Transitioning to the 121 World: A Pilot's Perspective on New Challenges

Avination, welcome back to episode 329 of the Pilot to Pilot podcast today’s episode is with my buddy, Mike Pardillo. Mike and I were in the same class at our major airline and were a day apart in our 737 training. In this episode, Mike, talks about why he went the military route, what the Growler life was like and how the transition to 121 life has been!

What is Pilot to Pilot?

Pilot to Pilot is the podcast for anyone who flies — or dreams about it. Host Justin Siems sits down with airline captains, bush pilots, CFIs, and everyone in between for honest conversations about the path to the cockpit, the grind of the career, and the love of flying that keeps us coming back. Whether you're a student pilot chasing your first solo or a captain with 20,000 hours, there's a seat for you here. New episodes weekly.

Episode 329 of the pilot, the
Pilot podcast takes off now in aviation,

as everyone knows now,
American airlines, operated by PSA

Flight 5342, which had the
midair with the Blackhawk crashed

in the Potomac River.

I just want to go ahead and
say it's just awful, right?

Like, it is completely awful.

Sharing it online, just
everything that goes with it.

It's just.

It is extreme, sad situation.

Just thinking of the families
that are going to bed without their

loved ones waking up the next
day and experiencing that loss and

just realizing that it wasn't
a bad dream and it was real life.

My heart just goes out to him.

This could have been any one
of us.

This could have been any airplane.

This could have been you as a
passenger, it could have been you

as the pilot.

And it really kind of puts in
and it reminds you of what we do

and that this is always
something that can happen.

This is why we're professionals.

This is why we try to do the
best that we can every single flight

and make sure we get ourselves
home safe and our passengers home

safe.

And when stuff like this
happens, I just urge you not to be

the one to share it right away
on social media.

I think in these situations it
is best to sit back, give your condolences

and prayers if that's what
you're into, and just kind of be

there for your friends and
just grieve and just love and just

understand what people are
going through.

And they don't necessarily
need to see the video over and over,

over again.

They just need friends and
they need support.

So if anyone needs to talk,
you know, you can always reach out

to me, reach out to your
friends, whatever it is.

But I just want to say my
condolences to everyone that has

been affected by this crash.

And if you see me not posting
anything or much about it, it's not

because of a lack of care.

It's just because I'm trying
to respect the people that have lost

their lives and the families
that are involved, and it's just

an awful situation.

So this is more long winded
than I thought.

We have a great episode coming
up and I don't want it to take anything

away from Mike and what we got
now, but it's just something that

needed to be addressed and I
just feel for everyone that's involved

and reach out if you need to.

So here's the episode with
Mike Bardillo, and I hope you enjoy

it.

Fly with Garmin Avionics.

Then grab your mobile device
and make the Garmin Pilot App your

cockpit companion get advanced
functions you'll use before, during

and after every flight,
including updating your aircraft's

databases and logging engine data.

Plan File Fly Log with Garmin
Pilot the Pilot to Pilot podcast

is brought to you by Ground
School from the Finer Points, the

indispensable training app for
new and experienced pilots.

Visit learnthefinerpoints.com
justin to save 10% off your first

year, all pilots need the big
weather picture and I use SiriusXM

Aviation to check the fronts,
airmets, segments, turbulence, pireps

and more while I'm pre
flighting and in route.

All to give my passengers and
me the most comfortable flight possible.

And now with the latest offer
from Sirius xm, there's never been

a better time to upgrade your
next flight with a Garmin GDL52 portable

receiver to bring Sirius XM
and ADS B weather plus traffic into

your cockpit.

SiriusXM Aviation is offering
a $400 reward on new receivers purchased

in between February 14, 2025
and July 31, 2025.

The GDL52 is compatible with
Garmin Pilot or any EFB that you

use.

Take advantage of this great
offer and fly with the weather I

count on for every flight.

To learn more, visit
sporties.com sxmoffer My.

Name is Mike Pardillo.

I was a former EA 18G Growler
pilot in the Navy.

I did that for 11 and a half
years, separated in May and then

made my transition over to the major.

Airlines in 121 world AV nation.

What is going on?

And welcome back to the Pilot
the Pilot Podcast.

My name is Justin Seams and I
am your host.

Today's episode is with a good
buddy of mine, Mike Pardillo.

Mike was in my initial class
and we did training together.

We weren't actually training
partners, but we were kind of in

the group of three or four
people that we just had a group chat,

we had breakfast, we had dinner.

We were always talking about
struggles and training, so we always

call each other trauma buddies
for going through that, surviving

that together.

But Mike comes on and he talks
about his military experience.

He talks about flying, he
talks about in depth about carrier

landings, which was so fun to
listen to and just pick his brain

because it's something that's
just so foreign to me.

And as a civilian pilot, just
hearing these stories is awesome.

And it was also great to have
Mike and all my other military buddies

in there.

And this is the first time I
feel like I had stories where they

weren't talking about Sear school.

I think I said that right.

Talking about survivor skills
and surviving this and how they got

beat up.

So it was great to have that
conversation with Mike without hearing

those stories again for the time.

But anyways, Mike, I
appreciate you coming on, man.

I hope you all enjoy this podcast.

So, any further ado, here's my
buddy, Mike Pardillo.

Mike, what's going on, man?

Welcome to the Pilot, the
Pilot podcast.

Hey, thanks for having me, dude.

It's been a while.

I missed you.

Right.

For those of you who don't
know, Mike and I were in the same

hiring class and we kind of,
we call each other trauma buddies

because, you know, we went through.

We weren't initial partners,
but we were in the same kind of group.

We ate breakfast, lunch,
dinner with each other every single

day and just told stories
about how terrible pilots we were.

Yeah, yeah, we don't know how
we're going to pass.

We cried at dinner every night.

Yeah, but shout out to the
campus food because the Tavern is

sick.

If you, if you know, you know.

That's all I'm going to say
that place was.

I was blown away because I
didn't know about it right prior

to.

And then that facility is amazing.

So, yeah, it was really cool.

Kind of helped out until they
raised the price was we were there

for our initial two week class.

Everything was like super cheap.

We're all looking at each
other like, this is awesome.

Like, we're living like kings
out here.

And then we come in for
initial and all the prices have been

like doubled.

It's like, what the heck.

Yeah, they gotta change that, man.

Yeah, dude.

Well, we're not here to gloat
and to talk about our campus or the

airline we work at.

They can pay me more for that later.

No, I'm just kidding.

But we're here to talk about you.

We're here to talk about you
in aviation particularly, and how

you even got in aviation.

So obviously you mentioned
that you flew in the Navy and you

got to do some pretty cool
stuff with that.

But was flying kind of always
on your horizon or was there a specific

moment that you remember where
you're like, ah, being a pilot's

kind of cool, dude.

I tell you what, I, I didn't
make my decision until my senior

year of college to pursue
aviation at all.

I'd always been interested.

Right.

Like, my dad worked right next
to Miami International and we live

right by Fort Lauderdale
International and there's a little

viewing area there and we'd go
and watch planes or take off and

Land and stuff.

But it was always a pipe dream
for me.

I had Microsoft flight simulator.

I did all that stuff.

It was always very
interesting, you know, But I didn't

have the, like, the precedent.

Like, my dad wasn't a pilot.

Right.

There's nobody in my family.

I didn't know anybody who was
a pilot.

So it was never on my radar.

Bad pun.

Sorry.

It was never a.

I never thought it was a possibility.

So I went through college in
Orlando, and I was supposed to, while

studying to be an attorney.

No way.

Really?

Yeah, it wasn't working out.

And I did an internship at a
firm one summer.

And at the end of the summer,
I was like, there's no way I can

do this.

I can't do this for the rest
of my life.

So I was kind of stuck.

And like I said, senior year
of college, I didn't have a plan.

And I talked to my dad and
he's like, well, you know, you've

always been interested in
aviation, which is true, but I'd

never really looked into it at all.

So he's like, look into it.

The military will pay for all
that stuff.

So give it a shot.

So that's how I got my start.

I kind of had a terrible.

My plan was all my eggs in one
basket, like plan A.

No plan B or C, and just kind of.

Kind of go for it and see what
happens and set my expectations kind

of at the bottom.

So I applied to the Navy.

Well, first I applied to the
Air Force, and they were like, no,

you're not qualified.

Yeah, they're like, you're not qualified.

I was like, yeah, that's fair enough.

Like, I didn't have a.

Like a technical background, right?

Like, I was a pre law in
quotations major.

I didn't have like an
engineering background or anything

like that.

And the Navy said they take
me, which I was grateful for.

So I took the entrance exam.

I went to their officer
candidate program, got a pilot slot,

you know, got lucky along the
way, and, you know, it worked out

from there.

So as someone that was.

There was a military in your
family before, like, was military

a crazy idea to be brought up
to you in the first place, or was

it kind of not for me personally?

Like, if someone said, go to
the military, like, no, I'm good.

Hard pass.

Yeah, yeah.

Nobody in my family had ever
served before.

So it was a brand new concepts
for everybody.

So there was some learning.

There's a learning curve
within the family element, right,

of like, joining the military,
being gone, doing all that kind of

Stuff, but I kind of, I was
the first person to go and it came

with its difficulties.

Right.

You know, a lot of families
that don't have that history, it's,

it's difficult for them to
understand, hey, why are you moving

to this part of the country?

You know, why are you going on
this deployment?

When are you going to be back?

And all those questions are
hard to answer.

But I was the first one.

So, um, yeah, it was tough initially.

Did the military, obviously
when you go into something like that,

you're selected by the Navy
your dreams to be a pilot, it's up

to you to work hard.

Right?

Like they're not going to give
you a pilot side.

You got to earn it.

But before all that, like
you're doing basic training, you're

going to officer school,
pretty much just like the noob in

the military and probably
getting yelled at and forced to do

stuff that you necessarily
didn't want to do.

When you are, what you were
just a senior in undergrad, in college

and just living your best life.

Was it hard to transition to
like military mike versus civilian

mic or were you kind of like,
hey, this is like, I don't know what

else I'm going to do.

So I got to make this work.

It was definitely, I got to
make this work because I didn't have

another plan, you know what I mean?

And I went into the school
with, or officer candidate school

and the military in general
with like, I'm going to be a pilot,

I'm not doing anything else.

Right.

So like, it was like a make or
break type of scenario.

So I had to go all in on the
whole thing, you know, to make sure,

you know, I was performing
well and I was passing the tests

and I was, you know, I was
doing the physical training well,

you know, I had to go all in
and all that stuff.

But yeah, it was tough.

I mean, I went from, like you
said, public college in Florida on

my own schedule to a
regimented thing, getting up every

day at 5am it was, it was a
shock for sure, you know, but what's

interesting and cool about the
military is like, you adjust to that

new lifestyle because you have to.

Right?

Because you're getting yelled
at and you're getting, you got to

do push ups and run and stuff
like that.

So it's kind of like, well, I
have to do all this stuff.

But it was a big change.

You get used to it quick.

Yeah.

And it was only, it only took
a couple weeks until you kind of,

you dive into that routine.

It becomes A part of your
life, and that's your life now.

You know, you kind of just do
it day by day.

There was definitely the light
of the end of the tunnel thing though.

It's like, you know, I only
got to do this for a month or so,

six weeks, I think it was,
before I can move on and start flying,

which is what I really wanted
to do.

So there's like means to an
end type deal if you catch them in

drift.

Yeah.

What was the, what was the
best part of basic training or kind

of your initial six weeks and
the worst part, if there was the

best part?

Man, I don't know.

That's a difficult question.

That's a great question.

I think you're.

When you sign the dotted line
and you show up to training and the

officer candidate school
program is nothing like the basic

training in Chicago for the Navy.

So, like, basic training for
the Navy's in Chicago, officer candidate

schools in like Rhode Island.

So they're kind of separated a
little bit.

And it's nothing like that.

This is like a six, six week,
like quick and dirty.

Here's the military.

This is how you military
customs and courtesies, right?

Like, and then you're out the door.

So being a part of that big
machine of the Navy, you're in the

uniform, you know, you're
seeing other people in uniform.

That was kind of inspiring, I
guess, in a way to be a part of something

like that.

Right?

Because I went from 0 to 100,
like, like that, you know, I didn't

know what to expect.

So that was definitely cool.

And then the worst part, I
mean, no phones.

You made a phone.

You made a phone call on a payphone.

You don't even have payphones anymore.

Like when you showed up, like,
hey, to let your family know that

you were there and you made it.

I don't know how to work this thing.

Yeah, right.

So, you know, you are removed
from, I guess, like your normal day

to day life and like society
in a sense, right?

Like, you're like taken.

You're like sucked out of it, right?

And you're immersed in this world.

It was hard to get used to at first.

And the worst part was just
being away, right?

Like, we take bus rides to go
to different training exercises.

They're like a school bus.

And just like looking outside,
like, as you go by, like a Dunkin

Donuts or like a, you know, or
whatever, you know, a restaurant,

like a McDonald's, you're
like, Man, I would kill for like

Dunkin Donuts or McDonald's
Big Mac right now.

But it's quick, right?

Six weeks and it was done at
the time.

It felt like forever, but.

But you look back on it, you
know, 2020 hindsight, right?

You're like, oh, that wasn't,
that wasn't too bad.

As someone who's done officer
training school, I'm talking about

you, not me.

Obviously done officer
training school, has done the public

school, went to the big university.

Looking back on kind of your
career, do you think it would have

been more beneficial for you
to go the academy route and get in

earlier or do you prefer the
way you did it?

I'm gonna get yelled at by all
the academy guys for sure because

they, they, they love the
Naval Academy.

And I don't have anything
against the Naval Academy, Right.

Like, I've never been to
Annapolis, so I don't know.

Never been?

No, no, I've never been.

I've been to.

Now.

You need to step your game up, bro.

I mean, I've heard it's cool,
but you know, I've got a lot of friends

that have gone, but I've just
never, you know, I've never been

around that.

I will say I thought it was
way more fun to go to a four year

university and kind of have my
own life and figure out who I was

and have my own schedule and
do what I wanted to do.

Again, I don't know anything
about the Naval Academy and how they

run things, but you're in the
military from like day one, you know

what I'm saying?

So.

And you.

I've met, you know, college
guys, Naval academy guys.

I've met ROTC guys and they
all say that their way was, was the

best way to do it.

I'm biased.

I wanted my, I mean, you know,
I just wanted my college experience

to be open and I could kind of
do what I wanted.

Whereas NROTC was similar.

Right.

Like you're still going to a
university that has that program

and then the Naval academy
side is like, it's this prestigious

university, right?

And like, there's, you know, a
lot of history there.

I still stick to my guns
though, in my, my public university,

my public college there, but
that's just me.

Yeah.

Well, I recommend you go to
one where they win the national championship

football.

So, you know, go Ohio State.

Oh, yeah.

Well, hey, we hung our banner,
right, that everybody gets mad at

for.

Was it 2017 undefeated season, dude?

Yeah, I think it was 2017
National Champs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Second Alabama.

But it's cool, you can claim
whatever you want.

Yeah, Whatever.

Yeah.

So you are kind of done with
officer training school.

What's the plan?

Like, you want to be a pilot, right?

But obviously you're just
trained to be an officer.

What comes next?

What are your actionable steps
to kind of achieve your goal?

So you get assigned a pilot
slot before you even get to officer

candidate school.

So you're assigned your job
before you get there.

So you kind of know where
you're going to go pending a medical

evaluation that you do like
want to say the first week you're

there.

So as long as medically you're
like, you're good to go and there's

no issues, you can kind of
continue on that path.

You don't do anything pilot
oriented at officer candidate school

whatsoever.

So as long as the medical
thing goes well, you get out and

then you get sent down to
Pensacola for, I think they still

call it API, aviation, Pre
flight indoctrination, which is just

like Brown school.

So that's.

Everybody goes there.

Everybody goes to Pensacola.

Marines and, and Navy guys.

You do like a month or two.

It's been a while.

I did this in like 2013 of
just like classroom work.

And they used to do.

You go like fly a Cessna around.

I don't think they do that anymore.

But you do classroom work, you
take courses like navigation, like

a whiz wheel, you break a whiz
wheel out, you're doing stuff like

that.

You're doing weather, hard
pass, you're doing.

I know, dude.

So it's brutal, you know, like
you're doing like a mechanical engineering

class, you're doing an aero
class where you're learning about

like basic aerodynamics.

And then you do a little bit
of water survival training as well.

And then when you leave there,
you show up for primary flight training.

So that's kind of like just
like a intro to I guess naval aviation.

It's just classroom work, you
know, for, for a couple of weeks.

And you go there before you
know what kind of aircraft you're

going to fly, right?

Oh yeah.

What aircraft you're
eventually going to fly as a ground

school and kind of the API or.

No, no, that's just kind of
like a welcome to how we do things

in the Navy type deal as far
as aviation is concerned.

Got it.

You know, and then you show up
for your primary flight training,

which is in the T6 Texan.

That's where you figure out
what you're gonna go fly based on

your performance.

And that was the first plane
you ever flew was a T6.

Or did you Fly the Cessna.

I flew a.

Dude, I'd have to look at my logbook.

I'm so bad with civilian aircraft.

Like a Piper Cherokee or
something like that.

Okay.

But I don't think that's
required anymore.

That was required when I went through.

And you get, like, 10 hours in it.

I think that was the first
airplane I ever flew.

And then the second airplane I
flew was the T6.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Which is nuts, man.

Yeah.

Like.

And you don't even know at the
time because you're so naive.

At least I was, because I
didn't have any experience.

I'm like, okay, this is how
airplanes, you know, and other guys

that have ga experience are
like, this thing is a beast.

Like, it's.

You know, I don't know.

This thing's gonna get you, man.

You better know what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah.

So.

So you do that.

I think it's like, six months.

I want to say, I'm so bad, dude.

With the timelines.

I'm so sorry.

This is probably terrible.

Interview.

And then at the completion of
that, after you're done flying the

T6, is when you branch off.

So either go the jet pipeline,
the helicopter pipeline, or the big

wing pipeline.

So, like, the P8 and the E6
and the helicopters, we fly the 60s.

And then the jet pipeline will
take you Navy and Marine Corps both.

So it's changed recently
because I don't think they select

for the Harriers anymore, But
the Marine guys are flying Hornets

or F35.

But you don't select that yet
because you got to go flying the

T45, which is what I
instructed in.

But anyway, you branch off jet
pipeline helos, and then.

And then the big wing is kind
of where you split at the end of

flying the T6.

What was your goal, like,
going into there, like, your dream?

Was it to fly fighters?

Was it fly helicopters?

Was it five big airplanes?

What was your goal?

Dude, I joined the Navy to
land on aircraft carriers.

And, like, that's what I
wanted to do.

And that was goal number one.

I knew that that that goal was
going to be, like, extremely difficult

to get.

Like, I understood that, but I
was going to try and put my best

foot forward and do as best as
I could and get there.

Like, I didn't join the Navy
to land on runways like, I wanted

to be, you know, and carrier aviation.

That's what I wanted to do.

That being said, like, you
know, you could.

You could perform the bet.

You could be the top of your
class, and they just don't have those

slots available for that cycle.

And you know, you get sent to
something else to go fly something

else.

So that was also in the cards
as well.

So you could be number one.

Usually it doesn't happen, but
if there's some, they need helicopter

pilots or they need PA pilots,
like, that's where you're going.

So there's that in the back of
your mind too, you know, like if

you had your heart set, that's
why you always had to be.

You had to have plan B.

Right.

Like in plan C.

Hey, you know, I really want
to go fly F18s, but this is what

my backup plan is.

Like, because of duty stations
or the type of flying or like whatever.

No, but that was my goal 100%
was, was to go carrier aviation for

sure.

And there's big wing planes
that fly, that do carrier aviation.

Right.

Like the COD and the E2C2.

But that was the goal from the
get go.

And was there any time where
you thought that wasn't going to

happen?

You're like, holy smokes,
there is no chance I'm going to be

able to do this.

I mean, the learning curve was insane.

Yeah.

You'd get back from every flight.

Like, I don't know if I made
the right choice.

Like, that was like, just like
in, you know, when we're flying together

in Dallas, you're like, whoa,
that was difficult.

Right?

So, yes.

Every single day you're like,
I don't know if this is gonna work

out.

You know, like that flight
didn't go so well.

Like, it was just constant
because it's so new and it's so fast.

But as long as you have a good
group of guys.

We had like a study group, right.

That we'd study with.

Everybody ended up doing okay.

Like, there weren't a lot of
people washing out of flight school,

but still, like every single
day you walk into the squadron spaces

and you're like, man, I hope
this goes well today.

You know, so, yeah, it was
really hard.

You know, when we were in
training, you know, they always preach

like, we don't want you to fail.

Like, you have all the
resources in the world for you to

pass.

We want you to pass.

We're investing in you.

Did you feel the same way at
the military where they're like,

hey, if you can't do this,
GTFO doors right there, buddy.

Get out of here, dude.

It was very much like that.

Like, if you weren't ready,
like if you weren't prepared, it

would start in the brief, right?

Like, with preparation, like, if.

If whatever reason you were
missing a bunch of questions that

the instructor was asking you,
or like, you didn't know the system

that you were briefing that
day, or whatever the case, it depended

on the instructor.

Some guys would just cut.

Cut you right there.

Like, all right, we're done.

We're not going flying today.

Like, you don't know your stuff.

Other guys would be more
willing to take the airborne and

let you go fly and then maybe
debrief you.

Right.

Accordingly.

But everybody was on edge.

Like, there was nobody that
was comfortable.

Like, yeah, got it.

You know, like, even the guys
with prior experience, I would say

those people had a harder time
because they had a bunch of old habits

they needed to break.

Because the military wants
things done a certain way, just like

any.

Any major airline differ from
airline to airline.

But at the same time, those
guys had to break those habits.

Those guys and gals had to
break those habits, and it was difficult

for them.

Like, one of my good buddies
that went through training, he had

some GA experience and he had
to, like, completely purge all that

stuff from his brain for me.

Kind of a fresh ball of clay, right?

You can mold and do whatever
you need to to get them to fly the

way you want to fly, but every
day was nerve wracking because the

brief was the worst part.

Like, the flying was great.

I mean, flying was stressful,
but once you got in the airplane,

you're like, okay, geez, thank
God, you know, I.

Don'T have to talk anymore.

But the briefs were so
stressful, you know, and it's.

Yeah, I'd imagine it's still
that way.

Like, I instruct still, and we
still, you know, we brief hour and

a half, two hours prior to
every flight, make sure we know what

we're doing.

But, yeah, we're all scared
walking in.

As someone who, you know, it's
pretty fresh on you.

Like, you're not fresh now
because you're old as crap.

I'm just kidding.

But as someone who kind of
went through then can relate to the

new student, the one that's,
like, freaking out, and now you are

on the other side, as being an
instructor, were you more.

More kind to that?

Were you like, the guy like,
all right, hey, like, we're gonna

make this work.

You're like, hey, I went
through this, so you need to go through

this too, dude.

I call it the pledge
mentality, where if you were, like,

beat down hard in flight
school for whatever reason it could

be, however many reasons there
are, and you bring that mentality

back as an instructor.

Like, you failed as an instructor.

Like, that's my, my own own
opinion, right?

Like, I try and treat every
student with, you know, I never look

up the students I'm flying with.

Like, they show up.

It's like a blank slate.

And I just kind of try and
learn about them in the brief.

Different instructors have
different techniques on briefing

styles.

I'm of the opinion that I'm
going to figure out what, you know,

what you don't know in the airplane.

Mainly because I want to go
flying because I like it, but guys

just have different techniques.

But I've always thought that
that was unfair to the student, right?

To come in, like, you know,
just hammering them right off the

get go.

I'm going to ask you
questions, right?

And like, if I don't, if you
don't know the answer, it's like,

okay, well, that's one he
didn't know.

It was pretty easy.

1.

I just throw softballs, man.

Like, I don't, you know, I
don't ask difficult questions.

It's just stuff you need to know.

Yeah, but if it's like, you
know, one question wrong, two questions,

three questions, four
questions, and now it's like, okay,

like, I might dig a little bit
deeper, but for the most part, I

just want to create an
environment that is what I think

conducive to learning, which
is just like, hey, man, let's just

chill.

Let's have a conversation
between me and you.

Let's talk about what we're
going to go do.

And then in the debrief is
what I'm going to teach you everything.

Like, if I try and teach you
everything in a brief, talk about

all these things that maybe
you're doing for the first time,

it's just going to go in one
ear and out the other.

But if we talk about what
we're going to go do, and then we

go do it in the airplane and
then in the debrief, we're like,

okay, man, did you see how all
of this.

Does it now make sense?

Or like, do you see where you
messed up here?

Or maybe could have done that
a little bit better.

That's what I think is more
beneficial, you know, for someone

who's like, but I was walking
in super nervous, like, oh my God,

like, I need to know my bold
face procedures.

I need to know my limitations.

Like, and you're just not even
listening in the brief as a student,

you're just like reciting all
the stuff that you think you should

know.

You're just like, oh, my God,
you know, and you're not even paying

attention.

So if I can create an
environment of like, hey, man, where

are you from?

Cool.

Just small talk.

Like, just calm the tension in
the briefing space and then just

have a conversation about what
we're going to go do and then go

execute it.

The flights go so much better.

Yeah.

Which is tough to do because,
I mean, that's just how aviation.

That's kind of how life is.

Right.

Like, you get molded by your
experiences, and that's what you

know.

So you just assume that that's
how you need to teach everyone else,

and that's just how everyone learns.

And if you can't do it, you
can't do it.

It's just, like, sucks to
suck, dude.

Like, there's the door.

Get out.

But it's important to be the
person to change that.

Right.

Just because someone.

I didn't get hazed in
football, but previously, like, in

the 90s, there was a lot of
hazing in football, and just because

they're hazed, someone had to
be the person to stop that and be

like, all right, well, we're
not going to hang people from goal

posts by duct tape anymore.

It's like, it's not a good
idea to try to kill the new guy.

Like, let's just not do that anymore.

And, you know, people learn in
different ways.

Sometimes students need the,
hey, wake up, man.

What is going on right now?

And some people don't.

Like, some people don't
respond to that.

But in the future, 100%, where
they need to know what they're doing,

sure, maybe a little tough
love is prudent, but when they're

brand new and they don't know
what's going on, I try and think

where I was.

And it's like, sometimes that
approach is just doesn't.

It's not a good learning environment.

You know what I mean?

That's my take on it, anyway.

No, for sure.

I mean, yeah, you're getting
yelled at in the airplane.

Like, you're just checked out.

At that point, you're like,
all right, yeah, I don't know.

Take me back.

I don't know what's going on when.

You'Ve got your wings and
you're in an airplane, that you should

know what you're doing by all means.

Like, hey, we need to, like,
talk tough about what just happened,

because that's not cool at all.

Or, like, that's unsat.

Sure.

But when they're students,
like, yeah, not me with.

So obviously you were an
instructor we talked about that.

But talk about the T6.

I guess we talked about T6.

But what came next after T6
and kind of like the whole path to

getting where you are and your
path to choosing the airplane you

want.

Yeah.

So you go, I selected jets,
which was great.

I was super excited about that.

And then you can either go to
Kingsville, which is where.

Is where I'm in the reserve
now, or you go out to Meridian, Mississippi

and you'll go fly the T45.

Gosh, excuse me.

And then you show up there and
the syllabus has changed quite a

bit.

But I think it takes about a year.

All the production guys are
going to yell at me and the operation

guys.

It doesn't take a year to get
them out the door.

I don't know, it takes about a
year to get those guys through.

So when I went through, you
show up and you do some sims on like

basic instrument stuff and
then you go into the familiarization

stage, sitting in the front
seat, starting up the airplane stuff

like that.

And then you go into like the
more advanced stuff.

But that process takes about a
year to get them through the door.

And then you have your
selection at the end of that, culminating

in you getting your wings,
selecting the aircraft that you're

going to fly for your career
at a big ceremony that we do in an

auditorium, which is actually
pretty cool, and then you go from

there.

So I selected the, the
Growler, which is out in the Pacific

Northwest and Whitby island
wasn't my first choice.

Oh really?

Yeah, no, I had it at the
bottom which, you know, like you

look back on it and I was
upset at the time, but I don't, I

would do it again that way,
the same way I did it.

The experiences I had and the
people I met, like you just can't,

you can't change that stuff.

You know, Justin, here as a
pilot, you know that the more wealth

you accumulate, the more
complex your financial planning becomes.

From diversifying savings and
investments to proactively mitigating

tax liabilities.

There's a lot to consider.

So I'm inviting you to an
essential webinar hosted by Allworth

Airline Advisors financial experts.

They'll discuss the hurdles
other high net worth investors face

and the tactics they use to
overcome them.

Visit alworthairline.com
pilotthepilot to register for this

powerful new webinar today.

That's allworthairline.com
pilotthePilot and now back to today's

episode.

Have you had any like, for
lack of a better Word.

Sorry if your kids listening.

But like any oh shit moments
when you're.

When you're up there flying,
like doing a mission, you're like,

oh, this is bad.

Surprisingly not.

During the mission phase, all
the oh shit moments were like.

We call it in the admin phase
of flight, which is terminal area,

taking off, landing for the
most part.

Like, at least in my opinion,
the Navy and all the different branches

are really good at executing
their missions.

And then we have issues in the
admin and like the easy stuff because

we're so focused on the
mission that we just briefed for

four hours.

The terminal environment stuff
is kind of where all the shenanigans

happen, at least in my experience.

Right.

That's where we see the most.

Like, oh, moments like, oh,
God, like, that was not good.

Like, that was bad.

Like when the F35 got their
throttle quadrant or whatever, it

was stuck in armrest.

Like that kind of like, oh, moments.

Yeah, I don't know about that
one, but.

But yeah, like taking off and
landing, man.

You know, like simple stuff
that can get you into trouble if.

If you're not thinking about it.

Yeah.

And it's at the ship.

Like, when I was new, that's
all I was thinking about was landing

on the aircraft carrier.

Like, sure, yeah, mission great.

Like, got it.

You know, we'll go, we'll do
our best, but dude, especially at

night, that's in the back of
my mind the entire flight, like.

And anyone tells you different
is lying to you because, like, you

can't.

I mean, we'll focus on the mission.

Right.

But it's still back there.

Like, you're still thinking
about it.

Like, I gotta go find this
ship and I gotta go land at night

and the deck's moving and
there's no horizon and you know,

it's super scary.

So that anxiety is always there.

You're always just like, oh, crap.

Even, dude, even with the new,
like, there's more precise landing

modes that are available now.

It's called plm Precision
landing mode.

That all the fighter aircraft,
growlers, not the E2, C2 or the COD,

those are the tried and true
still ball flyers out there.

But all the, all the jets had
now have like a precision landing

mode.

That being said, it doesn't
make it any easier.

Like it's still a mind game.

Is it Mechanically easier?

Yeah, 100%.

But it's not mentally any
easier, you know, and you're always

thinking about it.

You never get used to it.

Like, you get more.

You get more familiar.

Right.

I guess is the best way to put
it with like the carrier environment.

But you're never like comfortable.

At least I was never comfortable.

Right.

And yeah, it's always in your
mind for sure.

What was your first one like?

Like the first time you took
off, the first time you're coming

in and you're like, oh f.

Like this is not gonna be good.

So the first time you do it is
by yourself, which sounds crazy.

Yeah.

But you're a student in the
T45, which is what I'm instructing

in, and you go by yourself the
first time.

So you land before you ever
take off for the first time.

And you don't really remember it.

You kind of just like are on
stem power and you're so overwhelmed

with.

At least I was.

Everything going on that you,
you trap.

Right.

You stop.

And you had practiced it and
chair flown it and done a simulator

so many times that you just go
into this like, I don't know, autopilot.

Muscle memory, like your
brain, like your body just like does

what you did in the simulator.

You don't have the muscle
memory yet for like the landing.

Like that's not there yet, but
the muscle memory sort of for like

just clearing the landing area
and like getting out is kind of there.

So you kind of stop.

That's like a car crash.

You kind of like come to a
little bit and it takes you a little

bit longer to like get your bearings.

You're like, okay, I stopped.

Like that's good.

And then you know, you're,
you're going into clearing the la

and your procedures and
cleaning up and going to get fuel

and like you're kind of just
like bang, bang.

So you don't.

I didn't remember my first trap.

Yeah, you still don't remember.

Like it just happened like you were.

It's like a mental block.

Like you don't know if it was
good or bad.

You all of a sudden, you know
as you're on the ground, you're like,

oh, dang.

No, you just black.

I mean, I blacked out.

You know, you're just like.

It's so like mentally like
task saturating.

Yeah.

That you kind of just like forget.

At least I did what happened.

It's funny, this is kind of
similar, but like not entirely similar,

but it kind of just goes to
like a high pressure.

Your first time.

Yeah.

So I went to Ohio State in the
spring, obviously have a big spring

game.

Every football team does.

And my very first play that I
had was a pass and there's a picture

I don't.

I don't think it's on the
Internet anymore because I'm old

now.

But there was a picture of me
throwing the ball.

My eyes were closed, and I was
just, like, going like this.

And my eyes are closed and I
completed it.

It was like a 30 yard pass,
but I don't remember anything about

the throw.

I don't remember where the
defense was.

I don't remember where
anything was.

I was just like, oh, my
goodness gracious, please complete

this.

And I think that's.

I mean, it's kind of a weird
thing to compare it to, but it sounds

like it's a similar situation
where you're just like, oh, you,

like, pull back.

You're like, I think I flared
and I did it.

I did it.

Hey, no flare, by the way.

You just landed.

But yes, it is.

It's the exact same thing that
you're talking about where.

Because you want to do well, too.

That's the other thing is,
like, you want so well, you want

so bad to do well that
sometimes you're so focused on what's

going on that, like, you
completely missed, you know, what

happened 20 seconds ago, which
is pretty common.

I mean, students that I talk
to now to, because I work with them,

and I, you know, and I get
them ready to go in on the ship.

Yeah.

I'm like, how was it?

Like, I don't know.

It was crazy.

What do you mean you don't know?

You just land on a plane, on
aircraft carrier, you don't remember?

It sounds about right.

Yeah.

Is it similar to, you know,
when you take your first solo?

I don't know how it is in the
military, but when you take it for

solo again, I could tell a story.

I was.

I was at Ohio State.

I was at Ohio State Airport.

I was holding short, I think
of like, nine left the bigger Runway.

Solo.

My instructor was up on the
tower at the time.

Like, there was the.

The one tower person, I think
his name was Tony.

He was a character.

And before I take off, he's
like, good luck.

We're all watching you.

Yeah.

Are you kind of, like,
psyching them up a little bit?

Are you kind of like, hey,
man, you know, there's a ton of people

on that boat.

They're gonna hold up scorecards.

They're all gonna be watching you.

Like, do you kind of mess with
their brain a little bit, or is it

just like whenever it's the
first day to go in on a ship, you're

like, all right, this is where
you're like, hey man, you got this.

Like, you're going to be great.

It's more positive, right?

Like, I don't try and play
mind games with, with anybody because

one, I think it's kind of
messed up, you know, like what they're

about to go do is the most
dangerous thing that we do in the

Navy.

So no, I, when I.

And it's a long brief, man,
it's like three hours.

I try and keep it short.

I don't ever brief for that
long because you just lose people,

you know, and they're, they're
not even listening to you anyway.

They're thinking about landing
on a boat.

Yeah, they're crapping their pants.

They're just like.

So I hit the big ticket items.

Like, hey, these are the
frequencies we need to be on when

in doubt.

Just because I take them out
there on my wing.

Like, just fly good formation.

I'll pass.

I'll push you through all the
frequencies you need to be on and

then I'll get you to your safe
space, which is the ship.

Because you've thought about
this for the past month and you've

done it in the simulator a
little bit.

I'll get you to your safe
space and then it's, you know, it's

kind of on you.

But, you know, trust what
you've learned.

Trust your paddles, your, your
lso, who's the instructor that's

done one on one instruction
with, with them and is on the back

of the boat talking to them on
the phone.

So trust them.

You trust yourself and like,
everything is going to be fine.

There's so many safety nets in
place that if it starts to get weird,

it's very easy to just wave
them off, get rid of them, and we'll

try again.

You say it's very easy, but I
feel like in that moment, you know,

you're so hyper focused that
maybe you just like lock up, right?

Like someone's like, all
right, go around, go around.

You're just like, do to do, do
to do.

Gonna fly.

Gotta land, gotta land, gotta land.

Dude, we, we practice for a
month, every single day.

It's called FCLP Field Carrier
Landing Practice.

And it's the same setup sort
of that you're gonna see on the ship

where there's a painted
landing area on the Runway.

So it's smaller, it's off to
the left hand side.

The visual aid that they use
called the iflaws or the meatball

is the same one that's on the boat.

The communication between the
LSO and the Student is the same on

the boat, so nothing really
changes except there's a boat out

there and there's water
everywhere, right?

And as lsos, we don't.

When they're first starting,
we'll maybe accept some worse performance

or like, somebody who's not
doing too well, but as you progress

through, like, you need to be
doing well at the field before we

take you out to the boat.

And that's an evaluation that
we do at the end of their three or

four weeks that they do
bouncing at the field.

And even when they get to the
ship, there are procedures in place

to not put them in a dangerous
situation, if that makes sense.

Even if things go.

Even if things get real weird,
we can kind of get rid of them and

wave them off or send them
back to the beach, back to the shore

to make sure that, like, hey,
we're not doing anything unsafe,

you know.

Is that like a big day on the boat?

Or do they try to, like, is
everyone kind of just like, we got

the new guys coming in?

Do they all, like, want to
watch and, like, see how it goes?

Or like, we're doing vacation.

I'm getting off this boat.

Time.

Time to get out of here?

No, we fly.

So the T45 is painted oil
orange and white, which I cannot

stand because it's like, they
call it the clown.

The clown jet.

Which is true.

And they'll be like, oh, the
clown jets are coming out today.

Like, everybody be on your A game.

Which is true because it's the
first time they've ever done it right.

However, all the flight deck
personnel sometimes use that time

to train their new people.

So you've got brand new pilots.

You've also got brand new
flight deck personnel.

Everybody's supervised,
obviously, but people have to learn

somehow, you know what I mean?

So sometimes it's, you know, a
recipe for disaster.

But like I said, the flight
deck personnel, like those guys that

are trained up, are experts.

You know, they're really good
at their job.

As lsos, we take pride in what
we do, too.

And we wouldn't let anybody
put themselves in a situation that

was, you know, unsafe or
anything like that.

What's like, worst case
scenario in a carrier landing?

Is it you're lined up, like,
to hit the ship, you're gonna hit,

like, the control tower?

Is it you missing the wire or
getting yourself in a spot where

you don't have enough Runway
or thrust left to get off the.

And you have to pull the shoot
kind of what's like, oh, crap, there's.

So Many worst case scenarios.

There's like a million three.

Dude.

Every landing is the worst
case scenario.

Like for real.

You make it sound so much fun.

Oh God.

Anytime it's dark.

Yeah, I wouldn't say.

I would say if you start
combining emergencies with crappy

weather with nighttime, that's
when stuff people need to be on their

A game.

That's when it gets bad.

And by bad I mean everyone's
just uptight about it.

We train for those situations
all the time.

We're always practicing our
emergency procedures and landing

aboard the ship with an
emergency and everybody's briefed

up on the issue.

There's no scenario where like
anyone should be surprised, I would

say, because we've kind of
prepared for the worst case scenario.

But as a pilot, if I have some
sort of malfunction that's affecting

my configuration, that's the
big one, right?

Like landing on the ship.

So if I have a flight control
issue that's requiring me to fly

at a faster airspeed, or if I
have a gear malfunction, like if

the gear is either not
confirmed down in lock or have a

trailing gear, something like
that, and the weather's bad and it's

at night or the decks moving,
right, like the sea state is, is

up there, that's when it gets hairy.

So I would say you kind of
have to combine a couple different

things to get to like worst
case scenario.

And the crazy thing is is like
you'll see those scenarios a lot

on deployment, right?

Like that's kind of what we do.

But everyone's really
professional about it.

And I've never been in a
situation where I'm like, this is

going to go bad.

You know, it's always been
like, hey, let's work the problem.

Let's figure this out and
let's get our boy or our girl on

deck and we'll go from there.

What was like your particular.

Maybe like top two, Top one.

Kind of just like, oh yeah,
this is going to be fun.

So I lost my motor in the T45,
which is the only one we have.

Briefly.

Yeah, briefly.

That was one where.

And I was a student at the
time too.

I didn't have my wings yet.

That was definitely one.

And then the other one was
kind of self induced.

So I'll talk about the first one.

So I was doing a BFM sortie
which is a basic fighter maneuvers.

Kind of like dog fighting, right?

You're kind of learning the basics.

And in the T45 it's Alpha
restricted because if you pull too

much alpha at slow speed, it
restricts the airflow into the motor,

and you choke the motor and
you compress or stall.

It's like a.

No, it's a known issue, so
we're never really maneuvering beyond

that.

Alpha.

It's like 24 units or so.

And this was the second flight
of the day.

And my instructor was like,
you got to pull more for shots.

You're not pulling for shots.

Like, you know, like, you got
to be more aggressive.

And I was like, roger that, done.

And you're, you know, you're.

You're a student.

You don't.

You're naive, right?

Like, you don't think the jet
can break.

Like, you think you're
invincible and your.

Instructor'S telling you to
pull more.

So clearly you just need to
pull more.

Well, within reason, right?

Like not.

Not to break or not to go
outside the envelope.

But I did and I, I pulled for
a shot, super slow airspeed, and

I just put the stick in my lap.

So I spiked the AOA all the
way, like, to stalled and I, I.

Compressor stalled the motor.

So I had the EGT come up on me.

So I had, I was upside down.

So I had the master caution,
master warning EGT RPM light, which

is, hey, your GT is out of
limits or your RPM or whatever.

So.

And it kind of happened in
slow motion.

You fly the airplane first, right?

That's what we've always been told.

So recover the airplane.

Step one was recover the
airplane and go to idle and kind

of assess what's going on.

We were probably around like
15 or 16,000ft, so we weren't that

high.

So I got straight and level.

And my instructor at the time,
he's like, what's going on?

Because we called a knock it
off, right?

Anytime you have any sort of
emergency while you're doing any

sort of engagement, you call a
knock it off.

It just means like, oh, stop.

Everybody stop what you're doing.

Like, everybody check in.

Cool.

He's here, he's here.

Let's figure out what's going on.

Everybody stop fighting.

So that's what we did.

He's like, what's up, man?

You know, like, very casual on
the radio.

I'm like, my EGT is at a
thousand degrees, which is well out

of limits.

And I'm pretty sure I'm have
to shut down the engine.

And he's like, okay.

And in our procedures, there's
like a six second delay to where

you wait for the EGT to respond.

So you wait for it to kind of
creep back on You.

And it was going super slow.

And he's like, hey, what's it
at now?

That's not good.

It's still up around 8, 900 degrees.

He's like, shut it down.

And I was like, say again?

Like, on the radio.

10.

He's like, shut the engine down.

Because that's the next part
of the procedure, which bet on me,

because that's bold face, right?

Like, if it's out of limits,
you shut the engine down and try

a restart.

So that throttle was at the
off stop for like a millisecond,

because I was like, nope.

And I put it back to idle,
which is part of the procedure.

You pull it off, you put it
back to idle, you engage the gts.

It's like an apu and motor
starts spooling back up.

Everything worked out, but
there was a time where I was kind

of just gliding, you know,
with no motor, and everything got

very, very, very quiet.

And, like, it crossed my mind,
like, you might have to get out of

the airplane, you know, if.

If the motor doesn't come back.

But it worked out.

Motor came back, had to do a
couple other things to get the systems

reset.

And then we came back to land,
and they were like, all right, nice

job.

You gonna go fly tomorrow?

And I was like, I guess so.

Sure.

Like, you know, you're like,
you're gonna.

Let me fly tomorrow, dude.

Give me a day.

Give me a day to process this.

But my one claim to fame on
that whole experience was I checked

in with base, right?

Like, it would be ops or
something like that in the 121 world

just to let them know what was
going on.

And then when I landed, they
were like, dude, you sounded very

calm.

You sounded, like, cool and collected.

And I was like, that's a win, brother.

I'll take that.

I was freaking out.

Freaking out, yeah, for sure.

So that was probably, you
know, losing an engine is probably

top top five.

And then the other one was
self induced out at the ship at night

where I just couldn't land.

What do you do when you can't land?

Obviously you have to land,
right, dude.

You pad your fuel in the
beginning of deployment to give you,

like two or three looks at a
landing if it doesn't go well.

And then after that, you got
to go to the tanker, and they'll

kind of hold your hand when
you start.

There's always a divert that's
pretty close that you could go to

if you need to.

Got it.

But we were in a scenario
where the divert was really Far away.

I can't remember how far it
was, but not, like, a quick trip.

So I boltered twice and had to go.

No, two or three times and had
to go to the tanker, which is a whole

nother scenario because it was dark.

I was the only dude airborne
because it's the last recovery.

So I'm just me.

It's just me and the tanker, right?

So, like, I boltered three
times and, like, I'm kicking myself.

I'm like, what's going on?

It's like an emotional roller coaster.

I joined up on the tanker.

He's like, hey, how much gas
do you want, man?

Like, super calm, collected.

I'm like, give me all of it.

Give me everything you got.

Let me go back to max trap.

Unload it all, dude.

Give me all of it.

Yeah, I get a good bag of gas.

I bolter again, like, for the
fourth time, and I'm like, dude,

I don't.

Is the hook even on the airplane?

Like, what is going on?

And I was getting talked down
so many lsos, or they were giving

me glide slope calls and
lineup calls, like, all the way to

touchdown.

Just couldn't.

Couldn't figure it out that night.

I was second month of my first
deployment, so I'm brand new.

I'm a nugget.

I was like, great, this is
what I need.

I'm supposed to be under the
radar, but now I'm, like, highlighting

myself, because on the ship,
everybody knows who you are.

It's televised.

All the recoveries are
televised on the ship's tv.

And your name is up there with
how many times you've missed, right?

It's like B for bolter.

It's like, B, B, B, B.

So I've got, like, five
bolters come around for the fifth

or sixth time.

I can't remember.

And finally I finally land,
and I got a standing ovation from

my squadron when I walked.

It was the worst.

It was awful.

And, like, I went with the
worst part about that whole story

was afterwards I went into
this, like, slump.

You know how, like, hitters.

Yeah.

You know, and then it was just.

Because it was just right.

Yeah, yeah.

It was just back there.

And, like, I couldn't get out
of it.

And I was flying terrible
passes for the next couple of days

after that whole thing went down.

And I had to, like, dig myself
out of this weird slump that I was

in.

And it was really frustrating
because it's like, you know, you're

better than that.

You're like, why?

How is this happening to me?

Like, what is going on.

Like, I know I can do better.

So.

Yeah, I'm glad you brought
that up, because the only.

I mean, that happens in
civilian training.

That happens in training, in
general 121 training, right?

I mean, there's days where
you're like, dude, how did I even

get to this point?

Like, how did.

How did I even learn how to
take off land?

Like, whatever it is, like,
how come I'm messing this up?

But the only way to continue
it and the only way to do it is just

to fly through it.

Like, you have to keep doing it.

You have to keep just hitting
your head against the wall until

eventually your head goes
through the wall and you're like,

oh, cool, we got it.

Now we're done.

And one thing I'm grateful for
is, like, my boss was like, you're

flying tomorrow.

Like, get back in there.

You know?

Like, there was no law.

There was no time to sit there
and just, like, feel sorry for yourself.

Right?

Because there's no time for that.

Like, go figure it out.

And if you keep messing it up,
we'll look at your tapes and figure

out what you're doing wrong
and then go from there.

But you can't just sit there
and dwell on it.

You know what I mean, Dude?

Being a fighter pilot, and
when you just said, like, look at

your tapes and do all this
stuff, there's so many football comparisons

to that where, like, they
always used to say the tape is never

as.

Or like, your play or you're
flying, in your case, is never as

good as you think it was or as
bad as you think it was.

Like, we're gonna go back,
we're gonna review it, but, like,

it wasn't as bad as you
thought it was.

Like, you did some good
things, or if you did great, it's

like, well, you actually kind
of messed this up, too.

You almost killed everyone.

But great lightning, by the way.

Yeah, same thing in football.

It's like, hey, you threw two
interceptions, but, like, look at

all these good decisions you
made right here.

Like, there's so many
parallels between the two.

It's really interesting.

Yeah, and it's.

It's important to pick out the
goods and the bads.

Like, when you're looking at the.

I mean, looking at tapes for.

For a carrier landing, there's.

There's only 18 seconds at the
most of.

Of usable.

Well, that's not true, but
it's not a lot of tape.

Right.

You know, so there's only a
few things to look at.

But at the same time, in
General, like when you're doing a

tapes debrief, when you're
looking at the whole flight and how

you did this and how you.

There's always like, hey, pull
out of that.

Three things you did well and
three things you didn't do so well.

We don't even call them bad.

There's, like, three goods and
three others that you can improve

on for the next flight.

And that's, you know, every
single debrief.

So, you know, we never really.

I mean, I want to transition
to the 121 world, but I feel like

we're missing a really
important part of aircraft refueling

and figuring that out.

Because outside, like, in my
brain, outside of land, landing on

a carrier, trying to just get
this little hose to hook up into

your airplane and then stay
connected and not crash and kill

both the airplane and knock
out both airplanes.

Like, that just seems
impossible to learn.

Yeah, you learn how to fly
formation first.

So that's kind of the first piece.

And you fly it a lot.

It's all you do.

Like, every time you go fly,
you're in formation with 1, 2, 3,

4 other airplanes.

That's kind of the first step
is to kind of get comfortable there.

And then there's different
types of tankers out there, too.

Like, there's what we call
organic tanking, which is an F18

with a refueling pod on the
bottom of it, where you're joining

up on another F18 and he's
putting the hose out and you're plugging

and doing all that.

The first time you do it,
though, is you do it.

You do it for real.

There's no, like, simulator.

There's no.

There's, like, videos of
people doing it and, like, briefs

on, like, hey.

And techniques.

Right.

Everybody has their own
technique on, like, how it should

be done, but you don't really
know until you do it yourself.

And what I found was, like,
the whole slow is smooth type deal,

which is true in all of aviation.

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

That was kind of the ticket or
the key to success in refueling on

any.

Doesn't matter if it was a big
wing Air Force KC135 or an F18.

It was doing the simple things Good.

Which was joining up on the
airplane and getting into position

and then kind of just taking
it slow, like, not rushing anything.

But, yeah, it's a trip.

Like, the first time you do it.

Is it harder to be the tanker,
or is it harder to be the jet getting

the fuel?

So I've never been a tanker pilot.

Yeah.

But Those guys are good at
what they do because at the ship,

if you know, you'll know a
certain guy is low on fuel and you

got to put yourself in a
position so that he can come off

a touch and go or a bolter or
whatever the case is and be right

at your 11:00 or 2:00, it
depends, but right there.

So, like, you come off this
touch and go or this bolter and he

should be right where he needs
to be.

So you just pull the IFR probe
out and you plug and you've got gas

and it's quick.

So those guys are really good
at what they do.

So I don't think, I mean,
plugging is one thing, like getting

in the basket is super
difficult, but also managing your

little tanker pattern is also
super, super difficult as well.

Like, I was so grateful that
night where I came off of that bolter

and I needed fuel and that's
the worst thing you need gas and

you get right now.

And like, the longer you wait,
the worse it gets.

And he was, bang, he was right there.

The hose was already out.

And like all I had to do was
kind of like snuggle up and plug

and snuggle up, which was not
easy, right.

Like, you know, I was super
nervous about it, but.

So, I don't know, I don't
think anyone is more harder than

the other.

But, you know, plugging at
night is definitely more difficult,

especially if you're on night
vision goggles and you're in the

weather and the tanker's in a
turn, right.

Like at the end of the day,
it's just flying formation because

once you plug, getting in is
the hard part, so to speak.

Once you get in now, you're
just flying formation, right.

And, and it becomes a little
bit easier.

Unless it's a KC135, which is
a little bit harder to do because

you have to actively manage
your plug in the basket the whole

time.

But interesting.

That's a whole nother can of worms.

We'll have to.

I wish we could phone call or
like patch in Leland right now.

Leland is another guy who is
in training and he, he was my training

partner and he, we, we did the
737 training together and then he

dipped and now he's learning
how to fly tanker and he'll be back

soon.

But he would probably tell us
that he has a harder.

For sure.

Yeah.

I mean that, you know, they've
got to be where they have to be at

a certain time, right, for
everybody to go get fuel.

And you know, somebody without
experience would.

Be like, oh, you just sit there.

And turn circles in the sky.

It's like, I'm sure there's
more going on than that.

You know what I mean?

They're managing all that fuel
in the airplane to make sure everybody

gets the right amount of gas.

Like, I'm sure there's a lot
to it, so.

Right.

I want to make a joke about
how he's.

I wanted to say he's the first
Amish pilot in the Air Force.

Oh, yeah.

But only Leland would laugh at that.

So that stays on the podcast.

Just know it's just for Leland
and Mike.

All right, nice three person
group chat.

Yeah, always fun.

All right, so we are making
our transition to 121 world.

You finally realize like, all
right, this is cool.

Done it for 11 years.

Time to.

To see what the real world.

I don't say real world, but
time to see what the civilian world

is like.

What was.

Was there a lot of anxiety
about kind of moving in be like,

all right, I'm a fighter
pilot, like, getting into a crude

environment, CRM, you know,
dealing with much more personalities.

Was that anxiety kind of
drifting for you at all or were you

kind of just like, I can do
it, it'll be fine?

No, I was definitely humbled
by the whole experience.

Not from a crew resource
management or CRM standpoint, but

from a, like, learning that
world, the 121 world and how they

operate.

And I mean, learning a new
airplane too.

Like, it was, it was really
challenging from a CRM standpoint.

Fighter guys get a bad rap
because they're like, and I'm not

even a fighter guy.

I'm a growler guy.

Right.

Like, I got to put that out
there because all the VFA dudes will

get mad.

Yeah.

You know, they get a bad rap
when we show up in training and they're

like, oh, these, you know,
these jet guys, like, they don't

know anything about CRM.

We got to teach them.

It's like, I think, I don't
think that's true at all.

You know, anytime you're going
up, anywhere you go, you have a wingman.

So not only are you flying
your airplane, but in some scenarios,

like you're helping the guy
fly his airplane.

So, like, the communication
piece has to be there.

Like the mission analysis
piece has to be there.

The assertiveness has to be there.

Like all of those same things
that we talk about when we talk about

CRM you are doing in another
airplane or sometimes three or four

airplanes so for me, I think
going into that a multi crew concept

was not a challenge.

It was not difficult to
communicate and maybe get my point

across or ask a question or
maybe assert something, you know,

it wasn't.

I didn't see that as a challenge.

I saw learning the airplane
and doing it the 121way as a bigger

challenge because there was a brief.

For a brief amount of time,
I'm like, it's just taking off and

landing.

It's just going from point A
to point B.

Like, it's not going to be difficult.

But the learning curve was steep.

And I was humbled, as you
know, because we had multiple breakfast

and dinner talks about it.

I was like, man, this is.

This is like a lot harder than
I thought it was going to be.

You know what I mean?

And there's this like, weird
concept in the military world as

you're transitioning out
because you're talking to all your

buddies.

Hey, you know, how is it?

Like, oh, it's great.

You know, it's.

You got all this time off.

It's easy, man.

Like.

But those guys have been out
of training for a couple years and

they forgot, I think, so.

It was challenging, man.

It was really hard to do.

Yeah, I thought it was really interesting.

You know, everyone's like,
dude, training is so easy.

They hold your hand.

But in the moment itself,
like, looking back on it, it really

wasn't.

I don't think any.

There was anything really
difficult, right?

But like, in the moment,
definitely felt the stress of training

and definitely was like, oh, yeah.

I keep saying it's easy, but,
like, I feel like I kind of suck

right now.

Like, this feels way harder
than they're.

Letting on because it was so new.

It was so new.

Like, the way you talk on the
radio, like, was so.

The way you manipulate the
system, the way you Flight plan,

like, all that stuff was brand new.

Like, they were.

Took our first couple, not the sims.

But the smaller, you know, the
gfs or.

Yeah, yeah, they, you know, I was.

And I had a first officer as
my partner, so just like you did.

And I was sitting in the left seat.

And they're like, all right,
go ahead and get the conversation

going with the ground personnel.

What?

Like, what do you mean?

He's like, are you gonna call for.

Like, you're gonna talk to
them about pushing you guys back?

I'm like, dude, I have no idea
what you're talking about.

Like, is it a frequency?

He's like, no, it's on this panel.

You know, you press this
button and there's a head sat down

there, and I was, like, blown away.

Right.

Like, I didn't know.

So it was just different, you
know, and it was just something.

And I'm still.

It's going to take me forever to.

To.

To learn it, you know, I'm
still learning.

Every single day I go out
there, I learn something new, which

is aviation, but, like, you know.

Yeah.

The ramp procedures in
particular were the toughest.

Not necessarily the toughest,
but, like, I had to think the most

about because I was.

So far.

I've never done ramp stuff before.

I've never done, like you
said, talking through that.

And we're fofo.

You of had to do some of the
captain stuff.

Obviously, they don't expect
you to do all of it, but keep the

flow going is what they always said.

Yeah.

And it's like, I don't know.

And they're like, all right,
what's the captain going to do?

And you're like, no clue, man.

I'm trying to learn my stuff
over here, you know, I don't know.

But it all worked out.

It was.

It was great training.

It was.

It was fun to go through with
friends and to kind of see each person

progress.

Like, I remember having
conversations you.

And you're just like, dude,
this whole, like.

Like this whole section right
here, it's like, I can do everything

else, but, like, this.

I don't know.

Yeah.

And it was good to see people.

This sounds terrible.

Struggling as well, because
you get out of those sims and you're

like, that was awful.

That was the worst sim.

I never had a sim experience
like that in the military ever.

I was messing everything up.

Like, that was awful.

And then, you know, you talk
to other guys, you're like, yeah,

I did the same thing.

You're like, all right, well,
I guess we're kind of learning all

this stuff together.

You know, it was funny because
we were a day ahead of you, Right.

So we would always text you,
like, oh, dude, wait till day five.

Wait till tomorrow.

I'm glad.

I'm glad I had you guys in
front of me because I kind of had

some gouge on what to expect.

But, man, doing that without
kind of a.

A tight little group would be tough.

Yeah, it'd be really tough.

Just as, like, a social outlet
and everything and just, like, keeping

your sanity in general, like,
it'll be tough.

Yeah.

When you were applying to
places, did you have a support system

coming out of the military?

Did you lean on your friends
in the military?

They've done this before, or
were you kind of like, hey, I live

in this part of the country.

Like, I really just want this
one airline.

Or you're like, boom, apply to
everyone who's gonna hire me.

So my active duty job was in
Texas, so there's a ton of United

guys because they work out of Houston.

They're super close because I
was in South Texas, so there was

a lot of that.

So I had access, which is
unfortunate for.

From the reserve side because
the active duty component and the

reserve component kind of fly together.

So there's a lot of guys and
girls that had 121 experience that

were already doing it.

So for the application
process, I felt actually pretty good

about it because I had so many resources.

As far as where I decided to
go, it was strictly location based

for me.

Like, I knew I wanted to go to
this part of the country because

that's where I'm from.

And everything else is gravy.

Like, you know, everything
else will kind of like work itself

out.

But it was nice to have all
those resources for resumes and letters

of rec and all that stuff
coming out of the military, for sure.

Did you have multiple
interviews and multiple offers, or

was it just like one and done?

Yeah, I had two interviews and
two offers, and I kind of stopped

right there because I got what
I wanted.

Yeah.

And I was like, yeah, you
know, I.

And there was other people
that interviewed everywhere and had

four CJOs.

You know, I don't know if this
is true, but this was my mindset.

It's like, well, if I tell
three of those people no.

Am I going to be turned away
if for whatever reason I don't like

where I'm going and I have to
now go back to that other company

that I told no, you know,
like, would that be.

Oh, like, is that gonna look bad?

So.

And I knew where I wanted to
go, so, like, why would I go anywhere

different?

I don't know.

People may think that's dumb,
but, like, that's what that was my

mentality.

I feel like people do it all
the time, though, right?

Like, you hear people like,
yeah, I got the cj, the cjo.

I haven't told this other
place no yet.

Yeah, I'm here in class and
I'm seeing how it goes.

Or it's like, okay, good for you.

Like, you play your game, you
do what you need to do to make it

work.

I think some people treated
them like trophies, like little,

little ribbons.

And I'm like, all right,
that's cool, man.

You know, there's A bunch of
guys, they're like, oh, I got four

Ch.

Four Ch.

Four CJOs.

I'm like, okay, I had one.

Cool.

Yeah, like, you know, good for
you, bro.

Delta never called me back, so
I wasn't cool enough.

I knew just for location.

Right.

Like, quality of life with my family.

That's where I wanted to be,
and that's what I ran with.

Yeah.

I'm the similar.

Similar boat right there.

Living in North Carolina.

Everyone can figure it out.

I've already said it before,
but, like, just the.

The ability to eventually
drive to where I need to go is just.

Just makes so much more sense.

And it's the perfect place.

And I will say all the people
I've ever dealt with have been great.

Except for you.

No, I'm just kidding.

Including you and Leland.

And the support system that
was there was amazing.

And just flying in the line's
been good too.

Like, all the people have been
great, and it's been a great experience.

So shout out to our airline if
they're listening to this.

Yeah, definitely.

It's.

It's been great.

And yeah, you know, one.

One piece of advice I got from
some of the reserve guys was commute

to one.

So if you can.

And I commute to my reserve
job and I drive to work for my airline.

Yeah.

Doing both.

Commuting to both is rough
just based on people that I've talked

to in the past.

So that was also on my mind too.

It's like, well, I don't want
to commute to both.

I want to drive to at least one.

So that played a factor as well.

Yeah.

How has someone that has been
in the military, you kind of had

like, three different lives, right?

Like, you had pre military,
military military and post military.

And granted, you're still in
the reserves, but, like, you're back

into the civilian world.

Right.

Like, you're doing it again.

You're having the kind of
experience, but with your wife and

you have two kids.

How has the transition been to
the airline world?

Has it been kind of stressful
for you guys?

Has the schedule been tough?

Being that we're both junior?

There was a hiring freeze.

It hasn't been ideal
necessarily for schedule wise, but

how has that been?

Because a lot of times I feel
like that kind of gets passed over.

Everyone just says, like, oh,
yeah, like, you're gonna make so

much money eventually.

You're gonna have so much time
off eventually, and you just kind

of forget about.

Well, in the meantime, like,
you keep saying eventually, but,

like, what is that?

Like a Year is that dude,
like, how long is that gonna be?

So talk a little about like
just in.

Just life with, with the.

With two young kids and a wife.

Yeah, my wife and I are
terrible at planning because we moved,

had our second kid and started
technically two new jobs all within

like two months.

So when you started training,
you had like a, like a two week old

or like a, like.

Yeah.

And that's in the military.

That's like common.

It's like, yeah, well, but
people, I told people that and they're

like, what are you doing?

Why are you killing yourself?

So it's poor planning on our
part, but the, the time away from

home, I think my family is
used to.

That's a bad word.

They understand it.

You never really get used to it.

I was gone a lot in the
military, but I didn't have kids

at the time because I had my
son at the tail end of my career

where I wasn't gone as much as
I was.

I was still working every day.

I was still gone 12, 13, 14
hours a day.

But what's different about it
is now that when I'm home, when I'm

not working with the airlines
and I'm obviously not new in my reserve

stuff, I'm like home all day.

Like, I don't get text
messages, I don't get emails.

I don't have to follow up with
anybody about anything.

I don't have to join a teams
meeting or whatever the heck it is.

I can just be at home, which
is like, great.

It's awesome.

Like, I can take my son to school.

I wouldn't have been able to
do that and pick him up from school.

It sounds dumb, but it's the best.

Yeah, it's, you know, or, you
know, skip school one day and we

go to the beach.

Right?

Like, yeah, that's what I
enjoy about it.

I mean, is the op tempo, I
would say, is similar.

As busy as it was in the
military, transitioning into the

airlines.

I mean, you, me and you, we've
talked about it, are super busy at

the moment because we're new
and that's part of the job and I

get it and that's fine.

So the tempo is similar.

But when I'm home, like, I can
throw my phone and my iPad, like

in the garbage and it doesn't
matter because.

Doesn't matter at all.

It doesn't matter.

So that's, that's something
that I've really enjoyed up to this

point.

Yeah.

So now you are.

Let's say we're almost done
with our probation year, so we guess

we still could get fired.

But as someone who has, I will
say, quote, unquote, with some quotations,

we have successfully entered
the 121 world.

You know, it's kind of like
the last stop really.

As a pilot, like, it's kind of
like what your career, everyone looks

up to, getting to, you know,
the major, to a legacy airline.

Looking back on your career,
do you have any kind of like regrets

or anything that you wish you
had done?

Do you wish you would have
left active duty earlier?

Do you wish you would have
come here earlier?

Like, kind of what?

Talk me through that a little bit.

I think I left at the right time.

I think there comes a point in
my opinion in the military where

you've kind of done all you
can, not all you can do.

I had experienced, I think all
that I could experience, which is.

Sounds bad, right?

Because some people are like,
yeah, you know, I served my country

for 20 years and that's,
that's all good and great.

I did 11 years and I felt like
I had done my job and my duty and

it was time to do something different.

I think, I think, and I heard
this somewhere.

I can't steal it, or I should,
I'm stealing it from somebody else.

Is like, you are kind of like
meant to think that the military

is like the eight.

Like, it is the best it will
ever get.

Your time in the military,
like, that is who you are.

That's as good as it's ever
gonna get.

After you get out, it's all downhill.

Don't even think about it.

Like, you gotta do it.

You gotta do 20 years and, and
you got to retire and that's how

you're going to, like, you
know, that's how you're going to

be remembered, which I don't
really agree with.

Like, you know, there's so
many different chapters in your book,

you know, that you can open up.

So I think I left at the right time.

And for me personally, it was
all about my family too.

Like, I couldn't.

Well, I would have been told
to do but a nine month deployment

with two kids at home, like,
guys do it.

People do it all the time, right?

Like, and it's, it's
commonplace in the military, but

I didn't want to do that, right?

And I wanted to get out.

And I left the growler because
of that.

Like, I left the Pacific
Northwest to come down to an instructor

tour in Texas because the
ability to kind of transition out

after you're done with that
tour is A little bit easier than

it is if I would have stayed
flying the Growler.

So, you know, I made some
decisions to start getting out the

door and get my foot out the
door to do something else.

The airlines made sense,
because it's like, well, what else

am I going to do?

I've spent 11 years flying,
and I think that's what I want to

continue to do.

So that seemed like the right decision.

It's not like I ever had this
dream of becoming an airline pilot.

You know what I mean?

It's just.

It's.

I mean, you didn't know you wanted.

To find until your senior
year, right?

Well, exactly.

You know, I've kind of always just.

I've kind of thought about
things and done them as they've come

up, because I think it's silly
to be like, well, 10 years from now,

I'm doing this.

It's like, your plans change.

Like, I've had two kids.

You know what I mean?

Like, what if I didn't have kids?

Would I have stayed in?

I don't know.

Maybe.

So, yeah, I forgot what your original.

Question was, but just what?

Do you have any regrets in
your career?

Do you, like, do you wish you
would have left earlier, but you

pretty much answered, that's right?

Ye.

No, I don't think so.

I think I left at the right time.

That's good, dude.

Yeah.

And, like, you know, I'm still
in the reserve, still doing that

and trying to get to 20 years
doing that.

So get that retirement, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, we'll see.

Well, dude, that's all I got
for you, man.

I appreciate you coming on.

It was a good time.

I think that it.

It didn't bomb.

Like, we were afraid it was
going to, you know, I did.

I wasn't worried.

You were worried.

I wasn't worried either.

I knew it was going to be good.

If anything, we would just
make fun of Leland the whole time.

So I hope he listens, and I
hope he's super jealous that he wasn't

on.

Should I never have him on now.

Like, there's just gonna be a
thing where Leland never comes on

the podcast.

Don't let him ever.

I don't think he's alive.

I'll put it up to vote.

We'll put it out there.

Be like, all right, should
Leland ever come on the podcast,

I'll put a story on and click
yes or no.

And Leland, your fate is not
in your hands.

I apologize.

Yeah, I'll call him every 20
minutes to shake it up a little bit.

All Right, dude.

Well, hey, I appreciate you
coming on.

It's been a while.

It's almost been what, six
months since we.

We've seen each other when we
hung out every single day for.

For six weeks it feels like.

But we'll have to meet back up.

The group chat's always going
off, which is great.

But maybe I'll come down to Miami.

You're moving in soon to a new
house, living the airline life.

So yeah, I'm gonna have to
come down and meet up, man.

But I appreciate you coming on
and I wish you the best and I hope

you can hang out with your
kids and have some fun.

No sweat.

Thanks, Justin.

I appreciate it.

If you enjoyed this episode,
please leave us.

Review on Spotify on itunes,
on Spotify.

Looking at right now we have
925 reviews.

Trying to get to a thousand at
some point this year.

So I mean no big deal if you
don't do it now, but if you haven't

left a review, just go ahead
and type it down.

Leave a review.

That'd be awesome.

I appreciate you guys so much
and AV Nation, thank you so much

for listening and as always,
happy flying.

Pilot Pilot LLC is compensated
to make recommendations to his or

her followers regarding the
services of RAA or Allworth Airline

Advisors Companies of Allworth
Financial LP or Allworth Promoter

is not an employee or
investment advisor representative

of Al Worth.

Promoter is a current client
of Allworth Allworth based Promoter

a fee of $4,000 a month for
sponsorship of the Pilot Pilot podcast.

Due to the compensation
arrangement between Allworth and

Promoter, Promoter has an
incentive to recommend Allworth resulting

in material conflict of interest.

Promoter's role on behalf of
Allworth is limited strictly to making

recommendations regarding the
services of Allworth introducing

or referring prospective
clients to Allworth.

Promoter has no responsibility
with respect to Allworth's Investment

advisor or other advisory services.