People-Pleasing and the Cost of Losing Yourself

Show Notes

What if your kindness isn’t kindness at all, but a survival strategy? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW unpack the often-overlooked link between the trauma response of fawning and people-pleasing by reframing the habit of saying “yes” as a survival mechanism rather than a personality trait. Together, they explore how the fawn response develops as a way to stay safe—appeasing others to avoid danger, conflict, rejection, or loss—and how that pattern can quietly take over our relationships, jobs, and identity. From staying in relationships too long to overextending at work, Christopher and Kenyon connect the dots between fear, early conditioning, and the compulsive need for validation while breaking down the four distinct types of people-pleasers. They also examine the emotional and physical toll of chronic self-abandonment, including resentment, anxiety, and stress held in the body. At its core, this episode is an invitation to recognize the fears that drive most people-pleasing—and to begin the work of reclaiming your boundaries, your voice, and your sense of self. 

To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com. 

Follow Right Here on Instagram: @lumen_therapy_collective

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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.

What is Right Here?

Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.

SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on

mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

SPEAKER_00: And I'm Kenyan
Phillips, LMSW.

Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that

affect our relationships.

No jargon, no judgment.

SPEAKER_01: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you

understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.

I thought today we've we talked
we talk about the four responses

to anxiety all the time.

It comes up.

Also known as the trauma
responses.

Trauma responses, fear
responses, right?

And I think that we And they
are.

We recently had well, we
recently had them referred to as

the four Fs.

Four Fs, right?

Right.

So and that was referred them to
the referred to as the four Fs.

Which is like, oh, we should
continue to use that.

So but we have freeze, uh-huh.

We have fight, flight, freeze,
or fawn.

Fawn.

Right.

And so when we've talked about
we've talked about fight or

flight, and we'll go back in.

And I think what would be good
is to in each take take one

episode and kind of talk about
each one.

Yeah, nice.

But today I want to talk about
fawn because that's come up a

lot.

And I think that's kind of the
most vague out of all four.

So you know, the anxiety
responses are fight or flight,

freeze or fawn.

And we think about when we think
about fawn, we think about you

know, people pleasing is the is
the word that kind of comes to

mind.

And I thought today we could
talk about what people pleasing

is and what that really looks
like and how that affects our

day-to-day life.

And maybe some people are people
pleasers here or think they're

people pleasers.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And so we can kind
of get into that.

And so, you know, I was just
thinking about this like

scenario of like how many times,
or I'm wondering if this has

ever happened for you, like
where you said yes to something

that you didn't want to do, but
you said yes because you just

you couldn't say no.

And you might be exhausted, you
might have been overwhelmed, you

might just not want to do this
thing for somebody, but you end

up saying yes, and now you're
sitting, sitting there just

wondering like why you have like
resentment, why you have anger,

why you have frustration, why
you have more feelings of over

overwhelm, why you have more
like kind of like stress.

Right.

And I was just thinking about
how often like do we all do

this?

We say yes to something we don't
want to, right?

And why we do that.

And so I want to get into that
today and talk about that

pattern that's underneath that
that moment of like saying yes

when we really can just say no
in a in a nice way.

It's not, it doesn't have to be
disappointing or something.

SPEAKER_00: Well, no is a
complete sentence, and right,

you know, I think we forget that
so many people I talk to, this

is a chief complaint.

People pleasing.

It's something they want to
change.

SPEAKER_01: What comes out of
that when you talk to people?

So, like, and I I hear this all
the time too.

So I'm wondering for you like,
what do you hear as they when

they say, Oh, I'm a people
pleaser, I want to change this.

Do they what are some examples
of examples?

SPEAKER_00: Are staying in a
relationship that should have

ended years ago, but they feel
like they can't leave because

they feel badly for the other
person.

That comes up a lot.

Yeah.

People pleasing with regards to
aging parents, that comes up a

lot.

People pleasing on a job
situation, feeling like, oh, I

need to, I need yeah, I'm be my
boss is asking me, or my

supervisor is asking me to do
something to go above and

beyond.

I really don't have the
bandwidth for it, but I'm scared

that I'll lose my job, or I'm
scared that they won't give me a

promotion.

SPEAKER_01: That's a really
important so so that speaks to

some of the issue, I think,
directly of where people

pleasing comes from, right?

This this idea of fawning.

It's this fear and it's the and
and we we do it to avoid

consequence or this idea of
consequence.

Like we we start to maybe
catastrophize some of these

ideas where you start to make
make the the the scenario worse

in our mind.

Right.

And so we end up catastrophizing
this the the consequences,

right?

And then it's like, well, I if I
tell my boss no, what's gonna

happen to me?

You know, we start to think like
we start to spiral on it.

Like, I'm gonna get fired, I'm
not gonna get the hours I want,

that you know, all and then it's
like you know, the you the

spiral starts from there.

SPEAKER_00: Just I'm down to
like homeless.

Exactly.

I've lost my job, I've lost my
home, I've lost you know,

everything.

Oh, yeah.

I can't support my family, but
it happens in relationships.

SPEAKER_01: Tell me, tell me a
little bit about how you've seen

that happen in relationships
too.

SPEAKER_00: It really well, I'm
I am the king of the people

pleasers.

My wife will tell you that you
know, it's her chief probably

gripe with me is that she views
me as somebody who can't say no.

Kind of like that Jim Carrey
movie, Yes Man.

Yeah.

And part of me is really
excited, like I genuinely get

excited about stuff, and I
definitely take on too much out

of a sense of, on the one hand,
out of a sense of enthusiasm,

but there's also this part of me
that I think seeks validation by

saying the classic people
pleaser.

There are these four types that
tell me the tell me the four

types that amateur.

SPEAKER_01: You were talking
about the the fear before, like

the guilt or the consequences,
but now you're saying there's

this other thing about the
validation.

There's validation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: The classic people
pleaser is perfectionist who

seeks validation by people
pleasing.

So the idea, the the mindset is
if I do everything for you

perfectly, you will see my
value, you will like me, you

will honor me, I'll be safe.

The second one that people talk
about is the shadow.

This is sort of like the
wingman, the person, the people

pleaser who's content to like
kind of stand behind somebody

else, usually a more dominant
friend or partner, and just kind

of like quietly acts as the
second in command, also in order

to feel safe.

Then you have the pacifier, then
you have the pacifier, and the

pacifier is somebody who's
really most outwardly

traumatized.

That's somebody who's just
conflict avoidant.

They they are so afraid of any
type of conflict that they'll

just say yes, even when they
want to say no.

SPEAKER_01: That sounds like
that's something that really

stems out of a lot of
experience, maybe even in kind

of in childhood and growing up.

Absolutely.

ACE's adverse childhood
experiences play a huge role.

SPEAKER_00: So I think it's
ACEs, adverse childhood

experiences.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Adverse childhood experiences,
aces usually they've been

statistically linked to mental
health diagnoses, behavioral

problems, all kinds of
disorders, substance use

disorders.

It's the list goes on.

But the final type, according to
Emery Tyrell, is the the

resistor.

The resistor is somebody who's
like really almost can be

conceived of as a passive
aggressive people pleaser.

So that's somebody who will say
who doesn't really outwardly

seem like a people pleaser, but
they just really cannot say no.

However, they don't follow
through on anything.

SPEAKER_01: Oh, so they'll
they'll actually say, Yeah, I'll

do that.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I'll do
that.

Yeah, I'll meet you on Friday,
and you never get a call, you

never get a confirmation, or
they're a no-show that goes to

you.

SPEAKER_01: That one sound
that's that's just uh full of

resentment and and aggression,
really.

That's like you said, passive
aggressive.

It's passive aggressive.

It is.

SPEAKER_00: It's also you see
that also a lot with people who

have symptoms of depression.

You know, it's just like they
when they're when there's so

much overwhelm.

Overwhelm comes with all types
of people pleasing, right?

But you will see that a lot too.

The yeah, resistor.

SPEAKER_01: So so the intention
may be there, right?

With with and that's you know,
they have they're they're well

intended to to follow through,
but they don't.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

Okay.

And I think with all types of
people pleasing that we're

discussing here, the the net net
is a lot of resentment, as you

mentioned earlier, not really
living your own life.

Kind of like the person who's
people pleasing, the people, the

person who's doing the pleasing,
the person who fawns.

And I love in a lot of times
when you'll see the four F's,

you'll see a symbol for each
one, like a fist for fight.

Right.

For fawn, the symbol is usually
a person kneeling before another

person, like a stick figure
kneeling before the other stick

figure.

And it's but yeah, you you'll
the pleaser usually, if not

always, ends up in a position of
feeling resentful, feeling as

though they're not living their
own life, that they're like sort

of, you know, they're they're
starring in, they're the guest

star, they're the co-star in
somebody else's life.

There's a lot of self-care that
gets denied, put to the side.

Because they're caring for the
other person in the

relationship, right?

Always putting other people
first.

Right.

And if you think about it in
like a work environment, the

example you gave earlier,
picture this you're working late

on something, your boss drops
another emergency on your desk

at 9 p.m.

and says, Hey, I need this done
by 6 a.m.

tomorrow.

You're already working on
something else, you haven't

slept, you have a family that
you're supposed to go home to

and care for.

Yeah, yeah.

And you just say yes because
you're afraid, essentially, of

you know, alienating your boss,
losing your job, being regarded

as less than, but you're
actually like you're hanging

yourself out to dry in your
relationship and in and at work.

SPEAKER_01: So you end up your
relationship ends up suffering

because you can't say no at
work.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: And then I assume
that those those tendencies then

spill over into the relationship
where you try to end up making

up for it, uh giving into maybe
or maybe pushing boundaries that

you probably should hold in a
relationship because you're

trying to make up because of the
feelings of guilt.

So the starts this whole cycle
where the fawning and the

resentment and the giving up of
boundaries and the just giving

in is across the board in your
life.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: A typical scenario
will be the partner who's the

you know who's who's at work
spending too much time at work,

does go home and their partner
they think they need to buy

something that they can't really
afford to please the partner.

Right.

Or the partner says, Hey, I'd
really like to go on a vacation.

I know we can't really afford
it, but you know, you've been

working so hard at work and the
kids are you know getting cabin

fever and I'm stressed out, and
wouldn't it be great?

So you end up like getting into
debt because you don't want to

alienate your partner or your
family, and then you're getting

it, as you said, from both
sides.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: This this also we
see this start to have effects

on the body.

So we think about how it has
effects in the in the

relationships with our own mood,
it it contributes to more

anxiety, which we know
contributes directly to

depression, right?

The feelings of guilt they will
turn into feelings of shame.

And that that anger turned
inwards, we know is when we

think about depression, the
simple definition anger turned

inwards.

Right.

We said we can't express that
anger because we're fawning.

We're we're too worried about
setting a boundary.

We end up turning it inwards.

We resent ourselves for not
being able to hold a line, turns

more to depression.

But that starts, we start to
feel that more in the body

physically.

So we might see this as you
know, this kind of idea of like

chronic tension, right?

Yeah, like clenching jaws,
stomach issues, passive

aggressiveness just leaked out
as resentment, this emotional

numbness we start to feel.

We start to feel the aches, the
cramps.

Yeah.

Our body we anadonia.

Yeah, our body starts to keep
our our body like we feel it.

SPEAKER_00: We feel it
everywhere.

Totally.

And part of it is what you were
talking about last week, you

know, with cortisol levels going
up, because people pleasing

causes stress, it causes
anxiety.

And so when our cortisol levels
go up, we don't sleep well, we

get irritable, uh, our
digestion, you know, goes down,

we gain weight.

Yeah, it's it's not a good look.

SPEAKER_01: No, no, it's it's
this idea of like our bodies are

keeping keeping the tab even
when even though our mouth keeps

saying yes.

Yeah.

Right.

So it's like we have this this
it and it's a knee-jerk

reaction.

Remember, fight, flight, freeze,
or fawn are all reactions,

they're all immediate reactions
to anxiety, to this primal fear

that we have instead of
response.

And we want and we want to start
working towards responding, not

reacting.

Right.

But that's our body, something's
gotta give at some point.

So like right, we have to pay
somewhere.

And and it seems like physically
we we do that through through

cortisol.

SPEAKER_00: For sure.

And then that can lead to like
heart problems and heart

attacks, even.

And cancer has been linked to
certain types of cancers have

been linked to high cortisol
levels, high cortisol and

stress, right?

Exactly.

But uh you're touching on
something interesting.

There it is a reaction, it's not
a response, it's a reaction

because usually people pleasers
at some along the line of their

development learned that it was
unsafe to say no.

Correct.

That saying no sometime somehow
is dangerous.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think I
think when we when we look at

whatever environment we grew up
in, or maybe it was in school,

like we we start to think about
where those moments were that it

was unsafe for us and what that
looked like.

That could be as and it doesn't
have to be really abstract.

It can be as simple as being
bullied, it can be just shutting

being shut down when we talked
about something, right?

Wanting to express a feeling and
not having that acknowledged,

right?

And and people don't have to go
overboard to say, oh my god,

tell me more about your
feelings.

We it can be just as simple as
hey, you seem really upset right

now.

Just paying attention.

And and if that wasn't done or
it was minimized or dismissed as

like, don't feel that way, or
that's not important.

Right.

And we talked about that when we
were talking about like, you

know, I think with with men and
kind of how they respond to

feelings, we respond to
feelings, right?

And as men, as men, and how
often, and I I catch myself

doing this with my with my son a
lot, like especially in sports

and in other moments.

I'm like, come on, just get up.

It's fine, just get up.

Right, you'll be okay.

Shake it off, just just rub,
rub, rub it, it'll be fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, just pour some water on
it, be okay.

Right.

And and no, like sometimes you
it it's nice, yeah.

That dude, that looks like it
really hurt.

Like that sucks.

Still gotta get up.

Right.

But that looks like so so not
dismissing things.

No, you know, and and and you're
right, it's it is it is a direct

result of of not having those
things acknowledged as a kid.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly.

And I mean I grew up in a home
with no boundaries.

It was if the few times I
experimented with holding a

boundary with my parents, you
know, as a child, I was shut

down real fast.

Right.

And so what I learned was I
don't get to have boundaries.

And part of not having
boundaries means you don't get

to say no.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, even if you,
even if you want to, because

it's just not, it's just not
right.

It's not gonna be respected, or
you're shut down right away.

SPEAKER_00: And as a child, you
often, you know, because a lot

of us learned this in childhood,
your fears are unf they're not

really reasonable.

Right.

You have a sense that, oh, I'm
never gonna be loved.

You know, my parents are not
gonna love me.

They're gonna, they're not gonna
feed me anymore.

They're gonna, you know, I'm not
gonna have a place to to stay.

SPEAKER_01: Kids are very black
and white in the way you think

they haven't they haven't
established that kind of

understanding of of gray area
and nuance.

Right.

Right.

So that's why it's like kids are
rigid for a reason.

It's okay.

That's how kids, that's how we
develop.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: But but yeah, that's
so you're right.

That all of a sudden that fear
becomes if if I if I set a

boundary here, not knowing that
it's a boundary, if I if I push

back on this and I get shut
down, then my my parents don't

love me or they're going to
like, I don't know, leave me

outside.

Right.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

I definitely had really kind of
outsized fears as a kid.

And that the other I think the
other problem with people

pleasing is that society rewards
it.

People like it.

You know, like there's a saying
in recovery when we stop people

pleasing, people stop being
pleased.

And many of us can't deal with
that, with the idea of being

displeasing to others.

Of course.

SPEAKER_01: Having somebody
disappoint- because we we we

look at it as disappointment.

Right.

Somebody's disappointed in me,
then I'm not good enough.

It starts that shame cycle.

I'm I'm a mistake, I'm bad, I'm
broken, I'm not good enough.

Because somebody, somebody in
this world of millions and or

billions and billions of people
might be upset with me for a few

minutes.

SPEAKER_00: And yeah, and and in
again, a fear of people being

angry with us too.

It's one thing, you know,
disappointment is definitely

scary.

And and anger, like the idea
that, oh, if I say no,

somebody's gonna actually attack
me physically.

You know, I think some people
have that.

SPEAKER_01: Because of course,
that's physically or

emotionally, like when we think
about how do we handle when

other people are angry with us,
how do we handle when other

people are disappointed with us?

So we think about fawning and
the people pleasing and

constantly having to give in and
and push the boundaries past

what we're comfortable with.

Right.

It's it's really this response
too to not not being able to

handle or being worried about
how we will handle somebody

being angry, upset,
disappointed, you know, feeling

that we're less than.

Right.

SPEAKER_00: You run into this
with anybody who's who's kind of

like chronically self-abandoned.

We stop if we identify with that
behavior.

We we stop even knowing what we
want, what we like, who we are.

The identity just gets
completely subverted.

I'm wondering what happens when
we lose a sense of self.

When we lose a sense of self,
often we end up in relationships

with abusive, narcissistic
partners.

That doesn't have to be a
romantic relationship alone.

It can also be a working
relationship.

We often end up working for with
people who are abusive,

narcissistic, take up all the
air in the room.

And it also looks like, as you
pointed to earlier, a decline in

health.

Yeah.

It's something you see a lot in
Al-Anon, 12-step recovery.

Al-Anon is a program for it was
designed originally as like a

family for the friends and
family of alcoholics.

And the one through line you'll
usually find in any kind of

Al-Anon meeting is that people
who come to those meetings have

real trouble living their own
lives, keeping the focus on

themselves.

It's much easier for them to
fall into caretaking for another

person.

SPEAKER_01: So people pleasing
can look like caretaking

sometimes.

Absolutely.

There's there's a line though.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: There's a because so
and and I think that that's an

important distinction here too,
is that there is a difference

between somebody being helpful
and saying yes because they help

and they care and they care for,
and somebody who's people

pleasing.

SPEAKER_00: I would call that
the difference between

absolutely.

And I would I would point to
that even more granularly as the

difference between caretaking
and caregiving.

Care giving is being helpful.

Cared giving is hey, I'm giving
of myself because I want to and

because it's appropriate.

Right.

Caretaking we take something
from the person we're supposedly

caring for.

Caretaking is often often looks
like codependency.

Dominance.

Like sort of like a very genteel
form of asserting dominance over

somebody else, infantilizing.

SPEAKER_01: It's main, it's
almost like maintenance.

I don't think of um you don't
call the person who watches a

vacation house a caregiver, you
call them a caretaker.

Right.

And if we if we look at it that
way, even separated, like like

the just where where else do we
use that word?

Totally.

We're just thinking of that like
the yeah, there's the caretaker

for the property.

Yeah, there's not a caregiver
for the property.

Well, that would be really nice.

It would be nice.

It would be maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Maybe for the
landscape architecture and

landscape design.

Uh but yeah, caretaking is, and
that's a term that's used a lot

with regards to codependency and
alanonic family systems,

alcoholic family systems,
caretaking.

There's there's a real negative
connotation to it.

And I think people pleasing
falls under that category.

Whereas there can be like a lot
of overlap in that Venn diagram.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

So we have a loss of self, which
I also want to highlight, and we

can we'll talk more about in in
depth in another episode.

But you know, when we start
thinking about addiction and

depression and other mental
health issues, there's there's a

a lot of evidence that looks at,
you know, when we lose our sense

of self and our sense of
purpose, that is.

When addiction kind of comes
out, that is when depression and

these other mental health issues
really flourish.

Absolutely.

Because that becomes our our
sense of self.

That becomes the thing that
defines us.

And then there's all sorts of
other, like other people define

us that way.

And it's very easy, right, to be
defined that way with this

maladaptive behaviors.

So losing our sense of self
opens the door for other

maladaptive identities.

Absolutely.

Right.

I become, I become the person
that, you know, can't set a

limit.

I it's anything that's kind of
shame-driven.

Totally.

And I think that's a lot of what
we see, you know, with addiction

and addiction across the board,
not just drugs and alcohol, but

you know, sex addiction, porn,
shopping, gambling, all of it.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

Any kind of maladaptive behavior
that becomes an identity basis.

You see it, I you know, in terms
of identity formation, you see

it in kids.

You know, like it's always easy,
the stereotype is, and I think

there's some truth, there's some
truth to it.

If you're not sure what your
identity is in school, you can

always hang out with the
stoners, right?

Because they'll accept you.

It's the equalizer.

And you're you'll be defined by
that behavior.

Oh, you're somebody who uses
drugs.

There's a certain cachet that's
like associated with that, a

certain rebelliousness, style,
um, devil may care attitude that

seems sexy to young people.

Right.

SPEAKER_01: The substance abuse,
it's it is, it's the great

equalizer.

Right?

You can always be accepted
there.

They that anybody because you
can have all all sorts of

different backgrounds, but if
you come together around drugs,

around this maladaptic behavior.

Yeah.

Like the yeah, the potheads, the
stoners, they'll they'll take

anybody in.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

Yeah.

And you see it in bars.

You see it like the bars become
this great equalizer.

In a way, it's kind of
beautiful, you know.

Like you think about the book or
the movie Barfly.

There's there's a poetry to it.

Bukowski would talk about it a
lot too in his writing.

There, there is there's a
camaraderie for those with an

alcohol use disorder.

It's also social.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

Yeah, there, as you said,
there's there's something

equalizing.

It it cuts across class
barriers, race.

We're not others.

SPEAKER_01: All of a sudden
we're fitting in.

So those things that trigger
fight, flight, freeze, or fawn,

those when we think about our
primal response, the minute we

feel other, the minute we're
outcast, the minute we're

outside of the circle or the
tribe or the family or society,

the pack, the herd.

Those are those are our
responses.

Those are going to be the four
responses, no matter what, one

of the four, or both.

I don't know if we can have we
can have combinations of it.

But when we feel othered, that
is, that is what happens.

Right.

And so that that's yeah, so at
uh your example of like the you

know, the substance use or being
in a bar even, or just or around

that, you're you suddenly have a
place, and it's a maladaptive

place, and it's not healthy, and
there's all these other issues,

but there is there is on the on
the flip side of that something

productive out of it.

SPEAKER_00: There is, there's
something uh affirming about it.

And I think about like dead
shows, for example, yeah, going

on tour, something you know
about.

There is, yeah, I mean, people
can laugh at it and say, oh,

it's a bunch of people tripping,
and it, you know, it's it's

negative, it's maladaptive.

I know so many people who derive
not only a sense of identity,

but a sense of community from
going on tour.

Can you describe what that that
means?

SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, well, so
I actually never went on tour,

but all the people that talk
about about this, and I was just

thinking as you were talking,
when when when Bob Weir died

recently, who was in the
Grateful Dead.

Yes.

I was people just need to know
that.

Right, right, right, right.

But when when he died recently,
I was listening to Sirius XM,

the Grateful Dead channel, and
there is there is such a

community of you know, 70, 80
years of or 80-year-olds, like

from 80 people 80 years old and
younger, all talking about and

and calling in and coming
together and talking all about

how Mourning the Lost Mourning
the Lost, but feeling part of

this community.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting
on that on that channel on

Sirius, they they have like a
regular call-in, like in the

mornings.

I think people call in just
share stories.

And it is, it's you get people
who are young and people who are

older, and just they they it's
all similar and they all felt

part of.

I saw this when I was in my in
college, we went to go see fish.

It was the same thing.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: You know, it was the
same kind of like in the parking

lots, everybody hanging out, and
there was this sense of

community, and people just
touring as groups across the

country to go and follow these
bands, but really became a

bigger family of places where
they were accepted where they

probably weren't other places.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_01: You know, they
outcast small towns, whatever it

might have been, yeah.

They were they felt other
everywhere else, right, and had

this sense of community and
connection here in that in that

spot.

SPEAKER_00: Totally.

And even when I see like a hot
topic in the mall, I don't roll

my eyes because it's like, oh,
that warms my heart.

This is giving me, yeah, it's
like, oh, okay.

Because traditionally, the hot
topic kids, you know, and I'm

talking about like goth kids, I
guess, you know, who are punk or

whatever, who were who dressed
in a way that was definitely

considered other, you know, have
a place to gather and buy their

their leather and their pleather
and their spikes and the and

their eyeliner.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

I was just, I was at uh my best
friend and I went to go see Nine

Inch Nails last year, last
February.

Amazing.

I've seen them a lot.

Incredible.

We've gone, yeah, we've gone a
bunch.

And this was like, we were like,
okay, we're getting old now, we

should go.

Trent's getting old now, we
should go.

Right.

And it was great.

Like, you know, I just going
there, I refrained from wearing

eyeliner, and I was I was going
to because I felt like it was,

it would have been like
appropriate.

But it was this whole moment
where I was, I just felt like

there was this community even
there, and like this oh, big

time, heavy, yeah, kind of
industrial.

I mean, that just so loud and
intense.

And but the community there, and
you could see it.

There were people, there were
still there were like teenagers

there, which I was like, oh,
this is awesome.

Like this music is carrying on
to like young kids.

But then there were a bunch of
people who were like in their

60s all the way, you know,
through through, you know, and I

was looking around looking for
other people my age, like in

their mid 40s, going, okay, like
let me find, let me find my

group.

It was everybody, yeah.

And it was so chill, it was like
intense for the music, and

people were like dancing, we
were all like, you know,

throwing ourselves around, but
there was such a respect and a

in a sense of community that
that even these people who were

typically outcasts, right?

And all the the you know, that
that kind of vibe, they all came

together.

Yeah.

There was there was a warmth and
a real kind of like there was

just a different feeling to it.

SPEAKER_00: Totally.

No, it's it's it's spectacular
to be able to like participate

in that and witness it.

And even if it is in your
community, to see, oh wow.

A lot of people who, as you
point out, yeah, or have been

othered, have that experience,
yeah, are not having that

experience here within this
context.

SPEAKER_01: It's interesting too
when we think about this, when

we think about authenticity, and
this is just going through my

mind as we're talking, how we
feel othered or about like what

we feel on the inside versus
what we show on the outside.

Ooh, totally.

And so I'm just thinking about
like, so that that group of

people, like at a nine age now
show, like the all dressed in

black and eyeliner and spikes
and everything.

I was like, God, that felt that
something resonated with me

internally.

I don't dress that way, I don't
present that way.

I don't really, that's if you
saw me walking down the street,

that's typically that's not me.

I'm not but on the inside, I'm
like, oh, that there's there's a

piece of it that resonates.

It's not all of me, but there
was a piece of that that really

resonated.

And I was like, hey, this is
really, this is really something

that's important and
interesting.

And I'm just thinking about
that, like how what we show on

the outside, and how often does
that align with what's on the

inside?

And I think that kind of that
that goes back to this idea of

fawning.

What we present to people and
what we tell people we're going

to do, what we what we give into
doing versus what we feel on the

inside and what we want on the
inside.

When we're inauthentic, we start
to experience resentment and

depression and anger and
anxiety.

Right.

And and I think it really I I do
believe strongly in in being

genuine.

We have to, we have to have our
insides match our outsides.

SPEAKER_00: You always say that
as sort of the measure of mental

health.

How you know how how well are
we?

Are we are the insides and
outsides matching?

I also love that we contain
multitudes.

We do have you know different
aspects to us.

There's a part of you that plays
banjo, there's a part of you

that you know sends me Tony
Trishka albums, right?

There's a part of you that goes
to Nine Inch Nails concerts,

there's a part of you that
listens to Digital Underground's

first album.

That's right.

Obsessively.

There's and and you dress, you
know, you're wearing

Birkenstocks right now.

It's I think it's fascinating to
consider identity within the,

you know, within that frame,
that framework.

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: And how you talked
before about pushing back on

boundaries or having no
boundaries, right?

The the in that space, my
experience of having not being

allowed to have boundaries.

And I think that that this
happens in that space.

Where do you express yourself?

How can you express yourself?

Can you express yourself safely?

When we think about ourselves as
parents and and to people

listening, if you are a parent,
like that idea of like how well

do you set the stage for your
kids or other people in your

life, even if it's not
parenting, how well do you set

the stage and and create a space
for others to express

themselves?

SPEAKER_00: Ooh, that's so good.

Yeah.

I think that's what a lot that's
a lot, yeah.

As a parent, absolutely.

And you know, Soren, my son, has
he has blue hair and he just

pierced both of his ears, and he
has a very specific way of

dressing.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And I think he looks
great.

I love it.

It's very much my style.

Now, if he wanted to dress like
a preppy, I probably wouldn't be

as stoked, but I would
absolutely it would, it's my I

see it as my job to encourage
it.

Like whatever he's into,
whatever he feels like is an

expression of his identity, I
don't want to stand in the way

of that.

SPEAKER_01: No.

SPEAKER_00: Just like I don't
want to stand in the way of my

clients, you know, who are
expressing their identity or

experimenting with their
identity.

SPEAKER_01: No, we we are
responsible for our our our own

in in that sense.

And when I always this this idea
is like when when your side of

the street is a hundred percent
spotless, then you can start

looking at the at other people's
side of the street.

Right.

But until until you're perfect,
yeah, you can't you can't pass

judgment on somebody else's side
of the street.

Ooh, I love that.

And that's uh yeah.

Between that and and having your
insides match your outsides,

that's uh but the thing is the
idea is here we'll we'll never

reach perfection.

We've talked about this in our
per in talking about

perfectionism.

We'll we never actually get to
that point.

So really focus on on on being
authentic and and and working on

yourselves.

And that that gives space for
your your kid to have blue hair,

and you know, and and he hey, he
once in a while he can dress

preppy if he wants.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he also likes
to wear suits.

Love it, and yeah, it's it's and
I'm just my job again is to just

be like, yeah, if you love it,
do it, try it out, you know, as

long as you're not hurting
anybody.

That's right.

It's very 60s, it's very like
just as long as you don't hurt

anybody.

But I love that.

And then in terms of how to if
we find ourselves as people

pleasers really uncomfortable,
getting to the point where our

people pleasing is getting in
the way of our lives, creates

loneliness, happiness in our
loneliness.

Yeah, but how do we like combat
it?

SPEAKER_01: How do we deal with
it?

So one of the things, and you
mentioned this before, and you

were shut down, not by me, but
you were shut down as a kid,

pushing back on boundaries,
yeah, express experimenting with

boundaries, experiment, yeah.

And that is that is all we can
do in life, all treatment,

therapy, mental health treatment
in life, outside of treatment,

it's all collecting evidence.

Yeah, we constantly have to
collect new evidence that

supports an idea.

Right?

We spend so much time collecting
bad evidence.

Oh, this is why I'm awful, this
is why this doesn't work.

Right.

Let's start looking at it,
feeding into a cognitive

distortion.

Exactly.

Let's look at collecting some
new evidence and evidence that

might support a different
hypothesis, such as saying no

won't kill me.

Saying no won't kill you.

The person might be upset, but
if if somebody's upset with us,

it doesn't mean they hate us.

And it certainly doesn't mean
that we're a bad person.

We're not a bad human being
because somebody's upset with

us.

SPEAKER_00: Yes.

That's so important.

Yeah.

And somebody isn't gonna stop
loving us or being our friend or

fire us because we say no or
because we, you know, don't give

them what they want.

SPEAKER_01: And it and I think
it's important to to kind of

highlight how we say no.

If you burn the bridges and blow
up the entire place because

you're saying no, because it's
the only way you've ever known,

right, that's going to create a
problem.

Yeah.

So if you're going to push back
on a boundary and try to collect

new evidence and and say no and
express yourself, do it in a way

that is respectful and where it
can invite a conversation.

Because if you think about this,
it we see this a lot in like

couples work, where there's
there's so much breakdown in

communication, and all of a
sudden, now if I say no, if if

I'm blowing it up and you always
do this, and and start doing the

whole blaming thing and make it
in aggression aggressive, that's

gonna shut down the other
person's gonna come back at me.

Right.

And that can be with a boss,
that can be on the street, that

can be anywhere.

If I say no in a way that's,
hey, I don't like this, I would

like it this way, that opens up
the door for a conversation from

the other person.

They they can be curious then.

They can say, Okay, well, I like
it this way.

Now you still might not agree,
you still might have two

different ideas about what you
want, but it but it opens the

door to say, okay, well, now
let's come to some kind of space

in the middle.

SPEAKER_02: Right.

SPEAKER_01: Or maybe this time I
get a little bit more, and maybe

next time you get a little bit
more.

Right.

You you start to you start to
actually have a relationship, a

working relationship where
there's a give and take versus

just a no F you, you never give
me this, or I'm not, I don't

care what you want.

Right.

We don't we don't want to shut
the door on anything.

Right.

So we want to set the stage for
there to be an open

conversation, some almost like a
negotiation, yeah, or some kind

of agreement in the middle.

Totally.

Right.

So so we we push back on that.

We have to, we have to try and
collect new evidence, set

boundaries.

I'm wondering other thoughts
about how to push back or or how

to kind of change some of the
the fawning behavior.

SPEAKER_00: The fawning behavior
of the people pleasing.

I think like starting almost the
way you would you would maybe

experiment with exposure
therapies, start s with small

no's, you can do like relatively
safe people.

Yeah.

People who you feel like, okay,
I could experiment with saying

no.

You, for example, I mean, we're
we work closely together, we

talk all the time.

I know that I can say if if I
know that I would hope that

you'd feel like, hey, if you
were uh not up for recording a

podcast on a Tuesday because you
were sick or you were just

totally overwhelmed, you could
say like, hey, I can't do it

today.

And you could do it at the last
minute, and I wouldn't be

pissed.

Right.

I wouldn't per berate you.

That's but you know, identify
who those people are in your

life who you who feel safe to
experiment with.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

I was just thinking, don't do it
with another people pleaser

though.

Oh, because it's just a cycle of
like, no, it's okay.

Are you sure?

I'm so sorry.

No, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, you're
both seething.

Yeah, you're so like God.

SPEAKER_01: I wish he would have
just told me it's not okay.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely.

But that's one way to do it, I
think, is is to, you know, like

I have we we say, you know,
don't go to the hardware store

for oranges.

There are certain people I know
are not safe to say no to, or

for me to experiment with any
sort of new behavior, of course,

or behavioral modification.

But they I also, you know, I
have those hopefully everybody

has at least one person that
they can feel safe with.

SPEAKER_01: If they don't, they
can reach out.

I'll uh you and I will both
certainly help people practice

that.

Like just reach out, I'll talk
with you about it.

Yeah.

The other thing I want to
highlight too is learning to

tolerate guilt.

Guilt, yes, guilt is the
withdrawal symptom of setting a

boundary.

When we let go, when we start
pushing back on fawning, fight

or flight and freeze two, but we
when we start pushing back on

fawning, the withdrawal symptom
is guilt.

We're gonna we're gonna such a
good point.

SPEAKER_00: We're gonna feel
really bad.

Anytime we stand up for
ourselves, if we're not used to

doing that, yeah, we're gonna
feel guilty.

And that for me, as a
struggling, you know, reforming

people pleaser and codependent,
I know that that's actually a

sign that I'm doing that I'm
taking care of myself.

Right.

When I start feeling guilty.

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So guilt, yeah,
guilt being it's the withdrawal

symptom of people pleasing.

And it doesn't mean that you did
something wrong, it means that

you did something new.

Nice, it's not, it's not right
or wrong.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And guilt, remember,
the difference between guilt and

shame is guilt is I made a
mistake, and shame is I am a

mistake.

Right.

And then so when we feel that
guilt, it's not that we did

something wrong, it's that we're
doing something new.

And it feels weird, it feels
scary, it feels, it feels so

it's okay.

We're good, and and the only way
to learn how to tolerate

feelings is to sit in them for a
bit.

Yeah, stop, recognize them, say,
Hey, I'm feeling guilty right

now.

Right.

Say, tell yourself I don't need
to feel guilty right now.

I did something new, I did
something, I'm pushing back on

this.

Yeah, I can sit with this, and
it gets better over time, it

diminishes each time we do it.

SPEAKER_00: As we get more
comfortable with it.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And we can, I think, reframe and
understand actually, yeah.

I don't need to feel guilty.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

The other the other point I want
to make as we as we kind of

close our our conversation about
people pleasing is that we need

to pick repair over perfection.

We talked about perfection
before.

So this is this is the idea that
if you start to set boundaries

and you start to say no and it
fails, and you screw it up, or

something bad happens, or people
somebody gets upset, that's

okay.

You might screw it up, you might
fail at it.

It might look really awkward,
you might fumble through it, and

then you might people please to
make up for it.

That's okay.

It doesn't have to be perfect.

It's it's the the the goal here
isn't perfection, it's learning

assertiveness.

It's learning how to step up and
actually just be more honest

about what we're feeling.

Our feelings are complicated,
our feelings shift.

It's it's it's they're organic,
so they're not going to be the

same every time.

That's why perfectionism doesn't
work here.

It it's just this idea of like,
I just I just need to work on

saying what I feel right now.

And and then if you mess up and
make a mistake with it, call it

out.

Hey, you know what?

I that was really awkward.

What I tried to say here was yes
this dot dot dot.

Yes, right, and fill in the
blank.

Or what I meant was this.

I'm working on this.

There's no shame in saying,
like, yeah, I'm really working

on trying to set some new
boundaries with myself because I

don't want to be a doormat
anymore.

Right.

SPEAKER_00: I love that.

Yeah, how could you get if if I
care about somebody and they say

that to me, how can I not
support them?

Right?

That would be you'd be rude,
right?

SPEAKER_01: Be other things, but
like, yeah, if somebody comes up

to me like, oh, I'm working on
this, like, dude, try it out.

Yeah, I'll I'm like I said
before, and I know you and I are

both here for that.

Yeah, and I think in a in our
practice, as if if people want

to try that too, they they you
know, right hey, goss, I'm

having a hard time with people
pleasing.

I I I give in a lot and I feel
really guilty and shameful over

it.

Right.

We work through it.

It's not that's not a lifetime
of of therapy.

That's working through some
really set specific approaches.

SPEAKER_00: I love that.

And then finally, like before we
say yes, maybe go through a list

of criteria.

If I say yes to something, what
you know what for you, what does

it take for you to say yes?

SPEAKER_01: Right.

SPEAKER_00: What's a yes?

For me, like yeah, personally.

SPEAKER_01: I have to think
about what what it what I need

to give.

So there's some people I just
say yes to because I know I also

know those people aren't going
to ask things of me that like

they're aware of me.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So I I know that
they're not going to take

advantage of if you give them an
inch, they're not gonna take a

mile.

Right.

Okay.

So but I but I Step back with
before I say yes, I I often have

to think through okay, how is
this going to play out?

Do I have enough energy?

Do I have enough bandwidth to
handle this?

Nice.

Do can I afford it?

Also, can I give this person
what they're asking for?

Are they asking for too much?

Are they asking for something
that's out, you know, that's

extraordinary?

Am I the person for this?

Sometimes I don't say yes
because I'm just not the right

person for that thing.

Yeah.

I find this in in in in
treatment.

Like as a as a therapist, if
somebody calls me, we we do a

consultation first because we
need to make sure we are the

right person for the person
calling and that they're the

right person for us as a
therapist.

I think there's a lot of people
who will just be like, yeah, I

can deal with it all.

Like I feel confident I can deal
with most issues that are that

somebody comes to treatment
with.

But this is, I think that's
important to say, am I the right

person for this?

Right.

You have to be aware of again
what's on the inside in what you

are capable of.

SPEAKER_00: Those are really
helpful criteria.

Thanks for listening to Lumen.

If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage

you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think

would appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon
with another conversation

designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.

I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.

And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.

Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.

Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and

is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.

If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact

Local Emergency Services or a
trusted mental health

professional.