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Real stories and small steps toward a more sustainable life.
We talk to people building climate-friendly startups, making better choices in daily life, or just trying something new. Each episode is a chance to learn, get inspired, and maybe try one thing yourself.
Navdha Malhotra (00:00)
The challenge is the implementation and the challenge is that evolution remains a rich person's problem.
And that's the way it's being framed currently, right? Like we have the luxury of doing something about it. We are the ones also causing it because of our vehicles and stuff. We are not the ones who wear the brunt of it.
I feel that putting the pressure on individuals to take steps is so unfair because the penalty needs to be paid by the bigger.
the bigger, you know, the corporates and stuff. I think sometimes it's a bit of like passing the buck and like passing the blame, right?
as someone who's worked in the civil society and the NGO space, I can definitely tell you that there's a lot of appetite in the government to want to learn and do more.
Pramod Rao (00:45)
hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Sustainably Curious. I'm Pramod, your host. And this is a format that we started recently where we speak to individuals who are in the climate space or otherwise and learn more about some of the sustainable habits that they've inculcated in their lives and the point of view on how can we all become slightly more mindful in the ways we live.
I'm super excited today to have Navdha Malhotra here. And very interestingly, all three of us are Terra Fellows. So Navdha and I were in the same cohort. Dhanashree was in the earlier cohort. this is the first time that we have all three people here, like, you know, being Terra Fellows. So yay, yay, Terra. So welcome, Navdha.
Navdha Malhotra (01:27)
you
Pramod Rao (01:29)
I think that the next 30 odd minutes or so, we'll have a free flowing conversation. ⁓ We'd love to start off with introductions. So Navdha, feel free to introduce yourself. And then Dhanashree So Navdha, go ahead.
Navdha Malhotra (01:40)
sure
Thank you. Thank you for having me and really excited to be here on a Saturday morning. And that's amazing. LFA represent. Go Terra Do as you said. So yeah, my name is Navdha. I actually have been working, I'd say in the climate space since 2013. I work as an independent social impact consultant. So I've been in the social impact space, the development space for the last 15 years or so.
And climate actually happened to me quite accidentally. I used to work on gender before that, and I was really passionate about just gender equity issues. ⁓ But in 2013, I started, I got a job with Greenpeace, and I moved to Bangalore for a couple of years. And that was my first foray into what is called climate campaigning. ⁓ I think I'd like to believe that I was always quite...
considerate of the environment and sustainability in general. I think really entering an organization that believes in fixing things, know, questioning the status quo, questioning what's going on in the world, what corporation or corporates are doing, what the government is doing. I think that was a really like eye-opening experience because I don't think I knew how much is possibly going wrong or what all wrong is being done at so many levels.
And since then I've been working in the climate campaigning space, but now I do it slightly in a more strategic communications focused perspective. Apart from that, I also do some ceramics and I run a digital museum as well. So two years ago, I actually quit my full-time job and that's when I did the LFA module because...
Even though I've been working in climate for so long, I think I needed to a bit of a step back and really understand the science of it, which was my biggest motive for joining the course. And yeah, for the last two and a half, three years now, I've been working as an independent consultant, trying to do different things, but still operating in the climate and sustainability space.
Pramod Rao (03:42)
Awesome. Welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
Dhanashree (03:44)
Yeah, awesome, Navdha. It's such a pleasure to meet you. So my enthusiasm for climate began with how Bangalore is changing in the last so many years. It was a very different city growing up versus now. And the worry and the pain looking at what's happening around has been my pull towards doing something in this space.
And ⁓ I did the Terra LFA to understand more about the breadth of it and the science of what is really going on and what are the solutions and things like
Pramod Rao (04:25)
Yeah. Yeah, similar. think like, you know, ⁓ being a Bangalore kid and, ⁓ have seen it changed quite a bit. ⁓ always wanted to do something, but like, you know, ⁓ some, you know, life happens and then we, you know, we get busy with things. So never really took any action. ⁓ although personally, I think the awareness was always increasing, around how to live more mindfully. ⁓ and, and I think around the time.
Navdha Malhotra (04:25)
Lovely to meet you.
Pramod Rao (04:52)
That's what prompted me to take up LFA when transitioning between career, ⁓ like I was on a career break and that prompted me to understand the space a bit more. ⁓ And I think one of the assignments I'd written about something on this podcast and then after like three, four months of procrastinating, finally started it as a small step towards ⁓ learning by speaking to people and discovering new things.
That's sort of the background of how Sustainably Curious also started. ⁓ But Navdha, I'm great to have you here. ⁓ coincidentally, actually interviewed, I think in the last to last, or it was episode four, someone from Greenpeace. So Priya, she's currently at Greenpeace as well. So a small coincidence over here. ⁓
But yeah, maybe kickstarting, I'd love to touch upon the social impact campaigns that you worked with. I think you've worked on a range of them, whether it's Empowering Women, EV delivery campaign, or even like Delhi Pollution. What have been some lessons from the experience of getting involved in these campaigns or even getting people to take action in these?
Navdha Malhotra (06:05)
Sure, think maybe let's talk about Delhi because I am based in Delhi and I think the pollution conversation is one that really I think breaks my heart because we started that campaign I would say like you know in 2013 is when all of a sudden you started reading these media reports saying that Delhi is overtaken Beijing as the most polluted city in the world.
And before that, we had studied air pollution in school. We knew it was a problem, but it was not something that was talked about in the way that it's talked about now. And I think when Greenpeace and obviously the last organization I worked with called Purpose, you know, they identified this as an entry point to actually tackle climate issues. So interestingly, air pollution is not seen as a climate change issue. It's seen more as a health crisis, but
The causes of air pollution are climate issues. So your emissions from traffic, emissions from industries, those are climate problems. But air pollution in itself is not looked at as a climate problem. ⁓ So I think a lot of even philanthropic funder interest in stuff shifted to, how do we tackle this? And I think I've been working on air pollution since then. ⁓
I've done a bunch of work in Delhi under a campaign called Help Tally Breathe. I've done some work actually in Bangalore as well under a campaign called Bengaluru Moving. And we have done some work in Mumbai. But I think in Delhi, I would say the biggest lesson that I have realized now is that there is, we have not been able to shift the needle. I think that
One of the earlier goals of the work that we did was establishing that evolution is a problem, making evolution an everyday conversation topic at dinner tables. I think you've been successful in doing that. Everyone recognizes that it's something that we're dealing with. But I think that we're also caught up in just daily lives and having to make it that it's not really prompted any, I would say, a shift.
in individual behaviour or change and I know that sounds slightly pessimistic but that is a bit where I feel I am right now. I think there's a lot of apathy in general and I mean I can say that a lot of policy shifts have come about. know, Delhi has some fantastic policies on paper to tackle the problem. The challenge is the implementation and the challenge is that evolution remains a rich person's problem.
And that's the way it's being framed currently, right? Like we have the luxury of doing something about it. We are the ones also causing it because of our vehicles and stuff. We are not the ones who wear the brunt of it. And unfortunately, while groups are doing, there are organizations doing fantastic work at engaging with the most vulnerable sector, you know, segment, is your street hawkers, your street vendors, your domestic health, your security guards who don't have an option, who have to be out on the road.
even when the pollution is really bad. I think one learning and this is something I'm still grappling with is that we have not been able to identify what levers of change are required to actually make the shift happen because they're not the ones who causing it. They are the ones impacted by it, right? So what can you do there? I can talk about, I have a few examples of, you know, policy shifts and even work that we have done, say with construction workers in Delhi. So I can talk about that a bit later.
But I think currently I'm a bit pessimistic because I think while all of the surface level, top level stuff has happened, we still see solutions like smoke towers being introduced. You know, we still see cities talking about artificial rain, which are not actual solutions to the problem. ⁓ Smoke towers do not work, artificial rain is not the solution. There are other things that need to happen. We need better public transport so that people stop feeling the need to drive their cars.
We need the industries around cities to be shut down. We need to reduce our reliance on coal and stuff. But I think there's a lot still ⁓ that's needed. And I, again, I'm very aware how pessimistic I can sound about this.
Pramod Rao (10:18)
No, but that's the reality. So, you know, I think we should say it as it is, but I like how we framed it. I think, you know, it is a rich person's problem. ⁓ And we, ⁓ that someone else is bearing the brunt of it, right? Like, and would love to know, like, what are some thoughts on how to solve this? you know, I think, like you said, the good thing is there are dinner table conversations happening, but there is intention.
But then, how do you get to the next step of action?
Navdha Malhotra (10:50)
Yeah, absolutely. I think this was the core focus of so Help Delhi Breathe is a campaign that's really close to my heart. I led it for a number of years and it's one of those where I feel that we've tried a lot of tactics. You know, we started off by engaging with mothers, ⁓ know, mothers who live in urban cities because we believe that the health angle, the health narrative with mums who care about their kids' health would work really well. So we actually incubated and mobilized groups of
Mums who have then become champions of evolution, have started going out to the government, speaking to political leaders, speaking to decision makers. And then the focus shifted to, I'd say, ⁓ youth. A lot of work with university students and school students on it because kids are often the ones who go home and talk to their parents about things they learn at school. So that was another way of getting... It breaks my heart that PM 2.5, particulate matter 2.5 is something that...
every citizen now recognizes in Delhi like you have little kids who know that the PM 2.5 today is bad. In one way the campaign has been successful in making that happen but I'm like that's not something that a child should be thinking about right that shouldn't be a kid's reality but it is. I think as so I'll answer this in two ways right one is obviously things that you can do at an individual level right ⁓ definitely
you know, thinking about the number of vehicles your family owns, right? I think really just being more conscious. I really don't want to be a campaigner and I try very hard to not be one where I'm people to not do something because I think that's you lose your audience. That way you can't go into something by saying, don't do this. But I think just being a bit more conscious about everyday decisions that we are making. So like there's a family of four really need two or three vehicles. And that's something that we see in a lot of, know.
urban middle class, upper middle class families, whenever possible use public transport. And I think as the other perspective is as citizens of a country and as citizens of the city, how much are we actually like what's the role that we are playing in the governance of the city? And by that I mean
Are we asking these tough questions? Are we aware of who our local leaders are? Are we aware of what our housing associations or our resident welfare associations need to do to tackle evolution? For example, ⁓ Delhi has said that I think in the next couple of days, there's going to be artificial rain that happens. Environmentalists have come out saying, why are we doing this in the monsoon when the rains will already kick in? What data are you going to collect that way?
feel like the people who have the power to actually make the change happen and ask some of these questions are not out there like having this conversation. We're just like, this is going to happen. Let's accept it. So I think being a little bit more conscious about some of these things, paying attention to some of the norms and the rules that are being laid out. And I think the flip side of it is that even the government, even the decision makers in power, they don't make these processes.
Pramod Rao (13:36)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (13:55)
a participatory, right? They'll open up consultations every time a bill is announced or a bill is even being drafted, it's open for public consultations. But how many of us have actually gone for them? And I know it's a slightly tough ask, but I genuinely believe that until we are playing that role, like we really have to think what's the role we are playing in the governance of our cities. And, know, both of you mentioned that for you, it started with the love for Bangalore, right? Like you have seen the changing weather patterns. I mean,
Delhi is still known for having cold seasons but unfortunately the reality is that now during the summer you can't step out because it's too hot. The monsoons means that in a little bit of rain the traffic problems, the roads get completely logged, There's drainage problems everywhere. The two-three good months that we had for sitting on our terrace in the winter, you know, was in Delhi there's this term, Barsati which is the...
flats that are connected to the terrace. So there's a whole thing of having Barsati parties in the winter because that's the only time we could be outside. But even that's being taken away from us. We can't be outside in the winter anymore, right? So it's something that we're dealing with and I think like I feel more and more strongly about it and that's why I think I try to encourage people and I'm like only you can go out and ask these questions. Yeah.
Dhanashree (15:16)
it makes me very sad actually the way things have changed ⁓ and how you're describing Delhi. Bangalore, we've largely had similar weather through the year, right? It's always pleasant. It's slightly hot, it's slightly cold. But now we're seeing how different the weathers are. Like summers are getting really warm where we are getting ACs where ACs never...
Navdha Malhotra (15:29)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dhanashree (15:42)
like Bangalore does need AC for the weather that we have, but now we are all getting ACs. Winters are getting so cold, like we have multiple layers and Bangalore has been quite pleasant throughout. So I can imagine coming from a place which has again, like you're saying, four weathers and now you're seeing it's difficult to enjoy the weathers. It's quite, it is quite sad. And I understand like pessimism is the way that we're looking at things, but
Navdha Malhotra (15:47)
Yeah.
Dhanashree (16:09)
The reality is quite bleak. It's very sad.
Pramod Rao (16:11)
Yeah, so ⁓ I think the air quality is an issue ⁓ everywhere. Like, know, even in Bangalore, I would say like it's getting worse. there are but but yeah, like, like rightly pointed that is that individual level action, but also, I think there needs to be policy level changes or like, you know, different stakeholders need to come together and
You know, think Bangalore also suffers from like infrastructure problem, which is never ending. As we speak, actually today, I think there's a protest going on to open ⁓ the yellow Metro line, which was supposed to open, I think in 2022. And yeah, people are still waiting for it. So I think there are a lot of issues around that because like traffic congestion only keeps increasing as these cities expand. and, know, we are not the ones who suffer, I think like, but ⁓ we, we are.
letting others suffer like, you with not solving for this problem. Right. ⁓ That said, they are like, you know, would love to know, think, from an individual perspective, like, you know, your yourself. Ever since you've I think Arunatine, one of the episodes, she was in episode five, she mentioned that once you know it, you can't unknow it, like, you know, once you became aware of these issues, want to take action. So
Navdha Malhotra (17:13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Pramod Rao (17:37)
How have you, like, know, what's your philosophy to life or like living in general? What have been some things that you've incorporated?
Navdha Malhotra (17:44)
Sure, so I think it sounds.
It sounds so strange to me because I I gen my entire livelihood depends on individuals waking up wanting to make a difference, right? Like I operate from that thing that people want to change. People want to be better. But at the same time, I feel that putting the pressure on individuals to take steps is so unfair because the penalty needs to be paid by the bigger.
the bigger, you know, the corporates and stuff. I think sometimes it's a bit of like passing the buck and like passing the blame, right? But having said that, do think like, I mean, I completely feel that there are everyday practices that we all should be incorporating. can talk a bit about the, you know, stuff that I've been doing, but it does feel, I don't know, because I think as a campaigner, I'm always thinking that how is this laddering up to the larger, the longer term impact, right? But then I also know that if thousands of us do it.
Pramod Rao (18:35)
Hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (18:38)
it will make a difference, right? So I think one of the things that I did a couple of years ago is that I don't eat meat anymore. I come from a fully carnivorous family. I grew up eating a lot of meat. A couple of years ago, I decided, and yes, while it is for ethical reasons, a lot of it is to actually do with the livestock industry. And it is for, you know, for me, it's very much about the climate.
So I always tell people like you know people always ask like do you not do it because you love animals I'm like yeah that's one part of it but I genuinely I'm doing it for environmental reasons and I know that in a country like India like red meat you know all of that is still lower so the western the developed ⁓ say developed but the western countries who consume more of red meat they are like obviously the emissions over there are a lot higher but that's one of those things you know that you said that once you know it I can't unknow
Pramod Rao (19:32)
Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (19:33)
So
that and I think that I am a wannabe vegan is something that I say I would love I keep trying I have incorporated smaller things because again I the dairy industry is you know completely and it's not okay it should be banned we're not at all like it's a horrible horrible industry and in fact sometimes I have conversations with folks who are like actually eating meat is better than consuming dairy products because the
Pramod Rao (20:01)
Hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (20:01)
dairy industry is far worse than the meat industry. Both perspectives are valid but I think that's one of things that I've done. I think the other one is that I have tried to quit e-commerce portal so I've been trying for the last couple of months to remove my blanket, my zip to all of those services because honestly I was
I just think the sheer convenience of it has made us so lazy. ⁓ One, we're not stepping out to the neighbourhood shops and buying the stuff anymore. But I think it's also just like, you're not planning anymore for your food, right? Because it's just available. And this is one of the campaigns that I think I may have brought up in the LFA module as well. it's one that's really, really close to my heart. So I did a bunch of work on.
Pramod Rao (20:42)
Yeah.
Dhanashree (20:43)
Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (20:55)
electric vehicles but it was actually called EV my delivery and the idea was that we engage with the young urban Indians in Delhi, Bangalore and Bombay and again no shaming you're not kind of telling people that they don't use these services use them but maybe when you're ordering maybe when you're placing an order if you're in the office if you're at home do a joint order you know so that you're not getting 10 coffees delivered one after the other but it's a joint order or if you live in a
be like a lot of Indian families of multi households, do one bulk order because one thing that we're not realizing is that one, ⁓ there is a lot of data available actually on the emissions caused by the two wheelers that are used for these deliveries. I know a lot of them are transitioned to EVs, but even that electric vehicle, it's still coming from somewhere. The source is still coming from somewhere. And I think the other thing was the wastage.
Like every time you order something, it's coming in, you know, you have the thermocol packaging, you have ⁓ bubble wrap, and you have so many bags. open anyone's kitchen these days, there are like 20,000 blanket bags ⁓ there, right? So I think that's one of the things. It's very hard. I will say that I still have one app installed. ⁓ And unfortunately, or fortunately, they have also introduced a 15-minute service.
Pramod Rao (22:02)
Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (22:17)
Otherwise they used to be like a regular, you place a bulk order and things used to get delivered once or twice a week. They've also introduced a 15 minute one and I have started taking advantage of it, but I've removed all the others because at least I'm like, no, you know, I don't need to live in a world where if I need a bag of chips right now, I need it right now. It's fine. It's okay. Yeah. So I think those are two things. Apart from that, I mean always carrying. ⁓
Pramod Rao (22:26)
Hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (22:44)
my bottle when I go I think that's just the simplest thing that we can do right that's such a simple ask and it sounds ridiculous to claim as one of the shifts I've made but as I'm saying it I'm like even in my friend circle if eight of us started carrying a bottle that's plastic bottles not bought at different places right and that's why I think like everything that we do does ladder up to a larger impact so I think yeah carrying my bottle ⁓
everywhere. The other one is also I think waste is something that I have a lot of opinions on and I've tried really hard to do weight segregation at home and composting. Composting is still doable but I realized that even though I was segregating my waste it was not getting picked up in that manner. It was all being taken by the same people and ⁓
Pramod Rao (23:35)
for it.
Navdha Malhotra (23:38)
that I'm still like navigating and trying to work with NGOs in Delhi to see how people can do it because I don't think we have I know Bangalore and Bombay the housing associations are a lot better maybe in Gurgaon the condos and stuff are not better at it but regular households the charge just gets picked up in the same place so even if you segregate it it's all going to the same landfill ⁓ but yeah those are a few of the things
Pramod Rao (24:01)
call.
Dhanashree (24:05)
Yeah. So we have, of course, stopped or reduced getting online, Blink-It, et cetera. But whenever we do, we keep the bags aside. And when they come, the delivery guys come, we give it back to them. So that's quite, ⁓ yeah, they do. Some people don't. They're like, what do do with this? But most of them do accept. They take it back and hoping they're reused. Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (24:20)
⁓ do they accept them?
to be using interest.
I'll start doing. I've not. that's a see now that's great, right? Because you're completing the loop and completing the circle. That's something that maybe I can do as well. Yeah.
Dhanashree (24:42)
Yeah. Yeah, waste segregation, I feel, is a lot better in Bangalore from what you've been explaining. ⁓ Even at the local, like the individual houses, the BBMP folks insist on segregating waste at the source. ⁓ And I think Pramod will be able to tell better about maybe like what's going on at the BBMP level, at the governance level.
Navdha Malhotra (24:58)
Yeah.
Dhanashree (25:11)
But they're at least insisting that the waste should be segregated at source, be it whatever source, the smallest unit. And they're trying to do that. So what happened was, think a few years back when they started implementing this, they started demanding a small fee for the ⁓ waste pickers to pick it and go.
Navdha Malhotra (25:19)
Yeah.
Dhanashree (25:37)
But at the individual house level, many people don't want to pay. They're like, we've never paid so far, so why do we have to pay now? And then they're like, okay, we'll just dispose it our way. We don't want you to come and pick it for us. So that is something that is happening that I'm aware of. ⁓ So yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (25:56)
That's so interesting because recently it started in my neighborhood as well where they've had one person who's been the waste picker for ages and ages. Like he's the one that he goes to all the households. And I think the MCD kind of put out a ruling saying that now the MCD will come to your house and this is the amount you have to pay. Now people are already paying this guy, right? So they were like, one, why should we pay extra? Two,
why should we let go of this guy? He's been in our lives for so long, like he's been working in our house, it's about 10-15 years. And I think that's where the policies might be great, like I'm like great, fantastic, maybe the MCD coming to my house will actually mean waste segregation happening. But until I don't have that data, I'm not explained, I'm not told what that 300 rupees of payment is going to get me.
Pramod Rao (26:25)
Yeah.
Dhanashree (26:32)
Yeah.
Pramod Rao (26:36)
and
Navdha Malhotra (26:46)
you're going to lose people, right? Like if the government disseminated that information, amplified it properly, it would get so much easier.
Dhanashree (26:46)
Luke.
Yeah.
here.
Pramod Rao (26:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, so recently I came across through a Terra WhatsApp only. There's an initiative here called Sustainable Sundays. So I started volunteering there. And we basically meet at Cubbon Park every Sunday and do a, it's called a blogging drive. But basically you just do a walk around it and then collect the driveways around, right?
Navdha Malhotra (26:58)
you
Pramod Rao (27:17)
Part of that, like we were now thinking of scaling it up. So I went and met a few BBMP officials. And one thing I realized, prior to this, my perception of BBMP was very, very different. I'd be like, BBMP is not doing their job and just Bangalore ⁓ is going to the dumps and so on. after... ⁓
Speaking to them, also, and seeing them also take action, you know, on the streets and like carbon park is very clean in general, but still like people still litter. It just seems to like, you know, take birth. The moment you clean like 15 minutes later, there's like, you know, same amount of litter there. Right. So we can't always blame, I think the organizations. So they are also very stretched. I feel so, but I think when I spoke to like a couple of officials, one of the things that
they want to do is also spread awareness, right? So BBMP actually has started, I think June 7th onwards ⁓ in Bangalore, intensive drives every Saturday and they want citizens to get involved, right? ⁓ But like you mentioned, I think some of these things ⁓ maybe can be marketed more or like, you know, can be talked about in a better way rather than citizens always feeling that, hey, you they are at fault.
And while they're actually resource crunched and they're trying to do maybe as they can improve, obviously, I'm sure there are parts of which, which they've neglected or like, you know, could have been doing better. But I think just stepping out from my house and getting involved a bit has spread my awareness of, okay, like, you know, maybe let's also understand their side and try and see where we can help. Right. So.
I think that that probably a more collaborative way to like solve is the only way I feel like, know, otherwise at an individual level, we can only complain or like, you know, tweet or like, you know, things like that. But I think when you really go out there, I think it's realizing, where, do you need help? Let me like, you know, we are willing to help. Let's, let's see, let's come together. Right. So that's sort of the approach.
Navdha Malhotra (29:10)
So.
I'm
so glad you said this because this is exactly what I mean. As citizens, are we even engaging with the governance process? I know that there are people living in Delhi we don't know. I think Bangalore has warned, if I'm not wrong. Maybe MP operates with words.
Pramod Rao (29:35)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Yeah, they are words. Yeah, correct. Yes.
Navdha Malhotra (29:44)
Delhi is a bit different because I mean because it's New Delhi we have different corporations responsible for different things. So you have the municipal corporation, have the South Delhi corporation and then you have the New Delhi corporation which are three different bodies and I have learned recently that where I live it's a service lane of a main road. So one corporation is responsible for the main road, one corporation is responsible for the service lane I live on even though
Pramod Rao (30:11)
So,
let's light next.
Navdha Malhotra (30:12)
It's like next door, Like one
is here, one is here. So some tree felling incident was happening and we were talking to the authorities and that's where I realized that actually all three of them hold different mandates and they have different powers because they were like, we appreciate you calling in Telangap but this is not my mandate. I can't do anything about it. And they are also stuck, right? They want to do something but they can't. And I think that's what I mean that
Pramod Rao (30:30)
Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (30:35)
We need to be more engaged with it. We need to be having these conversations because one, as you said, that's the only way we learn the challenges that they have. And two, as someone who's worked in the civil society and the NGO space, I can definitely tell you that there's a lot of appetite in the government to want to learn and do more. This thing of collaboration that you mentioned, right? They are always looking for ideas. They're always looking to get associated with campaigns. And I think they also realize that their marketing game
needs to be up a lot. A lot of the engagement, the collaboration that I have done have been about amplifying the work that the government is doing. yeah, I think again, like in the population that we have, it needs to be a lot more. But I'm so glad to hear you ⁓ say that you went out and you spoke to BBMP ⁓ officials and your plogging thing is very inspiring. Like kudos to you both on a Sunday.
Pramod Rao (31:20)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, and so I'm actually interviewing the founder next week to learn more about how she's thinking of scaling this. But yeah, discovered Anjali had posted, or a friend had posted on Terra, and that's how I came about there. I'm going to meet the BBMP, hopefully, meet the BBMP COO on Tuesday, if I can. And I'm going to their office, meeting some other official.
trying to see if we can do something, ban Bangalore as well. ⁓ With a lot of these, are doing it, let's say, the Cubbon Park, and in July, we adding in few more locations. ⁓ We take the permission from BBMP, and we coordinate with them ⁓ so that people who are going for this are also seeing that BBMP comes and collects the waste and ⁓ doing it in collaboration rather than saying that, we'll only solve all the problems, which is
I don't think going to happen. you know, if we take on saying we'll solve all the problems, that's not even a right approach.
Dhanashree (32:24)
lot of these actions have to be in collaboration with governments. ⁓ there is a lot that government is doing to solve problems, but the citizens are sort of not taking up their part of the duty and sort of adding to the issues, right? So totally agree with that.
Pramod Rao (32:43)
⁓ Yeah, so Navdha, I think you founded Museum of Material Memory, if I got it correct. Yeah, so I found that to be very fascinating. So tell a bit about what it is and how did the idea come up.
Navdha Malhotra (32:51)
Yeah.
complete pivot from sustainability in a different way.
Pramod Rao (32:59)
I know. But I think there is also,
there is also, you know, something about memory of old items and like, know, definitely.
Navdha Malhotra (33:09)
I was just going to come to that. In fact, one of the things that I was thinking before we started the conversation was that actually the culture of recycling is so inherent in Indian society. It's just something we've been doing for centuries. Recycling, thrifting, giving away old clothes, giving away old utensils.
And I think sometimes also we try to, this is just one last point I'll make, you know, on the sustainability side of things. And it's really, I'll come to the museum through that. we have started, we try to have to aid to Western countries sometimes. And that's where we also lose the plot a little bit, right? Because this is, we have had this in our culture. Kabaddiwala's are a thing that exists. Every weekend they come to our house and get paid for kabaddi. What better system exists than that? Right? And I think Indians generally,
Pramod Rao (33:34)
So, yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (33:59)
because of our religions and the spiritual side of things we are giving and we are a giving society we like to give back people want to help each other so I think those things also need to be celebrated but sometimes we get too caught up in wanting to do what the western countries have done and we try to shift these systems and that doesn't need to be done we need to come up with really hyper local solutions that work for this society ⁓ and through that
I think yes, the museum is about old objects. So, you know, that is an element of people saving and storing personal aloes. But so it's a project that actually I'd run with one of my closest friends from school. And we co-founded it together in 2017. The idea for it was actually
born from her personal work. So she's an author, her name is Anchal and she writes, she is an oral historian but she specifically works on the partition of India. And she was writing, she was actually doing her masters pieces on objects that people carried with them across the border during the partition. And while she was doing that
the idea came that she could turn this into a book. And then when she was writing the book, when she was compiling the book, she and I were having a conversation one day, you know, where she was like, I have so many people writing to me saying, can you come and visit us? And can you document our family's history? I wish that was a way that people could do it themselves. And I work in strategic communications, but specifically I work with digital tech and innovation. So a lot of my work is actually how to use digital tools.
Pramod Rao (35:30)
Hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (35:39)
all of social media, how to use those to mobilize and engage people. So I think somewhere both of those things kind of collided, came together and I was like, we should start a digital platform where people just write on their own. So it's a crowdsourced museum. And initially when we started it was
Pramod Rao (35:54)
Nice.
Navdha Malhotra (35:59)
we went to our own networks, our own families. We are both North Indian Punjabi families affected by the partition. My grandparents were born across the border, so were hers. But the idea is to use objects as a nucleus to trace family histories. And the more mundane the objects, the better. So very often, we have things lying around in our house that carry
Pramod Rao (36:16)
Hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (36:23)
They carry a weight, they carry an entire person's life in it and that's not being documented. So I'll give an example. ⁓ I've written a couple of stories to the archive about my paternal grandfather. ⁓ One of them being when he passed away, we found this great briefcase in his cupboard and in that he used to store everything. And in that I realized that he was actually, he was a freedom fighter.
He'd actually spent some time in the prison. ⁓ He had received documentation from the government for the same. ⁓ He used to entries at midnight of every year, like diary entries, not in a journal but on loose sheets of paper. And those entries, surprisingly, are about his own life and the family life but also about the country because I think he was always into politics and he was obviously in that era when so much, like he saw the birth.
of a new independent India, right? So he's actually did an entry in like when Nehru's died, there's an entry about Nehru, you know, in the year that, ⁓ this is what India has lost with this leader dying. So I think like using those objects, so there's letters, there's documents, there's certificates, there's medals. It can be anything and everything where we're always looking for more everyday items. So if people have, we once wrote a story about,
It's a South Asian archive, so it's not just India. We have stories from the South Asian countries. We have a story of a brass tumbler that someone actually took from India to Sri Lanka. So the great granddaughter has written about her great-grandmom using that brass tumbler as a way of talking about why did she migrate from India to Sri Lanka and what was that experience like. So yeah, that's how the idea kind of came about from there.
I'm very excited to share that since I took this step of transitioning to consulting life, one of the reasons was actually to scale up the museum. So, Upunkill right now, was running as a fashion project. It was just something, both of us have day jobs, we do it on the side. But now we have registered it. It's a company and the idea is to kind of go out and get funds so that we can actually scale it up and do more.
Dhanashree (38:39)
Amazing.
Navdha Malhotra (38:39)
Thank you. If you guys have stuff, please write about it. We are always on the lookout for stories that I don't have as many as I'd like from Karnataka actually.
Pramod Rao (38:48)
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah. So, ⁓ that reminds me, actually my grandfather's, ⁓ camera, I think, I think my, it's still there in my parents place, which I enjoyed as a kid. So I'll, I'll probably dig that out and, ⁓ yeah, yeah. And, on my mother's side, it's not working now, but yeah, like it's a, you know, one of those old cameras, which, ⁓
Navdha Malhotra (39:03)
Definitely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. See, that's the thing.
Pramod Rao (39:12)
Yeah, it was very fascinating to just see that. my father's dad, like my grandfather, so he was a ⁓ scientist and a photographer. So yeah, but I need to discover more about his life around that.
Navdha Malhotra (39:26)
That's the thing. very often we realise that people struggle to talk about their lives just like that. Like especially I think Indians, don't write things. think Bengalis are great at writing things but a lot of it is oral history. We'll pass on story to story. So the idea is actually exactly what you said that how do we use the object to have the younger generation going out and surfacing that life. You know? You already mentioned that he was a scientist like...
Pramod Rao (39:36)
Yeah. ⁓
Navdha Malhotra (39:53)
where, how, what was he working on, right? And that through that because I think lives are common everyday people and just one thing I wanted to mention it both of us are really my co-founder and I were very passionate about arts in general but I think another goal was that museums and galleries very often the story of people is told by someone else, right? So the idea here was that how do you empower people to tell their own story?
Pramod Rao (39:55)
Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (40:19)
And you when you go to a museum you see something it's lying in this glass thing, it's encased in something. You can't engage with it, there's no interaction. So that was the other reason of keeping it digital because these are very personal objects. We don't want to take those objects away from people but we want to create an experience where you really feel like if there's a camera how would it feel to touch it without touching it. We kind of wanted to break some of these boundaries and you know make memories more accessible in a way.
Pramod Rao (40:47)
Yeah, wonderful.
Navdha Malhotra (40:48)
But definitely
I'll follow up with you. I'm definitely going to write you an email from the mainstream about the camera.
Pramod Rao (40:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's amazing. think ⁓ we will, Dhanashree has like the habit of keeping things for like, you long time. And I'm sure we'll have a lot of stories as well to continue.
Dhanashree (41:06)
Yeah, I'll
have to look up some of them. I think I'm currently able to recall one of the harmoniums that's there at home and it's been there for a very long time. ⁓ I don't know how it has come to our house. So I'll be curious to know.
Navdha Malhotra (41:14)
allowed.
I'd love to help you figure out why. Wow,
this is amazing guys. I got a musical object and a camera. That's amazing. Yeah.
Pramod Rao (41:29)
I'll check
with the previous guest as well. Like, you she mentioned that in her in-laws place, they never throw any waste at all. Like, and they preserve things, like even shirts and toys from like her, their grandfather's generation as well. So I'll check with her if she wants to write a story as well for this. Yeah. Awesome. ⁓ Yeah. So the other thing that I want to check was I did read that you're into clay and
Navdha Malhotra (41:44)
⁓ wow.
would appreciate that. Thank you.
Pramod Rao (41:56)
pottery work as well. and, you know, being in climate space, like we started off, there's a lot of pessimism around it. So, you know, is like the work with clay and pottery more that gives you calm and like, how do you cope with all the pessimism that's there in climate? Like, you know, what keeps you going without feeling like, you know, the world is ending.
Navdha Malhotra (42:21)
you
I to say that it's conversations like this that keep me going and I'm not just saying it. I think like, you know, as I said, every morning I do have this general feeling that nothing is going to change. But then I'll have one conversation with someone, you know, you meet like one young child who cares about something or you know, the cutest is actually every morning I go to the park with my dog and my mom comes along with us.
Pramod Rao (42:27)
Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (42:46)
It's a little routine that we have where he is obsessed with going for the walk with her, she is obsessed with him, so it can become a whole thing. And my mum will take pictures of every broken thing in the park. You know, whether there is illegal tree felling happening because people often cut, trees will fall during storms and all, you can't take the wood out. But a lot of people obviously do because they need the wood for cooking and stuff, right?
She would take pictures of like broken benches and she, I don't know how, has figured out all the numbers to send them to. She has the helpline, she knows the MLA in the neighbourhood and she'll just be like, this bench is broken, it needs to be fixed. And I think like, when I see that, it's renewed optimism, right? Because you see someone at that age still caring, still doing her bit and she'll keep telling me, you know, for me, the work is work. I'm, my mom's also in the development sector, she's been a social worker her entire life.
But think when you see individuals act like actions like that, it really gives me hope that okay yeah there is something and they respond to her and they tell her that thank you madam bench fix ho gaya or thank you madam we have repaired the gate right but because it's what you were saying earlier Dhanushree that they are also looking for data it's not just collaboration they also need to know why things are broken because they can't go and check everywhere.
Dhanashree (43:58)
Yeah.
Correct.
Navdha Malhotra (44:03)
That's the role that we can play but I think coming back, I did want to say that, that I think like individual actions are the things that give me renewed optimism and ⁓ Play, yeah, play is one of those, it's been a journey. I've been doing it for a really long time. It's been a very on-off journey. I keep taking breaks and I keep, it's a, I would say play is a medium I keep coming back to. Every time I feel that my creativity has
Pramod Rao (44:09)
Hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (44:31)
hit the level like the surface and when I feel like that then that's when I go back to play so yes definitely clay is an extremely therapeutic medium but I tell everyone actually more than clay it's just doing something with your hands you know because we are only on our phones and our laptops just sitting and working with your hands is a whole different joy ⁓
Yeah, but every time I feel like my creativity is plateaued, even in my campaigning, even in the work that I do is when I'm like, ⁓ need to spend some time with clay and then some idea will emerge. And yeah, I think it's just one of those, it's a very special relationship. I've been doing it since 2005, but with a lot of breaks for education, career, life in general. ⁓ With Keith coming back to it, it's a very
I recommend it to everyone. always tell people that even if you can just buy a little bit of clay, keep it just doing. It's the clay is actually the closest we can get to the ground. You know, to the source of life is something that I really believe in because it's the most natural, it's mitty. is like the most natural form of, ⁓ most accessible form of nature that we have.
Pramod Rao (45:42)
Mm.
Navdha Malhotra (45:49)
And think just some like just kind of even just sitting and playing with it is very, very therapeutic. I've never thought about it in the way you have said it or like, ⁓ it's clearly giving me optimism. I'm going to pay attention to that now.
Pramod Rao (45:55)
So do you have
a setup at home or for making?
Navdha Malhotra (46:05)
I
have a studio that I go to, I work there for my glazing and my firing but I have a wheel at home. Yeah, so I do make things at home. Yeah.
Pramod Rao (46:10)
Okay, nice.
And I
see a picture of the dog in the background. as a, we are all pet parents. So as pet parents, like ⁓ what, how has it made you more conscious in like, what changes or habits in your day to day life?
Navdha Malhotra (46:18)
Yes.
wow, I was a totally lazy person before I got it. tell anyone, anyone ever tells me I need a routine, like get a dog. A dog just forces you to get a routine whether you want it or not. ⁓ I think yeah, just waking up early, going to bed early is the biggest thing because even if I am not awake, I will be woken up, you know, at 6 am with him staring at me going, hi, it's time for a walk now. And yeah, I think how.
Pramod Rao (46:36)
Ha
Yeah.
Navdha Malhotra (46:57)
⁓ that's such a personal, sweet... I've had animals my entire life. He's my first, my own dog, not a family dog, like he's mine. Yeah, I think just routine, I'm a better person. I feel like I'm brighter, ⁓ more physical movement because of him, more steps in the day because of him, more curiosity, I think, as well, because you see them observing things and...
Pramod Rao (47:04)
Mm-hmm.
Navdha Malhotra (47:24)
It's just like wow, they are so like the I've seen your dogs on the screen on the calls and all right but they just they find this they find so much joy in the everyday routine you like the most same everyday food, everyday toys but they're still curious about it. Every evening you go pick up one toy and I think that's one of the things I'm really like trying to invite from him that you have joy and beauty around you.
Pramod Rao (47:30)
you
Yeah.
Dhanashree (47:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Pramod Rao (47:52)
Yeah, that's the story. ⁓
Dhanashree (47:55)
Yeah, so
The way they give us joy and they help us learn ⁓ the extraordinary things or extraordinary moments in the ordinary things. I think that's been a super thing.
Yeah, the routine also, you know. So I'm doing this program called transactional analysis. is a program on psychology and analysis of communication. So one of the concepts in that is time structuring. So when you said they help us put the routine and help us brighten up our day because of their routine, right? And like they come wake us up in the mornings. If we are lazy, they just get us.
help us get out of the bed and let's just get out for a walk. All of that is great for the planet, our mental health and the planet as well. If all of us have a basic routine which we are really enjoying, I don't think we will indulge in harming the planet in that sense.
Navdha Malhotra (48:40)
to them.
I want to ask this one time structure.
Dhanashree (48:59)
Time structuring, it's a part of ⁓ the bigger psychological body called transactional analysis. Time structuring is a part of it. ⁓ Bern was the guy who sort of formulated TA, transactional analysis. He says, we are all hungry for stimulation, ⁓ stimulation basically, and ⁓ stimulus hunger and time structuring. If we have a good
Navdha Malhotra (49:00)
Okay.
Dhanashree (49:26)
basic structure of our time, we are that much more healthy mentally and emotionally. And he says time structuring also helps us like it helps us survive. If it is not there, we all we almost shrivel and die. So ⁓ yeah, the dogs definitely help us, you know, get us out of the bed.
Navdha Malhotra (49:45)
Wow, I'm gonna read up on this. This sounds fascinating. Yeah.
Sorry, you were saying the most.
Pramod Rao (49:51)
I know, I was saying that, you know, they've also taught us minimalism. know, ⁓ earlier, I think we'd have so much, ⁓ frivolous stuff. Although I really liked some of the toys, which I had like, you know, star wars and all those things. But, ⁓ I think one, one fine day, they just like wiped out all of them. then, yeah, so they're very clear in like, you know, ⁓ you don't need all of this fancy stuff. You know, we can just enjoy with what we have.
Navdha Malhotra (50:09)
You don't need them. You know? Yeah.
I
just need a surface to sleep on. That's all. ⁓
Pramod Rao (50:22)
Correct. Yeah.
Dhanashree (50:23)
Yeah, absolutely.
Pramod Rao (50:25)
But this has been wonderful, Navdha. Really enjoyed the free-flowing conversation. ⁓ But thanks so much. yeah, like, know, we'll circle back on the stories from my side for the memories. ⁓
Navdha Malhotra (50:31)
Bam!
Yes, please. And
thank you. This has been one just so interesting. I feel like I've come to Bangalore and had a coffee with you guys. I will definitely do that when I'm visiting the city next. But this has been great. ⁓ Always lovely to meet like-minded and have these conversations with folks. So thank you for having me. It's been very enjoyable. Thank you. Speak soon. Thanks.
Pramod Rao (50:46)
Yeah.
Dhanashree (50:49)
Yes.
Pramod Rao (50:50)
at least.
Dhanashree (51:00)
Thank you. Thank you for coming. It's been great.
Pramod Rao (51:02)
Thanks so much. you.