The Ten Thousand Things

Possible triggers. A confronting episode but one we are proud of. Sam, Joe, and Ali explore the impacts, recovery and residues of mental breakdowns.

The recent Robbie Williams documentary has kicked off many discussions about mental health
Robbie's demeanour on screen reminded Ali of herself. He was had extraordinary energy before his collapse, as did Ali, with full time work, a small child, a backyard farm and making sourdough from scratch
In the present, Ali can see that something inside Williams is 'still broken' or 'empty' even though he remains functional in most areas of life
This led Ali to consider her life and self now, and compare it with her perception of self before her breakdown
We collectively navigate Ali's personal journey through mental health challenges, including a severe breakdown that led her into a state of psychotic mania and hospitalization.
Joe brings up Donald Winnicott and his concept of the 'good enough parent' which relates to the 'good enough self', which is the best self, because it is the True Self, as opposed to the ideal self, which is a False Self, and is not sustainable (leading to many problems including breakdowns). Winnicott also gave us the idea that 'the catastrophe we fear has already happened'- which also relates to Ali's experience clo
We delve into the changes in energy levels, personal expectations, ambitions, and the perceived self after such an experience.
We look for therapeutic and analytic angles to discuss the theme of death and mortality in Ali's breakdown
Ali's story strongly reminds Sam of Joseph Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey*. Sam proposes that Ali followed most of the stages of the Journey in her breakdown, but may have remaining analysis to complete on the Road Back to the Ordinary World.
We touch on diagnostic perspectives, struggles with unmet expectations, and the thirst for normalcy
Joe advocates for spiritual exploration as an intrinsic part of the journey of healing and understanding, and as the best way to meet that higher calling, to live a full life.

*Campbell's book The Hero With A Thousand Faces is an analysis of myth, through ideas from psycho therapy, . The journey is a model of psychological struggle and change in the self. In various stages the self must deal with a Call to Adventure which disrupts their world, they cross into an unknown world, they face dangers, and approach the innermost cave, with an increasing and impending feeling of life and death, they face an ordeal, a struggle and rebirth, an atonement and resurrection. The Road Back is also full of dangers, before we can re-enter the Ordinary World, but find ourselves changed, and our experience of the world forever altered.

Keywords: Mental Breakdowns, Recoveries, Energy Levels, Psychosis, Psychotherapy, Psycho-analysis, Mania, Winnicott, The Good Enough Parent, Spirituality, Higher Calling

(00:00) - Theme and host intro
(00:48) - Robbie Williams: another Ali Sam crossover
(01:36) - The Attraction to Robbie Williams
(02:39) - Mental Breakdowns: do we ever put the pieces back together again?
(03:31) - Ali's Personal Experience with Mental Breakdown
(05:08) - The Aftermath of a Mental Breakdown
(05:32) - The Healing Process
(08:09) - Ali's breakdown and afterwards
(11:19) - The Struggle of Recovery
(12:44) - Reflections on the Healing Journey
(26:36) - Living in the Future: A Discussion on Expectations
(26:40) - The Psych Ward Experience: Future Focus vs Present Moment
(27:08) - Facing Mortality: A Personal Perspective
(27:22) - The Illusion of Imminent Death and Its Impact
(27:27) - The Struggle with Physical Health and Self-Perception
(28:28) - The Power of Therapy: Understanding Psychosis
(28:57) - The Reality of Perception: A Psychedelic Experience
(29:49) - The Fear of Failure and the Pressure of Expectations
(31:50) - The Fear of Disappointing Family and the Pressure of Social Scripts
(37:55) - The Struggle with Energy Levels and the Desire for a Higher Calling

00:00 Theme and host intro
00:48 Robbie Williams: another Ali Sam crossover
01:36 The Attraction to Robbie Williams
02:39 Mental Breakdowns: do we ever put the pieces back together again?
03:31 Ali's Personal Experience with Mental Breakdown
05:08 The Aftermath of a Mental Breakdown
05:32 The Healing Process
08:09 Ali's breakdown and afterwards
11:19 The Struggle of Recovery
12:44 Reflections on the Healing Journey
26:36 Living in the Future: A Discussion on Expectations
26:40 The Psych Ward Experience: Future Focus vs Present Moment
27:08 Facing Mortality: A Personal Perspective
27:22 The Illusion of Imminent Death and Its Impact
27:27 The Struggle with Physical Health and Self-Perception
28:28 The Power of Therapy: Understanding Psychosis
28:57 The Reality of Perception: A Psychedelic Experience
29:49 The Fear of Failure and the Pressure of Expectations
31:50 The Fear of Disappointing Family and the Pressure of Social Scripts
37:55 The Struggle with Energy Levels and the Desire for a Higher Calling

Creators & Guests

Host

Ali Catramados

Diagnosed crazy cat lady/part time podcaster

Host

Joe Loh

Film crew guy and mental health care worker with aspirations of being a small town intellectual one day.

Host

Sam Ellis

Teacher/father/leftist loonie/raised hare Krishna and have never quite renounced it - "I just have one more thing to say, then I’ll let you speak"

What is The Ten Thousand Things?

Sometimes deep, often amusing, therapeutic chats touching on philosophy, spirituality, religion, consciousness, culture, music, dating, and life. Join Sam, Joe and Ali as they discuss the 10,000 illusions that make up “reality”.

Musical theme by Ehsan Gelsi - Ephemera (Live at Melbourne Town Hall)

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Sam: Hello, and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Joe: Today on the show, an Ali, uh, topic.

Over to you, Ali.

Ali: Oh, straight in.

Sam: Well, I thought you were
going to preface it a tiny bit.

Um, well also the little, uh, three
neurodivergent, people mantra,

um, we're grappling with one of
the 10, 000 things at a time.

Uh, through a lens of
subjective experience and, and

multiple diagnoses between us.

Um, I thought this was a fun one.

Ali and I are both passionate
about Nigella Lawson and

Robbie Williams, it turns out.

And the recent documentary about Robbie
has been very revealing and provocative

of conversation with lots of people.

Ali: I was watching it because
who wouldn't want to watch Robbie.

He's underpants talk about
himself for four hours.

He's magnetic.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

And it's definitely worth the watch.

Sam: He's a born entertainer.

Ali: He really is.

Sam: Like, like our Nige.

Yeah.

It's, I don't know.

There's something about him.

Joe: culturally at all.

I have no idea who he is.

Sam: Irrelevant figure on
Joe's cultural landscape.

Joe: I honestly cannot place,
he's a boy band guy, right?

Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

That's all he is.

Ali,

Joe: I happily will ignore whoever
he is for the rest of my life,

Sam: you're missing out bro.

Ali: You really are.

Anyway, I was going to say,
he was the love of my life

for many, many years, but um,

Sam: not the worst choice.

Ali: Yeah.

No, it's actually emblematic of, I was
talking to a girlfriend about this.

About the kind of man that I've always
been attracted to, there's a guy in the

pub, he's probably pulled his pants down.

He's about to get kicked out.

That would be the one that I'd go after.

Like, that's the one for me.

And I said, and like, the loose unit and
watching Robbie and him being emblematic

of all the boyfriends I've ever had,
kind of have a thing for dickheads.

Like someone who's like, and I
don't say that in a mean way.

Someone who's, yeah, they've got all
these, they don't take themselves

too seriously, but there's this love.

Joe: So basically the worst people
on dating apps, the ones who say,

I don't take things too seriously.

But they're willing to have.

Yeah, have you looked at
the fucking world lately?

Cause it's going to come and take
you pretty fucking seriously.

So maybe pay attention, you fuck.

Fucking airhead, coming in hot.

Ali: Someone who's happy to have
a joke at their own expense.

Yeah, agreed.

That's what it is.

Sam: I think that's the distinction.

Ali: But the point is, someone who's
very publicly had a mental breakdown.

Joe: You are, or Robbie?

Robbie.

Sam: Well, I mean, yours was
somewhat public, I guess.

Ali: Yeah, well, to the people around me.

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

But, but watching this...

This documentary and seeing
him to me still seemed like

very much like an open wound.

Like there was still stuff
that you could see had been...

was fundamentally broken
at one point in his life.

There was a huge moment where, you
know, it's panic attack and it just,

it changed the course of things
for a really, really long time.

And I feel like even still now
watching it, even though it's

sort of, you know, it's got a,
he's still had a wildly successful

career and all that sort of stuff.

There's still something, you know, he
was sort of talking about, you know,

he spends most of his time in bed when
he's not on stage and things like that.

And I seeing that and.

After having my own mental breakdown,
the question I asked in the group chat,

the 10, 000 things group chat, was
Do you ever fully put the pieces back

together again after you've cracked
them open or they've been cracked open?

Yeah.

And

Sam: obviously your feeling
is, you know, you don't

Ali: 100 percent no, no, like, and
this is how I described it when I

went into hospital when I had my own
breakdown a few years ago in that I

feel like I was like this Lego house.

Like that was put together all wrong
and put up on a wonky ass Lego.

Yeah, like some crazy thing a little
toddler's built, chucked it up on a

shelf, gathering dust for 37 years.

And someone's come and bumped
the shelf and this Lego house

has smashed into a million bits.

And there's no instructions.

There's, you don't really know
what it's meant to look like.

And you somehow have to build a
house out of all these pieces.

That is what it felt like having
a breakdown and trying to.

Envisage what I can build with what I
have and It's still very much a work in

progress and I, the thing, like the thing
that really with the, the Robbie Docko

and like, he was saying that he wants to
spend his time in bed and that was the

thing that I mourn or I suppose I miss
pre Breakdown is this level of energy that

has never fully recovered that I've, I
don't have this level of energy that I did

like outside of mania that I don't have
like a natural sort of energy or drive

that it still feels like I'm Just on the
back foot and I'm like will I ever get

that back or is it just that I'm getting
older and no This is getting older.

Is it getting older

Joe: or is it so what I would say Ali
is you put the pieces back together

as best you can and you get on with
it as best you can and that's it

That's life You know, it's like that.

What's that?

Good enough parenting, Sam?

Is that Winnicott?

Yeah, yeah.

Did you have good enough parents?

Are you a good enough parent?

Good enough.

Yeah, good enough is what we get.

Yeah, so I've had two
full psychotic breakdowns.

I'd say I'm fine.

I'd say if anything I'm more resolved
and getting better all the time.

And I haven't had to have a life sentence
of anything from having breakdowns.

Ali: you don't feel there's any
lasting effect of your breakdowns?

Joe: No.

Ali: Really?

Joe: No, I'm getting into
clear, clearer and clearer air.

Ali: Oh, like, I mean, there's some
things that are so much clearer and a

better understanding that like, I wouldn't
want things to be like the way they were

before, it was definitely not sustainable
or healthy, definitely an element of that.

But what I'm saying is there, there's
still some, whether, I don't know,

maybe I'm still in the process of
putting some of it back together,

but there's still feels like.

There are things that were in place that
were held together, obviously somewhat

okay, that seem to be highly functional.

There's a level of functionality,
that's what it is, that I don't have now

post...

Joe: I think that's the point about
good enough is that I don't really know

who Robbie Williams is, but isn't he
still playing shows to 50, 000 people?

Ali: Yeah.

Joe: So, that's good enough.

That's what you get.

You don't, if you wanna lie in bed
in between and you've got enough

money to do that, that's fine.

That doesn't mean you're not
getting on with your life.

You are.

Mm-Hmm.

Like, he's still doing the thing that he's
wanted to do with his career and stuff.

So that's the most you get, I think.

Mm-Hmm.

Sam: How old are his kids right now?

Ali: That's, oh, he's got like f like
there was one that I think it is about.

10.

And then all the way down
to like little, little ones.

He's got, yeah, he, yeah.

Sam: Cause he was famously the
person who brought Twitter into

the birthing room and, uh, yeah.

Yeah.

Let's not get too distracted with Robbie.

The reason I mentioned that is that
like, that wasn't that long ago.

No.

So his kids aren't going to be super old.

And like, surely he, I think one of
the things that maybe good enough,

I'm well on board with it for sure,
but it might've crossed his mind.

I could be more engaged here between.

Time's with my kids or whatever, like, I
mean, I can relate to that as a parent,

like, could I be doing more or of a
better quality or whatever that's, I

don't, you know, the good enough has to
sit alongside the aspiration, So I, for

my, for me, for my money, breakdowns are
there for a reason and I don't think the

idea is to fully put it back together.

Even if you could,
because that would be...

Joe: Had you ever gone
into psychosis before?

No.

Yeah, it's a rearrangement.

Ali: Yeah, it's a huge rearrangement.

Joe: Did it get scary in there?

Ali: Yes.

Joe: Are you scared?

I think you said you
thought your son was dead?

Ali: Oh, yeah.

So you want to, like,
the story of the site.

Sam: I didn't know that part.

Ali: Oh, okay.

So, yeah.

Joe: No, I mean, you're
saying you haven't recovered.

So I'm, what I'm asking is what happened?

Oh,

so what, so the, in the lead up to
the breakdown, there was a series of.

compounding factors and work
and relationships and life.

And as my psychologist would
say, like, it's like trying to

hold a beach ball underwater.

And at some point your arms
are going to get tired.

And it is going to hit you in the
face and then, hello, you're going

to deal with some childhood trauma
now that you've really, you've been

repressing for all these years.

So that's what had happened.

And the stress had then got to the
point where I was no longer sleeping.

There's no sleeping then obviously
affects the mood with bipolar and

then triggered a manic episode.

And I, I knew like the day
before something wasn't right.

I called my mum.

And I sort of was oscillating wildly
between crying and being catatonic almost,

and then just crying hysterically and
then catatonic, and I just said to my

mum, something's really wrong, and she
didn't really quite know what to make

of it, and it was sort of like, you
know, I just like, I don't think I can

go to work tomorrow, like I just don't
know what's Something's really wrong.

I just didn't know what it was,
but something was really wrong.

And anyway, that night, again,
I hadn't slept for days and

days and days at this point.

And I was awake all night and I started
having delusions that my son was dead.

I thought he died and
he was at school camp.

I was convinced he was dead.

I was trying to call the school camp at
like three in the morning, like trying

to make arrangements for his funeral.

Like it was just, it was awful.

Um, and then I'm.

Um, you know, and this is, this is
something I haven't really talked

about a lot, but at that point
I was like, well, my son's gone.

What's the point?

What is the point?

And so I made plans, I
say loosely, to end it.

and I'd left some garbled voicemail
messages on my sister's phone who

mercifully, when she in the morning was
like, Oh God, something's really wrong.

I know what this means.

And so she's like, I'm going
to take you to the doctor.

Like something, you
just, something's wrong.

And then she picks me up.

And I'm in full glam because
I want to look good going out.

Yeah.

Right?

I know, for sure.

So, because at this stage I'm
like manic, I'm, I'm not there.

I'm just...

Get on the war gear.

I was like floridly manic.

And you know, so I, you know,
sequins and full face makeup

at like seven in the morning.

It's going to help.

Yeah.

She takes me to the GP and the
GP was like, uh, you're floridly

manic straight to hospital.

And then that was what...

Great.

Yes.

And then I...

Was, you know, impatient
after that for a little bit.

I think I told work that way.

I was like, I'm just having a couple,
just a couple of mental health days.

I'll be back next week.

I think it was like a Wednesday.

Um, and I was in hospital six weeks.

If that was any indication
of my state of mind.

Did they not know

that you were bipolar before that?

Ali: Yeah, they knew, but like, I just
never, I'd never had an episode like that.

Yeah.

Um, so you went from

Joe: type two to type one or something.

Ali: No, no, so sometimes you can
have these like protracted manic

episodes even though you have type 2.

Sam: Ooh, technicalities, inside baseball.

Joe: What was your plan to,
how were you going to kill

yourself in the sequent dress?

Ali: I was going to go in the bath.

Sam: Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Illuminati

Ali: sacrifice.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Which was, went to years of then not
even being able to get in a bath.

Like, yes.

Oh, really?

Very recently, I've been able
to start taking baths again.

Cause it was just a fear of like,
Oh, this is not a safe place.

Sam: Okay.

If it's not true.

Joe: That would have been tragic.

So a complete delusion that
something had happened to your son.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness.

Leads to you dying.

A real.

Your son not having a mum.

Sam: Yeah.

It's actually a Romeo and
Juliet, but even worse.

Yeah, you didn't have
the right information.

You didn't have the right information.

That is, that is an asymmetry, that is
a tragic asymmetry, but in the end, I

mean, the right intervention occurred.

Joe: But maybe that's, maybe that's
what you've had such a hard time getting

over is thinking your son was dead.

Ali: Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, when I then, like, I
know where my sister picked me up

and she was explaining, but he's not.

And I was like, Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Was it,

Sam: did that come as a relief?

Were you able to onboard that?

Ali: Yeah, it was weird.

It was weird.

Cause I was still, I sort
of really wasn't with it.

Like I really didn't know what
was going on at that point at all.

so yeah, they were like, they
were able to explain to me and

I was like, oh, okay, he's safe.

He's fine.

Sam: Did you feel better at that point?

Ali: And I was like
weirdly okay with it all.

I was like, okay, don't mind guys.

Like I'm fine.

Joe: I had a similar thing.

Yeah.

that's relatable.

I had a similar thing last
time I was psychotic where I,

someone whose funeral I'd missed.

Uh, and I felt really guilty about it
because I'd had a big night, this is

when I was still drinking and using,
had a big night and missed his funeral.

Yep, classic stuff.

Once I became psychotic, I was
convinced she was still alive.

I was trying to contact her family members
to talk to them about how she wasn't dead.

Oh my god.

Which is, that's the unfortunate thing
about psychosis is it puts you in

some very embarrassing and upsetting
to other people circumstances.

And it was just because I felt so
much guilt and shame about missing

that person I'd loved's funeral.

And then obviously you...

As a mum, it's just that
normal mum level of attachment,

like the most important thing.

Sam: I think any parent out there
could actually relate to more

of that than you might think.

Ali: yeah, like not wanting to,
never wanting to live through that.

That's not a thing.

Still, even now, like that's not
something I want to live through.

I don't ever want to think of that.

Sam: No, no, no, that's right.

And you can't spend your
life, I mean, despite.

Seneca's advice to, you know, always
contemplate these possibilities, but

like, it's like, Jesus, dude, he's
like, he's a bit hardcore sometimes.

Joe: Yeah, but kids were dying a
lot more often back in ancient Rome.

I guess that's true.

Sam: But, but, but it was also advice that
was designed to bring the consciousness.

Yeah.

Joe: Marcus Aurelius says the
same thing in meditation too.

I don't want to be a changed man
because of the loss of a child.

Yeah, which is just going too far.

Sam: I just want to get on with it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right.

That's

Joe: right.

Anyway, we're...

Oh, no, no, no, I don't think...

Stoics don't need to
intrude on Ali's story.

No, I don't

Sam: think it's a, I don't think
it's a stray because the part

that any parent could relate to
is the delusion that they're dead.

Yeah.

This occurs to, I firmly
believe, every parent.

Yeah.

Like...

And they're in the next room.

Yeah,

Joe: yeah, yeah, especially when
they're babies and you're like, is this,

you're checking if they're breathing?

Ali: Yeah, like, is this normal?

Is this, you know, you worry
about every little thing.

Anyway, so that's, well,

Sam: the catastrophe we
fear has already occurred.

Yes.

Joe: But things become
exaggerated in mania, psychosis.

Sam: That's right.

That's right.

Joe: Yeah, you got rocked.

You got rocked, bro.

Sam: You got rocked hard.

Joe: You're actually fine.

I mean, you're still doing the
same job that you're doing.

you're now doing this podcast, you've been
a great mum, your kid's getting on with

their life, like, in reality, you're fine.

It is appropriate.

Ali: Yeah, oh yeah, like there's

Joe: So what, what's the bit that doesn't
feel, you're saying, just low energy?

There is it, it's not a

Sam: Will I achieve my former glory?

Joe: Yeah.

I, there was no form.

This is the glory now.

Ali: Yeah.

No, I, I feel like in some, so many
ways things are so much better.

It's not agreed, but I, it's in a lot of
ways everything feels a little bit harder.

Yeah.

And that's what it is.

Joe: That's the getting older stuff.

I think like everything, me
and Sam are older than you.

Once you're over 40, mate,
you're, you're always tired.

Sam: I, I look, I don't know.

I maintain some hope here that age.

Are you not always tired?

Joe: Yeah, of course, but 21
year olds are not always tired.

I got to tell you, and
they're rarely tired.

That's true.

Ali: But like, no, it's just like, like,
it's really, I remember it's not fair,

like the really simple little things
that I just would never have batted an

eyelid or thought twice about doing.

Yeah.

I become so has, has in my mind become
so much harder, so much like to dig

so much deeper to be able to do a
lot of things that I was able to do.

I feel a lot easier and I say this as
someone who's never been a particularly

high energy person outside of maybe I've
always run, but not a high energy person.

So, but I still was able
to do a lot more like.

Like, I, I feel like, you know, even if
I look back and, you know, working 50,

60 hours a week doing overtime, you know,
Taking care of, you know, small child.

I was like baking
sourdough on the weekend.

I was making like, I was
doing stuff from scratch.

I had this whole thing about doing
everything from scratch because

it was not, that's the insanity.

Yeah.

There was like this insanity of, I didn't
feel anything was worth doing unless

I was suffering for it, which is, you
know, like now I can see is madness.

This sort of functionality I
can do without, but I'm like, I

would, what it would be like to
make something from scratch again.

Joe: Me and Sam are thinking that,
well, it'd be therapeutic to do that.

I think I know what you're thinking.

I am.

Yes, maybe the first time ever.

I'm fascinated.

I think we're thinking that Ali
is suffering under the illusion.

That there was some better former self.

Yeah, we are on it.

Actually the best self is this version.

It's just a bit

Sam: more

Ali: chill.

It's a bit more chill, but it's also
a bit like a bit slower moving these

like everything's just a bit And I
don't know if it's so much an age thing

because it's only been a few years
Yeah, but it's a short time really.

Joe: I feel like.

Could it be meds related?

Ali: It could be like, I mean,
I've had like iron checked, meds

checked, like everything like it's
probably the best it's gonna be.

Be right, like that's like physically,
as far as energy goes, it just feels

like there's some sort of motivation
to do with that energy that is,

is harder to tap into these days.

That's what it is.

Sam: I think I know the
feeling you're talking about.

Yeah.

It is interesting to be in
agreement, Joe, we're both.

Kicking back and being the therapeutic
experts to a degree and diagnosing

and feeling quite smug about it.

It's fun, isn't it?

Yeah.

Joe: This is Ali at her best.

She doesn't realize

it.

Sam: She doesn't realize it.

And also I was thinking of your coach.

The coach metaphor with your therapist
you've talked about, sometimes

you just need a good bigging up.

And I was thinking to myself, this would
be an appropriate time, Joe, I think,

as much as you and I have a real hair
shirt and like whip view of what therapy,

you know, therapy should be hardcore.

But I think we're okay with
saying you're crushing it.

So feel good.

Who's crushing it?

Ali.

Yeah.

At this point, at this point,
at this point in your life,

Joe: I never knew the old Ali who bakes

Sam: sourdough.

Yeah.

See,

Ali: to me.

Like Ali, old Ali was, like, had
a full functioning, you know,

farm going in her backyard.

That is cool.

Joe: She had a successful
Instagram account for a garden

with, uh, someone famous.

Who was that writing to you?

Great.

Ali: Yeah.

Like, it was just...

Who was it?

You

Joe: gotta tell us.

Ali: Oh, it waigs Nella.

We've talked about it a lot.

Oh yeah, that's right.

You

Sam: had, you had the endorsement.

Yeah.

From the great one.

Okay.

Joe: Maybe old Ali was better.

Yeah.

Ali: Maybe like, I mean something to it.

Yeah.

Like, alright,

Sam: here's another theory.

Yeah.

Let's not dismiss your feeling.

Anyway.

Let's validate this feeling.

Ali: This is like, I was always, yeah.

I was high achiever at school.

Yeah.

I feel like I had a lot
of unrealized potential.

Like a lot of ADHD
private schools, burnout.

Yeah.

Like a lot of that high ability burnout.

Yeah.

So there was a lot of that.

Yeah.

I still feel like even with all the
things and the mistakes that I made, I

still was able to get the really good
job, you know, I still did things.

Really fucking well, like I did that,
and I did, and it wasn't, and it didn't

feel hard, and so, I, everything just
feels a little bit harder, and it's

not that I, yeah, I'm not doing great
things with my life now, it's, but

I'm not making sourdough bread on my
weekends, I'm, you know, I want to spend

a lot of my time, like Robbie, in bed.

Sure,

Joe: sounds like you're less annoying.

Yeah.

Yeah!

More relatable.

I don't want to hang out with the person
with the flowering veggie garden and

making the sourdough from scratch.

Sam: Actually, the veggie garden
is cool, but the sourdough, like,

this is your sourdough, Ali.

Now, look at what we're
making from scratch.

Ali: Yeah, but I suppose
like my bandwidth...

Felt bigger, is what it was.

That, that, like, I had
an enormous capacity.

Even with a kid, yeah.

Even with a kid, I was
still doing an awful lot.

Joe: So, here's one for you.

My mate Eckhart Tolle reckons that
we have two phases in our life.

One when we're expanding in life, and
we're putting more and more out there.

Yep.

And then one when we start
contracting towards death.

Ali: And you might...

Oh, I'm in the contraction
then, if you're looking at it.

Like, that seems so obvious to
me, that I'm in a contraction.

Joe: Well, here's another theory,
that maybe once you decide to jump

in the bath and kill yourself...

You went over the edge of
death and you've come back.

Yes, it's the hero's journey.

It's like, Oh, well, I could be dead
because I thought my kid was dead.

And now here I am, but I'm not, I'm not
getting out of bed at 6 in the morning.

This is

Ali: like 10 to my kombucha scoby.

You

Joe: already decided to check out.

So this is like your afterlife.

The hero is like,

Sam: this reminds me very strongly
of Joseph Campbell, the hero with a

thousand faces, like the hero's journey.

Right.

And one of the.

Stages is like, like approaching
the innermost cave and a feeling of

impending doom, a feeling of crisis
with a feeling of, uh, life and

death, like an, you know, the ordeal
and the symbolic death and rebirth,

atonement, and then the road back.

To reality and back to the ordinary world.

Mm.

Which is, and the road back to
the ordinary world is also beset

with perils and, uh, setbacks.

And one of the many, you know, perils
we can face is a disappointment with

the ordinary world when we return to it.

Mm-Hmm.

, you know, things like that.

you know, I was thinking like this
is a very compelling story and it

made me grateful that I'd had like a
smaller breakdown and had it earlier.

Mm-Hmm.

But I can really relate.

Um, not to the, not the florid mania,
but like the lack of sleep, losing

your moorings with reality, like the,
the delusion starting to come in, the

chronic anxiety and panic attacks.

So this went on for about a week and
yeah, I was falling apart and like,

yeah, it just couldn't mentally.

It was just, you could, yeah, you could
feel yourself coming apart at the seams.

I can relate to all of that.

And I was thinking, what
was I like before that?

What was I like after?

And yeah, God, man, it was a very long
rebuilding process and still going on

now, really, when I think about it.

Ali: Like I've watched like a lot of

Sam: that was like 23 years ago.

Ali: Yeah.

Like a lot of video, like, you know,
people who've gone through like

this sort of, like a similar sort of
experience and they talk about like

the healing phase and like, and how.

In healing, you do need that time to
rest and you are still healing and it

takes an extraordinary amount of time.

And like, I'm like, am I, yeah, am I
being a bit lazy or am I healing or

like, you know, I mean like it's been,
it was a few years ago now, so, you

know, for someone who was always doing
an awful lot, it's like, okay, when's

this going to fucking end so I can
get on and do the things I want to do.

Are we done yet?

I want to do like, that was, that was
the first thing I said to my psychologist

when You know, he'd said to me, like
when I, you know, I wanted a timeline,

I wanted to, I wanted, you know, I was
like, how long is this going to take?

You know, he's like, and
you know, count six months.

Are we in here six months?

And he said to me, he's like, no,
like, you know, like realistically,

As in therapy, yeah, I thought
I'd be done in six months.

And he's like, he goes, if you were
super diligent, he goes, I can't say that

you couldn't get it done in six months.

But he said, realistically,
he goes, I'd say it's going to

be a few years, three years.

And I was like, I'm going to
beat, I'm going to do it in two.

And he's like, good luck.

I mean, I'm in my, I've
just moved past two years.

Oh no, I just, I'm taking a little
considered break for a couple of months.

Joe: So you haven't quite got to
two years and you've stopped going.

Ali: No, no, no.

It was more than two years.

And I, I decided to take a little
break just for a couple of months,

just to, because I've had some
physical stuff to focus on.

Joe: maybe this

Ali: attitude

Joe: to your break.

So, the breakdown is just that you're
conditioning as a private school girl

with a successful businessman father.

And you're like, I need to crack
on with things and just get on with

it, get this done, get on with it.

But actually, maybe what
you've moved into is a more

contemplative phase of your life.

But because you have no
spiritual life, you haven't been

able to always the hard sell.

You haven't been able to reflect or
go a bit deeper and understand the

slowing down a bit from some other.

Beyond your rational materialist way
of thinking something deeper is maybe

calling to you from this quieter space
But you don't have a way to access

it because you've completely shut

Sam: down.

I don't know I don't know.

I feel like it's being accessed here.

But that's part of the work
we're doing here I think

Joe: but yeah, but it butts up
against the hard wall with Ali because

Sam: Oh, yeah, you might be right.

I'm sure there's barriers galore.

Joe: It's hard to explain
rationally, but you can't really

explain your psychosis rationally.

You thought the kid was dead.

Yeah, I know.

And you believed that.

But like...

It's not...

You left the rational.

Ali: I left the rational, but I...

Joe: you were no longer a high
achieving private school girl, you

were suddenly in another realm.

But the rational explanation is...

That's what Sam's talking about
with the hero's journey, you

went into the darkest cave.

That's right.

But the rational explanation is...

And the brightest treasure is
in the darkest cave, right?

Sam: That's right.

Ali: Exactly.

Is the, yeah, like I said, the rational
explanation is I have a mood disorder.

Yeah.

I had had lack of sleep.

I was on an enormous stress
during the time, but you have a

chemical imbalance in the brain,

Joe: experie.

That makes sense.

But phenomenology, phenomenologically,
what you experienced was not

just a bunch of symptoms like or

Ali: I say it is.

Sam: That's how I see it.

Yeah.

Joe: I'm less.

Well, let's get you back here
when you're in psychosis and

see what's really going on.

But that

Sam: doesn't reveal it either, though.

No.

Joe: No one moment reveals it.

There's no rational way into that state.

Ali: I don't

Joe: see, like I, you left
the logical, you left, logic

is only one way of thinking.

Ali: So do you, do you think that
there's meaning within psychosis?

Joe: much meaning, oh my
god, it's all meaning.

Well, this is a

Sam: theological one now, because
is there meaning in suffering?

Like, even Christians
are divided on that one.

Yeah, I, I,

Ali: there's no, I found no meaning.

Yeah.

Other than it was a potentially a wake
up call to do things a bit better.

Yeah.

Joe: But everything is humming.

Opportunity to rebuild.

Yeah.

An opportunity to rebuild.

Everything is humming with meaning.

When you're in psychosis,
what's lacking That's true.

Is logical thought, but
there's no lack of meaning.

Sam: Well, but that's just it.

I think Ally's not asking for everything
to be imbued with meaning at all times.

No.

So I think she's happy to settle
for It can't function like that.

Like a degree of

Joe: mundanity end up in hospital.

No one can

Sam: function like that.

Yeah.

But she's not asking for like
everything to feel profound.

No.

She just wants to get more done.

Yes.

Ali: Yeah, . I really do.

There's thing, there's an enormous,
like, you know, people, you know, I see

people suffer when they retire because
there's a lack of, oh yeah, that sucks.

You know?

Whereas I cannot wait because there
is not enough time in my day Yes.

To do the things I already do.

You've already planned your retirement.

I've already, I've, I would have,
I know that feeling would happily

not work another day in my life
because I could fill my days.

Easily.

Easily with the things I want to do
with my life that are not work related.

And that's why I'm totally resentful
of the fact that I have to work because

I'd be in my garden, I'd be reading,
I'd be reading all the books, I'd be

making all the things, I'd be snapping.

Yeah, exactly.

But I'd be working in a way that felt
valuable to the way I want to live

my life, which is just not conducive,
you know, to a capitalist life.

Sam: That's right.

Yeah.

You'd be making clothes,
you'd be baking bread.

Absolutely.

Doing all that

Ali: cool stuff.

Yeah.

Homestead in the northern

Joe: suburbs.

That's how you feel and that's
what you're looking forward to.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You're fine then.

Yeah.

And when I worked on the psych
ward, they'd just be like,

oh, people are future focused.

That's the term they always use.

They're future focused.

I would say that's fucked.

Like that's, you've stepped out of the
present moment and you're now living in

Sam: something that doesn't

Joe: exist.

But basically the psych system
wanted to get people future focused.

So as long as you're thinking, oh,
I can work 20 more years in my dead

end job and then I'll get to...

No, so

Ali: I'm not, this is, for me it

Joe: feels like...

To me that's like, oh my God, I've fallen

Sam: for the...

No, Ali's been thoroughly red pilled
in the traditional sense, but yeah.

Ali: Yeah, no, I feel like it's very
much, I'm not going to get to do that.

I'm not going to live
long enough to do it.

And I'm, I'm annoyed with that.

So it's like, well, what's the point?

And I feel like there's a lot
of things I'm not starting

Joe: because that's making you tired.

The illusion of your imminent death.

Yeah,

Ali: because like for, I mean, I've
never, I would say more therapy needed.

I'm not a, I've never been
like a well person physically.

I've always, there's always been,
there's always something going on.

And I just feel like even when
you were like a teenager, you

had Yeah, there was stuff.

And I just feel like I was never, I've
always had this feeling, I'm never, you've

always resented your body, haven't you?

Yes.

And I'm not gonna make old bones.

I've just never.

See myself living to old age.

I don't, I just, I don't know.

It doesn't feel, it just
doesn't feel like it's...

See, now you're

Sam: being superstitious.

Yeah, but you

Joe: also have the mind that
thought your son was dead.

Yeah, no, but...

So your mind is like one of the
worst things to like base reality on.

Ali: don't, yeah, like I said, that's,
it's not a rational thought, like I

have absolutely no evidence for that.

Other than...

But when you left rational thought...

The feeling in the bones.

Yeah, the feeling in the bones,
but they're just not made for...

Joe: But when you convinced that your
son was dead, you weren't curious after,

like, what was the meaning of that?

Or you weren't...

No.

You haven't been curious about
that time that you left...

Have you talked about it in therapy?

No.

But you left rational thought
and came back and was like, Oh,

that was just a lack of sleep.

It's like, Oh no, you access

Sam: another reality.

I think there's a strong, there's
a strong man going on here though.

I just, look, I agree that the details
of psychosis can be revealing a

diagnostic and therapeutic and like
we can, it's much deeper than that.

No,

Joe: same as, same as an
LSD trip is much deeper than

Sam: what you saw.

I don't know.

Maybe it is.

Ali: Maybe it isn't.

I don't know.

I, there's stuff I've seen like
on drugs that I just think there

was absolutely, there was nothing
meaningful about not seeing my face in

a fucking mirror for like six hours.

That was, it was horrible.

It was like 15, really not
well prepared for that.

I mean, when

Joe: I say cool, I mean star studded.

It shows you that the way you
perceive reality without taking acid

is just a filtering process that
presents something that makes some

sense, but it's not actually true.

No,

Ali: but the overwhelming feeling I had.

Because if your

Joe: face wasn't in the mirror,
then it wasn't in the mirror.

So it's only perception,
there's no objective

Ali: reality.

The overwhelming feeling I had when
I looked in the mirror was that I'm

going to be in so much trouble with
my parents because I've lost my face.

Wow.

That was what it was.

Sam: But what I'm saying is
that you had lost your face.

Joe: If you

Sam: went home without a face,

Joe: you would be...

What the fuck was going on, Ali?

I'd

Ali: just taken some
mushrooms and that was the...

Joe: And where was your
face in that reality?

Where was it?

Reality is not the day to day
reality that everyone functions

Sam: on.

Well Joe, you know, I lost my
face without taking shrooms.

I was working at the National Hotel in
Geelong, and this was, this was a good

time to have a breakdown, and I almost
did it, but I didn't, because I'd already

had one before, and I was able to kind
of figure it out, and step around it,

but like, because yeah, I was working
by myself in this, and I was living by

myself up above this pub, and I was doing
the six nights, and Yeah, it wasn't good.

I actually, at one point, I had three
jobs, saving money to go to India.

And yeah, you know, a little
too much drinking and not enough

sleep and all that going on.

But then one night, I think it
was like a Monday night, and

I let myself out of the pub.

It was closed and I had to go out
and get some food or something.

And then I caught my face in like
a mirror, like just kind of on

the edge of the stairs, like an
old ornamental, you know, anyway.

And like the mirror was in sections, so.

Already the self was fractured,
but I was like, I don't

recognize this person at all.

And then I was like looking
at it longer and I was like.

There, there was no face, like,
yeah, yeah, it's pretty strange,

Ali: but it's a strange feeling.

It was a strange feeling, but
then like, yeah, it wore off and

then I was like, Oh, thank God I'm
not in trouble with my character.

Sam: I will put it to you.

Cause you would have
been in so much trouble.

I would have

Ali: been in so much
trouble for losing my face.

Sam: Where did you put your face?

Ali: Come on, just retrace your steps.

This is just another thing you fucked up.

Yeah, that is so

Joe: good.

That's just the amusing
way you processed it.

But what happened is No, there's
meaning in these remarks.

It points to something extraordinary.

No, I

Sam: think you have a
deep sense of failure.

It points to something

Joe: extraordinary, which is that
consensual reality that we all

agree on so that we can function
together is only one reality.

Okay.

When you step outside it
through drug experiences or

psychosis or whatever, you don't.

Uh, you're not in some fake reality,
you're not, you're just in a different

Sam: reality.

Okay, okay.

But we don't need to get too far out.

Like, I, I, I agree that there's some
truth in all of that, but like, to

me, it's therapeutically revealing.

My face is gone, but my first
thought is I'm going to be in

trouble for losing my face.

And then like with, and who, with who?

Ali: Yes.

Exactly.

And that was, and like,
this is therapy stuff.

Yeah.

That is very much therapy stuff in that.

Like that, that would have been a
very, like disappointing my family.

That would have been a

Joe: huge.

You missed the point.

This is Pat, no, I think the point,
you missed the point about, I think

Sam: you have a deep fear of failure
and of not living up to other people's

expectations, their faith wasn't there.

Oh, but think about what that could mean.

That wasn't an illusion.

No, but analyze the symbolism of it.

That wasn't an illusion.

I didn't say it was an illusion.

Joe: So we're both agreeing that
reality is much more mutable than

Sam: our reality The brain
was experiencing that.

Like, that was what was
happening in the consciousness.

Things are not as

Joe: solid as people assume
in day to day reality.

Sam: Right.

They're just not.

I'm pointing to the thin
sliver of reality as well.

I'm just not as determined.

I mean, look, we can probably meet in
the middle here somewhere, but I tend

to think the profound lesson was already
there in like this experience of losing

the self, really, and, and going, I'm
actually, but the self still exists and

will get in trouble for losing the self.

To self.

It's So who are you anyway?

Like that's what's going on there.

And how old are you at that point?

Like, I'm 15, 16.

Yeah.

That's the perfect time to be
asking those questions anyway.

Yeah.

Especially with a, with
a, a hard background.

And then fast forward to 37, did you say?

Yeah.

It was

Ali: 36, 37 when?

No, 37 when I had, know what I mean?

Yeah.

Had my breakdown.

Sam: Yeah.

And that's a really great time of
life to start feeling a shit load

of pressure to be more than you are.

Yes.

Ali: So, yeah, and very much so
like, and watching, yeah, people

who have, you know, done things in a
very different way to how I did them.

Like I had baby quite young and did
things, you know, the wrong way around.

I'd had, you know, failed relationships,
did not follow the script.

She

Joe: just said wrong, the wrong way.

Yeah, I know, it's very

Ali: revealing too.

Well, yeah, well, exactly.

Like that's, that's the thing.

Sam: you said that in a self
aware way, but she is, I agree.

Yeah.

I'm taking

Ali: notes.

Yeah.

No, yeah.

Like I, I, it was, I'd perceived it to be
the wrong way around or done things, you

know, you know, have made choices that
were not, yeah, things didn't work out

the way I'd imagined them to for myself.

That's a thing a lot of people
struggle with in that the imagined

future they had for themselves.

And I think given my upbringing,
given my, I suppose, natural

aptitudes and things like.

That my goals were really
lofty, really lofty.

and probably all sorts of completely
unrealistic, but, um, but really lofty.

And I, I, yeah, obviously
had not reached them in a

Sam: lot.

I guarantee you, if we compared
notes about early twenties, they'd be

similar, like the loftiness would be

Ali: similar.

Yeah.

I was going to do great
things and I'd been told.

You can do really great things because,
you know, and I had a lot of results and

things from school and Reinforcements
showing me I could do really great.

There was a degree of
evidence to suggest this.

Yeah, so there was everything was
sort of like, okay, this, this

is the path, these, you know, and

Joe: And you didn't know the whole
time that actually you're a mystic.

But you're just not curious about it.

So you've been trying to make things
work on the plane of consensual reality,

which is not where you function.

Sam: But we also have to remain social
beings, as we said in the last episode,

and like unfortunately, we have to live
in the consensual reality as well as it's

Joe: functional.

But if we, if we take it to be.

All encompassing, then we
suffer, and we suffer as

neurodivergent people particularly.

Oh, and also it's not, well, our
experience is not a consistent reality

that everyone else can agree on.

And that's not your organic experience.

And we can also

Sam: affront drugs or no drugs.

That's right.

And we can also affront that
reality by doing things.

We can contest that reality and we do,
everyone contests it and reinforces it

in different ways at all, at all moments.

And one of the ways of contesting the
consensual reality is to have a breakdown.

It's a great rejection of it.

And,

Joe: but I would say maybe you haven't
been curious enough about what it means.

Ali: I just don't feel the
need to ascribe meaning to it.

Well, I think, yeah, go on.

Yeah.

I just, I, I don't, I've just never felt
like outside of any, you know, medical.

Explanation for what happened, which,
you know, there is an explanation that

that was more than enough to satisfy my
interest in what happened and everything

outside of that was then about, okay,
well, this happened, what do I do now?

And then how do I put it back together?

What do I need to do with my life?

What do I, how do, you know, therapy,
medication, whatever it is, you

know, these are the things I need to
be focusing on structure, routine,

things that, yeah, like, and.

And getting back, you know, to a place
that's healthy and that wasn't, yeah,

like I said, the motivation was, yeah,
again, I suppose more towards getting

back into the swing of things, or at
least into a life that I had imagined

for myself that I would be happy with.

And yeah, like for the most part, you
know, I am it's, it's, and so, yeah,

I just never felt the need to have a
greater understanding of what I went

through other than like, Oh, it was
just a thing in the same way that I,

if I broke a bone, no, I really do.

I think like, you know, like
something happens medically.

To you, it's the same,
you know, sore back.

Like I don't feel like broken
your bone doesn't take you into

Joe: the the altered reality.

I'm

Ali: gonna have to, but
obviously I disagree.

Go aside a little bit with that.

Like I've had, you know, been
dealing with some chronic pain Yeah.

With a back injury.

Mm-Hmm.

And that absolutely
can mind altering Yeah.

Can take you to a place
of altered reality and.

Thinking that, you know, extreme
pain really can alter your thinking.

Have you had some ECT

Sam: or any

Ali: of that?

No, I haven't.

No, I've had a friend who had that.

It was really successful for him.

But, um, but yeah, no, I just, so for,
for chronic pain, I think, but again,

I don't describe any meaning to it.

Like it's just a shit thing.

That's, I have to deal with.

Joe: You think that you haven't
recovered, but actually you've,

you focused on getting on with it.

You're good enough and
you're getting on with it.

Ali: Yeah, oh yeah, like, I mean,
highly functional, I've been

Joe: in work for years, you know,
maybe you're missing the depth.

of something quite profound
that's all around you.

No,

Ali: I, I, well, the thing
I miss is the energy.

That's what I, like, that's the thing I
think I miss is this energy that I feel

like that I had, which maybe I did, maybe
I didn't have it as much as I remember it

to be, but at least it, I definitely feel

Joe: lower on energy.

So what I'm saying is maybe be, don't
worry about doing more stuff, maybe lean

more into reflection and contemplation.

Sure,

Sam: but can I, sure, look, you
might be right in the long run.

But I would prefer

Joe: to take the...

Especially if you agree
that you're now entering the

contraction phase of your life.

Yeah.

So you need to start understanding your
non existence, which is a good place

to enter some more deeper thinking.

Sam: And parenting is going to shift
your priorities as well, and all

sorts of things are going to happen.

But, like, regardless of
breakdowns occurring or not, but...

And the, the, you know, the growing
understanding and sort of intimacy

with mortality and all of that.

But I think that goes back
a long way with you though.

Mm-Hmm.

Like there's not a new thing.

No intonations of

Ali: mortality.

I think it's something you've been No,
that's something I've been thinking about

my whole life, living with for a long

Sam: time.

Yeah.

And.

If anything, I think middle age
will actually provide a degree

of relief from a lot of that.

Um, so, but what I'm interested in though,
I want to take the patient's own words

and the patient's own state, stated goals,
which are quite modest, I think, and I

want to work with those a little bit,
which is, I just want, maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe those energy levels, I'm
overstating it, but you feel

that they could be better.

Okay.

I mean, that's, I think that's
a reasonable starting point.

Now, how, how you pursue that, it
could end up where Joe's talking.

Contemplation.

So yeah, maybe a commitment to meditation
could do wonders in this situation.

equally, I do think that the...

I'm agreeing with Joe, the episodic
details I think might be interesting

and the dealing with the mortality of
the child I think will be an interesting

one to talk about in therapy and
also connecting that with your own

feeling of mortality earlier in life.

And there's some dots that
need joining, I think.

And, but something is sapping your energy.

I think that's probably true.

And it might be unmet
expectations within yourself.

It might be ones that
are still coming from

Ali: without.

It's so easy just to blame.

Oh, it's work.

Cause that's what I would attribute it to.

It's a good thing to blame.

Yeah.

I mean, it doesn't, it's
certainly not helping.

You're not wrong.

You know, I don't think it, it
certainly doesn't help, but like

I, it is mentally fatiguing.

There is.

Yeah.

There is something, yeah, that is
sapping my energy or just taking

up an awful lot of that bandwidth.

Joe: More than once.

I think you might have had a
bit of a higher calling and a

bit of a deeper calling and you
maybe have hung up the phone too

Sam: soon.

I don't know.

I think doing this is...

Joe: Because being functional at
work and functional as a mum and

functional in relationships is fine,
but it's not the whole enchilada.

There's a lot more to reality
and consciousness than that.

Sure.

Sam: agree.

I would say by the same token,
I think everyone has that higher

calling to some degree, like I agree.

We've all got a role

Joe: to play.

But when it knocks you, when it
really rips you and throws you into

hospital, it's like pay attention.

No, indeed.

It's

Sam: the call to adventure.

No, you know the T Rex
journey better than you said.

Yeah, no, it is the call to adventure.

And of course, the first thing is
we refuse the call to adventure.

And like, that's what...

Well, that's where Ali is now.

And that's what therapy is all about.

But the thing is, all of us
are refusing each adventure

as it emerges in every moment.

Like, like, it's not just...

This one's happening and you and I,
well, we've gotten past the refusal.

Well, no, there's a refusal
waiting for me later today.

You know, like we have to face our own
refusal again and again and get past it.

Like, I don't want to brush my teeth.

I don't want to go to bed.

I don't want to cut my

Joe: nails.

Sam: You and I know about that.

Ali: It's the day to day.

It's so

Joe: hard.

I'll say this Ali, like after my last
manic episode and psychosis, all I

wanted to do Do was get back on my feet.

Yes.

Mm-Hmm.

Get back to work.

Ignore what had happened, go back
and work in the film industry and

get my business back on its feet.

Be yourself.

And I did that and I was successful.

Mm-Hmm.

And it left me feeling flat.

Mm-Hmm.

And it's only when I
started meditating and Sure.

Um, doing my addiction recovery
work and gaining a spiritual life

was the only time that I started to
resolve some of this stuff that had.

It happened in the psychosis and in
the mania and leading up to them and

just trying, before that trying to be
functional and have a mortgage and have

a business and be a dad and it was only
when I started to be slightly curious

about a spiritual life was suddenly some
sustenance came into this part of me

that was so thirsty, you know, it was
just so thirsty, it always had been.

And it was only when I nourished it
with some spirituality that now I can

understand my bipolar in a completely
different way and I can understand

psychosis in a different way and I can
understand all those acid trips in a

different way and all those mushroom
trips and the ketamine and all of that.

But

Sam: the meditation's been
better for you than all of that.

Joe: The meditation, this
is the Ram Dass passes.

You work out, you go to, you take the
elevator to the top of the mountain.

And then you see something extraordinary
that's just so beautiful you

can't believe it and everything's
resolved and it's all there.

But then you come down.

Meditation is what Ram Dass worked out
is the way to just trudge slowly up

the side of that same exact mountain.

Sure.

Ali: So what you're saying is that
nourishing that spiritual side is that's

the thing that's filling your cup up.

And I can understand like you having
nothing to draw on and that was

a big thing in like in therapy is
like it was making sure you have

things that fill your cup up so
that you do have stuff to draw on.

And I feel like.

Whether the, maybe there's just
not enough that's filling me up.

Cause I feel like your

Joe: spirituality could be as
simple as a five hour bushwalk.

Yes.

And then people say, Oh, I just
felt like myself dropped away and

I was just connected to everything.

Ali: And that spirituality doesn't

Joe: have to be, it doesn't
have to be a religious

Ali: text.

Yeah, no, that's, that's the,
those are the exact things that

I've absolutely wanted to do.

And we were told to like write down all
these things and a lot of them have been.

That I had found that were really
helpful and for the last couple of years,

obviously the physical side of things
has absolutely prohibited like most of

my ability to be able to do those things.

And so I'm not having enough to then draw
on to then be able to do the stuff I want.

So there's this frustration of not
being able to do the hike, not being

able to do the things that make me
feel good that, and that's where.

And I feel like that's the
thing that's sapping my energy.

Sam: I can't pull the
medicine down from the shelf.

I know which one I need and I've
devised it myself for some reason.

My body is betraying me.

Something's getting in the way again
and again and we can psychoanalyse

that and sometimes it's real things.

You know, Adam frustrates me sometimes
because he won't allow me to bring...

Like real and rational sort
of obstacles into the thing.

He's like, yeah, well, they might or
might not be true I don't know but

like what can we talk about like what
you know, what what's stopping you?

This that and the other okay, but
what's inside you that's stopping you?

Adam's your therapist?

Yes, Adam's a therapist and I was gonna
say like that We don't talk about,

Krishna's enough apparently on this
thing, but they talk about Uh, spiritual

practices, watering the right plants
and just not watering the wrong ones.

You know, it's like, it's gardening.

It's cultivation is the metaphor they use.

And so it occurred to me, I don't think
Ali's missing any of the ingredients

or, uh, things here whatsoever.

Like the things you were talking
about, like pre breakdown,

some of it's further than.

It needs to be maybe,
but like, what'd you say?

The gardening, sourdough, these
are all productive creative

Ali: acts.

Yeah, like long sort of complicated
cooking and or preserving

projects I found deeply cathartic.

Like, like there is a Doing something
from scratch and having the struggle to

do something from scratch, I find great
enjoyment and pleasure from whether it's

gardening, cooking, hiking, things that
I've, you know, I, I feel like those are

the things that have been, you know, and
like I said, for a variety of reasons,

you know, physically, my body has not
been able to keep up the last few years.

And so, and those things would have
been the things that normally would

have actually then given me the
energy to then move on to, you know,

and now I just want to, Get Uber
Eats and stay mad a lot of the time.

Sam: Yeah, setting up, setting
up your base camp to go up

the rest of, uh, Everest is,
yeah, sort of beyond you at the

Ali: moment.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

And it's, it's frustrating.

It's a frustrating thing.

Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

And I was gonna say, I really vibe with
a lot of this cause like before that.

You know, the 19 years old having
panic attacks and, you know, yeah,

like a proper breakdown, but like
not as profound as that one at all.

and I recovered much more quickly from
like the surface symptoms, getting

things right in your life and doing
all the therapy that took longer.

But the, I was reminded that I was
really going after it before that I

was ambitious and I did things and.

I planned things and followed through
on them a lot of the time and like

more than, more than I might now.

so like, yeah, you're right.

I think that there's a dissatisfaction
here that we, I don't think

we need to reject it entirely.

yeah, but like, but that's like, I
have to go all the way back to my

teenage years and I've had sort of
episodes since of like the thing

you're just really going after it.

After more than one thing and packing
a lot in, still get bursts of it

Ali: now.

Yes, I just, I haven't had the burst of
it for what feels like a really long time.

Damn, that sucks.

Yeah, it really sucks.

Like, I know, like, You know, I've
joked with Joe a few times that

like, God, I just would love for some
low key hypomania to get something

done, so, that would be nice.

I would say,

Sam: yeah.

Just a little cheat.

Joe: Yeah.

You would, yeah.

I think you had a call to adventure,
you got called to a deeper reality

and instead of doing that, you've
papered over the cracks and tried

to go back to sourdough and being
functional and you just, you just

don't have the energy for that anymore.

Cause your energy's been called somewhere
else and you've missed the call.

Not a papering.

Sam: But like the

Joe: re, the re, it's like, Oh,
let's just get back on with it.

It's like, no, well the
reconstruction, different person.

No, yeah, yeah.

It's not, it's not kind of
what the topic of the show was.

It's like, we don't go
back to who we were.

No.

Ali: And I, and I don't think

Joe: we're going backwards.

We can go deeper is what I'm saying.

Does that

Ali: make sense?

And I certainly feel like, yeah,
like the things that I was.

Holding, you know, down that,
that is where I have gone

deeper and understanding.

Yes, that's good.

Yeah.

The therapy.

So that's where I've
understood, you know, trauma.

Yeah.

My behaviors, you know, things I've
done, things that have happened to me.

Mm-Hmm.

That's where I've gone
deeper after my breakdown.

Mm-Hmm.

. And I needed to go through
that to understand why I did

a lot of the things I did.

So I have that under.

I feel like I have a pretty
good understanding of why I do

a lot of the things I do now.

That wasn't something I
found hard to pick up.

I found that quite easily to rationalize
and like, Oh, that makes sense.

Probably a pretty good patient to have.

Oh, like to the point, like my
psychologist said, it's, it's a,

it's a, to my detriment that I
can understand why, how and why.

Yeah, quickly with it and then
feel fucking frustrated because

it's not, you know, I can see it.

You've got too much

Joe: logic

Ali: and rationality.

Yeah, it is.

But to a point of, to a fault, that's the

Joe: problem.

If you're bipolar type
one, you're a mystic.

Ali: I'm not, I don't feel,
I don't feel that I'm.

Joe: That's whether you
want to be or not, you are.

I think

Sam: maybe you work your magic
in a different way though.

It's not going to be the, it's
not going to be the cave life

for you, the wide eyed, wild eyed

Joe: mystic.

Before there was a designation
of bipolar type one, there was.

Charming and mystic.

Ali: So I mean, but I feel like to

Joe: whereas you are
hyper-rational, hyper logical.

No, you're

Sam: also drawn, you're also
drawn to the eccentric thing too.

But I,

Joe: yeah, you're happy to
listen to us, but you won't

go along with anything weird.

Ali: I, I feel though that in the right
environment with the right supports, yeah.

That life could be very possible indeed.

But I absolutely still have to work.

You're still a parent and
take a child care of a child.

Yeah.

And there's no.

space to be a mystic, but
like, if I didn't have the

responsibility, you've been

Joe: accused of being a

Ali: witch before though.

That was, that's because
I have a pointy nose.

Um, and a cackle.

Yeah.

And a cackle.

Yeah.

I just, I had a witchy vibe as well.

I was told, but it was more like, you
know, the long dark hair back then.

Oh yeah.

That would look good.

Yeah.

Like, but at the, like I said,
I don't feel like I am in any,

you know, and historically.

If you're looking at shamans and stuff,
they were revered and supported and

they could, someone would bring the
shaman food, if the shaman wasn't

out there foraging for himself.

As they should.

Who's, like, no one's foraging for me.

Yeah, that's

Joe: the thing, we've been
born in the wrong time.

Ali: Yeah, so absolutely,
so, well, I don't, so I don't

Joe: have this.

Yeah, but I'm embracing the mystery.

Sam: Well, I've said this before, the
government needs to bring in a nice

Ali: game for me.

If there was a UBI and I didn't
have, and I could just get by.

And like I said, if my retirement plan,
although the idea of being able to do

the things I want to do, and I find great
joy and pleasure in doing, and probably

have the energy to do and potentially
explore a mystic shaman sort of.

Life is just simply not...

I just don't...

Joe: I think unless you have some
curiosity about the nature of

reality and some willingness to
explore some spirituality, I don't

think the retired life that you're
talking about will be satisfying.

No, but you

Sam: know, you know Ali's a
very subtle thinker and has

got all those shades going on.

It's not, it's not always
expressed directly.

And, and, but, and also you're,
you're, you've determined to

put her in the rationalist box,
but I don't know if it's as...

Complete is all that.

Joe: It's conditioning.

I don't think you can drop it.

There's a curiosity in there somewhere,
but it can't come to the surface.

No, but I think the curiosity...

There's a yearning, you know?

Your yearning for God is actually
God's yearning for you, Ali.

Ali: Oh my God.

Jesus

Joe: Christ.

Alright, I think we should wrap it up.

No, I love it.

Sam: love that character though.

Actually, I'm enjoying the
come to Jesus character.

I don't mind it.

It is fun.

It's not a character.

No, no, no.

I'm joking.

I know it's, I know you mean it.

Absolutely.

Joe: No, no, no.

Christian God, just God,
just loving awareness.

The start of this show,
go back and listen.

You both signed on to it.

So we're all doing it.

We're all loving awareness.

Anyway, we've given Ali a real grilling.

I think we should let her have a

Sam: break.

We have.

We've really put her under the microscope.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know.

Was

Ali: that fun, Ali?

Yeah, no, it was good.

It was really, yeah, no, I really,
I enjoy, like, I enjoy being able to

sort of, It's not often I can take
pause and actually verbalize it, like

I definitely have it going on in my
head in a way, but not in a way that

it's Sort of usually expressed 'cause
outside of therapy, it's not socially

acceptable to do what was Yeah.

I'm not doing it with my
colleagues at, at work.

I'm not doing it with
my family necessarily.

Like Yeah.

Yeah.

Joe: And she's a very giving
person who puts other people first.

So it's, it's true.

You have to force Allie
to go into the spotlight

Sam: and Yeah.

But was being, so, giving in the process.

By being the guinea pig, and allowing

Joe: Not self obsessed
like you and me, Sam.

That's right.

Yeah.

But, look, I've been told that
this show is a lot of, well, almost

completely us just being self
obsessed and talking about ourselves.

But you know what I realised?

I mean, there's some truth in that.

If people don't want that,
they just won't listen to the

show, because that's all it is.

Don't worry about it.

So I was like, oh no, it's true,
what a, what a cunning criticism,

and I'm like, oh no, that's That's,
yeah, that's the entire show.

Okay, well if they like it,
I think the sweetener was,

but you have a great dynamic.

Yeah.

I was like, okay, so all we do
is self obsessively, I think

the term navel gazing was used.

Oh my god, it's

Sam: a podcast.

Joe: Yeah, yeah.

So I was like, what, how do we fix that?

And I'm like, oh, we can't.

It's the

Sam: entire show.

Do you know what's funny though?

When you listen to like a topical
podcast that's meant to be all

business and then they do some
navel gazing, I'm like, see, they're

Ali: at it.

I think everyone's prone to it.

Like it's a natural place to veer to.

Joe: Yeah.

Okay.

Well, this week's one thing of the
10, 000 things was, do we ever fully

recover from a full mental breakdown?

And the answer was...

Sam: No, and you don't have to

Joe: say yes, you're fine.

Just crack on, go deeper,

Sam: always go deeper.

Yes.

You're fine.

Crack on, go deeper.

You're still broken.

Keep working on it.

It's all, all of that's true.

But I would also say that like,
I tend, um, man, so many, so much

disagreement and agreement with Joey.

It's dizzying.

I'm trying to tally it all up in my head.

Like, is he more wrong than right?

Joe: Not sure, but there will
be no logical coherence to what

I've said, but logic is only

Sam: one way of thinking.

I think you've had a definite.

It's a coherent view on this whole thing.

I'll actually, I'll give you that, but
the, my feeling is there's something

there that you've identified a goal.

It's not gonna be easy to pursue.

Actually.

It might prove easier than I thought.

I don't know, prove me wrong, but
like I, whose goal, I just want

the energy level slightly better.

I just, I want to have a little
bit more executive function maybe,

you know, like, I mean, I think we
can concretize it a little bit and.

I think pursuing that, I think you've
found lots of great ways of pursuing

it in the past and I've got confidence
that you'll find more ways and they'll

have a spiritual dimension to them.

Joe: Yeah, and if you tap into your
spiritual energy, you'll have unlimited

energy, but not in that unhealthy way.

Sam: Don't make any large promises though.

Joe: Yeah.

But, you're not willing to
yet, so pray for the willing,

I'll pray for your willingness.

Thanks.

Thanks Joe.

Alright, well see you later everybody.

See ya.

Sam: Ah.

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