[00:00:00] Arianna: Remember calling is a pro social behavior. It's when you're making a positive difference for others. So it's not this compulsion for yourself. It's compulsion for others.
[00:00:12] Michael: I am Michael Hyatt
[00:00:13] Megan: and I'm Megan Hyatt Miller.
[00:00:15] Michael: And you're listening to the double wind show.
[00:00:17] Megan: And we are. So excited today to share our recent conversation with Dr.
[00:00:22] Arianna Malloy. Um, this was such a fun conversation at you guys are going to love it all about healthy calling. That is her book. She is a professor of communication at Biola university, specializing in organizational communication and the study of meaningful work. And my goodness, is she an expert?
[00:00:41] Michael: I can't believe we haven't had this topic on before.
[00:00:43] Megan: And yet it is so central to so many insights, as I said, she has a book that is called healthy calling from toxic burnout to sustainable work. Um, there's linked to that in the show notes. You'll want to get that for sure. And she's really talking about sustainable success. [00:01:00] Um, for those who are driven by purpose and passion, which is you guys.
[00:01:03] So she's been featured in various academic and industry platforms, speaking on how to cultivate healthy boundaries in work that matters. And she's deeply involved in helping professionals navigate the pressures of modern work environments while maintaining their personal wellbeing. She's also a mom of a six year old.
[00:01:20] She is an active professor. As I said, an author, she's married, she's a runner. Um, she has a new cat that we heard about at the beginning that we actually saw a very cute cat. Anyway, you guys will love this high energy and vulnerable conversation with Arianna.
[00:01:42] Welcome Arianna. We are so excited to talk to you today about the idea of healthy calling. This is going to be so much fun. I'm so glad to be here. And I was telling you before we started. Recording that our beloved Hannah Williamson, who is our content architect on [00:02:00] our team works for my husband, Joel. She, I think, got to be mentored by you, got to learn from you when she was in college at Biola university and just could not recommend you highly enough.
[00:02:11] So I'm really excited for our audience to hear from you today because we have never on this show dedicated an entire show to talking about calling.
[00:02:18] Michael: I can't believe it.
[00:02:19] Megan: We should be fired.
[00:02:20] Michael: But who would fire it?
[00:02:22] Megan: All right. I guess we're staying then. That's great. But seriously, we're so excited to talk about calling.
[00:02:27] And as we jump in, I'd love to know, how did you end up being, can I call you a calling researcher? Like, is that a thing? I love that. Yeah.
[00:02:40] Arianna: You know, um, I grew up in a home where we just talked about work at the dinner table. It was not separate from the rest of our lives, so it felt very integrative from the very beginning.
[00:02:50] My parents would talk about their work, they would ask me about my work as a student, they treated it like a job. Um, there's actually even, as a total tangent, this fantastic book called Whole [00:03:00] Brain Child. Yes, I'm familiar. And when I had a son, I was reading about how like play to kids is work. I mean, we were sort of hardwired to be purposeful creatures.
[00:03:09] So I think from the get go, I've been fascinated by it. And then in different experiences as an intern and first job foundations and different experiences that I've had in work, I was fascinated by the way Transcribed People talk about work, how they experience it, and then how that communication about work sort of served as a compass to guide their further experiences of work.
[00:03:32] Now, in that research, I started off looking at meaningful work, work that was more than just functional, work that brought a sense of purposefulness to it. And then within that layer of research, I noticed a term. That was used a lot, which was calling. And I thought, interesting, you know, what do people mean when they talk about that?
[00:03:51] So thus began my exploration and I've looked into the bright side and the dark side, and it's really fun. Cause you know, similar to anything else, like when you're shopping for a new [00:04:00] car, let's say you want a red car everywhere you go when you're shopping for that car. What do you see? Yeah. Red car. Yeah.
[00:04:05] And so in the same way, you know, now as I'm studying calling, I see it on billboards and car commercials and everywhere. I mean, it's, it's everywhere.
[00:04:12] Megan: Wow. So is calling something that is for everybody or is it kind of like a luxury thing that we only get to talk about if we're, you know, at a level of affluence that makes it accessible?
[00:04:25] Like we're independently wealthy.
[00:04:26] Michael: That was literally the question I was going to ask. Oh,
[00:04:28] Megan: really? I thought you were going to ask. Okay.
[00:04:30] Arianna: All right. Well, there you go. I'm so glad you asked that. So just to be clear where I'm coming from when I'm talking about calling, I'm a Christian. And so as a Christian, I feel like all of us are called to love God and love others and really is.
[00:04:41] Human beings to the basic, good flourishing value is to be good to others. And so I think that's something that we all have the opportunity and the invitation to do. Now, within that, I think there's also certain things in our lives that allow us to use our skill sets and our passions [00:05:00] combined in a unique way that feels a little bit like what Adam Grant would call flow.
[00:05:05] So there's this idea that we're experiencing something that feels not effortless. But almost joyful now the difference between flow and calling by the way is that calling involves community? So there are four things that distinguish work as a calling if we're talking about work as a way to experience calling The first is that it it feels meaningful.
[00:05:25] So it's You're not just flipping the switch on and off, you find meaning behind that. Like, when I turn the switch on, the light goes on and people can see. That's meaningful. The second thing is that there is an identified caller. Now, you might experience that as God. You could identify that as of the voice inside of you, the universe.
[00:05:44] I interviewed a musician who felt like his guitar. had been calling him since he was a boy. Wow. So there are different moments, but there's this distinct sort of communicative interaction that, you know, as a communications scholar, um, I love pointing to that, that there is a [00:06:00] dynamic relationship happening at the get go between you and that sense of color.
[00:06:04] The third thing is that passion and skill set, and the combination is really important because we all know it feels good to be good at stuff, right? But that's not a long term motivation, that's short term. If you're only good at it, like I'm pretty good at event planning, I don't love it. It does not ignite my soul.
[00:06:21] It's not something that gives me joy. I don't think about it when I'm like brushing my teeth for fun. So in addition to being good at something, which is short term, you have to love it. Now it's not enough to love it. You do need to acquire the skill set for it. And again, this is an apprenticeship mode.
[00:06:38] So you think about someone who's called to be a surgeon. They don't just magically say, Oh, I'm called to be a surgeon. I'm going to walk into that surgery room. Let me go. You know, you don't do that. That would be negligence. So you have to have a sense of equipping. So. Purposefulness, an identified caller, passion and skill set.
[00:06:56] But the fourth thing, and this is what makes it really distinct, is that [00:07:00] calling involves community. Pro social behavior is what we would call it in the social sciences, where you are helping make A positive difference in the lives of others, which is both the thing that's igniting you like, Oh my gosh, I'm sensing this need and I can help fill it.
[00:07:17] And it's the thing that can really cause that sense of calling, which is so bright and good to actually get a little dark and toxic.
[00:07:25] Michael: You know, it's interesting because there are a lot of jobs that seem menial, perhaps mechanical, where people are disassociated from the meaning. But I was talking to one of my coaching clients the other day who happened to be a dentist.
[00:07:39] And I said, well, what is it that you do? And, you know, he said, well, I fix teeth basically.
[00:07:43] Megan: And I
[00:07:43] Michael: said, does that energize you? And he said, not really. I'm kind of looking at making an exit. And I said, I don't think you're fixing teeth. I said, I think you're instilling confidence. And giving people the ability to connect with other people without thinking about themselves to be more other centered.[00:08:00]
[00:08:00] And like he lit up, like that was a whole new thought to him. So is that the kind of thing you're talking about?
[00:08:04] Arianna: Absolutely. And just to circle back to answer your other question. Yeah, it is a privilege to have the support. To pursue your calling, but that sense of calling is available to anyone, anywhere.
[00:08:15] I've interviewed people who are beauticians behind a makeup counter, similar to what you were just talking about, who actually feel like, when I help someone feel beautiful, Their whole life has changed. You can interview someone who cleans a hospital rooms. I've interviewed a bunch of people all in different stages of hospital care.
[00:08:32] And when they feel like they are making that room clean for the next person who is exhausted and hurting, that can feel like a calling. But yeah, so what you just talked about, that's job crafting, right? And so sometimes just finding that sense of calling is reframing the work you're already doing, locating that purpose behind it.
[00:08:51] And when you do. This is a
[00:08:53] Michael: big idea because I think there are a lot of people that think they're stuck in a meaningless job, but they really just need to [00:09:00] reframe it and maybe extend. Their horizon a little bit to see the secondary and tertiary effects of what their work does or allows.
[00:09:08] Megan: Yeah, that's great.
[00:09:09] It reminds me of years ago, there's a video on, you can probably find it on YouTube, that Chick fil A produced. And I think it's something like, Every Life Has a Story. I don't know if you've ever seen that. It's like we're just, if you haven't seen this to describe it, it's like you go into a Chick fil a and you see that the workers at Chick fil a talking with the customers and they're these little bubbles that pop up that tell you a little bit about their story, like just diagnosed with cancer, lost his wife three months ago.
[00:09:38] just sent her daughter off to her first day of kindergarten, just found out he lost his job, like basically real common, but human stories. And the people at Chick fil A were able to exercise their calling of seeing those people, you know, and that was the point of the video was. Um, and I think we would all agree that, um, I think it's really important for us to realize that the people you're serving chicken nuggets to or [00:10:00] chicken sandwich to are real people with a story.
[00:10:01] And if you can really see them and not just think of them as a customer, but as a person that transforms the work that you're doing, but it also transforms their experience. Um, and I think we would all agree that. If you go to a Chick fil A, it's not your ordinary fast food restaurant, you know?
[00:10:15] Arianna: 100%. I've had the pleasure of working with Chick fil A as well, and you can tell by interacting with them that they treat every encounter like an opportunity to see another person.
[00:10:24] Yeah. They recognize the personhood of each, each one. And you know, in fact, we had wildfires recently in California, in Southern California. And In N Out also, Does the same kind of a thing. They had these signs on the door when the fires were raging that any first responder or firefighter could get a free meal.
[00:10:40] They began honoring the personhood of the people that entered into the door. And you can just tell it's a different place. I love that.
[00:10:46] Michael: How was our idea of work and calling? Changed over the last hundred years.
[00:10:51] Arianna: Oh, that's a great question. So there's a really fantastic book called make your job a calling by two vocational psychologists Ryan Dick and Brian Duffy and [00:11:00] they Trace the different ways that we experience work as a calling all the way back to the Greco Roman times actually And so it used to be that work was intellectual that those who had the privilege of not having to use their hands were, you know, quote unquote, closer to God.
[00:11:16] And then we moved into the renaissance where to create. meant to emulate that sense of connection to the heavenly, to experience calling was to actually use your hands. And then you get into all the different reformations. Martin Luther was a huge mover in the shift of saying, Hey, feeling like. Work is a calling is not just for the monks and the nuns and those who are a reclusive, it's actually for everybody.
[00:11:42] But then you get into St. Augustine and John Calvin and all of these other folks who say, it's not just grow where you're planted, which I do appreciate that. But I think sometimes when we use that phraseology, we miss an important thing. And that is we have specific skill sets
[00:11:58] Megan: that
[00:11:58] Arianna: if we are brave [00:12:00] enough.
[00:12:00] To locate and seek development in, we will actually experience a greater sense of passion and fulfillment in work. So to answer your question, I mean, it's been around. It just depends on who is deemed as having accessibility to that.
[00:12:14] Michael: This is like a little bit of a departure, but do you think. that the rise of AI will enable human flourishing and for humans to focus on what they do best, or do you think it's a potential threat to that?
[00:12:28] Arianna: Ooh, I think it's a both and. Now I will confess, I'm going to make a confession to you. Are you guys ready? We're ready. We're ready. I'm a little bit reticent about AI. I'm not anti AI. I think it's great. I think people need to speak into it who Who want to help shift and change what's being used. But to me, it feels a bit like I wish that people had to get a driver's license in AI before they could use it, because I think that what I'm seeing in college in particular is that we're using AI like a Google search [00:13:00] engine, but there's a fuzzy line between.
[00:13:02] Brainstorming and creating for us. And if we don't maintain the intellectual, emotional intelligence, that's required for just, you know, stretching those muscles, then I think we let it think for us now, if we let it use it as assistance, that's great. So I have a friend who just went to Oxford. And she wanted to surprise her husband with a really cool, like, experiencing Oxford thing.
[00:13:25] So she submitted into AI, like, can you make a, a scavenger hunt of all these cool places in Oxford? And it did that. Wow. That's a great use of AI. I do see though, that students, especially in classes, like I teach a research methods class, they don't know how to come up with their own ideas. So I'm a little bit.
[00:13:44] Thoughtful on a good day about how we're seeking to use AI, but I don't think it's all bad. I'm not sure. I think it's all good either.
[00:13:51] Megan: Yeah,
[00:13:52] Arianna: that's
[00:13:52] Michael: fair answer.
[00:13:53] Megan: I appreciate that. Let's talk about overwork, workaholism and burnout. Those are two things you talk [00:14:00] a lot about in your book Healthy Calling, and I think that is very much In the, the conversation that we're having with our community about winning at work and succeeding at life, the double win, because so often one of the biggest things that keeps people from attending to the rest of their life from ultimately flourishing is that they're giving a disproportionate amount of their time to work in a way that they don't have anything left in terms of their attention, their time, their energy, For life outside of work.
[00:14:30] So talk about those ideas of burnout and workaholism and how they work against our expression of our calling,
[00:14:36] Arianna: by the way, I love the double win idea. I just think that's fantastic because it is a whole person thing that we're talking about. Yes. Work and life are always going to be connected, whether we want it to be or not, and so we have to pay attention to both sides.
[00:14:48] So I just think that's fantastic. Yeah. So research shows. Data backs up that if you feel a sense of calling or that beautiful meaningfulness at work, you're the person they want in the room. You're the one who stays [00:15:00] after, who signs up for more, who says yes, who influences the group with positivity and strategy, and you're able to withstand organizational change, societal change.
[00:15:10] You're the person! But, In the same way of all the people groups that approach work, whether it's a work job or a career or a calling, if you feel like your work is a calling, you're the most prone to burnout by far. Does that surprise you? Yeah. No.
[00:15:28] Megan: It surprises me a little bit because I think that sometimes what we encounter, and maybe this is, It's what you're about to tell us, but there, there can be kind of an addictive quality to overwork that feels like it's not about what it's about.
[00:15:41] Right. And rather than like a joy, like when I think of calling, I like the word joy just is the word that comes to mind. And sometimes I think it's not so much about joy. It's just. Numbing. Sure. So workaholism
[00:15:53] Arianna: and burnout from people who don't feel like work is a calling is a thing. And that is a self, like, I can control this.
[00:15:59] This is [00:16:00] controllable. Everything else in my life does not feel controllable. I get my worth from this. And then all of a sudden burnout can happen and it's like, I do not like this anymore. You find yourself sitting in your car, you know, scrolling social media. You've scrolled social media. So then you scroll through your calendar and then you open up your physical calendar, right?
[00:16:15] Because you know, double when we have these physical calendars. And so you, you, you, you filter through that when you're done with that, you still don't want to get out of your car. So you look through your tasks and when you're done with that, you just kind of sit there and burnout can include depression, anxiety, apathy, cynicism.
[00:16:29] It impacts relationships. Those are all bad things. Burnout from a calling or workaholism and job idolization from a calling are different. So burnout from a calling is not just, I don't like what I'm doing anymore. It's, I don't know who I am anymore. And it's framed with a sense of deep shame because remember calling.
[00:16:50] is a pro social behavior. It's when you're making a positive difference for others. So it's not this compulsion for yourself. It's compulsion for others. [00:17:00] So the burnout happens when you see this great need and you know, if you don't do this, someone could get hurt. When I've done some work with hospital executives, they're like, Hey, if people take a day off, people die, you know?
[00:17:11] So it's not, it's not so easy. There's a lot of. Folks who feel that need and that pressure and they know if they don't respond, or at least they think they know, if they don't respond, truly bad things happen. And so workaholism in that regard is a particular kind of addictive behavior that stuffs down all these other feelings so that you're working to avoid the bad feelings from when you're not doing it.
[00:17:37] Huh. And in partnership with that, there's job idolization. And here, it's not so much addictive behavior, it's when your work becomes the greatest priority of your life and you make every other decision to show up for your family or not, to show up for yourself in that morning workout or not, to show up to go to sleep or not, based on work rather [00:18:00] than the people in your life.
[00:18:02] So both of those things. shift that burnout, which is regular burnout from, I don't like what I'm doing anymore to, I don't know who I am anymore. And that is a toxic kind of burnout that let me be clear happens with so much shame. It is so hard to talk about because, Oh my gosh, if you don't feel called anymore, have you done something wrong?
[00:18:23] Has it impacted the way you know yourself, the caller or the community? And so it's really complicated.
[00:18:29] Michael: This is so fascinating and such an interesting distinction because I've talked with. Leaders, high achievers, and they'll often tell me, I'll say, do you have any hobbies? Because I kind of use that as almost a litmus test.
[00:18:42] Of whether there's any semblance of balance and more often than not, they will say to me, my work is my hobby. We've heard
[00:18:50] Megan: that. So, I mean, if we've heard that once, we've heard it a thousand times. And
[00:18:52] Michael: I totally get it because I love my work and I am prone to overwork as Megan will tell you. And the reason that full [00:19:00] focus exists is because of my own struggle with this, but this is not in the distant past.
[00:19:05] This is something I'm facing. Sort of in the daily arena of my life because I really do love what I do and that kind of leads me to the question. What's the role of boundaries? I know you talk about that in the book. What's the role of boundaries here so that we can protect what's, you know, sacred, but make room for.
[00:19:24] Other things that are sacred.
[00:19:25] Arianna: Yeah. So good. And I, I completely hear you and I feel the same. I think when you love what you do, it's really hard to not want to do it. You know, it's like, it's fun. It's great. It's purposeful. It feels good. It's like, Oh yes, do more. So again, it's not coming from a bad feeling.
[00:19:40] It's coming from a good feeling. And so we want to protect that and actually. To learn how to rest well, to learn how to have good boundaries actually protects that healthy sense of that calling. I'm smiling as you're talking because I remember interviewing this one doctor who is just a delightful human being, older gentleman, and [00:20:00] kind of crotchety.
[00:20:00] And, um, he invited me into his office as I was interviewing him and I noticed on the wall There were all these pictures of his family and his grandkids and drawings. And the next to it was a certificate for Italian classes. And I asked him about it and he said, well, you know, the thing that keeps me grounded.
[00:20:16] The reason why I don't end up hating what I'm doing or burning out is that I have hobbies that are not related to my job. I take off my doctor coat and I become someone else. And so he's telling me that he started taking introduction to Italian classes at a community college. And in fact, he won most outstanding student and he was so proud that this framed certificate was next to his doctor's, you know, certificates.
[00:20:40] And so, you know, I think about myself, my husband and I, we go for runs. I'm not a real good runner, but we do half marathons and 10 Ks and it's just to do something else. And so it is important that work is not all that you have and all that you are, because guess what? At the end of the day, it's going to change and shift.
[00:20:59] And if we [00:21:00] make that with a closed hand, if we hold that with a closed hand, it's not going to go well.
[00:21:05] Michael: Arianna, in your life. What does this look like? Like what do boundaries look like? Do you have like a hard stop at the end of the day where you. You turn off the work and don't work on the weekends, what does it look like?
[00:21:14] You
[00:21:14] Megan: also have one child,
[00:21:15] Arianna: right? One
[00:21:16] Megan: son?
[00:21:16] Arianna: I have a wonderful, almost six year old, he'll be six, um, in March. I just adore him so much. I had no idea I would love my kid as much as I do. He's just a fun person to be around. Yeah, how do I do that? So I did not learn how to rest and have work boundaries until my PhD, to my doctorate program.
[00:21:33] My parents, taught me so much. There are people that I just want to know, even if I wasn't related to them. And I realized that's a great privilege, but they are my greatest counselors and I love them so much. They didn't teach me how to rest. You know, they were really hard workers and they worked a lot.
[00:21:46] They prioritized me, but we didn't have designated days off. And it wasn't until my doctorate program that I saw the unhealthiness of working too much, too long. I got food poisoning. I was real sick and I just thought I have to pull over. So for the [00:22:00] last about 12, 15 years, I've been taking a day off once a week, and it's complicated, right?
[00:22:05] When you're, if you're single and you're taking a day off, sometimes that can feel lonely. When my husband and I did not have a kid, it was easier, although we rest very differently, so we had to figure that out. And now with a child, it's different, but we take one day off a week, and what that means for us is we do not engage in technology.
[00:22:21] I'm one of those people that if there's a red dot on my phone I have to touch the red dot and get rid of it and my husband just talking about that million red dot Yeah,
[00:22:28] Michael: you can turn those off as it turns out. I know
[00:22:31] Arianna: but it drives me crazy But I need to see them too. So we um, we don't do that We have a box that we put our phones in and then um, I love that we take some Time to pray and we have pancakes.
[00:22:43] We stay in our pajamas and we do things that give us life. And anytime I'm thinking about work that day, I tend to strategize stuff. I honestly, I offer it up as a prayer to say, God, you're in charge of this. And I have a piece of paper that I'll write things down if something comes to mind, but I try not to focus on [00:23:00] it.
[00:23:00] Something else that I do, well two things I'll share. Um, I started doing this about six years ago. I go for a walk, a 30 minute walk, the day before we rest, by myself. We're close enough to the beach that I drive down to the beach and I walk. And I just think about what were my successes. in the past week?
[00:23:16] What were areas that I could have done better? What am I carrying with me in my heart and mind? And I just breathe and I look around and I notice the birds and the the world around me and it helps restore my orientation. The third thing that I do, and this is as a professor, I need to respond to my boss or my colleagues or my clients when I do consulting at different times, but with students, I can have clear boundaries.
[00:23:43] And so, I have a work email policy for students that says, I will respond to you from 8. 30 to 5. 30 Monday through Friday. If you email me after 5. 30 on Friday, you will not hear back from me until Monday at 8. 30. Because Work life wellness is a [00:24:00] habit. I want you to learn in college and I'm going to model that with you and for you.
[00:24:05] And so we talk about it throughout the entire semester. How's your work life wellness going? Are you resting? Cause guess what? College is a job. How are you resting in that process? And so we talk a lot about it.
[00:24:22] Michael: You know what's really interesting to me, technologically and Megan and I were talking about this earlier today, cause I'm writing an article on this, but. You know, with email, you have an out of office message. Rarely do the important things come in via email. It's usually text now.
[00:24:36] Arianna: Yes.
[00:24:37] Michael: And there's not, at least on Apple devices, there's not an out of office message.
[00:24:43] And I've got a friend, and I'm testing it now, he's written a A program that does that and it's really going to be cool, but I tried it for the first time this last weekend. And so if you message me after five o'clock on Friday, I said essentially what you say, I'll get back to you on Monday because I'm taking time [00:25:00] off to attend to the other parts of my life.
[00:25:02] But I thought there's probably a reason and maybe I'm just paranoid that the big tech companies. Don't want to put that because they want you active on your phone 24 7 and it's just not healthy
[00:25:14] Arianna: It's totally not healthy. And I love that. Please sign me up for that app because I will totally use it I've been talking to several friends of mine one who has a really high profile high intensity job but when she takes a break, she's like I don't know what to do because there's not a Someone, they need a response and you're right, texting is now the way people interact the most and I, I really wish we had that.
[00:25:35] That is a needed, that is a gap in the work wellness situation.
[00:25:39] Megan: I know there are people who are in our community who are listening to this and they're thinking, I don't know what my calling is. You know, maybe they're even successful in their work. You know, most of the people that we're talking to are, but they're not sure if that's their calling or they feel some kind of emptiness.[00:26:00]
[00:26:00] How do you practically speaking discern What your calling is, if you don't already know the answer to that question.
[00:26:07] Arianna: Yeah, that's such a good question. First of all, calling, really, and this is how I approach it, calling is a relationship with the caller. And so it's really relational and it's a relationship with yourself, the called, and it's a relationship with the community that you impact.
[00:26:20] And so focusing more on the relationships. Rather than grasping hold of this is my calling can sometimes be messier, but also more satisfying. So I would say first, who are the people that you love to be around or that you feel a need to help? Are there situations where you walk into the room and it's just clearer to you than it may be to other people?
[00:26:41] What's going on? Paying attention to those skill sets and passions. I'm a big fan of personality tests. They do not stress me out. I don't ever feel like they have to define me, but I love them. I can take them all day. I've never met one I didn't like. Yeah. So I would say that. I think that one thing I've been a big fan of recently is building your board.
[00:26:57] So finding a personal board of directors. [00:27:00] So thinking through the people in your life who, you know, three to five people who inspire you. I would encourage you to write down exactly what you respect about them. Questions you would want to ask them and then literally see if you could meet with them once a month or quarterly and say, Hey, I'd love to have you be someone I check in with.
[00:27:18] Um, and I think it needs to be more than one person because ultimately no one person has all the answers. No one human being and so having a personal board of directors. I actually teach my students in a class They create like a little portfolio of their personal board. Um, so I think that's really you guys are smiling.
[00:27:32] I love it It sounds
[00:27:34] Michael: so cool. I'm smiling for a different reason. I first of all, I absolutely love this idea But I'm very involved in AI and in a couple of AI communities. And there are people, this is a trend where people are creating AI virtual boards, where they'll put Steve Jobs on it and you know, whoever their heroes are.
[00:27:53] And then they will consult with the board on major decisions, but they want all those board members to respond as themselves. And I've seen some of the [00:28:00] output. It is astonishing what AI can do to take from that. I don't think it's as good as a real board, but that's a big idea. You
[00:28:08] Arianna: know, and I love that.
[00:28:09] And I love that you brought that up, because sometimes it feels like there's no one in your life that you could personally. Go to. And so I don't think it needs to be someone that, you know, um, I know for me in college, you know, CS Lewis is by far my most favorite author of all time. Jane Austen being my second.
[00:28:24] And so I remember going to the literature and seeking out wisdom from the council of authors. I think podcasts are another place to go for that. And so I don't think you have to be limited by people, you know, I think you pursue a personal board. Based on the things you want to learn and aspire to and you seek out wisdom from those places.
[00:28:46] Yeah.
[00:28:47] Michael: This is a big idea.
[00:28:48] Megan: Yeah. Okay. So say more though about discerning your calling, you know, for example, in your book, I remember right where I was when I was walking this morning and you were talking about the idea [00:29:00] of telling your students if they had a year where they didn't have to worry about.
[00:29:04] Their schoolwork or money or anything, what would they do? And that's kind of a little something that you can help to prompt you to think about what might be something that you would enjoy. But then you said, you know, now pretend as an adult that all of your expenses are paid for. You don't have to worry about anything.
[00:29:20] You have to do any work. Like, what would you spend your time on? And I love that because I had like all kinds of fun things coming to mind. I was like going to be in France. I was going to be in Italy. It was just basically food and gardens and art, you know, I don't know if that's just my fantasy or if that's something to do with my calling, but you know, I'd love for you to talk about that and anything else that just helps people to access it.
[00:29:42] Cause I think sometimes. When we're talking about calling, we're talking about people's hearts. And I think that we live in a world that is increasingly disembodied. It's increasingly spiritually disconnected. It's increasingly superficial [00:30:00] and It can be difficult to know yourself in that way. I
[00:30:03] Arianna: love that you brought that up.
[00:30:05] Um, by the way, they made me audition for the audio recording of the book, which actually was so much fun. Oh, how funny! I'm so grateful that I could do it. You're a great reader,
[00:30:11] Megan: by the way.
[00:30:12] Arianna: Oh, yeah, it was great. Thank you. Let me just say that work as a calling is not a requirement. You don't have to feel that calling in your work.
[00:30:21] It does make things more motivating, but it can also make things more complicated. And sometimes people pursue a job that is a career. They really like it, but they don't love it. And then they find something that's unpaid or a side gig that fulfills that sense of calling. So, there's more than one way to do this.
[00:30:38] I love that. And I don't want anyone to feel trapped in that, you know?
[00:30:41] Megan: I think that's great because I think that takes some pressure off, first of all. But it's not, I think maybe part of the resistance too is like, Oh my gosh. Am I, I spent, you know, 20 years in this career and I'm going to have to start back at a 30, 000 a year job and I've missed my calling and I'm going to be broke and
[00:30:54] Arianna: on and on and on,
[00:30:55] Megan: you know?
[00:30:56] Arianna: Yeah, totally. And by the way, that myth that calling is never pays well is actually [00:31:00] totally wrong. Most people who actually feel called are getting paid quite a lot. So there's a lot of things going on there, but you know, my. My parents didn't pursue their occupational calling all the time because they felt called to be really good spouses and parents and they felt the conflict in their work.
[00:31:13] And so they chose work they were good at. They were able to bring in that sense of meaningfulness, but it wasn't their direct one. But yeah, so how might you figure that out? So again, we're talking about Building your own board, your personal board, whether through AI podcasts, authors, or real people paying attention to what you're good at.
[00:31:29] Another way to think about it is if someone asks you something, do you kind of go like, yeah, I can do that. Anytime your voice goes, yeah, I can do that. That's usually not a good sign. So instead slow down and think deeply about. When are you doing something and don't dismiss it, even if it's small, that makes you feel glad and joyful and like, wow, that was great.
[00:31:52] So for me, mentoring is something that ignites my heart. Mentoring, collaborative learning, and then being able to speak to [00:32:00] lots of people about things that will make light bulbs go off above their head. That just literally gets my heart beating fast. I love it. And so when I was younger, I was like, should I be a, does that mean I'm a motivational speaker?
[00:32:12] I thought that wasn't for me really exactly. But, uh, I realized that there were different places in work I could do that. So here's what I'm saying. No one job has to be the only job in which you do this. And so you can think of different skill sets and passions that could be applied to multiple different jobs.
[00:32:30] That you can bring in and develop so that you're not limited to just one thing. The reality is people change jobs right now about 10 times between the ages of 18 and 42. So rather than being so fixated on a title, a job title, we need to think more creatively about the kinds of things we can do in the job.
[00:32:52] Michael: You know, it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong here. But I think sometimes when people think about calling, they're thinking of a burning [00:33:00] bush moment, you know, where God speaks to them with an audible voice and they've discovered their calling and they keep waiting for that. But it seems to me like it's a, it's more like a journey.
[00:33:10] that unfolds over time.
[00:33:11] Arianna: Absolutely. In fact, it's unusual. It does exist. And I myself have had those moments. But it's a lot more unusual to have, like, you know, the skies part and, and rays of sunshine streaming down and saying, this is your calling. And then it's clear and obvious and easy. Most of the time, it happens upon reflection.
[00:33:31] It happens after the fact. In the moment, it's not so obvious. This subtle sense of peace, or just a feeling like, I think this is right, and then you look back and it does feel good, or the opposite. You say yes to something and it does not feel right and you realize you need to change that. One financial advisor that I was working with told me that he actually wanted to be a pastor originally, and he went to India for some sort of pastoral training.
[00:33:55] But on his days off, he kept going to financial books. He was like, going to these book fairs and [00:34:00] he was So drawn to numbers and then he, he said, I realized I was denying who I was. I needed to follow my interests and God was there too. And so now he's this phenomenal financial advisor who is so pastoral in the way that he counsels people, that he's using his skill sets in a really cool way.
[00:34:18] But I want to go back a little bit, like, so for people who are in a job and they like it or they. Most of the time like it, but they don't know that they can leave it. They don't know if they want to leave it. There are job crafting strategies that they can do. I don't know if you've talked about this before, but there are three.
[00:34:33] So the first is task crafting task. Crafting is when you realize there's something you can let go, you can delegate, it doesn't have to be you anymore and you give it away. In order to make space for something that actually you're good at. The opposite also could be that you don't mind taking on something extra because you actually just really enjoy it.
[00:34:52] And so you ask to take on that extra thing. That's task crafting. Relational crafting is the second one. Relational crafting is [00:35:00] being mindful of the people that you're around in the workplace, whether virtually or in person. So those text threads, are they like bringing you down because it's moved from venting to just complaining or are there people?
[00:35:12] that you can pursue in the workplace, that when you interact with them, oh man, you just see the world better. And so you pursue those relationships, because you're careful of that emotional contagion. You're mindful of that. So task crafting, relational crafting. The third is cognitive crafting. And that goes back to what you were saying earlier.
[00:35:29] You remind yourself what you're doing. You're not just cleaning teeth. You're making people feel better. You're contributing to their overall wellness. And in a situation where people feel very vulnerable and scared, you are assuring them they are going to be okay. And so cognitive crafting is just reframing what you're doing and reminding yourself of the purpose behind it.
[00:35:50] Megan: I love that the other night. So I have five children. My oldest is 23. My youngest is just about to be six. And my 23 year old was over the other night [00:36:00] and he was like on cloud nine. So he doesn't live at home anymore, but he lives nearby. So he comes over for dinner and you know, it was one of those nights and he's just started doing swing dancing classes.
[00:36:10] And I guess he has a real aptitude for swing dancing, which he did not get, uh, from his dad. He's actually my stepson, which is funny. My husband hates to dance. But he got asked to be in this dance troupe where I guess they go perform. I mean, I don't know. I was like, I'm Finn. I don't even know what a dance troupe is.
[00:36:25] Tell me. And he was like, I had the best day, as he was talking, he just left dance. This was the best day I have ever had. And he said, I just can't get enough of this. I just want to dance like all the time. And he was telling me why, and it was fun because it was complicated, but you had to communicate and all the, you know, all these different things.
[00:36:44] And, you know, that was kind of a dramatic example. And I think sometimes younger people are a little less self conscious and may just sort of. Put it out there because they're not trying to be so cool about it. Like us, you know, as we get older and further down the road, but I thought, you know, what a great [00:37:00] example of him feeling his heart come alive to something and just like leaning into it, you know, and.
[00:37:07] I don't know if he's going to do something with that professionally, but it doesn't even matter. He, I mean, I, I think that's maybe an example of outside of his professional life. He works at Chick fil A right now and he likes it. He wouldn't, he would not say, I don't think he would say that he feels that that's his calling, but I think he's discovering a part of his calling even outside of work as he's.
[00:37:29] enjoying this dance aspect of what he's doing.
[00:37:32] Arianna: I love that, and I think we don't honor that need and importance of play as much as we could. And I think when you were talking, that made me think of the seven types of rest. So a lot of times when people who love their job try to rest, they don't do it in a way that actually makes them feel Satisfied.
[00:37:48] So they're frustrated. Like, ah, rest was annoying. That was a waste of time. But the reality is, and I think it was Dr. Dalton Smith who came up with this. It's a TED talk component, but it's seven types of rest. And one of them is [00:38:00] creative rest. So if you're just needing an outlet to restore that part of who you are, creative rest is the way to go.
[00:38:07] There's, there's sensory rest. So that might be like unplugging from the digital chaos or noise that you feel. And even like within physical rest, she does, she defines it as two different kinds. There's one that's It's just static rest, like take a nap, or there's active rest, which is do a yoga class or go for a gentle walk.
[00:38:24] And so I think exploring the types of rest that actually do restore who you are. We have this very singular understanding that rest is like sitting on a couch and looking out the window, which I confess sometimes is what I need, but a lot of times it's not. My husband, who's a high capacity Enneagram three achiever to the utmost.
[00:38:43] That is not what he needs. He needs to go to Disneyland and play all day long and that will restore his heart. That's so
[00:38:49] Megan: funny.
[00:38:50] Michael: I'm an Enneagram 3 too, but that does not sound attractive to me. Yeah, you're
[00:38:52] Megan: an introverted, well, sort of introverted Enneagram 3.
[00:38:56] Michael: You know, we have this model called the freedom compass [00:39:00] that basically imagine a four quadrant and it's basically the intersection of passion and proficiency.
[00:39:06] Megan: So I wrote about
[00:39:07] Michael: this in my book called free to focus. And so it creates four zones. And so we call it the desire zone where your passion and your proficiency come together, which is what you're talking about.
[00:39:16] Arianna: When you have
[00:39:17] Michael: no passion or proficiency, it's your drudgery zone. When you have proficiency, But no passion.
[00:39:23] We call that the disinterest zone.
[00:39:25] Arianna: And then when
[00:39:26] Michael: you have passion, but not the proficiency and it's a place we kind of go to escape, that's the, uh, distraction distraction zone. Thank you, Megan, for killing me. But we also, after we did that, we thought there's an area and I'd love to get your response to this, that we put kind of right in the middle that we call the development zone.
[00:39:44] Now, these are things that you think. Might be your calling, but you're not yet proficient enough to know. And so, for example, I used to hate public speaking. I used to hate writing. Now, those are basically the two things I [00:40:00] do every day, all day, and I love them. But I had to get to a certain level of proficiency before I could say with certainty, this is my calling.
[00:40:07] Do you find that?
[00:40:09] Arianna: Absolutely. I love that so much. I need to get my student. I need to get my hands on that. I want to, I want to read more about that. That's so cool. I love the terminology, the way that you named that. Yeah. And so actually, and I talk about this about it in my book as well, really a healthy calling, uh, the linchpin of it is, is humility.
[00:40:26] And part of humility is the willingness to learn more to know that you don't know everything and that is not a threat, but it's actually exciting. So that's the whole point is that we are, we are dynamic creatures and we, we ought to get better and grow. And this to me again, goes back to that growth mindset versus fixed mindset where, and I will confess to you that I think I'm naturally more of a fixed mindset person.
[00:40:50] Unfortunately, when, when I fail, it feels awful. It feels like it defines myself, but I forced myself into the growth mindset capacity where it's like, okay, failure is just [00:41:00] information of what I'm not good at and where I need to grow. I think that is marvelous and we do need to continue to explore and learn and grow and be messy in that and know that that's part of what helps us learn more about ourselves.
[00:41:13] I love it.
[00:41:21] Megan: Okay. I'm so glad you brought up humility because when I was looking at the table of contents of your book, I was like, Huh. Humility. That's so interesting. That was, it was like, which one is not like the other, you know? Um, and I, and I love listening to that part because I think that. There's so much conversation right now about like, follow your truth and follow your heart.
[00:41:43] And I think maybe this is the benefit of coming at this from a faith perspective, not that you have to, but I think there's something really to be gained there because humility is often the missing ingredient. And sometimes I think that can lead people to narcissism and other really dysfunctional [00:42:00] expressions of calling.
[00:42:01] So will you talk about what you mean? When you say humility and because I know that that was kind of part of of your whole journey was really understanding what that meant and then how that gets applied. In the context of calling.
[00:42:14] Arianna: Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, really great leadership books do touch on this.
[00:42:19] I think of good to great by Jim Collins or the ideal team player, Patrick lunch, Joni, all of those folks, they'll talk about this combination of, you know, humility and strength and all of those things. But here's what I'll tell you. I was in the third year of being a professor at Biola university. I had experienced all the bright sides of calling personally, as well as in my research.
[00:42:39] But I remember laying in bed one night. Covered in sweat, my heart beating like I was running, but I obviously was not running, my mind catastrophizing all these different scenarios, and just feeling like, bleh. And I started thinking about the research on the dark side of calling, and I was checking off things in my head.
[00:42:57] Oh, yep, no, I'm feeling that. Oh, check, check, [00:43:00] check. Oh, shoot. I think I'm burned out. And at the time I was way over serving on multiple committees. I was teaching an overload. I was engaged in planning a wedding. I mean, there was so many things happening. And so I, I made some corrective choices and one choice that I made, which was totally, I think a divine thing is that there was a fellowship I could apply for where I would, it would cut my teaching load in half.
[00:43:21] And I didn't even really think about what it was. You guys, I just applied for it. Cause I was like, I need a break. I need to figure this out. So I applied for it and ended up being that I got. To study the virtue of humility. And I was in this room, it's cherry wood furniture, all the best kind of snacks, deep thinkers with, you know, brown luxurious chairs to sit in.
[00:43:41] I felt like I was part of the inklings and, you know, Jr. Lewis, and I was listening and we were reading all this literature and studies on humility. And all of a sudden when they talked about humility and I thought about those who expressed a healthy calling. It overlapped completely. It literally like fit [00:44:00] into each other.
[00:44:01] And the thing is, we have a misunderstanding of humility these days. I think in popular culture and society, we think of humility like passivity or modesty. It's not modesty. When you think of a humble worker, you don't wanna have someone who works for you, who doesn't know what they're good at, right? They need to have competence.
[00:44:17] They need to be confident in what they're good at, and also humble. So really humility involves three things. Humility involves an awareness of your strengths. and your weaknesses, but not being distracted by either one. You know what you're good at, you know where you need to grow, you're not defensive about where you need to grow, and you're not distracted by what you're good at.
[00:44:38] And really that exists well in a place of gratitude. You know, so you know what you're good at, you know, where you need to go. The second thing is that you are a learner. You realize there's more to learn and you look at this in data and even in, in the Bible, there's all this evidence of continuing to learn.
[00:44:54] The third thing is the ability to walk away for a while. I think of Jim Collins is seminal [00:45:00] good to great book. And they talk about one of the differences between a good leader and a great leader is that a good leader can walk away, but then the company crumbles. But a great leader can step away for a little bit and it still functions well because they've delegated well They've mentored well They've helped other people grow so that no one's afraid if the leader is gone because the leader's Legacy is still there and in humility We know how to step away for a little bit because we know we're not the god of the universe So I think humility gives us the ability, when someone asks us to do more at work, rather than letting it stroke our ego, so that we're like, oh, I'm needed more, I'm going to take this on, or feed our insecurity and say, I better say yes to this so I can prove myself.
[00:45:42] Humility offers us a diagnostic to say, hmm, why am I saying yes to this? Is this going to be healthy or is this going to be unhealthy?
[00:45:50] Michael: That's such a good framework. We had Arthur Brooks on the show not too long ago, and he said, all of us need something that makes us feel [00:46:00] small. And that sounds so like countercultural because that's not what.
[00:46:05] We hear in our culture, but I remember seeing a post on Facebook that had like the whole universe. And then it had a little, little bitty dot and said, you are here, you know, you're just like this little dot.
[00:46:16] Megan: Yeah. Which is great. And you know, what I love about that concept as I was thinking about it and the concept of human flourishing of healthy calling of, you know, some of the stuff that we do around productivity and goal setting and all of that is that I think that we have forgotten.
[00:46:33] That we are the creatures, not the creators. That's right. And that relationship allows us and forces us all the, all the same time to accept our limits. You know, I think there's so much freedom and accepting our limits. I find this very difficult personally. You know, I am always like. So optimistic about how much I can get done or my husband and I finally have come to an agreement on the weekends that like the family chores and the house projects only happen on [00:47:00] Sunday after we get home from church.
[00:47:01] They cannot also happen on Saturday. Cause let me tell you, I can, you give me a week. I can fill it up with things that can be done. You know, I always have more ideas than I have time. And I think there's something that's really good and healthy. About accepting the limitations and realizing that this conversation, um, that I had with our son about the dancing, you know, he was going to have to let some things go that he felt badly about in order to make more time for that.
[00:47:24] Because it was turned out to be big time commitment and I was telling him that great quote that says, you know, you can have anything you want. But you can't have everything you want. And I think that we so often we confuse that and we try to get everything, everything that has any goodness in it. We want more of, instead of being really selective about those things that fall within our calling.
[00:47:47] So I just love this idea. It's, it's like the governor.
[00:47:51] Arianna: Unfortunately, we do have this understanding that pain is weakness leaving the body. You know, I think of the runner's signs, like, you can do it! And to some [00:48:00] extent, we do need to persevere, and I think part of that is knowing the difference between perseverance and denial, which can look very similar.
[00:48:07] Perseverance is knowing your goal and making adjustments along the way when things inevitably change so you can get to the goal. This is why a calendar and planning and lists are so beautiful. But denial is making a goal and being unwilling to alter your plan because you want what you want when you want it.
[00:48:26] Those are not the same. So I think that it's important to recognize, Hey, limitations. And I think being a parent is, Oh, it's so, it's so good in teaching me my limitations because if I am not rested, I am not patient. If I am not patient, I miss an opportunity to help my kid feel seen and heard and grow.
[00:48:48] And so there's a domino effect. Honoring our limitations does not mean that we are limited. It actually means we're informed about what we can and should do. And I think it gives us a freedom. [00:49:00]
[00:49:00] Michael: It does. Yeah. Because even in Say No, we have written a lot about that. We've had guests come on and talk about that.
[00:49:07] And if we don't understand our human limitation, we just think we can be God You know, we can help everybody, and the truth is I can't help everybody. I can basically help a few people, but that's a limitation. I
[00:49:18] Arianna: remember being newly married and coming home. I would have an enormous amount of office hours with my students because I just love them.
[00:49:24] I just have so much love for my college students. My heart just fills. To overflowing for them. And I know that's God given, but I remember coming home and I was exhausted because I think I had met with like 20 students in addition to teaching that day. And my husband was like, I miss you. Can you not meet with as many students?
[00:49:44] And I was like, Oh, at first I was actually a little bit like, but you don't understand. And then I realized actually. Having those boundary lines are really important. Cause otherwise I'm giving from an unhealthy place as well. And so I think that's good. You know, my dad has this sign above his desk that says something like, if you're not turning down [00:50:00] opportunities, you don't really have a plan.
[00:50:02] And I think that unfortunately, sometimes we do have to say no. And it feels bad to say no, but that bad feeling is not necessarily an indication that we did the wrong thing.
[00:50:13] Megan: Part of the journey of humility is entrusting the impact of our calling to God and not taking responsibility for that in a way that like our kind of human frame can't bear being able to say, okay, this is like, I'm going to give my, my time and energy and financial resources and whatever I'm going to offer that.
[00:50:34] To the Lord, but then I'm going to ask him to bless that and to, to make it what he wants it rather than like holding onto it. Like it's mine to kind of force the, the outcome out of it, you know? And I don't know, I think that's freeing too, because I think sometimes when we get overly focused on the outcome of our, whatever our calling is, whether that happens in our vocation or, or avocationally, like, [00:51:00] It really is, it can be dangerous because we end up in a role of trying to play God and we take, I mean, to use like psychological language, it becomes codependent, you know, it's like we're taking responsibility for something in someone else's life that isn't ours.
[00:51:13] to own. And I think that's a real danger, especially when you care a lot. Um, as a parent, as a, as a boss, as a coworker, you know, what, whatever your context is, it is so easy to fall into that. Do you see that in your work? Oh, yes.
[00:51:30] Arianna: And again, that's where I don't think you can have reflection. Without slowing down.
[00:51:35] And this is why I'm a big proponent of having a day of rest every week so that we can slow down and it, it might not always be physical rest, depending on your life circumstances, if you have more than one job or you have young kids or you're caretaking for a family member, it might not be physical rest, but that emotional.
[00:51:51] Mental and spiritual rest reminds you, helps you see the things that maybe you've been stuffing down. The Nagoski sisters who wrote a book on [00:52:00] burnout talk a lot about emotion being a tunnel. Yeah, so good. So good. And they talk about emotion being a tunnel. And if you don't choose to go in the tunnel, you remain You can't go around it, can't go under it, can't go over it, have to go through it.
[00:52:16] And I don't think you can do that unless you slow down. Slowing down allows for that reflection. And I know for me, you know, I'm so used to the motion and momentum of movement that it's almost like stepping off of a boat
[00:52:30] Megan: and
[00:52:30] Arianna: walking on dry land. And you feel a little rocked by like, Whoa, what's going on?
[00:52:33] I have to, I have to slow down. But once I do. I almost always hear the whispers of my collar reminding me about the order of things and the orientation of things. And I'm always, always better for it.
[00:52:49] Michael: Megan and I have talked a lot about this, but we live in a world. of hurry and we do everything fast. I mean, I walk fast and I drive fast.
[00:52:58] I like never drive the speed limit. [00:53:00] Uh, I mean, true confession. So you could, anytime I'm out, I'm fair game. But I think that there, there is a reaction to that coming. Where people just feel the need to slow it down because hurry has become a value in and of itself. We all march to that. I don't know if it comes from a scarcity mindset.
[00:53:19] You know, I'm at the age where, you know, I have less runway than the two of you. So, you know, I can feel like, Oh my gosh, I got so much to pack in. And there's so much I want to learn, but to just slow it down a little bit. And we were talking in a previous podcast about John Mark Comer's work, you know, the ruthless elimination of hurry.
[00:53:37] And that's so resonating with me. So good.
[00:53:39] Megan: We were also talking about, I think in that same podcast, I can't remember now, but, you know, in some ways that hurry. It has like an existential quality to it that it's, it's almost like a refusal to face our own mortality and to kind of outrun it. And even, you know, again, not, we know not everybody in our community is [00:54:00] coming from a faith based perspective, but just speaking personally, as Christians, we believe that we have eternity on the other side, like our, there's an interruption at death in our life, but that we, we have eternity and that the next life is going to be better.
[00:54:14] And fuller than this one. And yet we live like practical atheists and, you know, we, we deny that reality. Like time is running out. And in some ways I think, you know, obviously the Psalmist says, teach us to number our days. We may find a heart of wisdom, you know, like, so there, there is a purpose to that, but I also think we can ignore the fact that the scarcity is sort of.
[00:54:38] Pretend in some ways, you know, the best things in life go on,
[00:54:42] Arianna: but I do appreciate that it's very real. I mean, I, um, two years ago, I had a lot of, um, people in my life, including myself with some serious health issues that just all surfaced around the same time. And I went to the ER several times. I was misdiagnosed with something else and ended up really just needing to process [00:55:00] my own mortality.
[00:55:01] And it was like, this is way too early. I feel like this is way too early for me to process my mortality. But it did create in me a fresh understanding of that scarcity model and what that actually feels like in our bodies and in our hearts and in our minds. And all I can say to you is I agree. I think of the peace that passes understanding the peace that is not like what the world promises the peace that by the mouth of my Lord, calmed the storm in the sea, that fishermen who were skilled fishermen who knew what storms looked like and usually didn't get scared were freaking out.
[00:55:38] And so I think for me, the only way that I can stay anchored is to have that rest time that's not just for myself, but that's inclusive of my collar. Yeah.
[00:55:48] Michael: You know, I love that you're a professor. I love that you're helping form and shape this next generation of workers. How does this raw material show up at your doorstep?
[00:55:58] And what [00:56:00] happens, or what are you hoping to send them into the world
[00:56:02] Arianna: with? Thank you. I love being a professor also. And I know that that is a calling that I try to hold with open hands, but it's just the coolest job ever. You know, I get to go to a campus, and before the start of every semester, I pray over the doorway and all the seats, and then these, these people come in, these young adults, who either don't want to be there, are not sure why they're there or like overly excited to be there.
[00:56:25] And I love all of them. I'm just so excited to get to the people in the back and the side and the front. And what I love about talking about organizational communication, communication in the workplace and about work is you can use it. anywhere. So for me, we start off in the freshman level classes, just getting them to think about what is work.
[00:56:46] You know, I try to eliminate, have them eliminate the phrase a real job because that does not honor the work that people do. And a particular job may not be your ideal job, but it's someone else's ideal job. And so not diminishing other people's work [00:57:00] simply because it's not the work we want. Um, we try to talk about what work is that's not paid work or that's seasonal or partial or entrepreneurial or work for yourself work and all those things.
[00:57:11] And then we talk about leadership and we talk about identity and culture. And at the end, in the senior level, we talk about how do you identify with your workplace because work will shape who you are. As a child, the number one place of socialization is family, but as adults. Where is it? It's actually work.
[00:57:30] We are taught what is good and true and right based on our work interactions with others. So we kind of need to care about it and we need to pay attention to it. And I actually teach a senior level class on work and calling, which is so much fun. So ultimately, whether it's communication students or business students or psychology students, they all come to me and it's super fun.
[00:57:49] I even teach classes like non verbal communication, which is like developing a superpower. But ultimately, to me, it's like giving them a universal key. A key that they might not know how to use yet [00:58:00] or why they would want to use it, but it's in their tool belt. We live in a tool belt generation right now.
[00:58:04] But when you have communication skills that help you in the workplace, you can pull that key out and open up just about any door. And that, to me, is exciting. I want to go back to college.
[00:58:14] Michael: I know, seriously.
[00:58:15] Arianna: I
[00:58:17] Michael: may have missed my calling as a professor. I'm so excited that Hannah introduced us. And she's great.
[00:58:23] As we come to a close, we've got three questions that we ask every guest. And so Megan, I'll let you start.
[00:58:28] Megan: Yeah. Okay. Arianna, what is your biggest obstacle right now in getting the double win winning at work and succeeding at life?
[00:58:38] Arianna: I think my biggest obstacle is, well I'll get real, there's two. One is just not getting enough sleep.
[00:58:44] Sleep is like your best friend and I am not getting enough of it. And you know, I have an almost six year old and that's, it's just hard, you know, and I do love my job. So there's just a lot of screaming things for my attention. I've recently been motivated by that mantra good enough, which, which doesn't mean like [00:59:00] average, like actually I want to aim for good enough, but I need to realize in every circumstance, what actually is good enough and maybe let go of it needing to be more than that.
[00:59:09] Michael: That's a message I need to hear.
[00:59:10] Arianna: Yeah, it's really good.
[00:59:12] Michael: I tend to be a perfectionist. How do you personally know what are the markers of you getting the double win?
[00:59:17] Arianna: Yeah, I am energized. Even if I feel exhausted, it's like that good exhaustion from a great workout. It's not the depleted exhaustion. It's the exhaustion of feeling like you've been used and used well in the spaces that you can help make a difference.
[00:59:31] And coming home and still being a good person to my kid and my husband. So it's a double win when I leave work feeling great and I go home and I still have more to give.
[00:59:43] Megan: Great answer. That is great. Okay, last question. What is one ritual or routine that you rely on to do what you do? We've talked about this already.
[00:59:51] Arianna: I go on this walk for 30 minutes every Friday. To me, it's really orienting the Sabbath, taking a rest once a, once a week, but I'll tell you another small [01:00:00] practice that I've been doing recently. If I have 10 minutes or less between meetings, I'm choosing to not go on my phone. It's a 2025 goal for myself.
[01:00:10] I absolutely make use of like emails and all the things, but if it's less than 10 minutes, if I'm really prepared, I'll have a book with me or I'll listen to a podcast. Like when I mean going on my phone, I mean not engaging in digital communication as much, but just raising my eyes up. And what's happening is I'm having conversations with my coworkers.
[01:00:30] that I wouldn't have expected. I'm noticing people around me that I wouldn't have expected. I'm looking up and out to the window and I'm breathing better. And so again, if it's 15 minutes or 10, more than 10 minutes, then I'm absolutely going to make use of maximize my time. But if it's 10 minutes or less, I'm making it a challenge that I don't always succeed in, but I really try of not getting on my phone.
[01:00:52] Oh, I love that.
[01:00:53] Michael: I do too.
[01:00:54] Arianna: That's cool.
[01:00:55] Michael: And as it turns out, I usually book myself for 50 minutes. And have 10 minutes between meetings. .
[01:00:59] Megan: [01:01:00] Yeah, .
[01:01:00] Michael: So I could do this.
[01:01:01] Megan: Yeah, that's great. That's great. I love that. So original. Well, thank
[01:01:03] Michael: you so much for joining us. This has been a delightful conversation and you really illuminated our thinking on a number of things.
[01:01:10] Megan: Yeah, absolutely. I hope we have the, the chance to talk again, and I think this is, I would love helpful to our community. Thank you, Ariana. Thank you so much.
[01:01:27] Wow. What an amazing conversation that was.
[01:01:32] Michael: I have to say she has a phenomenal personality.
[01:01:34] Megan: She does
[01:01:35] Michael: so much energy. It's very contagious.
[01:01:37] Megan: Well, you can imagine how fun it would be to be one of her students.
[01:01:40] Michael: I mean,
[01:01:40] Megan: I'm not kidding when I said I want to go back to college.
[01:01:43] Michael: I wonder if she and Arthur Brooks know each other.
[01:01:45] They need to know each other.
[01:01:46] Megan: Yes, I think they do. There's some
[01:01:47] Michael: overlap here and I think they could really inform one another's
[01:01:49] Megan: diagrams are overlapping. Well, okay. What was your biggest takeaway?
[01:01:54] Michael: It's been a while, to be honest, that I've thought about work in the context of, [01:02:00] and I think that that gives it a certain gravity and a certain meaning that's really important because it's very easy to sort of move into a view of work.
[01:02:12] That's just all about efficiency, you know, doing stuff faster, more efficient, being more productive.
[01:02:19] Megan: And I
[01:02:19] Michael: think there's, there's something that's beyond that. That is foundational. That's so important. And that is to have a sense of meaning about what you do and understand your role in the larger context.
[01:02:29] And I got that from that conversation with her.
[01:02:32] Megan: Yeah.
[01:02:32] Michael: Well,
[01:02:34] Megan: many things. Um, I think first of all, the idea that you're calling is not just vocational. It can be, and it often is, and maybe that's kind of like the ultimate in a way we get to spend as much time as possible doing that, but it can also be avocational, you know, outside of your professional work.
[01:02:52] And I like that because I think for most of us, you know, my work at full focus. Isn't a [01:03:00] hundred percent reflective of my calling. There are things that I do in my personal life, for example, being a mom or doing a lot with aesthetics. Some of that I do within the context of my role at full focus, but some of that I do in my personal life and together it's like a whole.
[01:03:16] And I like that because I think it creates a sense of freedom that.
[01:03:20] Michael: And integration.
[01:03:21] Megan: And integration. Yeah. That's a good point that it's like, I'm not failing if. My job isn't a hundred percent expressive my calling or if my home life isn't or personal life isn't a hundred percent expressive that like it's really about how it all works together.
[01:03:34] So I like that.
[01:03:36] Michael: I do too. And I also enjoyed the conversation around burnout because she had some nuanced thoughts about that, that I hadn't thought about. Like you can burn out from having too much passion around your job. So just the fact that you love to work, you know, it's not always about. You know, I'm getting validation at work or, you know, this [01:04:00] is where I have meaningful connection with other people.
[01:04:02] It can certainly be that, but it's also just, you know, I want to serve people and I have this passion to serve people, but left unchecked, that can also lead to burnout.
[01:04:11] Megan: Yeah. Which I think brings me to the other big insight that I got both from reading the book, but also from this conversation was around the idea of humility.
[01:04:21] That that is such an important counterbalance to calling because it acts as kind of a governor that helps us remember that ultimately what we're made for this idea of calling is our offering ultimately to God. It's not, it's not kind of an end and of itself, even though in the, in many ways it brings us joy and fulfillment and meaning, but like, we're not.
[01:04:44] We're not accountable for the outcome of that offering. And I just think that like kind of keeps it in its proper place. And as the antidote to what you're talking about, where you love your work so much, it's like you over identify with it. And it's,
[01:04:58] Michael: you idolize it in your language.
[01:04:59] Megan: Yeah, you [01:05:00] idolize it.
[01:05:00] And I think that really is a real risk. So, I don't know, I feel like I'm really on this journey of accepting my limitations and becoming aware of those and letting that be a gift. And that's something I fight so hard against.
[01:05:12] Michael: Yeah. Well, it was a great conversation and I would look forward to talking with her again.
[01:05:17] Megan: Me too. I feel
[01:05:18] Michael: like she has so many useful frameworks and I love frameworks.
[01:05:23] Megan: You do. I was like, y'all are speaking the same language.
[01:05:26] Michael: When she gets into, you know, the four parts of the calling or You're the same
[01:05:29] Megan: Myers Briggs personality. Oh, we are? She's also an ENFJ.
[01:05:32] Michael: Oh, wow. Yeah. Interesting. She's an
[01:05:34] Megan: Enneagram 6.
[01:05:35] We didn't get to that, but that's, but that's where I go in health as an Enneagram 3. So you're basically twins.
[01:05:39] Michael: Okay. Guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, would you do us the favor of leaving a review? And if you can't do that, just rate the podcast. That will help us get more attention for the podcast so we can spread the word about the double win.
[01:05:55] Something that we're passionate about and hopefully proficient in. [01:06:00] Thanks.