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Join certified trauma professional Dr. Amy Hoyt and licensed therapist Leina Hoyt, MFT at https://www.mendingtrauma.com as they teach you how to recover from trauma and cPTSD. Trauma shows up in our everyday reactions and sensations and recovering requires a multi-prong approach that considers the mind, body and spirit. Dr. Amy and Leina will teach you the most emerging research and skills to empower you to overcome your past traumas. They address nervous system health, somatic therapy, trauma, cPTSD, EMDR, Neurofeedback, IFS (Internal Family Systems therapy), and many other modes of recovering from trauma. As mental health experts, sisters and trauma survivors, they teach you the tools that actually helped them recover, are backed by research and have helped thousands of their clients. Each episode is packed with clinically effective methods as well as scientific findings to guide you through your own trauma healing journey. Whether discussing cPTSD, PTSD, medical trauma, somatic therapy, nervous system regulation, EMDR or neurofeedback, Amy and Leina will help you recover from trauma so that you can reconnect to yourself and others.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (00:01)
Hi everyone, welcome back. Happy September and happy Labor Day. We are excited to be with you today. September is actually suicide prevention month in the United States and so we wanted to focus this episode on suicidal ideation and trauma so that we can give you resources if you are someone who's experiencing suicidal ideation or if you're someone who has a loved one who
has any sort of suicidal ideation that we're giving you some information and some tools to help you understand best practices.
Leina (00:38)
Yep. We're excited to do this. This is a really important topic and some of the research indicates that women with PTSD have a higher incident of suicide attempts while men have a lower incident. no, I don't want to say that.
You want me to mark the clip? Okay.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (01:04)
go ahead and do it. So one of the interesting pieces of research is that when you've had trauma, you actually have a higher risk of suicide. And specifically, this was a study done in Sweden of over 3 million people. So a very, very large study looking at the link between PTSD disorder, know, post -traumatic stress disorder and trauma and what they found
is that PTSD is definitely a risk factor for suicide, especially in women. The risk is primarily attempts before you get your actual PTSD diagnosis, and that makes a lot of sense to us. We'll talk about that in a little bit. PTSD actually accounts for 0 .6 % of suicides in men in this study, but 3 .5 % in women.
And then finally, up to 54 % of the suicides in this study were people who had PTSD and the suicides are attributed to PTSD. So there's a really strong link between trauma and suicide. And that's another reason we feel really strongly that this is something we want to address. So let's look at what suicide.
suicidal ideation is specifically. Leina, what is it?
Leina (02:34)
Well, it is the thought of wanting to kill yourself so that you don't have to endure any more pain. And it's fascinating to me that people who had received their PTSD diagnosis had less suicide attempts in this Swedish study. And it makes sense to me because once you understand what's happening for you, there's less self blame usually.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (03:00)
Mm
Leina (03:01)
And you can start to understand yourself a little better and you can give yourself a little bit of grace or you can notice more without judgment. And there's a particular correlation between complex or developmental PTSD, excuse me, complex or developmental trauma. And those who've had a history of ongoing childhood traumatic events, whether it's the
Dr. Amy Hoyt (03:11)
Mm that's right.
Leina (03:29)
alcoholic dynamic or other kinds of abuse, they have a higher risk for suicide.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (03:40)
Yeah. And you know, one of the things we've talked about this on other episodes of our podcast, but, I made a suicide attempt when I was 15. And one of the things that really strikes me is that there was no thought in my mind of I am going to commit suicide. The thought was I need to be out of pain right now. I am in so much emotional pain.
and so much emotional overwhelm that this, don't know how else to stop it. I've already tried everything else I know how to do. So I need this pain to end. And I think that's really important for people to understand. Now there are different scenarios of people who do commit suicide. Sometimes it is well planned out and well thought out and sometimes it is very...
Leina (04:20)
Right.
Yes.
Spur of the moment almost.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (04:38)
Yeah, spur of the moment, like mine was, it was not planned out. And so we, know, that's helpful to understand as well as of course, like anything else we talk about, this is not one size fits all, there's always going to be differences in context and application depending on the circumstance. So let's talk about
something that we like to talk about. So we both have kind of dark senses of humor and humor is one of the best ways to deal with trauma, by the way. So sometimes we might joke about, you know, a quick exit or just needing this to be done or, you know, something that might seem really dark and that's
Leina (05:13)
Right.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (05:35)
just between our family members or super close friends. And so it's in no way to discount the seriousness of suicide. But what that really brings us to is we've been talking a lot about how a lot of people have fleeting thoughts that they want to end their emotional pain. And this is normal.
Leina (05:41)
Right.
Absolutely not.
Absolutely. Yeah. And if people understand that it's not a sign of something horrific for them, but that they are wanting the pain to end and wanting the pain to end is not necessarily suicidal ideation. So I have, I even myself have
have had thoughts in the past where I was like, I wish a bus would hit me and I could be in the hospital for three weeks knocked out. Well, that's, that's because I'm looking for a respite from the pain. doesn't mean that I'm planning on finding a bus and walking out in front of it. And, so when we understand that we can have these fleeting thoughts and we can understand that it doesn't mean that we're going to go out and kill ourselves
Dr. Amy Hoyt (06:43)
Mm -hmm.
Leina (06:58)
then we can use that as information or clues to us about where to seek some kind of other way to find respite.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (07:06)
That's a great point. One of the things that we want to also drive home is that when we have those fleeting thoughts that we just want some serious immediate relief, often we start having judgments about those thoughts. And so let's talk about clean pain versus dirty pain, Leina.
Leina (07:27)
Yeah, and this is one of my favorite topics because it just encapsulates perfectly what happens for us as humans. So the clean pain might be, I really just wanna be in a coma for three weeks. And the dirty pain would be, my gosh, why am I thinking this? That must mean X, Y, Z for me. And what kind of person thinks these kinds of things? So you're
Your ability to describe that as we have the thought and then the dirty pain is the judgment about the thought, I think is so excellent. And we do that much more frequently than we realize in general human beings do.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (08:08)
Yeah. Well, there's a lot of shame about having a thought that you want to die. Even if the thought of death is simply to just get out of this complex, contentious world we live in. Right. And so when we, when we start having shame about our thoughts, instead of just noticing them and letting them float by,
Leina (08:11)
Yes.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (08:37)
then that's the dirty pain, as Leina said.
Leina (08:39)
Absolutely. And the shame will then often trigger more distress. I mean, it's almost inevitable. And so instead of noticing the thought and just observing it, we, we notice the thought, then we judge it, then we have shame, then we feel more distressed, then we have more thoughts, then we have more shame. And it becomes this really terribly painful cycle.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (09:02)
Yeah. So one tip is if you notice a thought that you're having, I want to drive my car into a tree because that would just be so much easier than having to deal with my divorce. Okay, that's a thought. So what you want to ask yourself is, do I have a plan to drive into a tree? Yes or no. And then from there,
we'll have we have some steps for you, but if it is simply a thought because I mean I've had those thoughts for sure.
It's, if it is simply a thought and we're not holding on to that thought and letting that thought continue over and over, that's the difference. If it is a fleeting thought, most likely there is not a cause for high concern.
Leina (09:58)
Right, and it's an indication of a nervous system state. And nervous system states are always temporary. Although some of us who've had complex trauma or lots of trauma don't experience them as temporary because we tend to be in a collapsed state more frequently or a fight or flight state more frequently. Understanding that certain thoughts will come to us when we're in a certain nervous system state
Dr. Amy Hoyt (10:07)
Mm
Leina (10:29)
can allow us to have more perspective and then potentially work to change our nervous system state.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (10:39)
That's a great point. If you are a loved one and you have someone come to you. So first off, if you are not having fleeting thoughts, but you're having persistent thoughts about suicide or getting out of pain through death, we want you to find someone that you feel is a safe person to talk to about it. And
if you can't think of anyone that you feel safe enough to talk to about it, then we want you to remember that there is a mental health suicide hotline, which is 9 8 8. And you can have immediate help through either texting or calling or chatting through a chat box with 9 8 8.
Leina (11:30)
Mm-hmm
Dr. Amy Hoyt (11:33)
and they will play some hold music while you're connected to a counselor, especially if you're a veteran or English is not your first language or you are LGBTQI plus and you are looking for specific services, you will hear some hold music. So don't hang up. And then a counselor will say hello and introduce themselves and you will have someone to talk to. They will ask you if you're safe. They will ask about,
what's affecting you, they'll provide support and share any resources that are helpful. And so that is a tremendous resource if you are having active suicidal ideation.
Leina (12:17)
Absolutely. And I've had several kids, teenagers in the past that have used the text option because a lot of teens these days have kind of an aversion to talking on like voice to voice on the phone. And I love that the suicide hotline offers these other options, the chat box via computer and the texting and via phone. I think it's very valuable. And the other thing that we want to make really clear is
if you are plagued by thoughts of suicide, make sure you get some mental help. Like see a doctor, call a therapist, call the hotline. Don't try to battle this on your own because the ideation itself is very lonely and isolating. And we want to be able to help you
Dr. Amy Hoyt (13:06)
Mm -hmm.
Leina (13:12)
reach out for some support or help, and that is one of the hardest things to do when we have complex trauma.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (13:19)
Absolutely. If you are a person that someone comes to you, you're their safe person, and they come to you and they talk about having suicidal thoughts, here are some tips for you. First of all, listen. And then we want you to ask these questions. Do you have a plan? Do you have access to the things in your plan? Those are two really important questions.
If they have a plan, that is your indication that they need immediate and professional help. If they have access to the things in your plan, I would not delay even an hour.
Leina (13:56)
Absolutely.
Yeah, I wouldn't delay even five minutes and I would not leave them alone. So whether you call the ambulance or you drive them to the ER or you take them to a mental hospital in your geographical area, if there's intense ideation accompanied by a plan, accompanied by means to access the plan, then you don't leave them alone.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (14:04)
Yeah, correct.
Yeah. Period. Yeah. And you and I have both intervened in many suicide attempts and it might feel dramatic to the other people involved. Like we're actually going to go to the hospital right now. We're going to go to the ER. We're going to go to, typically if you have health insurance, you're going to start at the ER, they're going to do an assessment and they're going to go from there.
Leina (14:31)
Right.
Yeah.
Right. Right.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (14:59)
If you have a therapist, that could be a great immediate resource. If you can get a hold of your therapist, sometimes they're in session and you can't. And so again, you're going to want to go to the emergency room.
Leina (15:09)
Correct.
Absolutely. Because, because ideally, the idea is to prevent loss of life so that everything else can be dealt with later. And I can remember you taking me to the hospital in the early 90s. And what a relief. It was such a relief to be there. Now, hospitalization is very different now than it was then
Dr. Amy Hoyt (15:22)
That's right.
Mm -hmm.
Leina (15:41)
in terms of what a robust program I had. But the relief of not having to manage my own impulses and to be somewhere where people knew how serious this was, was tremendous.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (15:58)
Yeah, that's a great point. So in conclusion, there is a high link between trauma and suicidal ideation. There are many ways that you can get support and give support. And ultimately, with someone with an active plan that has means to use their plan to make it come to fruition, you want to immediately get them help.
Leina (16:26)
Absolutely. Yes, and we're really looking forward to our next episode next week, which in which we're discussing the impact of suicide on loved ones. There's a tremendous impact on people and so we will be addressing that in our next episode.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (16:44)
Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us. Remember that this month is Suicide Awareness Month. We're grateful we get to do this work and we're grateful that both of us have survived our suicidal ideation and suicide attempt so that we can be here to do this work and give you hope. There is so much hope.
Leina (17:06)
Absolutely, and borrow ours if you need to.
Dr. Amy Hoyt (17:08)
That's right. All right. We will see you next week. Thanks again for joining us.
Leina (17:12)
Take good care, everyone.