Ep 30: Michael Prince On Community, Chaos, And Raising Three Kids

A chance seat on a flight from Denver turned into a decades-long friendship, and a crash course in fatherhood. This week I sit down with my longtime friend Michael Prince to talk about the early terror of parenting a firstborn, the night his son started choking on steak at the dinner table, and why staying calm matters more than having the right answer. We get into raising a daughter after two sons, building a family culture around community and hospitality, teaching teenagers responsibility instead of just rules, and the regrets that come with parenting on the job. Michael's honesty about what he'd do differently makes this one worth sharing with any dad figuring it out as he goes.

If you enjoyed The Dad Manual, leave us a rating on your podcast app! If you loved it, share this episode with a Dad! Send your questions to [e-mail]. Connect with Tony Cooper: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thetonycooper/

Key Takeaways:

• Staying calm in a crisis matters more than having the perfect response; overreacting fuels the fire.
• Parenting a firstborn often means learning through trial and error with no real playbook.
• Building community with other parents can be one of the most valuable supports of early fatherhood.
• Raising a daughter after sons requires learning new sensitivity and intentional one-on-one time.
• Teaching kids the "why" behind a task matters as much as giving them the easy solution.
• Discipline works best with clear boundaries paired with real communication, not control.
• Parenting doesn't end when kids move out; it just changes shape.
• Growing up with a highly accomplished parent can create a bar that's hard to know you've cleared.
• Family culture, whether it's music, hospitality, or hosting, gets passed down whether you plan it or not.
• Every parent carries regrets; what matters is staying self-aware enough to adjust.

00:00 Cold open
00:42 Meet Michael Prince
01:18 How Tony and Michael met
02:05 The flight that changed everything
03:10 Becoming each other's sanity
04:13 Babymoon gone sideways
04:52 The terror of a firstborn
06:02 Self-conscious in public with kids
07:16 Learning to stay calm
08:54 Burning the first batch
09:21 Kervin's strong will
11:18 The steak-choking story
13:06 Adrenaline and instinct
14:06 Growing up with a high-bar dad
16:21 Living up to his father
17:02 Parenting patterns we repeat
19:51 Deciding to have a third
20:35 Fear of the unknown gender
21:15 What changed with a daughter
22:24 Raising Josie differently
23:08 Daddy-daughter dates
27:37 Building a community, not just friends
30:07 Teenage independence and curfews
32:20 Parenting never really stops
33:49 Teaching kids the hard way
36:41 Setting red lines, not rules
37:24 Teaching responsibility with alcohol
40:05 Advice for hesitant dads
41:17 Finding your way without a manual
43:37 Final wisdom for new dads
44:53 A message to Kervin

Creators and Guests

Host

Tony Cooper

Tony Cooper is the founder of Playing the Game of Business, a business coach, father, and podcast host.

What is The Dad Manual?

The Dad Manual is a fatherhood podcast hosted by Tony Cooper, featuring honest conversations with dads about the real, unfiltered journey of parenthood. This parenting podcast for dads explores everything from the excitement of being a first time dad to navigating the teenage years. As one of the best podcasts for expecting dads and experienced fathers alike, we dive deep into what it actually means to be a modern dad—the struggles, the growth, the mistakes, and the moments that change you forever. Whether you're looking for a new dad podcast or seasoned parenting wisdom, this family podcast delivers the honest guidance you won't find in books.

Tony Cooper 00:00
You realize your child is actually possibly choking. That was pure adrenaline. You guys don't just have friends, you have communities. When we met you guys, you're like, oh, you should come out to our Fourth of July picnic. There's like 50, 60 people there.
Michael Prince 00:13
You send your kids off to college. It's not like parenting stops. I'm still parenting right now. There's always new things to learn.
Tony Cooper 00:29
Hi, I'm Tony Cooper. This is the Dad Manual Podcast. And I'm here today with truly one of my favorite dads. You are Kervin and Dylan and Josie's dad. Will you please introduce yourself?
Michael Prince 00:43
Sure, Tony. I'm Michael Prince and I do my best every day to be a great dad.
Tony Cooper 00:52
And you got some wisdom to share?
Michael Prince 00:54
I have some wisdom to share and some stories and some humor. And you know, you and I go back way back.
Tony Cooper 00:57
We became dads together and we spent most of the early years of our kids' lives, you know, learning how to be a dad. And neither of us knew what the fuck we were doing and, you know, figured it out with each other. Our families are still really close even though you abandoned us and moved back to Texas. We love you. But you know, what I was thinking about was how we met.
And I just think it was such an interesting, like, the situation was we were both, you know, living in San Francisco and didn't know each other and had communities of friends that used to just have so much fun and party. But a lot of those people were single. Very few of them were really in relationships and really none of them had kids. So, you know, Tammy and I were like, I don't know how this is going to work. We didn't have any family around.
Tony Cooper 01:42
And then we were flying back from Denver and it was one of the very rare times I've ever been on a flight from Denver to San Francisco that had like the two, three, four seating. So there's like a middle section and we happen to be in the middle section. Of course, the women sat in the middle and then you and I sat on the edges and we all introduced ourselves. You said like three words. You're like, I have been New Orleans flu.
Michael Prince 02:05
And then like, that was the last. I heard of you.
Tony Cooper 02:07
It was 100% true. But then Susie and Tammy were sitting next to each other, sort of chatting it up. And then Tammy had pulled out a little pamphlet she had gotten from her doctor.
Michael Prince 02:19
Susie looked over and said, are you pregnant? And she said, yeah, you know, I'm only like a month or two in. And Susie's like, me too. And then spent the entire flight from Denver to San Francisco talking about becoming parents. And that we didn't really know anybody and we're like, let's be friends. Like, let's be friends. And then, you know, the rest is history.
Tony Cooper 02:38
But we had so many good times and like we're each other's sanity in some way. Because when you become a parent all of a sudden, that's a lot of new things and a lot of new priorities that you didn't have and you didn't know what you're doing. And I always find it so isolating. But the fact that we could just throw Olivia into the thing and run over to Princess and just hang out and get hammered, and Kervin and Olivia would just be on the floor playing with each other. It was just some of the more fun parts of being a parent, was hanging out with the Princes.
Michael Prince 03:10
So. Well, we feel totally the same way and it was just serendipity that Susie and Tammy were sitting next to one another on a plane. Our first two children were born within three weeks of one another, which is really, really strange. But it was wonderful just going through the same phases at the same time with another parent and another dad, to help really go through it together so we could really share notes and kind of watch them grow up as we got older and more experienced as well. And then crazily enough, we both got pregnant at the same time and then had kids again within three weeks of each other.
Tony Cooper 03:53
Yeah. And so like, Leo and Dylan are pretty much the same age. And so it was just wild. But you know what was funny, was I was thinking about that we had decided that because we'd all been working so hard being parents, that we were just going to go celebrate. We're all going to go get a babysitter. We're just going to go to Mexico and go party our asses off in Cabo.
Michael Prince 04:14
And then the girls got pregnant like in between the time we made the plans and went on the trip. So you and I were both drinking for two on that trip.
Tony Cooper 04:27
Tony, it was a lot of fun back in the day when we had the little ones with us for sure.
Tony Cooper 04:33
Yeah. What do you remember about that time, like 2002 to 2005, 2006, when they were really little and we were figuring it out? What comes to mind when you think back to that?
Michael Prince 04:52
Well, you know, so, I mean, a little bit of terror. I mean, because the firstborn, you know, I found the firstborn to be very difficult because you're dealing with those situations that present themselves to you as a parent for the first time. And you don't really know if the decisions you're making in the moment are the right ones or the wrong ones or will lead to a positive outcome or a negative outcome. And I just remember that being a difficult time as a dad for me in parenting my firstborn. But I also just remember, like you said, those times where they found someone they could play with that became one of their first childhood friends. And then finding other parents like the Coopers to spend time with, I found that incredibly valuable and really, really fun. Those are really great memories of sitting on the couch or cooking up a dinner and the kids are on the carpet crawling around and playing with toys, and the women are smiling and you and I are having a ball and sharing a beer. Those were really great moments, and I'll cherish them forever.
Tony Cooper 06:02
Yeah. And it's like we don't really know each other as not parents. Right?
Michael Prince 06:09
Right. That's true.
Tony Cooper 06:11
You know what I was thinking about? I remember I was always so self-conscious about bringing Olivia out in public. She was a pretty loud kid. We used to say she was the kid who ate the microphone. Everything she said was super loud. So if we were out, she could make quite a disturbance. And I remember on Mother's Day, their first Mother's Day, we were at, I think it was the Hilton in San Francisco. That buffet on the top.
Michael Prince 06:36
Buffet. Yeah. That was great, to celebrate Mother's Day.
Tony Cooper 06:41
Yeah, that was. And we had a booth in the back and the kids were really. And we just took over and we're like, I fucking don't care. We're here for Mother's Day. The kids are going to make noise. It was the first time I don't think I was self-conscious about it. And I remember, that was a breakthrough. Okay, kids are kids. I don't have to worry too much about what people think.
Michael Prince 06:59
Yeah. Another great memory. The views from the top of that hotel were incredible.
Tony Cooper 07:04
Yeah. I don't know how much you remember, but going back into those moments of early, when you don't know what you're doing and you're like, I really don't know what the right thing or the wrong thing is. What did that do to you? Because it's sort of, I know what the right moves are and I'll make them. I might make a mistake, but there's consequences to make mistakes when you're new to parenting. I don't know, what do you remember?
Michael Prince 07:30
It was like, in those moments, you know, I'm an emotional person, and in stressful situations, I can be anxious a bit. And I just remember emotionally charged, whenever there's a challenge and kids crying, and your child crying. I think I learned over the years just calm down, just calm down and slow down. But when it's the first time, I mean, those were challenging moments. And I just remember being afraid. I would try to make decisions as quickly as possible, to try to calm the situation down. And sometimes it would work out right, sometimes it would escalate the situation. And you learn through that. But, I mean, I guess I remember just being emotionally anxious when there was an accident or something happened, the kids are crying or your wife is stressed, whatever it may be. You go through all of that. So it gets easier after you've been through it once or twice and you've seen situations you can handle a little more calmly. As I was sharing, I think my firstborn, Kervin, has some extra battle scars because I did my best, but maybe sometimes it was learning on the job a little bit.
Tony Cooper 08:37
So. Yeah, well, you know what's the expression? Like, you got to burn the first batch. You got to work it out. You got to figure out what you're doing.
Michael Prince 08:54
Unfortunately, they're not cookies. It's a kid.
Tony Cooper 09:01
So, yeah, it has an impact on not being the parent that you wish you were for that particular kid. But what would you have done differently? If you think back, we love Kervin. Kervin was a handful as a kid. He was very willful, and he liked things his own way.
09:21
And you like people to go with the flow. So that was a bit of a conflict that I recall from the early days.
Michael Prince 09:26
Yeah, he was an active child for sure. And had intense interests. And when he got interested in something, he would hyper focus into it. And he's still a bit like that. I think he's going to be wildly successful because of it. But when I look back, how would I have handled anything differently? I really think, just knowing what I know, hindsight's always 20/20, but just remaining calm and just trying to force yourself in anxious moments, when the child is anxious and all hell has broken loose and it's a calamity situation you have to parent through. I mean, I think just trying to keep yourself calm, and I think I look back at some of those moments and I know I probably just threw gas on the fire because I got emotional. And I think I learned maybe you just have to tell yourself, I just need to calm down. I cannot react or overreact to this because it's just going to create a negative impact. And so, looking at it now, I think I took that into parenting Dylan and Josie, and those went a little more smoothly than the first one. But it was also, I've seen those situations, I knew how to handle myself a little better, and I was a little more calm around the child being upset about something than I was the first time through. So, yeah, staying calm is, I mean, it's cliche, but you have to tell yourself, no matter how crazy the situation is, and sometimes it gets wild, just stay calm and try to make a calm decision. Keep yourself calm, because the second you rise to a level of anxiety, it just fuels the fire. That's my two cents.
Tony Cooper 11:19
So as you were saying, the memory that came to me was not when they were little at all, but we were visiting you guys in Austin, and we were at your house and we're all having dinner and we were eating steak, and then Kervin started choking on the steak. Remember that night? That was one where you couldn't remain too calm. You had to hop out of the chair, take him outside, give him a Heimlich. And he had a big piece of meat that had him turning blue.
Michael Prince 11:45
So that was a little bit. I mean, that's one of those moments where you're like, oh, I really have to do something. I really do need to act. Real, real live choking right in front of us. I don't know if I've ever seen that before, but I definitely, it was so crazy because we were all like, what's happening. And then he literally started turning blue and I just went and grabbed him and Heimliched him. And that steak went flying.
Tony Cooper 12:19
But you were like so amped up. I remember you like chewed your food, like chunks all over him afterward too.
Michael Prince 12:32
Not my proudest moment.
Tony Cooper 12:34
There we go. Well, no, but you saved the kid's life, so you can get away with whatever you want.
Michael Prince 12:38
Well, okay, yeah, no, I know, but I should have been more just in the moment. Hey, that was cool. Calm down.
Tony Cooper 12:53
No, but I think that's the whole point is. Well, I mean, it's easy, especially that's a perfect example because your kid's life is literally at stake. And I think we confuse that a lot. More parents, I think, overreact because we somehow think the situation is much more problematic than it really is. That was one of those. Was like, no, it was exactly as problematic as it was. And so, if you're ever going to react in a particular way, that was the moment. Because it was the same energy that got you up to act instantly. Got you up. You kind of knew exactly what to do and you saved his life. Like you realize your child is actually possibly choking, turning blue, and something is terribly wrong. That was pure adrenaline driving that. And I think it's important. Know your Heimlich maneuver.
Michael Prince 13:20
Yeah, there's a lesson in that. If you don't know how to do a Heimlich, learn the Heimlich maneuver. Very important.
Tony Cooper 13:29
Before fajitas.
Michael Prince 13:31
Before they eat fajitas for the first time.
Tony Cooper 13:33
Exactly. Oh, my God. But I think that's probably, you know, that adrenaline you were just talking about, that drive, that's what's a little bit on over alert when the kid's really little, because you don't know what you're doing. And also you grew up with a dad who cast quite a shadow. And so you're one of the people who has a father that you had huge admiration for and probably big shoes to step into. So when you became a dad, how much of that was present for you?
Michael Prince 14:06
You know, my father was a huge role model for me. He was the best man in my wedding. He's one of those great Americans that just missed the greatest generation. He wasn't in World War II, but he graduated high school early and decided he wanted to go serve. And he went off to West Point and came from a little town outside of Shreveport, Louisiana. He was high school graduating class of eight, I believe, or less than that, even. Maybe it was in Elm Grove, Louisiana. Ends up at West Point and graduated in the top few people in his class. Was personal friends with Buzz Aldrin, who walked on the moon, and multiple other astronauts. He went on to a military career and flew jets and early supersonic jets, then started a business career post military, and was highly successful. Very, very smart person. And that was a high bar. Really, really high bar. And amusing story, I'm not sure if I've shared it with you, but when my father passed away back in 1999, my brothers and I were in his office pulling his office apart and putting it in boxes. And there's probably literally 50 achievement awards on the wall. And all I could think about as I'm putting these awards in the boxes is that scene from The Big Lebowski, where the Dude is looking in the rich and famous Lebowski's office, and there's a plaque, "Man of the Year," and it's a mirrored plaque, and the Dude's looking at himself in the mirror, "Man of the Year," kind of making this face, like, not sure I'm living up to it. That's kind of how I felt. And having a strong father like that, I've always wanted to live up to that and be a strong father for my kids and be there for them and give them a good role model that they can say, he has a good work ethic, he gets up every day, he's pushing himself to provide for us, and that's what it means.
Tony Cooper 16:21
You know, I think you're that way with your kids. You're an impressive person, and I know they look up to you unbelievably so. You coach people how to do things. You host a podcast on being an awesome dad.
Michael Prince 16:33
So, I mean, you know the story, but, you know, definitely having a strong father impacted me, and I hope it impacts my children as well.
Tony Cooper 16:42
As you were being a dad, how much were you either thinking about what would my dad do, or... One of the things I noticed is that so much of how we were parented just gets embedded in us and then comes out of us. I've talked about how I screamed a lot at the kids when they were little, but that was just because I got screamed at a lot. And it was one of those things that Tammy had to point out, like, you're being like your dad, you should stop doing that. So I don't know, what are some of those things for you, that you noticed?
Michael Prince 17:11
Well, yeah, no, that's a really good point. My dad didn't scream. He didn't scream at all. It was very, very rarely he would get involved. And it was usually because my mom was yelling at him to get involved.
Tony Cooper 17:21
Recruiting reinforcement.
Michael Prince 17:23
And there were those moments where I was so incorrigible and so excited, or, you know, he'd actually whip the belt off and walk around the house. He only caught me a couple times. But those are memorable times. But, I mean, to your question, I remember, and this is not my finest parenting moment by any means, in fact, there were those moments that I look back on and think, oh, my God, how did that even happen. But you get into those situations where your kids are completely out of control when they're little and they're not listening to anything, and everything's just turning up and up and up and up. And I just remember, I think each of them got one or two of these, but throwing them over my knee and spanking them a little, not hard, but giving them a couple smacks on the backside. And that would be something my dad would do. It was an instinctual thing. It wasn't like I was thinking about it or premeditating it. And I just remember instantly the kids' reaction, and seeing it, it was like, what did I just do? Why did I do that? Can't do that anymore, that was just ridiculous. So I feel some regret about that. But in the moment, something needed to change the dynamic. I don't recommend that to anyone. Resist the urge. It's not worth it.
Tony Cooper 18:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it's that adrenaline, like, it's not working, I've tried everything, I don't know what's working, and something just kind of takes over you. It's not like you're sitting there logically going, huh, what do I think the best solution is.
Michael Prince 19:03
Right. Yeah, right. It wasn't. But I remember getting spanked as a kid, and I guess now I better understand it. But I think it was more common back then. I think that was like the common parental practice.
Tony Cooper 19:14
Oh, you gotta spank your kids.
Michael Prince 19:16
Yeah, yeah. Now I think you go to jail for that. Call Child Protective Services or something.
Tony Cooper 19:22
Yeah, not a thing anymore. And then we tapped out after we had our first two kids. And then you guys were so adventurous. You're like, we should have a third.
Michael Prince 19:27
And I was like, wow. Two boys were born 18 months apart, and then five years behind was Josie. And to a large degree, that was Susie really pushing hard and convincing me that this is what we need to do. And I'm so thankful. She was the right decision in every way for us. Having a daughter, I had two boys to start, and having a daughter is a totally different parenting experience for a father.
Tony Cooper 20:07
You know that, having one of each. But you and I grew up the same. We both come from a family of three boys.
Michael Prince 20:14
Correct.
Tony Cooper 20:16
You were the baby, I was the middle, but I had a girl first, you had two boys. Because I remember when Olivia was born, I was 100% convinced that she was going to be a boy. And then I was 100% wrong. And then when Leo was born, I was 100% convinced that he was going to be a girl, and I was also wrong. But I was kind of afraid of having a girl because I was like, what did I know about raising girls? And so I figured it out, obviously. And then when Leo was born, I was like, what do I know about raising boys? So what was it like? You obviously know about boys, you had two boys, and then seven, eight years later, you have a girl. What was that like, Josie?
Michael Prince 21:01
I mean, just fantastic, little baby girl. I mean, there's nothing better in the world for a father to hold a little baby girl. It's just amazing. And I was just so happy. Susie was thrilled. She wanted a baby girl. So really, really a great, joyous moment in our lives that we had. And I was convinced, after two, we were done. And then we had a baby girl and then I had to learn a whole new world. Parenting a little girl, they're much more sensitive, they require gentleness, much more so than boys. The boys were rough and tumble, let's go. Josie was pretty strong, I mean, she's definitely a strong-willed little girl, but also very sensitive in many ways. And I treated her differently, I really did. I think that's just how, I come from a family, no, my mother was the only woman in the family, I didn't have sisters. So I really didn't know what I was doing on how to raise a girl, kind of flying blind to a degree. But I will say, she was the easiest for me. I don't know if that's just her personality, she is very easygoing, but I found her to be the easiest.
Tony Cooper 22:10
And what was different, like in your actual raising of her, you obviously, more sensitive, the different brains are wired differently, but as far as becoming a girl dad, what did you do specifically differently with Josie that you didn't with Kervin and Dylan?
Michael Prince 22:25
Well, I always tried to spend time with each of them individually, of course, every parent does that. But with Josie, I tried to really carve out time. My good friend Chris Wilbrandt gave me a book, it was like Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters. He had daughters older than mine, and it was a great read and it was very helpful. So thank you, Chris. Josie and I started at a pretty early age taking her on daddy-daughter dates, where she would dress up in a dress and I'd put a jacket on and we'd go to Eddie V's and we'd order oysters. And she'd never had oysters, she still loves oysters to this day, which is great. And those were joyous moments, and I think we both really cherish that time together. She still brings them up from time to time, and I have great memories of those.
Tony Cooper 23:20
When did you start? Like, at what age did you start?
Michael Prince 23:23
I'd say she was about 5. We have a great picture, me sitting at the table with her and an oyster, a tray of oysters, and she's five years old, six years old, maybe. And just out for a date with dad. And we have some great photos from that and some great memories. I highly recommend daddy-daughter dates.
Tony Cooper 23:47
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and also, being one of three and being the only girl, she does get some special rights, because it's easy, if she was just another boy, you probably wouldn't be pulling that one apart and having a special thing with. Although you probably should. But as a father, what we're really doing is, how we treat our daughters and how we raise our daughters is really training them for what they look for in a partner in life. It's so important from an early age to be able to convey what it is that you want them to think about themselves. And it's those little actions, like a daddy-daughter date, it's way more than just cute and photogenic.
Michael Prince 24:26
But, yeah, I think it imparted something into Josie that she probably carries to this day.
Tony Cooper 24:35
Yeah, I agree with you.
Michael Prince 24:37
And I never really thought about it that deeply, but that was the purpose. I mean, I think at the end of the day it was to treat her specially, to let her know that I care and her time with her is important to me.
Tony Cooper 24:49
Yeah. And in a way, it's preparing her for later in life when she has, you know, a paramour is taking her on dates, it's not her first time.
Michael Prince 25:00
Yeah, yeah. She's got standards.
Tony Cooper 25:03
Exactly. She should. That's awesome. One of the things I love about you and Susie is just, you guys are good time people, you love to have fun. You're both very entertaining and love entertainment. You've introduced me to so much great music and experiences. And so just thinking about that for your kids to grow up with parents who just love to have a good time, how did that impact those guys?
Michael Prince 25:36
I think it impacted them quite greatly. Just a few of the things you mentioned, I'm a musician, we're in a musical family. I came from a musical family, my mother played music, my two brothers played music, so it's been a big part of our family culture. My parents are originally from Louisiana, and they had house parties all the time when I was a kid. Every football game they'd have people over, be playing cards, watching the game on TV while I'm crawling into the game table, kind of thing. So there's a little bit of, that's a generational thing, I think a little, I picked up a little bit of that. And Kirvin very much that way, I already see a lot of my lifestyle in his lifestyle, he definitely likes to host and have fun with his friends. Dylan is more of an introverted child, he's more of the, you know, he's very creative, extremely creative. He's taken on music and is a wildly talented musician for his age, an extremely creative kid. But he isn't the most socially outgoing, or hasn't been. He is now, when he was a child, that wasn't his happy place. So I think at times our social family dynamic was really stressful for him and often maybe too noisy for him. So I feel for putting him through that. Josie, I think has just been, she goes with the flow so easily, she's a pretty special young lady. She's happy in almost any setting you put her in and always has been, an extremely social person as well. So I do think they've all perhaps benefited from some social skills of just constantly being bombarded by our friend groups or being put in this or that or the other situations, whether it be hosting parties or having friends over or going to dinners or cooking up barbecues, whatever it may be. It's part of our family culture, and I hope they take that forward, because it's something I get a lot of joy out of my life, and hopefully they will too.
Tony Cooper 27:37
Yeah. And you guys don't just have friends, you have communities. When we met you guys, you're like, oh, you should come out to our Fourth of July picnic. Remember at Rainbow Park in Timberon? And I was like, there's like 50, 60 people there. You flew in barbecue from Texas, taught me how to play horseshoes. It was like, there's an enormous community of people that you create around you.
Michael Prince 28:04
Well, Susie and I get a lot of energy from being around our friends. It comes with a cost, I think, at times, but we love spending time with our friends and family and getting everyone together. It's kind of a cultural thing, that's sort of how my family grew up doing these things, and it wasn't ever premeditated, it just sort of the way we are. And Susie's very similar in that case, we're sort of amplifiers. So I invite 10 people, she invites 10, then another 10 come, and you have a 30 person party, not a 10 person party. I think it's a great thing for kids to experience.
Tony Cooper 28:36
Our world's kind of weird, we live in houses, we have neighbors nearby, but you're like, hey, neighbor, but you're mostly just very insular and have really small family units. And you guys have just definitely shown me the opportunity of how to really create a whole community. And I think it's great for kids to be exposed to that, like, you're not alone, there's a lot of people and there's a lot of friends. And probably even more so for Dylan, to have it embedded in him, like, that's a thing, maybe his tendency would be to kind of seek aloneness, but you've shown him a lot of community is great.
Michael Prince 29:04
Yeah, I agree, I totally agree with you. And I see Dylan has a very, very tight group of friends and always has, navigating friends is a challenging thing for a lot of kids growing up. I mean, Josie and the girls, in their transition, turning into young teens into young adults, the girl dynamics, this is always an interesting dynamic, girl dynamic is very different than boy dynamic, especially in middle school.
Tony Cooper 29:38
It is, it is.
Michael Prince 29:40
But I think that my kids have become fairly adjusted at being able to make friends and keep friends, and they want to be around friends. Now I'm living out in this kind of country home with a second guest house studio where I am right now, and Dylan's out here almost every night this summer with buddies over watching the games, and that just makes me really happy.
Tony Cooper 30:07
Yeah, yeah, awesome. So your kids are all teenagers and beyond, so remember the whole transition, there's multiple ages, right? When they're really, really little, they're just little babies, and then they become beings, but then that movement into the teenage years is always very interesting, hormones and all this stuff. So what do you remember from those transitions for your kids, and in particular, what was that like for you and how'd you do with it?
Michael Prince 30:24
It was challenging. You're always learning, you're being presented with new scenarios, new problems that you have to try and solve, and rules and boundaries you have to set the first time through. It was a learning experience. And I remember having to really get my head around, how do I deal with a child that needs independence, should have a rope, but how long do you let the rope go? And figuring that out was a real challenge, and also at times terrifying. Your child is out past curfew, cell phone is dead, you have no idea where they are. This is a modern day problem. But years ago, that was, you just come home late and my dad or my mom would scream at me. But it's just terrifying now, having to frantically call other parents asking if they've seen my son, those types of things. I just hated being in that situation. Once you kind of figure it out, you've had one go through some of those motions, it gets easier. And again, I've learned to be more calm through those situations.
Tony Cooper 31:32
Yeah, right. It's definitely one of those very interesting, oh shit moments, like, I used to be the one that these rules needed to be created and held for and I hated them and thought they were stupid, but now I'm in the position where I'm the one creating them, and you're like, it's a funny feeling.
Michael Prince 31:53
Yeah, absolutely. And the transitions keep moving. They move from high school into being adults that can live on their own, off in college. But every phase, it's like that. You send your kids off to college, it's not like parenting stops. I'm still parenting right now. Every one of them, there's always new things to learn. They're always doing something for the first time they've never done. They're coming to me for advice, and I'm giving advice. It's an ongoing thing, parenting doesn't stop.
Tony Cooper 32:20
It's an interesting thing, right? Like when they're fully on their own, but there's the advice, everything you're giving, but it's like you're less attached to them doing anything with the advice.
Michael Prince 32:34
I mean, it's still good advice, and if they don't take it, they're idiots. But it's almost like at a certain point, you're like, all right, my job is done, you're fully baked, and I'm happy to keep steering you if you're looking for something.
Tony Cooper 32:45
But, yeah, I do love the idea that we get to, at least in teenage years, create safe ways to fail, so that they can, but not really up their life. Right, but that's what you were talking about, that terror of, like, are they going to up their life right now? Like, I don't know, if they're not, I shouldn't worry, but they could be. And so, yeah, that's a weird feeling.
Michael Prince 33:02
Yeah, it can be terrifying for a bit. But I agree, when they get a bit older, should I get a credit card, how do I manage finances, these are things that I'm dealing with, these are things I'm thinking about right now. How do I set them up for financial success when they're out and making their own money and all of those things? I want to make sure they're prepared for that.
Tony Cooper 33:30
I think one of the prep questions for having a conversation about being a dad with you is, what regrets do you have? And one of the things I look back and say, oh, my gosh, I wish I could have done, I showed them the easy way that I manage things. And how do you handle things simply, that's what I do, I look for the simplest path to solve a problem. So if I have a flat tire, the simplest path is I call AAA, and AAA comes out and changes the tire, puts the spare on, and I take it and I go get a new tire. So what did I do when my kids started driving? I gave them AAA cards. And you know what I never taught them was how to change a tire.
Michael Prince 34:18
So now I've just pushed it on down where they don't know how to do anything other than the simplest way, which is to call AAA. And I really, I didn't teach them.
Tony Cooper 34:33
So it's kind of a regret that I didn't teach them first how to change the tire and then realize how awful that experience is, that here's the easiest way to do it. I gave them the easy button on how I handle situations and have taught them that, rather than, well, this is actually how the situation works and you need to learn how to do these things. Where I used to be much more hands on when I was younger and growing up, my dad wasn't around to show me these things, I'd have to figure them out. Remember the first time I had a flat tire, I literally, I remember pulling out a manual in the glove compartment and having to figure out how to jack up a car, take the tire off and put it on. And I think for parents, teach them how things work first before you hit the easy button.
Michael Prince 35:17
Yeah, I think so.
Tony Cooper 35:19
All right, so they don't know how to change a tire, what's the harm? There's no real harm there. Unless they're out in the Outback in Australia and they have...
Michael Prince 35:30
There are situations, I'm sure there's situations they can find themselves in where changing a tire can be life or death.
Tony Cooper 35:40
They are smart, they have skills, they study.
Michael Prince 35:47
Yeah, yeah, yes, sure, you could have done those things. But I also think about all the things that you have done with your kids, you say easy, you always like to find the fun way to do things. In a lot of ways, you've done a lot of fun stuff with your kids, and I know you guys are big UT fans, and now that you're back in Texas, you get to go to games and going out on the boat on the lake. And I think about your family as just a really fun family to hang out with.
Tony Cooper 36:10
So sure, the kids have that experience, it goes both ways. There's no family more fun than I could think of than the Coopers in their backyard. I just love it, your kids are just such lovely people.
Michael Prince 36:25
Yeah, we just spoil the shit out of our kids, I guess you're right.
Tony Cooper 36:29
Like, I think that's probably the takeaway, but I think that's okay, I think our kids should be spoiled, not rotten, but they should be rewarded for really good behavior. Staying between the lines, that's kind of one thing I've always sort of viewed it that way, like, where's that red line that you can't cross, they can run along, maybe they can step out of bounds, but making sure you set those red lines, and if they cross a red line, for example, drunk driving, that's one, I was just like, that'll ruin your life, you can never get a job if you end up with a felony on your record, it's on every job application, could affect your lifelong career.
Michael Prince 37:03
You know, I gave them all Uber accounts, I'll pay it, it's worth it, don't make the bad decision.
Tony Cooper 37:09
That's awesome. Yeah, I mean, I think what I'm hearing is also, teach them how to have a great life, show them what's great, and then also show them the responsibility associated with that. Olivia always liked to drink beer, like, from the earliest age, she would take a sip of Tammy's beer, we're like, ah. I definitely didn't want to create alcohol as this taboo thing, plus you're going to watch me do it all the time. And it's like, how do you teach the responsibility? And I remember it's probably like 13 or 14, and we were out on the patio and having a couple beers, and she said, can I have a beer? And I poured her half a glass, and she's like, wow, that's a lot. I was like, I want you to drink half a beer. And so she did, and she loved it. And then she started acting all giddy, right, she started feeling like a little bit of what drunk feels like for the first time. And then I was like, okay, get up and walk. And she started walking, she's like, whoa, I'm leaning. I'm like, okay, can you imagine now getting behind the wheel of a car and driving? And she was like, instantly like, oh, no, that would be terrible, like, I would probably crash. I'm like, right, all you had was half a beer. And so really anchoring in, have the beer, but don't drive.
Tony Cooper 38:20
Yeah, and I love the idea that everyone's got an Uber account and no one has to drive, and, man, what a world now too, like, you don't have to worry about it. What else do you want to talk about, about your journey as a dad, and now you get to look back on it?
Michael Prince 38:28
I just think being a parent is so much fun, and it's transformed my life in so many ways. Once in a blue moon, I'll meet someone who's maybe 35, 40 years old, and they tell me they're never going to have kids, and, I mean, that might be for them, but I just think, wow, they're going to miss so much about life. I wasn't screaming, like, I can't wait to have children, until I had them, and it's just so transformational, that I've just enjoyed being a father. It's one of the coolest things, it's one of the best honors of my life is having children. I'm just blessed to have children. And if you can have children, have as many as you can afford, just enjoy the experience. I mean, sure, there are moments of terror, there are moments of difficulty that come along with that, but there's so much joy, and they bring so much joy to my life, and I just can't fathom not having children, raising children.
Tony Cooper 39:44
Yeah, for any other dads that are out there saying, I don't want a second child or I don't want a third child, have as many as you possibly can afford, because it's really great, and I think that that's it. I mean, part of the reason why we didn't have three is just we weren't in a place to be able to do it. But it's easy to make the argument of like, oh, we don't need any more kids, when it's a vague concept of kid, and then you have a child and it's Josie, and you're like, I can't believe I would have ever even had a second thought about this, what a blessing it is to have.
Michael Prince 40:05
Once they come, it's like, yeah, it was the best decision I ever made. Beforehand, you're like, I don't know if I can do it, 100%.
Tony Cooper 40:21
So I'd be curious, what was your biggest challenge parenting your kids growing up?
Michael Prince 40:22
It was finding my way to being the dad that I wanted to be. Because, like I was saying before, about just the particular wiring that I had, that was just embedded in me. And I'm not saying my dad is a bad dad, and I think every single generation is attempting to be better than their parent, and I guarantee he was, he was definitely better than his dad. It's funny because I talked to my brother a couple weeks ago, Evan, my younger brother, and he said before he became a dad, he did like a whole research project, he talked to a bunch of people and he built a whole spreadsheet about things, and literally, he had a whole plan. I've talked to other dads who had a whole plan, like somebody said they had like a hundred page manifesto. I was like, I didn't plan out at all, and I made it up as I was going along. And I think that not having a real good mentor to point things out, like a hotline I could call, definitely made it really, really difficult, not having family around. When my parents were around, it was like everything comes with a price, we got child care, we also got an earful about stuff. So getting through this first couple years, having two within 18 months was just a lot. But I look back on it now and I'm like, I wouldn't have done it any differently, it actually worked out great. The fact that they were both kind of in diapers and then out of diapers and you have to worry about it, you obviously jump back in five years later. But it was just hard finding my way, I think that's probably what I would say.
Tony Cooper 41:49
I would say that was probably my most challenging thing too, I didn't know how to handle certain situations. The first time you're dealing with challenges as a parent, or a given problem situation that you had to figure out what the right way is to handle the situation, and often I would escalate things by being emotional. It took me a while to figure that out and just really kind of get to a spot where I'd be very calm and just be able to navigate telling them how to handle a situation without throwing gas on the fire.
Michael Prince 42:25
Well, I know you're reluctant to say it, but I'll say I think you're a great dad, and I've watched you over the years become even better and better because you care, because you want to be, and you have that self-awareness to kind of go like, I didn't like how I handled that, maybe I can try it differently, like that's all there is for most people.
Tony Cooper 42:44
So well, I appreciate the compliment, and likewise, I mean, you're a fantastic father.
Michael Prince 42:57
Thank you. All right, so final thing, thinking back to San Francisco, got these brand new babies, we don't know what we're doing as a dad, we don't quite know how to interact with a newborn, we don't know how to interact with our wives, and the best thing, but what wisdom would you impart to somebody who's at that part of their journey?
Tony Cooper 43:37
You know, I think it just comes down to keeping an even keeled demeanor, maybe not reacting too quickly to situations and thinking more logically about a situation, taking a little more time to figure out a response, a punishment, whatever it may be, to set those boundaries, try to de-escalate situations rather than just create complete mayhem. And I think going through it, looking back, I think the key is just trying to stay relaxed, and it's a hard thing to do, but if you just mentally tell yourself I need to relax, I think it will help any parent as they're going through their journey. And communication is key, with your wife, with the kids, being fair, I mean, it's another one, I think it's always, it's not a one sided street, you need to listen. I mean, that's rocket science, but make sure the kids have a voice and get to say their piece, don't railroad them, let them have their moment and be a fair judge.
Michael Prince 44:12
Yeah, final thought, what do you hope that Kervin hears out of this conversation?
Tony Cooper 44:53
Well, frankly, I just hope he listens to it and I hope he hears how hard his dad tried, and it's someday in his life he's going to want to have children, and he will try equally hard to do his best every day to be the best dad he could be. And that's my goal. Every parent has moments they will regret with their children and how they handled situations, and apologies they've got to make, or whatever, to say this to a kid, like, I really handled that poorly, or whatever. But if Kervin can hear this, I hope he knows that I always had his best interest in mind, even though I may have handled the situation poorly to respond to that.
Michael Prince 45:07
There you go, awesome. Thank you, Michael, this is great, I love any time we have together, so this was fantastic.
Tony Cooper 45:11
Well, I'm so happy to be here, thanks so much for having me on this, it's been a great experience. You made me think about some things I've never really had to sit down and think about, it's been a lot of fun, so I'm happy to share, hopefully someone found some wise words in there somewhere, but it's been a pleasure to be on your podcast, and I wish you the best success.
Michael Prince 45:32
Thank you, brother.
Tony Cooper 45:33
All right, until next time.
Michael Prince 45:50
All right, man.
Tony Cooper 45:50
I just want to thank you for listening to this episode of the Dad Manual Podcast, and for supporting dads to become the best version of themselves as they strive to bring healing and inspiration to their families. I'm looking to grow a community of fathers who are ready to change the world. But I need your help. It's super valuable to the podcast when you like an episode, when you leave us a rating and support, subscribe to our YouTube channel, when you follow us on Instagram, the Dad Manual Podcast, and maybe even the most important, when you share the podcast with the dad you love. Also, you can impact what we talk about here. If you've got questions or topics you want me to explore, email them to me at [e-mail]. I would love to answer your question on our next episode. And until next time.
Tony Cooper 46:23
Hi, I'm Tony Cooper, and this is the Dad Manual Podcast.