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The voice of the American Consortium for Equity in Education at ace-ed.org | Host Larry Jacobs facilitates rich discussions with innovative educators, thought leaders, authors and the leaders within the education industry to promote equity, access and opportunity for every student in every school.
I'm David Cicero, and this
is Education Talk Radio.
For generations, most families sent
their kid to the school assigned to
them, but today, more families are
actively comparing options and asking
whether a different school might
better meet their child's needs.
But what causes families to begin
looking elsewhere in the first place?
What are they hoping to find?
And as families gain more power to
decide what makes a school worth
choosing, how should education leaders
think differently about quality, trust,
and the purpose of their schools?
Today, we're exploring those
questions with Alyssa Jakes St.
Pierre with the National School
Choice Awareness Foundation.
Alyssa works with partners across
the country to help families
navigate their K12 education options.
Alyssa, thanks for joining me today.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited for the conversation.
Me too.
So I wanna kinda just start
straight from the top.
What really causes a family to
begin looking beyond the school
their child is currently attending?
That's a great question.
And you know, one of the things
we're seeing is that choosing a
school really is just a normal
part of parenting at this point.
So the same way that a parent chooses
a summer camp or a new bike, it's
just what parenting looks like now.
And so we're finding that there are
normal reasons, the just regular life
change reasons, moving, for example,
that parents are switching schools,
and just also parents might want
something different with curriculum.
Some parents have cited safety concerns.
Some parents just want an option that
might better align to their family values.
And so there isn't a singular
reason why parents are switching.
It really is individual
and up to the family.
I mean, so what you're saying really
is that it, it may not be a particular
event or a particular thing that prompts
it, it's just that they understand,
and correct me if I'm wrong, they
just kinda understand their options.
They understand that they now have sort of
that authority to be involved in that way,
and so they're exercising that authority?
Yeah.
I think that's a really
great way to put it.
Parents now have more agency
than ever before to choose a
new or different option, and
they're exercising that agency.
Yeah So when they're, when they start
looking elsewhere, what do you see in your
experience in terms of the differences
they're usually trying to find?
Yeah.
So some parents cite school safety, for
example, as one of their top concerns,
and so they might be looking for st-
for options that are closer to home,
that have more family communication.
Other parents cite academics as one
of their options, or one of their
reasons for choosing, and so they
might value a type of curriculum, so
thinking about STEM or arts or some
of the magnet programs that exist.
Parents also think about, uh, the school
culture, and so for thinking, thinking
about how their child is treated in
the classroom day to day, and whether
or not their child feels safe and
supported and is generally having a good
experience throughout the school day.
And so it really depends on the family,
it depends on the child, depends on the
parent, it depends on the community.
But what we're seeing is, again,
families exercising that agency
and being able to recognize when an
option isn't working for whatever
reason, and undertaking the process
of looking for something different.
Yeah.
It, it kind of led me to, to,
to start wondering about what a
good school means, to be honest.
Mm.
And so as ⦠It kinda seems that as
the growth of school choice broadens,
I'm really wondering what you're
seeing in terms of how families
interpret what a good school is.
Hmm.
This is, this is a really great
question because it's also highly
individualized as well, which you'll
find will probably be the answer to
many questions during this conversation.
But families interpret a good school
in a variety of different ways.
For example, families might interpret
academics as what makes a good school.
Families might interpret community
feeling and just how involved
the adults are in the children's
lives as what makes a good school.
Families might interpret, uh, cultural
relevance and having seen their
culture represented in the day-to-day
in the environment as part of what
makes a good or quality school.
And so one of the things we really
encourage parents is to figure out,
you know, what is important to them
and ask those questions when they tour
schools so that they can figure out
for them and their child what would
make this environment work for them.
There's always a conversation, I think,
around whether or not ratings help or
hurt how parents decide, and one of
the conversations I've always had with
one of my colleagues is, you know, a
school could be rated a D school in the
neighborhood, but they might have A high
percentage of teachers that represent
the culture of that neighborhood.
And so for a parent who chooses that
school, a good school or a quality school
is one where their culture is represented,
and then they can supplement the academic
piece outside of the classroom, right?
And so for parents really thinking about,
you know, what is it that we value?
What is it that my child needs as well?
And what is available for them if, for
example, academics are not something
that, or is something that I might
need to supplement outside of school?
Does the growth of school choice suggest
that families and school systems have
different ideas of what children need
most from educations or from education?
Or is it the idea that perhaps
the, the district that they're in
is just not providing the type of
personalized experience that, that
the parent thinks the child needs?
Hmm.
I think what we're, what
we're seeing is that families
Ha- in having more agency around designing
their child's educational experience,
recognize that one type of option might
not work for every child and might
not work for that child K through 12.
So the growth of school choice, what
we're really seeing is, you know,
families who are exercising their
agency to pick new or different options,
but then also piece together what
might be missing in their normal day.
And so even just within families that
have multiple children, for example,
you see multiple choice options.
So for example, I went to private
school for most of my life.
My brother went to our traditional
public school, and that's because
we had two different needs.
And so I think it's less about, you
know, that one choice fitting that
child's need 100% of the time and more
about how parents, when recognizing
that there might be something that needs
to be additive, how they can use the
current choice ecosystem to create that
personalized experience for their child.
I'm, I'm curious as to what, what
I would call turnover looks like.
I don't really understand the
extent to which a, a parent can
evaluate or what those tools are
they can use to evaluate a school.
So I'm wondering, you know, are
you seeing, "Oh, I've chosen
this school for my child.
Well, that didn't work out.
And next year I might be
looking for something else."
Um, does that happen fairly often
where a child might jump between
multiple schools over time?
Or do, do families typically pick
the first or maybe the second, and
the child kind of sticks with it?
Yeah.
So I think depending on the
family, you see a bit of both.
I don't have the data in front
of me, but I can get that to you.
One of the things that we have seen,
however, is that families do go
back and forth where it is possible.
So for example, if I have a child in
elementary school, perhaps that elementary
school works for my family at K through 5.
And, but for middle school, I
need a STEM-centered program.
And so we see families who then switch
to perhaps a magnet program or a
charter program at, for middle school
and then switch back for high school.
And so you also see it Other
way, the other way around, right?
Like, families who might have done
homeschooling early on realize that
there's a limit for, you know, how much
they would like to be responsible for.
And so as the child gets older,
they decide to opt back in to the
traditional public school system.
And so there is a lot of fluidity in
terms of parents and their choices or
families and their choices, and I think
that's one of the great things about
the school choice ecosystem, at least
when everyone is collaborative, is
that it allows for families to realize
that as your child grows, their needs
cha- as your child grows, their needs
change, and there is a, there's an
option or a choice that can fit your
child at the moment that they need it.
Is there an age or a, a grade level
where this kinda tails off, where you
see maybe families exercising school
choice more when children are very young
versus when they're in middle school?
What does that look like?
From the data I've seen, it, as
the child gets older, families tend
to be more set in their choices.
I think a large part of that is
You know, you're trying to assess
what makes the most sense for your
family when your child is younger.
I also think as children get older,
high school, for example, there's
more independence that comes with
high school, and also, um, community.
Community bonds are
important for older children.
And so yeah, we're seeing as
they get older, their school
choices seem to be more set.
Well, yeah, it would m- it
kinda makes sense now that I'm
thinking about it because it's
school choice is a family choice.
When the child is very young, you
know, they, they may not have, uh, of
course they have a voice, they always
have a voice, but it's different.
Right?
If I'm 14 years old, I'm probably much
more vocal about whether or not I wanna
change or ⦠So when I'm, if, if, if
I'm a district leader and I'm, and I'm
listening to this, uh, maybe a public
school district leader or, um, serving
families in, in my community, what
assumptions about families or enrollment
do you think school leaders need to
reconsider as choice continues to grow?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think the first thing we've already
talked about a bit is just that choosing a
school is now a normal part of parenting.
And so if we treat, uh, you know,
children, families picking a new or
different option as a crisis every
single time it happens, that's just
a lot of energy that's expended that
could be probably better used elsewhere.
And so the first is just reframing the
fact that this is just part of parenting.
The second, I think, is understanding
what you don't know, essentially.
And to be able to understand the shift in
parent expectations, I always recommend
you just talk to parents directly, right?
Talk to the families who might have
picked a different choice outside of
the traditional public school system.
Talk to the parents who have stayed inside
of the traditional public school system.
Go where the families are, including
places that you wouldn't normally go.
If you have a high rural
population, for example Go talk.
Go to where the rural families are and
talk to them, um, because I think it's,
it's, it's important to understand why
they made the choice that they made.
And, you know, you can survey
parents, but a conversation
really tells you the reason.
And so for education leaders who are
thinking about parent expectations,
the first is just, like, not
assuming that you know why a family
made the choice that they made.
Go and talk to them.
Yeah.
What about those families that, that
their child never attended the school?
Like, it makes sense to me if my child
attending were unhappy and now we're
switching, I could totally see, uh, a
school staff member or, or district leader
saying, "Hey, you know, what's going on?
You know, let's, let's talk about this."
But, you know, how do I-- how does a
district leader understand, I guess,
what families in the community want
rega- regardless if their child ever
attended their district or not, right?
Those families we never see.
They just pass right by us, you know.
We, we never even sort of had a
chance to, to serve their child.
Yeah, this is another really great
question, and this is where collaboration
and community come into play.
I think what we're going to see as choice
continues to expand is that district
leaders, school leaders, education
leaders specifically needing to have a
pulse on what all the other options are
inside of their community and having
some kind of relationship with the,
the other choices that serve families
that they don't necessarily serve.
And so coming together and talking
to maybe your local homeschool co-op
or your micro school that opened up
down the block, or the principal of
the charter school, or the, they're
not called deans, whoever runs the
private school, um, the headmaster.
Being able to have conversations with
other education leaders that are outside
of your choice to better understand
fully what the education ecosystem is.
And I also think that this is a really
great opportunity to, if your state
has a navigator organization, also
building a relationship with that school
choice navigator because they'll also
have contact with the different school
leaders, and being able to approach those
conversations from a place of openness and
acceptance so that, and collaboration, so
you understand exactly what's happening
inside of your choice ecosystem.
That's a, that's a really
interesting, um, point, Alyssa.
Are you seeing this happen?
Are you seeing, um, school leaders,
district leaders collaborating with,
um, other schools in the ecosystem to,
to better understand just essentially
what the community's looking for?
Are you seeing this actually happening?
I've seen it on a smaller scale,
so leaders talking to one another
and trying to figure out, you know,
what does the ecosystem look like?
We've seen, for example, in Florida, some
type of course unbundling where they've
priced out the courses so that families
who are not inside of the traditional
public school district can purchase
courses to supplement their learning.
So thinking specifically about homeschool
and micro-school families, being
able to purchase courses a la carte
is incredibly helpful if there's a
subject that your child needs, right?
And so I think that on a small
scale, there are examples of
collaboration that's happening.
I think long-term, as school choice
continues to grow, there needs to be more
of this type of collaboration and more
of this openness and willingness for the
different types of choices that I think
historically have seen each other as
competition coming together to instead
collaborate to figure out, "Okay, what is
it that I uniquely offer in my choice that
no other choice in the ecosystem does,
and how can I work with the other choices
to supplement what I don't offer so that
there is a robust ecosystem for families?"
Right.
This is really a mindset shift, right?
It's kinda like as a district leader,
let's say, or even as any, as any school
leader in the ecosystem, it's not, you
know, we're the sole place where education
happens for children in the community.
It- I see it almost as a mindset shift
where we're looking at the student,
we're looking at the community.
What's best for the community, right,
overall, and how can we all come together
to provide what's best for the community?
Am I, am I kinda hitting it there?
Yeah.
This is 100% a mindset shift and being
able to move from feelings of resistance
or ambivalence even to just fully
accepting that this is where we are now.
And instead of, as my dad likes to say,
swimming against the tide, how do you
Go with the flow essentially, and figure
out how you can create more collaboration,
more creativity, more innovation
within the ecosystem because it'sâ¦
Like, you're gonna expend the same
amount of energy either way, and if
improving education for families is
your top goal, I feel like more of that
energy needs to be expended in the shift
towards just accepting this is happening,
and how can we actually ensure that
families now have a navigable system?
Yeah.
In those instances where you've seen,
um, you know, more collaboration,
you said you've seen it on a smaller
scale, what are some of those
benefits that come out of that, do
you think, that that could scale but
you're seeing on a smaller scale?
When schools in the ecosystem really
work together, they kind of tamper
down the resistance and they say,
"Okay, I'm open to saying I can
offer this, you can offer this."
What, what really comes out
of that that's beneficial?
The biggest benefit is that
students are fully supported.
I think, you know, for example, a
microschool family who is able to
microschool Monday through Wednesday,
and then Thursday their student
attends the local public school to
take an advanced math class, and
then Friday they're able to engage
in a local co-op with other students.
I think what we're seeing is that
there's more support for students
who recognize that 100% of their day
is not within one type of choice.
And we're also seeing that schools
can then really lean in to what,
what it is that they do really well.
And so they don't have to
be everything to everyone.
They can truly be, "I'm a micro
school for STEM," and the students'
humanities learning is provided
by another type of school.
And students don't have to trade or, yeah,
trade, um, the quality of instruction
that they're getting or the type of
instruction that they're getting.
They're able to truly tailor the
experience to what they need.
What does logistics actually look
like for something like that?
Like, as a parent, I, I don't exercise,
um, school choice, but I'm wondering
if we've got a student somewhere
Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday, then
somewhere else Thursday, and then maybe
Right?
Is it largely the parents
that are organizing how the
student is, uh, attending?
Yeah.
So logistics is one of the things
that, uh, I think will become a pol-
an important policy advancement as
choice continues to expand because
right now it really is on the parent
to figure out the logistics and the
in between and coordinate essentially
across all of these options.
And, you know, that is something
that we've seen in other markets.
So if you go down the rabbit hole
with me for a second, unbundling
happens in other markets, right?
So we've seen it with cable.
For example, cable
unbundled into streaming.
And with the plethora of options,
we now have to figure out a way
how to navigate and how to move
in between all of the different
streaming options that are available
to us, and it's kind of a headache.
And so for parents logistically, the
same thing is happening where they're
moving between ⦠Parents who choose
this unbundled option are moving between
all of these different options, and
logistically it can become a headache,
especially if, you know, you have
multiple children who are doing this kind
of education, this type of education.
And so logistically speaking, one of
the ways that I think the school choice
ecosystem can improve is by figuring out
how to make logistics an easier lift on
parents, especially as they continue to
navigate this increasingly complex system.
Thanks for joining us on Education Talk
Radio, a part of the B Podcast Network.
If there's a topic you'd like us to
tackle or have a guest idea, send me
a message at dciceroedutalk@gmail.com.
Thanks for listening, and
we'll see you next time.