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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, where we dive deep into the heart of staff wellbeing within the education sector. In each episode, we bring to the table a diverse array of guests, including experienced teachers and leaders, experts in psychology, health and wellbeing, as well as thought leaders in the sector.
[00:00:18] Whether you are looking for practical tips, inspirational stories, or innovative approaches to wellbeing, our podcast aims [00:00:25] to support, inspire and empower those dedicated to nurturing the next generation. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting Nick Osborne. Nick is the CEO and founder of Maritime Academy Trust, a family of 13 primary schools across London and the Southeast.
[00:00:42] With a background in primary teaching and headship. He's passionate about collaboration, curriculum innovation, and giving every child [00:00:50] the best possible, start A national leader of education. Nick supports other schools and contributes to national projects on school improvement and ai. He still learns something new, more.
[00:01:00] Stays and credits his team for any success. A out of three and a school governor, Nick tries to bring honesty, warmth, and the occasional bit of humor to his work. It was an absolute pleasure to chat with Nick and there is lots of wisdom to be gleaned from a leader who [00:01:15] puts people before paperclips.
[00:01:16] Today we discuss creating intentional culture, creating problem solving, and having the permission to rest as well as becoming an actor. Leader after a dream, barbecues and pig wrestling. Enjoy.
[00:01:35] Welcome, Nick. It's great to have you here. Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it. [00:01:40] It's a beautiful sunny day, isn't it? For context. Um, I'm not quite sure when this'll air, but we both sat here in the sunshine, which, um, is rather pleasant. It does make a nice change, Sonic. Thank you so much for joining us for this podcast recording your CEO of Maritime Academy Trust.
[00:01:59] Which is 13 schools across the Greenwich and Kent area. And I believe you [00:02:05] started out as a primary school teacher. So I wonder whether, could we just start by hearing a little bit more about your journey in education? Yeah, sure. So I started as a primary school teacher in 1999 and I worked in southeast London, so inner city school.
[00:02:23] Uh, and that's kind, that was my teaching journey really. It was London schools. Across the various [00:02:30] local authorities. I used to see myself as a juniors teacher and a year six teacher. Uh, but I got braver and got and went further down the schools as my career progressed. So I've taught from sort of year one to year six, and it's always good 'cause parents would come up to you asking you if you'd been demoted because you'd gone down a year group.
[00:02:49] So it was back in those days. Or if you went back up to year six, they'd congratulate you like, [00:02:55] like it was some sort of crazy achievement. So. Then I had a dream one day that I was a deputy head. So I've been teaching for about 10 years and I dreamt that I was a deputy head, so it wasn't some greater calling into leadership.
[00:03:08] I just thought, oh, I quite like that dream. So then I started applying for positions and I became a deputy. And then it was the early days of federations between schools. So I [00:03:20] became a sort of a head of school. In a large, uh, free form entry primary school near Belmar Prison. Uh, so that was fun. And then from there, I beca I took my first headship, which, uh, was Brooklyn's in Black Heath and that had just come out special measures.
[00:03:38] So it was back in the days when you could still be satisfactory before your RI. Uh, I took [00:03:45] that to Outstanding and then was asked to take on another school in the local authority as a kind of executive head. And that was of my whole career so far. That was the toughest time. Uh, 'cause that was a school.
[00:04:01] We knew Osted would be coming and we were trying to stop it getting going into special measures. Uh, so that, that was [00:04:10] tough. That was, that was hard work and I probably learned so much in that period. So we turned that around, turned that score around, and then I took on a third school in the same local authority.
[00:04:20] So that's where the Academy Trust came from, that I lead now. So it's originally started as. Three primary schools that I was executive head over. And then over time we've kind of organically grown to the size that we're at now, I did [00:04:35] think that creating a trust, uh, would, I was really naive. So I did it because every year I'd have to go back to the board and justify the partnerships.
[00:04:46] So you'd spend a term of every three terms. Doing a lot of work on justifying why the partnership should carry on. So I felt that if we became one legal entity, we wouldn't have to do that anymore. And then I thought [00:05:00] it'd be easy. I'd sit back and the heads would run the schools and I wouldn't know what to do myself.
[00:05:05] And, uh. That was a stupid schoolboy era. Uh, and I still feel I'm paying for that today, for having that hope that that would be the life. And yeah. And then as the trust has grown, the role has changed. Uh, the organization has changed. How we work has changed. But I suppose the overriding thing that stayed the same is [00:05:25] how we behave, how we treat people, how we behave, and what we stand for.
[00:05:29] Sorry if, if I've rambled on a lot there. No, no, that was lovely. And you wouldn't believe how many, um, guests I've had on this podcast who'll talk about becoming accidental teachers. They sort of say, oh, it was all a bit of an accident. But I think that's the first time I've heard somebody describe like their journey into accidental leadership, um, because it came to you in a dream.[00:05:50]
[00:05:50] Which I just love. It wasn't some sort of inspired dream. It was just a dream where I was one and I was like, oh, I like this. I was thinking Joseph isn, his technical dream court and this sort of full on, uh, yeah, this full on technical dream. Love that. So you created maritime around an idea that education should be meaningful and children should love learning.
[00:06:14] And [00:06:15] on the just website it says that you, you achieve this, you do this by seeking out the intersection between logic and magic. And I just loved that statement. It reminds me, I'm not sure whether you've heard a it of a Brian pattern poem, um, one of the Liverpool poets, uh, and it's called Somewhere Between Heaven and Woolworths.
[00:06:36] And it just sort of struck me and I thought, yes, I love that [00:06:40] as a statement. And I know, um, that a really important aspect of it has been around creating a culture based on six key behaviors that apply to everyone in the organization. And they seem to be really about the building blocks to create the culture that then creates this kind of meaningful experience for, for the children.
[00:07:00] So I think it'd be really lovely if we could just pick up on a few of those themes, if that's [00:07:05] right with you. In particular into relation to kind of staff experience, but obviously, um, I'm sure the children's experience will come into it as well. So three of those behaviors are supportiveness, trust and collaboration.
[00:07:20] They really have all their roots in strong relationships, don't they? Uh, and I know I've, I've seen you make the statement to people before [00:07:30] paper clips. How important do you feel strong relationships are in the trust and, and how do you foster them? So firstly, I think is something that we have to work on every single day and we will never crack it.
[00:07:45] And I think that from a structural perspective, I can control the interactions, the people I work with. So my, the central team that I lead, the head [00:07:55] teachers that I work with, and then I kind of need to rely. And hopefully that then spreading out to the wider staff. And then when I interact with those staff, I can kind of celebr, I can model the behaviors that we are, we are trying to achieve that way.
[00:08:09] So our behaviors came, uh, from the staff. So I went round when we were probably half the size we are now. And I, I met with head teachers, leaders, [00:08:20] support staff, auxiliary staff. I tried to meet with the biggest range of staff possible and say. Who, what, who do you wanna work with? Like, what do you want from your colleagues?
[00:08:30] 'cause that's what we should be, that's the behaviors we should have. Uh, and then from those conversations and uh, that big piece of work, which probably took about six months, I then worked with the leaders to sort draw out. [00:08:45] What these behaviors were, try to sort of summarize them with the ones we've come with and then what that looks like in real life and what that actually means because they can just be labels, uh, otherwise.
[00:08:57] So I think one of our behaviors is, is now humor and positivity. And it wasn't, at first, it was just positivity. Everybody assumed it was humor because of the way we interact with each other. So it [00:09:10] got added in to become humor and positivity. So that's kind of where it started from. And then we kind of, we nicked, we pinch, we, we always looking who does things well, who does things great that we can copy And, and I love the phrase that the All Blacks allegedly have above their dressing room.
[00:09:27] Uh, I hope it's true. That says no dickheads. So that's my mantra. That's the mantra that we live. We try and live by. So that kind of where it [00:09:35] started from. And I suppose when you talk about the kind of the supportiveness, the trust, the collaboration as a multi academy trust, the only reason we exist is to collaborate and try and work in a different way.
[00:09:46] So the kind of collaboration supposed to achieve a few things. One, it's learn from each other and have that humility to know that we haven't got it all. So that can be. Myself, having the humility, maritime, having the humility, the individual leaders in [00:10:00] the schools, kind of knowing that we don't have it all.
[00:10:02] So we, we need to collaborate and work with each other. So that's one driving factor. And then the other driving factor of the collaboration is to reduce workload because we know in education that that's a massive issue. So in order to do that, we need to work together. But I suppose they're probably hierarchical because you can't have the collaboration [00:10:25] without the trust and supportiveness.
[00:10:26] You just can't. You can put people in a room and say, let's share ideas. Let's learn from each other. But you're kind of, you're looking at each other. You're worried about, do I speak out or will I sound like a wally, or will someone say something horrible? Is this really that good for me to be sharing? So we've had to do a lot of work around just getting people working together.[00:10:50]
[00:10:50] So we do that through our kind of structures. So we have geographical hubs, we have lots of professional learning networks. When we interact with each other at meetings, we try to do sort of small things. So we always, we will start every meeting. It doesn't matter how serious that meeting's got to be, uh, or when it is, but we'll start a meeting with just an, a fun question.
[00:11:12] So we always like, what's the best [00:11:15] superpower? If you had to live with a TV character, who would you wanna live with? Does pineapple belong on a pizza? Like, and someone will come up with a different one each time. And it's kind of those things of there is no right answer to that. There's no hierarchy in their voice.
[00:11:32] So it's trying to break the hierarchy as much as possible that we can have a jokey row about the superpower one, and [00:11:40] I can be put in my place even though I lead the organization. So I think those sorts of things are important. And then the supportiveness one. I love the stuff around psychological safety, but it can't come from words.
[00:11:53] It just can't. It has to come from. Something hit in the fan. Let's say the glitter hit in the fan, right? That's when you are gonna get it. So if you have a bad [00:12:05] S result or you have an osted that doesn't quite go well, or there's a mini disaster in the school and they happen, you know, on a, I don't wanna sound incompetent, but they happen on a regular basis.
[00:12:16] Things go wrong, like things, uh, that you can't plan for, and it's how you react to those, which is key. I think in developing that trust and supportiveness, and then we kind of have a, a final mantra. [00:12:30] It's not, not a massive one to celebrate, but we have had to move people on. It's always been, especially at leadership level, it's been about behaviors.
[00:12:38] The, the leaders we've had to let go have been about behaviors, not because something went wrong in the short term. 'cause we can work, we, if you've got the right attitudes, the right behaviors, 90% of 99% of people in the profession are desperate for the children, the schools to do [00:12:55] well. So we can, we can forgive things going wrong.
[00:13:00] It's when you haven't got the right behavior. So if you are. If you bully staff, if you are, if you, you're not consistent with staff, if you favor some staff over others, if you cold to staff, if you can't be human and give days up for them visiting their kids' performance or, or [00:13:20] needing to go out. To see that their child score, anything like that.
[00:13:23] Sports days, if you can't do that, then there's, it's not the right fit. So I suppose it's through the actions is how we've kind of embedded these behaviors. Yeah, and all of those behaviors that you're talking about and all about, all of those actions, they feed into that whole staff wellbeing piece. You know, when we think about wellbeing often.
[00:13:43] People think it's either [00:13:45] a fluffy or it's B something that you do on an afternoon at the end of term. It's an event, but, but if we think that you spoke about there is what impacts on staff feeling good, isn't it? Staff people? Yeah. You know, they feel supportive. They give support. They've got that choice to.
[00:14:03] To make mistakes, make and feel like that's okay. And, and they've got that collaboration piece as well working within those teams, [00:14:10] and by the sounds of it, kind of working with managers and staff who do have that kindness about them and do have that kind of, those behaviors that, that just make people feel good to exist in that organization.
[00:14:25] And I think you're so right. I love the, um, I love your conversation starters as a way to connect people at the beginning of meetings. 'cause actually that's building psychological [00:14:35] safety, isn't it? Yeah. It's building that challenge and that risk and, you know, all of those things. So yeah, it sounds fantastic.
[00:14:43] And I think that kind of brings us onto, 'cause I think the, the other side of psychological safety is not only is it safe to make mistakes, but it's also safe to take risks. And I know creativity and innovation are kind of key behaviors. I think you've gotta have that trust to be able to. [00:15:00] To do that as well.
[00:15:02] And I know one of the things that, uh, I loved reading about when I was reading about the trust was that maritime is built on the firm belief that children are capable of developing leadership and entrepreneurial skills. So before I kind of ask you about creativity and innovation within your staff, could you just tell us a little bit more about the kind of entrepreneurial [00:15:25] curriculum?
[00:15:25] Yeah. So the. If I'm gonna be brutally honest, the entrepreneurial curriculum was something we really prided ourself on when we were smaller, and it's had to take a little bit of a backseat over the past couple of years. It, so it still lives in some of our schools, but not all of them because of the Ofsted framework.
[00:15:44] It became about trying to get through the framework. 'cause we came unstuck a little bit in the early days [00:15:50] and now we are kind of heading back towards, we're going full circle and trying to head back towards that because especially with the curriculum review and what's happening, but how it started and what originally was, was that if you go into an.
[00:16:04] A reception classroom. If you go into an early years classroom, those children are incredibly confident. If you go up to them, they'll tell you what they're doing, that they're building a rocket, that they're gonna fly to the moon, that they're making the best [00:16:15] cake in the world and they're doing it. And then we get into the kind of the main part of the school and we go subject based.
[00:16:20] And we, we go into learning the content. So what we tried to do was align the two. We'd have once a year, there'd be a big, we'd call them big outcomes. And they, the topic for that term would lead to the big outcome, and we had huge amounts, and then the children would lead on the [00:16:40] projects. They would do a lot of the work around it.
[00:16:42] So they would have to do the skills around, uh, putting presentations together, pitches, debates, uh, business plans, stuff that wasn't in the traditional curriculum. And it led to some amazing stuff like, so we had one school set up a coffee shop. We had proper museums where we hired the venue and they were the curators and they made everything and [00:17:05] did the work.
[00:17:05] We had, we had a school that did bus tour around London. And they took the parents to the different museums, and then they were the curators and they had designed the uniform and the pricing structure. Health and safety got mad. They weren't allowed to drive the bus, but, um, so we had like professional magazines made, so we really tried to push these and we had kind of educational conferences where the [00:17:30] children would lead them and they would run them.
[00:17:32] And that was the kind of the big thing of, of what we were. But then, like I say, Aster came in and it was, it wasn't a knowledge base that was sequenced in a certain way, so we kind of had to take, some of our schools kept it. Uh, so they have, we have like an education conference or they'll put on kind of mini museums and they will have big outcomes, create [00:17:55] little mini movies that they'll show at the local cinema.
[00:17:57] It was always to aim really high, but we've kind of had to. Adapt to make our curriculum meet the osted structure. 'cause we had to just be pragmatic with that. Now we've all been, all the schools have been through the cycles and have done well. We're now looking at kind of going back to where we were. But really making it, the curriculum elements [00:18:20] of that really tight.
[00:18:21] I just love the sound of those projects though. I just think, you know, having that as an ambition for the children is just fantastic. So I'll be interested to see what then once you've gone back and Yeah. Done all that, what, what those outcomes are, you know, over the next couple of years. Um, so if we put it in the context of staff, then, you know, fostering creativity and.
[00:18:44] [00:18:45] Innovation. What does that look like for staff? Right. So I suppose it can be different things for staff. So a while back I used to write kind of silly job adverts around creativity. Uh, that we want someone who's creative that problem solves, uh, because I. I'm not creative in the art sense, like drama, art, art.
[00:19:07] I have a Fantasia, so I can't imagine anything in my [00:19:10] head. I, I find it mind blowing that other people can, uh, I'm not creative musically, but creativity is beyond that. They are creative subjects, but it was about creativity in, in problem solving and looking at things in a different angle. So when we used to put adverts out for creativity.
[00:19:27] Attended only to get to people in the art side of things, uh, rather than the kind of problem solving thing. But over time, that's [00:19:35] changed. So we kind of see creativity about how we solve the problems. So in a real school sense, this doesn't, this might not sound that exciting, but, uh, one of our schools has real.
[00:19:49] Issues with attendance because of the makeup of the families that go to the school. A lot of the families go back to Asia or Africa at the beginning of the [00:20:00] summer and at the end of the summer, and the attendance rates would absolutely sink at that time of year. And so it would take a couple of weeks to get into the rhythm of things in the autumn term.
[00:20:11] And the last couple of weeks in the summer term, were really, really poor. And of course we are held to account on attendance and children's learning. Um, so the head teacher came up with the idea of changing the school year, [00:20:25] changing the dates of the school year. So they start at eight. They're a primary school that start at eight o'clock now.
[00:20:29] Uh, they have, but they have a shorter year. Their summer holiday goes against the norm and has got longer. So they have eight weeks now, uh, which seems huge, but they have longer school days. They involved all the staff. The head was like, goes back to the collaboration. If you are not buying into this, we are not doing this.
[00:20:46] There's no, I'm not having a fight with you. This, this is an [00:20:50] idea. Do you think this could work? What could be the problems? What, how could we get round them? Then he went to the parents and got their views and, and then they came back with a different kind of model. Uh, but for me, that's creativity and action.
[00:21:04] Then I have such a brilliant board that, that want to encourage creativity that they were able to take that on board and give approval to that, which [00:21:15] would scare people. So we kind of try and have the mantra of flipping the decision. So what I mean by that is some, lots of times we scared of change. So you say, right, or if we do this, this could go wrong, this could go wrong, this could go wrong.
[00:21:30] Now what we do is we say. To help with our decision making. Right? Let's imagine that the new idea we've always done and we're [00:21:40] flipping to the status quo. What would be the problems that way? Round? So with the attendance one, for example, we imagined we already had eight weeks of summer and we would, we would shrink it to six.
[00:21:51] So we'd talk about the positives and then go, well, what could go wrong? What goes wrong is what you're, the problem you're trying to solve. And it sounds worse that way, right? Well, we're gonna, we're gonna open the school, but loads of our parents aren't gonna be back and our families are gonna have [00:22:05] left early and we're shortening the school day.
[00:22:08] Um, so we're gonna have parents that it makes childcare harder for them. And so just by flipping the decision round you, you see it in a different light. Does that, am I making sense? 'cause sometimes I confuse myself. Completely makes sense. And you know, and I think that is really important, isn't it, to kind of.
[00:22:28] Makes you, that definition of [00:22:30] creativity goes beyond that artistic creativity, as you say, creative thinkers, agile thinkers, problem solvers, being able to kind of think outside the box for, for one of a different phrase. Yeah, and I'd say one huge one that we now have across the trust, which I still can't get my head around.
[00:22:46] And I, I've said it to everyone, uh, maybe I'm becoming a dinosaur, but it came from our teachers in early years. And in year [00:22:55] one and year two, so we now have a developmental. Age approach for our year one and year two. So it's more of an early years approach in those year groups, uh, where children are more independent.
[00:23:11] There will be some small group, uh, interaction and they work with the teacher on that, but others will be off working on other [00:23:20] aspects during that time. So it's bringing the early years approach into years one and two. I don't fully get it, but my teachers in the school are really passionate about it and so are the early years leads.
[00:23:34] So they're the ones trialing it. That's a real live example of over the past couple of years where our, our whole approach to teaching has changed and that's come from the staff. [00:23:45] It's not come from me, it's not come from my executive team. And then we just have to have that approach that will go for it.
[00:23:50] And if it doesn't work, we can go back rather than just fear the. Yeah. And, and that kind of sense of autonomy or empowerment again, feeds into wellbeing. I mean, that's the, that's kind of the things that make us feel good, where we feel like we've got, that we're empowered to make those decisions. Yeah.
[00:24:07] It's fantastic. And I know that, um, one of [00:24:10] the other things that is very much encouraged is, uh, around CPD Yeah. That you see. And again, we know that feeds in hugely into job satisfaction. Um, now when I read about it on your website, it says that. First class CPD is part of your big, hairy, audacious goal. I pause at the wrong point there.
[00:24:31] Big hairy audacious goal, the BHAG to [00:24:35] which is to positively disrupt education to ensure all children get an excellent start in life. Yeah, so again, you'll see a pattern here. We went to our heads, uh, a few years ago. We merged two trusts together, and I felt it was really important that, that both trusts were working towards the same area and the trust that was coming in didn't feel like it was just [00:25:00] adopting the original trust mar type.
[00:25:02] So we. I asked the head teachers one question. I said, you're a term in in reception. You've met the parents, you've spent a term with the children. Can you predict their SATs results? Do you think you can predict their SAS results and, uh, with what sort of degree of accuracy? And the head teachers overwhelmingly felt that they could predict their SAS results, and then we [00:25:25] kind of realized that that was wrong.
[00:25:27] 'cause what are we doing if, if it's predetermined by the, are we really making a difference? So we. Again, we went out to the schools, we spoke to staff. We, the leaders, went out to their staff. We came back and we said, well, if we're gonna positively, we came up with A, B, a G. Uh, and we, we called it our big, hairy, audacious goal for a reason.[00:25:50]
[00:25:50] Uh, because it is, and we, I find an education that. We overestimate what we can do in one year in a school development plan, and we underestimate what we can do in 10 and having a 10 year plan and starting in year zero. So it's secretly an 11 year plan. Uh, it gives you the chance to, to go for things and build things.
[00:26:11] So we said, right, well, if we're gonna do positively disrupt, what have we gotta [00:26:15] do differently? What, what? Are the pillars that are gonna get us there. So we came up with five areas. So it was, we need, we need the best staff. So our job is to provide as much training as possible for our staff. So CPD was huge, number one.
[00:26:31] Then it's, we said, well, if we're genuinely gonna work with these children. We've gotta work with their families. So it's our community work became the second, the second strand. [00:26:40] Then the third one was we we're gonna need to learn from other people, be it schools, be it trusts, be it charities, be it experts in particular fields.
[00:26:48] So it was about how do we build partnerships. Then the fourth element was that in any kind of other form of life, if you want to become a dancer, a pianist, a footballer, whatever that is, you kind of. You buy into the concept [00:27:05] that if I want to get better, I've gotta practice more. So we came up with education beyond 90 or three.
[00:27:10] So how can we extend their opportunities to learn? And then our fifth element is we've just gotta be the best scores we can. So that was around educational excellence. What that looks like in real life is the schools will have their priorities for the year. So they might say, look, our phonics isn't great this year.
[00:27:28] We wanna work on that. Another school [00:27:30] might say, I wanna support middle leaders. So they decide what their priorities are, but these five areas are the solutions to whatever their problem is. So if it's phonics in a school, how are you working with the families? Right? Who does the phonics the best that you know, right?
[00:27:45] How are we giving them more practice? So these become the solutions rather than you must do A, B, and C. And then at a central level, we then [00:27:55] try to work on projects. That will support all the schools or as many as possible. So we have, for CPD, we have our Learn Upon program, which is basically it's kind of video training platform where we can buy into video training.
[00:28:12] Schools can create their own and they do create their own. And then that way staff can access CPD when it [00:28:20] suits them and they can have their own kind of bespoke program rather than. Resitting, the same staff meeting they might have seen two years earlier on a, on a Wednesday afternoon. So actually we can tie it in that way.
[00:28:34] So that's kind of a trust provision to support the schools where it is education Beyond 90 or three 30, we, um, we set up the Maritime [00:28:45] Skills Academy, which is a, a Saturday school, but we don't call it a Saturday school where our most disadvantaged children. Our children will send, they can access a free half day on a Saturday where they can do arts dramas, robotics, computing sports, and it kind of gives them a, an enriched weekend model.
[00:29:06] So that's kind of how it works on a. Sort of in real life, if that [00:29:10] makes sense. Absolutely. Can we come to, um, honesty, humility, humor, and positivity? I know we've already touched on humor, positivity. Yeah. Um, this seems the perfect opportunity to, to bring in a little bit of your leadership style and you've been very open about your leadership style or, or relevance of it on LinkedIn.
[00:29:29] And I would absolutely urge anybody listening to connect with. For high comedy volume. [00:29:35] Thank you. Absolute breath of fresh air. When I'm scrolling through LinkedIn when your posts appear. My particular favorites were the seven leadership lessons from a potato. Yeah, yeah. And what I've learned as a leader from Michael Scott, the greatest leader of all time from the US office.
[00:29:52] Although I'm a uk, I'm a like a UK office, I'm a David Brent. I, I love David Brent, [00:30:00] but I just, the US office is just, is just nicer. The u the UK one is cringe funny, whereas the US is gentle. Funny. So how important is humor to you as a leader and within your trust? It's important to me as a leader because, 'cause that's who I am.
[00:30:17] So I think whoever the leader is, they have to be who they are and like to look at me, if you saw me in a room of [00:30:25] CEOs. I'm a a, a white, bald in middle-aged man. I look like I fit in, but for years I really felt like I didn't, I come from. Kind of, not violins, but a deprived area of East London, uh, I would've been pupil premium.
[00:30:43] And so for years it, as a leader, it, I felt like I didn't fit in. And then it took a while to realize you've just gotta be [00:30:50] yourself. That there isn't a type. We've all got our own, our own anxieties, our own worries. We're all making up as we go along. And the more you network and, and build trust for people, the more people.
[00:31:01] Let you know about that. So for me, that's where the hu I, like my wife says, I'm not funny. My children say I'm not funny, but I like to joke around with people. Um, so that's my style. So that's who I [00:31:15] am. So I take it into the room with me. Uh, I think it shows you are human. I think it shows, it breaks down the hierarchy.
[00:31:23] I think it helps a bit of self deprecation as well, I think helps to build psychological safety and the, the, and, and I'd had sort of coachee over a number of years, which has, has helped me come to that. Approach that actually I need to be myself. 'cause my chair of [00:31:40] trustees would like hound me to say, you've gotta raise your profile, you've gotta be on LinkedIn.
[00:31:45] And I'd see the types of posts and they weren't me. And so it took a while to just be brave and just post a couple and they seemed to go down. All right. So I've kept going. Absolutely. And, and that coaching, I know you've, you've kind of spoken about that on LinkedIn, I think I've read that. And you found that a really useful experience.
[00:32:02] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. When I first did [00:32:05] it, I thought, I, I thought it'd be weird, like I thought I'd say, oh, did you fancy a cup of tea? And they'd say like, what do you think? I thought it'd be like that. And it is not. It's just you get a chance to talk about yourself for an hour. Like, but through that and asking questions and, and pushing and probing, it kind of draws out.
[00:32:23] I feel it. It builds your armor so that you can be yourself. I think that I read that you sum up your leadership [00:32:30] style and it comes into the, the, what you've just said there that it was really important to you to be authentic and that humor is part of you and, and I think that leadership has to be. Has to be who you are.
[00:32:41] Not everybody you know is going to think that humor's an important kind of characteristic. I think you described yourself as passionately optimistic with a side order of chaos and mildly chaotic with [00:32:55] flashes of brilliance. Now that read to me like my French GCSE school report. I think she basically said something exactly like that and I got an A and I was like.
[00:33:07] Yes. I think I'd never passed a thing in French in my tie, but that's how she summed me up. Yeah. Mildly chaotic with flashes of brilliance. So yeah, and I think that, to me when I read that, it's just embracing that [00:33:20] authenticity, isn't it? And and leading as who you are. And that I think, gives. People permission.
[00:33:26] Yeah. Which I think is super important, isn't it? That they see you as a human, um, and I know that you're quite happy to kind of share your mistakes and your, and and things when they don't always go right? Would that be right? Yeah. There's two reasons really. And one is because I think it's [00:33:45] really imp, right?
[00:33:46] There's three reasons. Uh. It's really important to share your mistakes. One, because it does build the psychological safety that people can make mistakes and we can learn from them. And trying to cover up mistakes or pass the blame is way worse than having mistakes and, and trying to, uh, not own up to them.
[00:34:04] So I think that's number one. Number two. I think with the world [00:34:10] of social media, we only see the positives, right? So I can go in on LinkedIn or Twitter, and I can see people have worked really hard. Right. And they'll share their osted report and it'll say, oh, we're outstanding. But you're only ever seeing the outstanding ones or you're only ever seeing the success.
[00:34:26] So your, your view worldview can really change and you, I think it can make people, bring people down that they're not, they're not good enough [00:34:35] or they're not working, uh, the, the way the rest of the world is. I know. I speak to our heads and I, and they're always imagining the school down the road with is perfect with no chaos.
[00:34:46] And it's, that's not, we're comparing ourselves to a fictional, a fictional school or trust or human. So I think if the more we can do to share in the right tone. The more that helps. And then I think the third, the [00:35:00] third one is it helps build your armor. Um, I've used armor twice in this conversation. I've never used it before in my life, but it helps, it helps you, uh, build your armor because if you are owning it up and you are saying, yeah, I've, I've dropped the ball on this one, what can someone else say?
[00:35:15] They can call you out for it, but you've already done it yourself. So I think, I think it helps in for your own kind of wellbeing as well. The final thing I would say is. There's, there's [00:35:25] a, I love, it's just such a beautiful book called Pig Wrestling, and it's, it's told as a story, it works on the concept of we spend 90% of our time trying to solve a problem and 10% of our time identifying the problem, whereas actually we need to flip it and spend more time.
[00:35:44] Identifying what the problem really is, and then we try and solve it. And it comes up [00:35:50] with a framework of how to solve a problem. But through some great storytelling, it is a really small, short book. It's not very famous, but it's called Pig Wrestling. And one of the things it has in there is that, um, your strengths are linked to your weaknesses.
[00:36:04] So. You overplay your strengths, they become your weaknesses. And and I think that's a, a guiding principle that we try to have amongst us. We talk about as leaders in the trust as well. Sorry, I'm [00:36:15] still, just my head's getting my head round pig wrestling. I am now gonna order this book. I have to order this book.
[00:36:23] It's very short, but it's very good. So you've spoken, um, about the importance of rest. I loved your post that you did about rest and we're huge advocates still human, that rest needs a better PR job. Um, we run workshops on rest. Really kind of trying to kind of. [00:36:40] Encourage people that rest is for the strong and not for the weak.
[00:36:43] So, and at the you, you quoted a lovely line, or you said a lovely line that I think I am now gonna quote and attribute to you, which was, resilience doesn't come from being tough, it comes from being. Rested Osborne 2025. Tell me more about that. Tell me your thoughts about rest. I think we're rubbish at it.
[00:37:03] Like I think we, we [00:37:05] think that like a weekend has to be productive or you need to do A, B, and C. And people like they feel guilty if they do nothing. If they, oh, I just watched telly, or I just sat in the garden, that's like, whatever floats your boat, that's how you recharge. And we see it every year. If I look for a school calendar, I think in the post I, the example I gave is the photocopier breaks on day one.
[00:37:29] At a term, when you're [00:37:30] rested, the photocopy is broken. The photocopier breaks the last week before Christmas or the summer holidays. No one cares in this place. No one worries about me. This place is falling apart. The same event has happened, but we approach it in two different ways. I see it, I see it with, I see it with my leaders.
[00:37:50] We kind of, we did this thing where we would, we, we tracked them for two years. On a [00:37:55] Friday we would send a, a lit, a really quick Google format, how's your week being? What would you score it out of? One to five, anything on your mind, anything we can help you with. And then the, the heads would respond to it.
[00:38:07] And then if. It dropped below a three. My, myself, or my deputy would pick up the phone and ring the leader up just to ask how they were. And what we found was the fourth [00:38:20] week in, so if we did this for two years, the fourth, fourth week in of every term, the scores plummeted. And it was, it was spring, it was summer, it was autumn for two years.
[00:38:30] Like it was a pattern. And it's kind of, they've come back, they've been recharged and they've run out of fuel. So we've kind of said to our heads the importance of rest and celebrated rest. We celebrate. They will not get emails from me at the weekends, [00:38:45] uh, where there's no expectations in the evening of a response.
[00:38:49] We don't celebrate the kind of, oh, I've been, I've been working a 20 hour day this week. I'm not being mean. But we just don't, we don't celebrate that. And what we've tried to do, it's been hard. It's a hard journey. But in the first instance, I had to book fake meetings in with my heads 'cause they would not take the time out.
[00:39:09] They'd [00:39:10] feel guilty. Well, what other people working? And I'm like, all the responsibility falls on you. Um, so I would book a day in and I'd say, you've got a meeting with me. This is what we're talking about. I don't expect you to turn up, go wherever's. Good for you. And that was the way of kind of giving them the permission to do it.
[00:39:29] And then you had to chase 'em up for it. And I know in an ideal world it would be, look, I'm having a day out [00:39:35] score. I'm, I'm resting here, I'm having a different approach. But you've got to be pragmatic. And if. You've gotta work to that level of where people will just do it and we will pull it in for their staff.
[00:39:47] So I think the big question we are gonna ask our leaders on our next leaders day next week is, what are you doing in the summer term? 'cause we know that our, where we are in the country, our summer term's, quite a long [00:40:00] one, we know it's gonna dip. What can we do to recharge? In the meantime, I learned from losing teachers pain conditions.
[00:40:08] So I think because we do get good holidays. When you're a teacher, you do get good holidays, right? But you work bloody hard. But like you sprint in between them, so you need those holidays, but then you feel, I think people think they do [00:40:25] subconsciously feel guilty about the holidays, so they do a bit here and a bit there and that's not resting and it's only when you kind of you lose that.
[00:40:33] I holiday much better now. Go back in time and slap the old nick with a wet fish to go like, relax in the holidays because now I, I get, I get my six weeks closer to seven more bank holidays off a year. I'm ruthless with those. If I'm [00:40:50] off right, I'm off. I'm not checking an email. There's no guilt to go to the phone.
[00:40:55] I'm off. And it has happened on occasions like my chair of trustees has had to make contact because something's happened. I'm then saying I wasn't off that day. I'd like to reclaim that day of annual leave please and whatever works for staff. 'cause there isn't a one size fits all the deal I made with myself as a [00:41:15] leader that Monday to Friday.
[00:41:16] I will work whatever hours need working. Uh, it's not a hero thing, but if I need to be up really early, if I've got a late ball meeting tonight or finish at nine, so be it. Because Saturday and Sunday are protected and I think we need to come up with our own rules for rest. This is my deal with myself about how I will manage my time.
[00:41:36] I think it starts with that permission, as you said. Yeah. I think a [00:41:40] lot of people need that permission, which is, yeah, what sounds like you're doing at that kind of trust level and then that kind of boundaried approach to it, doesn't it? And as you say, you know. You know, no size fits all. Absolutely. Sure.
[00:41:53] And I think for your heads and a lot of your leaders, it's that invisible labor that they're doing as well, isn't it? It's that mental load, that cognitive load, that emotional labor. Well, and for staff as well, but they, [00:42:05] that it doesn't look like work. Yeah. They, they're not, you know, they might be present at work for these hours, but then if they're taking it home, another two, three hours of ruminate, problem solving, thinking, worrying, you know, all of that sort of stuff.
[00:42:19] So I think there's something about. That education piece around that as well, isn't it? That you need to be boundaried around that element you know of, of your work. But I absolutely agree with you and we [00:42:30] obviously work with a lot of schools and a lot of trusts and it's that boom or bust approach in teaching Yeah.
[00:42:35] That you run at, you know, a hundred miles an hour. And then we stop and you know, you have no kind of control over, over that. And I think it's hard to recalibrate, isn't it? Which is why then people do do a bit of work or they feel restless or they can kind of tune into that sort of holiday state of [00:42:55] mind.
[00:42:55] So I definitely think there's something about being more intentional about it, but also learning to rest in the, in the middle of busy I think is super important as well. Three things that we do is we said to our heads, look, in the summer term. We always, everything gets left to the summer term. Everyone is dead by July.
[00:43:12] Like, what can you bring forward? Like what do we do that we've always done silly little things, but bring in sports days forward to like the end of spring, [00:43:20] uh, or the beginning of summer because then it's, it's outta the way done. Right? It's not, and it does create a buildup and it always creates drama that's not needed.
[00:43:28] 'cause someone doesn't like this type of event or this sticker or this. So. We say try to plan summer term out wherever you can. The other thing is rest can be doing stuff that you love and I mean like when you get in that state of [00:43:45] flow, I've had to sit with head teachers in the past and go, right, the school can be in three states.
[00:43:50] It can be in state one, which is. You are doing an amazing job just keeping it open, right? You staff are off sick. There's a bug going round. There's all sorts, right? There are some days when you just need to keep the school open and you have to accept that, and that's, that's fine. Don't feel guilty that you're not.[00:44:10]
[00:44:10] In lessons or you're not working on this project, you're just keeping the, the school open, and you've got this kind of second stage, which is, it's not ideal school's, open school's running. You've got people in. But there are dramas to, you're firefighting, you're putting stuff out, something's occurred.
[00:44:27] That's also a state that you've got to accept. And then that third state, which is rare, but things are smooth. You know, everyone's in, [00:44:35] people are calm, there's no dramas, they're the days you work on your bigger projects, the big things. And so we say to them, kind of sit, try to see the week like that, that if you're in stage one.
[00:44:47] So be it. Like that's part of the job. And then if you're in stage one too much, then we've gotta support you and try and help this. And then alongside that, we say, right, what part of the job do you love? And [00:45:00] there is no correct answer to this. You might love going into a reception class. You might equally like.
[00:45:06] Doing a spreadsheet, right? 'cause that's what floats your boat. Plan that into your work. Get into the work that you don't even think is work. And you, if you listen to your leaders really carefully, you'll hear them say things like, oh yeah, I wasn't really working. I was in so and so. And you're like, that is the job.
[00:45:24] [00:45:25] Uh, oh yeah. I wasn't, I was just doing a play duty. That is the job. So like try and get flowing. Is, is what we try and say to ours. And the final one, it's not really rest, but we say, do not open an email if you are not in the state. We tried the no emails out of office hours or weekends. And it just, for some people that's not good wellbeing for them.
[00:45:49] Like [00:45:50] so we said, look, you email when you want, but there's no expectation of any response out of school hours. And only open an email if you are prepared to deal with the crappiest email available. Because you might be, you might be at the cinema just waiting for the film to start and you think, oh, I'll just check a couple of emails.
[00:46:11] No. If the world's worst email's gonna ruin that film, don't do it. What does [00:46:15] rest look like to you then, Nick? Uh, for me, um, I'm. It's taken time. Coaching has helped being more mature and the job has helped. Um, rest for me is, is not school related at all, so it's either doing something for my children watching Arsenal, although it doesn't feel like rest at the moment.
[00:46:34] Or barbecuing. Barbecuing, yeah. A slow cooked, a slow cooked [00:46:40] meat of the weekend that takes eight hours to cook. Uh, and I've gotta spray it and paint it and just smell it and wrap it. Oh, that's, that's heaven to me. 'cause it's just not, it's not work. It's not work. You can't do a bit of work. You've just got this bit of meat.
[00:46:55] That you are in control of. So barbecuing is good for your wellbeing. I love that. Um, anything else that you do? Uh, at the minute they change, like I do get active. I'm [00:47:05] suffering from this condition at the moment called, uh, uh, fatty, um, which affects so many people in the country. So I'm trying to walk a lot more at the minute and, and that helps and I know.
[00:47:18] Even though you know it's good for you, you don't always live by your rules. I remember eight years ago I had to deal with the most horrible school incident that you can, that you can imagine [00:47:30] o over a number of months. And it was exercise that got me through that. It was, it was exercising, it was. Being physical and knowing what will help your mental wellbeing.
[00:47:41] So I suppose that's, that's one, uh, I fall back on because it's knowing your triggers, isn't it? So my, my team know when I'm feeling pressure because I withdraw, my emails get shorter in length. I'm hard at find [00:47:55] and I pull myself away. Whereas when I'm feeling good, I'm among my peers. I think that's really important, isn't it?
[00:48:01] And I think that's, you know, Ready's where. Coaching can be helpful, but also just that self-awareness, isn't it? That self-awareness of knowing what your behaviors or physical symptoms or emotional expressions are of when. Things are difficult, knowing what they are and then knowing what tool is needed to respond.
[00:48:19] Yeah. [00:48:20] To that. And I think I agree with you, you know, those, those tools can change, can't they? And physical exercise is a big part of that, but also things that just have enough amount of challenge, like your barbecuing. Yeah. Kind of keep your, your concentrated, but yeah, also bring about those kind of feelings of wellbeing, Sonic.
[00:48:37] Final words of wisdom, then we always ask our guests the same question. If you were to offer our listeners a [00:48:45] suggestion of one kind thing that they could do for themselves today, what would it be? One kind thing they could do for themselves, plan in a day. A reward day for themselves. You know, you've got X number of tasks coming up, you know, or a difficult conversation or so and so, and say, right, this is what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna [00:49:10] have this rewarded for myself.
[00:49:12] And whatever that is, whatever floats their boat and then have it, that would be my one bit of advice. Love it. I'm off to plan reward day. Fantastic. Yeah. Thank you Nick. Thank you so much for your time and sharing, um, sharing with us all of your wisdom. And as I say, I would absolutely urge, uh, everybody to connect with you.
[00:49:32] On LinkedIn and no pressure there. Like I feel [00:49:35] like that, I feel like I'm now building you up to, to have to provide, Hey, go on it and go. What were they talking about? Yeah, to provide content. Well, thank you so much, Nick. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. Been a pleasure talking to you.
[00:49:49] Thank you for having me on, Julie. I really appreciate it.