Sick leave in US and Norway - A learning experience

How are sick leave in differernt countries, and how does this affect us when it comes to work inclution? We are in this episode comparing the rules for sick leave in the US context with the Norwegian context.

To learn more about this, please check out the following video that is available for free online: "Sick leave in the US - an example"

This episode is also available as a video (with subtitles): "Sick leave in US and Norway - A learning experience"

In the studio:

• Steinar Vikholt, Assistant professor, University of South-Eastern Norway
• Alma Melena, MA, California State University - Dominguez Hills
• Annalyn Valdez-Dadia, DrPH, California State University - Dominguez Hills

What is The Socialpod?

A podcast about international social work. Made by SocNet98, an European network of 18 universities that graduates students in social work. In this podcast you can listen to a broad specter of topics that is all connected to social work in an international perspective.

[Automatic captions by Autotekst using OpenAI Whisper V3. May contain recognition errors.]
Welcome to this episode or video depending on where you're watching it as a video as a part of SoWGloW or you may actually listen to it online in Spotify or something like that as a part of the social pod SocNet98's podcast.

In this episode we have with us two of my colleagues and we have been working together on making digital content for the Soglo course.

But we'd also like to do this reflection about what we have learned throughout this experience this week that we have been here in Norway.

And with me

Hello, everyone.

My name is Annalyn Valdez-Dadilla.

I'm an assistant professor at California State University, Dominguez Hills, in the Department of Human Services.

Yeah.

And my name is Ana Milena.

I'm a lecturer at California State University, Dominguez Hills, Human Services Department.

Yeah.

And my name is Steinar Vikholdt and I'm an assistant professor at the University of Southeastern Norway.

So what we're going to talk about is our learning experience throughout this week that you have been here in Norway.

You both work in Los Angeles and you're Americans.

You're used to the American system or the Californian system.

California for the most part.

Yeah, and there is what we have been learning about it.

For me and all my Norwegian colleagues, I think, we usually think about the American system.

So we generalize.

Yes.

But then we've been working so much together and seeing that, and you have been reminding me all the time, yeah, but these are the rules in California.

Yes.

Yeah.

Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

So it's different.

So if you work somewhere, if you get disability, get support anywhere, it's state funded.

So depending on what state you're at, there are different restrictions, eligibility criteria.

So it's hard to understand if you were to move between states what you're eligible for and how much of those benefits you can access.

So it's really very different compared to here in Norway where everything is laid out and you know exactly what you're going to get without any questions, without any stress.

And I think that's really been eye-opening for me.

Maybe because we have a lot of state law.

We have the state law that really is the same one.

It doesn't depend on what county you live in or what city you live in.

They all have the same law.

Yeah, that's not the case.

So the topic that we have been working on and we have been producing a lot of digital content and videos has been on the topic of, we started out pretty broad with the welfare system and the different welfare system we have in Norway and how the welfare state in the United States are.

But then we narrowed it a little bit down towards work inclusion.

And from work inclusion, how to be included in work, we also started talking about just a general experience on how is it to be sick in the United States or California compared to Norway.

And this has been like I try to tell my students also when I teach that every time I teach, I learn a lot of stuff.

and been developing this together with you two.

I've been learning so much about what is special with the Norwegian system.

That meaning the stuff I just take for granted.

And also learning a lot about your system or systems.

And I think one of the biggest thing I've been thinking about is all the different systems.

Like we're talking about what state you live in, but also where you are employed.

Correct.

So that makes a big difference in terms of how much time you can take off if you need maternity leave, if you need sick time or away disability.

You have to earn it in the United States.

You have to work at a place that will offer it.

Some places actually don't offer certain benefits that you would expect here in Norway that is just freely given to you.

So oftentimes when you get hired at a new location,

you ask, that's the next question is, okay, what are my benefits?

What am I given in a year's time?

What if this happens?

So it's not an easy conversation to have, I would say.

It's kind of awkward.

Whereas here in Norway, you just know exactly what you're going to get.

And if you wanted extra, I think that's where you had mentioned you ask for certain things.

But

We don't really ask for that.

I think even though starting to talk about salary during the process of being employed is something that is kind of awkward for us to start talking about.

Because usually you will get the salary that is fair.

What is the average for that kind of position, depending on how many years of training you have at school, if you have a bachelor degree, if you have a master's degree.

So, yeah, never in my life I've been hearing about starting to talk about what kind of benefits should I also get.

You might get those discussions if you go up into the top positions maybe, but usually it's not something that your employer has anything to do with because it's given from the welfare state.

Yeah.

For me as a state employee, it's one of the most sought-after jobs because it's one of the employers who offers most benefits on vacation, SIG, bargaining agreements, so salary movement potentially every three years.

But yes, SIG, definitely it's earned.

Vacation time is earned month by month depending on how long you've been there.

Yeah.

And it's not like you earn a week, it's per hour.

Like if you work 30 hours, you get one hour of vacation time.

So over time, the more you work, the more vacation time you accrue.

And it's not like here where every year you get the same amount.

You roll it over if you don't use it one year.

And I think that's the biggest difference is that people are so stressed in America because they don't take the time off.

to actually just relax and decompress from the work that they've been doing.

They keep rolling it over and then by the time they actually take vacation they're way too stressed.

I think that's why the living here, the situation here has been so eye-opening for me.

In what way?

Well, just me and Alma talking the last couple of days, I told her, I don't feel stressed.

For some reason, I know I have a lot of work to do.

I have a lot of grading that I need to catch up on.

But just being here, I don't feel rushed.

Like you, you're all, Norwegians are very punctual.

I've learned that.

I've learned that there are timetables that are met.

but you don't feel rushed trying to meet them, whereas in the United States, I feel like I'm constantly trying to chase something, and it's hard for me to catch up, and then I feel unproductive, even though I know I am being productive.

Does that make sense?

Definitely.

I often feel that sense of urgency since I get up.

I need to make it by 8.

I hope there's no traffic, and just that sense of urgency all the time.

In terms of calling out sick, I used to be proud of having accumulated so many hours of sick,

But then looking at it from this perspective of that you need to take time off, that you shouldn't feel guilty, that you shouldn't feel that the organization is not gonna go on if you don't go to work.

So that has been interesting to me, that concept.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, because I would say one of the things that have been kind of eye-opening for me during the last couple of last week, it was last week when I realized you said something about that within your workplace, when you run out of sick days, you can ask your colleagues to get their sick days.

When I first started working at Dominguez Hills, the first couple of email messages I got, so it's broadcasted throughout the university, is so-and-so is asking for catastrophic leave.

Would you be willing to donate your hours?

And to me, that was the first time I ever saw it at a university, but I realized, oh yeah, we don't earn enough.

If something catastrophic were to happen, the state is not going to help me.

I have to figure out a way to help myself.

And so that was very eye-opening here and how at every step, if you don't feel capable, you feel supported here.

Whereas, yes, the support is provided in the United States, but you have to look for it.

And you really know how to, you should really know how to navigate the system or know who to ask so you can get to the right places and get what you need.

And that has been very frustrating.

And then when you talked about Nav and how you just click here, you go here and then you click this, it just blew my mind at how simple the system seemed to be here.

You just know what you need.

This is what you have accumulated.

This is what you have, who's accessed it.

It was just amazing.

And that has also been a huge change in the widget system throughout the last 10 years, maybe also the five years, to be way better on trying to figure out how to do this most effectively.

Also throughout NAV, the system where you can actually log on to your own profile,

You can check on your sickness status.

Information is being sent directly from your doctor directly to your employee.

This kind of communication.

That's very surprising to me.

I hate to stop you there, but that was very surprising how your physician here, your general practitioner has control of how much information is being shared with your employer.

Yeah.

And for us, it's always you, the individual, has to do it.

There's some partnerships, so I like that.

And there's a partnership between employee, employer, and physician to get the person back to work and support them along the way.

So I love that.

you still own your own data or your own information.

So I would guess that you can tell your doctor not to send it, but it's no logic in that because in Norway, whenever, if I'm sick and if I need the doctor's approval, for example, after three days, then of course the doctor is taking that decision.

It's not my decision to be sick anymore.

he is the one that takes a look at me and he makes the decision this person is sick he should not be working anymore and then he sends that information to my boss yeah

And it's been very surprising for me.

And then, of course, the other thing, if I just add on that, is that whenever I'm sick, I'm sick as long as I'm sick.

And as long as that doctor says I'm sick, I'm still going to have a job.

I'm still going to get paid.

It just depends on where the money is paid from, if it's from the employee directly or if it's from the state.

So that's the difference, or one big difference, maybe.

Yeah, one big difference.

I think in the United States, if you still feel sick, but the physician assesses you as you look fine.

they will not sign off and say, you need extra time.

Does that make sense?

Like if I still feel sick, but they do a physical assessment on me and they see, well, you can do all of the range of motions that you're supposed to do.

You're able, you're capable to do this.

You should go back to work.

And then you can tell them, I still don't feel right.

They will say, just go back to work.

Yeah.

Right, and I don't feel supported in that way.

I don't know about you, Alma.

I haven't encountered it, but other people that I know who, okay, you can go back to work, they have physical disability, and you can have these accommodations.

So the employer has to take them back because they are protected, but then later on, they can be let go for something else.

So it's a danger when they go out without being healthy yet because then they can lose their job.

And one thing I wrote down in my notes are stress.

You're talking about the calmness in Norway.

But when I'm thinking about this whole concept about stress, if you have a society that is always stressed because the consequences of losing your job or the consequences of being sick are so extremely big.

So you don't have this net that is going to catch you if you fall.

In Norway, that is the Norwegian welfare state.

So you know that even though everything goes bad, there will be someone to catch you.

So that means that you don't have to stress about it.

Yeah, and that has been the biggest surprise.

What's also surprising to me is how work, being placed in a working position is key here.

And it's key in the United States as well.

But there's not very much support to try and get you to be employed if you are unemployed.

um and then this the cycle of i i need to work to get insurance to keep myself healthy but then i need to take time off to stay healthy but i can't take time off because it will cause me to lose my job and so it's very it's a vicious cycle that keeps happening and and that's why there's so much i think stress among americans they don't feel

that they have that opportunity and that's where the guilt comes in, right?

Like I feel guilty for calling in.

I feel guilty for not doing my work because I'm looked down upon as not being the, what they call the breadwinner in America, right?

Providing for my family.

So I have to do all of these things to your detriment.

Yeah, it's funny to say that because I believe in Norwegian culture when early on in the welfare state it was also looked positive upon taking care of your workers.

That workers should have a lot of time off to spend time with their family because that would actually be better for them.

They will be better workers, they will be better mothers and fathers when they can come home, they're not stressed, they are enjoying their work.

So in a lot of our history, you will see that big, big companies, they actually made places for their employees to go on vacation, cheap vacation, just to have time off together with their kids.

So that is considered like something that is positive that you give your employees time to recuperate after a stressful period, for example.

So three weeks of Norwegian summer vacation, that is, in my case, I have to take it.

They say that you need to go.

You have to go.

No, they don't push you.

I think only once in my lifetime at a different university where someone was forced to take vacation because they had too much vacation accumulated.

And that's the only time that you will probably ever be forced to take your vacation.

Because you'll lose it.

Because you'll lose it.

You cannot get it if you leave the company.

You cannot get accumulated vacation.

So you have to use it by a certain time.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Calling out sick, mental health related.

It's one of the biggest stigma that I feel exists.

I cannot get myself to say, I'm calling out, because we have to call, I'm calling out, I'm taking a mental health.

I cannot get myself to do that.

There's a big, big stigma.

And when it comes to that in Norway, your employee has no right to knowing why you're sick.

So even though it's physical or mental, it's the same thing.

But surprisingly, and this is just anecdotal in terms of mine and my husband's experience, sometimes you have to call in sick.

And they're not supposed to ask, why are you calling in sick?

But there are certain individuals, why are you calling?

What's wrong with you?

And then that makes you feel worse for having to take that time off to take care of yourself.

And so that process keeps going.

And I don't know how to change that mindset in America.

We're talking about the different kind of support systems that we have.

Like in Norway, we have NAV, that is the big organization that is taking care of you whenever you're sick, does everything together also with being away with your kids, for example, after you become a mother and a father.

And you see that a lot of you have this mainstream or the services that most people need.

they are very mainstreamed.

They are made easy to access, easy to log on.

They talk together, but also then you have this other system that is for those cases that does not fit the system.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in those cases, you will get a more personal experience.

For me, for example, I don't need a person to talk to if I become sick or stay out of work for a couple of weeks because of my back pains, anything.

I don't need a person to talk to enough.

So then I just fill out all this online stuff.

But when suddenly something stops, you need some extra help, then probably you should then have a person that sees you, that you can talk to.

And I know that the Norwegian system is not perfect in that way, but we've also been interviewing someone that is talking about this and also talking about the time that person has to see you.

What has been your reflection on?

I'm talking about thinking about caseload.

How many cases does a state employer, for example, or just how many people can they handle?

Like in Norway, you do have a certain limit about how many cases you can have, but you know that if you have the time to see the whole individual, the chances are that that person is going back into work sooner.

okay but if you cut down on it because you need to be more effective then you're not you maybe get a person out of the system but they're coming back in so i don't know if you can speak to that there's such type of support at least in my experience yeah definitely uh if i'm out i'm out i just have to reply this is the time i'm going to be off but there's no follow-up no checking in with anybody how are you doing or how can we support you that's not my experience so if you simply lose your job

Who is going to support you in finding a new job?

Is everything personal, like you need to?

It's everything personal.

Yeah, you have to find your own job.

I mean, there are agencies and organizations, if you know them, that you can say, I'm looking for this type of position.

Do you have anything?

but it's you making the effort to do it.

It's not the state or the government saying, you know, you're good at this.

This is your profession.

We have something for you and they can provide you with those resources.

There's no one connecting you in that way, which is very surprising.

If you are receiving unemployment benefits due to being laid off, you have to prove that you've been actively seeking work.

So it's not that they're looking for you or they're supporting you.

You show, okay, this week I called five organizations or submitted 10 resumes.

That's what you need to do.

Yeah.

And I didn't know that, so I'm learning it just by sitting here.

Well, I'm learning too, right?

Because when we first started SoGlo and the project, and we started talking about work inclusion, I had no concept of what that meant.

So my time here, I have a better understanding of what you mean by work inclusion.

by making sure that you are working with the individual to not only one make sure that they are at a job or position that they feel comfortable in and that they like but you're making the effort to connect them to those placements whereas in america i i feel like it's it's hard to figure out who to go to and the work inclusion process here is so um supportive you you really

It's kind of, it's the culture, right?

You want to make sure that people find the job that they want and that they are happy where they're at and that they are comfortable and are able to support the family and themselves in that way.

Whereas in America, you really have to be proactive, not be lazy is the stigma, right?

That, oh, you're being lazy.

You just don't want to go to work.

Yeah.

But half the time, they tell you, once you get out of your bachelor's degree, you're going to be looking for a job for at least three months.

And even then, same thing with like a master's.

So even though you have this education, this knowledge and training, you're not guaranteed a position.

Whereas here, it feels like you are supported within a month you are.

And I think that might be too long, right?

A month's time is a long time not to be at work, that you're able to find something.

I think it all goes down to that the Norwegian state sees that it's very, very important for the states.

They have a lot of benefits of having a lot of people in work, both making and being productive, everything like this, but also that is a mental health thing.

that is something good comes out of getting out of your bed in the morning having a routine meeting other people that you work and interact with that you can talk to and everything like this everything is beneficial to the public health so being out of work is a negative to the public health so that i think it would be one of the reasons why we do see it

We need to stop now.

There's so many things that we can talk about.

But thank you so much for having this conversation.

I'm learning stuff just sitting here.

I have a lot to say, Steiner.

We'll make another episode.

Okay, we will.

That's cute.

Thank you.