decide that for them. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. Of course we're going to have that conversation. But what I love about it is if I know that I'm more in touch with my yeses and no's, I actually trust other people to be in touch with theirs too. Yeah, and then I start making assumptions on other people's behalf, and I just ask, yeah, it's so much simpler.
00:28:13:09 - 00:28:43:20
Unknown
So earlier you talked about, you know, you were feeling stuck in a pattern that wasn't new and you had all your previous from the spiritual psychology to the, you know, understanding of the mind and the principles behind experience and all of that wasn't helping you experience something more helpful in that arena. Yeah. And I think, you know, I know I can think about that as well.
00:28:43:20 - 00:29:06:04
Unknown
I can think of examples. And even just yesterday, I was on a conversation on the phone with somebody who was saying, you know, I wonder if I'm barking up the wrong tree because I they're looking at making some changes in their business and there are solopreneurs. So much of what is solopreneur does is really up to them. Right?
00:29:06:04 - 00:29:29:20
Unknown
You know. And so she has this really strong desire to step into a new level of expression, but she has no evidence that it'll create money for her, because now she's made money in the past. Right? She has kind of the normal everyday, I think things that if people are honest, they face, which is, you know, avoiding cringe factor.
00:29:29:20 - 00:29:53:22
Unknown
Not sure if she has what it takes. And so she vacillates between I really want to go for it and she's super excited and she. Right. And it feels doable. Feels to then, it's just the right path is just the right decision. And maybe I should just go get a job. And that looks like where the solution is.
00:29:53:22 - 00:30:31:00
Unknown
If I could get clear, I either have to find the right thing I'm going to do on my own or I need to just go get a job. And yet, when we started talking that this is all to her and, you know, like that struggle, that kind of question is like a familiar home, you know? Yes. So we were talking about like, what if to your point, what if that mind game that was mental gymnastics, the constant wondering if you're on the right path is actually just the mind in a conditioned state and keeping you from.
00:30:31:00 - 00:31:02:20
Unknown
And I'm making it sound more darker than I mean it to, but, you know, like kind of keeping you from a deeper insight. Like, what if the direction is, what am I avoiding by not going fully for that? And I'm just curious because I worry for myself about overcomplicating things for people, not because people can't handle it, but because I think we can put people more into their intellect, which isn't really where chefs come from.
00:31:02:20 - 00:31:25:18
Unknown
It's not really where transformation happens. So just curious how you would what you have to say about that. So when I see someone in a pattern like that, what I'm most interested in is let me just say this in a way that doesn't make it complicated, since it, I see that there's a younger part of them that needed something that they didn't get that they could give themselves.
00:31:25:18 - 00:31:52:01
Unknown
Now. So it's like if they could feel into when did they start doing that? Oh, I started at 15. Because, you know, I mean, if I'm thinking about my own experience, it's like, it's about a group, you know, I'm 18, I'm about to graduate, and I have no idea what to do. And so I go between fight or flight and feeling excited and like, you know, and it's like, at 18, I didn't really have much guidance for how to, you know, spread my wings.
00:31:52:01 - 00:31:55:18
Unknown
I really was terrified of it.
00:31:55:20 - 00:32:19:08
Unknown
But that doesn't mean that we don't have wisdom to give ourselves now, that can help. Now, this is the nervous system part that I'm so excited about. This is based on Sarah Baldwin from how she shares her work, her understanding of the nervous system. But she shared that this fact that the nervous system is scanning for threat based on memory, it's doing it based on memory.
00:32:19:08 - 00:32:37:22
Unknown
It's not doing it even based on what's current. Right? It just if this even matches a memory, it's going to put me into that state and we go into the nervous system state we had at the time of the memory. So let's say I'm 18 and I don't know how to navigate that decision. Right then the thing I'm most curious about is what did I need at 18?
00:32:38:00 - 00:32:58:09
Unknown
And I am resource because I'm an adult. How can I give that to myself? So I'm nervous because I've never done this before. And I want you to know that I'm going to I'm going to hold you. I'm here no matter what. I'm not going anywhere. Like, you know, whatever the thing is that we actually needed to receive and to feel is going to settle the nervous system.
00:32:58:09 - 00:33:21:11
Unknown
It'll take us out of whatever state we're in and the nervous system state is creating the story that we're in. So the state comes first, right? So it's like if we can shift the state, then we'll come into our wisdom more naturally. And that's what I'm most interested in. I'm not interested in this being complicated, but I am interested in people hearing their wisdom directly and feeling like it's their wisdom, if that makes any sense.
00:33:21:11 - 00:33:46:04
Unknown
Because I don't know the answers. Like, I've had one client where it made sense for her to get a job so she could stabilize and make decisions from there, and then someone else, it's not going to make sense, you know what I mean? So yeah, the thing that actually meets them where they are and helps them feel into their wisdom and to feel resourced and regulated is going to give them to me, is going to give them access to clarity.
00:33:46:06 - 00:34:21:21
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. You know, I think for, for me, it was helpful to see that some of my, what I was labeling as procrastination or lack of motivation or would show up as like second guessing over perfecting something like all of those more and more have it's been clear to me that if I just hold the question of what if that's irrelevant and I'm just avoiding it, a feeling or a particular experience, I keep moving in that direction, you know, whatever that is.
00:34:21:21 - 00:34:47:09
Unknown
And so I've gotten way more wisdom and insight by, you know, not, you know, by just saying, okay, I'm going to go, I'm going to engage anyway. I'm going to do the thing anyway and, and deal with the feelings that come along with it or the, you know, like, I, I had a program that I was sharing earlier in the year, and I was so excited about it.
00:34:47:09 - 00:35:04:08
Unknown
And I've probably shared this before because it was one of those moments. And, as soon as it was done, it was like, I it worked on. It was invitation only. It was a, you know, all this stuff. Soon as it was done, I, didn't do. All of a sudden I was like, yeah, I'm going to share it.
00:35:04:08 - 00:35:30:05
Unknown
And so, like, I went to bed and woke up the next morning was like, I didn't share it. I didn't tell, you know, like and it was like two weeks now in that two weeks, what so funny is I knew something was up like I, you know, it's not as if just I didn't feel like I no longer want to do it, but it looked like what I would watch is my mind would like, say, I might not be giving people enough time.
00:35:30:05 - 00:36:06:03
Unknown
Oh, you know, I need to perfect it more. Is it really you know? So I kept trying to tweak or get some kind of assurance in myself and, and then I and then I went to kind of the psychological I'm like, is something wrong with me? Right. It's like I'm, I sabotage you, you know, like it was like this mystery, but I still wasn't hitting send still and then and I, I'm sure I lost a couple days just sort of in the, you know, mud of, maybe this isn't meant to be either, you know, like, I just kind of the thing we do.
00:36:06:03 - 00:36:33:15
Unknown
But then it was in talking to a good friend that she kind of, you know, in that conversation, it was like, I know what your opportunity for growth here, like everything you are, sort of have the possibility to evolve. Not everything, but what you have, the possibility to evolve inside yourself, to be able to shift the direction of your work, to kind of show up for your clients in this way requires brand new.
00:36:33:17 - 00:36:58:20
Unknown
It's an evolution. You know, you're bringing what you know, but it is unfamiliar territory. And so it's in hitting the sand that you're going to discover more of who you are and more what you're made for. And kind of be willing to feel the feeling that you may send it and you may never hear anything back. You may send it and it won't work.
00:36:58:21 - 00:37:26:02
Unknown
You may send it, and no one will be as interested as you are, you know. And so it was just kind of, one and then I was able to see like, oh yeah, by not just sitting with, what do am I avoiding by not hitting send, you know, just in that place I sort of uncovered like, oh yeah, I somehow, you know, revert it to my validation is on how people receive this.
00:37:26:02 - 00:37:45:16
Unknown
You know, my, my future in like everything was all this sudden linked to it, but I wasn't consciously aware of all that. Yeah. So I just sat in that moment was like, oh, okay. And then it was like all of a sudden I could hit send because it was like, yeah. And what I love about that too, Barb is the resonance, right?
00:37:45:16 - 00:38:09:10
Unknown
When your friend reflected that back to you, resonance is what showed you there was truth in it. Yeah that's true. Right. The resonance and the resonance. Like, I really wish people could trust the resonance more because there's so much wisdom in it. And sometimes people will point something to me that doesn't resonate. And I want to trust that equally, you know?
00:38:09:12 - 00:38:35:23
Unknown
Yeah. But I love what you're pointing to, especially because your podcast is called In Reverse. It's like, to me, we're on a frontier. Yeah. If you looked at this time in humanity, we are like baby birds, like flying into this next chartered, unchartered territory, you know? And there's so much innovation happening. There's so many new insights, there's so much unfolding that we can't predict.
00:38:35:23 - 00:39:03:13
Unknown
And to me, it's exciting to get more in touch with our wisdom and our resonance and what feels true. And I'm thinking of the the last person I had thought of to share about was someone who technically is in a low position hierarchically, and the level of story that comes up about being able to create the level of change that she is absolutely poised to make because of her gifts and her intellect, she has to strip away the conditioning of hierarchy.
00:39:03:14 - 00:39:33:14
Unknown
She can't continue with that same conditioning because she she's already leading leaders, but she's leading leaders, like really at the highest level with a junior title. And the conditioning is the only thing that's making it look like something might be off. Yeah. Right. So it's like when we're going into this unchartered space, the old stories and the limiting beliefs and the conditioning from the past, it just won't work in this new sphere, you know?
00:39:33:14 - 00:39:51:22
Unknown
Eve. So even like you're saying, when you're going into this new evolution, of course it's going to feel uncomfortable. But to know what that feeling actually feels like in the body, to be able to trust that we can lean into it, I think is really exciting. I mean, to me, that's what lay to me up, is to know that feeling, what it is.
00:39:52:00 - 00:40:24:04
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, it makes me think of Amy Johnson, who we both know as a colleague and a friend, and she just put on a few months ago a like six week class or something. Sorry, Amy. I'm sure I'm not saying it exactly right, but it was about restlessness. And when she was sharing about it, knowing that, you know, I, I, I'm hearing this, you know, sort of not in the midst of it, but really just can we it resonated for me because I can get really restless.
00:40:24:06 - 00:40:50:00
Unknown
And when I'm restless, I'm like, I get active. And the invitation was to be with the restlessness and then see what's underneath that, because like all experience, it's fluid and it will move on. And if we can hang out in that and be with the uncomfortableness, not the story of it, yes, but just the sensation of it, you can drop in and and in my mind, I don't know.
00:40:50:00 - 00:41:16:21
Unknown
I'm not an expert in the nervous system, so you can say. But it to me, that's what resets the nervous system is the more comfortable we get just being with ourselves in a felt way and allowing those sensations rather than trying to override them, fix them, understand them cognitively. That then where we sort of realize like, oh yeah, we can handle the full range of the human experience, I can handle more of the experience.
00:41:16:21 - 00:41:38:07
Unknown
And then we're naturally willing to try new things, to say what's true for us. You know, those happen naturally when we aren't to your point, earlier, like in vigilance, when the nervous system is not in vigilance around something. Yes, I think that's a huge, huge part of it. And, you know, that's when I just saw they're all pointing to the same thing, right?
00:41:38:07 - 00:42:04:10
Unknown
Spiritually they could say experiences coming and going, but I maybe I just was, slower, I don't know, it was like I needed the skill of being in the body and not being. What does it mean to not be frightened of my experience? What does that actually feel like? What does that look like for me? I needed that because I think probably because of the trauma I had early on, I was just so used to really quickly, like coming out of my body, you know?
00:42:04:15 - 00:42:32:04
Unknown
And I love what you're saying. There's so much of welcoming the experience so that we can actually see it for what it is versus what our mind is making of it. Yeah. And I think people want to experience more of the aliveness or the connection or the feeling from nature of life. But part of that means do we allow ourselves to drop into that, you know, and it's not just the good ones, it's all of it, you know?
00:42:32:04 - 00:42:56:02
Unknown
And I think the only thing that makes the ones we might label is more challenging is our thinking about them, you know, versus or our conditioning about it or memory, you know. Yeah. And I, I want to just say, well, you know, like me too in the sense of from a very early age, very, very young age, I learned to be observant.
00:42:56:04 - 00:43:17:16
Unknown
Like, you walk in a room, you check out what's going on here, who's what do I need to do? How do you know? How does this now that has turned into, like, a huge asset in my work means able to really tuning in and listen and, you know, see multiple things all going on at once. It's been a huge asset in my work.
00:43:17:17 - 00:43:37:05
Unknown
And on a personal level, it has kept me a little bit removed. Yeah, at times. And so yeah, in my own desire to want to be more in life, in the aliveness, the connection, intimacy, love, joy, all of it, it has meant I've got to like me too. Oh, yeah. I have a habit of jumping to my mind.
00:43:37:05 - 00:43:55:21
Unknown
Can I just be in this body? Can I be in the sensation of life? Yeah. And what I love about that part that you're pointing to, Barb, is like, I say this a lot to people recently, so I feel like I've been seeing it more and more is like every thing, every every strength also has shadow. Every light also has a shadow to it.
00:43:55:23 - 00:44:17:15
Unknown
And when I think about what said banks was pointing to in terms of insecure thought and that it's coming from thought, right? I just really like that we can tell the difference between the light in the shadow more easily. It's like if I had to really clearly say, when I'm helping people do, it's to see that difference more easily sooner and for me, more in in embodied ways.
00:44:17:15 - 00:44:41:23
Unknown
So it's not like an intellectual insight, but it's like, no, I see this is true. I can move forward with this knowing that this is truth, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I, I love that. I mean, I think it's, it's like on a, the truth of all life or a deeper truth. Truth. Yes. You know, I agree we're like these multi-dimensional beings that have these human experiences.
00:44:41:23 - 00:45:13:04
Unknown
Part of the humanness is conditioning and, going up and down in feelings and moods and all of that. And yet what is and we experience, thought and thought is shaping how we see it and perceive it. Like that's all true. Like, and what's also true is I'm where I'm at on the journey. Yes. And you know, and sometimes I am so compelled or I am completely blind to those patterns and places.
00:45:13:04 - 00:45:39:19
Unknown
Yeah. Keep me spinning. And so yeah, like incorporating the body or the nervous system to hold it all lightly, but to look in that direction has been really a value to me too. Yeah. And I love that we all get to say the same thing. That to me is true for everybody. Like, it just is. It's a, it's a discovering each moment and that's the way it goes, you know, and we can get more comfortable with that.
00:45:39:19 - 00:46:03:19
Unknown
Yeah. Well I have loved this conversation and I just want to give you a chance to leave before we close. Is there anything else that's present for you that you haven't had a chance to share or say, or that you'd like to? My main thing is like, if people feel like they have this call to do something bigger in their life, whether it's even as a matter, you know, like whether it's as a mom or a CEO, to me, it really doesn't matter.
00:46:03:19 - 00:46:24:00
Unknown
It's like it is. That call shows you that it's truth. And I wish that that message could get to as many people as possible, because we really could use people stepping into their truth. More and more, these days. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you. Appreciate you too. Thanks, Barb.
00:46:24:00 - 00:46:41:01
Unknown
As always, thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed this podcast, it would mean a lot to us. If you could take a moment to first subscribe and follow wherever you like to listen to podcasts. Hitting the follow button means you'll never miss a show. All you have to do is hit the plus sign in the upper right hand corner, or click on follow.
00:46:41:04 - 00:47:01:21
Unknown
While you're there. If you like what you're hearing, we'd appreciate you taking a moment to give us a shout out and review. Most importantly, however, if you know anyone that would benefit from this episode, please pass it along. And finally, if you'd like to learn more about my work in Reverse Academy or upcoming events, you can check out my website at Barbara patterson.com.
00:47:01:21 - 00:47:13:16
Unknown
You'll find some great resources, classes and videos, and a lot more. Thank you again for being here. See you next time.