An insider's view of China's EV industry

Markham interviews Alysha Webb, long-time freelance automotive journalist who pens the ChinaEV blog. 

What is Energi Talks?

Journalist Markham Hislop interviews leading energy experts from around the world about the energy transition and climate change.

Markham: 00:04

Welcome to episode 387 of the Energy Talks podcast. I'm energy journalist, Marcum Hislop. Alicia Webb is a long time freelance automotive journalist who pens the China EV blog. She's an expert on all things automotive in China especially the rise of electric vehicle manufacturing and its supply chains. And she has written about a topic I'm keenly interested in, China's ability to export EVs and its auto manufacturing prowess to the global south.

Markham: 00:33

In a recent post, she asked a provocative question. Will Chinese automakers take over the world? I think not was her conclusion, but that only holds true if legacy automakers, in her words, get their shit together. Thus far, it's a toss-up. Whether that will happen in time to save companies like Nissan, which is already in trouble, and others that are having a rough time pivoting to electric.

Markham: 01:00

I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Welcome to Energy Talks, Alicia.

Alysha: 01:05

Thanks, Markham. It's great to talk with you. As we just discussed, I love getting back into the whole China world. I covered it for many years for automotive news. I I lived there a total of 14 years.

Alysha: 01:17

I was there as a student, then I worked there as a journalist. So I was there during some really formative years in the automotive industry in terms of internationalization of China's industry. So it's kind of fun to now be part of you know, talk to you about the whole EV portion of the industry as well.

Markham: 01:38

Well, let me I wanna talk about the rise of China's EV, makers. And I'll give you my I I don't have a, an in-depth understanding of how it got started. But what I understand is about 20 years ago, China looked at it, it had an automotive industry and it made internal combustion engines and but it said we're never going to catch the west, or even Japan and South Korea, we're not going to catch them in terms of our technology, Let's start thinking about building electric vehicles. And so they that was the the sort of the nascent the beginning of of that, of the their EV policy. And then there was there have been some influential people who pushed that forward, you know, o seven, o nine, in around that that time.

Markham: 02:29

And then they put in place industrial policy to both, encourage the manufacturing of EVs and the deployment at the same time. And all of those follow the bottom of the s curve as technologies do, and then they, by 2018, 2019, came to their inflection point. Now they're on the hockey stick, and they are a power. And they and they're giving fits to the legacy automotive like automotive, companies like GM and Ford. Is that a reasonable way to a reasonable framework in which to understand the rise of Chinese, electric vehicle companies?

Alysha: 03:10

You know, I think that is, and I'm unfortunately, I'm not as good at pulling just the dates for all the various policies out of my head as some. But I think that what is important to look at is that the Chinese government has been very, persistent in its pursuit of building electric vehicle industry. So, you know, there's a saying in China, crossing the river by feeling for the stones. And that's really how they make policy. And so, yes, they started they they initially said, we wanna be an EV power.

Alysha: 03:54

You know, we can make we have lithium ion batteries for phones. Why not for cars? Which I was initially kind of skeptical of, but, you know, they, again, they incrementally work towards having good batteries, which are, obviously, are the key element in an electric vehicle. And they also use sort of push me, pull you policies to promote to promote the consumption of EVs. And I think that's also important.

Alysha: 04:26

Right? They they tried different kinds of policies to make EVs both more appealing to consumers and more necessary for the auto manufacturers. And so, yes, I think that your summary is is is quite accurate, and they have reached an inflection point now. I mean, I was just reading some figures. And for sales in October, new energy vehicles, which are primarily high, plug in hybrids and battery electric vehicles, were 53% of all light vehicle sales.

Alysha: 05:06

So, yes, China has has gone over that tipping point now, and I and it's largely due to the government's ability to persistently pursue that goal. Of course, it helps that they don't have an election every 4 years. Right? You're an authoritarian government. You can do that.

Markham: 05:27

Right. And you know what? I've heard, I've interviewed other, experts on on various aspects of Chinese energy policy and their energy industries. And one of the points they make is that, yes, the national government is authoritarian and and it certainly directs things. This is not a command and control economy.

Markham: 05:47

The provincial governments and local governments also play a big role in the rise of the, EV industry. Is that is that accurate?

Alysha: 05:58

Definitely. But, of course, they are gonna do things that the central government doesn't want them to do. But at the provincial level, yes, there is also a lot of control or incentives to to produce EVs. I I mean, one negative side of that is that once the central government has a policy, the Chinese tend at the provincial level, they'll all they'll they'll jump into it. And so that's why we have what, you know, over a 100 EV companies in China.

Alysha: 06:40

Right? There's no way they're all gonna succeed. So you do get that kind of that kind of overproduction problem. But, at the provincial level, yes, There is there's significant control over what they're doing at the provincial level in terms of producing EVs. And everybody in every province wants its EV champion.

Alysha: 07:03

Right? I mean, a, you get government incentive dollars then, but, b, you're doing what the central government wants you to do, and you're creating jobs. There's tax income involved there. So, I mean, just as in any country, you want you want industry in your area because it's good for you economically.

Markham: 07:24

Now, the the every 5 years, as I understand it, you're the expert, but I I I was reading about this in Bloomberg. Every 5 years, they have a a plenum, to set economic policy. And the 3rd plenum wrapped up earlier this year. And in the past, there have been 3 things. I think it was furniture, shoes, and something.

Markham: 07:45

And that was the an industrial policy focus that helped China build become an industrial manufacturing power. And the the new three things or the next three things are now solar batteries and EVs. And my understanding is that the national government sees its rise as a geopolitical rival to the United States. They're doing it on the back of their industrial might. And and so they see the next iteration of that industrial might as being solar batteries and and EVs, basically clean energy technologies.

Markham: 08:26

Is that accurate?

Alysha: 08:28

Yes. I I mean, I've obviously, I've been reading some of the same things you have, but I didn't bone up on my specific policy knowledge. But, overall, yes, that is accurate. The government sees that these are areas in which China can be internationally or competitive. And so it it it's going to keep supporting those industries.

Alysha: 08:54

And since we're talking about the EV industry, yes, it will keep supporting that industry. But, you know, it gets kind of tricky, right? I mean, there's so many geopolitical elements involved here. I'm sure you've also read that they've also because they're annoyed at Europe for imposing tariffs on EV imports, they've told they've told Chinese EV makers to stop building plants in Europe. We'll see how that works because there's already some plants being built there.

Alysha: 09:25

But yeah. So there's it's there's so many geopolitics involved now in the Chinese desire to go global in those industries. But in in general, yes, that is their desire.

Markham: 09:43

I often I often think of China's rise in this field, in this area as like a like a draft for the other, major powers, you know, primarily the US and and Europe. I I I often refer to speeches that I've, you know, read from advisers to Biden or cabinet members and and others who are saying, this is now a net matter of national security. It used to be, you know, 2017, 2018, we were all about climate policy and that's why we wanted to install more solar power and wind power or, you know, encourage EVs. But now that China, our biggest rival, is so strong in these areas, we can't rely on them. We just can't be dependent on you can't go to war with somebody and and then expect them to keep shipping you vehicles that you need for your war machine.

Markham: 10:38

Doesn't work that way. And so you need to be able to have that manufacturing capacity at home. And then, of course, the Americans respond to the Chinese, and then the Europeans respond to the Americans, the inflation reduction act, and they put in their own policies. And next thing you know, everybody's scrambling to build this kind of industrial capacity to build these, these new these new products, these new technologies. And the Chinese way is as is is really brilliant.

Markham: 11:04

I mean, it's they kinda set the cats among the pigeons. Right? They have they at one point, I think they had 700 EV makers, and and then they all competed like crazy. And then the so that was whittled down to the 100 or so they have now, and then they're still funding the expansion of capacity even when when they have excess in the anticipation that it'll finally be whittled down to maybe a dozen or so, and then you'll have really lean competitive companies that can operate on the on the global stage.

Alysha: 11:36

Okay. You know, I have doubts that the number of EV makers in China will ever be whittled down to 12 or something like that. That's just not gonna happen because there's too much push me, pull you between the provinces and the central government. I mean, years ago, China had a plan that traditional ICE, internal combustion engine automakers, would also be consolidated into, you know, I think it was, like, 5 big ones and 3 small ones. Anyway, I don't remember these, but something like that.

Alysha: 12:13

Right? And that hasn't happened. There's been some consolidation on that side, but very small amount of it. I I just don't see that happening, but, I do bet I you know, what I do see is China's automakers, especially now the EV makers, continuing to build plants in other countries. And I we're gonna talk about that when we go into the LATAM expansion, I'm sure.

Alysha: 12:49

But I see that is what's going to happen. I mean, I think it could even happen here in the U. S. I I, you know, now President-elect Trump, that's so sad, has even said pretty clearly, oh, well, the Chinese could build plants here in the US. So I see that kind of expansion occurring.

Alysha: 13:12

And, obviously, that's only going to be the larger companies, not these little bit players, but I don't see significant I think consolidation occurring, especially not down to, like, 12. There's that's just never gonna happen. There's always gonna be these tiny EV makers that are, eventually, the government support because they provide jobs.

Markham: 13:39

A a point a point in your favor for that argument is the fact that, China is now expanding the electrification of other forms of transportation. It's already big in in bus making. 2 and 3 wheelers, industrial equipment, other kinds of, you know, medium duty vehicles, heavy duty vehicles. So maybe some of those other EV companies will diversify or maybe they're already doing it into those other areas.

Alysha: 14:10

That could happen. I mean, in China, companies can turn on a dime and say I mean, look. You have cell phone makers making cars now. Right?

Markham: 14:21

Yeah.

Alysha: 14:22

So I

Markham: 14:23

And battery makers.

Alysha: 14:24

I mean, a long ago, a a Chinese friend said to me, no. Chinese people, he said business they do things like like a swarm of bees. So if something is looks to be succeeding, they all go into that. Right? And I so, yeah, companies could say, well, cars didn't work for us, so let's build electric tractors or, you know, whatever.

Alysha: 14:56

But I don't follow that, but any anything's possible in China. You know? We have the same TIC. This is China. So, yeah, some of those companies can certainly pivot and build some other kind of electrified form of transportation or something else because they have the capacity, so they figure why not.

Alysha: 15:19

Right?

Markham: 15:21

Sure. Well, the next thing I want to talk about is EV exports to the global south, because I know China wants would like to get into the US, that's a plumb market and and people spend a lot of money, they tend to buy on the upper end of the of the scale, and and so it'd be very lucrative for Chinese companies to get in into that market. But I can't help but think that when Biden put on the 100% tariffs, earlier this spring, that China, to some extent said, well, okay, you're going to give us the global south. We'll take the global south. We'll go into Latin America and Africa and Asia and Southeast Asia and all these other places.

Markham: 16:06

And that might be, at the end of the day, the the real the real, goal here, or maybe that's not the right way to put it, but that might be the the biggest benefit of this export strategy that that the EV makers have now adopted. Your take.

Alysha: 16:27

I think the US is always the golden ring. Right? And the Chinese really know how to play the long game. And I think that at least when you look at Mexico, clearly the US is the target there. Right?

Alysha: 16:46

And and, of course, there was the, you know, North American the the the the the the free trade agreement, but but it looks like that's not gonna work. But in the meantime, yes, the Chinese are already expanding into Latin America. And this is not just electric vehicles. In fact, most of Chinese exports to Latin America right now are ICE vehicles, but BYD and Great Wall, especially, are growing pretty aggressively in Latin America. And I think I was just doing a little bit of background research to refresh my memory.

Alysha: 17:31

So right now in Mexico, only JAC has a plant there, but, of course, a there are 11 Chinese brands that are sold there, and Chinese brands have, like, 10% of the market in Mexico earlier this year. And again, a tiny percentage of those were electric vehicles, but obviously that's going to grow. Right? Depending on how much the Mexican government wants to incentivize electric vehicle purchases. But then you look at Brazil.

Alysha: 17:59

Brazil is also Chinese brands are huge there. It was the top export market for Chinese EV makers last year. So you see a lot of growth there. Again, EVs are still a tiny part of the market. They like flex fuel vehicles there because corn.

Alysha: 18:21

But and so they, you know, they can use their own commodities to make it. But it's but that market is growing too, and there they're taking over, like, they took over the old I think, what is it? B was it BYD took over an old Ford plant. Great Wall took over an old Mercedes plant. So, yes, there is Latin America definitely represents a growth market for the Chinese automakers and especially the EV makers.

Alysha: 18:50

I mean, a lot of the growth of the e mark EV markets will, as in all places, depend on the government's willingness to incentivize. I mean, I was just in Argentina. I was on vacation, but I of course, when we were in Buenos Aires, I was looking around for Chinese electric vehicles or Chinese vehicles in general. I saw, like, 3. Right?

Alysha: 19:11

I mean, they're yeah. They're not a lot in Argentina. So I, but I think that especially if when oh oh, and there's also some pushback in, in, say, Brazil about just exports. Right? They want them to build plants there.

Alysha: 19:35

Right? And even and and even when they build plants in countries, I think there can sometimes be then, there can be what's the word I want? It it doesn't always come out the way the country wanted. Right? Chinese tend to bring in their own construction companies, like Xinjiang, to build the plant.

Alysha: 19:59

They import they bring in workers from China, so it doesn't provide jobs. So, yeah, there that can be an issue. We aren't there yet, but, but I think that, to get back to your point, I think that that, yes, the Chinese are going to build plants in Latin America to serve those markets. They can export to Latin American markets as well as well. But especially in Mexico, I think that the long game is the US market, for sure.

Markham: 20:31

Let's talk about Southeast Asia because I think you noted in one of your blog posts that that has emerged as a primary channel as you put it for China's, EV automakers. And, what can you tell us about Southeast Asia?

Alysha: 20:46

So that was actually, I think, the story I wrote for inside EVs. But Southeast Asia is more welcoming for Chinese electric vehicle brands. I mean, for one thing, you have the geographic proximity. Right? So that's pretty handy.

Alysha: 21:03

But I think also especially, like, the Thai government has been quite welcoming, and they have a goal to make, I don't know, 30% of their market, I believe, EVs by a certain date. So, obviously, the Chinese brands have the technology. They wanna come in. So, you know, they're being quite welcoming to Chinese EV brands, and Southeast Asia in general is seen as a really hot growth market for electric vehicles. And I and and China is clearly positioned to be the dominant player in that area.

Alysha: 21:42

And, again, you might get some pushback because I think it was Indonesia they're building, oh, Malaysia, a CKD plant. So then again, you know, you aren't getting all the benefits you might get from just a a regular plan. I mean, complete knockdown is when you bring all the parts in from China and put it together. But as, Phan Sedong, who, from S&P Global Mobility, who I talked to for a story, as he said, well but at the end of the day, it's still jobs they're creating, GDP growth. So it's it's a win win, and even if it makes them a little annoyed that they didn't bring all the jobs in that they want.

Alysha: 22:21

So, yeah, I think Southeast Asia is clearly gonna be dominated very soon. I mean, it already is in some ways by Chinese EV makers in terms of the EV market there. It's it's it it's already that's, yeah, that's already that that train's already left the station.

Markham: 22:44

Is there a connection between China's belt and road initiative and these EV exports?

Alysha: 22:52

I'm not familiar with the Belt and Road details, but I don't think that these are a part of the Belt and Road. I mean, they could say they are, but they were already exporting to these countries. So I don't believe it's part of the belt and road.

Markham: 23:14

The reason I ask is is because, you know, exporting into into these markets in the global south, a lot of it has to do with electric infrastructure. Do you have the generation? Do you have the distribution, the power grid, that that sort of thing? And Belt and Road is often, the investment goes into that kind of infrastructure with a coal plant or solar farm or whatever it is. I just thought that it would make sense, given how strategic and long term the national government thinks that, you know, we'll give them the tech the electric technologies.

Markham: 23:49

We'll sell that to them, and we'll build it there. But we also need to invest in their infrastructure so they can buy more of those electric technologies.

Alysha: 23:58

Follow your thinking there, but I don't think that's happening. I mean, there's been a lot of pushback against belt and road in some countries because China's just loading countries up on debt. Right? And there's been a realization that when something seems too good to be true, it often it is. So I and, you know, and Southeast Asian countries have long I mean, they know China.

Alysha: 24:24

Right? They're its neighbor. So I I I I think that, yeah, that could be, you know, really longer term, a clever ploy to create demand for your infrastructure investment, but, I'm not aware of that happening yet.

Markham: 24:49

Well, let's talk about some of the other, you know, like, other parts of Asia, like India and Pakistan, for example. India is trying to build its own auto industry. Well, it has an an auto industry, but it's trying to build its own EV, auto industry. Will China be successful in making inroads into those markets?

Alysha: 25:13

Well, I haven't looked at those markets. I haven't looked at Pakistan at all. And I used to look at India a little more closely when I was blogging about EVs, But I you know, relations between China and India are tense. So I don't see China making huge inroads into India in terms of the EV market because India has its own automakers, you know, Tata Mahindra, that are gonna wanna get into that market. So I don't see India doing China any favors where that is concerned.

Markham: 25:57

Well, let's talk about a a favorite parlor game these days. Can the legacy automakers catch up?

Alysha: 26:07

No. I mean, let's face it. Nope. They can't.

Markham: 26:12

I mean, they

Alysha: 26:13

can't. They might they might get maybe some of them will a little bit, but can they catch up with China in terms of the, Chinese electric vehicles are now so advanced in terms of the whole connected car technology. And that I just don't see how legacy automakers can catch up unless they work with Chinese automakers. So you see that happening, like with Stellantis and Leapmotor. I mean, come on.

Alysha: 26:52

Can Stellantis catch up anyway? Can they no. I mean, let's we're not gonna go there with Stellantis in general, but, you know, those kinds of cooperations with Chinese automakers could help them have access to some of the the the the high-tech the the really good connected car technology that Chinese automakers have. But I just don't see how they're going to be able to catch up. Okay?

Alysha: 27:22

I mean, in markets where Chinese can't get in, such as the US, it looks like, at least for the near term, near to midterm, legacy automakers are gonna have a a leg up on the market such as it is. Right? But I think that, you know, you need to appeal to the next generation of car buyers, right, which is what now it's like Gen z. I can't even keep up. I think Gen zed is the anyway, you and they want the kinds of functions that Chinese electric vehicles have.

Alysha: 28:05

I think Auto Pacific did a study that found there would be a big market for Chinese electric vehicles here because of all their connected car functionalities if they came in. That's consumers want that. So I think it's would be a a big struggle for legacy automakers as a whole to catch up with where the Chinese are now in the electric vehicle sector. Maybe some legacy automakers can make it work, but, you know, they're way down. I mean, look at Volkswagen.

Alysha: 28:41

Right? They started the whole carryad thing to develop software for their cars. That didn't seem to work. Now they've, you know, invested in Rivian, and, you know, I just think that it's a problem for legacy automakers because they're weighed down by their legacy.

Markham: 29:02

Yes. I talked to, an automotive analyst who is also an engineer, automotive engineer, who specializes in software And he said, you know, legacy automakers can do things like make, you know, power electronics or whatever. The kind of stuff that they've done to make fuel injection and other parts of ice vehicles function. But the whole connectivity and that is just that's a whole new world for them. Yeah.

Markham: 29:32

And they're not doing a real good job of building capacity within their within their, companies to successfully transition to

Alysha: 29:41

it. I mean, there's a reason that you know, is it Ford's hiring all these people from Apple and I yeah. They're but it's just hard to become something you're not. Right? I mean, it's and then GM.

Alysha: 29:56

Was it GM? Who is the company they've invested in? I'm having a senior moment here. But yeah. I mean, it's even when they buy or invest in these startups with that kind of technology, it's just really hard for them to integrate that kind of thinking and functionality into their existing infrastructure.

Alysha: 30:21

So it it's just it's tough for legacy. Plus, they have to keep making ICEs to fund the, to fund this kind of investment. Right? So they can't give up on ICEs because those are the cash cows. So they've got a real dilemma there.

Markham: 30:40

I I often, refer to professor Clayton h Christensen from Harvard Business School who talked about wrote about, disruptive innovations. And the disruptive innovation here, and a disruption innovation is some technology or process, whatever it is, usually a technology, comes along and the incumbent, doesn't adopt it because it's not profitable right away. They stick with what they stick to their knitting. And some other startup, some other company comes along with that technology and basically eats the incumbent's lunch. And I think, you know, Blockbuster is just the classic, the metaphor for that process.

Markham: 31:24

And it seems to me that we have the in North America, we have not wrapped our heads around the fact that electric transportation is the disruptive innovation here. And and that our incumbents are not doing a good job of pivoting to that technology and incorporating it into their business model. And history would tell us that those the kind of difficulties lead to failure. Blockbuster being, you know, the classic example, but there's plenty of others. Would you agree or disagree?

Alysha: 31:59

In a little longer term, yeah. Right? I mean, America is going to become a dinosaur in terms of the automotive industry, especially I mean, we don't know where policy regarding electric vehicles is gonna go now. Right? I mean, the IRA could be gutted.

Alysha: 32:25

And although a lot of red states have getting a lot of money from the IRA, so they'll probably push back against that. But, I think that over time, what's gonna happen in the EV sector in the US auto industry is gonna resemble what happened with the Japanese in the ICE sector, and that other companies, and they're probably gonna be Chinese over the longer term, are gonna come in and start building cars here. And they're gonna offer a lot more at a good price, and people are gonna buy them. Right? They're they maybe they don't like China, but they're gonna be like, oh, I don't know.

Alysha: 33:12

That's a pretty cool car. And it's like it's like my cell phone. It's like my mobile phone on wheels. I don't know. Maybe I will try one of these out.

Alysha: 33:22

You know? I mean, it's like anybody. Once you drive an electric vehicle, I'll torque all the time. I mean, they're so fun. Right?

Alysha: 33:29

I think that over time that that's going to happen here. But, you know, it's kind of longer term because, you know, the the big three, the Detroit 3, although they're not really in Detroit now, it's hard to know. But, you know, they they're big here, and they employ lots of people, and they have clout. And and then, again, we got the whole political geopolitical environment here now. So I just think that your that that it that not promoting the electric vehicle industry more is putting off the inevitable over the longer term, though.

Alysha: 34:14

So, you know, just have kinda have to see how that goes. It's, gonna have to to adopt that whole Chinese crossing the river by feeling for the stones approach, I guess.

Markham: 34:28

Well, if if I was a betting man, I I would bet that, the it won't bite 2035 ish. The many of the legacy automakers will either have failed or will be a shadow of their former self and maybe restricted to a few markets and, you know, with products that really can't compete against the the Chinese automakers. That's that's just my prediction, based on the trends.

Alysha: 34:59

That's only a little over a decade. That might be hasty, but I think that the trend is correct. Right? I don't think the Chinese are gonna fully dominate the automotive industry, but I think that they will have a significant portion of the global auto market for EVs. I think that's entirely possible.

Alysha: 35:33

But I think that some of the legacies will stick around.

Markham: 35:37

Let me back up a little bit. My my main interest here is the the progress and pace of the global energy transition. So far more than the the automakers. Right. So if China, leads and puts pressure on the legacy automakers to to pivot to electric much quicker than they would have otherwise, then the go the prospect of getting significant percentages of electric transportation, whether it's cars, trucks, garbage trucks, whatever it is, is is much higher than if China wasn't in that, particular position.

Markham: 36:16

So the weather at the end of the day, the legacy automakers are a higher percentage or a lower percentage is, from my point of view, kind of irrelevant. It's that the transportation is going to be electrified. That's the big disruption that's coming, and that I think will be here by 2035. It'll have changed things a great deal.

Alysha: 36:39

Well, I think you're right there. I mean, it's electrification just makes so much sense in so many ways for especially for things like buses and then fleet vehicles that you know how far they're gonna travel. Right? Like delivery or USPS. Right, and, I mean, I don't understand why the USPS hasn't gone fully electric.

Alysha: 37:02

What a effing waste, right, and, I mean, you know exactly where those mail trucks are gonna go every day. They go back to the same place every night. I don't know. Is there any more perfect, you know, example of something ripe for electrification? But I think you're right about that.

Alysha: 37:23

China's role in it could be very large, you know, unless there's a war or something like that. That would be unfortunate. We live in unsettling times. So,

Markham: 37:38

you know We do.

Alysha: 37:39

It's it's hard to know. But I I I agree with you that I that electric vehicles will largely be dominant within a decade. Yeah.

Markham: 37:54

Well, Alicia, this has been fascinating. Thank you very much for this. I I enjoyed learning about China and and and any of the clean energy technologies, particularly EVs. Bit of a gear head from way back, and so this and I do like EVs. I'm a torque junkie.

Markham: 38:10

I I I admit it. Yeah.

Alysha: 38:12

I'm totally not a gearhead, but, you know, EVs are fun to drive. Right?

Markham: 38:17

They are. Yes. They are.

Alysha: 38:19

Even an effing even a LEAF is fun to drive for god's sakes. I don't know all the stuff about Prius, though. The Prius was so so boring to drive. So, yeah, I from a gears head perspective, I can see that EVs, BEVs would, you know, be, like, right up your alley.

Markham: 38:42

Oh, they're a lot of fun. I can't wait to hear that.

Alysha: 38:44

Drive, Markham?

Markham: 38:46

Pardon

Alysha: 38:46

me? What do you drive?

Markham: 38:48

I drive a a gas car, an an Infiniti, 22 2015 Infiniti, QX50, which is a little, SUV, kind of a crossover thing, and I Mhmm. We and our other car is a Toyota Matrix, so a little station wagon, and Right. And and the reason I I do that is because I drive back and forth between BC and Alberta through the mountains. And and that, you know, it's just an energy sucker. And so until we get a little more range and and the public infra charging infrastructure is built out, along my that route, along, you you know, essentially highway 1, then it's not quite ready for me and for my requirements, but it'll get there.

Markham: 39:32

It'll just won't be long out.

Alysha: 39:34

You could have one EV and one ICE. Right?

Markham: 39:38

I know. We talk about the my wife and I talk about this all the time because the problem is the the the the the town car, the little car we use for running around grocery getting, is it's a Toyota, you can't kill it.

Alysha: 39:52

No. I know. I was gonna say, well, it's gonna last forever then. Right? It's never gonna die.

Alysha: 39:57

I mean, my Turcell yeah. It's Yeah. Exactly. And so never gonna die.

Markham: 40:04

The the economics at the moment, we're kinda we're kinda caught in our economics. And, as much as we would like to have an EV, at the moment, it doesn't make sense. Though, on the other hand, we are electrifying our home. We have a heat pump and a hot electric hot water heater and electric bikes and electric lawnmower. And so, transportation will probably, ironically, be the last thing we electrify just because of our circumstances.

Alysha: 40:29

Yeah. I I lease a Honda Civic, and I I I it an EV doesn't make sense for me because we don't have any charging of my condo complex. And then during ski season, I drive to Mammoth pretty often to ski. And and although there are, chargers on the 395, the highway to Mammoth, still, I'm just not I'm just right now, it just doesn't make sense for me, but, someday.

Markham: 41:05

You know what? On the adoption, you're probably familiar with Everett Rogers, technology adoption curve. You know, the innovators, early adopters, early majority curve. You know, the innovators, early adopters, early majority adopters, you know, everybody's heard those terms. We are generally, in the middle of the early majority, adopter category.

Markham: 41:27

So when technologies get up to 30, 40, 50 percent of market penetration, which so it's a little early for us. And the biggest thing, that puts us into that category is is risk. I mean, you're a journalist, I'm a journalist. It's not like, you know, we're not getting paid CEO dollars here. And so when we make a big purchase like that, we have to be sure that it will do the job that we bought it for.

Markham: 41:53

And so we tend to be more cautious. Let we're more risk averse, and that pushes us up the curve and makes us adopt probably later than we would otherwise, like to.

Alysha: 42:04

Yeah. I that's this is this is true. I mean, it all really comes down to infrastructure. Right? I mean, that's something that we didn't even discuss, but charging infrastructure is the is really the barrier to wider adoption right now.

Alysha: 42:19

Right? So it yeah. I can see, you know, maybe my next well, if we have charging here where I live, but I my parking space isn't close enough to my house to run a cord, and then it would still only be 110. So no. I I yeah.

Alysha: 42:40

You know, it's not even 220 here. The US is, like we're just so far behind everyone. So I'm I mean, we were in Argentina, and I'm like, oh, our phones are charging super fast, 2 20 volts. And my friend said, what? It's 2 20 here?

Alysha: 42:53

And I said, yes. Every place except the US has 2 20 volts. I was like, we they have metric too, but we don't have that. So we have to do our own thing.

Markham: 43:03

Well, thank you very much for this. Really appreciate it.

Alysha: 43:05

Thanks for talking with me, Mark. And it's been fun.