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The official CEO.com podcast featuring unfiltered conversations with the leaders shaping our world.
Clint Betts: Thank you so much for coming on the show. What an honor to have you. You’re the founder and principal of Breakthrough Leadership Group. You’ve written a book called The Bravery Effect. You’re probably the world’s most renowned expert on bravery. You served in the United States Marine Corps as an officer.
Give us a sense for why this is your passion. How did all of this come about?
Jill Schulman: Great question.
Well, it’s so great to be here. I’ve been so excited all weekend to finally talk to you.
I actually stumbled upon bravery as an area to study and bring to my clients when I was at the University of Pennsylvania studying positive psychology.
You may not know this, but I’m considered a happiness scientist. There’s actually a scientific study of elevating happiness and wellbeing.
So I went back to school about four years ago and graduated a couple years ago because I had run into research showing how elevating happiness in the workplace can drive results.
Since I work inside organizations, I became fascinated by that.
While studying positive psychology, I realized one of the biggest blockers preventing people from reaching self-actualization, happiness, wellbeing, and their highest potential was fear.
And I think most people misunderstand bravery.
When people think of bravery, they think of heroic moments:
a firefighter running into a burning building,
a Marine charging into battle.
And yes, I’m a former Marine officer, although I served during peacetime for five years, so I never actually ran into battle.
But real bravery is taking voluntary action in the presence of fear toward a noble and worthwhile goal.
When I realized that, I thought:
“Wow. Fear is holding so many people back from living their happiest and fullest lives.”
That realization led me to do my master’s thesis—my capstone research—on overcoming fear, which eventually became my work around the science of bravery.
Clint Betts: Give me a sense for what went into writing the book. What was that process like?
And everybody should go get it. I believe wherever you can buy books, you can get The Bravery Effect, right Jill?
Jill Schulman: Yes. It’s everywhere.
Thank you for asking.
After writing my master’s thesis at Penn, I realized:
“This message needs to reach a much larger audience.”
The academic world would see the research, but I wanted everyday people to understand the science of overcoming fear.
And I thought:
“How do I scale this message?”
Writing a book seemed like the best way.
I also wanted to get onto bigger stages and podcasts like this one to spread the message further.
I already had the research organized, but I knew I couldn’t simply publish a dry academic book full of studies and frameworks because nobody wants to read that.
So I started thinking about the business books that had the biggest impact on my clients.
Books like:
The One Minute Manager by Ken Blanchard,
or The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni.
They’re written as parables. They tell stories.
So I challenged myself to write The Bravery Effect as a parable too.
Now, the strategies and science part came naturally to me. What didn’t come naturally was bringing characters and storytelling to life.
One of the things I teach in the book is that bravery often means asking for help.
So while I was writing, I talked with one of my mentors, Ken Blanchard, and admitted:
“I’m struggling with the story side.”
His team and Spencer Johnson’s team recommended a ghostwriter.
So I partnered with an incredible ghostwriter—whom I acknowledge in the book—and he really helped bring the story to life.
And honestly, I had no idea how difficult publishing a book would be.
It’s incredibly complicated if you really want to do it well.
But I wanted this book to be the highest possible quality, and I’m really proud of the final result.
I joke that I now have two human babies and one book baby.
And when people email me saying the book helped them get unstuck or changed their lives, it makes all the effort worth it.
Clint Betts: Let’s go deeper into brave leadership and what bravery really means.
I love your definition.
How does bravery show up day-to-day for a CEO?
Because I imagine CEOs are dealing with fear constantly.
What does brave leadership actually look like in practice?
Jill Schulman: Let me give a couple practical examples.
The first is dealing with uncertainty.
One of the biggest fears leaders face is uncertainty itself.
In the military we used the term VUCA:
volatility,
uncertainty,
complexity,
ambiguity.
That’s not new—it just feels amplified in today’s business environment.
And when humans experience fear, one of the most common reactions is freezing.
That happens to CEOs too.
Sometimes leaders avoid making decisions because they’re afraid of making the wrong one.
But inaction is often the worst possible choice.
What leaders need to do is make the best decision they can with the information available and then start executing.
As execution unfolds, you gather new information:
“This is working.”
“This isn’t.”
“Adjust here.”
I recently wrote a Forbes article called “How to Lead Through Uncertainty Like a United States Marine.”
In the Marines, we never had complete information about the enemy situation. We built the best plan possible and then moved.
You don’t wait for perfect certainty.
You execute, adapt, and adjust.
That’s what CEOs need to do too.
The second major area is difficult conversations.
Many leaders avoid conflict or accountability conversations because they fear either being perceived as weak or becoming overly harsh.
But leadership isn’t:
“Either I’m a jerk or I’m soft.”
That’s the wrong framework.
Brave leadership means being willing to have difficult conversations because you genuinely care:
about the mission,
about the company,
and about the person.
I use the phrase:
“Hold people accountable, but lead with love.”
And I mean that intentionally.
You care enough about someone’s success that you’re willing to have the difficult conversation.
That’s bravery.
Clint Betts: What motivated you to join the Marines?
Jill Schulman: My grandfather fought in World War II as a United States Marine.
He fought in the Battle of Tarawa, one of the bloodiest battles in Marine Corps history.
Because of that experience, he really couldn’t talk about the war much, but it planted a seed in my mind growing up.
Honestly though, the biggest motivator was that I grew up in a small town in Minnesota and wanted to get my college paid for.
I wanted to get out of small-town America.
And I wanted to start my career doing something meaningful.
My parents were wonderful, loving parents, but their relationship with work wasn’t inspiring to me. They worked jobs they didn’t enjoy because they needed the paycheck.
And I remember thinking:
“That’s not what I want.”
I wanted purpose.
So I applied for a full Marine Corps scholarship, was fortunate enough to receive it, and suddenly this opportunity opened up.
I got on a plane from Minnesota to San Diego and never looked back.
And yes, it was hard.
People would ask:
“Why the Marines? Why not the Air Force or Navy?”
And I’d say:
“Well… it’s the few, the proud. It’s the hardest one.”
I’ve always loved challenges.
Clint Betts: That’s incredible.
So how long have you been founder and principal of Breakthrough Leadership Group? And tell us what that is.
Jill Schulman: About 12 years ago, something happened that completely changed my life.
At the time, my younger daughter Brooke was in kindergarten, and I was working in corporate America in the pharmaceutical industry.
I had transitioned from the Marines into pharma sales and leadership development and eventually landed a major promotion leading leadership development for a large immunology division.
It was a huge opportunity, but it required me to work in Chicago while my family remained in Southern California because my husband owned furniture stores there.
One Friday, I flew home early and surprised Brooke by picking her up from kindergarten.
She came running up to me with a huge hug and handed me a family drawing she’d made.
It had her, her sister Sydney, and her dad.
No mom.
That hit me hard.
And not long after that, my older daughter developed epilepsy. She’s healthy now, thankfully, but between those two moments, I realized:
“I can’t keep living this way.”
So I left corporate America and initially became a stay-at-home mom.
Honestly, that lasted about six or seven months.
I deeply respect parents who do it full time, but I realized quickly it wasn’t the right fit for me. I felt like I was losing myself.
Then one day I got a call from a former colleague at the pharma company.
He asked:
“Would you come back as a consultant once a month to facilitate our leadership programs?”
That call changed everything.
That’s how Breakthrough Leadership Group was born.
We provide leadership development solutions for large organizations, and over time my work evolved heavily into the science of bravery, fear, resilience, and leadership.
Clint Betts: So what does a typical day look like for you?
Jill Schulman: Honestly, there really isn’t a typical day.
I still have a team delivering leadership development programs, but my personal focus is now largely around the science of bravery:
research,
writing,
speaking,
and coaching.
A typical week might look like:
a podcast on Monday morning,
a little office time,
then heading straight to the airport.
Now that both of my daughters are away at college, I can travel heavily again without feeling guilty.
I’ll fly out to client sites, deliver keynote speeches, run workshops, then come home and repeat.
Sometimes I’m in Northern California or Utah.
Sometimes Chicago.
Sometimes the East Coast.
Sometimes internationally.
Every week is different, and honestly, I love that.
Clint Betts: How often are you speaking?
Jill Schulman: Usually around three times a week.
Sometimes it’s large-stage corporate keynotes.
Other times it’s smaller workshops with maybe 20 to 40 people where we can really practice and develop bravery skills together.
And I absolutely love it.
Watching people have those “lightbulb moments” where they realize bravery is actually a trainable skill—it’s incredibly rewarding.
Clint Betts: How has AI changed your work?
Jill Schulman: AI has made my team dramatically more efficient.
For example, if I meet with a client, AI can summarize the meeting, organize notes, and help me tailor recommendations much faster than I used to manually.
That’s saved enormous amounts of time behind the scenes.
At the same time, I’m careful about how I use AI as a writer.
Because I write for places like Forbes and Psychology Today, I don’t ethically feel comfortable having AI write articles for me.
But I absolutely use it as an editor or thought partner.
For example, I’ll write an article myself and then ask:
“If you were the top editor at Psychology Today, what feedback would you give me?”
Or:
“What would leading psychologists in this field critique about this?”
That’s incredibly valuable because it helps sharpen my thinking and improve the quality of my work.
Clint Betts: What do you read?
Jill Schulman: I’m constantly reading.
I love Stoic philosophy, so I read some version of that almost every day.
And yes, that’s Marcus Aurelius behind me.
I’m also currently reading Think and Grow Rich as part of a mastermind group I’m in.
What’s interesting is how much overlap there is between great psychology principles and many of the timeless ideas in those books.
And then I also keep a constantly growing stack of books recommended by people I respect.
I actually ask people all the time:
“What’s the single best book that’s made the biggest impact on your life or business?”
Whenever someone gives me an answer, it goes straight onto my reading list.
Clint Betts: Well, the two biggest for me are Meditations, which you’ve obviously read, and Awareness by Anthony de Mello.
You would love Awareness.
I actually hand copies out all the time. I’ll send you one.
Jill Schulman: That’s amazing.
And honestly, that’s such a great practice for people:
ask smart people what book changed their life.
If it changed their life, there’s probably something there worth exploring.
I’m absolutely adding Awareness to my list.
Clint Betts: Finally, because I want to respect your time, we end every interview the same way.
At CEO.com, we believe the chances one gives are just as important as the chances one takes.
When you hear that, who gave you a chance that helped get you where you are today?
Jill Schulman: I would say Tim Garrett at AbbVie.
He was the one who reached out after I left corporate life and asked if I’d come back as a consultant.
Honestly, I don’t think I would’ve started my business when I did without him.
And sometimes the greatest gift someone can give you is simply believing in you enough that you start believing in yourself too.
Tim did that for me.
He’s just an incredible human being, and I’ll always appreciate him for helping launch this chapter of my life.
Clint Betts: Jill, thank you so much for coming on.
What an incredible career you’ve had, what an incredible leader you are, and what an important message you’re sharing.
It really means a lot to have you here.
Jill Schulman: Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for the book recommendation—I can’t wait to read it.